Oral History Interview with Charles Allen Williams

BETSY BRINSON: This is an interview with Charles Allen Williams at his residence in Paducah, Kentucky, and the interviewer is Betsy Brinson. Mr. Williams, would you just, I need to get a voice level here. Give me your full name, please.

CHARLES WILLIAMS: Charles Allen Williams.

BRINSON: Okay. Well thank you, Mr. Williams for meeting with me today. Let’s begin, please, with a little information about you. Could you tell me where and when you were born, please?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I was born in Obion County, Tennessee in 1915.

BRINSON: And so that makes you...

WILLIAMS: Eighty-four years old.

BRINSON: Eighty-four years old. And could you tell me a little bit about your growing up? Who was in your family, for example?

WILLIAMS: Well, my father and mother, and I had a younger sister, that was four years younger than me, and later on, one that was seventeen years younger. I grew up on a farm, fifty-four acres. My father was a farmer. He did other work at town, as a book keeper for the tobacco auction house.

BRINSON: And did you do all your early schooling there, in that community?

WILLIAMS: Yes, in South Fulton. I graduated from South Fulton High School, let’s see, that would have been 1933 I believe.

BRINSON: Okay, during the Depression.

WILLIAMS: Uh huh, right in the middle.

BRINSON: Approximately how many people were in your graduating class?

WILLIAMS: There were about twenty.

BRINSON: And I’m assuming that all of these were white children?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BRINSON: Okay. Was there a black school in town, in your area that you were aware of?

WILLIAMS: I’m not sure, now I don’t remember.

BRINSON: When you finished high school, Mr. Williams, what did you do next?

WILLIAMS: I didn’t have the money to go to college, so I went to work, after a short interval, for Swift and Company, in their poultry department, feeding and cleaning up after chickens, at seventeen and half cents an hour. And Mr. Roosevelt went into office, and I’ve forgotten what the program was, but the pay went up to thirty-two and a half cents an hour. I thought I was rich. And anyway, that...

BRINSON: Was that job in the town that you grew up in?

WILLIAMS: That was in South Fulton, Tennessee. In the town, see I didn’t grow up in the town. It was about two miles from town where we lived on the farm. And then the next Fall, I worked through that year, and the next school year, I went to University of Tennessee at Martin. And then while I was there, I had a lady who was a cousin, who had a Business College, and I learned to type and take shorthand from her. And then, let’s see, I finished two years at the University of Tennessee at Martin. And then entered Vanderbilt Law School, at that time, only two years of academic college was required for Law school.

BRINSON: Had that always been the case, or was that because of the Depression?

WILLIAMS: No, no. I think it was always the case up until that time, and a few years after that, that it was raised to four years academic school before Law school. Anyway I went to Vanderbilt and I didn’t know how I was going to do it, but I managed to do it. I worked, I had a full time law course and I had two jobs. And I got through Law school.

BRINSON: What were your two jobs?

WILLIAMS: My what?

BRINSON: What were your two jobs?

WILLIAMS: One was, I was secretary to the Head of the Romance Language department. And I typed Greek and German and a lot of different foreign languages and didn’t know, of course, what I was typing, so my typing speed gained a lot. I was able to increase typing speed to a hundred and twenty-five words a minute, which was real good.

BRINSON: So that earlier education in typing and shorthand came in very helpful.

WILLIAMS: It put me through Law school. The other job was of the same type. And put me through Law School. And then I first got a Tennessee Law license and practiced law one year in South Fulton. And after that year, I was in court one day and a lawyer from Union City that I knew called me and wanted me to join the National Guard. He was Commander and he was a captain, commanding a company in the National Guard that was being activated by the United States. And I decided, I was single, no trappings, so I decided I was an excellent candidate for the Draft. They hadn’t started the Draft, but it was in the process, and I knew it was going to be enacted. Anyway, I knew that I was going to be drafted, so I decided I would go ahead and get it over with. At that time, you could go in for one year and be out. And I could get it over with and go back to practicing law. So anyhow, I went in with him. And during that period of time, that year, I went from a private. When I went in, I knew absolutely nothing about the Army, I didn’t know a Private from a General, I couldn’t have told you. And anyway, I wound up being a pretty good soldier, because I went from Private to Lieutenant, a Second Lieutenant. And then, after that I was--well anyway, when I went in the National Guard, his company, it was activated and sent to Fort Jackson, South Carolina, out of Columbia, South Carolina. I was there two years, at Fort Jackson. While at Fort Jackson I was promoted to Second, from Private to Technician and then to Second Lieutenant. Then at the end of about, well I went in, everything happened in September. I went in, in September forty, let’s see, no....yes, I think September. Anyway I went in, in September and went in the Army and went to Fort Jackson that September and was there two years. And after two years, in September, I went overseas to the South West Pacific with the Thirtieth Division. While overseas the Thirtieth Division was in the, what they called the Buna Gona Campaign in New Guinea. Was overseas then two years, during that time, I went from Second Lieutenant to Captain. And the climate in New Guinea was such that we had a lot of, what they called, fever of undetermined origin. And I contracted it and the doctors thought, well they didn’t think I was going to live, but I did. Anyway I was discharged from the Army and I came back. I decided I didn’t want to go back to practicing law in Fulton. And I had a cousin in Paducah, who called me and wanted me to come up and meet a lawyer in Paducah. I did and talked to the lawyer and decided to go to work for him, and I did.

BRINSON: Who was that lawyer?

WILLIAMS: Tom Waller

BRINSON: Can you spell his last name?

WILLIAMS: W A L L E R. Waller. He was quite a raconteur and an excellent trial lawyer. I learned a lot about trial practice under him. I practiced with him for one year and then decided to get out on my own, went to practicing on my own. Practice on my own then, well I had several partners and associates and so forth through the years. I had a prac--after Law school, I did some more studying and got what they call a Juris Doctor’s Degree, same as a Ph.D., Doctor of Philosophy. Anyway after that, well I practiced with various other lawyers and had my own firm and retired, I guess, four years ago.

BRINSON: How did you begin to get interested in public office?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think every young lawyer is interested in it, or should be. While I was practicing on my own, when I left Mr. Waller. I left him, that would have been, started with him in forty-five and that would have been forty-six that I started on my own. And then the later part of forty-six, I guess it was, I’m not real sure about these exact years now. But while I was in that forty-six, the later part of forty-six, I had become acquainted with some of the commissioners, city commissioners. And they had, had a new election and the city commissioners were upset with the city manager. And they had hired a replacement, a new city manager. Well, shortly, they told the incumbent city manager that he was going to be replaced, not when the meeting happened. But meaning to replace him, when the new commissioner would get loose from his assignment, and it would be several months. Well, the city manager just walked out, got his hat and quit that night. That left them without a city manager, and I had become acquainted with several of the, and helped with the elections of some of the commissioners. And they called me and wanted me to become acting city manager. And I did.

BRINSON: That would have been about when? What year?

WILLIAMS: Let’s see, that would have been about forty-seven, the middle, the later part of forty-seven. Anyway I was handling the job, apparently satisfactorily, as city manager. My military experience had been good for that. You’re not a Captain in the Army without having some executive experience, ability. Anyway, after that, well during that time, the city manager that the mayor and the commissioners had hired, decided he wasn’t going to come to Paducah. And didn’t come. So they were left without a new city manager, so they hired me. And I was city manager for I believe it was fifteen months before I got sick of it and decided I didn’t want to be city manager anymore. I told my wife at that time, I said, “We are going to make up our minds whether we are going to be city managers or lawyers. If we are going to be lawyers, well I’m going to quit this city manager job. If we are going to be city managers, I’m going on.” Because I had been offered, they had just adopted the city manager form of government in Paris, or Clarksville, Tennessee. I’ve forgotten which one. But they offered me, they came up and interviewed me, the commissioners did. And they offered me to be city manager of one of those towns at fifteen thousand dollars a year. And in Kentucky at the time I was city manager, the highest salary that any official other than the Governor of Kentucky was fifteen thousand a year, oh, five thousand a year. I’m sorry. And five thousand a year just wasn’t making it. So they were going, we talked about it, and decided if we were going to continue as city manager, we were going to take the job in Tennessee. But we decided that we would go back to practicing law, because it’s more, you have many clients, and they don’t all quit you at once.

BRINSON: Let me back you up a minute. Tell me how you met your wife.

WILLIAMS: Let’s see, I don’t remember that.

BRINSON: Or when you met her, or...

WILLIAMS: That would have been, we married in, I guess in, let’s see when were we married.

BRINSON: When you came back from your service?

WILLIAMS: Well no, it was a little before that. I met her about, little before I went into the service.

BRINSON: And tell me her name.

WILLIAMS: Her name was Hazel Prewitt, P R E W I T T. We had a daughter born, let’s see fifteen months after I was overseas. I saw her when she was fifteen months old. But anyway...

BRINSON: Did you have any other children?

WILLIAMS: No, one child. Her name is ( ), has her Ph.D. now and is a clinical psychologist on Orcas Island off the coast of Seattle, Washington.

BRINSON: What’s the name of the island?

WILLIAMS: Orcas, O R C A S, Island. She practices as a clinical psychologist.

BRINSON: So you and your wife made the decision that you were going to practice law and not be a city manager. And then did you open up a practice by yourself?

WILLIAMS: I went back to practicing law by myself in Paducah, and was fairly successful.

BRINSON: What kind of law did you practice?

WILLIAMS: Well, I started out, any kind. I was a lawyer and I didn’t have a client. I took anybody that came in the door. At first I practiced law until I decided I didn’t want to practice criminal law, didn’t want to get involved with crime. Primarily because I was disenchanted with the individuals who were accused of crime, crimes. Most of them, I couldn’t rely on what they said. And I just decided I didn’t want to practice criminal law and quit taking them, quit practicing criminal law. Then, I don’t remember exactly when, I also found that handling divorce law, was a most unsatisfactory type of practice. Because it didn’t make any difference whether you were representing the man or the woman, irregardless of the outcome of the case, the client was mad at you. And you had no satisfied client, so I quit that. Then I represented people in automobile accidents, a little bit of corporate law. I didn’t particularly like corporate law, but I did like trial practice, and represented some insurance companies, defended them. Primarily I became associated with American trial lawyers, and was president, later on was president of Kentucky Trial Lawyers Association. And then became, I was a member of the International Academy of Trial Lawyers, and then the International Society of Barristers.

BRINSON: And at what point did you think about becoming a city commissioner?

WILLIAMS: I didn’t think about it. I never was a city commissioner. I was the city manager, of a different sort. There’s a mayor, there’s a mayor and four commissioners.

BRINSON: Right.

WILLIAMS: And they’re the legislative body of the city. The mayor is the executive officer, but the city manager is an executive officer too.

BRINSON: Well, then I have some misinformation, I thought you had also been on the city commission at some point.

WILLIAMS: No, I was not. I was not on the city commission. I was the city manager. I had helped some of the city commissioners get re-elected.

BRINSON: Okay. Well that’s good background. Now, I want to ask you some questions about race relations. At what point in your growing up, were you aware that this was a segregated society for blacks and whites?

WILLIAMS: Well I guess from the time I knew anything, I knew it was a segregated society. So far as my family was concerned, we had a tenant house, that helped out on the farm, a man and woman, who were black. And we loved them as a member of the family. I don’t think we treated them as blacks, like many people did. We were very fond of them. They were different people and were treated different. We didn’t go to church together. We didn’t go to school together. They weren’t in schools. There was a black school in Fulton or South Fulton, South Fulton, I believe, at that time.

BRINSON: And so of course, for you, during the time you were at Vanderbilt, that would have been a segregated school, as well.

WILLIAMS: I don’t know that it was segregated, in the sense that, a black couldn’t have gone to Law school at Vanderbilt. I suspect he could, they just didn’t.

BRINSON: Didn’t, right.

WILLIAMS: I don’t know why, maybe they weren’t qualified, I guess.

BRINSON: Because Vanderbilt was a private school. The public schools, many of them had laws specifically that prohibited blacks from....

WILLIAMS: That may have been so, I don’t know.

BRINSON: You’re right, the private schools. At the time that you moved to Paducah, do you have any sense about what race relations were like in the community? In the forties?

WILLIAMS: I didn’t have any idea that it was any different from what they were in Fulton.

BRINSON: Did you have any reason to come in contact with any members of the black community? Like, did you have a barber, who might have been black, or a shoe shine boy?

WILLIAMS: Maybe, maybe, well I just told you about the couple that lived on the farm.

BRINSON: Right. But I’m talking now about when you came to Paducah.

WILLIAMS: Oh, when I came to Paducah.....

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

BRINSON: We were talking about when you came to Paducah.

WILLIAMS: Right, I don’t remember. It wasn’t enough of a thing for me to etch anything on my memory. May have had a shoe shine man, or may have been a barber. I never was, I think I never did treat anybody as bad, simply because they were black, never thought about that.

BRINSON: Did you and your wife ever employ black domestic workers?

[Tape goes off and on]

BRINSON: Did you and your wife ever employ any blacks as domestic workers?

WILLIAMS: I’m sure we did, uh hmm.

BRINSON: Or yard workers?

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

BRINSON: And do you have any recollection of any of them in any way?

WILLIAMS: Not really. I know we did have some. At that time, they were much easier to employ than they are now. I mean for household work. They, in any event--well, let’s see--when my first wife and I were divorced, then in sixty-three I remarried, a woman from Mayfield, my present wife.

BRINSON: Do you have any children from this marriage?

WILLIAMS: No, no children. She had two from a previous marriage, I had the one.

BRINSON: Your daughter, did she go to public school in this community?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BRINSON: She did, okay.

WILLIAMS: She graduated from Tillman High School.

BRINSON: Tillman, okay. Do you remember, I’m sure you do, as a lawyer, when the nineteen fifty-four Brown Decision came down to integrate the school system. Would your daughter, probably would have been in school at that point. Do you have any recollection of what the community opinion was about all that? What happened here in Paducah with school integration?

WILLIAMS: Well I think many of the white people were not for it. One of the problems, and I don’t know, I suppose it was from the fact from the early days of slavery, blacks had not been given the opportunity to educate themselves and so forth. But, one of the problems was, at the time I was practicing law later on there, that you, there wasn’t anybody, wasn’t any blacks qualified to be lawyers and things of that kind. Some of them taught school for black children and my guess is, were better teachers than some of the white teachers. Because the blacks have always felt, had an empathy that we white people do not have, towards each other, and well, toward black people. They are easier to love and they reciprocate, I think better than we do sometimes.

BRINSON: Do you remember, were there any problems in integrating the schools here? For example...

WILLIAMS: No, we had no settlement problems or anything of that kind.

BRINSON: Or you didn’t have Sturgis, up the road.

WILLIAMS: Right.

BRINSON: Which I believe it was the Paducah National Guard that got called out to go to Sturgis.

WILLIAMS: Called out, probably. Well, I wasn’t in the National Guard, so that was no problem for me. They uh, let’s see, I was trying to think. I remember some of the people went to Selma, when they had the problem down there.

BRINSON: They went down to march in the...?

WILLIAMS: Some of the people from Paducah did. And I know that I was asked to go, but I’ve forgotten, there was some reason I couldn’t or didn’t want to or something. I’m not sure which.

BRINSON: The president of the NAACP at that point was a man named Mr. Curley Brown. I think he went down. Did you ever have any contact with him that you remember?

WILLIAMS: No, I remember that he was, well, I remember that he was in the forefront of trying to improve the situation as far as blacks were concerned. I don’t remember having any contact with him personally or professionally.

BRINSON: I wonder, do you have any idea how big the black population was here back in the fifties and the sixties? Sort of like, was it close to twenty percent of the population or was it smaller than that?

WILLIAMS: I would say at least twenty percent, maybe a little more.

BRINSON: How were juries made up in those days?

WILLIAMS: Well, early on when I started practicing they were all white. And that hasn’t, let’s see, I don’t know, you could probably get better records from that in Frankfort, about when, I don’t know, I don’t know that, what Kentucky law said they couldn’t be on juries, they just weren’t. And that, they weren’t on juries until, I guess, maybe ten years ago. It may have been longer than that, but I don’t recall. I know most of the time, when I was practicing, representing people that had been hurt in automobile accidents or things of that kind, if I had a black client that had been hurt, I was hoping that there would be black people on the jury, but there weren’t. Most of the time when I was practicing, I don’t remember ever selecting a jury from a partially black panel.

BRINSON: Has the black leadership never protested that in any way? I would think that they would want to.

WILLIAMS: I don’t recall that they have, but anyway, they are now. Several times, taken as a matter of course. And I’m sure that sometimes, percentage wise, there was a higher percentage on juries than there are percentage of blacks. I don’t think there is any effort to exclude them.

BRINSON: I want to ask you about the names of some people and see if you just know them, and what you can tell me about them. There was a Timothy Taylor, here in Paducah, who in nineteen sixty-two, sixty-three was appointed by the Governor to the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights. I have no other information about him.

WILLIAMS: Tim Taylor was, I believe, a minister.

BRINSON: Okay.

WILLIAMS: Wasn’t he, I mean?

BRINSON: I don’t know.

WILLIAMS: Oh, you don’t know? I believe he was a minister.

BRINSON: Is he still living?

WILLIAMS: That I don’t know. If he is, he’s making no ripples of that kind, and hasn’t for a number of years.

BRINSON: And he was a white minister?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BRINSON: Do you know what denomination he was?

WILLIAMS: I believe, I believe maybe Episcopalian, maybe. I’m not sure that, that’s right, but I think so.

BRINSON: There’s a gentleman here by the name of Reverend Wardelle Harvey Senior?

WILLIAMS: Reverend Harvey, Reverend Harvey’s real active now.

BRINSON: Harvey? H A R V

WILLIAMS: Harvey, H A R V E Y, is active now politically. He’s, I guess, one of the leaders of the black community, if not the leader.

BRINSON: Now, were you appointed by the Governor to the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights?

WILLIAMS: I believe so. I was on it for a while.

BRINSON: From nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty-two.

WILLIAMS: Maybe that’s right, your records are better than my memory.

BRINSON: Do you remember any meetings or going to Frankfort for any meetings of that group?

WILLIAMS: I have a vague recollection of going to Frankfort for some things, yes.

BRINSON: Do you remember what any of the issues were that you were working on during that time with the Commission?

WILLIAMS: I’m afraid I don’t.

BRINSON: Did you go out into the community as part of their team that handled complaints, discrimination complaints, at all?

WILLIAMS: I don’t believe I was ever called.

BRINSON: At that point the Chair of the State Commission on Human Rights, was a gentleman named Reverend Robert Estill, E S T I L L. And he was an Episcopal priest from Lexington. Does that name mean anything to you?

WILLIAMS: I’m afraid not.

BRINSON: Okay. And then the Executive Director of the State Commission on Human Rights then was a gentleman named Galen Martin.

WILLIAMS: Hmm, I have a vague, I recognize that name. I’ve forgotten, I’d have to do some thinking to think about what he...

BRINSON: He eventually went to Law school part time and worked this job. He actually stayed as the Executive Director for many, many, many years. There was a woman on the Commission from Louisville named Fannie Rosenbaum, from the Jewish community. Does that name mean anything to you?

WILLIAMS: I recognize the name. I couldn’t tell you anything that she did. I remember that she was active with race problems.

BRINSON: Now, I believe you were in the State Legislature, in nineteen fifty-eight? Is that correct?

WILLIAMS: Right.

BRINSON: Can you tell me about that?

WILLIAMS: Well, my main memory about that is, I ran on a ticket to anti Governor Chandler and was elected. Our county didn’t think much of Mr. Chandler. And I got to the legislature.

BRINSON: And you ran on the Democratic ticket?

WILLIAMS: Oh yes.

BRINSON: Okay.

WILLIAMS: In Paducah, in McCracken county, you don’t get anywhere in politics if you are not a Democrat. I mean, you don’t have a chance to vote for Sheriff or county officers, tax assessor or anything, if you’re not a Democrat. Because whoever is a Democrat is elected. So you got to be registered a Democrat to be able to vote for those offices in our area. And it is largely still that way. There’s still a growing number of Republicans and one day, I guess they’ll....I don’t think much of having to register as a Democrat or a Republican. I don’t think much of that idea. I think that’s taboo. I think if you want to vote, you ought to be able to vote, regardless in any election.

BRINSON: How long did you serve? And you were in the House or the Senate?

WILLIAMS: House of Representatives. Just one term.

BRINSON: One term. Two years?

WILLIAMS: Just two years?

BRINSON: Why didn’t you run again? Or did you?

WILLIAMS: Well, yes, I believe I did, and I believe I got beat.

BRINSON: Okay. (Laughing) Well you would have gotten beat in about nineteen sixty, which was about the time that the Governor appointed you to the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights.

WILLIAMS: You may be right. It may have been.

BRINSON: And that Governor was Governor Coombs.

WILLIAMS: Right.

BRINSON: Right.

WILLIAMS: Right. I had done some work for Coombs. And that was probably the reason why I was appointed.

BRINSON: What kind of work?

WILLIAMS: Oh just.

BRINSON: ( )

WILLIAMS: No. Campaign work.

BRINSON: Campaign work, okay.

WILLIAMS: And he was the leader against Chandler and I was opposed to Chandler as a legislator. And then the way the populace changes, in the two years I was in office, the people had become more Chandlerite and the man that opposed me was on Chandler’s side and he was elected.

BRINSON: You ran....

WILLIAMS: And besides, I decided I didn’t want to be in politics, hold offices, political offices. I wanted to devote all my time to the law practice. I wasn’t unhappy being defeated.

BRINSON: Do you, did you consider yourself, in that late fifty, early sixty period, to be pretty liberal? Your politics?

WILLIAMS: I guess. I don’t know, what, I mean I think the definition of liberal and conservative means different things to different people. If being conservative is being opposed to high taxation and opposed to more intrusion of government in our lives, and all that, then I’m conservative, because...

BRINSON: I didn’t ask that question very well. Let me rephrase it. I’m interested that you were appointed to the first Kentucky Commission on Human Rights by Governor Coombs, who was pretty progressive in his...

WILLIAMS: Yes he was.

BRINSON: ...about race relations in particular. And then you mentioned to me that had been invited by people locally to go to Selma to participate. What I’m getting at is, were you....?

WILLIAMS: I was a Liberal, I guess you would classify me as a Liberal, in so far as race relations were concerned.

BRINSON: Right, that’s what I’m asking about.

WILLIAMS: Politics generally, I guess I’m a Conservative.

BRINSON: Why do you think you were more of a Liberal around race relations at that point in time? That was pretty unusual.

WILLIAMS: Well, the thing was I never looked down my nose at a black client if he came in. I never opposed them going to church with me. I never opposed them going to our schools. I thought everybody should be treated equal. Now I don’t believe in the Affirmative Action, because I don’t think affirmative action ought to apply to whites or blacks, either one. I think when anybody applies for a job, whoever is doing the hiring ought to be able to hire the best person. And I don’t think black, what color they are, ought to have anything to do with it.

BRINSON: You mentioned going to church. What church did you grow up in? What denomination?

WILLIAMS: Well, that, my mother was a Baptist and my father was Cumberland Presbyterian, so I guess didn’t grow up in either church. I went to both of them. I don’t recall even joining one when I was a child. In fact, I grew up and married, I became a Methodist and have been since.

BRINSON: I wonder at the time that you were appointed to the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights, what did your family and your friends think about that?

WILLIAMS: I don’t recall there being any conflict or anybody looking down their nose at me, certainly didn’t lose any friends by being on the Commission. ( )

BRINSON I interviewed this morning a gentleman here by the name of Gladman Humbles.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BRINSON: Do you know him at all?

WILLIAMS: Well, we are acquainted, but I don’t, haven’t really had much contact. Incidentally I have admired his intellect. I think he is a right bright fellow.

BRINSON: Some of the stories that he’s written for the paper, he shared...

WILLIAMS: Yeah, he’s written some good letters to the editor.

BRINSON: And he tells me he is writing a book now...

WILLIAMS: Is he?

BRINSON: ...about his mother.

WILLIAMS: About who?

BRINSON: His mother.

WILLIAMS: Oh is that right?

BRINSON: Yeah. But he told me he thought I’d like you.

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah?

BRINSON: Yeah, he asked me who else I was going to be talking to here.

WILLIAMS: I’ve admired his intellect.

BRINSON: Is there anything else, that I haven’t asked you, Mr. Williams, about the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights or about race relations in Paducah or in Kentucky even, that...

WILLIAMS: Frankly, I have not, being out of politics in the sense of not seeking office....I am a registered Democrat, who votes Republican when I want to....I like being a Republican better than a Democrat. In Kentucky, so far as race is concerned, I know that there are some counties in Kentucky that are still very much anti-black, that don’t take kindly to the blacks. But I’ve always thought that Paducah has been very receptive to the change, the improvement in establishing civil rights. I don’t know whether, I’m sure as far as Gladman is concerned, not quite enough receptive (Laughing), but he is pushing it and it is better than it used to be. I think he’d have to admit that.

BRINSON: He says that too. Okay, well thank you very much for talking to me.

END OF INTERVIEW