Oral History Interview with Jesse Crenshaw

KATE FOSL: This is an interview with Jesse Crenshaw, Lexington, Kentucky, February 9, 2001, with Kate Fosl.

FOSL: Okay, why don't you just start by giving me a little, sort of personal background, your birth date, where you were born, where you grew up.

JESSE CRENSHAW: I was born in Metcalfe County, Kentucky, in 1946, and lived and worked on a farm for my young adult part of my life. And went to school in Glasgow, Kentucky for high school. Went to Kentucky State University and went to the University of Kentucky's College of Law.

FOSL: Would you mind telling me a little bit about your family, were your roots and generations in Kentucky?

CRENSHAW: To the best of my knowledge, all of my family have been from Kentucky. [Interruption] This is my brother, Braxton. [Interruption -- Braxton] There are other family members, I am sure, that lived outside of Kentucky. My father lived in Detroit, Michigan most of his life, but in terms of where everyone was from; they were from the Metcalfe County, Barren County area.

FOSL: Okay, and what about . . . you say you have one brother, did you have other siblings?

CRENSHAW: There were four of us. I have three brothers.

FOSL: What about your religious background? Were you raised in the church?

CRENSHAW: I'm a Baptist.

FOSL: You're a Baptist, still?

CRENSHAW: Yes, ma'am.

FOSL: And then what about your--just a little more detail on your family history--are you married? Did you marry?

CRENSHAW: I've been divorced for several years. I was married, yes.

FOSL: Children?

CRENSHAW: No children.

FOSL: Can you just talk about some of that material that you mention that day in the Civil Rights Symposium with regard to your experience of growing up in a segregated town?

CRENSHAW: I can't remember word for word what we were talking about that date because that has been what, two years ago or so, a year and a half . . .

FOSL: A year, yeah.

CRENSHAW: But, at least when I was growing up in the elementary school that I attended was three miles from where I lived. The nearest elementary school was one mile from where I lived. The nearest elementary school was segregated and all white. The elementary school that I attended was, as I say, three miles away thus three times as far from where I lived than where the nearest school was--and it was segregated and all black. The nearest high school was three miles away and was segregated and all white; and the high school that I attended was in Glasgow, Kentucky, and twenty miles away, one way, and segregated. And we were bused twenty miles one way and twenty miles back for forty miles round trip, five days a week, to go to school when the nearest high school was three miles away.

FOSL: And what about any other incidents that you could recall that were sort of trigger incidents with regard to like differential treatment based on color when you were a very young person, a child?

CRENSHAW: Well, there were many of those. I can remember going to Glasgow, Kentucky, and the Plaza Theatre, it was named, and if you wanted to go to the movies, in fact, it was just the practice that all blacks went to the balcony and never were to go down to the lower level. And I can remember, I don't know how many years of going up and not being able to go down, until at some point -- and I don't remember the year -- when it was acceptable for blacks to go to the down level and I do not remember a movie being . . .playing; but I remember being able to go in on the ground level and see it for the first time as opposed to having never being on the lower level as best as I remember now. And it's been so many years that it's hard for me to remember, but I can just remember the difference in the way that the auditorium looked on the ground level as opposed to parts of the auditorium that you've never been able to see while you are on the second level. There were segregated places where you went to get food or to get a . . . lunch or whatever, where you were allowed to go in -- well, there were places I can remember vaguely -- having to go to a side door or a side window to pick up your food. I can also remember other places where you could go in to pick up the food but you had to leave. There was not a go-in, sit-down, have the meal as other customers were doing inside the restaurant.

FOSL: Well, pardon my unfamiliarity with that area of Kentucky, but was it a significant African-American population? I mean, were there alternatives to that in the black community, in other words?

CRENSHAW: Well, you've asked two questions. One, whether there was a large black population compared to what I think you're asking, no, it was a small black population and this is going by a long, long time ago. Some of this is vague in my memory, but seemingly around 1964, around that time, there might have been fifteen hundred or two thousand blacks in Glasgow, Kentucky. Now, Glasgow would have had, maybe, at most eight thousand, ten thousand population total and probably fifteen hundred or less in terms of black population. Now that's where I attended high school but you also have to keep in mind that a large part of my growing up was on a farm in Metcalfe County, half of the farm in Metcalfe, half of it in Barren County. And if you're looking at the number of blacks within the various farming area, then you are talking about a much smaller ratio probably of blacks to whites. But even there, everybody is so spread out that it's not like you've got some kind of great population influx where people . . . But anyway, in terms of just the overall Glasgow surrounding area, you're not talking about a fifty-fifty number of people or anything like that.

FOSL: What did you all raise by the way?

CRENSHAW: We raised tobacco, corn, uh, we had cattle, we had cows that were milked. We had all kinds of things that my grandfather sold to various stores and markets. He sold Kentucky Wonder Beans, ( ) corn, tomatoes, lettuce, butterbeans . . .

FOSL: How many acres?

CRENSHAW: One hundred and sixty-eight acres. Half of it approximately in Metcalfe and the other half in Barren County. They were right on the Metcalfe County/Barren County line and half of it was in one and half was in the other. He had a four-acre and thirty-nine hundreds tobacco base at the time, it was acreage then rather than poundage. And for a hundred and sixty-eight acres, that was considered a very large tobacco base for that small amount of land.

FOSL: Is that land still in your family?

CRENSHAW: No, it's not. It's still there and still a farm but my father and my aunt sold the farm some time, some years after my grandfather's death.

FOSL: First of all, would you say that . . . would you consider your family like race men and race women? And were there a lot of, like, black newspapers and was it a politically-conscious kind of upbringing, would you say?

CRENSHAW: Well now you've asked at least more than one question. It's sort of separate there. When you use the word race men, what are you asking?

FOSL: Well, that's just a phrase that some people have used to me in terms of kind of a race man, indicating often like very well read with the black press and just like a kind of consciousness in that generation. Like, I guess, like your parents' generation that was just sort of not, maybe not so actively opposing segregation but teaching a real race consciousness to their children. And I noticed in a lot of interviews that really did come up about reading the Crisis, like the Crisis might have been lying around the house or that sort of thing.

CRENSHAW: Now you are talking about more than one thing if you, if you . . . haven't explained this to you. My mother and my father lived on the part of the land that was in Barren County and my grandparents lived on the part of the land that was in Metcalfe County. My father decided to sell or to allow my grandfather to buy the portion that was in Barren County. My mother was an elementary school teacher and they, and I, lived there a short period of time. My father had previously, prior, and many years before to my understanding, worked in Detroit, Michigan, in the automobile industry. At some point in time, he decided that he no longer wanted to farm and he decided that he was going back to Michigan to work for the automobile industry. My mother and my brothers were, for a very short period of time, lived in Michigan; and I suppose I was there for a year. I remember being there but not for very long. And then I went back and lived in Kentucky with my grandparents. At some later point in time, my mother and my brothers moved, and moved to Glasgow; and my father remained in Michigan. And so when you're asking about who was read, well read, not as well read; my grandfather had a second grade education, so when you talking about large numbers of race-conscious reading materials, we're talking about a totally different thing. My mother is a very well-read person and I'm sure read numerous things. But if you're talking about my grandfather, especially, and my grandmother, ‘cause you asked a number of questions, you asked about race then you asked about politically conscious and those are very different questions and very different things. Both my grandfather and my mother were very well involved in terms of concern about politically active matters. My grandfather worked in many, many political campaigns. My mother worked in every campaign that I can think of in Glasgow, my grandfather in Metcalfe County.

FOSL: Were those Democratic campaigns?

CRENSHAW: Yes, those were Democratic campaigns. So in terms of being exposed to the importance of matters that affected electing candidates and government and the impact of that, then both of them were very, oh, active in conveying information to us. In terms of teaching you to be proud of the fact that you were black, and proud of the things that you could accomplish and all of that; you know, my mother, my grandfather, my grandmother, all were active in encouraging that. Now if you're talking about whether my grandfather was always sitting with a particular . . . the Louisville Defender or something, to use as an example, then, no. My mother would have probably had such things from time to time but--I think what I know in the sense of my mother and my grandfather, my grandmother to a lesser degree; the instilling in you that if you wanted to become whatever you want to become, you can accomplish that if you are willing to work hard and accomplish it. We were never taught that because you were black, that you couldn't go on to be what ever you wanted to be.

FOSL: Who were some of your heroes or heroines growing up?

CRENSHAW: My grandfather, my mother . . .

FOSL: Do you remember other figures in the kind of popular culture, the larger world?

CRENSHAW: Well, you're asking me to try to remember forty or fifty years ago. I don't remember back that far as to whether I had a Frederick Douglas that I aspired to be like. I can't--I mean, Douglas is one of my favorites as a person now, but I'd never heard of Frederick Douglas until I was, you know, out of college and in the army and reading black history related things. But in terms of, oh, our high school was named after Ralph Bunch; I mean, we knew about Ralph Bunch but, you know, having large numbers of--when you're talking about heroes, I mean, you're talking in terms of--if I were sitting around reading about Marcus Garvey and all of that, I think that's what you're . . .

FOSL: Well, maybe even somebody like Jackie Robinson . . .

CRENSHAW: Well, you knew of Jackie Robinson. You knew of those things but, I mean, you saw those as just a part of history. I mean, I don't know that I had . . . I don't know that I sat around patterning myself to someday I'm going to grow up and be a such and such. I decided when I was fifteen that I wanted to be a lawyer. I didn't pattern it after, you know, I'm going to be like Thurgood Marshall or . . . Now, somewhere probably in college I might have started learning more about Thurgood Marshall and that sort of thing.

FOSL: So, help me with the years here. What year would it have been that you went to Kentucky to stay?

CRENSHAW: I attended Kentucky State from 1964 to 1968, either August or September of sixty-four till June of sixty-eight.

FOSL: So that would have been at least somewhat politically active campus?

CRENSHAW: Well, much of what Martin Luther King was doing in the sixties was going on while I was in school. So, yes, during that period of time I would have read and learned of Martin Luther King, and Malcolm X, and Stokely Carmichael and all of the different people.

FOSL: Does it go back before that in terms of your, like I don't know, middle school or high school in terms of when you became aware of the Civil Rights movement? That there was a movement?

CRENSHAW: Well, I was aware of segregation because of the things that my grandparents, my mother, and others taught us about adjusting to life in terms of, you know, there are things you can do and can't do because of segregation. But you must keep in mind that when you are out here on a farm milking cows twice a day, doing all the things that you were doing, you know; it's kind of like you were asking about earlier, the presentation at the History Center. That evening you heard Gerald make references to what was going was going on in an urban center. You heard Eleanor make reference to what was going on in an urban center. There's not that many, you know, protest marches out on a farm.

FOSL: I guess what I'm trying to understand is how you took that in? What that meant to you, did it all just seen very far away then? Do you know what I mean? I grew up on a farm as well and . . .

CRENSHAW: No, no, I don't think it seemed . . . what years now, are we at sixty-four or are we back at young adulthood and childhood?

FOSL: I'm thinking more of when you were still at home.

CRENSHAW: Well, uh, . . . you have to understand when I was thirteen years of age, my grandfather was leasing part of the tobacco base to a white farmer. And at thirteen, my grandfather was saying to me, "Here's what I want you to have Mr. So and So do today." So at thirteen, I was, as a thirteen year-old who was black, saying to a fifty-some year old white man, "This is what my grandfather wants you to do today." And that white man was saying all right and was going on and doing it. And at thirteen, my grandfather would send me from Knob Lick to Glasgow to buy fertilizer, grains, all kinds of things that he needed for planting and things that he needed for the farm. And I was going from the farm, with my uncle driving the vehicle, and going into the Southern States Cooperative store and saying, "These are the things my grandfather sent me to get." And they were saying, "Where do you want us to load them up?" And they were put in the vehicle, and I signed for the thing and went on home. So at the same time that you had segregation, I never had the feeling that I couldn't do what I was suppose to do in life. Prior to going off to college, I worked at a hospital there, the T. J. Sampson Community Hospital. And it was an interesting experience there in which, even though you had no legal segregation per se, they had a wing of the hospital that was where all black people were put. Black people and poor whites were put on that wing of the hospital. And when I was working there, I was working as a janitor and again, this is segregation in it's--segregation and discrimination in it's--you know--most blatant form. And what happened the T. J. Sampson Community Hospital, there was a man there, Mr. Henderson I believe was his name, and he was a janitor and he always kept his floors just as . . .spotless. And so, I worked just as hard at sixteen years of age as he did and kept the area that I was assigned just as well. Well, there were a number of people who would go in and play cards and--in the hallway in the basement, there were three different locker rooms -- I'm sorry, four--four different locker rooms. The first one on the farthest end said 'women', no, it said 'ladies,' I take that back. The farthest one said 'ladies,' the next one said 'women,' the next one said 'men,' and the one that was the farthest up said 'gentlemen.' And the one that said 'men' by and large were black males who had their lockers in there. There might have been one or two whites but almost all black. And blacks and whites would congregate in there at different times and play cards and gamble. Well, I being the sixteen year old who had no interest in gambling, no desire to gamble, would go sometimes when the entire room, the entire locker room, was overflowing with blacks and whites; and so sit and would . . . or, you know, take my break in the one that said 'gentlemen.' Well anyway, there was a time when the Supervisor of the janitors, I think it was Parrish, came to me and said, "There's been some complaints about you using the white men's restroom.” And I as a sixteen year old, had no idea where the white men's restroom were, or was, because of the fact that on the wing that I did my work; which was this one that was predominately black and a few poor whites, you had both whites and blacks using the two restrooms that were available. And this wing of the hospital had both men and women. In some areas, you have black women, in some areas you have black men, and you have white women in some rooms and white men in other rooms. But anyway, both blacks and whites used the restrooms that were on this end of the hallway. And the one that was on the very end up here was sometimes used by both blacks and whites. And so as I cleaned up those, I had, you know, never known that there was a difference. And so, then when you came in the front of the hospital, there was a restroom out there was used by both white and black visitors. So, when she told me that there had been a complaint about me using the white men's restroom, it befuddled me for quite a spell there, thirty or forty minutes, the morning that she told me that. And so I went back to her later and asked her, "Mrs. Parrish, where is the white men's restroom?" And she then explained that it was the locker room where Mr. Henderson went, used. So I explained to her that if I was not good enough to use the white men's restroom then I was certainly was not good enough to clean it up. And so her explanation to me -- this was in 1963 -- that there was nothing racially intended. There was no intent for race whatsoever. And so she said to me that, “I should go home and talk with my parents, think about this, and then let her know, come back and let her know what I'd decided.” So I went home and told my mother and -- I was at this living in Glasgow, I was not living on the farm anymore -- and so I suppose now -- this is my speculation -- that Mrs. Parrish had felt that if I had talked with my parents, that I'd be told, "You must accept this. That as a poor black, and you will need the money and that you must accept it and you must go ahead and do what we tell you." Well, I explained it to my mother and my mother hit the ceiling, went through the roof. And rather than say, "You should accept this," it was the same thing I had said, you know. "You should quit, you should not even think that you're going to work there when they ( )."

FOSL: Could I interrupt? What was the name of the hospital again?

CRENSHAW: T. J. Sampson Community Hospital.

FOSL: Was it a public hospital?

CRENSHAW: Yes, ma'am, receiving federal funds. Yes, ma'am. Well anyway, I went back and the next day was . . . it was amusing as it could be because we started work at seven o'clock in the morning and usually by eight-thirty at the latest, Mrs. Parrish would make rounds to observe and make known that she was in the area. Anyway, she was the Supervisor of both the janitors and the maids. And so anyway, that particular day after I'd gone back to work--and that day was amusing, too--rather than be assigned to where I had been working, I was assigned up on the third floor, way over in another area that I normally didn't work. And so, instead of her coming by at the usual interval that she would come by to make sure that everybody saw, and was working hard and saw her and her presence. Well anyway, it was like--I'm guessing, this is a guess--eleven, eleven-fifteen or something before she ever came up on the third floor. And so she came over to me and she asked me if had talked to my parents and I told her I had. She asked me what I had decided. And I said, “Well, Mrs. Parrish, I'm going to quit." And she said, "Well, if you're going to have to quit, then before you do that, Mr. Kimball, (who was the administrator of the hospital) Mr. Kimball wants to talk with you." So anyway, it was kind of just totally amusing to me because there was a portion of the hospital that they called the chapel that was utilized for funerals whenever some one died and they didn't have any other place to have the funeral service. And so the chapel doubled as both a conference room and an area--and there was this very beautiful, long, dark wood conference table; and then over further to the side was the sort of chapel, religious area. And I had sat at a funeral; I don't if it was a funeral or if they just had religious services for patients that wanted to have service but couldn't leave the hospital. I don't know it may, might have just been that. But anyway, this was such a significant area that Mrs. Parrish always cleaned the chapel herself. She never allowed the maids or any of the janitors to clean it. And I'm trying to remember, it was some outlandishly small amount of money per hour that you earned . . .

FOSL: That she did?

CRENSHAW: No, no, that I did.

FOSL: That you did.

CRENSHAW: And I cannot remember whether it was like fifty cents an hour, or sixty cents an hour but some outlandishly small amount of money. But anyway, it was so funny because she explained to me that I had to meet with Mr. Parrish. So we go down to the conference room and we were at this beautiful conference table. Mr. Parrish sits at the head of the table, I sat to his right--he had me sit to his right--and it was very amusing to me because I was sixteen years of age, I had been working there for a long time and I had never been allowed in the conference room until we were talking about whether the hospital was--and nobody ever said this--but the real conversation was whether the hospital was about to get sued for racial discrimination. It wasn't about, you know, anything else because if you are receiving federal funds, the last thing you want is some sixteen year-old black kid to file suit against you for racial discrimination. So anyway, we were sitting down there, and Mr. Parrish goes through thirty minutes, at least, of conversation. And he was always--and I will always remember this--when you're cleaning the hallways and you're mopping and you're waxing and all; and Mr. Parrish would come through, the most you would get would be a grunt, and that was a very, very expansive greeting from him. Usually it was not even an acknowledgement that you were there as he came down the hallway. So here's a man who at his best would barely grunt to you as an acknowledgement or as a greeting, and now here we are down in the conference room with him at the head of the table and me to the right. And so he spends at least thirty minutes explaining to me what life was, and one the phrases the he mentioned was that there was-- we went through all of this about his children, and his wife, and his family and the various--to use his words--colored peopled that they knew and had interacted with and all. And the phrase that he used was--after he got through summarizing all these racial differences and distinctions--was what he was really trying to explain. The phrase that he used near the end was, "Now there are some things in life that you just can't change." And it was almost amusing to me because, you know, at sixteen I knew that was not true. I knew there were many things that you could change. And the reason that that didn't bother me at all when he was saying it was, because all of my childhood had been one of which my grandfather, and all of my family, had taught me to do what I wanted to do; become what I wanted to become. And--I'm trying to think--by that time, by that time I had already graduated from high school and graduated valedictorian of my class. And so, you know, it wasn't like I was, you know, intimidated by the room, by him, or any of that. And one of the things that really, really was also noteworthy: he was going through all the various comparisons between black people and white people and he was pointing out that his wife did not work, and that she stayed home and kept their children and made sure that their children were well-cared for. And as he was explaining that, it was you know, something I thought about and really thought how stupid it was for him to be using all of the explanations the way he was explaining it; because as he was comparing the fact that his wife had got to stay home and, you know, have the idea set of circumstances in terms of raising their children, my mother was working at a chicken factory, picking hen feathers and had to be at work at four-thirty in the morning. At work at four-thirty in the morning. And so, you know, as he was trying to explain all of the wonderful things that went on in he and his family's life, it was stupid as you sat there knowing that it was a result of the difference in economic standing, and as the difference of what was allowed economically for black people versus white people. That, you know, here is my mother who was an educator and teacher, and had been an elementary school teacher prior to her going back to Michigan--is back here in Glasgow working in a chicken factory because the chicken factory paid more than being a teacher. And yet, at the same time, he's telling me that there are some things in life that you just can't change. So it was very, very amusing to me we go through all of this thirty to forty-five minutes. And you have to keep in mind that thirty to forty-five minutes to a man who would give you a grunt all of the rest of the time that he was with and around you is a huge amount of time, and this was a man who barely would speak to you. So now here he is under the threat of the possibility of some federal intervention, adversely affecting their funds, that he's now got plenty of time and he's got all of these personal things to tell you about life. And I will never forget it, we get to the end and he looks over to me and he says, "Well, now what have you decided?" And I said, "Well, Mr. Kimble, I'm going to quit." Well then the ultimate in stupidity on his part was--stupidity to the extent that how he could have thought that I would have ever believe him I don’t know. We get to the end and he says, "Well, if you just quit then I can't give you a recommendation in the future. If you work two weeks and give the proper two week notice, then I will be able to give you a recommendation." And I thought to myself as he was saying it, how could he be so stupid, how could he think that I would be such a fool to believe that he will ever give me a favorable recommendation? So anyway, I worked two more weeks to pay off another payment on my car, and I quit, and I left there to go off to work in construction. And went to work for the Ernest Simpson Construction Company, and worked there until I left and went to college. And as I told the other people--other orderlies and janitors who worked there at the hospital--that I was going to work in construction and I would not be back, this one particular person told me, "You'll be back, construction work is extremely hard and you will be back." And I have been back to the T. J. Sampson Community Hospital as visiting patients, but I've never been back there to work. And another interesting part, there was another lady and--I can't remember her name now but--she was not officially supervisor but she's--I was helping her, I remember after this little incident about me going to quit and after the--and I told her the same thing, “If I wasn't good enough to use the restrooms I certainly wasn't good enough to clean them up.” And she was, you know, cautioning me about how this was such a good job and that--this is another white lady, not a black lady--but anyway, she was explaining to me how, you know, that I might want to definitely stay there and leave the ability to come back if I ever needed a job there in the future. And I never envisioned that I would need a job there in the future. So when you ask me about discrimination, yes, I understand it, yes, I was exposed to it. I did not feel then nor do I feel now, that I would be under the problem that Mr. Kimble talked about--that there's some things in life that you just can't change. I mean, when you're thirteen and telling a fifty-some year-old white man, "This is what you must do today. This is what your job is to be, this is what you do," then when you're being told at sixteen that there's some things in life that you can't change; you know, you don't haul off and start yelling and screaming at the man. You simply, you know, simply . . .

FOSL: ( )

CRENSHAW: No, I didn't blow it off at all. You simply tell him, "No I cannot work for you any longer." So in terms of the way I have approached life as best I could, you know, I had at fifteen decided I wanted to become a lawyer. Now to become a lawyer, you must go to college, or graduate from college. You must go to law school, you must graduate from law school. So it wasn't like, you know, that I had some inability to understand the things that can be done. And again, it goes back to my grandfather and my mother teaching us that education is extremely important. Teaching us that hard work will enable you to do what you want to do, and that you can accomplish what you want to if you try. The best thing I can probably explain to you if it helps any, is having been to Louisville many years ago -- this was many, many years ago -- at the Humana Building and the entrance -- have you ever been to the Humana Building?

FOSL: That new one?

CRENSHAW: No, no, no, this was many years ago.

FOSL: The old one? Yeah . . .

CRENSHAW: The one that had all of the beautiful green marble.

FOSL: I've never been there.

CRENSHAW: Well, have you been to the entryway? You've never seen the outside of it? Okay.

FOSL: No, only from a distance.

CRENSHAW: Well, it's a very, very striking, beautiful entryway. Now back then, once you got inside, it didn't look anywhere near as elaborate as it did there at the entryway. Now the new one, I don't know what it looks like . . .

FOSL: It's striking, the entryway . . .

CRENSHAW: Well . . . And it's the same thing when I go to large cities that have equally beautiful architecture. When I enter a center of power, I am impressed with its beauty but I'm not awed. I'm neither awed nor overwhelmed with it. And so as the years have progressed, when I try to do things to help improve the lives of people, you know, I see it as something that anyone can do who is willing to work hard and put their mind to doing it. And so, you know, it was like when I went to law school. I mean, I didn't have any feeling that this is something that I won't be able to accomplish or achieve. I've worked here in Fayette County at least since 1973 in various political campaigns for person, after person, after person, and as a result, you know, you don't have this feeling of, "Well my goodness, if I try to do this, I can't do it."

FOSL: I was curious about this incident you described with the hospital, if you'd already made up your mind before that to become a lawyer?

CRENSHAW: Oh yeah, yeah, I'd made up my mind. My little deciding to make up my mind was fun. My grandfather always taught us that we should be our own boss, as he put it; and it involves around being self-employed. So every morning when I'd go out there to get the cattle--to drive the cows in for us to milk the cows--one morning there was a beautiful view and mist on the ground, and a beautiful sunshine reflecting off of that and really was beautiful. And the cows were out there grazing and they didn't want to be bothered or pestered at all. And it finally dawned on me, these cows don't want to have to be brought in here to milk; and there's got to be more for me in life than bringing these cows in every morning; [Laughter] milking these cows everyday. So, you know, it wasn't like that . . . and at that point I then decided, you know, if I'm going to be my own boss, then what should I become? And my mother and my aunt and other family members had been teachers. So you had my grandfather as a farmer, and my grandmother as a farm person; and, you know, myself working in farming from the time I was eleven until whatever age that was, fifteen, four years. The only careers that I knew of then was either being a lawyer, a doctor, or a teacher. And so as a doctor, I didn't feel I could stomach the blood and all that went with being a doctor; at least I thought there was a lot of blood with it. And since I was scared of blood I couldn't become a doctor. Being a teacher, which I now am in terms of teaching at a university level; and I didn't at that age think that teaching was the wisest thing because you always had to go to summer school to keep working on all of your certification. So to my way of looking at it, you didn't want to become a teacher because it ruined your summers. But teaching at a university level doesn't ruin your summers. [Laughing] I might add. . .

FOSL: No, I like it.

CRENSHAW: [Laughing] So anyway, my choice was to become a lawyer, and I went from there working toward becoming a lawyer. Now in terms of, I guess, what you would think of working in civil rights and all that kind of thing, my efforts have been--and there have been some civil rights kind of things--but part of the way I viewed life as a young person as well as now is that you have to work to change things but you also . . .

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

CRENSHAW: But anyway, my view of things is that you're better able to make changes if you are in fact--going back to my grandfather's philosophy--you need to be your own boss. And if you are able and are in positions that you make decisions, you are able to make a lot better improvement than if you are always on the outside, you know. I just see it as, you know . . . one of my law professors, Professor Eugene Mooney, once taught us in Constitutional Law, that the most important part of a decision is deciding who gets to decide. And so, my way of viewing life is that, you know, I like helping decide who gets to decide. And when I was in law school, one of the things that a colleague of mine--I was a third year student and Harold Green was a second year student and he was President of the Black American Law Students Association and I was Vice President of the organization. We decided that we were going to desegregate the law school faculty; and we were going to do it because the law school never had any blacks on it. So we talked with a black law professor at . . . oh, it's West Virginia, I forget the exact title of the law school but it's in Morgantown, West Virginia . . .

FOSL: West Virginia University of Law.

CRENSHAW: Okay. A fellow by the name of Franklin Kleckly and Kleckly was a law professor and done a good job, at least as far as I know. I haven't seen him since, I guess now, I think it's 1973.

FOSL: What year was this group?

CRENSHAW: Nineteen seventy-three. Well anyway, we decided we were going to try to desegregate the faculty of the law school. And the reason being that we felt -- or I felt especially -- that black law students and white law students needed to see a black teacher. Black law students needed it because of the fact that we needed to see a positive reflection of our own self-image, and white law students needed to see it to see that, in fact, black law professors are, in fact, able and capable and a black. If my teacher was black, then other black lawyers are going to be just as capable as anybody else. So anyway, we went to the Dean of the law school, then a man by the name of George Hardy. And asked Dean Hardy had he ever considered hiring a black law professor, and he said, "Oh yes, we tried." He pulled open the bottom of the drawer--and this was in good faith, I mean, he was not, you know, trying to stifle us in any way, form, or fashion -- he pulled open his desk drawer and he had all this list of files of people they had tried to hire. So again, the most important part of the decision is deciding who gets to decide. So rather than going in saying, "Oh, please, please," we went in with a name of a specific person, name was Kleckly. And we had talked to Kleckly and asked Kleckly if he would consider coming to UK and he'd said, “Yes”; but he had all this criteria he wanted. Among those was thirty thousand dollars a year, full tenure, full professorship, and the right to practice law as much as he wanted to. So, we asked Dean Hardy about having hiring anybody or considered hiring. He said, “Yes, he would love to but everybody he had ever tried to get had turned him down.” “Well,” we said “What about Frank Kleckly.” We told him what Kleckly wanted, he said, "My God, if I do that all the members of the faculty will quit because there are only two faculty members who are making anywhere close to that and they've been here for years, and years, and years.” So we negotiated from--I can't remember whether it was like May or March or whatever it was--we negotiated, I guess it would have had to start around February or March because I think it was like May when we finally leveled off. So anyway, Kleckly had told us he would come if we got him all these things. Well, Dean . . .and there were interviews and Kleckly came, students loved him . . . the course that we wanted him to teach was a four hour class in Evidence. And we knew Evidence was his specialty, and thus it was a significant course that all the students had to take. And at least fifty percent of the people who took evidence would be in his section and the others would be in Professor Lawson's section so it would be at least half of the law students would always be taking this professor. Well finally about May, Kleckly told us that he had applied for General Counsel of the Office of Civil Rights, and that he had to wait to see whether he was going to get that position and he wouldn't know until May or some such. Well anyway, Dean Hardy negotiated in good faith because he worked very hard and tried to help us find--when Kleckly said, “No”--a black law professor. And ultimately, a man by the name of William James was hired and he was . . . but it wasn't exactly the course that we had hoped for. James' area was Legal Bibliography, he was a law librarian. So he became the law librarian, and became the first black law professor at the University of Kentucky College of Law, came in the Fall of 1974. And in that sense, our efforts, you know, desegregation of the faculty . . . now that was in 1973 when we first started and then James, Bill James came that fall. Well, I'm saying seventy-three, it might have been . . . he might have come in the Fall of seventy-three instead of the fall of -- no, I'm telling you a story because I graduated in December of seventy-three -- so it was the August of seventy-four that he came. Well anyway, because I studied for the Bar in February seventy-four. Right it would have been seventy-three when we had the negotiations, and it would have been seventy-four that he came; because it might have been that we negotiated . . . I know what it was, yeah, we negotiated about Kleckly that spring and then we worked on the situation with Bill James from August through that Fall of seventy-three. Well anyway, in 1978 and four years later, I was graduated and was at the U. S. Attorney's Office. In 1978, I go back and I--different Dean, Dean Lewis, Tom Lewis--George Hardy had left; gone back to Texas and he was practicing law again. So I went in and I'm now an Assistant United States Attorney, and again, in the U. S. Attorney's Office. I will come back to that in a moment because I was the first black Assistant U. S. Attorney for the Eastern Judicial District here in Lexington, But anyway, I'm now working for the U. S. Attorney's Office as a Federal Prosecutor and I go in--and this is with no authorization from the U. S. Department of Justice whatsoever. So I go in and I ask Dean Lewis have you all--same phrase I used in seventy-three--have you all ever considered hiring a second black law professor? And Dean Lewis reached down at the same drawer, pulled out the same things and said, “We worked and we've tried and we tried and tried.” But only now the salaries that the people were asking were like forty-five thousand a year and making much more money. And so, the salary of the people who had turned them down now, not the salaries of the UK professors at that time. Well anyway, Dean Lewis again negotiated in good faith. After we posed the request--the demand as Fredrick Douglas would have called it--he went forward and worked very diligently with me in trying to find a second black law professor. And the fellow we tried to get was a man by the name of Stanley Walker. We thought we had . . . tried our best to get him. Stanley was leaving what was called the Rauch Corporation. And the Rauch Corporation developed the shopping centers in inner-cities, especially in Baltimore, Maryland. That's where they were located. But anyway, he was general counsel for the Rauch Corporation, had--and I can never remember which order this was--he was an undergraduate from Harvard and his law school from Yale, or vice-versa. And had worked in all kinds of different capacities, in small firms, large law firms, had done a stint with legal aide, and at that point was also general counsel for this Rauch Corporation that redeveloped inner-city blighted areas. So he was leaving there and his choices were down to UK and a school in Florida; a law school in Florida, and his wife had family from Florida. So I will say, Dean Lewis wined and dined and worked to try to get Stanley Walker to come. We were not--again, we were not able to get Stanley Walker. We ended with a different man who came, and that became the second black law professor at the University of Kentucky College of Law. And over the years -- now I'm jumping back now to my efforts in terms of work at the U. S. Attorney's Office. Patrick Malloy who was the United States Attorney at the time came to me and asked me if I would consider coming to work for the U. S. Attorney's Office and I said, “Yes.” And Jimmy Carter was President of the United States at the time. And it's my understanding now, I never saw this in writing, but when President Carter became President, it is my understanding that Carter made it known throughout government, "I want to see more black people hired." And it's my guesstimate that that filtered down to U. S. Attorney as well as everything else. So when I went there in April of 1978, there had never--the office had been operating since 1901--and there had never been a black Assistant U. S. Attorney, or U. S. Attorney, Assistant or a full-fledged U. S. Attorney, in the history of that office. Now a few months before, maybe, I don't think it was as much as a year, but a period of time before I went there, a fellow by the name of Hancy Jones was the first black Assistant U. S. Attorney in the state. Now he was over in the Western District in Louisville and thus, in terms of the state, I would have been the second in the state but in terms of this local Lexington Office, I was the first to ever . . . the first black to ever work as a lawyer, as an Assistant U. S. Attorney. So, you know, later when I became a state representative from Fayette County, and thus the first black, you know, state representative from Fayette County; it's not like with each of those that I saw them as something that I could never do or that it was an impossibility. You know, it's back to when Mr. Kimble was telling me that there were some things in life that you can't change. Well, that's not true, it wasn't true then, I knew it wasn't true. When you look at the Civil Rights Act of 1964, you know, that legislation that Martin Luther King was able to get enacted, you may not be able to change the hearts and minds of people but you can change their conduct. And through the utilization of the law, you can change their conduct. Now you asked me earlier a question that I have to restate. Yes, it became clear to me at a young age that through the use of the law and a law degree and its impact, you can improve society, you can change society. And earlier the way you asked the question, I don't think prompted me to think about what I guess you were actually asking. Oh yes, very young in life, the combination of my grandfather's admonitions about being your own boss--and that's why I decided at fifteen to practice law--because what I was looking at was one, you are able to go into business; the second part of it was--and this was a young person's way of looking at life--was that if I tried to become a lawyer and did not do as well in terms of, you know, becoming admitted to practice--that if I was going to go into business, then at least I would know what the law was and if I hired lawyers. I would at least know enough about law to know when they were right and when they were wrong; but I never actually felt that I wouldn't be able to do it. I, you know, felt confident I could accomplish what I wanted to do. And then the other part of it is yes, it was very clear to me that if I had a law degree, I could, in fact, improve society. In the years that I've been practicing law, since 1974, that's what I've tried to do with that skill and with that degree and with that license. I've tried to help everybody that I could. So in terms of teaching, I teach undergraduate Criminal Justice courses. So the use of the law is there by helping other young people there. The use of the law in representing clients is there by helping people who need help. And in terms of the legislative end of it, the ability to have been trained in the law helps me very, very much in terms of understanding it, in terms of the ramifications of what can and can't be done.

FOSL: Can you give me kind of a quick chronology of your career in politics?

CRENSHAW: Are you talking about being elected or being involved in political campaigns.

FOSL: First being elected and then I want to talk about political campaigns or even on issues of politics.

CRENSHAW: I was elected in November of 1992, took office in January of 1993 and I've served in the Kentucky General Assembly from 1993 to the present.

FOSL: And was that the first elected office . . .

CRENSHAW: Yes.

FOSL: Is that right?

CRENSHAW: Yes.

FOSL: And so, with regard to, like, maybe you could just say a little bit about impetus for doing that, you know, what sort of took you in that direction?

CRENSHAW: Well, in college I was a history and political science major but I always look at my political science professors and history professors and by whatever choice and a lot of academicians view things as they should be academicians they should not be practitioners, that were eloquent in recounting what other people have done. I on the other hand, and maybe because of some of my grandfather's teachings, always felt that you should able and -- maybe one of phrases because he had many of them -- one was you should practice what you preach and it may have well been that to me, it's fine to be eloquent in recounting all the historical things and everything and the political activities but if you are going to recount all that you ought to be able to have some involvement and practical experience in it. So as I teach students, I think I'm a much better teacher because I've left the courtroom two days before having to encounter just what I'm telling them about. In terms of political activities, in 1973 there was a mayoral race here in Lexington in which Foster Pettit was running for mayor and he asked this thing of me and Harold Green and I to help in his campaign. Well, we started by trying to help register sanitation workers to vote. Another law school classmate of ours--not classmate, he wasn't a classmate of mine, he was a year behind me--but he asked Harold and I to go down with him to the sanitation department to help register people to vote and we did. While we were standing there, and we've got thirty people or so in line to be registered to vote, and then he says, "Well, I've got to leave, I've got to go to class." And we just can't leave thirty people standing saying, you know, we've got to leave so we continued to finish the registration. After that, we got involved in helping Mr. Pettit in his campaign. And so my grandfather -- you asked me something earlier, I never came back to it -- had been involved in campaign, after campaign, after campaign. Well, as I sat there as a twelve year old watching him at fish fries and this, that, and the other; where he was working in whatever candidate's campaign it became very, very natural as a, you know, a young adult, that working in someone's campaign or being involved in the decision-making process made sense. And then later, as I said in my Constitutional Law class when Gene Mooney was saying, “You know, the most important part of a decision is deciding who gets to decide those things,” had a very nice fit because, and it's not philosophical; it's not standing back talking about here's what happened during the Pettit campaign. It's here's where we were out working doing this task, the next task, and the next task. And I still do the same thing, I mean, I still . . . even when I'm not running for office, even when I'm unopposed or whatever, I try to help somebody else. And so, from seventy-three to the present, I've helped numerous people in numerous races.

FOSL: Knowing that you have to be somewhere at seven and that we could . . .

CRENSHAW: Well. I said seven but I really don't have to be there until eight.

FOSL: Talk about, maybe this would be a juncture to just sort of digress a little and talk about your work with the Pritchard Committee and how that kind of came about.

CRENSHAW: Well, I don't remember exactly who appointed me. I don't remember whether that was . . . I don't remember exactly. Mr. Pritchard, Ed Pritchard, Jr., was alive and was the chair of that committee. It started out being entitle the Committee on the Future of Higher Education in Kentucky and later--we had--I was--I think I told you earlier, a long time ago, I think I served on it about eighteen months is what I vaguely recollect. But anyway, somewhere around a year or so into it, it was renamed after Mr. Pritchard which was so rightly deserving and it was renamed the Pritchard Committee. But basically what it was and what we were trying to do was study how the future of higher education should be and what kinds of things the State of Kentucky should be trying to do in higher education. And I had been a faculty member at Kentucky State for a long time then, in fact, I was a teacher there from seventy-four to seventy-eight. And then when I left to go to the U. S. Attorney's Office, I told everybody that, you know, I would be gone between two years and four years and did not plan to make it a career in the U. S. Department of Justice, but that I would be coming back to teach. And so, it would have been somewhere after I went back I would imagine, that I served on the Pritchard Committee and we had many, many meetings over at Shakertown where we studied what the circumstances were in higher education and what we felt needed to be done and that sort of thing.

FOSL: Well, as I understand, I think you weren't on that at the very first, among the very first group of members, although I may be wrong about that.

CRENSHAW: Well, I may be telling . . . I may . . . when I said eighties, I've got my years wrong because . . .

FOSL: No, I think you're right about that. It was started in seventy-nine.

CRENSHAW: Well, maybe it was seventy-nine . . .

FOSL: In the fall of seventy-nine . . .

CRENSHAW: Okay, okay, that's when it started . . .

FOSL: And I know Louis Coleman was also among the original group, I'm not sure whether he went to any of the meetings, but the reason I'm fidgeting around with this is I have a list of the . . .

CRENSHAW: It would have been after I left the U. S. Attorney's Office then, you're right because . . . name some of the people who's on your list. Lois Weinberg was on there but Lois stayed a lot longer than I did, I'm sure she was on there even after I left, for years and years.

FOSL: She's still on it actually.

CRENSHAW: Who's on the list that you have. Raymond Burris was on it at the time that I was there . . .

FOSL: Pat Kafoglis?

CRENSHAW: Yeah, Pat Kafoglis was there.

FOSL: I guess Dot Riding?

CRENSHAW: Dot Riding was there.

FOSL: Barney Tucker?

CRENSHAW: Barney, yes, Mr. Tucker was there.

FOSL: Wade Mounts?

CRENSHAW: Wade Mounts was there. Now was that the first group or a second group? Which one are you saying I was in?

FOSL: Well, I think you came on pretty quickly. I really don't know.

CRENSHAW: I was thinking I was among, if not the first group, at least the very early group.

FOSL: That's what I think. I think not at the very first meetings but like still within that first six months.

CRENSHAW: Right, now that's what I would . . . that's what I recall. I mean there were many, many articles and materials and consultants that came to provide information to us to think about. And basically, what the Pritchard Committee was trying to do was make recommendations on what the future of higher education should be. And I'm trying to remember, this is my recollection, that Governor John Y. Brown, Jr., was the Governor at the time. And it may have even been an appointment, I'm not sure if the Governor's Office made the appointment or how the appointment process came . . .

FOSL: They came out of . . . yeah, I think . . .

CRENSHAW: The Council on Higher Education was probably the one . . .

FOSL: Yes . . .

CRENSHAW: Would be my guess.

FOSL: And prospects would still be hired in this particular project ( ) still on the Council . .

CRENSHAW: Right, Bob Sexton was the Deputy Director of the Council on Higher Education at the time, as I recall, and Bob was assigned to this particular Council on Higher Education project.

FOSL: So he and the man who was the Director of the Council . . .

CRENSHAW: Harry Snider . . .

FOSL: Right, that's right. I guess they had, and Ed Pritchard I think, had a lot of input.

CRENSHAW: Oh, yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

FOSL: Yes, I do have you down as one of the original group, I was wrong about that. Well, it says actually recruited in 1980, so that was within the first, you know, six months. It didn't really begin until the end of seventy-nine.

CRENSHAW: Okay.

FOSL: So you were in that very early group and it was still dealing with, with issues of higher education . . .

CRENSHAW: Right.

FOSL: And when Ed Pritchard was really kind of holding . . .

CRENSHAW: Yeah, Mr. Pritchard I loved. I mean, I really, really enjoyed him. Mr. Pritchard--the three people that I consider to be the most analytical, that I can recall--and that is my grandfather, Dr. Henry Ellis Chaney, who is a Professor Emeritus of Kentucky State University and Mr. Pritchard. Three of the most analytical men that I've ever had the good fortune to talk with at length. My grandfather had a second grade education and could barely sign his name, but was as analytical and insightful as probably anybody you'd ever want to talk to. And I had the good fortune of spending hundreds and hundreds of hours between the time I was a baby to the time I was . . . to the time he died. And then with Dr. Chaney those four years in college, he was kind enough to answer any question, to stay--there were times when I would go see Dr. Chaney at two o'clock in the afternoon, and there would be one question after another and another until at five o'clock. His wife, Mrs. Chaney, would knock on the door saying, "Henry, we've got to go home." And he would have never become frustrated or, or irritated at my asking so many questions. In the same kind of way, Mr. Pritchard was extremely capable intellectually and loved analyzing and questioning and seeking the answers about higher education and, I'm sure, many other things. So, the time I spend on the Pritchard Committee were extremely rewarding in terms of, you know, the probing about what should be done. Now I will acknowledge in terms of being on the Pritchard Committee, Mr. Pritchard knew more about education that I could ever imagine. So I probably learned more than I gave in terms of contribution. I probably got more for being on there than I gave but it was a very, very good . . . And again now that I . . . now that we're talking tonight, it is much like serving in the General Assembly in the sense that there is so much information that's being conveyed and so many issues that are being looked at. So I hadn't thought about it until our sitting here tonight that that duration of time of being a member of the Pritchard Committee probably helped a lot in terms of what I do now and what I try to do now.

FOSL: It is interesting the way that so many of the people that were chosen for that early group of the Pritchard Committee have ended up being real movers and shakers in the state; although they weren't particularly, you know, established members certainly not at that time. So to the extent that . . .would you say it was primarily your credentials with Kentucky State that might have been, you know, one of things that drew them to select you, or were you involved in other education campaigns at that time? In other aspects of education?

CRENSHAW: Now this is a guess . . . this is a guess and I'm not sure. Part of it I would speculate would be a combination of things. And one, being a lawyer and being--having been a federal prosecutor, and being a university professor in combination. My thinking would be that they were looking for someone who had the ability to help bring to the group insights that might not have otherwise been there because, at that point in time, Raymond Burris was on the committee. Raymond came, as best as I can remember, after I did. I don't remember the exact date but there was a point in time when he became a member, and I don't remember whether we were on there from the beginning together or whether he came later, but my recollection was he came later. Well, in Raymond's instance, as best as I recall at the time, his, well no, now that's not totally true. Part of his credentials, I'm sure, were having been a Rhodes Scholar and all, but being a young, black lawyer, in my instance again, a black lawyer and teacher, may have been and I don't know what prompted the selections. You know, when you look at it . . . and Harry Snider, I was really impressed with in a very nice way. I told you earlier that there was a number of very, very capable people there on the committee and it was always nice to be among folk who were very capable. But the day that you know that Harry knows what he's doing above and beyond--and he did to impress us, I'm sure--all the members of the Pritchard Committee then. We was still under the old name, and we're sitting around the table and we're all, I mean it's a huge conference table. [Laughing] So instead of Harry introducing the members of the Committee to the audience--and there's at least fifty people from this side all the way down and around and across and up here--Harry introduces every member of the audience and their title and what they did. [Laughing] So for the purposes of establishing to the members that, yes, I am intelligent and I do know what I'm doing. [Laughing] As the Executive Director of the Council on Higher Education, Harry got my attention. I was able to acknowledge that Harry knows what he's doing.

FOSL: Well, when you were first on the Pritchard Committee dealing with issues of higher education, I think and, again I haven't had a chance to consult my notes recently, but sort of the future of Kentucky State was sort of a part of those discussions or . . .

CRENSHAW: Yes, but I don't think that that came at the very beginning. I think that came at a later point in, near, near the . . . I want to say near the end of the time our . . .six months or so near the end of my duration there, I think.

FOSL: I was just curious to hear a little bit more about, you know, what these discussions, what were the discussions about?

CRENSHAW: I don't know Pritchard Committee itself--and again we're talking twenty years ago--I don't recall Kentucky State being specifically debated and discussed as a what are we going to do with Kentucky State. Now the Council on Higher Education, yes. And separate instances of the Council on Higher Education meeting, then yes.

FOSL: Were you on the Council?

CRENSHAW: No, I was never on the Council on Higher Education. And Raymond Burris, I don't remember whether he . . . he became a member of the Council on Higher Education. I don't remember whether he came to the Committee at the exact same time that he was on there or whether he was on the Committee and then became a member of the Council on Higher Education. But his . . . another part of his coming to the Committee may have had to do with the Council if he were on the Council on Higher Education at the time that he came on to the Committee, then that would have obviously been a part of the reason why he came. Now whether he was on the Pritchard Committee and then went to the Council on Higher Education and that was a part of the reason he got to that, I don't remember, it's been so many years ago.

FOSL: I was also curious to know if there was any . . .if, you know, because I guess one of the things you read, the news clippings from back around like the early eighties when the Pritchard Committee submitted its report and it sort of, you know, the legislature didn't really enact it properly . . .

CRENSHAW: A lot of what was recommended?

FOSL: Right, so I was curious if that, you know, had anything to do with your interest in getting in to, you know, government in that way, you know, just that experience; because I know a lot of the interviews have talked, other people have talked about it.

CRENSHAW: No, it didn't. As I said earlier, my finally going into or running for political office . . . I had, it was almost a common, natural thing to do. As I said, I'd worked in every mayoral race in Fayette County from 1973 to the present. I've worked in every Presidential race, I worked in many congressional races, I worked in city council races, I worked in judicial races, so it wasn't like that . . . and as I told you before, I believe in practicing--being an active participant--so to run for office was not an unheard, you know. It wasn't like there was some big thing that said, "Oh my God, I think I will do this today."

FOSL: Like a shot in the dark?

CRENSHAW: No, no, it was a sort of a natural progression that just, you know--when this particular district became--and really this district was a combination of a part of what used to be the old seventy-fifth, a part of what used to be the old seventy-six; and I believe, I want to say like the seventy-eighth, that became the newly created seventy-seventh. And again, we're going back to things like the Voting Rights Act of 1965, where again there were federal efforts to try to see that we had more blacks voting and that you had more black elected officials. So as a part of the federal efforts to see that across the United States that there were districts that were designed in such a way that blacks were more able to be elected. So when this district was designed in such a way that it had a larger number of black voters in the district. One of my friends who is now deceased--a young man by the name of Michael Rankins, who had also worked with me many times trying to help me help other people in campaigns, kept urging me to run. And I kept saying, "Michael, I don't have the time. I can't practice law and teach and do that, and I just don't have the time." And Mike kept saying, "You've got to, you've got to." Well, Michael and I had worked extremely hard in Judge Gary Payne's district court race for District Judge, and so when, you know, the time came -- it would have been in 1991, I guess. It would have been, it would have been the fall of ninety-one. Michael kept urging me, "Jesse, you ought to run." And I kept saying, "Michael, there isn't no way in the world I've got the time to do it because I'm working as hard as I can trying to practice law and teach." And he said, "You've got to, you've got to." And the reason that it became a priority for Michael was because you had to file by the filing deadline. So I told Michael, I said, "Well, Michael, I'll think about it." Well, that was the thing. As soon as I said I would think about it, then it became his ability to keep coming back saying, “You've got to do it, you've got to do it.” So, I first told him I'd let him know by November what I had decided and in November I told him no. And he says, "Oh, you've got to." So I said, "Okay, Michael, I'll let you know by December." So finally, he kept going back and forth and I ultimately filed and here I am.

FOSL: If I could go back to the issue of the Pritchard Committee for a minute, in terms of the actual experiences of those meetings . . .

CRENSHAW: What?

FOSL: Do you have any particular memories or stories about that experience? Was it . . . how would you characterize the experience of the meetings?

CRENSHAW: Well, I . . . sometimes you confuse me with your questions. What do you mean by the experience?

FOSL: Well . . .

CRENSHAW: Are you talking about content or are you talking about interaction with other members of the Committee, are you talking about . . .

FOSL: I really talking about both, those two things.

CRENSHAW: Well . . .

FOSL: The seriousness of the discussions . . .

CRENSHAW: Oh, yes, the discussions were extremely focused on how do we make Kentucky a much better place in terms of education. I eluded . . . I stated earlier about Lois Weinberg, Lois Combs Weinberg, being on the Pritchard Committee. I mean you had people who were genuinely . . . Joy Hembry was on there, and I can't remember which sequence, I mean there were people, some of them came and went and then there were others, Wade Mounts was on there for years and may still be . . .

FOSL: Still is.

CRENSHAW: And you had people who were very, very serious about trying to make the State of Kentucky the best educational state that there is. And so it's -- and I hate to keep jumping away from the Pritchard Committee -- but like, take when we looked at House Bill 1 and the changes that are made now in higher education in Kentucky. The seriousness of which educational issues were studied, that was the kind of thing that was going on at the Pritchard Committee; that someday there ought to be this very serious focus on Kentucky performing well educationally, in students and persons from Kentucky. The kinds of things that we did in House Bill One, where we compared North Carolina's system . . . I mean, Mr. Pritchard had experts and consultants coming from all parts of the country; and Bob Sexton and them being the ones who carried out the day-to-day getting them here. We had people coming in all the time, showing us what had been done in other states and how we ought to this or we could do the other.

FOSL: And how long did you think that the Committee addressed issues of like racial equity?

CRENSHAW: Well, good question, good question. It was not discussed to the kind of degree that I think you're saying that an equity . . . I mean, there were discussions about the number of blacks that were in the higher--that were seeking higher education degrees. There were discussions about some of the problems that might need to be addressed, but it never rose to the level of an equity kind of task force kind of thing, if that's what you're asking.

FOSL: I guess a different way of saying of this, did you feel that it adequately addressed issues of like racial injustices and . . .

CRENSHAW: Well, you know, I think our country has a real . . . no, I don't think our country ever has addressed the problems of race in America in a way that makes sense. I mean we address it in, kind of like Mr. Kimble did, "My God, we've got to do something, he's about to sue." Well, in the same kind of way, we address it all the time that way. When we went to the Dean of the Law School and said, “You never had a black professor.” It was like, "Oh, my God, we've got to do something." I go back four years and I say, "You've had one and you haven't gone out on your own and gotten a second.” And the say, "Oh, my God, now that you've brought it up, let's do something." Well, we do the same thing in almost everything. You know, I went to the U. S. Attorney's Office in 1978. Well since then, to the best of my knowledge, one fellow came as I was leaving and there's been one additional since then so they're up to two. And we going from seventy-eight--I left in July 31, 1980--and now we're at 2001 and I think, I don't think there's more than two there, if there's more than two, it might be three at the local office. And I'm not saying that anybody is out there saying, " Oh, my God, we're going to discriminate and we going to specifically bar the door and keep black lawyers out." I'm not saying that but I'm saying I just don't think in America we ever look at this is a country where we're going to make sure that we get a large numbers of women and blacks in positions of power and authority. The Kentucky General Assembly right now has, I believe, four blacks. The Kentucky Senate has one and I don't see large recruiting efforts. [Laughing] Let's see how we can increase pool by twenty-five blacks. When I was in law school, one of the things we did was try to recruit black law students, okay. Well, when I first went to law school, there were three blacks in my first year class, there were like six in the whole school. I went to the military after the end of my first year. I got drafted and had to go away and come back. When I came back, there were like fifteen black law students and it was just astounding to me that degree of increase, okay. I graduated in December of 1973 and if you go out to UK College of Law, I bet, I bet money you won't find twenty black law students.

FOSL: I bet you're right.

CRENSHAW: Now is that an intentional racial discrimination? Is that appropriately affecting equity? No, it not appropriately affecting equity if you're defining equity in terms of how may black lawyers do you plan to have in the state. There are something like in the State of Kentucky -- and please forgive me if I misquote this -- but I think there are five black judges in the State of Kentucky. There are two here in Fayette County, I think there is something like two in Louisville, and one on the Kentucky Court of Appeals, in the whole state, you know. There are like two hundred and seventy, I think, I hope my numbers are right, of . . . no, I may be wrong, that may be way too high, but anyway, out of . . . yeah, there are five black judges out of two hundred seventy judges. Yeah, I'm correct on that. In terms of black lawyers, out of the thousands and thousands of lawyers, they're not there. The numbers are very small. Now how do you get more black lawyers? You get black lawyers by getting more black law students. How do you get more black law students? One of the things, as I said, if UK has three black law professors, the highest I've ever known was three, I helped make that where we got up to two. I don't think that right now they have but two. I broke the thing in seventy-four, we're at 2001, two in seventy-eight and we're at two now. [Laughing]

FOSL: We're about out of time but I just . . . so I might as well stop the tape right here but

CRENSHAW: That's fine.

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

END OF INTERVIEW