Oral History Interview with Harold Alston

BETSY BRINSON: This is an interview with Harold T. Alston, Sr. The interview takes place in his office at Alston and Associates Realty in Paducah, Kentucky and the interviewer is Betsy Brinson.

BRINSON: Mr. Alston, would you give me your full name, please?

HAROLD ALSTON: My full name is Harold Thomas Alston, Senior.

BRINSON: Okay. Good.

ALSTON: Okay.

BRINSON: Well, thank you very much for agreeing to meet with me today. A number of people here in town suggested that I talk to you, and I think when I talked with you on the phone I explained that what I want to do is ask you first some questions about you . . .

ALSTON: All right.

BRINSON: . . . but then also about, uh, your perceptions of the whole history of the effort in Paducah to eliminate legal segregation. And we’ll talk anywhere from 1930 to 1975 era. Does that sound okay?

ALSTON: That’s fine. I’m familiar with those years. [laughing]

BRINSON: Okay. If we could begin please, tell me where and when you were born.

ALSTON: I was born in Paducah, Kentucky on January 1st, 1920.

BRINSON: Okay. So that makes you . . .

ALSTON: Eighty.

BRINSON: Eighty.

ALSTON: Correct.

BRINSON: Eighty years old. Okay. And have you lived pretty much of your life here in Paducah?

ALSTON: I have lived most of my life here in Paducah.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: Except for some time away in school and time away in the--serving in the armed services.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: During World War II.

BRINSON: Okay. I want to ask you about some of that, but let me go back and, and start by asking you to, uh, tell me a little bit about your early family. Uh, who, who made up your family in terms of brothers and sisters and . . .?

ALSTON: I come from a large family, a family of my parents, mother and father, and my seven—my six brothers and sisters.

BRINSON: Okay. And where do you fall in the range of those?

ALSTON: I am the oldest male.

BRINSON: Oldest male? Okay. And what can you tell me about your grandparents or your great-grandparents or . . .?

ALSTON: Uh, very little. My [clears throat] my grandfather on my mother’s side died a week before I was born. My grandfather and grandmother on my father’s side passed before I was born. I knew neither of them. Neither did I know either of my grandparents—my mother’s mother died when she was a little girl so I did not have the

privilege of knowing my grandparents.

BRINSON: Okay. Did you hear any stories, uh, from other family members about—did you grandparents live in Kentucky?

ALSTON: Well, my mother’s mother and father lived in Kentucky. He was employed with the Illinois Central Railroad. He was a Deacon in the church I attend now, Washington Street Missionary Baptist Church. Her mother died when she was a very small child. My father’s parents were born in Tennessee, the state of Tennessee, and I did not know them. They passed before I was born.

BRINSON: Okay. Tell me a little bit about your, um, early education.

ALSTON: Well, I attended a school, a small school, elementary school, segregated, of course, at that time, Garfield Elementary School.

BRINSON: Garfield?

ALSTON: Yes.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: And from there after graduating the twelfth, at the sixth grade, I, uh, enrolled in Lincoln High School. It was junior high and high school all the same, and that was in 1932.

BRINSON: That you enrolled?

ALSTON: That I enrolled, yes. [phone rings] They will get that.

BRINSON: Tell me where Garfield School was located.

ALSTON: It was located just about a block from my home which was 808 North Tenth Street, and the school was at Ninth and Harris, Harris Street.

BRINSON: Okay. Now, was there also a Lincoln Elementary School?

ALSTON: Right. Lincoln Elementary School was on South Side, that was on the South Side, on South Eighth before Howe and Tennessee Street.

BRINSON: And then Lincoln High School was the only black high school in town?

ALSTON: In the city, yes.

BRINSON: Right. Okay. And what year did you graduate from Lincoln High School?

ALSTON: Uh, 1939.

BRINSON: Nineteen thirty-nine. Okay. Um, I want to ask you some things, uh, about your school. It was all segregated, of course.

ALSTON: Yes.

BRINSON: Did, uh--do you remember about your teachers and in particular I’m trying to find out if you have any recollection of where they did their teachers training.

ALSTON: No. I’m afraid I don’t.

BRINSON: Okay. It’s not the kind of thing most people would remember.

ALSTON: No, I don’t remember that.

BRINSON: Many, many teachers then were trained at Kentucky State University . . .

ALSTON: Kentucky State. I think, I think that’s perhaps where some of them received their training, at Kentucky State, uh, Kentucky State College it was called back then.

BRINSON: Right.

ALSTON: In Frankfort.

BRINSON: Right. And also during that period the state had a program—because they wouldn’t admit black teachers into graduate programs—they would pay to send them to, during the summer and whatnot, to universities in other states.

ALSTON: Correct. Yes.

BRINSON: Do you have any recollection that any of your teachers might have done that?

ALSTON: They did. Uh, but then some of my teachers did not, uh, get their graduate, their graduate training until later years. I believe some of them I know did--received their graduate work at Murray State, at Murray State.

BRINSON: Murray State?

ALSTON: Yes.

BRINSON: Okay. How far is Murray State from Paducah?

ALSTON: Uh, about forty miles.

BRINSON: Okay. Uh, can you recall for me, please, maybe when you first realized that you were growing up in a segregated society?

ALSTON: Yes, uh, yes. That was, uh--early on I realized that, uh--you had to know it if you, even if you got away from your home, you knew that you were in a segregated society. When I came up, you know, you went to the courthouse. They had fountains for colored only, restrooms for colored only.

BRINSON: And what else was like that in town that you remember?

ALSTON: Well, well, at, uh, you know, restaurants you had to go to the back door. If you wanted to be served, you had to go to the back door. I did, I did not receive that type, that ( ) going to a back door because I just didn’t attend, I didn’t frequent those places.

BRINSON: Did you ever try to go to a movie?

ALSTON: Yes.

BRINSON: And what was that like?

ALSTON: They had a side door. Had Columbia and Arcade Theaters here in Paducah and you went in the side door and you went up to the balcony.

BRINSON: Up to the balcony?

ALSTON: Yes.

BRINSON: And what if you wanted to buy some popcorn or candy?

ALSTON: Uh, I—that wasn’t available at the time, as I recall.

BRINSON: Okay. So, so food there wasn’t really an issue?

ALSTON: No.

BRINSON: Uh, remember any movies that you saw there?

ALSTON: No, I don’t. I sure don’t.

BRINSON: Okay. Uh, what about libraries here in Paducah for . . .

ALSTON: We had the, the Carnegie Library at Ninth and Broadway.

BRINSON: And—now, was that an all-black library?

ALSTON: No.

BRINSON: It was . . .

ALSTON: It was, uh, it was, uh, white. All the employees except custodian was white. But we could use the facilities there.

BRINSON: You could use it and, and did. Is that pretty much where people in the black community went to take out books?

ALSTON: Yes. It was the only place we had.

BRINSON: Okay. In some communities, um, there was no—there was either a separate black library or that was it. So in some communities, the schools, uh, frequently used their libraries as the local community libraries. That didn’t happen here?

ALSTON: No, we had a library and a school. But, uh, uh, that wasn’t—they had books that ( ) but we, we used the public library.

BRINSON: Okay. Did you work at all while you were growing up?

ALSTON: Definitely.

BRINSON: What kinds of things did you do?

ALSTON: Uh, pretty much one thing. I—at a very early age, because of a large family—an early age, my father was--it was called laid off from work--he wasn’t dismissed. ( ) Illinois Central Railroad ( ) and he was laid off in 1933. That was—you don’t recall, but that was the year of the Great Depression.

BRINSON: Right. Uh-huh.

ALSTON: And, uh, and he was laid off from work, and so I was just--well, I started to work just before then at age twelve delivering groceries on Saturday, just helping out around the store. Uh, grocery store was only half a block from my home, ( ) Grocery. I worked, just did little odd things. I would hand butchered meat out of the box for a person that couldn’t bend over, and I got canned meat out of the box. And then I would deliver groceries on bicycle in, close to my home. And just helped generally with chores there, uh, clean up, sweep the floors.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: But I worked there, uh, before school. At that period I was going to Lincoln School and I would walk to Lincoln School, about two miles from my home. I would, uh, go in the morning, clean up the store. I started work in the summer, of course, but then I continued when school opened in September. And I would walk to school . . .

BRINSON: You walked two miles?

ALSTON: Uh, yes. And after school walk back home and, and then I’d go home, change my clothes, and go to work.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: I worked there until I completed high school.

BRINSON: Long time.

ALSTON: Uh-hmm. Worked—you know, as time progressed, I worked even after school, all day Saturday, and a half a day on Sunday. And it--I, I needed that money to help support my family.

BRINSON: Okay. Uh, when you were in school, Mr. Alston, did any of your teachers teach you what they would have called Negro History at that point in time?

ALSTON: Oh yes. Definitely.

BRINSON: What, what do you remember about that?

ALSTON: I remember, I remember quite a bit about that. Uh, the, you know, the, the insurrectionists, the inventors. We had so many blacks that invented a lot of the tubes and equipment that we use today. Benjamin Banneker, Phyllis Weatley, Truth and Sojourn; there was so many that, uh, and Crispus Attucks. Uh, so many that—she was a very good teacher. She knew her history, and we had to know it. We were told.

BRINSON: Right.

ALSTON: And, and it was very beneficial. You know, you have to know that you have people in your race that have accomplished things, that have reached goals. You need to understand that that potential’s out there for you if you want it.

BRINSON: Okay. I’m going to stop you just [interruption] . . . talking about your, your learning about Negro History while you were attending school.

ALSTON: Uh-huh, Mrs.—my instructor at Lincoln School, Lincoln High School was Mrs. Weston, Mrs. Alice Weston.

BRINSON: Okay. [interruption] So you graduated in 1939?

ALSTON: Correct.

BRINSON: And then what?

ALSTON: Well, I graduated from high school and from the year I graduated from high school, I began working for an insurance company as an agent, Mammoth Life and Accident Insurance Company.

BRINSON: Okay. Big insurance company out of Louisville.

ALSTON: Correct. Their office is in Louisville. At that time it was 606 West Walnut. [laughing] And, uh, so I worked for them. I left the insurance company to return to school, and it was years before—I graduated in thirty-nine; and the war began, you know, in December forty-one. So there wasn’t a lot of time lapse there to work. I knew I wasn’t prepared to do the things I thought I needed to do in the service. I had—at the store I worked, one of the sons was a electronic technician and I learned--I loved electronics. So I enrolled in West Kentucky in a program there that was designed to train you in, for—it wasn’t an engineering course, electronics course.

BRINSON: This was Western Kentucky . . .

ALSTON: West Kentucky Vocational School.

BRINSON: Vocational school . . . which was an all-black school?

ALSTON: Correct. At that time, it was black. And, of course, we left from there and went to Lexington, to Johnson and, uh, uh, Transylvania, [phone rings] Avon, at that time. So we studied at three schools there. I think I got those papers—I’m sure I have—where I graduated from each state, at each state, each level. And I was—that what I served as, electronics technician, in, in, in the service. In the United States and in Germany—I’m sorry, in Italy.

BRINSON: In Italy? [interruption]

ALSTON: In fact, I was in school in Lexington, Kentucky when I was called--the draft board called me. I’m, I’m married at this time and, and the draft board sent me a letter, of course, to report (laughing) for duty. And, I--( ) and I talked and I wanted to finish my schooling so I—on the weekend, I returned to Paducah and visited my draft board and told them I had joined the Reserve in, uh, Lexington. They had no word of that but they said in fact if I had joined the Reserve, I would be exempt at that time, until I finished my, my schooling. And so I went back to Lexington and I was able--and remained there until I finished my courses. I returned—I paid my way then to, to (laughing), I was reimbursed ( ) to Columbus, Ohio where I was inducted into service, Columbus, Ohio. Left there and went to Tuskegee, Alabama and, uh, I was attached to the 332nd Fighting Group. But I was studying radar ( ), and we were studying radar. It was one of the highly-rated companies and you had to maintain a grade average--I believe at that time of eighty-five--because all, [coughs] we had--all the black recruits that had electronic training that passed the test, was given an opportunity in that group so it was—if you made less than eighty-five, you know, you were out of it. You, you stayed in school but you were at a lower level. You wasn’t studying radar maintenance where I was. At that time it was very highly secretive and, uh, and it was just a challenge, you know, studying. And you couldn’t be--lectured to daily and, uh, all day and at the end of the day you had a test. You couldn’t take notes. You had to retain the information. Quite a challenge, quite a challenge.

BRINSON: That would be hard.

ALSTON: I liked it.

BRINSON: So when you finished the program, were you sent to Europe at that point?

ALSTON: Well no, that, uh, that company was deactivated, and we went into another program. I was sent to, uh, to—I left Tuskegee and went to Selfridgeville, Michigan.

BRINSON: To where?

ALSTON: Selfridgeville, Michigan.

BRINSON: Uh-huh.

ALSTON: You know, that’s right out of Mt. Clements, just south of Mt. Clements. Selfridgeville, Michigan, it’s an air base. I stayed there for several months and as a, as a technician, I left out of the company I was in and went to 1000 Signal. That’s with the—that’s the 15th Air Force; I shipped out overseas with the 15th Air Force. I decided--I had some friends that were pilots there. I decided I wanted to be a pilot. I sent back home for some material. I—we had to get some references, and so I sent back to people for references. And the day I laid my papers on the first sergeant’s desk, that morning at revelry [phone rings] they had froze all applications because we were going to ship out overseas, so I didn’t get to go.

BRINSON: You didn’t get to go.

ALSTON: Didn’t get to go to pilot’s school. I later—when I returned from the service, I studied--I went to ( ) Air Field and studied there, flying, out at the airport here. I did not get to complete it because by this time I had family, I was working, I was District Manager of Mammoth Insurance here, and so I couldn’t—I’d find myself ( ) my office, I’d be up over ( ) Illinois. And, of course, I couldn’t do that, support my family, you know, so [phone rings] I had to leave. I didn’t get my license.

BRINSON: So, I wonder if being involved in the training and all and seeing some new places during the war, if that shaped your understanding in any way of what an integrated society might be like?

ALSTON: It did. It really did. One of the things here, you know, we didn’t have much incentive to do anything. I recall that my next-door neighbor—his mother worked hard washing, took in washing and ironing. That was quite common in that day. Sent her son to college and--matter of fact, two young men in my neighborhood, they went to Kentucky State. And they returned home and they couldn’t get anything to do so they worked out in service. And they were earning the same money I was earning; I was in high school. They were older than I—of course, I was in high school and working part time, and I was earning as much money as they were making ‘cause they were working as chauffeurs, houseboys. Because they couldn’t get, they just couldn’t get a job in the profession they had chosen.

BRINSON: When you came back, you, you were working for the insurance company and raising your family. What was happening, if anything, in the community . . . [interruption] We stopped for a moment but we, I was asking you if, uh, having been away with the military, that helped to shape your thinking about race relations back home in Paducah in any way.

ALSTON: It did. Uh-huh. One of the things that I think is important to note, the city in Paducah—I related the incident about my neighbor that had been to school which seemed like a waste of time when he couldn’t get anything to do when he got back. And I recall after leaving, was inducted at Fort Hays and went back to, came back to Tuskegee, Alabama and leaving there and going to Michigan and talking with soldiers, with my officers—I knew several of them—and I found one of the things that was interesting that in places north of Paducah, for instance, I had some friends out of Cincinnati and they didn’t have as much segregation there as they had here locally. And those people just, just was doing great things, you know, that’s just unheard of locally, which gave me an incentive to go ahead and do something. It just suggested that you could be something, you could do what you wanted to do. You just had to work for it.

BRINSON: Right. I also wonder, uh, I’ve heard—tell me if this is correct--that Western Kentucky Vocational School attracted students from around the country.

ALSTON: That is true.

BRINSON: That it had a national reputation at the time. And I wonder if any of the students who came here from other places looked about and said, you know, “This is different here than elsewhere and it ought to be better.” Or whether there was any of that influence operating here?

ALSTON: You know, even though there were some areas that were not so segregated; segregation was pretty well the universal thing no matter where they came from. In the service, I had an opportunity—I was in places like Detroit, Michigan, Saginaw, Michigan. I was in Michigan, all of Michigan, because my base station was there, and I stayed there for several months; [clears throat] and they were suffering the same indignities that we were here. It just wasn’t—but there was so many--and these were isolated cases where people were given opportunities and took advantage of opportunities; they advanced and achieved their goals. But just generally speaking, it was all over. In New York--we had soldiers from all over and we all, uh, suffered the same indignities in segregation. Our opportunities were limited. The difference is that we saw from those few that made the break out of that mold, that there was a possibility, that we could come out of it. Here it just seemed like a hopeless situation that, you know, before leaving the area. It seemed like here just a hopeless situation. You were just, you know, you were just going to be suppressed and segregated against all your life. So to leave this area and go where people were—other areas, you could see that, you know, it could make a difference.

BRINSON: I know that there was a NAACP chapter here but I don’t know how far back . . .

ALSTON: It was—it’s been—it was, dated way back. When I was a youngster, I belonged to NAACP. I’m a life member of NAACP now and, uh, I encouraged and worked with NAACP for a number of years.

BRINSON: And so when you came back from the service, uh, what was happening with the NAACP at that point in time?

ALSTON: NAACP was very active. We had a very active President of NAACP in the person of Curly Brown. Now you’ve heard of him.

BRINSON: I have.

ALSTON: He, he was very active and daring. A lot of things were accomplished, made a lot of advancements during his tenure here as President. He was President a long time of the NAACP.

BRINSON: Okay. And you said you were a member. Were you ever an officer of the NAACP?

ALSTON: An officer? No, I was not an officer of NAACP.

BRINSON: Uh, tell me at what point [phone rings] did you move into real estate?

ALSTON: I moved into real estate when my son said, “Dad, why do you want to go back to school? You’re doing all right.” I was working at the post office. I left insurance to go to work at a plant here--they were building Martin-Marietta--as a carpenter. I didn’t know anything about carpentry but I, I--at that period, I was pretty apt. I can learn. And I bought overalls, bought some lumber, bought some books, and [laughing] and I kind of started off training myself. Then I went to school at West Kentucky Vocational School again for carpentry. So, I, I got a job there. I was going to get—I wanted a job there—as you—I know you know about the problems they’re having now, radiation with the waste material. That has caused some problems. When they first opened—well, before, before carbon, Carbide was the first, I believe, uh, person, not person but the first group that had the plant. During the time they were looking for employees, we were just getting back out of service; and I and three other electronic technicians went down--went down to get a job--to apply for a job. Well, I was sitting at a glass front; you could see inside. I had already interviewed, filled an application. One of my friends went inside. I noticed something peculiar. I noticed on, on the black applicants they put a C right in the corner. You know, it’s not--easy to distinguish when a person, when they go up in the corner of your application and do that. I knew what they were doing. I went and requested—after he came out, I told him, I told my friend what they were doing. I went in and waited, waited and asked to speak to the person that interviewed me. I asked him, said, “May I see my application?” He said, “No.” They couldn’t show it to me again. It was their property now; they couldn’t take it out. “What do you want with it? Got corrections?” I said, “No,” I said, “I observed you putting a C in the corner of my application. I’d like to see it.” “No, no we can’t do that.” Said, “May I just see it? I don’t want it in my hand. Just hold it up for me to see it.” “No, we can’t. Once we put it in the file, we can’t take it out.” And that was something else I carried to the NAACP, but the fact is weren’t any of us hired. They weren’t looking for people with electronic backgrounds. We had served our country as electronic technicians and we were denied employment because of our race. That’s just an incident that . . . [laughter—Brinson] I’m probably better off [laughing] after, after what’s happened, but, nevertheless, I felt terrible at that time.

BRINSON: And at that point you didn’t really have a remedy like the law . . .

ALSTON: No.

BRINSON: . . . or a human relations commission, or . . .

ALSTON: No, no.

BRINSON: You had the NAACP.

ALSTON: Yeah, the NAACP. But they were limited as to what they could do, accomplish. You know, I had a lot of training. I had a business as a television, radio repair person after coming back from the service one time and so I was—I wasn’t just in school; I was learning. And, uh, but, I could not—I said I wasn’t—I didn’t have a lot of knowledge as a carpenter, but I was an electronic technician. They would not hire me as an electrician, and an electrician is basic to the course I was taking. But they wouldn’t give me any consideration, you know, into the, into the electrician unit, to go to work out there as an electrician. They told all kinds of lies, you know, that the business agent would never be in, nobody I could talk to [phone rings]. And so I just ( ) an opportunity.

BRINSON: Now you worked for the United States [phone rings] Post Office?

ALSTON: Yes.

BRINSON: And was employment an issue there because of color?

ALSTON: Oh yes. Every place. [laughing] I went, I went to work there and the postmaster’s name was Louie Miller and, uh—remember now, I’m in insurance at that time—and I was doing pretty good, you know, I was earning a better than average income. But I had to travel a lot . . .

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

ALSTON: . . . because I was traveling. My brother-in-law had applied for a job and got a job at the post office--took the test and got a job. And he was encouraging me to come on down and get a job since I wanted to quit traveling so much. I had a family, I’d been in service, I’d been in service. I went to Ohio to get a job at, out at Wright-Patterson Air Base and I was qualified for a job there and just had to wait for my turn though. So, uh, he said, “Why don’t you just, uh, get a job at the post office? Get a good job at the post office here?” I said, “Well, I may go down and talk to them.” So I—by this time, I’ve advanced to District Manager of the insurance company. So in that day, uh--even when I first went into, uh, into real estate, you wore a shirt and tie every day [laughter], you know. Of course, everything’s more casual now. But I always felt comfortable with a shirt and tie on because I’d worn it so much. So when I went down to talk to the postmaster about a job, I had on a suit, shirt and tie. And this didn’t sit too well with him. He’d been accustomed to hiring people that, minorities, you know, that, uh, I guess looked more like they were working people. And he just told me, “I don’t think you want a job down here.” I said, “Sure, I do.” He’d looked at my application. I had filled out an application. Said, “We don’t pay as much money as you’re earning.” I said, “I think so.” I said, “You know,” I said, “There’s other considerations too. Have to do a lot of traveling; I want to stay at home. I think I’d like it down here. The pay, I think, will be all right.” And he just discouraged me from taking the test. I took the test, uh—anyway, I applied for the test and I took the test. And, uh, I passed the test but, uh, I couldn’t get hired. And so—now, I’m working at the plant. I got a job—I left insurance and went to--I told you I went to work as a carpenter because I could get in carpenter local; I couldn’t get in at electrician local. And so I—we got rained out one day. I had on boots and muddy overalls, muddy—and I drug all that mud in his office. I knocked on the door, and he let me in. And he looked at me one time and he said, “Well,” he said, “We may have something for you.” [laughing] “But we don’t have . . .” He said, “We don’t have a carrier’s desk. We don’t have any openings for clerk/carrier, but we do have an opening for mail handler. Now if you want to take a mail handler’s position, we’ll let you have that, and then when a clerk/carrier job comes open, you can have that.” Now, remember I passed the clerk/carrier test. So I said, “Yeah, I’ll take that.” But sure enough, he was true to his word. It was temporary employment—I knew that. I started in about the fifteenth of December. I had to leave my job that I had working as a carpenter. I was making much more money, but I knew that was temporary. It wasn’t going to last and I needed something more stable. So I went to work there as a, as a mail handler and, uh, the man just lied to me, you know. He said, “Well,”—he’d see me, say, “Well, going to get an opening pretty soon.” And he didn’t know that, you know, young men talk. The white fellows that I worked with, they had taken the test and failed it but they were hired anyway as a clerk/carrier. I passed the test and I couldn’t get a job as a clerk/carrier. And, you know, they just talking about it. I didn’t tell them what had happened to me. They just talked. But I knew what had happened. Well, the postmaster, who was white—a very fine person—he just could die, you know—and fair person, -minded person. And we were talking and I told him what had happened to me and, uh, I told him what I was going to do about it. I was going to Fair Employment Officer in Cincinnati. I asked him if he knew him ‘cause he’d been an inspector but demoted. So he said, “Oh, you might not have to do that.” I knew he was a friend of the postmaster. So the next day--after I told him I was going up there--the next day the postmaster came by and said, “We got an opening.” [laughter] But he said, “I wouldn’t advise you—you don’t want to take it though.” He said, “You get all the time you want now but you take that position that’s a, that’s a carrier . . .”--and I didn’t want to be a carrier because I’d never worked outside; I worked on the inside. And they didn’t have a clerk--it was the same test, it was called clerk/carrier test. Said, “So we can hire you as a clerk or carrier. We don’t have any clerk jobs open but carrier job.” Said, “The weather is very nasty here. You’ll be working out in all kinds of weather. In here, you’re in here where it’s nice and dry.” He just discouraged me. He said, “I know you’ve got a family and right now, you know, you’re getting forty hours a week. But you may be getting twenty hours or twenty-two hours a week. Don’t know if that will be enough to take care of your family. But you think about it. If you want it, you know, we can give it to you.” So I talked to my supervisor, a person I had known because this person having had traded at the grocery store I worked at when I was a kid. And I knew him fairly well, and so he told me, “Oh, don’t pay no attention to him.” Said, uh, “You go ahead and take the job.” Said, “You’ll get plenty of time.” He also told me he didn’t know if I’d--when I’d make regular because there were so many people ahead of me. I knew that was false because—we had talked—I knew I had the highest grade so I knew I’d be, probably be up next. But he, he lied about that. Nevertheless, make it brief, I told him I would accept it. I accepted the job as a carrier and, uh . . .

BRINSON: Were you the first black carrier hired in Paducah?

ALSTON: I was the first regular black carrier, yes. I was the first black carrier on regular status. There had been somebody that carried some mail one time or two times but the first black carrier . . .

BRINSON: And how long did you work for the post office?

ALSTON: I worked for the post office for twenty-seven years.

BRINSON: Twenty-seven years.

ALSTON: I retired. With my army time, two years in the service, my twenty-seven years at the post office service, I retired in 1979.

BRINSON: Okay. 1979. Okay. And at that point did you come into realty?

ALSTON: No, I had—I was in real estate.

BRINSON: You were in real estate.

ALSTON: I—yeah, I was discouraged. I had taken another test at the post office. I didn’t carry all the time, I loved taking tests and so . . .

BRINSON: [laughing] You loved taking tests?

ALSTON: I had taken a test and I was, I was a Civil Service Examiner. I got the job

as Examiner--giving tests, all kinds of tests, civil service tests. And, uh, that job—I held that job about three years, and the job was abolished. And so I had to revert back to, to a carrier, uh, but, uh, at that time, uh, I got the job and that was another—I tell you, I’ve had so many problems, you wouldn’t believe it. At the time I took the test for the, for the Examiner, Civil Service Examiner, and they gave it to a white person, of course; and that had less score than I had. And, uh, I called, I wrote to the Fair Employment Officer in Cincinnati, and, uh, and I really didn’t wanted to pursue it ‘cause I don’t like disappointments. I said, “I’m just going to prepare to leave.” That’s when I started taking tests and returned to school, went to Paducah Community College. I went to ( ) Business College first . . .

BRINSON: Tell me the name of . . .

ALSTON: ( ) Business College, to take a course in real estate. Later I went to PCC. But at that time, you know, I was, you know, I was going to leave, but I got a family. I can’t just walk away, you know. I got to have something to do. But during this period of time, the guy that--the Fair Employment officer came down and, uh, but he wasn’t very helpful. And he was, he was black. But after he talked to the postmaster, he left without even talking to me any more. I had that happen on two occasions.

BRINSON: I’m interested to know . . . because you were a federal employee and there was the Hatch Act in those days that said, “We don’t want our employees involved in partisan politics . . .”

ALSTON: That’s correct.

BRINSON: “. . . or other controversial kinds of things. ‘ How did that affect your involvement in the community here or did it?

ALSTON: In what sense?

BRINSON: Well, did it keep you out of activities like political parties or, uh, were--keep you out of the NAACP?

ALSTON: No, no, no. As a matter of fact, I didn’t talk about it a lot—I had been--you know, when you grow up in--with that--in the atmosphere I had come up in, you ( ) you got to just fight. You got to fight your way all the way until it’s just, it’s just another fight, you know. And I decided to abandon it. I didn’t pursue it anymore after he went back to Cincinnati. And I had another incident later, years later that was similar to that when I took a test. Remember, I love tests. I took a test—this was another test to examine the books. I was pretty good in mathematics and so, [phone rings] and I had a lot of experience. As I said, I had been manager of an insurance company, knew how to use all types of office equipment; and I had submitted a resume for another type of examiner. This was to go in and examine books in the post office as opposed to giving tests, what the first one was all about. And I, I was—no wait, I think about three persons out of my office that took the test—because they were kind of afraid of it. And, uh, and, uh--but I passed the test and I was fortunate enough to make a pretty good grade. But they—I thought I was going to get the job, but they gave it to another guy, a relative to the postmaster.

BRINSON: Let me ask you a question or two about Paducah and—what was going on here in the early sixties, uh, as, in the way of opening . . .?

ALSTON: ( ) school?

BRINSON: Well, a little later than that with public accommodations, like opening up the restaurants and theaters and whatnot.

ALSTON: Housing.

BRINSON: Housing. Tell me a little bit about the housing because that—you’re a realtor so you know that area. Uh, was there—of course, in Louisville and at the state level sixty-seven, sixty-eight, there was a whole open housing movement. Uh, what was happening in Paducah along those lines?

ALSTON: In Paducah, uh, we didn’t have a big problem with, in, in selling houses in the area. Paducah, if you’d been here—well, you know we’re pretty much scattered, minorities on the south side, north side, west side, all over but in few numbers, you know. But it’s just been like that. Majority did live, I’ll say ‘across the tracks’ but we had them kind of scattered around. So it hasn’t—I only had one incident, it’s been a number of years ago--I sold a house that, uh, to a young couple and as they were moving in—it was on Estes Lane--guys came by in a truck and they were beginning to call them names, you know. They said, “You better get away from here; we’re going to be back tonight.” Uh, but it so happened that this young lady had a, had a cousin that was a deer hunter, had all kind of rifles and guns. So she called him and, and he came up and parked his vehicle near the front yard, got a couple of his rifles out, on his shoulder, walked in the house. And that truck—he stayed there; they didn’t have no more trouble. Nobody bothered them. But they was just somebody trying to intimidate them, you know. But we didn’t--I never had any serious problems.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: I’ve shown houses all over this town and back as far as the seventies. And, oh, they would be curious. I’d go with a minority couple in an all-white neighborhood and kids—I’d say, “Go in the house.” I’d see curtains go back, you know. Somebody come to the door and peep out the door but no incidents.

BRINSON: I had the experience recently in Raleigh, North Carolina where I asked the realtor about how multi-cultural the neighborhood was, uh, because I was interested in a multi-cultural neighborhood. And she said to me that she couldn’t tell me that, by law. Uh, and I certainly appreciate the history of why that was true.

ALSTON: Sure.

BRINSON: But, but now you can’t find that out from your realtor.

ALSTON: That’s right.

BRINSON: You can ask almost anything else.

ALSTON: Yes. But they’re not permitted to divulge that information. Uh-huh.

BRINSON: Right. Okay.

ALSTON: But, uh, one thing that did happen—my son, who’s also a realtor, he’s not here right now—he belongs to the union and they’re trying to negotiate something with the city. You read something about that in the paper I’m sure, the morning paper. Uh, finally going to get the mayor to agree to some compromise. But [clears throat] . . .

BRINSON: I don’t know that I did actually.

ALSTON: Sure enough.

BRINSON: Tell me what that’s about.

ALSTON: Oh, goodness. I don’t know where I put that paper up.

BRINSON: Just tell me. He’s with the union . . .

ALSTON: Yeah, he’s also—he works here but he’s also a fireman, and they just, the city just refuses to negotiate. They told them “naw” they weren’t going to do nothing. They weren’t even going to talk about another contract. They just, they just, you know, continue working but they, they wasn’t, he wasn’t going to try to negotiate a contract. They would do it their way or no way at all, something to that effect.

BRINSON: Okay. So that’s where he is today?

ALSTON: Yes.

BRINSON: And you were about to tell me an example, uh, we talked about open housing . . .

ALSTON: Oh yeah. That son [cough—Brinson] was living out there--before he married, he was living out in the area he lives now, the East Concord area, a duplex. But he was getting married—and he’s got his wife’s picture here; I’ll show it to you. She works at the bank.

BRINSON: How old is your son?

ALSTON: Uh, he’s fifty-one.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: Nevertheless, he was trying to rent an apartment. He was getting married, he wanted to rent an apartment cause it was kind of a bachelor apartment he had. He needed something for his wife. And, uh, and he was turned down for several apartments. He’d look in the paper and the paper would say, you know, that the apartment was available. He’d call them and apartment was available, but he would and they would see he was black--it had just been rented. So . . .

BRINSON: That was recently?

ALSTON: No, no. No, no. That was twenty years ago.

BRINSON: Oh, okay.

ALSTON: Uh, he was—I said, “Ron,” I said, “We just got to do something about this.” Said, “I’ll get a friend of mine to go and see if he can rent that apartment.” I was at the post office but I had some friends there that, uh, that were real friends. So I asked one, told him what my problem was. I said, “You see if you can rent that apartment.” I said, “If you do, you’ll probably have to go to court.” He said, “Oh, that’s okay.” So he did. He went—Jack rented the apartment. They called him, they showed him the apartment. But then they carried it to, to Frankfort, to . . .

BRINSON: Frankfort?

ALSTON: To, to Civil Rights, uh-huh. To Civil Right Commission in, in Frankfort and they sent a lawyer, his name I think was Aubrey. You remember an attorney there . ?

BRINSON: There was a Phillip Ardery, A-R-D-E-R . . .

ALSTON: No, Aubrey.

BRINSON: No, I don’t.

ALSTON: First name. Uh, anyway, he was an attorney. And it’s been, it’s been, I’d say at least twenty years ago. They came down here. We won the case. It wasn’t one, it was two different places that we, that we sued and we won it. But it wasn’t anything. I think it was--it was minimal amount of money. But the idea was--the next opening to notify him, which they didn’t do.

BRINSON: Let me ask you because you now—you’ve had the Human Relations Commission for a while here . . .

ALSTON: Yes.

BRINSON: . . . in Paducah. How effective have they been in handling discrimination complaints?

ALSTON: As you probably know, the lady that was here, she was on that committee, commission here.

BRINSON: Shirley Cooper was on—I know she was on the state commission . . .

ALSTON: Louise Cooper. Yeah, she was on the city prior to going to the state. Uh-huh. Yeah. And they’ve been—they’ve done a good job, a commendable job.

BRINSON: So that’s been a resource for the community?

ALSTON: Yes, it has.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: But . . .

BRINSON: How, how do you know Shirley Cooper?

ALSTON: How do I know her? Oh, I’ve known her for years and years, used to go to my church.

BRINSON: Okay. Okay.

ALSTON: She used to go to my church. She sang in the choir there and she taught, she taught out at—she’s retired from teaching position out at McNabb School.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: She and my wife, see, she and my wife are good friends.

BRINSON: I’m coming to the end but I have one more question and that is: how, uh, how far do you think the black community has come in Paducah in terms of achieving racial equality at this point in time, in the year 2000?

ALSTON: I would say that we’re--we’ve come a long ways, we’ve come a long ways but we got a long ways to go. But we have come, I can sincerely say that we’ve come a long way even in this profession.

BRINSON: In real estate?

ALSTON: When I was going to school--when I was going to school to take, to study real estate, uh, the Paducah Board of Realty changed the laws. Said you had to come in—you could not be affiliated with the Paducah Board of Realtors on a part-time basis. And they knew full well I was working at the post office, and it was coming close to my retirement period, and I wasn’t about—and they knew I had a family at that time--and I wasn’t about to, you know, couldn’t leave that and come into real estate full time. So they changed the law to keep me out. I couldn’t get, uh, I couldn’t get--no one would—I had to have a sponsor by a broker. No one could sponsor me because I was going to be coming in part time.

BRINSON: And so you didn’t have any remedy at that point . . .

ALSTON: Oh yeah. I found a remedy.

BRINSON: How did you do that?

ALSTON: Did you know Fred Morgan?

BRINSON: Fred . . .

ALSTON: Fred Morgan, Representative Fred Morgan.

BRINSON: No.

ALSTON: He, he was in the legislature in Frankfort and he was a realtor. And he also had an insurance agency here. And I had known him for a number of years. And I went by there—after I exhausted all my possibilities of getting in with someone--I saw Fred one day. I said, “Fred, how about you sponsoring me, uh, as a realtor so I can hang my license in your office?” He said, “You know, I’m not active. I keep my license but I’m not active.” Said, uh, “I’d sponsor you but I’m not here. If you sell something, you’d have to do it all yourself.” At that time, you couldn’t close out yourself; you had to ( ). I said, “Well, I don’t have many alternatives.” I said, “We’d have to wait till you come home to do any closing, if I was fortunate enough to sell something.” He said, “Okay.” Said, “I’ll sponsor you.” So I did and so he did sponsor. That’s how I got in.

BRINSON: He sponsored you and you were part time?

ALSTON: Yes. But he wasn’t—he was one of the few people that had a license was not a member of the Board.

BRINSON: Okay.

ALSTON: See, he was inactive. His license was current.

BRINSON: But weren’t you still in violation . . .?

ALSTON: We had several people that weren’t members of the Board. Beg your pardon?

BRINSON: Weren’t you still in violation of the full-time law at that point in time?

ALSTON: No, I didn’t belong to the Board. They can’t keep you from being a realtor. They can’t stop you from being a realtor, selling real estate. But they can stop you from selling properties on, in multiple listing.

BRINSON: I see.

ALSTON: Don’t have to let you show their properties. But they can’t keep me from listing and selling my properties.

BRINSON: Right. Okay.

ALSTON: So we were not in violation.

BRINSON: Mr. Alston, is there anything else that I haven’t asked you that you think is important to this topic to share?

ALSTON: Uh, you know, there’s, there’s just no end [laughter] . . . Remember, I’m an old man and I’ve had so many experiences. And, uh, but one of the things that gets me through all my problems, I’ve been a Christian since I was twelve years old and I just carry it to the Lord.

BRINSON: Thank you very much. That’s a good . . .

ALSTON: [laughing]

END OF INTERVIEW