Oral History Interview with Thelma Johnson

MAXINE RAY: This is Maxine Ray conducting an interview for the Civil Rights Project sponsored by the Kentucky Oral History Commission of the Kentucky Historical Society. I am interviewing Ms. Thelma Johnson here at her home in Henderson, Kentucky. Today's date is October 21, 2000.

RAY: Now, Ms. Johnson, will you give me your full name please?

THELMA JOHNSON: Thelma Banks Johnson.

RAY: Will you tell me when and where you were born?

JOHNSON: [Laughing] May 8, 1909.

RAY: Where were you born at?

JOHNSON: Georgia.

RAY: How long have you lived in Henderson?

JOHNSON: I came here in 1946.

RAY: Would you give me your parents' names please?

JOHNSON: Mary and Harry Banks.

RAY: What is your occupation, or what was your occupation?

JOHNSON: I was a Home Economist, working as an extension out of the University of Georgia at one time--ten years--and also out of the University of Kentucky.

RAY: Have you held any other kind of jobs, any other jobs?

JOHNSON: Just ordinary jobs. Between school, oh yes, I worked a lot of places. I worked in restaurants, I delivered babies, done anything so I wouldn't have to do the rest of my life.

RAY: Well, how many years did you teach?

JOHNSON: In extension? Thirty-four years.

RAY: That's a long time. Can you tell me about any of your experiences in your teaching?

JOHNSON: Well, let's go way back to Georgia . . .

RAY: All right.

JOHNSON: Let's go way back and you'll see how old I am. At one time, the government had too much cotton on hand, so they decided that they would give poor people mattresses according to the number in your family. A certain number you get one mattress, a certain number two mattresses, three mattresses, so forth. They give you fifty pounds of cotton for ticking. Now it was up to the extension workers to see that these were done. Now, there were white home agents and black home agents, okay. They got--they rented Singer sewing machines and, of course, I knew how to take a Singer apart and clean it and all that kind of stuff. I had charge of showing women how to make to ticks. In other words, we made up some ticks to start with. When a family came in, the man would take the tick that was already made up, and they would take him out where he got fifty pounds of cotton. They stuffed it in there, and in the meantime I'm showing the wife how to make a tick to replace the one that she has been given. Okay, now everything was separate, so naturally the whites came first and got theirs. Very few of them got more than two ticks. Now, they were charging fifty cents--that was for the needle ‘cause a lot of times they break needles, you know--okay, mattress is finished and all that and you go home. We got through with the whites, now it's time for the blacks to come in; so the white agents decide that, well, I don't think I'll be here when the blacks come to get this. First thing they did, they upped the price, they went up to a dollar for the needle. Okay, most of the blacks got three mattresses because they had such large families but that wasn't the biting thing. She brought in a sixteen-year-old white girl to put her in charge of the project. Okay. Now, when I told my black supervisor what had happened, go ahead and take charge . . . in other words, she had her there to collect the money, what she had been doing. See, she's been collecting the money while I'm showing them how to do the ticks. So I knew now--and I had better sense than that--you know, so I just didn't say anything. But we had some teachers, you know, a lot of teachers they were working and getting thirty and forty dollars a month; and schools closing at six months and five, and they were glad to get a little extra money. So they were, they made enough to pay them something. And I remember I had a teacher there paying she and this child, this sixteen-year-old, I don't know what it was about it, I don't know whether she wanted to cause me . . . . something there bothered me, something about it. And this white child reported it to this white agent and she came to me very quietly and said, “You know, I suspect it would be better to get rid of that person because of something she'd said and she's a teacher and I wouldn't want to hurt her on her job." In other words, “Iif you don't get rid of her here so she doesn't do what that sixteen-year-old tells her, I'm going to see that she loses her job.” So I told the girl, she quit. Well, those were the kind of things. And yet that same woman later on, we used to go down to--this was in ( ), Georgia--we used to go down to Albany, ( ) college. And we used to drive down there to school at night; two carloads of us would go down there, to study. On the way back, I pulled out to pass a car and about time I got almost even, the car makes a left turn right in front of me. So I know enough to know to turn and go the way she's going, so I turned and went that way also. And, of course, she just kind of bounced off the side road down there. All right, we all stopped. I got a carload of teachers and there is a carload behind us. Well, they all stopped and there's a little damage to the white woman's car, though. Oh, and she was hollering and this, that, and the other. And meantime, other white folks were gathering, and they don't want to hear me dispute a white woman's word. Meantime, finally the policemen came and the guys were standing out there talking, and I finally asked them did I have any protection out there. And they said, “Nobody is going to bother anybody.” So they finally sent them on their way. But the sheriff came and carried me to jail . . .

RAY: To jail?

JOHNSON: Yes, [Laughter] Well, I was not going to agree to fix her car when it wasn't my fault, you see. So I wouldn't agree to fix her car so nothing he could do but arrest me. And she was charging, you know. And so, then he carried me on to jail and there was a person in my car who could drive and I told her to go to--and, “No,” they said, “We going with you.” The other car went on to town. Okay, they went on down there and they sat outside the jail. They carried me in there, and I didn't see why he had to lock me . . . ( ). [Laughing] So he put me in the jail but he did put me in a cell. Well, I'm in there, and the folks in jail are so happy. I saw one colored woman she said she done killed a man. I said, "Oh, my Lord!" [Laughter] Well anyway, he went on home . . .

RAY: How old were you?

JOHNSON: I guess I was probably in my thirties, I imagine, when I . . . anyway, I'm in jail. Now the other car goes home, and I've got some of the--they went and told the other folk why the other car was not there. They went and got--I was a Methodist--went and got my pastor, they got the pastor of the Baptist Church; and they had the mailman--the black mailman who carried mail to whites--and they had his daughter in my car; so they went and got him and he went and got up some lawyers. There were some lawyers there--never will forget the name--Ford, Ford, and Ford, father and son; and they had a son who was a lawyer down in that time. He got that man up and he told him, said, "Will you go down there and get my son and he will go and see about them." On the way out I think they took all the money they had taken up in church that Sunday and carried that with them. And they tell jokes about it, “Say they stopped at the top of the hill and bought a cigar and stuff.” [Laughter] The man's wife, who drove my car, ran a poolroom and he's the moneyman in the bunch; and they said he laid that car out. And they came down there, and when they got there, they went and got this white lawyer. And then when the jailer found out who he was, the jailer just gave him the key. The lawyer came and they took me on out and they took me on back home. In the meantime, time for the court; the meeting--now this is how bad things were--when I had to go to court--when my lawyer came up from down there to talk to his daddy, you know, and they came, [Laughing] I think they came by my . . .I went by the daddy's house--anyway I had come from church and they said, “When you come down here, don't dress like that, don't dress like that.” Said, “Don't wear whole suits in there, skirt and a different blouse, don't be so matched up.” [Laughing] Okay, and the next thing they said to do, said, “Get a white agent to come down here and sit with you.” Okay--now this is my lawyer--now don't have any nail polish on and all of that. And I went down there, she went with me; and I have never--the lawyer that was prosecuting me, he had it made, you know. He didn't have any, he didn't have any idea that he was going to lose. So he started out, "Yes, this nigger woman come running down here and running her mouth no doubt and ran over” . . . : You know, told about how I did this woman, ran her off the road. Just lies. ( ) she said, “I know good and well you didn't” . . . the things that I said, I didn't say, you know. But he's just carrying on and he just raved all about this blah, blah, blah. And then my lawyer got up and he told them, "Now, I've put a lot of trouble in this case, a lot of time in it because I knew I had a hard job to follow." And said, “Here's Ms. So and So, a well-known white woman that everybody knows and everything.” And by the way, he had told me when they ask you a question, don't say anything that would amount to calling her a liar as far as the jury is concerned. He told me all that. Okay, said, “Now I knew I had this fine white woman and how I have helped provide this poor nigger girl”--my own lawyer had to call me a nigger--that won the case for him. But he got through and he went on and telling and all of that. See, here's this white woman sitting here, you know, with me and all of that and she didn't have to go back that afternoon. But anyway, and all the black folks in the town--Banks and me hadn't married yet--Banks said that we ought to go ahead and pay it. "They ain't going to make . . . she can't beat that white woman in court, might as well go on . . . " You know, all this, that and the other. But I was just, I guess, I was just ornery at that stage. I knew I was not going to admit to doing that when I didn't do it. But I won the case, he won the case, won it after all, and everybody's surprise. And the thing about it, when it was estimated what she wanted, enough out of it to buy herself a new car. But here's something else that they didn't know. My bosses, my black bosses at the state level, I didn't have anything but a car and I've got a mortgage on the car. So if I'd lost the case, it wouldn't mean anything because they would have to pay him, you know, have to pay off the first mortgage. So that was some of the encounters that you ran across back there and those were some of the things that happened and even after integration. They were all kind of smooth things going on for them to still maintain the control, because I can remember right here since I've been in Henderson they started well, work with the low income families. And what they did, they started . . . they wrote and asked us -- specialized areas what they were getting into. Before we get to that--what would you like to do if you want to specialize? I’ve always been interested in food. My first choice was Foods and Nutrition, and my second choice was Home Ec. Okay, everybody fill this out. When they got through, they--all the white agents got what they wanted. They gave me low-income families and that wasn't even in the offering. Well, that didn't bother me because I was working with them anyway. But the point was when they got ready to assign it out, they made this mistake, they went to the white agents and told them what they got. But when they got ready to tell me what I had--I worked in two counties--they had me, they made me come to the office; so the white agent I'd be working with telling me. I sitting here looking all glum and she talking about, did you so and so, ( ) I didn't have anything to be pleased about. "Well you will be working with the white women too.” “Well,” I said, “I guess I must since the white women are going to be working with the black women.” She still didn't say anything. She realized that she'd made a mistake somewhere. So that afternoon I had to go down to the other county to let that agent hear what she told me. So when she got there, it really got messed up because that agent down there was so anxious to get me under her wing. "Oh yes, Thelma, you can do that because if you . . . yes, you could be working with all of us ‘cause now then you could help me because I've got some women who's been wanting to study refinishing of furniture; and you can just get in there with them and just work everywhere. [Laughing] Kind of work. [Laughing] And the supervisor no ( ) just did. No ( ), now we're not going to make . . .. And she realized then what it was going to be like and she stopped there with that. But then I could see what the agents were figuring, they were not going to leave me any responsibility so you could call me to come in there to do anything you wanted me to do. You could call me to do anything you wanted me to do so I didn't say anything. I made up my mind so when I came home, I got in touch with the state person and I told her I didn't like the deal they were cooking up for me over here and I wanted a conference at the state level. She gave it to me. However, she was not able to conduct it because she had a serious accident before the time and I thought to myself, is this an omen. What is this, you know, and I thought no, I'm going. I prayed over that thing and I went on anyway. I had to meet somebody else and I was telling them how this integration was going and how they had treated my women, and in other words, I took my women to a meeting and they went to different departments but I went to a meeting with the agents. And when the person, the person from the university, who knew me as well as you, she introduced everybody at that meeting but me. I didn't say a word and when it was over, I told a supervisor out there, I said, “I hope my women got better treatment than what I got because they introduced everybody in there but me.” And I didn't say anymore so that person that I spoke to went around and trying to find out who had charge of me. Well anyway, when I got to the state--I finally got to the state--and the woman in charge listened to what I was saying, and when I told her about how I was treated and . . . you can't imagine what she said. She said, "Well, I imagine that just . . . she just overlooked you." I said, “How in the world could she overlook me in a room full of white women. Well, that broke up the meeting. Everybody just kind of settled down, and finally they got to the person that had done that and she was a person that pretended she loved black people so well. And she was not able to tell them why, she said, "I certainly did and I don't know why I did it." Those were the kind of things you went through, you overlooked, and just ( ) but you knew deep down underneath there was always that desire to pin you under. And after I went into another meeting . . .

RAY: This meeting at the state level . . .

JOHNSON: At the state level . . .

RAY: Okay, well now at this time you are working for the University of Kentucky out of . . .

JOHNSON: Oh yes, I'm at the University of Kentucky now . . .

RAY: Now, the two counties that you worked in, were they in Kentucky?

JOHNSON: Henderson, yeah, if I hadn't been in Henderson, I wouldn't been at the state level.

RAY: Okay, Henderson and what was the other county?

JOHNSON: Daviess.

RAY: Daviess?

JOHNSON: That's Owensboro.

RAY: Yes.

JOHNSON: You see, I worked two counties. There were not enough blacks in one county to warrant having a worker here, and a black man asked for a worker here. And the man told them, “If I ever get another appropriation from there, I'll give it to you;” but then had to add Daviess County to it. Daviess County contributed nothing, and I think they finally gave Stanton or some such thing; but the county didn't give anything at all, it came from the government. See it is sent to the Land Grant College, and it's administered by your local universities. You see, that's happened, the way with extension, there's extension worker, somebody working with 4-H Clubs or farmers, it's all out of the Land Grant College but the money comes from the government. But that's how that was and now, of course, I was working here for the University. Well, they got all of that straightened out and finally they had to understand and then when they got it down to the low income families, they still tried to maneuver it so the person that had foods and nutrition would have say. I sat and listened and played crazy until they got to it. I said, "Well, you say I'm working with low income families," I said, “Now, when you talk about the person with Foods and Nutrition, where does that leave me?" And I was working with low-income families, I made them spell that out, take her out of that. But to see what they wanted to do, somehow they kind of wanted me to kind of report to her, which would have been incorporated into what she was doing in her report and I didn't mean to do that. So they finally got outright, they cut it lose, it was outright and I ended up being . . .[Interruption - telephone]

RAY: I'm breaking the tape for a telephone call. Sheri Smith is here and she will be asking questions also. Now we were talking about you getting your position as the Director of the Food and Nutrition . . .

JOHNSON: It ended up all the persons in this, my area who worked with low-income families sent their reports to me and I sent them in. Now, had even a problem there with my Supervisor. It was easily ended because I had learned then that I was going to tell it if there was a fault. And that was because of some of the workers. They sent lots of reports, reports, reports, reports. They sent out a lot of reports that had to be made and sent in, and I was having a meeting in Owensboro with those workers down there--and by the way, there were around thirty-two or thirty-three of them at one time that I had charge of--but anyway, they didn't want to make the reports. So I seen them sneaking around and talking to him ‘cause he was white, you know. They didn't want to make the reports, so I carried back the reports so he said, “What about all these reports?” I said, "Well, my supervisor said they would . . ." "Well, they didn't tell me they had to be made, and we're not going to make them and just don't make them; we're not going to make them." I said, “Okay,” ‘cause I knew they had to be made. I came home and threw in the fire and went on about my business. Two or three days, the University was calling about those reports and I told them what had happened. "Well, they just got to be in." They just begged me, I had to go and get to work, and had to do them backwards, you see, and that fixed them. They found out that they had to do them anyway. If they had of done them when they were supposed to, they wouldn't have had to do a lot of backtracking. But we had to do all of that and we got them in. And they got him told ‘cause he came back and apologized. We had no more problems with him. We kept him out of sight then because he was interfering with what we were doing. But the point was, he wanted to think he was the biggest guy. But it did end up that that was the way it was, and I ended up working with low income families. But at that time we went into the homes because they said we [were] doing it the wrong way, and that was what I was doing when I retired.

RAY: Do you remember the schools you went to, the schools you attended?

JOHNSON: Yes, so many of them. Yeah, I started in Georgia. The school I went to is out of existence now and I went to . . .I got my degree from Ohio State University. I also studied some classes over at ( ). . . just keeping, keeping up. And then there were other classes, I studied summer session at Cornell and at the University of Wisconsin and I believe those are ( ) those schools, all the schools there. I believe those are all.

RAY: Why did you become a teacher?

JOHNSON: Well, listen, when I was little the only people who came in contact other than family was a preacher and a teacher, and those were the people I had to look to. I looked up to teachers. I guess just out of there, I just always wanted to be a teacher because that was the woman that I saw doing something. And as I got older, that was about all a woman could get into out of ordinary work was teaching. Men would carry mail, that was their . . . other than working for themselves. It seemed to be only thing to do. It looked like--I just always wanted to teach and I kept studying, I still study, it's just a habit. And I just get in a habit, if I see something that's useful, I'm grabbing it but, I said, I never use this, why did I grab it, you know. But it just, I don't know, teachers were the folks I looked up to, I just wanted to be like them.

RAY: Okay, I understand you started the first 4-H Club here in Henderson?

JOHNSON: I started it because I was the first black extension worker.

RAY: Oh, uh-huh.

JOHNSON: Not that I didn't start the first black 4-H Club, but I was the first black worker here, you know. But there were white workers here that, that had them; but see I eventually even lost them when they integrated, they turned the 4-H over to the white workers and they finally drifted out of it all together.

RAY: Well, so this was not like where the 4-H is connected with any of the schools or just through the Extension Agency?

JOHNSON: No, that's part of the Extension, you see. Extension agents were the only ones that could organize the 4-H Club and that was the ( ). And while I worked with the homemakers and the 4-H'ers, I organized them. Yes, I met them at school because that is where I saw them; but now in Georgia, I could work with them at school but not in Kentucky. In Kentucky, you work through leaders, you see, you could organize them there but you couldn't . . .your leaders worked with them outside, and they had a lot of people, adults, who worked with them. Some worked with them at home and families, a lot of--a lot of teachers worked with them on the outside. Now the teachers would teach them . . .well, they would preside over the meetings even though as soon as I talked with them, I teach them parliamentary procedures and all of those kind of things; how to conduct a meeting and all that. And if they conducted a meeting ,and I wasn't there, the teacher would oversee it, you know, that kind of thing. But no, and that was one reason it wasn't as . . .the 4-H work for blacks was not as successful in Kentucky as it was in Georgia because of the way they operated. Now if you couldn't find a black person with the time to teach them after they're out of school, you see they had no leadership. I had to do it and if I could catch them around and if they would give me the ( ) to do it.

RAY: Now tell me about the Human Rights Commission. Are you a member of the Human Rights Commission or did you . . .

JOHNSON: I served as the Chairman of the Human Rights . . . I was on it in the beginning and I am trying to think, I don't remember, we had a mixture of black and white, of course, and I think was secretary for a while and eventually I did serve as Chairman of the Human Rights Commission for a couple of years because I remember when it was turned over to me. I'm trying to think . . .

RAY: Do you remember the year that it was turned over to you?

JOHNSON: No, I would have to go back and find records and all of that but Gayland Martin was . . . he used to come here a lot from the state,

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

RAY: Now, we were talking about the Human Rights Commission.

JOHNSON: Yeah, and I was Chairman of it. Anytime anything came to us for correction, we could do nothing about it. We always had to refer it to the state, they had somebody had to come and we couldn't handle--we couldn't handle a thing. We didn't handle a thing locally, so I didn't, I just I don't know. They always sent somebody, or it got sent away; there was never, you know, it was just pushed aside. We could never give anybody . . . if anybody came to us with something, nothing we could do about it, couldn't handle it locally. Reverend Bill was probably a member, we couldn't handle anything locally.

RAY: Okay, well I understand that you got a plaque for the Civil Rights Hall of Fame in the . . .was honored like that. Do you want to tell me a little about that?

JOHNSON: [Laughing] Well, Mr. Platt sent in information of what I had done and he is responsible for my . . .

RAY: Award?

JOHNSON: Yeah, well, I think, what did they call that? Being nominated. He nominated--I guess, he was responsible. I guess , I'm telling you the truth, I don't believe we have, we don't have a Human Rights Commission out here, I don't believe so.

RAY: All right.

JOHNSON: But this was done, I think, through the NAACP, I imagine. The nomination came from, through him, because that information he had, you know, already and was kind of easy to get. And I wasn't, I wasn't that sure that he . . . I didn't even realize that they would recognize you for being nominated. I just thought when you were nominated and you lost, that was the end of that. I was surprised when he brought this back but it seems that everybody who was nominated received that same recognition.

RAY: Do you belong to the NAACP or is the NAACP . . .

JOHNSON: Oh yeah. Now see what that means up there?

RAY: You've got a lot of plaques up there.

JOHNSON: Yeah, but look at the last one.

RAY: This one?

JOHNSON: What does it say?

RAY: In grateful appreciation for your generous contribution of one thousand dollars .

JOHNSON: Yeah, that means you above life member, that's the Golden Heritage life member. That's as far as you can go, I can't go any further. So you can see why the NAACP would ( ), yes.

RAY: When the NAACP began years ago, did you all have very many racial problems to confront then?

JOHNSON: I don't know, I probably joined it here. Well, when I joined it there were not too many life members; and when I discovered a white man was a life member, I got to pushing it so I pushed it up so percentage-wise. Henderson got more life members and they got a lot of them life members. And then after that, they kept sending--I felt when you were a life member, they would stop worrying you for money. Then they came this Golden Heritage and I said, “Well, I'm going to pay that and I'm going be through issuing money because to come to find out how they messed it up.” You remember when they changed heads not long ago, one person stopped donating; they got rid of that one and got a different one now. So now I'm a Golden Heritage life member of the NAACP. But I was grown when I joined the NAACP. Because, come to think of it, we're about the same age aren't we?

RAY: Well, yes . . .

JOHNSON: NAACP.

RAY: You and the NAACP are just about the same age . . .

JOHNSON: So I couldn't have started with them. [Laughter}

RAY: Well, I mean, [Laughter] I just thought maybe you may have started with this particular chapter here, you know, maybe started up this particular chapter here in Henderson.

JOHNSON: No, I didn't start . . . I joined the chapter. I don't know who is responsible for starting. Do you know, ( ) [Interruption. Unidentified person speaking] I don't know who started the first NAACP chapter. I just don't know, I haven't the slightest idea.

RAY: Well, let me ask you a little bit about your church life. Do you go to church?

JOHNSON: [Interruption -- someone speaking -- "She is the church.] No I'm not. All of my life, I've gone to church.

RAY: Do you belong to any of the church organizations or anything?

JOHNSON: I'm the treasurer of a missionary group, a circle. Well, I've been in a lot of things at the church, did a lot of drives, made a lot of money that come into that church through the things, ideas, that I gave them and carried them out.

RAY: What's the name of your church?

JOHNSON: Norris Chapel Baptist Church but I was reared in the Methodist Church. I didn't go there until I was grown, and it was no way in any church here and I got tired of going to Evansville. And I knew no point of going over there until I was too old and then join over here so I just joined. I had a lot of friends in the Baptist Church so I joined the Baptist Church and, of course, I had to be immersed. I hadn't been so I was baptized into Norris Chapel Baptist Church but I was ( ). [Laughter} And I've been there working ever since.

RAY: Do you remember any kind of racial prejudices or anything that you faced in any of the stores around here in Henderson?

JOHNSON: Henderson?

RAY: Yes, right here in Henderson,. Was there any kind of negative responses maybe to going into stores or trying to purchase or . . .

JOHNSON: Well, when I first came here there was a store -- I can't think of the name of it now -- well, the most expensive store in town where folks went and bought the fine things. [Interruption] Yeah, that was the name of it, Bohns. And a friend of mine who traded there a lot, I imagine it was ( ) or somebody, go into Bohns and open up you an account, go to Bohns and open up you an account. So, I went strolling into Bohns and when I went in I said, “I would like to speak to someone about opening an account.” So they sent be back, pointed me to the man -- I guess it was Bohns himself -- and when I went back and said to him that I was interested. "We're not opening a new account, not opening new accounts" I said, “Thank you.” I turned around and walked right on out. I went two doors away to Mann Brothers, or ( ) anyway. And I walked in there and I said, “I wanted to see about opening up an account.” And they said, “Yes.” They did ask who I was, and I told them I had just come to town and who I was working for and so forth and so on. And I don't know who, I don't know if I was talking to him or who it was. "Okay, open up an account of seven hundred dollars that's all she wants." You know how Mann was, you know; so I opened up an account at a different store altogether. The first man looked at my color, he didn't even want to know my name. So that's the only time I really notice anything because there wasn't that many stores, you know, to go into. But . . .

RAY: So integration came with like a smooth transition here in Henderson or was there any marches or sit-ins?

JOHNSON: Oh, they were here but I couldn't, as I told you, I couldn't participate in them, this is what I'm telling you..

RAY: Yeah, because you work for the government?

JOHNSON: No, they didn't allow you . . .they didn't even allow you run for public office then but now you can. But at the time I was in there, all you could do was vote but you couldn't express yourself. You couldn't advertise. If I am going to cook, I can't have Crisco in a Crisco can because the other company can tell the government you advertising for Crisco. You understand that? So I, no, I couldn't march, I couldn't sit, I couldn't do anything.

SMITH: Well, what did you think when you saw that kind of stuff on TV or heard about it, like all the sit-ins . . .

JOHNSON: Well, I knew what it was, it was going on here; but I knew with the job I had, if I wanted a job I didn't sit, and I needed a job more that I needed to sit.

SMITH: A lot of people didn't think it was going to accomplishment much. What did you think?

JOHNSON: I must of thought it was going to accomplish, I paid for other folks to go to Frankfort. I furnished money for things I couldn't do ‘cause I had to be with the movement, you know. I'm black, I had to be with it but at the same time I had to live also. So I contributed money for people who were going to Frankfort. I paid the way for somebody who couldn't afford to pay to go up there to do that.

SMITH: To demonstrate?

JOHNSON: Yeah. See, Anthony knows about that ‘cause he was head of it, you see. But I give it to him, but he wasn't going around and yelling out to everybody, you know, that that happened but it did. But I couldn't do that ‘cause the very folk I did it for would say you a fool to give up your job to do that and I knew that, too.

SMITH: What year did you get married?

JOHNSON: Oh my goodness. I was good and grown . . . .[Laughing] Oh, my first marriage ended in divorce. And I got married in, let's see, trying to think when I married Stalling. I have to go back and ( ) you know, all that stuff. But . . .

SMITH: Mr. Johnson, when did you marry Mr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: Yeah, that's what I'm trying to think. See, I left here. Married him before I left, and then came back and got the job right back; ‘cause I was leaving Henderson. See, I meant to leave Henderson.

SMITH: Because you're from Georgia?

JOHNSON: Yeah, and I went back to Georgia. I did go back, I signed a contract and went back. And before I left I met and married him but I had to go fulfill that contract. And so I did that and transferred back, and got the job back here ‘cause the person that followed me didn't work out; and as soon as I got them ( ) I reapplied to come back to work anywhere in the state, to get back in the state. And in the meantime, I got the same place back. Transferred back and forth, didn't have a break in service either way. But let me see, it would have had to be in the fifties because we built this house in sixty-two, and we had to marry in the fifties, probably in fifty-two, somewhere along there when we were married ‘cause we stayed in this house, we stayed up on Seventh Street.

SMITH: So he's from Henderson?

JOHNSON: Oh yeah, he was born and raised in Henderson.

SMITH: See I can't remember . . .

JOHNSON: Yeah, he was born, yeah, I'm sure he was. Yeah, he was born and raised in Henderson, I pretty sure he was.

RAY: What was your husband's name?

JOHNSON: Stalling.

RAY: Stalling?

JOHNSON: Uh-huh.

RAY: Let me ask you this. Did you hold any kind of city offices or anything here in Henderson?

JOHNSON: Ran for the Board of Education, that's all.

RAY: Did you . . . were you elected to it?

JOHNSON: Yeah.

RAY: How many years did you serve on that?

JOHNSON: Served eight years, you see, a term was four years . . .

RAY: Oh, so you served two terms?

JOHNSON: And I ran a second term. Didn't run a third term. Now I was on there eight years and I was chairperson four years.

RAY: Did you run into any kind or racial prejudices while you served on that?

JOHNSON: [Laughing] A very nasty one, one time--not from the people I was working with. You were seated in a U so to speak; and in the curve up there, the Superintendent with his secretary and the Chairperson sat. Well, it was, I think it was a white person here, I was here, and another white person on the right. Anyway, some one came -- your name was in front of you -- some white guy came in there to get an easement for something and he -- let me see what was it -- he talked, he said what he wanted to do. And he went around, I guess he spoke to everybody and he went around, everybody except me. Whatever he did, he looked over me just completely and got around and called names. There was something he did, though, that it made it known that he was not counting me at all, whatever it was, so they got ready to look at -- you had to go up to see the plans that he'd put down in front of the superintendent. But he had said something, he had addressed them some way another but he didn't recognize me at all; so when they all got up to go and look, I just still sat there, I stayed right where I was. I stayed right in my seat. And the Chairman of the Board didn't know what to do ‘cause I guess he pretty much like the one that was there. And I still sat there. I thought, “Well, I'm not here so why should I move.” And everybody, you could have heard a pin fall out there. Everybody got up and went up there, and finally the superintendent took over and told him who I was and ( ). I think he did, and backed up what he said but anyway he corrected him. And I said “I won't be as big a fool as he was so I thought”--I said, “Well, now I've got a closed mind then.” But I got up and went on up there and stood but everybody, I'm sure, knew I had a closed mind; but I just went on up and stood. That was one thing, and the other thing was I was the first black elected to public office but somehow it was maneuvered so that I was not publicly sworn in.

RAY: Oh, you weren't?

JOHNSON: They had me sworn in in chambers. The person who was elected along with me was not even there. I was sworn in in the chambers. Okay, that was all that went on and I guess--you see, every two years--you see, you know they don't change the Board all the same so when it got time, they elected two. I went in when the elected two, and the next time they were going to elect three. Okay, they elected three persons. Okay, when they were elected, the first night here comes the judge out in his robe and--she's still sheriff at the time by the way--the reason, ‘cause I brought her into it--he came out in his robe and swore them in and presented them with a certificate. And I sat there, I never felt so much like crying in my life. And he ( ) her, and I said, "I didn't get a certificate when I was sworn in." And what did he say? I don't know what he said but he said, "I'll issue you one." And I said just give it to the sheriff, you know, I just told him to send it to me by her. Instead, he comes out--if you will notice it up there--it shows that it wasn't done when it should have been done; but he came out here himself and went through it again. But you see, that was the difference, you see, they came out there, they got pictures all in the paper of him out there, and didn't even give me a certificate. I didn't even ask for a ( ). I suppose those . . . Now the teachers, oh, everybody was fine, you know, everybody was fine. They invited me out, I never got invited too much to their classes to talk to them, you know, I was very well received by the teachers. And I surprised the Superintendent. Well, he came to the meeting where they interviewed all of us, you know, how they call you and interview us. And I ran against a white doctor, by the way, and he was so sure that he was going to win, he didn't even show up where they did the interviewing by the newspaper, I mean, they had clippings of everything anyway. The Superintendent asked to come, he came, ‘cause he said--I'm perfectly frank--he said, “That he would naturally be voting for the lawyer because he was responsible for me being in town.” Well, you know, that's okay, that was all right. And I asked him some questions, too, but we got along all right. But the meantime, that was all well and good, that was all right; but anyway I defeated the doctor, by the way. But anyway, when I got in, these three people who came in, there was a feeling that those two young men were in there to get the Superintendent because of something had happened to one of them's father when they integrated the system--how they maneuvered around and all that. But, you see, I wasn't in there to get even with anybody, I was in there to serve everybody, and I didn't take sides. And the first thing, you see, the Superintendent wanted to do the folks made me understand, I let them know, he was going to get rid of the man without me, I don't play ( ) now. I didn't know the man. The man had gotten good report every year as being a good principal, but he wanted to move him from there. It was a promotion but he didn't want to move and the people didn't want him to move, so we figured there was something wrong. And so what they did that night, what they did they put it altogether, they put in the thing for you to vote on--and this is the first time I'd had to vote in a school board meeting. They put in there to rehire all the teachers, move this man, to do some other things I don't remember--shoot, I'm going to play silly now -- he put it up there . . . I said, "Mr. Chairman, do I have to vote on all that together?" I knew ( ) but I said--he said, “No, no, no if you don't want to.” I said, "Well pull that Lefler man out of there, ‘cause you see, if I'd vote yes I'm moving the man the school doesn't want moved and they haven't given reason. If I vote no, I'm voting against all the teachers." So they pulled it out and when I said that I saw some of them blinking eyes at one another and saying she's not fooled by it all. [Laughter] You know, you just . . . I looked at people, I just looked around and I could see that they knew what was happening and I had defeated what was happening. So they had to pull it out. So they pulled it out and then they had to make a motion. That one man said, “Well, I offer a motion to do this.” Okay, that went right on through. Well, they got back down to this one person and I'm not going to say a thing. I'm going to sit there and listen ‘cause I didn't offer the motion for it to be done. And one man who's in that man's district said, "Well, I guess the only way we going to get this over with is to make a motion." And he offered the motion that the man be moved and we had to, you know, vote and I voted no. And of course, we only had one vote, you know, so the man was moved, but it was clearly understood that the man from his own district voted for him to be moved and he lost. I didn't even know the man, didn't know him from Adam; but the point was they knew I was wasn't in any particular faction, and I was in there for everybody else. So that was about the only problem I had there, because they realized from then I was going to ask, if I didn't understand it I was going to ask it. If I didn't believe it I was going to vote against it. And they knew that so that was that. I didn't have no problems.

RAY: You said you built your house back in the sixties . . .

JOHNSON: Sixty-two.

RAY: Sixty-two?

JOHNSON: Uh-huh.

RAY: When you built in this neighborhood, was it a mixed neighbor or was it an all black neighbor?

JOHNSON: No, I guess it's always been mixed because a white woman owned the house next door when I bought this one. She had an outside toilet. Well, she didn't build a bathroom. When we built this house, my daddy made her move. My daddy made her move from here, move into another poorer neighborhood after we moved here. Yeah, a white woman lived there. Let's see, where else did whites live . . . there was nobody here, this was a vacant lot. That one was a vacant lot, both of them were vacant. But I think whites probably lived from here up but I don't know about where the Carters live now, they've always lived there since I've been here but whites have lived, it's always been mixed.

RAY: But when you came into the neighborhood, did you face any kind of racial prejudice, did they try to keep you from moving in?

JOHNSON: Oh, no, no, no, that's why we built here. I didn't want to go through that. If I had gone out into another neighborhood, I might have faced something but we were too old to be fooling with it. Of course, young people put up with it, they went on out there. Ordinarily, we wouldn't have built here but the point was we wanted to leave where we were and we had to get lots where we could find them. And some people, black people who owned lots wouldn't . . . we would bought it but they wouldn't sell it. The city came along and took it later anyway so they didn't gain anything by not selling to us but this was the only place that we could find a lot and, of course, there was no objection to it although -- I'm trying to think, what was it -- there was something in the deed that somebody didn't understand because this white woman went down to be sure that we were going to be building a dwelling house here. She said she had no objections to that but no, this one . . . I don't know, the Harveys, the blacks, have always lived down there, haven't they, I guess, on the other side of the church. I guess there's always been blacks here but there's been whites, too. But that's enough about true all over Henderson, I guess, but maybe in certain places. Whites have always been able to live where they wanted to live.

RAY: Do you think that race relations in Henderson now has changed from the time since you first came here, do you think it's any better or . . .

JOHNSON: Oh yeah, I think it's better. I think it's better.

RAY: Well, Mrs. Johnson, can I ask you if you vote? You don't have to answer any questions that I don't . . .

JOHNSON: You know I vote. [Laughing]

RAY: Yes, you wouldn't have gotten your jobs if you hadn't voted, yes, yes. [Laughing]

JOHNSON: I'm a Democrat. That doesn't mean I believe in every person on the ballot, I'll tell you that, you know.

SMITH: Now when you were an Extension Agent and you would go into people's homes, what exactly would you teach them or help them with?

JOHNSON: What they wanted help with. That was why they sent it now. When . . . the homemakers' program, the homemakers would come in, well, first they'd organize a club, they would organize a club first and tell them what it was all about. And you had food leaders, clothing leaders, home management leaders. Now if the club decided, well, we wanted to study clothing this time, well you send you clothing leaders in. And they would say what do you want to learn, and they would tell me what they wanted to learn and we would make up the program and that's what we would teach when we would go there. Okay, now we found out that there were people in there to, even though we had ( ) lessons, I was teaching them using the proper measuring cup, the proper measuring spoons, the proper utensils, and everything which they didn't have at home. And we were teaching and it wasn't meeting their needs and they really found that out when this low world got centered on low-income families. Then I found out that I was teaching somebody to start this on the middle rack and they didn't even have a rack in the stove. You see? It was pretty dreadful. We were using commodities, they were, you know, sending out, you know what they were, meal and . . . now everybody's crazy about yellow meal. Folks come to find they was putting it down for the kids to play in, playpen, all that kind of stuff. And they thought it was bad but it was good, none better meal. They thought it wasn't good stuff. But it was; but we couldn't put the name, we couldn't put the names on it, they were giving it away. But when we got into teaching and I went into your house, she wants to learn the first place, the woman wanted to learn how to make cookies, peanut butter cookies like they served at school. Her children would come home and they wouldn't eat hers. Well, I had to go in and show her how to make peanut butter cookies in her stove. When I went in there, I wasn't too sure what I was stepping on sometimes, whether I was stepping on a rotten potato or something else. Well, I looked over in the corner, and there were all these dirty clothes piled up on a washing machine; and I wondered why she didn't she wash. And then when I asked for some water, she got a bucket and went out of the house and went down where she lived to a common spigot and I said my Lord, no wonder she doesn't need a washing machine. She's got to bring water up here in a bucket. Now you can see why my teaching wasn't doing her any good. Okay. We got up there. I found out that she didn't have everything that she needed. Guess what she was doing with her flour. She was opening it and laying it over the back of stove cutting it open. The bugs were everywhere so I went and got people to save me there three-pound coffee cans and those kind of things and showed her how to make canisters to make, to put her flour in her . . .

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

BEGIN TAPE TWO SIDE ONE

RAY: This is Maxine Ray. While replacing the tape, Mrs. Johnson, who is over ninety-five years old, decided she did not want to speak anymore or to answer anymore questions so this is the end of interview.

END OF INTERVIEW