CHRIS GEORGE: This is Chris George working for the Kentucky Civil Rights Project
on the Movement to End Segregation in Kentucky. I am interviewing today Mrs. Gale Cherry of Princeton, Kentucky. Could you please give me some personal information about yourself?GALE CHERRY: I am fifty-four years old and, uh, grew up in Princeton; and left
for thirty-five years while my husband was in the Navy. And I went to college, and then returned here, uh, in ninety-three to take up residence as retirees.GEORGE: Where were you educated at?
CHERRY: Western Kentucky . . .well, Limestone College for Women in Jackson,
South Carolina, and then Western Kentucky University. And I received my Master's Degree from the University of Louisville in 1970.GEORGE: Do you have any siblings?
CHERRY: I have a half-brother.
GEORGE: Could you give me the name of your parents?
CHERRY: I--they were Mr. and Mrs.--well, Harold Rudd and Dixie Harris Rudd.
GEORGE: You're married?
CHERRY: Yes.
GEORGE: Who's your husband?
CHERRY: Repres--Mike Cherry [Laughing--Mike Cherry] and we've been married for
thirty years this last year.GEORGE: And do you have any children?
CHERRY: We have one son who's nineteen years-old, and he's a freshman at Centre
College in Danville, Kentucky.GEORGE: Are you involved in any type of community activities?
CHERRY: I'm on the Area Development District Board for my seventh year, and
President of the Regional Mental Health Board for four years; and Foster Care Review Board, inter-agency counselor. I'm an Elder at the Presbyterian Church here, and on the Board of Bright Life Farms; and that's probably enough to talk about. [Laughter]GEORGE: Okay . . .
CHERRY: There's more but I can't remember. [Laughing]
GEORGE: Primarily what I'm looking at is--interested in is the integration of
the local school here from bringing of Dotson students into Caldwell. Could you reflect back on any memories that you have of that time?CHERRY: Many, many memories and all of them positive. I think there was tension
but I think that tension was caused more by us trying to develop something new, something we were not used to; something that had not been done in this county. And for most of us, that meant that it was the first time that it had been done in our lives.GEORGE: Were there any people that, you know, encouraged this, that really
helped the process along?CHERRY: When I think back about it, I think almost everyone did, uh, strangely
enough. But I don't remember any negative comments from anyone. I think it was concern that it go smoothly. Uh, I think Bill Brown, who was our principal at the time, and Fred Clayton, who was the football coach, were instrumental in . . .in helping this to go smoothly.GEORGE: Okay. Had you--prior to integration--had you had any contact or were you
all around other black children?CHERRY: Well, that's interesting, too. I think maybe my experience was a bit
different. My father was Chief of Police here in town, and I can remember from a--he used to baby-sit me at the jail a lot--and not only that but . . . Shall I be really very frank about it?GEORGE: Be very frank.
CHERRY: Well, I think one of the fun--one of the things, I remember us going
many times up into the black community, and he drank a lot and so most of the illegal alcohol was-- [laughing] a guy named Dude Carter up in [laughing] the black area town. And so we were--I don't know, we were in and out. There was a gentleman that was in jail a lot, and I called him Uncle, I remember. And we would visit him when he was ill. And my father, I don't remember him ever, uh, saying anything derogatory about black people. And I--I remember witnessing him interacting a lot and always feeling that he was interacting on an equal level. And so I think I came into this situation with a feeling that everybody was equal.GEORGE: But you were aware of the differences?
CHERRY: Oh, absolutely. Because, again, the courthouse, there were drinking
fountains for blacks and whites, the bathrooms were segregated. The movie theater was segregated. Uh, and of course, the churches were but that was . . . that still continues today . . .GEORGE: Right.
CHERRY: Because you usually go to church around where you are living and so forth.
GEORGE: I know in some other areas there were several racist organizations as
well as organizations for blacks who wanted to promote integration. Were there any such organizations as a Citizens Council or anything in this area that you were involved with?CHERRY: Not that I was ever aware of. I honestly believe that both black and
white in this community really wanted this to work out with no, uh, with no incidences of any kind. I think they must have had to feel that way or there would have been incidences in some way. But I don't know remember the parents of any of our, of my friends ever saying anything negative. There was concern but I think that was as much of not knowing what to expect.GEORGE: Are you aware of any type of plans that were put into place to integrate
their schools? Were there any such plans or anything on paper to lay out how the process would happen or did it just happen?CHERRY: Not that I was aware of. There must have been, and I think my parents'
age group--which Mr. Brown was a part of, the principal--I'm sure there was a way that they wanted, they went about doing it; but I don't know what that was. And I don't even know who would know.GEORGE: Could you recall how segregation in Kentucky was and what was it like?
CHERRY: Well, as I say, yes, it was not uncommon--it depended on--I remember a
lot of times the word nigger being used. And sometimes it was used almost as a familiar--almost not as a derogatory term. It was a very--particularly with country people, strangely enough. It was never--it was used like black would be today in my estimation of the time. And when I look back on it, people who were respected; that word was used for them and it was in an interderogatory way, also. But, it would seem to be the thing but it was never used in my house, and any of my family would never use that term. Uh, and integration, and everything was just totally separated. I don't--you went to--there weren't any restaurants even here then but, of course, there was no integration at all.GEORGE: I know from folklore that one of the things that helped here was the
sports . . .CHERRY: Absolutely.
GEORGE: Could you expound a little bit on how that really helped?
CHERRY: Well, I think along . . .it helped Owen in a thousand ways but in the
initial phase I think not only--and I think the men were the most interested in sports. I think they were excited about the potential of [laughing] our team here because of the integration aspect; ‘cause Dotson had a wonderful team. And so I think in a way, that was probably a very helpful thing with the adults. And, as high school students, that was always a big thing for us, too, and it was an exciting thing to watch. And there was a new fire, I think, that came into the teams because the potential was really obvious early on and everybody was excited about the teams, both basketball and football. And we didn't say, "Well, we're excited about the white team and the black team." [Laughing] It was--we were excited about the team. And, and we had such a neat people, the sports people were just great. I think that Marvin Copeland had plenty ( ), and some of the things--when we won the state championship, he was quoted in the Louisville Courier-Journal as saying--they asked him how he could get up and get these passes so easily--and he said--and this was a time when deodorant was being, on television, was being commercial, a lot of commercials were being made. And there was something about a new deodorant that wasn't sticky, and he said, "I'm using that new deodorant that's non-sticky." And, you know, just clever things like that all the time that were going on. And you have to look, too, at the people, that we . . .that were integrated into the white school. I can only say now that everyone who came and is a senior, anyway was an exceptional person. Your mother was a wonderful lady, she continues to be very gracious, very elegant. Uh, I think of--and see, she was a ( ), so I think that was . . .it was tough; [laughing] when you think back, that was a very tough place to be. Uh, the men who came--there were five in our class--I guess all but one did—White--he is my own age, I can't think--Leslie. I don't remember whether he played ball but all the other, all the rest of them played ball of one kind or the other. They were all beautifully mannered . . . of course, all of us were better mannered [laughing] at that time than it seems to me that people are today. But, just an exceptional group of people to begin with.GEORGE: So you really believe that the fact that all of these . . .there were no
trouble-makers in the bunch and that they were all people who just helped the process as well and just kind of fitted in very well?CHERRY: Uh-huh. Yeah, I really do. When I think about that, I think about how
exceptional that that happened. The other thing was that we know there were other people integrated into the black system were so small that there was no sense of threat to the white community which could have caused, had it been a large group, of course, then there would have been more agitation.GEORGE: Were you aware of at the time--I know that in sixty-three and
sixty-four, when it happened in ( ); there have been other areas, a special one that comes to my mind is Sturgis ( ) where they had experienced violence. Were any of those things in your mind as this came about, was what happened in Little Rock going to happen here? What happened in Sturgis going to happen here?CHERRY: Yeah, I think all of that was in my mind because we had been
saturated--the media had saturated--in every aspect about those kind of experiences. I think that that was one of the reasons. We were later in integrating here. Now I don't know if that was by design, I'm sure that it was by design, I don't know what the rationale for it was. Whether it was resistance or whether it was fear or what was going on. But I think there was a concerted effort not to have the same kind of experiences and they learned probably from those experiences. And when you talk about the possibility of some preparation for this, it would be interesting to talk to people who were in the process, that process, and see how it was prepared, what their thinking was in terms of that.GEORGE: Were you aware . . .
CHERRY: I think we were almost--those of--I think a lot of people, a lot of
white people, felt very badly about what had happened. And a lot of us saw the injustice of it. We were horrified by the kinds of things we were seeing. And that in some way, us being later, having seen all the negative that happened, it may have been really good in that we saw what we did not want to happen here and the preparation for it. That helped prepare us for what happened.GEORGE: Were you aware of anyone that opposed the process that, you know, was
very outspoken, and I don't want this to ( ) but . . .CHERRY: No, I really . . .I would not . . . I think there was a, there was a
concern, there was a fear about it. Not a fear of the integration itself, but a fear of some incident occurring that would cause of a confrontation of some sort. But nobody, I recall, ever saying anything, not wanting it.GEORGE: Speaking of civil rights, who were some of your civil rights heroes?
CHERRY: Well, I was in love with Julian Bond. [Laughing] You have to think . . .
he was gorgeous young man at the time. This, at the time, still in some ways, later on I had the opportunity to know some of them. The new Black Panthers--of course, they weren't exactly heroes, but they were in a way because when I was in graduate school is when all of that occurred. And, you know, I had dinner one night, gosh, in Chicago with, uh--he drowned--Whitney Young. And, I don't know, we had had an opportunity in graduate school to get to know a lot of these people and, of course, he was an exceptional man. But at the high school time, we weren't worldly enough to even, at least I don't remember any quote, black heroes or anybody who . . .Martin Luther King, and I'm not sure of the time table on that even. He'd emerged at that time, I think.GEORGE: I know my Mom has told me that she really didn't know a lot about the .
. . of the people and the events going on outside of Kentucky. Would you say that you were in the same situation that you just really didn't know what was happening in Mississippi or Alabama?CHERRY: Yeah, I think at that time, yes. And the other thing is that in a small
town I had been exposed to a lot of black people, mostly older women. Uh, my father had some African men who were his friends, and I behaved, I mean, they kept me in line in addition. I mean, they did not work for me but when I was around, I was always expected to be very respectful of them and often I would talk to them. One worked for a friend of mine and one worked at the country club and they--I mean, Ms. Mamie was terribly supportive of me when I was young. [She] gave me attention when I needed it, slapped me around when I needed. And, uh, uh -- who's my groom, grooms--Linda May, did the same. It would have never to occurred to me to say anything other than something respectful to either of those ladies. And so my experience was very positive.GEORGE: So would you say your exposure to black people has really broadened your
horizons and in a lot of ways helped you go through this experience differently than maybe some who had not?CHERRY: Oh, I think so. And in my life, in general, whenever I've had a really
bad time, it's always been somebody black who's come to my rescue because I think there is a depth of understanding of pain and understanding of all kinds of things that would never . . . that a lot of white people have never experienced. So I can say in my whole life, it started young and it has continued in my life.GEORGE: Now, as you went to college . . .where did you first attend college?
CHERRY: In South Carolina, interestingly enough.
GEORGE: Were there any organizations such as SNICK or SCLC or NAACP on the
campus where you were at?CHERRY: No, I was on . . . it was a very small girl's school and it was in the
home of a town where the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux of South Carolina lived. It was a rough mill town in northern South Carolina. But it was like going back a hundred times, a hundred years in time; because we would have these sit-down dinners and the doors would swing open and black men would come in with these big trays. And one of the men there was Polish, one of the professors. I would have stayed there because I was going to major in biology at the time, but the Headmistress started around town that he was a communist. So it was--so all these people were pelting his house with things, it was not only blacks, [laughing] it was anybody who was at least, you know, anything they could, I don't know, it was just a strange, strange situation. But I decided I needed to leave there [laughing] and total segregation there, much more so that what we were used to here.GEORGE: So with the Grand Dragon being there, I guess there was a very active Ku
Klux Klan organization there?CHERRY: I assume but I never, you know, I never did run into that. I just
remember people saying that that was the case.GEORGE: And you came to ( )?
CHERRY: Western Kentucky University with one of my classmates from high school.
GEORGE: Now were there SCOC or SNICK or anything?
CHERRY: Nah. Not that I . . .[laughter]. I mean, if it was . . . but again, I
think our classmates were some of the first to integrate sports at Western if I'm not mistaken.GEORGE: I do believe the whites may have ( ) the first to play basketball there
. . .CHERRY: Basketball? Okay, and I doubt there was any football integration prior
to that. And of course, Greg was there and Trent and they were also outstanding and, again, the same situation where they ( ), it made integration a lot more easy. But everything was still segregated in terms of sororities.GEORGE: Earlier you mentioned--before we started interviewing--about our local
movement here to restore some of the black history. Could you mention it briefly for me?CHERRY: There is, in our county, there are two facilities. One was a church and
school. It was a church and school, the school burned and the church was used as a school in Fredonia. The other one is the ( ) Chapel School here in Greenup County. Wonderful buildings and I know some people in the community have been working a long time to try to get these recognized and that's finally happening. And I think it's going to be wonderful. And we'll tie that in to the tobacco warehouse because many of the blacks in Fredonia work, over three hundred work in tobacco warehouses. I do remember one incident that occurred which I think is kind of funny if you want . . .GEORGE: Okay, go ahead.
CHERRY: I think one of the big concerns was that black men, they're going to run
away with white women for some reason [laughing] or do something drastic, nobody knew exactly what it was. But one of the young black men who was, I think, a sophomore at the time, started calling up one of the senior girls. Well . . . and he even told her who he was [laughing], now when I think back to it, it was handled beautifully because normally when--and this girl had gone with this guy forever and ended up marrying him—but--and normally, what the guys, what the white guys would have done was have a big fight out in the school yard; I mean that is the way those things were settled. But in this case, two of the black seniors were called into the Principal's office and they were told what the situation was. It was suggested to them that they speak with this young man and so he did cease and desist. Which I thought was interesting when you think back about it because it was handled in a more mature way than most of this kind of boy-girl situation would have been handled. And I think that gives us an example of how, uh, what an effort there was to keep things calmed down. Our Senior Prom, see we didn't have a Senior Prom because it was, it was, a concern of the parents was that a black guy would dance with a white girl [laughing]--big deal. But at the time, it was--I mean, it just was not done. And so, they had a Cabaret for us and it was wonderful. The teachers, the football coaches, they really put themselves out. It was beautifully done, and they danced and had ballerina costumes on. I mean they really made fools of themselves. [Laughing] But we loved it. But they tried in everyway to make it as normal as they could without . . .and we had a picnic one day at a farm, to make it as . . . without setting it up so that anything possibly happen. I think they were probably, humph, overcautious but in a way it was a good thing for the first year. It set it up so that we got through the first year and nothing drastic happened so then the next year it was easier, I think, for everybody.GEORGE: Did the local paper, do you recall any type of coverage in the local
paper saying this is coming or. . . .CHERRY: I don't think so, do you? Of course, I don't know whether I was reading
the local paper. Was there any ( ) [laughing].UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Yes, it was uh, a small article in the Princeton Leader at
the time saying that twenty-three black families had signed a petition for their children to attend classes in the Fall at Caldwell County High School. But other than that, I don't think it was no big deal, you know, no big headlines or anything. If I remember, it was a very small section and it was just. . . . that's why I think your suggestion was, that they worked out all kinds of things prior to the ( ) uh, I'm just not aware of it. Uh . . .GEORGE: So that tells me that the newspaper wasn't promoting one side or the
other, it just said this was happening. Were there -- I know in some places they use the churches as messengers either to promote or showed us against integration -- would that be the case in the church that you attended at the time?CHERRY: Oh, Lord no, I mean, no [laughter]. We spent ten thousand dollars--our
church--our national church, contributed ten thousand dollars to the Angela Davis Defense Fund. Now, that, that was quite radical at the time. You don't even remember Angela Davis most probably but, uh, you know--we were a very, no, no, we were a very liberal church if you will anyway, and a very personal and ( ) kind of church. So it was not--I do suspect that there was probably a lot of interaction between the ministers. You see I don't even know if the black ministers were involved in the Ministerial Association at that time. Don't think so. So I don't know that they did a lot of talking back and forth, but I'm sure . . . I don't remember any churches coming out against. . . .like I said, but I was maybe just deaf and dumb, don't think, I don't know.GEORGE: Could you briefly compare and contrast the way the attitude--since you
went to South Carolina shortly after this and came back to Kentucky--could you compare and contrast the difference in the attitudes, just general society in the way black were treated in Kentucky and maybe the way they were treated in South Carolina?CHERRY: Uh, I, I didn't come in contact with that many black, interesting
enough, black people in South Carolina. I was appalled at the poverty level in the low part of South Carolina, the Low Country. I did make a trip down that way. We had poverty here but we didn't have anything at all that was that. . . . my roommate, we had a woman that worked with them that had been there for years and she again, she ruled that roost [laughing] in many ways. It was strange thing, they were near as far along, let me put it that way, as we were up here. I don't think it would be considered integrating the way they did ( ).GEORGE: Were there any books or articles, films, speeches or anything that has
influenced your thinking about race relations?CHERRY: Not at that time. Now, now since then it would be impossible to even
comment on that because there have been so many. Again, it was a part of the sixties and early seventies when everything was really beginning to mix up. My best friend was black when I went to work for the first time, and her and I shared an office. But it was still eerie kind of traveling around, and then ( ) we have guys, ( ) Alexander, he and I traveled a lot in the group in social work organizations. There was also a lot of black and white mixing up but it was still kind of "iffy" to drive around in parts of the state with a black man. We use to laugh about it nervously [laughing], both the black man and me, if he happened to be a black. But we were all over that, the city of Louisville in the West end and East end. An awful lot of mixing at that point. Things have changed drastically from the late sixties and early seventies, in that integration thing. It became commonplace in my estimation. It was a jump, it wasn't a smooth thing, it was a massive move.GEORGE: Could you--earlier you mentioned that you had had an opportunity to meet
Black Panthers and several civil rights leaders through your travels -- did any of them ever mention, you know, their feelings about how. . . why they did what they did and how it affected their thinking?CHERRY: I think, well, it's a no-brainer [laughing] why they did what they did,
obviously. Their courage had been raised but they got their ( ) again, not in high school, but later on, had been raised. They were really angry and for the first time they felt safe, I think, in expressing that anger. I, I. . . .one of my friends that I shared an office with, Harold Huggins, grew up in New York and he was one of, he was the only black family, his family in town. And, so he had. . . .all of his mannerisms were--if you can use quotation marks--"white, northern" [laughing]. I mean they were northern, they were very alien to them down here. And, he talked so odd to me a lot of times about going into restaurants and having to go back and eat in the kitchen or not being able to find a motel room. And that sounds so bizarre now to people who are listening but there were no black. . . .I mean, you had to go to a black motel or hotel, and it was something that as white people we never thought about. I never thought about at all and it just made me cry for Harold who was an elegant, and I'm sure his family was the same. I knew his brother and they were all, you know, just exceptional people and for them to have to go, or anybody to have go through a kitchen to go sit in the back. And he was just amazed at it. When it first happened to him, he couldn't, he could not understand it because that had not been the case when he grew up, you know.GEORGE: Could you recall on the local level the first time that any blacks
possibly obtained a political office here, in local government?CHERRY: I can't remember but I guess, uh, it's been there for a long time,
years, years, and years. I don't remember who the first one was. Uh, I remember when the first women came on the city council and that preceded. . . .and that was a big deal. My father was mayor at the time and he asked two women to run on his council. And then [laughing] so that, so then, and I can't remember when the first blacks came on but they. . . .I know Charles Thompson, seems like there was somebody . . . was Bennie Miller, oh yeah, so a long time back while I was gone for all those years. But that seems common and this town is exceptional in a lot of ways like that. Uh, in that we all interact, there is a close interaction with a lot of families around here, uh, it seems to me. And the political people, now there was always. . . .one of the four magistrates is black and two of our city councils are black and ( ).GEORGE: There is a question here, you spoke about the women. There was some
people upset that the women were running for the city council?CHERRY: Well, it just hadn't been done [laughing]. It had never been suggested
before, you know, and it is the only reason we had a woman as a magistrate for the first time and that was four years ago.GEORGE: Were there any type of women's movements in this town?
CHERRY: Women have always kind of run this town, uh, in a back,
behind-the-scenes way and I don't know of any . . . there was some very strong black women's clubs and white women's clubs in this town. And a lot of what was ever done in this town was done because of those women's groups, and they struck the fear into the hearts of a lot of a lot of politicals [laughing]. And so I think in that respect, they have ( ). They. . . .I don't know that they'd ever felt that put down in this town [laughing].GEORGE: Overall how do you evaluate the success of Kentucky's civil rights
struggle from 1930 to 1975? What were some of the successes, maybe some of the failures, and maybe even some things that still need to be accomplished in this area today?CHERRY: I think there's a tremendous amount that needs to be accomplished. One
is for both black and white youth to understand what happened and to remember how far things have come and to respect the people who . . . often I've heard them called Uncle Toms; but that is not the case. I mean, you think what a groundbreaking thing all of this was, and you really can't imagine the young people fighting for tremendous change occurring in a very short time, what courage it took to do that; and a lot of whites were involved in the process, too. To me, the best times were, as I said, in the sixties and seventies. I can remember going into west Louisville and seeing Tina Turner and going to Joe Palmer's, it was a big jazz place there. It was not uncomfortable at all for blacks and whites to mix all over the place. It was a very dynamic time in our history, in the black history it was a big deal. And a lot of really strong civil rights movements, uh, one in particular there was one area that had a pair of boots hanging over the assembly house door [laughing] to symbolize what the white man had, you know, give up. Uh, people were fighting, militant, they were exited, but it was moving somewhere and I don't see that kind of thing happening now. It's almost as if we've reached a plateau and that's about it. I think there is a. . . .it's more acceptable to, in many ways, a lot of things are more acceptable. I'm for ( ) myself. . .END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE
BEGIN SIDE TWO TAPE ONE
CHERRY: Well, I think part of what shows you how close, we all feel very proud
in our class, we have a very close high school class. We all feel very proud of the fact that we were the class who integrated. And, I think, we're still close. I think of the five black people in our class, three have remained very close, Pat Dummond, and Scotty and Greg Smith have all, you know, we all call and write and stay in touch with everybody. Uh, and I think that experience of integrating made us that way. I don't think any of the classes -- of course, we won the State football championship and went to the quarter finals in basketball -- but I don't think, uh, we would be anywhere near this close if we had not gone through that experience together.GEORGE: While there's more than a couple of occasions, how do you feel knowing
that you all are a part of local history for that? How does that make you feel?CHERRY: Oh, I'm very proud of it. I'm just. . . . I, I take great pride in the
fact that we all managed to do it [laughing] and remain close and set a good example for the classes that came after us. I mean we really are close. We grieve with each other and we care about each other. I know good and well that we might have been that way if it hadn't been for integration, also.GEORGE: Is there anything else that you would like to mention?
CHERRY: Oh, I could go on forever but it would probably be irrelevant.
[Laughing] So. . . .no, I don't, I don't, but I think. . . . I think this county was probably an exception to what happened in other parts of the state. I would be interested to know that, to know how we compared in terms of the validity of our integration with others.GEORGE: Speaking of other areas, a question just jumped into my mind. What went
on in some of the other counties around here? How soon after the, say, Trigg or Christian integration did it come out around here?CHERRY: I don't have any idea. I don't. . . . we didn't get out of the county
much, [laughter] I mean, interesting enough. I remember a lot of stuff in Christian County but they always had such a strong black school there that I don't know, I don't know exactly when they integrated. I don't think it was when we did. I mean we were totally absorbed in ourselves at the time. And I can remember, we were exposed . . . we went to the state tournament and I remember a lot of black players, like Wesley Unseld, for example, was up there when we went to the state tournament and that's been neat because the rest of my life, he has been with the Washington. . . . the Bullets, or whatever. I don't know, it was just an opening to all kinds of things but I don't remember anything specific about these other counties. Oh, I think one of the negative things that happened during integration was the breaking, the diluting of the black community. I think a lot of strong men, a lot of strong women were good role models at that time and I think when integration occurred a lot of the black institutions maybe that were, were a part of that strong segregated black community were deleted when integration occurred. A lot of the strong code of ethics and so forth, and so on. It has eroded in some ways in all of society but I just hate to see that happen. I think another indication of the way . . .This interview ended without additional comment apparently due to mechanical problems.
END OF INTERVIEW
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