Oral History Interview with Porter Peeples Sr.

Due to mechanical failure, portions of this tape were inaudible.

BETSY BRINSON: ...October fifth the year two thousand. This is an interview with Porter G. Peeples, Senior. The interview takes place in his office at the Urban League in Lexington, Kentucky, and the interviewer is Betsy Brinson. Mr. Peeples, could you give me your full name please, so I can get a voice level here?

PORTER G. PEEPLES: Sure, Porter G. Peeples, Senior.

BRINSON: Why don’t you give me that again and see if it records better?

PEEPLES: Porter G. Peeples, Senior.

BRINSON: Well, thank you Mr. Peeples for meeting me at this early hour of the morning.

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PEEPLES: I was born in a small coal mining town in Eastern Kentucky, called Lynch.

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PEEPLES: ...in the class, probably, I would say probably about seventy in the class, and probably about thirty and it may have been more; but probably about twenty-five to thirty African-Americans.

BRINSON: How was that last year for you?

PEEPLES: The year of integration? Ahh. Very interesting. We had to make--you make some major adjustments, because you know, your senior year in high school is what you live for, in terms of, you’ve risen to be the leaders of your school. And then you’ve got to go somewhere where you’ve got to share this with people who--you’re not too willing and want to share--and they certainly not willing and want to share; because they were looking forward to being the leaders of their school, also. So, probably the African-American who would have been the president of our class had to share that, and the valedictorian, so all of those kinds of things. It was obviously brand new for everyone, the teachers, I’m sure were not prepared to deal with African-American kids, most of the, not many African-American teachers, as I recall, came along.

BRINSON: What happened to them?

PEEPLES: Many of them, as I recall, ended up being relegated to positions in the junior high or teaching elementary school, some retired. What I remember the most was my football and basketball coach ( ) didn’t come along. The entire football, athletic staff was hired from that school.

BRINSON: Did they get teaching positions, or were any of them demoted into other than teaching?

PEEPLES: I think they remained as teachers.

BRINSON: This was pretty late after the Supreme Court Brown Decision in fifty-four, what took them so long?

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PEEPLES: ...and that I had a chance to know them growing up. But they were part of the out migration in the fifties from Eastern Kentucky following the automobile industry jobs going to Detroit. So her sisters and brothers, many of them moved on up that way. Over the years of maintaining a real close relationship with all of the families. In fact, in my hometown right now, there is one remaining relative, that’s my father’s brother, and that’s my best friend and my fishing buddy. We fish together all year.

BRINSON: Did you grow up in a church?

PEEPLES: Yes. In fact it is interesting that you would ask that, because I just had an interview yesterday with a clergyman who is doing some research on African-American churches in Eastern Kentucky. And in my town for the African-American community there were two Baptist churches and one Methodist. And I was raised in the First Baptist Church, very, very active as most families were in the church. I can remember serving as junior deacon in the church, and being in the choir, even though I could not sing. [Laughing] But I was there. Being very close and being raised in the church, going to Sunday school.

BRINSON: And it was called The First Baptist Church?

PEEPLES: First Baptist Church, yeah, which burned down about four or five years ago.

BRINSON: Hmm. Do you know what caused the...?

PEEPLES: No, it was just natural causes, no malice, not a hate crime thing.

BRINSON: At what point in your growing up, do you think that you recognized that you were living in a segregated society?

PEEPLES: I knew all along because of the housing patterns in my town.

BRINSON: Tell me about that.

PEEPLES: The blacks lived on a few streets and most of the white people lived on what was called Main Street. But it wasn’t as, it was visibly noticeable, but the town was small and even though we didn’t attend the same schools, all the kids played together. You know, what might have separated us, may have been an alley. [Laughing] So we grew up playing basketball in the back alley together, or playing football together all the time. And another thing you have to remember in a coal mining town, you know--all of the those men went into the same, you know--everybody, ninety-nine percent of the men in the town had the same jobs. And the women, you know, just basically--I don’t mean just basically--but there was very little out of home work. The women were housewives. And all of these men knew each other. And I also know one of the things that I was very close with my father was fishing. And most of the, many of the men in that town, that’s what they did on weekends, fished and hunted. And you know, black and white men field fished together and so forth. There was still a lot of close knittedness in this small town. They depended on one another when they went into that dark hole to make a living.

BRINSON: Let me ask you, you mentioned different housing, different neighborhoods and whatnot. Were there any differences in terms of like paved roads or street lighting?

PEEPLES: No, no, absolutely, it was all the same--the company owned all of the houses. They built the houses. Now in a later date they sold them to them, but they were all the same.

BRINSON: Okay, so you graduated from high school and then what?

PEEPLES: Let me go back and mention also please, in Kentucky you had county schools, obviously supported by the state of Kentucky and the counties. In my town we had independent schools that were all subsidized by United States Steel, which owned the town. And that, I would say, that provided extra funds which made our school system a little better than the county school system. The quality, some of us think that the quality of the teaching, certainly the quality of the equipment and so forth was better.

BRINSON: So there was extra money that could be used for textbooks and science equipment?

PEEPLES: Sure.

BRINSON: How about teacher’s salaries?

PEEPLES: That’s what I was talking about, the quality, I think that contributed to that.

BRINSON: Okay, so when you graduated from high school, what happened to you then?

PEEPLES: Okay, I graduated from high school in sixty-four, four years after they had opened, the University of Kentucky had opened the community college in Cumberland, Kentucky, which was five miles from our home, which provided an opportunity for me to go on to college. There were nine kids in my family, four brothers and sisters before me, probably any of them would have had the same academic capabilities to go on to college, but the community college was not there. So after graduation they had moved on away to various places in Ohio and New York and so forth. I entered the college there, but one of the things that also assisted me in my capabilities to enter college, is that we had a practice among African-American families in Eastern Kentucky, and it was predicated on our parents’ visions of making sure that we had, that we knew that there was a world outside the confines of those mountains. So black teenagers always were sent away in the summer to live with relatives in the northern cities. And what they did was gave us an outside exposure, gave us an opportunity to work, make money, buy school clothes. And that provided an assistance--or it reduced some of the financial burdens on our parents. From the time I was fifteen until I graduated from college, I worked, with the exception of one summer, I would go to Brooklyn and I would work in New York City.

BRINSON: You had relatives there

PEEPLES: Yeah, I would go with my brother and sister. And then one summer I went to Cincinnati and lived with my sister and worked there. But if you can imagine, I’m fifteen years of age, and my population in my town is probably about two thousand. I leave there on Saturday, then on Tuesday morning I’m working as a messenger boy in Mid-town Manhattan, Nineteenth Street, Park Avenue South, up to Rockefeller Center. Quite a growing up experience, but by no means was I intimidated; because I was too young to know that I was supposed to be intimidated by that kind of thing. That was most helpful to me, and I’m sure to all of my other African-American peers; because as I said, it let us know there was world outside. And what I most note that for, is when I transferred as a junior to the University of Kentucky, the University of Kentucky was not really large to me. There were only about fifty African-Americans on campus, with maybe what, fifteen thousand students, but that did not bother me after having had a New York experience. So I’m glad, I’m very, very glad, and we were blessed as African-American kids and teenagers to have parents who did that for us.

BRINSON: I understand from other people that I’ve interviewed, that there’s an Eastern Kentucky...

PEEPLES: Social club?

BRINSON: Yes.

PEEPLES: Yeah.

BRINSON: Can you tell me about that? Are you a member?

PEEPLES: Yes, I’m a....there’s a club still based in that.

BRINSON: And these are all people who, or families who have students in the area...

PEEPLES: The history--the history of that is there was a....well we talked about the out migration pattern of people from the coal fields of Eastern Kentucky to Cleveland and Detroit, Chicago. Many of them following and looking for, again looking for outside job opportunities; because my parents were kind of adamant that they didn’t want us to go into the coal mines. So that was the feeling of a lot of them, so they would go North for those jobs. That started in the thirties, forties, fifties. And about thirty years ago there was a death and a funeral in Cleveland; some of the people who went to the funeral were sitting, you know some discussion about we only get together when someone dies, so we don’t really get to have much fun and frolic together. And someone said why don’t we have a reunion. They had a reunion. Thus the birth of what is now, I think about thirteen or fourteen clubs scattered across the country: New York, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Connecticut, Lynch, Dayton. Every year a different club sponsors that. Now during the course of the year, these clubs put on various fund raisers to fund their clubs to have the monies to put on these functions. When you have this event, it is one big, wholesome coming together people who have the commonality of having been raised in the coal fields of Eastern Kentucky. And it’s three days of just being together and embellishing one another.

BRINSON: I believe it was in Chicago this year?

PEEPLES: No, Dayton.

BRINSON: Dayton? Ohh.

PEEPLES: Yeah, I just came back from Dayton. Chicago the year before, Milwaukee next year; and then two thousand two, the Lynch Club will be sponsoring it, and it will be hosted in Louisville. Obviously Lynch is not large enough and doesn’t have the facilities. And I work with that club every time they sponsor it. They sponsored it here in Lexington once, and we hosted it in Atlanta once. And after we left Atlanta, we had helped the Atlanta chapter get started and [clears throat] excuse me, a few years later they hosted it.

BRINSON: You said fun and frolic, but in the three days, are there formal programs?

PEEPLES: Oh sure, you have, and those are fun kind of events. There are events that you design especially for the kids who come. You have dances, Friday night is usually some kind of a disco dance. On Saturdays you have picnics and outings for families and friends; and another thing that works into that is, say hypothetically if it was here, say when it was here in Lexington; my family and friends who came, we had a reunion within at my house. We just came to my house. I fish a lot, so I had lots of my friends and family over for a big fish fry in the backyard, kind of thing.

BRINSON: Is there any sort of social service component, for example, an effort to raise money for scholarships or anything like that?

PEEPLES: No, no, no, that’s been discussed, but I think we have pretty much have left that to everybody doing it in their respective cities. You’ve only got three days, you know, I think people just enjoy being together. But you have--you have--we have church service together on Sunday. In Dayton they had a Gospel Fest on that Friday. One of the things that we are going to have when we have it in Louisville, we are going to take everybody on the boat ride. So it’s, it’s wholesome, family fun.

BRINSON: Okay. I’m intrigued by the fact that families during the high school years would send their children off. I wonder, is that just something that each family knew to do individually? Was there was any sort of organization that kind of pushed that?

PEEPLES: No, no organization, that was just, a kind of, just became a pattern that families did. And it was because see if my brother left, he knew that it would be beneficial for me to have--my parents knew it would be beneficial. And every family felt the same way, it would be beneficial for us, in terms of our own growth and development to see the rest of the world.

BRINSON: Did your parents, for example, ever go to New York City to see where you had been?

PEEPLES: No, they didn’t, but that didn’t mean that many other families--a lot of the families--what they had in the coal mines, every summer; in July, they would shut down for two weeks, for vacation. And families would do things, like my family, my father and his brother, they would go back to the home place in Alabama. And families would go to Cleveland to visit relatives, or drive to Detroit. But that was kind of...

BRINSON: So you...

PEEPLES: But that’s the good thing now about these reunions, every Labor Day we are in one of those cities.

BRINSON: Uh huh, right. So you went to Cumberland Community College.

PEEPLES: Southeast Community College, yes.

BRINSON: Southeast Community College, and what did you study there?

PEEPLES: I received an Associate Degree in Education, focus primarily on elementary education. Came on to the University of Kentucky, expanded that to Special Ed. Graduated in sixty-eight with a dual teaching certificate in Elementary and Special Ed. Taught in the Fayette County, I graduated like December, and I taught in the Fayette County Public schools one semester. The last semester I was in college, I lived at the YMCA here, Second Street YMCA here. During that same time, that summer, Mr. Walter Brown had come to open the Urban League here; and their first temporary office was in the YMCA. We befriended one another, and had kind of a common bond, because he moved down from New Jersey and I did have some familiarity with the East, with New York and all. And he moved the Urban League from the “Y” to the Westside Plaza that summer after I graduated from college. Now during that summer, I was working for the Community Action Agency here, in a program designed for juvenile delinquency prevention with young people. After I taught school, let me see, wait a minute, let me get that in sequence. I graduated in December, taught school that spring semester, and during that spring semester, Mr. Brown had offered me an opportunity to come to work for him. So that following summer I worked for Community Action and then came to work for the Urban League that fall. So I used my teaching degree for one semester, however, and it’s really coincidental, that still today, having been trained in Special Ed to work with the slow learners, you learned patience. And that’s a virtue. That’s a strength that I still use. To me, that’s an asset that I still use today in this work. Because if you are involved with changing systems, you must be patient, otherwise you will be maximally frustrated all the time.

BRINSON: Let me go back to the University of Kentucky, were you a member active with the Black Student Union at U.K.?

PEEPLES: No. I was very active in the Student Council for Special Education, and in fact, I was the first African-American to be a President of that Council during that time. I was working while I was in school. [Laughing] My parents didn’t have a lot of resources, so had to work.

BRINSON: What kind of work?

PEEPLES: I worked at the Bluegrass School, which was a school for the mentally retarded. I also worked at the YMCA.

BRINSON: And the YMCA then was down on Second Street...

PEEPLES: Second Street.

BRINSON: ...where the Jefferson Club is now.

PEEPLES: Yeah, where the Jefferson Center is. Now we had, resource-wise down there, we had almost nothing. We didn’t have that swimming pool and everything they have there now. We had the backyard...

BRINSON: That hadn’t been built?

PEEPLES: No, that hadn’t been built. We had the backyard and a dilapidated annex. What we had to do is, to go swimming we had to put the kids on the bus. We had a bus that would go around through the black neighborhood and pick up kids on Wednesday, on I think Wednesday night and Saturday night and we took them to swim up on High Street. And so that was my connection, my connection with the “Y”.

BRINSON: I’m interested to know though, since there were so few of you at U. K. at that point in time; and I know a little bit about the history of the Black Student Union, so I know it was kind of a rocky road for a while. Did you just intentionally elect not to participate? Or...

PEEPLES: No, I participated, but I wasn’t in--I guess I raised the other one, because I had a leadership, I was in a leadership role there. But yeah, sure, I participated. And while I probably may not have been as active in the Black Student Union. One of things I was, we had, we had a very, those of us who were there, were very close-knit, one small family. In my Senior year I was able to put together enough funds with my father’s assistance to buy a little raggedy car. We didn’t move that car off campus, unless all of us were stuffed in there. Socially we used, I mean there was not a whole lot for us on the University of Kentucky, so we would jump in there and go to Eastern, where there were more African-American kids. Or we would go to Kentucky State, but a very, very close, close bond among us.

BRINSON: I’m interested in Walter Brown, that you mentioned, who came here as head of the Urban League, and hired you. What, you said he came from New Jersey.

PEEPLES: Yes.

BRINSON: What...tell me something more about him.

PEEPLES: Walter was a Methodist minister, who had worked for the Urban League. And I forgot, I mentioned, I think he may have come directly here from Dayton; but New Jersey was his home. And he had worked for the Urban League in Dayton as sort of like a number two person and came here as the first Executive Director of this Urban League. And then he left here and I think went back to New Jersey or to Virginia, but he gave me my first opportunity. I’m here today because of something he saw in me and gave me an opportunity to do this.

BRINSON: What happened to him? How long did he stay here?

PEEPLES: In Lexington? Walter left, Walter only stayed a couple of years and then he left. And then I was put into an acting Director’s role for about a year and a half. Back during that time, I guess I was, I had youthful, itchy feet that said, they should have gone on and made the decision and made me the CEO. But as I look back, they did the right thing. [Laughing] I was--I was not ready to take on that responsibility then; but being in the acting role, helped me to grow. And as they brought in other people to interview for the position, I got a chance to talk and learn some things from them. Developed a relationship with my mentor down the road, who is then Walter’s Director of the Louisville Urban League. And then when they did, and did pass the torch on to me; it still took some time for me to learn my way and become the responsible Director that they needed and I hope that I have become.

BRINSON: Tell me a little bit please, about the mission of the Urban League, and also about some of the early programs here in Lexington.

PEEPLES: The mission of the Urban League, by definition, is to work for equal life opportunities for minority and equally, similarly disadvantaged populations. Minorities carries different connotations in different segments of the country. We’re a hundred and thirteen, I think one hundred and thirteen affiliates strong across this country. Here, the minority population is primarily African-Americans and economically disadvantaged white population. Some of the projects, one of the reasons I came to work for Walter Brown, is I had a degree in Education. And one of the first projects that he started was an education program that focused on typing, providing typing and clerical skills for females. So I came to set that program up. That was my first job with the Urban League. And interestingly as we sit here now, thirty years later, we are still doing that same kind of training, but it’s computer training.

BRINSON: Did you run that out of the YMCA building?

PEEPLES: No. All we had for space at the Y....Well when I came to work with the Urban League, they had moved and opened at the, in the Plaza, Westside Plaza on Georgetown Street. Now, our first training classes were set up in the space provided at the Salvation Army. Then we expanded our space and started doing that training in our center up there on Georgetown Street.

BRINSON: I’m going to turn the tape over here.

PEEPLES: Sure.

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

PEEPLES: ...from being involved in advocacy roles with the kids in high school. That was still early integration time in Fayette County Public Schools, so you had to be there to advocate and intervene with high school kids, because everybody, black and white, were kind of feeling their way through the educational process.

BRINSON: So was that one to one with students?

PEEPLES: All of the above, some one-to-one, some groups, you know having groups with kids.

BRINSON: Okay.

PEEPLES: We were doing some things with small minority businesses. I remember we had the Small Business Administration would send their financial counselor to the Urban League once a week--to sit there--and who’d spend time with people who were looking for loans and the like. What were some of the other kinds of things that we did? Youth activities in the summer and those kinds of things.

BRINSON: How was the Urban League perceived by the white community in the early days in Lexington?

PEEPLES: I think more importantly is how it was perceived by the black community during those days.

BRINSON: That would have been my next question.

PEEPLES: Yeah. Urban League during the--remember we’re talking about the turbulent sixties, where you had Doctor King and Whitney Young; and some were seen as too conservative and not radical enough. [Laughing] So, when the Urban League opened there were some people, who probably thought, quite frankly, that it was an Uncle Tom kind of group, that it was an arm of the white community. So that was one of those kinds of things that we had to work through. That was kind of nationwide. By the white community? It was seen as a moderate group that would be welcome, at the time that we were having riots.

BRINSON: Right. And the African-American community here?

PEEPLES: That’s what I was saying. There were segments of the African-American community, who probably saw us as too moderate. And then there were some, who, who, welcomed it, so there were mixed reviews. Bottom line is, if you’re an organization like this, boils down to, what have you done for me lately? If, if people are service recipients of what you do, they see you one way, if you’ve done nothing for them, they probably have a, you know, don’t have much perception of you. And then some people just don’t care.

BRINSON: Were there many of the African-American community here, just given the rise of Black Nationalism and Black Power, that really advocated or worked to make you be a different kind of organization?

PEEPLES: Not really, because I think one of the things that created more relevance for us, is that I think some Urban Leagues across this country had--had sites, where they were not as embedded in the community. And we were in the Westside Plaza, and that was right in the heart of the African-American community. That helped with credibility with that population. We were right across the street from the major housing, public housing unit, Charlotte Court. We had job training going on in that center. We had people in and out of that center. So that helped dispel some of that notion that the Urban League will not be relevant. I was still young enough that I developed relationships with people. And we also, I was also, when I became CEO, I think I was, I like to think that I was wise enough, that we started to have, hired people from the community, who people could identify with. One of the first programs we had was a youth violence, we called it a youth services bureau, which worked with, as an intervention agency with kids going to court. And we hired people from the community. We called them street workers during that time, who knew the kids, knew their families. We had about four or five of them. And those people were your ambassadors, your emissaries, your go-betweens between you and the grass-roots community. As the CEO, I had to still maintain my role of developer and fund raiser and so forth--and with that kind of relation going on, I think that helped dispel and move what could have been, you know, change some perceptions.

BRINSON: That leads me to where I was actually going next--was to ask you about where did the early funds come from to establish the Urban League? What was your budget like in those early days? [Laughing]

PEEPLES: Okay. The very first allocation, that opened this office, was twenty-five thousand dollars. In order to join the United Way, become a member of the United Way, twenty-five thousand dollars in public funds had to be raised. So there was a group who did that. And then we started to get supplemented to that tune from United Way. We now - [Laughing] - we now are funded, I think, to the tune of about a hundred and forty thousand dollars from the United Way. But we are in excess, you know, total allocation, total budget for this organization is in excess of a million dollars.

BRINSON And where does the remaining money come from?

PEEPLES: Program grants-Federal...

BRINSON: Federal...

PEEPLES: State, local...

BRINSON: Local...

PEEPLES: We have, just to give you an example of a few. We have a Senior Citizens employment program, that’s to the tune of about three hundred thousand dollars. We do housing and we do some financing for housing. We have a grant, a HUD grant of about two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. We have some, under the Welfare to Work Act now, we have some work, we do some things with, called Fatherhood Initiative, working with the non-custodial fathers; we have a couple of grants with that, that’s maybe about hundred, a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. We have a program now working with the young people in housing construction training, about sixty thousand dollars. That’s called Youth Build. We are going to re-establish our construction training for ex-inmates that we’ve done for the last ten or twelve years, a combination of Criminal Justice funds and Governor’s funds will be about six hundred thousand dollars. So it is kind of a plethora of different, different funding. So that’s my role, is to do development.

BRINSON: So the Urban League has been here now, how many years?

PEEPLES: Umm, sixty-eight.

BRINSON: So, roughly thirty-two years.

PEEPLES: Uh hmm.

BRINSON: Has it changed over time? And if so, how?

PEEPLES: The change has been just growth. The mission has remained the same. We’ve adjusted to different initiatives. Organizations who target working for lower income and economically disadvantaged populations also have to be some what in sync with what the federal government is targeting to do with that population. We’ve gone through, let’s say, major job training initiatives that we’ve gone through. There was something they first called, well, first there was the War on Poverty, that was going on when we first opened, but the Community Action Agency was the main, main participant in that. Then the government came up with, what they called CETA, Comprehensive Employment and Training Act. We did training under that. Then during the George Bush - Dan Quayle era, there became what they called JTPA, Jobs Training Partnership Act. We did job training under that and now it is under Welfare Reform. The focus has always been to do what we could for that population and look for niches that gave us, that kind of carved out opportunities for us to do what we do, but to do it for the population. Let me tell you what we did, you know, just from a philosophical, programmatic standpoint. About fifteen years ago during the era of--I mean when there was not a whole lot of federal sensitivity to non-profit organizations, especially minority non-profit organizations from the then Republican regimes. We realized that in order to survive, that we had to have a thrust that was not only dependent on our trying to sell the mission that these are poor people who need attention, because those administrations were not as sensitive to....We knew that we needed to have a business approach, look more like a business. So that’s why we put in place a non-profit, second non-profit component of the Urban League that we call the Fayette County Local Development Corporation. And it had by it’s mission, economic development, economic development and community improvement. And one of the first things we started to do is talk about rebuilding our own neighborhoods through housing. Now in order to make sure that we didn’t abandon our mission of working with the population, we said we were going to build houses for first time home owners who were low to moderate incomes, but we were also going to train ex-inmates, who were returning to the communities. And over the years we have trained over two hundred men. We closed in December on our one hundredth home. And as we sit here today, I will be reporting at our Urban League Banquet October thirtieth, that we’ve done--that we’re--that this year, we’ve done, we’ve either financed or constructed thirty-eight additional homes. So we’ve had a major impact, you know, we’re talking about in excess of seven million dollars worth of real estate. As we sit in this building today, we’re looking at a site that was totally dilapidated. We acquired it in January of ninety-eight. Through our training program, we refurbished this entire facility and it is now our headquarters. And in the process of doing this, we said we wanted to re-do this entire block. We went to the city and asked them to re-do the infrastructure. Two years ago this was a two-way, very cluttered street. And now it is one-way, widened. The business right next door is here as a result, now. We also...

BRINSON: Let me ask you about this block. The addr...this is Deweese Street, and for the transcriber that’s D E W E E S E.

PEEPLES: D E W E E S E, and Deweese Street during, during, back during what was called the hey days of Lexington, was the hub of, of the black community. Many businesses thrived on this street, but as the same thing that happened in many cities, urban renewal came through and what was left after that disaster, was two blocks. [Laughing] We’ve got one block that was consumed by National City Bank and this block. And that’s why, the Urban League, we were challenged to preserve this building; because this building has a significant history. It was once the medical facility for the black community. Doctor Dalton, Doctor Pope, lived upstairs, but they provided medical service out of this area. So I wanted to preserve that history and preserve the history of Deweese Street. There’s also, there’s a building across the street, which was once the state headquarters for Mammoth Life Insurance, and we’ve acquired that. And we’re going to use that for overflow for office space. There’s a duplex across the street that was part of this Mecca once called Deweese Street. We’ve acquired that one, and we’re going start renovation of it and put a community technology center in there, starting next spring. What we hoped, is by preserving this, that would kind of be, we would just be part of the whole process of revitalizing this east end. The housing authority has built eighteen new houses over immediately to the left of us. On up the street, Northside Clinic has gone in, in the last couple of years. Across the street from that is, on the corner, is the old historic Liberty Theater, that after litigation, I think, is going to be either restored or a new facility will be built there. During the last year, we have taken option on the entire block that sits immediately behind the Liberty Theater and we’re in the process of putting together a financial package to build about thirty-two senior citizens apartment complex there, for independent and assisted living. We’re also involved in a project three, two blocks on up from there, called the re-birth of Elm Tree Lane. With the Housing Authority and the Urban League, we’re putting together nineteen new houses in there, that will range from eighty to a hundred, hundred and ten thousand dollars.

BRINSON: And for the transcriber, that’s Elm, E L M, Tree, two words, Tree Lane.

PEEPLES: Yeah.

BRINSON: Well, two questions. One, you mentioned early, that early on the Urban League had United Way support and continues today, I assume?

PEEPLES: Sure.

BRINSON: Since I just saw it in the list of organizations that I can make my contributions to, last night. But I wonder, how typical is it for Urban Leagues across the country to be United Way agents?

PEEPLES: Oh, that’s the core funding for all Urban Leagues.

BRINSON: Okay.

PEEPLES: Every Urban League in the country is a United Way organization and then their funding cycles, their funding support is similar to what I just described, they then get grants and so forth from other organizations to do other programming.

BRINSON: And then my second question is, you sit on many membership boards and commissions. And I wonder do you do that as part of your CEO function of the Urban League? Do you do it because you are a good citizen?

PEEPLES: No, I do it as part of the CEO function of the Urban League. One, Urban League has an inherent role in it’s responsibility of advocating and intervening and advising. So you have to be at the table where decisions `are being made. So that’s the reason why we are involved in a lot of those kinds of activities. I’m on the Kentucky Housing Corporation Board, obviously bringing to them another perspective. I work on advisory groups which serve banks. I am the Chairman of Fayette county’s school Equity Council, obviously pushing for equity for minority students in the Fayette county school system. I once, I have over the years served as state chairman for the U.S. Civil Rights Commission. We are very actively involved in those kinds of matters. I’m involved with groups that are in charge, with the responsibility of running all of the job training programs. And we also have some selfish interests there. We want to be there to make sure that as those pies are cut and distributed for agencies to have dollars to run, we want to advocate for our constituents and our organization.

BRINSON: Well in all of those roles, what are some of the most controversial situations that you’ve had to help negotiate in the city?

PEEPLES: Some probably around police - community relations and schools.

BRINSON: Can you describe any in particular?

PEEPLES: We’ll talk police-community relations, one we just went through this year, the issue of driving while black. This time last year, a group of us joined hands with the faith community toward educating this community and raising it’s consciousness about the disproportionate times that African-American drivers were being stopped versus their white counterparts. At first, the police chief, as most departments across this country were in denial about it. We issued a challenge to the mayor and to the chief to do a demonstration where they documented all of the stops for six months, and then let’s see what happens. That we, it was our position that we would move from the anecdotal to the real, once we saw, and it proved to be, and we proved to be prophetic in that and true. So now the chief and the mayor have adopted the policy that, that would be an ongoing practice; and that police officers would be given certain sensitivity training and so forth to those kinds of practices.

BRINSON: Is this whole issue of racial profiling, is it a new issue or is it a historical one in Lexington?

PEEPLES: I don’t know what that racial profiling is. The practice is old, you know, black folks know it is old. But getting people of influence to recognize it and start to try to do something is still a new and ongoing struggle. Most recently even the Governor has stepped up and said that they are going to have the state police start looking at it. And they are in denial right now. But I think that they will, once they start doing some documentation, they will see that it is a real, it’s a real practice.

BRINSON: Who’s in denial?

PEEPLES: I think that, the state police probably.

BRINSON: The state police? Okay.

PEEPLES: Yeah. Right now, just as our local police were. Because when they had, the reason I say that, when they had their press conference, I was just listening to some of their language, “we’ll do it to see, but we don’t believe that our police, you know, do that.” But that’s the same thing everybody says.

BRINSON: And then you mentioned the other very controversial area was education.

PEEPLES: Well—education--this school, I think back some years ago when this district was ordered to integrate under court order. They made--the City Board--made what I consider to be a very sinister decision, to avoid having cross bussing. Cross bussing meaning bringing white kids downtown and black kids out. They made a sinister decision to close down several of the downtown elementary schools. Which robbed the downtown elementary schools--downtown neighborhoods of elementary schools--which if we fast forward to today, there is a lot of discussion about the merits of having neighborhood schools. That’s fine for the suburbs who have neighborhood schools, but that’s not fine for the neighborhoods downtown, who no longer have, you know, those neighborhood schools. But during that time, there was a lot of controversy around here, about that decision. I can remember being part of, of marches on the board and on the School Board members about that decision. I can remember when we started to hire the first School Superintendent, not too long ago, and under KERA there were rules about who was supposed to be a part of this School Board selection process. It was very controversial, because there were no African-American people on that panel. And we had to, we insisted that there was going to be some way, somehow, some avenue for our participation. It ended up even having to have the Governor come down [Laughing] and do some intervention--intervention with that. We’re still fighting, this district through my Equity Council role, about closing the achievement gap between black kids, black kids and white kids. There is still an abundance of issues in education tied to equity.

BRINSON: I’m curious that you have stayed as long as you have. And as I listen to you talk about the program, I understand that better, in terms of what you’ve been trying to build. But I wonder if you haven’t ever thought of leaving Lexington?

PEEPLES: There have been times that I’ve thought about it. But you make decisions based on what feels right for you. One, when I was younger and my parents were living, I really enjoyed being closer to them; you know, three hours away, just for reasons of being there for them. And personal reasons of enjoying the time that my father and I still spent fishing and hunting together. Professionally, as I’ve gotten into this job, it became more and more clear to me, that agencies like this grow based more on relationships; and that I had developed some relationships that we could build upon; and that it made more sense to stay here and do that, then move on for the sake of saying something else is on the resume.

BRINSON: Okay.

PEEPLES: So, I’ve been very, very comfortable with that.

BRINSON: Do you have family now?

PEEPLES: Yes, I’m into my second marriage. I have a wife now and a step-daughter, who is a junior at the University of Kentucky; and my son from my first marriage, and he has two kids.

BRINSON: And do they live...?

PEEPLES: They all live here.

BRINSON: All live here.

PEEPLES: All live here, yeah.

BRINSON: That’s nice. Well, let me see here. There was one other thing that was told to me recently, and I wondered if you could just enlighten me a little bit more; and that is the Antonio Sullivan situation in nineteen ninety-five. What was that? What was that all about?

PEEPLES: Very, very unfortunate situation, where a teenager was shot by a police officer; and that created very turbulent times and a rift between this community. It was very, it was very tough for this community to deal with and go through that.

BRINSON: And how did the community, particularly, how did the black community respond to that?

PEEPLES: At first there was--I mean, there was--I mean, well as close as you could get in this town to rioting [Laughing] that was the idea. There were kids marching downtown. There was some rock throwing and bottle throwing between the police. And there were some cars overturned, and there were some very tense days that followed that. There, I think, coming out of that is something that is now in existence, called Partners for Youth; which is an attempt to fund grassroots kind of organizations to do multiple things with youths. So that’s one of the positives that I know came out of that. But it was a very, very unfortunate and tough time in this community.

BRINSON: Did you have a role in that in any way? Or did the Urban League have a role?

PEEPLES: There is not much that goes on in this town that involves African-American people that we’re not in, in some fashion. Yes, we were right in there. We were one of the first groups that were involved in meeting with the chief and the mayor and we played whatever roles we could as intermediaries. But most of the leadership in that probably was some faith leaders and some of the government officials, because it was obviously, you know, police work for the government.

BRINSON: Were there any important changes that came out of that incident?

PEEPLES: Well, I’d speak to the Partners for Youth, that’s one of the things, and that’s something that I’ve been involved in.

BRINSON: But you said it is non-existent now?

PEEPLES: What?

BRINSON: The Partners for Youth.

PEEPLES: Oh no, no, no, the Partners for Youth is ongoing every year. The Partners for Youth is a project funded out of the mayor’s office. The mayor raises money and a lot of those smaller groups, who are now funded to do different kind of things. And that’s all about prevention and involvement of young people.

BRINSON: And how does that work? How does the program work? Partners for Youth, are they partners?

PEEPLES: The partners are the corporate contributors and so forth, and they raise the money with the mayor; and then the monies are distributed to various, like the Aspendale Teen Center, which is two blocks away from where Antonio Sullivan was killed. The YMCA and various other groups who work with youth, receive funds from this to do preventive activities.

BRINSON: Do you have any ongoing interactions with the teen center?

PEEPLES: Only, not from a programmatic standpoint. The Urban League, we’re not really involved in a lot of youth activities. My major youth involvement is advocacy. And let me explain that, nineteen ninety-one....Well, we go through a very controversial period here in this community periodically, and it’s under the heading of redistricting. I refer to that as our periodic civil wars; because whenever you talk about redistricting, you talk about not south side schools, north side schools, where kids are going, our assignments for kids to schools. And that usually, it always comes up that people don’t want their kids going to school on the north side because they are perceived as not being as well equipped. And some of that perception is real, a lot of it is real. [Laughing] But coming behind one of those redistricting processes, one of the School Board members said we need to look at our district just in terms of total equity. So if there are inequitable situations, we need to remedy those, so the next time we go to one of these redistricting, that won’t be as much of an issue. So that was, they put together an equity taskforce. I was a member of that taskforce. And the Equity Taskforce came up with a equity report in nineteen ninety-three. And coming out of that report was a recommendation that we have an equity monitor for this district and have an equity, a permanent equity council for this district. So I rolled over from the Equity Taskforce to be a part of the Equity Council, and I’ve Chaired the Equity Council since ninety-three. And we’ve played, I think a very vital role in, in getting this district to the point of recog...admitting and recognizing the inequities and addressing some of those. And that’s the advocacy role that I say that we’ve played. Programmatically we’ve concentrated on housing, senior citizens, adults on our community radio station. [Doorbell rings]

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

BEGIN SIDE TAPE TWO SIDE ONE

PEEPLES: ...in how that always creates the divisiveness and, in fact, we are getting ready, you probably have noticed in the media here recently, we’re getting ready to start that process again. Superintendent just appointed a group that they call Overcrowding Committee; but it’s the same thing. They are going to have to deal with re-districting, because if you’ve got overcrowding, then you have to shuffle kids. That’s what they’re starting to look at those kind of options. But that’s really a very highly controversial and very emotionally charged time that we go through to and we’re usually right at the heart of that.

BRINSON: I wonder if the recent federal court decision about the Louisville school system...

PEEPLES: Let me tell you, it’s going to come into play this time.

BRINSON: That’s what I’m wondering...

PEEPLES: It is definitely...

BRINSON: ...if it had any effect on their thinking.

PEEPLES: ...yeah, it has, it has, while nobody’s saying, it certainly has. I would not be surprised to see some people probably think about challenging--challenging it this time. But the real core of the problem, for this community, with that has to do with the housing patterns. We have segregated housing patterns, that’s a given. And as long as you have those, it’s going to be difficult to have truly integrated schools.

BRINSON: Okay, I wanted to also ask you about your serving as Chair of the U.S. Civil Rights State Advisory Commission. When was that?

PEEPLES: Gosh, I forgot, I forget the years, but what we would do with that was, our role was to have public hearings on certain issues.

BRINSON: Would it have been the seventies, eighties, nineties?

PEEPLES: Probably eighties.

BRINSON: Eighties, okay. And what kinds of issues did you...?

PEEPLES: I know some, I know we had some on, some had to do with police relations, some had to do with public housing, and those kinds of things.

BRINSON: Do you remember any of the other people that sat on the Commission?

PEEPLES: It was a statewide commission.

BRINSON: Right.

PEEPLES: So we had representatives from Louisville, Bowling Green, from all around the state. There were only three of us, two of us from here, myself and I think a guy named Paul Oberst, who was with the U.K. Law School.

BRINSON: And do you remember the names from other towns?

PEEPLES: I know there was Bowling Green and I know Louisville.

BRINSON: But you don’t?

PEEPLES: And...no, no. I could probably go in the files.

BRINSON: Well my next question is, are there any records for the Commission activity anywhere that you know about?

PEEPLES: Not that I would have, but the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, sure.

BRINSON: Okay, okay. Have you ever done any international travel yourself?

PEEPLES: Uh, no.

BRINSON: Okay. And my last question, or next to last question, is there anything you would do different with the Urban League? Or you would like to see the Urban League maybe to have done some things differently during your tenure here, which has been a long time.

PEEPLES: Yes, it has been a long time. I guess ideally, if I had, had an opportunity to have a longer tenure as an assistant, it probably would not have, it probably would have helped me move better and faster when I did become CEO. That may have been helpful, then too, maybe not. I don’t know any CEO...

BRINSON: Let me stop and ask you about that. Do you mean because you moved at a rather young age, you had to learn everything? Programs, funding...

PEEPLES: Yeah, sure. When I came on I was one of the youngest in the country. Yeah, I think I was twenty-two. Probably if I had, had three or four years of watching someone and being close to someone, but, uh....I think, I think I did okay. But that probably would have been, in retrospect, probably would have been more beneficial. I don’t think there is a CEO of a non-profit organization in this country who wouldn’t say also that they would like to have had more money to work with. [Laughing]

BRINSON: I think that’s true.

PEEPLES: But I’m, I’m exceptionally proud of the way that we’ve managed what we’ve had; exceptionally proud of the fact that we’ve, that we’ve stayed clear of scandal. Because, and we’ve had to dodge some attempts. You know, historically, organizations like ours, when you do get at odds with some people of influence, the way they try to come at you, is they try to discredit you. And one of the things I talk to my staff all the time about, is we’ve got to be impeccable in terms of our management of funds. We’ve got to be able to withstand every kind of audit that comes. And our personal lives have to be above reproach, because, just last June, I had some public attacks. A couple members of the Equity Council wrote some letters questioning. And I think I put some of that to bed immediately when I challenged both of those guys to lie detector tests. I said, “We don’t have to waste people’s time with this. Let’s take one.”

BRINSON: Hmm. What was the challenge that they were making?

PEEPLES: In, in those kinds of things, what’s usually public doesn’t have anything much to do with the real issue. We went through a superintendent search last spring and hired a new superintendent. Some of us in the African-American community, were pushing for the consideration of an African-American candidate. And we couldn’t get that sitting Board and the interim Superintendent to assure us that they would be on our side in terms of equity and so forth. So we weren’t particularly enamored with that. So one of the Board members, the make-up of the Equity Council is that each Board member appoints two people. So one of the Board members who was most vocal against us, two of his appointees--his two appointees, wrote letters questioning my leadership of the Equity Council, saying that I had run some people away. I had done some....Which was all untrue. But that’s what I challenged them to, you know. In the end it was all proven to be, proven to be untrue. But you know the way that thing works, if it makes the press, then you are guilty.

BRINSON: Right, well it was certainly...

PEEPLES: But my, hmm?

BRINSON: That was certainly clever of you to come up with a lie detector.

PEEPLES: Of course, yeah, let’s do it. I mean, if you feel like you are right, let’s test it.

BRINSON: Right, that’s good.

PEEPLES: And I went on television and made that challenge.

BRINSON: And was it quiet?

PEEPLES: It was all put to rest, you know, it just kind of went away. Then he later came back, the guy who wrote the first letter, came back and said, “In retrospect he wished, he would have discussed those issues with me, rather than write the letter.” But he knew what he was....The whole letter of intent was to, was to, it was character assassination. Another thing that I told him after it was all over, was, “I’ve got the thirty year reputation in this town and it takes more than one sleazy letter to bring me down.”

BRINSON: Right. How would you compare Kentucky in terms of race relations now, with other states?

PEEPLES: It’s interesting, I think--you know, Kentucky--and let’s start in Lexington. I think we are doing what a lot of other states and cities are still doing; is we kind of take one step forward and it seems like two back, or two forward and one back. And I think this whole reverse discrimination kind of thing has given some of the people who don’t want to see us go forward, in terms of race ( ), has given them impetus. I’ll being that even closer to home. When we first started the Equity Council, we had the total support of that Board; and I think we were making progress. We don’t have the total support of the sitting Board. And there are a lot of, you know the same kind of tactics as they are taking in the country--that were taken in the country to subvert progress made under Affirmative Action. We are starting to see some of the same kind of tactics with the Equity Council.

BRINSON: Would you want to say, Kentucky, the history of race relations in Kentucky now, is how? Is it any better than in some places? Is it worse?

PEEPLES: It’s kind of hard to say. I would, I guess to kind of summarize, I would say progress, you know, obviously we’ve made some, but we’ve probably got further to go than we’ve come. A whole lot further to go than we’ve come.

BRINSON: What about the future of the Urban League? Are there programs, policies, plans that you have for the Urban League here?

PEEPLES: Yes. I think that, you know, as an organization that’s deeply involved in community development, I think we have a strong future. As an organization that has been very responsible, and I think that’s really the key, been responsible in its advocacy. And when I say responsible, in that, we document, you know, we don’t take position just based on some, some--even though emotions are involved--you have to have more than just the emotions when you take positions. Because the opposition is always shrewd enough that they can disarm you with just emotions. You’ve got to have documentation. And in addition to documentation, when you take public positions, you want to be ready to make recommendations for remedies. And that’s kind of been, kind of been our approach to things.

BRINSON: Do you know a woman named Ann Beard Grundy?

PEEPLES: Sure. Beard.

BRINSON: Can I ask you a few questions about her?

PEEPLES: Certainly can.

BRINSON: Do you know about the Nia Day Camp?

PEEPLES: Uh hmm, some, some. I know that one of the things that Ann would tell you, is that the Nia Day Camp operates in the summer. And that I was one of the people that went to bat big time this summer with the Partners for Youth, to make sure, even at the risk of offending some of my peers and fellow workers--fellow Board members on the Equity--on the Partners for Youth Board. And saying that it bothered me that Ann was having such a struggle getting money for that, when her agency was about two blocks away from the site where Antonio Sullivan was killed; and we were funding other agencies all over the city. I think we had forgotten why the Partners for Youth came up. Ann and Katherine and Janet, the people who work with that, I have nothing but praise and admiration for them and what they try to do.

BRINSON: As I understand it now they take a large number of children on bus trips all over the country...

PEEPLES: I see that as the same concept that our parents had, because we were isolated in Eastern Kentucky.

BRINSON: Oh, right, uh huh.

PEEPLES: Yeah, that’s why I see the value, that’s why I see the value in that.

BRINSON: You’re right. So you all have been an official supporter in terms of helping with funds for the program.

PEEPLES: Not providing the funds, but me advocating for funds.

BRINSON: Advocating for funds, okay, okay. The Roots and Heritage Festival here, what role do you see Ann having had in any of that? And how important has the festival been to the community?

PEEPLES: History, the history of Lexington, will have to be totally kind to the people who put together the Roots and Heritage Festival; for the role that they displayed in galvanizing this community around that heritage. Forty thousand people, I mean that’s a major event. You compare that to draws in this town, and the only thing, I think, that draws larger than that routinely; is maybe U.K. football game. And they have, they have very methodically put that thing together and grown it and controlled it. What can you say but great things about it? I admire Catherine and them, the groups who put it--and they’ve gone about getting total community buy in, to that. And I’m not so sure if at the beginning there were some people in the white community who would have thought that they saw themselves buying in and supporting that activity to that degree. Some people probably saw it initially as just this little black community event that will stay over there, not swell into being the event that just draws folks from all over.

BRINSON: Well, how do you know Ann? Do you remember first meeting her?

PEEPLES: Chester and I went to U.K. together, okay? And so we have just this personal relationship that goes way back. And professionally, you know, Ann is a very active person in terms of education advocacy too; so we’ve locked horns on that battlefield.

BRINSON: Some people would say she’s a controversial leader in her advocacy.

PEEPLES: What’s the definition of controversial?

BRINSON: Some people...

PEEPLES: That’s my question to them.

BRINSON: Okay. Well what do, how do you see that?

PEEPLES: I think if you’re going to have a team, you got to have folks who can play different roles in different positions; that’s what makes it a team. You know everybody can’t play just the same position. One of the things that Hugh Price says--that’s my national CEO—is, “Some people have to raise hell to say that’s there no bridge, and then somebody has to come and build a bridge.”

BRINSON: And how do you see Ann’s contribution to the team?

PEEPLES: Oh, when I’ve worked with Ann on issues, you know, Ann has always been....Ann is one of those people who can be very vocal about issues. But also Ann is one of those kind of people, who can get behind the scenes and help you write some of the best presentations you have to have to support some of those kinds of things. And what I also like most is she is unselfish. Her eye is on the prize.

BRINSON: Okay, thank you. Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about today that you would like to add to this interview?

PEEPLES: [Big sigh] I’m sure we’ve missed something, because we are trying to talk about thirty years. I’m sure we’ve missed something.

BRINSON: Yeah, we’ve just begin to touch the surface.

PEEPLES: Let me just, let me just tell you, that as you review it, or if you review it--if there are some gaps that you find, I’m willing.

BRINSON: Okay.

PEEPLES: You know this is something that is near and dear to me, and not because of me, but because of the Urban League. Because the Urban League is near and dear to me. I consider myself a person who’s just been, who’s blessed to have had the opportunity to serve in this position. And it was more, and it has been more than just a job.

BRINSON: Thank you very much.

PEEPLES: Okay.

[Tape stops and starts]

BRINSON: We were talking earlier about the oral history project that you have done with the Urban League. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

PEEPLES: Yeah, my interest in that was peaked one time when I was just reading the paper and saw where there was someone doing some oral history interviews of governors. And I said, gosh this is a way for the Urban League to get involved in capturing history through the eyes of some African-American people. So we went to the Commission and got our first grant. Doctor Richard, Ricky Wright or George Wright was at the University of Kentucky then, so he and Terry Birdwhistle, you know, orchestrated our first batch. Then we did some more, I think we got one grant one time that focused only on African-American women. And Ann Grundy and Doctor Belle Parker, Emily Parker did those. I think we’ve had probably, I can’t remember exactly, but maybe about three or four grants. And I think we’ve got pretty close to two hundred tapes archived now.

BRINSON: And you, so they’re over in Special Collections at the University of Kentucky, but you have a copy?

PEEPLES: I have a copy here and we’ve also shared with families, you know, copies. And even today, I still hear from people, whose family members are on those tapes, who’ve passed on; who tell me how they now treasure those tapes. And I also advise people who I know and talk to, while, I mean it’s not a matter of how professionally the tapes are done; but make sure that you record your family some way.

BRINSON: So has the focus been on family history in the black community in Lexington?

PEEPLES: Family history, whatever, uh...

BRINSON: Community history?

PEEPLES: Yeah, if they, if the person, whatever their respective occupations and roles were, we want to capture that.

BRINSON: Other than collecting a very important collection and placing it where researchers can use it, do you have any other plans?

PEEPLES: Well we did get a few of those transcribed at this point, but ultimately my dream is to have a book.

BRINSON: To have a book, right. Have you collected any photos, I wonder?

PEEPLES: Uh, no, we don’t have any.

BRINSON: That is something that many of us in history are conscious of, that we don’t have very many ( ) photographs.

PEEPLES: When you ask that question it brings up, you know, in my role with the Urban League, how many other things I would love to be doing. But the fact, we don’t, we do as much as we can with what we have and we find that what that does--we’re always in position--we’re usually in position because some one else will come along and say, “Well, we can take this and build on it.” The tapes that we have right now, we are in dialogue with Gerald...

BRINSON: Gerald Smith?

PEEPLES: Gerald Smith and Joe Graves about moving to that next step of the book. And I just always had the dream that we’ll do as much as we can, that you know, good things will follow. And that’s kind of the way we do....You know, philosophically I always say to my staff, what we are going to do here at the Urban League, is we are going to continue to do the right thing for the right reason and hopefully the right will prevail.

BRINSON: Earlier you gave me the present amount of the Urban League budget, but I neglected to ask you, how many staff are there?

PEEPLES: Right now, I think I saw something, I think we have about--there are, right today eleven full time, and we have a few other vacancies that we are getting ready to fill. Probably this fiscal year we will rise to fifteen or sixteen.

BRINSON: Okay, thank you very much.

PEEPLES: Okay.

END OF INTERVIEW