Oral History Interview with John Cranston

BETSY BRINSON: This is an interview with John W. Cranston. The interviewer is Betsy Brinson, and it takes place in the Patton Museum in Fort Knox Kentucky. Thank you, John, for being willing to talk with me today. Tell me first—give me your full name and birthplace and birth date.

JOHN CRANSTON: Well, let’s see. John Welch Cranston and I was born in Utica, New York on December 21, 1931, because there was no hospital in Hamilton and my father was a college professor at Colgate.

BRINSON: Okay. And Welch is W-E-L . . .

CRANSTON: W-E-L-C-H.

BRINSON: Okay.

CRANSTON: Named for my mother’s side of the family.

BRINSON: Well, thank you for agreeing to meet with me today, uh, to talk a little bit about Margaret Collier, and the integration of troops here at Fort Knox in the, the military. Um, it’s nice to talk to you because you certainly are a very credentialed historian. Uh, I note from your materials that you have your Ph.D. in History from the University of Wisconsin. You also did some graduate work at Columbia University. Uh, what brought you to Fort Knox and how long have you been here?

CRANSTON: Uh, well, first of all, I retired from Fort Knox in 1995, on July 14th. I got there in December 1983. Uh, I had taught in a predominantly black college in Mississippi, uh, thirty miles north of University of Mississippi ,and thirty miles south of Elvis Presley country in Memphis.

BRINSON: And which college was that?

CRANSTON: Uh, Rust, R-U-S-T. It’s predominantly black, named, like Fisk, for a reconstruction figure . . . in 1866; I think they were both founded in the same year. And the truth was that they had a ( ) who was then General William R. Richardson, had decided if we had more civilian historians we would not have Vietnams; and so each ( ) post—I’ve forgotten how many we have, seventeen or something like that—each one got a civilian historian. A lot of them happen to be like me, German historians, and this disproportionate number came out of mid-western universities.

BRINSON: So you came here as the—what was your official title?

CRANSTON: Fort Armory Center Historian.

BRINSON: Historian, okay. And what were your responsibilities?

CRANSTON: Oh, write the command history every year. And then I also put columns in the newspaper, The Turret; and interviewed a number of people, kept a number of the documents that came into circulation and, uh, served briefly with an NCO instructor in the Officers Club.

BRINSON: Okay. And I believe you yourself actually spent a few years in 1952-3 in the military?

CRANSTON: Yes, I, I, uh, went with basic training at Fort Ord; that would have been September 21st, 1953. Uh, and then went over to Germany, I guess, in March fifty-four, and got out of the army in August fifty-five, and as of . . .

BRINSON: Where were you in Germany?

CRANSTON: I was there from March . . .

BRINSON: No, where?

CRANSTON: Augsburg from March until, March fifty-four till February of fifty-five; and then in Schweinfurt and Wurtsberg from March fifty-five till I got out in July.

BRINSON: The reason I asked you that is I actually, uh, my—I come from a long generation of military and my father was stationed in Heidelberg during those same years, so I was living there also.

CRANSTON: As of August 8th I’m going back again and—my Delta Frequent Flyer came through.

BRINSON: Well, good for you.

CRANSTON: Augsburg I will see again. All the other places are in East Germany, including Berlin, and those will be new to me. Then I get back here about August 21st.

BRINSON: Okay. How did you come to be involved in telling the story of Margaret Collier?

CRANSTON: I think somebody just suggested here at Fort Knox we should interview her, and, uh, I speak for the person who suggested it is still around. And I think that was Shelby Roberts, who was the Assistant G3; and John Purdy would have his phone number, because he’s now head of, essentially, Post Security. And he was, uh, he would have been Deputy G3. And I think he suggested it and, as John Purdy will confirm. He served with her on the Cavalry Armor Foundation and knew her. And I think it was his suggestion, and so we interviewed her—she, by the way, never approved the interview.

BRINSON: She saw it and disapproved of it?

CRANSTON: She saw it. She never approved of any of it. The truth was that she wanted very much to, uh, write up what she did and be compensated for it. The Center of Military History was always interested but no money, and so there it sat. So what you’re dealing with is essentially an unapproved interview, and it’s all that we have on her.

BRINSON: I looked very, uh, very quickly through some of the boxes of archives here and note that she herself attempted several drafts of a . . .

CRANSTON: She did.

BRINSON: . . . autobiography.

CRANSTON: She worked with Phyllis Cassler who had Candice’s job there. And, uh, the issue of money came up, and Phyllis did everything she could; and, as John Purdy will confirm, they were not successful in getting the thing. So there apparently is a good deal that she wrote and just left to the Museum.

BRINSON: I’m, uh, interested in why she thought she needed the money when she herself had lived, uh, frugally; but I understand that she, uh, had--she gave scholarships to young people to attend college.

CRANSTON: I didn’t know much about that.

BRINSON: And I wonder if maybe part of her interest in having the money come in would be to help her to continue to do that work.

CRANSTON: It could very well have been. I, I could not answer that question. I didn’t know her particular financial situation. I gather that, like many military people, she felt she had to watch the money.

BRINSON: Uh-huh.

CRANSTON: And I’m not sure how well she was physically at the end.

BRINSON: She was about what age when you interviewed her?

CRANSTON: I really don’t know. By then she would have retired. Uh, when one does retire in that position, maybe sixty-five. Uh, I would have said she was older than sixty-five; it may be in the interview she says something . . .

BRINSON: It may be but . . .

CRANSTON: Uh.

BRINSON: . . . you interviewed her in 1986.

CRANSTON: 1986, I . . .

BRINSON: That’s okay, I can . . .

CRANSTON: Yeah, I, I would say she was almost certainly above the age of sixty-five, and she would have been retired by then. I think she was living in Bowling Green.

BRINSON: Okay. Uh, what can you recall about her, just her physical appearance? Did you know her or have interaction with her at any other time besides this interview?

CRANSTON: No . . . knew really much less about her than would either Shelby Roberts or John Purdy.

BRINSON: Okay.

CRANSTON: And I think probably I was able to communicate with her because I had taught in a predominantly black institution.

BRINSON: Okay.

CRANSTON: But that was, quite truthfully, it.

BRINSON: Okay. Tell me about her physical appearance.

CRANSTON: She seemed in good physical shape.

BRINSON: Thin or tall or . . .?

CRANSTON: I would have said she was less than six feet tall, probably about a medium build. I think at that time she could drive a car back and forth here from Bowling Green. I think she was in pretty good shape.

BRINSON: Okay.

CRANSTON: She had no trouble seeing where she was going or hearing what she was doing.

BRINSON: Okay. And you graciously provided me a copy of the interview and the transcript. Uh, how did you see that as an interview with her? Was she quite open in answering your questions?

CRANSTON: Well, she was, uh, forthright in, in what she had to say. I don’t—I think she was rather modest about her role here; uh, and I think she took great delight particularly in explaining what she did, uh, when life around here must have been kind of difficult. Uh, I have not—I grew up in California. Wisconsin is a very different ballgame from here. I think there must have been racial segregation in Louisville in the fifties; my understanding was there was separate schools. I think she had a hard fight on her hands. I also think she got a lot of support, even before Civil Rights, from the general officers in charge.

BRINSON: Mr. Purdy and I were, were talking earlier--and off-tape, actually--about, conjecture as much as anything, about why she never married. Uh . . .

CRANSTON: I think she was just devoted to Fort Knox and what she was doing. And, uh, um, I think also, uh, at that time, how many eligible black officers—and I think it would have been an officer—would have been on hand? When I was in the army, fifty-three to fifty-five, at Fort Ord, you began to see black lieutenants and captains. When I got out, you began to see black majors. But in that environment you were not seeing lieutenant colonels or colonels, and this would be the kind of person that she would have worked with. But they weren’t on hand in that difficult period.

BRINSON: Okay. Uh, in addition to Margaret Collier—I’m going to move from that—but as the historian here, what can you tell me about the integration of blacks into the military here at Fort Knox?

CRANSTON: Well, I got here in eighty-three, and by that time I think integration had been fully accomplished on Post; I think, in part, because of what she had done. We also have had our first African-American Commanding General, General Jordan who left here—I have forgotten—I guess fours ago, 1996. And I think partly because of where we are located, integration has gone well. I notice where I live in Radcliff you have African Americans living right next door to whites. I think probably, although he may not have intended it, much of that began under Richard Nixon who gave NCOs enough money so that they could go buy houses off-Post. That led to the growth of Radcliff, and integration more or less came about just because it didn’t matter whether you were an African American or white. You had enough money to buy a house and, uh, Radcliff moved along . . .

BRINSON: Was Radcliff there before that period?

CRANSTON: I don’t think there’s much there. If you look around Radcliff—I know my house was built in 1977, and then they built around it since then. I moved into it in 1985, and, uh, let’s see, what have we got . . . Richard Nixon is out of office in August of 1974. It is under that period that Radcliff, I’m sure, began to develop. If you look around at the houses, they look as if they were built during the Nixon . . .

BRINSON: Is Radcliff a pretty multi-racial neighborhood?

CRANSTON: I, I, think they’re pretty much multi-racial, and it would look to me as if a lot of the houses went up in late sixties, early seventies. Credit Richard Nixon with a good deal of that.

BRINSON: Are the neighborhoods actually integrated within Radcliff?

CRANSTON: I would say the neighborhoods are very well integrated as are the schools, and I, I think that maybe Richard Nixon hadn’t intended that. I know I was teaching at Rust College, and under him Federal money went up rather than down.

BRINSON: Okay. I wonder, though, as the Base historian, um, if you have any recollection of, uh, what transpired here in the forties?

CRANSTON: I, I really would not have much of any idea. I’ve noted down there a couple of books that might say a few things. Stephen Ambrose wrote a book called Soldiers; and I’ve forgotten if he said anything about that. I know he goes after the army method of replacement, says we didn’t do as well as the Germans did.

BRINSON: He wouldn’t have talked specifically about Fort Knox.

CRANSTON: I—no, he would not have. And then I put down Charles McDonald who, I think, says quite a lot, but I tread there carefully because I’ve forgotten. He says quite a lot, as I recollect, about how African Americans were used in the Battle of the Bulge.

BRINSON: Okay.

CRANSTON: And since they used tanks and Fort Knox was training people with tanks, it would have been involved. But, except for the exhibit which I notice shows that the officer level that they were training African Americans along with whites, I wouldn’t be able to say much more than that. With basic training, I suspect you had black companies with white officers, but I’m not sure. And then you had integrated companies. And I can remember when I was overseas in February of fifty-five, fifty-four, it was a tendency in Augsburg to have the integration take place in your heavy weapons companies first. That’s because I was in Company H, and they were gradually integrating the rifle companies; but Company H and Company D and whatever it was beyond that--L, M, probably M--that was where integration came first.

BRINSON: The experience, as I understand it, here at Fort Knox, from the Museum exhibit, though, is that, uh, the African American soldiers who were trained here were initially trained separately, and then they were trained in an integrated fashion. But when they were assigned to duty after their training—in the early years at least—they were assigned to segregated units. Is that correct?

CRANSTON: That could have been. I don’t know the story. I do know that we have listed there--what is it--the 761st tank battalion from World War II. Next to it I think is the 751st , and then there’s another. And those were segregated, according to the exhibit there and according to the film, Liberators, which got into so much trouble. But that’s an example . . .

BRINSON: Tell, tell me about that film.

CRANSTON: Uh . . .

BRINSON: How does that connect to Fort Knox?

CRANSTON: Well, I don’t think it connects too much except that it would depend on where the unit trained. And the book is over in, uh, the Barr Library, and almost certainly it would be—you wouldn’t have any trouble finding it at the UK library.

BRINSON: What’s the story, that . . .?

CRANSTON: Well, the thing that got it into trouble was that there were no historians involved officially in the film, and, uh, they had the—I think it is 761st—uh, liberating concentration camps that they didn’t liberate. And that made the units mad that had liberated, which were not black tank battalions. So they sent back for cause. There has been a book written about the 761st since that time; I saw it in the Barr Library and just skimmed it. And The New York Times did contact—at least, they phoned me; I don’t know whether from New York or from here. They were trying to find some nice things to say as well.

BRINSON: What can you tell me about the black battalions that . . . and the concentration camps?

CRANSTON: Well, nothing more than the exhibit here, except that the book--which is available--the book--the tome Liberators indicates what was there. I do not think—someone told me, and I have not read it that closely, that they credit themselves with liberating Auschwitz. I doubt that because I think the Soviets got there at that end before we did. I think Buchenwald is the unit that was involved, but I’d have to go back and look very carefully. And they did not liberate Buchenwald, and apparently the title of the book was misleading. And what had happened was that the people who wrote it went, “Well we think such-and-such happened there. ‘ And they didn’t look at the documents. This is a little like at Fort Knox periodically. The theory is General Rommell came to Fort Knox. Somebody will say that to somebody else and every new general here gets excited. We’ve never found documentation to prove that any of these people ever came. This is the fault of oral history and, and it led that particular film into all sorts of trouble.

BRINSON: Did the black battalions liberate any of the camps, that you’re aware of?

CRANSTON: That, I’d have to refer somebody to the books themselves. Uh, I’ve not gotten that involved in it. I think everyone kind of shied off as a hot potato the whole issue from that. Fort Knox played a minor play in finding out the problems with the book.

BRINSON: Where else, uh, during the war were black troops trained?

CRANSTON: I really don’t know. I suppose all over the country in basic training installations, uh . . .

BRINSON: So Fort Knox wasn’t especially unique in . . .?

CRANSTON: No, it would not have been. Uh, I would suspect since there were fewer blacks outside the South that there may have been more places in the South than in other parts of the country. And then by the time the Korean War began, you were able—you had migrations all over the country and a more even spread.

BRINSON: Okay. Have you had any other involvement or done any other research on this topic?

CRANSTON: Not really. No, my—I . . .

BRINSON: This is not your--what is your, your pet area of history?

CRANSTON: Since it was German history—I’m going back this summer—and the other thing is, there are—I want to write on university architecture in three particular places. One is Dartmouth, one is Pomona where I went, the other is Carleton in Minnesota which I am familiar with. And that’s a kind of a different field.

BRINSON: And so today you’ve retired as historian here at Fort Knox?

CRANSTON: I am no longer—I have not been employed by Fort Knox since the middle of July 1995.

BRINSON: Okay. But you’re teaching at the Elizabeth . . .

CRANSTON: At Elizabethtown Community College, and then I also work as Test Examiner.

BRINSON: Okay. All right. Is there anything else you’d like to add to . . .?

CRANSTON: No, I would simply hold up again--as I mentioned, don’t fall into the Liberators trap.

BRINSON: Well, thank you very much, Dr. Cranston for talking with me today. [interruption]

CRANSTON: . . .yes, uh, they have a very fine German historian there. Conrad ( ) teaches there who succeeded a man named Snell who died of a tragic illness. And ( ) finished at Wisconsin, and I suppose he’ll be at North Carolina the rest of his life because it’s such a nice place.

BRINSON: Right. Thank you very much, Dr. Cranston.

END OF INTERVIEW