Oral History Interview with Ricardo Sisney

BETSY BRINSON: Today is June fifth, the year two thousand, this is an interview with Ricardo Sisney, am I saying that correctly?

RICARDO SISNEY: That is correct.

BRINSON: The interviewer is Betsy Brinson, and it takes place in Mr. Sisney’s hometown of Bowling Green, Kentucky. Thank you for being willing to talk with me today.

SISNEY: You are more than welcome.

BRINSON: Could we begin by you giving me your full name, your birth date and your birth place, please?

SISNEY: My name is Ricardo Sisney. I was born in Henderson, Kentucky, February eighteen, nineteen thirty-nine.

BRINSON: Okay. Should I call you Mr. Sisney or...?

SISNEY: Rick, everybody calls me Rick.

BRINSON: Rick, okay, thanks. I think I talked to you on the phone a little bit about the purpose of the project that we are doing, which is to document through oral histories, the whole effort to eliminate legal segregation...

SISNEY: Yes.

BRINSON: ...in Kentucky from nineteen thirty to nineteen seventy-five. I want to start though, by going back and having you just tell me a little bit about your growing up in Henderson, your family, your education. What was life like then?

SISNEY: Well, I grew up in Henderson County, the city being Henderson. I went to High School at Henderson Douglas, from, I graduated in nineteen fifty-seven. And of course the schools were segregated then. My memory of that time was receiving hand me downs, so to speak, from the other school, the quote, unquote, white school that was in Henderson at the time. And we were in the band, the band members, of course we had no uniforms. And we received uniforms from Henderson High School. And we were glad to get them.

BRINSON: And they were used uniforms?

SISNEY: They were used uniforms, you know, they were passed down from the main high school, which was Henderson High School; Henderson City School to us. We were very privileged to get them. Also, this was the way we received our textbooks.

BRINSON: Tell me about the musical instruments. What did you play?

SISNEY: I played the saxophone and clarinet in the band.

BRINSON: And where did the instruments come from?

SISNEY: Well, I was fortunate enough--well my parents were fortunate enough to purchase my instruments from the music store.

BRINSON: Do you know if at the white school, were the instruments provided by the school or by the families of children?

SISNEY: I’m not sure, but I’m under the assumption that they were provided by the school system.

BRINSON: Okay.

SISNEY: For those who didn’t have instruments of their own.

BRINSON: Let me take you back to your early years. Where did you attend elementary school?

SISNEY: I attended a segregated elementary school, by the name of Alvis Street Elementary School.

BRINSON: And do you remember any of your teachers?

SISNEY: I remember every one of my teachers, from the first grade, all the way through elementary school and through high school.

BRINSON: Why do you think you have such a good memory of all of that?

SISNEY: Well because they were very impressionable. They were concerned about their students. And they were always in hopes that all of their students achieved and excelled and went on to college, those of them that were motivated. And of course, I was motivated enough to go (Laughing) ahead to college on a music scholarship.

BRINSON: Hmm. I want to get to that in a few minutes, but are there any teachers in particular that you can describe to me? That really stand out for you.

SISNEY: Yes, there were, there were two of my elementary school teachers that really stood out. And there was my third grade teacher, Mrs. Florence Gardener, and my sixth grade teacher, Miss Annette C. Brown, who was the aunt of the famous actor, Roscoe Lee Brown. So those two stood out. They were very concerned that I achieved, because they were very familiar with my family, and they knew that this was really what my family wanted and expected. So they were very instrumental in my formative years.

BRINSON: Tell me about your family, or tell me about your parents, or what you know about your grandparents.

SISNEY: I was blessed to grow up with both parents, as well as, grandparents. I’m the only one, the only child in my family. And of course, my mother received an eleventh grade education, and my father, I think, received an eighth grade education. But he went on, and he was motivated enough to take correspondence courses. And he finished his high school through correspondence.

BRINSON: And where did they go to school?

SISNEY: Both of them attended the same school that I attended, Alvis Street. And of course, there was another school, an elementary school, eighth grade, I mean Eighth Street Elementary School, and that is where my father attended.

BRINSON: What do you know about your grandparents?

SISNEY: My grandfather on my mother’s side, received a third grade education and of course, he was motivated enough to learn on his own. And my grandmother, I don’t remember just how far her education went, but she was educated, you know, all of them were readers. They were, I guess, self-motivated and self-taught.

BRINSON: Now were they all from Kentucky?

SISNEY: Yes, all from Kentucky.

BRINSON: So your family has been here a good time.

SISNEY: My family has been here, yes.

BRINSON: Do you have any information about how far back in Kentucky, your family goes?

SISNEY: Only as far back as my great-grandparents, that’s as far back as I can go with them. And they are from, they were from Poole, Kentucky, which is in Webster County. That’s where my mother was born.

BRINSON: Poole? P O O ?

SISNEY: P O O L E, yes, yes. And of course, it was known as Poole Town then, but it’s actually Poole, Kentucky in Webster County. That’s where my mother’s family--that’s where they’re from. My father’s family is from Henderson.

BRINSON: While you were growing up, Rick, how did your family make their living?

SISNEY: Well, my mother did domestic work and then she also did factory work, she worked in the laundry. She worked as a cook on a local TV show. My father was a waiter in Evansville, Indiana, which is right across the bridge. He later became a head waiter, or a maître de, and that’s how they made their money.

BRINSON: What sort of, kind of factory did your mother work in?

SISNEY: Well, it wasn’t so much as a factory, well yes it was, I take that back. This was, I think, during the wartime. I think she worked in a factory in Terre Haute, Indiana, where they made, I think, uh, various appliances. And this was part of her experiences.

BRINSON: In growing up, were you and your family active in a church?

SISNEY: Yes, very active, very active. My mother was a member of the Greater Norris Chapel Baptist Church in Henderson, Kentucky; and my father was a member of Seventh Street Baptist Church. And I was a member of the Greater Norris Chapel Baptist Church. So, even though we attended separate churches, we were all of the same denomination, right.

BRINSON: At what point do you think you became aware that you lived in a segregated society?

SISNEY: (Laughs) Funny you would ask that, because I remember when we were teenagers, bunch of guys, we were on our bicycles; and there was a part of the town where we were not allowed to go. This was in the Audubon area of town. And we just decided one day that we would ride our bicycles out in that area of town, there was about five of us. So we (Laughing) got on our bikes and we rode our bikes out there. And there was a radio station out there, so we wanted to go by the radio station, and on the way back, we stopped at the little grocery store. It was in the summertime and we decided we were going to go in and get a soda. So, we went in and we were served--we were served a soda, which we were very surprised. (Laughing) And we noticed that there were two, older, white fellas to come in, you know. Of course, they were teenagers too, but they were much older than we were. So, while we were in there, enjoying our sodas, one said to us, “Hey guys.” Said, “See that dark cloud up there?” And of course, you know, we didn’t know exactly what he was talking about. But we looked up, you know, quite naturally we looked up, and nobody said anything; we just continued to drink our sodas. So he said, “Don’t you think it is about time for you all to be headed back across the border?” (Laughing) We still didn’t say anything, you know, but we got the message. So, we finished our sodas, got on our bicycles, we didn’t want to cause any problems, any trouble or anything. So, we took off on our bicycles. But there was one of our friends with us, and he had a smart mouth. So, while we were riding on--I guess we were about a block away from him--so he was the last one. He said something smart to the effect that, “Wasn’t it about time for your mother to get back across the border,” you know, in a smart aleck way. And he went to jump on his bicycle, jump on his bicycle seat, and when he did that, the chain came off. (Laughter) And I guess we were about two blocks down and we just happened to look back, and both of the guys were on him, you know. And they were kicking him, but it didn’t cause any serious damage or any serious harm or anything like that.

BRINSON: Did he get away or did you all go back and get him?

SISNEY: Yeah, they finally....No, we didn’t go back. [Laughing] They finally let him go. And he got on his bicycle--well he pushed his bicycle--and when he came to us, he was angry at us, because we didn’t go back to help him. But, you know we looked at him in this light, if he hadn’t said anything, if he hadn’t smarted off with them, nobody would have been subjected to anything like that. So, we just told him, said, “Look we didn’t come out here to cause any trouble, and you had no reason to say what you did. All you had to do was just get on your bike and just leave, you know.” Later on, during the later years, it became a joke. We all laughed about it, had a good time with that. But I guess that was probably one of the most memorable experiences with that type of situation that I’ve had. Of course, at the music, I mean at the movie theaters...

BRINSON: Well let me ask you one question about that store.

SISNEY: Okay, uh huh.

BRINSON: When you bought your sodas, were you standing up, drinking them in the store?

SISNEY: Yes.

BRINSON: There was no place to sit down?

SISNEY: No, no, we knew, we knew better than to try and sit down. [Laughing] So we just stood up, you know, and we drank our sodas. But it was very surprising that we were even served, because in that part of town, you know, we knew you just didn’t--nobody went through there. But in order for that part of town to get to the town area, where they could--in the downtown area--they had to come through our section, so to speak. And nothing was ever done. They were just free to come and go through our section of town. Nobody even thought about doing anything. But we knew better to go into (Laughing) that section of town, you know; because I guess they probably felt, well we don’t need to go through that section of town; because there wasn’t any downtown area down in that part of town. So they had to come through our section of town, and that’s what that amounted to.

BRINSON: Did you graduate from the all black high school?

SISNEY: Yes I did, in nineteen fifty-seven.

BRINSON: Okay, so all of your schooling, to that point, integration had not come to Henderson.

SISNEY: No, not then, not then.

BRINSON: Okay. What happened, you started to say something about...

SISNEY: The movie theaters...

BRINSON: The movie...

SISNEY: Right. I guess that was probably my first experience with segregation, because we were not allowed in the main part, the bottom floor of the movie theater. Of course, we had to go to the balcony. And of course, the balcony was hot, [Laughing] it was crowded up there and it was very uncomfortable. That was my first, I guess experience, with segregation, that I knew that I wasn’t being treated fairly. But in going through school, I never even thought about it.

BRINSON: Henderson, Henderson now, that’s where...

SISNEY: Right, Henderson.

BRINSON: Tell me how large the black population was there, while you were growing up.

SISNEY: I guess, I’d say about maybe twenty or thirty percent were black.

BRINSON: So a large population.

SISNEY: Yes, a large population, right.

BRINSON: That’s what I thought.

SISNEY: Yes, uh hmm.

BRINSON: I don’t know Henderson, but have read a little bit about it.

SISNEY: Right, right.

BRINSON: And there was some trouble there, as I recall. Was there not? When the schools were finally...integrated?

SISNEY: Integrated? I don’t know. I don’t recall, because I was in college at the time.

BRINSON: Okay.

SISNEY: Well, no I wasn’t in college at the time. I had finished college and began teaching school here in Bowling Green, when the schools became integrated, you know. I think this happened in sixty-five, I believe.

BRINSON: They didn’t call the National Guard out in Henderson?

SISNEY: Not to my knowledge.

BRINSON: Okay.

SISNEY: Not to my knowledge.

BRINSON: Okay, okay. I may be thinking of the wrong place, but then you would know, I’m sure.

SISNEY: But I had a great experience when I was on the Commission, because I was asked by the Director if I would go to Henderson and serve on the, in the capacity of a Hearing Commissioner; because there was some apartments in Henderson, that were, they were trying to integrate at the time. And of course, they weren’t allowed to integrate the apartments. So, I had, I guess the opportunity to go back and serve in that capacity, because there was a suit against the landlords. And I said, “Oh, I remember when I was a kid in this area of town, when we were not allowed certain things.” And that brought that memory back to me. And I said, “Well, I’m in a different capacity now.” (Laughing)

BRINSON: That’s right, you were. What happened when you graduated from high school? What then?

SISNEY: Well, I graduated from high school in fifty-seven. And then I went to, I had a Band scholarship to Kentucky State College at the time, it’s Kentucky State University now, but it was Kentucky State College at the time. And of course, it was segregated. I finished Kentucky State in sixty-two, and I was employed here in the Bowling Green City School System in nineteen sixty-two at a segregated school, High Street School.

BRINSON: Now, let me ask you, what did you major in, in college?

SISNEY: I majored in biology and I minored in French. And I taught General Science when I finished.

BRINSON: Okay. Were you involved in athletics in any way when you were growing up?

SISNEY: Yes, yes, in high school I was involved in football, basketball and I was on the boxing team.

BRINSON: You could do all that and play in the band too?

SISNEY: And played in the band as well. As a matter of fact, (Laughing) we didn’t have very many band members at the time, and a lot of the athletes played in the band. So at halftime of the football games, (Laughter) we would go out and perform formations, you know, with the band. Because without us, without the athletes, the band, there weren’t enough members to form the D H S of the band.

BRINSON: Well, I, myself played in my high school band and so we played at all the athletic events, of course, and it would have been hard, you know, to have to do both, and so I thought, but I see....

SISNEY: We were able to do both.

BRINSON: Did you do any athletics at Kentucky State?

SISNEY: No, I only played in the band at Kentucky State.

BRINSON: In the band, okay, it was sort of an either or at that point?

SISNEY: Yes, and I knew that’s where my scholarship was, so that’s you know, I just devoted all my time to the band.

BRINSON: So you came to Bowling Green.

SISNEY: Yes.

BRINSON: To high school...

SISNEY: To High Street School and I taught in the seventh and eighth grade.

BRINSON: Had you been to Bowling Green before?

SISNEY: Yes, because my high school played athletics against Bowling Green, but I had no idea that Bowling Green would ever be my home. (Laughing)

BRINSON: And you saw a job announcement? Or how did...?

SISNEY: No, I just applied throughout Kentucky, and throughout various other parts of , you know, the states, United States. And the job became available here--I was contacted by the Superintendent of the schools here, that there was a job available in Science, if I was interested. And of course, I was delighted. I jumped at the opportunity. And I guess right after I had signed my contract with the school system here in Bowling Green; I was contacted by the school system in Peoria, Illinois. And of course, I didn’t want to break my contract here, but I was thinking seriously about going to Peoria, Illinois. But I’m glad I didn’t break my contract, because I went on and did other things, other than teach school here.

BRINSON: I want to ask you, because I’m aware that Bowling Green was rather late in integrating the schools. And did so as a result of a court order, I believe....

SISNEY: Yes.

BRINSON: In the sixties, some time.

SISNEY: I believe that is correct, yes.

BRINSON: How did that work for you? How long were you at the all black school? And talk to me a little bit, if you would, about that experience, and also the experience of moving over into an integrated school system, such as it was.

SISNEY: Well, I think it was in nineteen sixty-five, that this, that this took place. We were reluctant to leave the comfort of our school--it was our comfort zone--to go anyplace else. Fortunately, I remained at High Street, because High Street became an elementary school. And the high school integrated into the city school system. So, I was fortunate to remain at High Street for six years. Then the next two years I became a team leader with the National Teacher Corps at another school. My job was to train intern teachers. So I remained in that capacity for two years; then I left the school system and I was employed at Western Kentucky University as the Assistant Director to the Teacher Corps Program there. And I remained there for a year, and then there was some problems in regards to, there were some racial problems at the high school--at Bowling Green High School at the time, because it was a new school. It was in nineteen seventy, I believe, when this school was built. And there were some problems with that, in the fact that when the school was built it was put out in the community where the black students, you know, were not allowed to go, you know. At the time, my thinking is, they were going to have two schools, and the blacks would be located in one school and the whites would be located in another school, in one of the affluent areas of the town, of the city. And this created problems, because the students that had attended High Street, they were bussed in to Bowling Green High School. And of course, there were some problems then, you know, I mean, you know, they were together at the new school and the black students just felt like they weren’t wanted there, so there were some problems. There were some fights to break out, there were some problems with the teachers. I was more or less recruited from Western, where I was serving in the capacity of Assistant Director to the Teacher Corps, to help alleviate some of the problems that they were having in the schools. So I left my job at the University and came to the city school system as assistant principal. At that was in the early part of seventy-one, where I remained for twenty-seven years, in the capacity of assistant principal. There were jobs that became available that I had applied for, for the head job and never received. I think I applied about three times and didn’t receive any appointments.

BRINSON: Why do you think that might have been?

SISNEY: Well the only reason that I could tell, is because of my race. And I say that, because I had all the qualifications and certifications of anybody else, and I had more experience than anybody else. And I was passed over. As a matter of fact, I was told by one of the Superintendents, I had, there was an opening at one of the elementary schools, at High Street School, High Street Elementary School, there was an opening.

BRINSON: For a principal?

SISNEY: For a principal. And I was approached and I asked, I asked the Superintendent, I said, “Well, what if one of the positions at another school became available, would I have been recruited for that school?” And the Superintendent told me, “Well to be honest with you, no you wouldn’t be.” And I said, “Ooh no? Why?” And he said, “Well because I just don’t think the community is ready for anything like that yet.” And I said, “Oh, okay, thanks for telling me. But I will not accept a position at this other school, at the segregated school, you know.” And he said, “Well, you know, I mean, it is a move up.” I said, “It’s not a move up for me. It’s a move back.” And of course, he couldn’t understand why I would pass up that opportunity.

BRINSON: Right. Did High Street, as the all black school, originally, did it ever have very many white students who came to school there?

SISNEY: Well, there were white students there, because there were several white families who lived in the area of High Street. We had some, there were white itinerant teachers, you know, who would come in and teach music, they’d come in and teach art. We called them Special Teachers. Yes, there were several, there several white students.

BRINSON: But not many?

SISNEY: Not many, this is correct, not many.

BRINSON: And at the, originally, the all white schools, when they were integrated, were there proportionately more black students there, than there were white students at the all black school?

SISNEY: Yes, yes there were. There were more black students at the white schools.

BRINSON: What happened to the black teachers with integration?

SISNEY: Well, unfortunately the black teachers had to assume a subservient role. They were shifted around to the various schools. But even, even the black teachers were sort of put back into the background. And they were, a lot of them, the majority of them had their Master’s Degree. They were better educated than the faculty that was already at these schools. Because the majority, as I said before, the majority of the faculty from High Street, had received Master’s Degrees and Rank I degrees.

BRINSON: And where had they gone to do graduate work at that point in time?

SISNEY: Well they had gone to Indiana University, I think Ohio State University....

BRINSON: Do you remember any who might have gone to Columbia Teacher’s College in New York City?

SISNEY: No, I don’t remember any of that.

BRINSON: Not that far away, okay. Did any of them lose their jobs, or have to take early retirement, sort of phased out in any way?

SISNEY: Well, none of them actually lost their jobs, but there were a couple that were phased out, yes. And that’s very unfortunate, but they were, they were phased out.

BRINSON: When did....

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

BRINSON: It was filed to integrate these schools, what was the discussion like among the black teachers?

SISNEY: Well they were concerned about how the students would be treated. They were concerned about the positions of the coaches, the head coaches. None of the coaches, none of the head coaches, that were head coaches at High Street School, were head coaches at Bowling Green High School. They, all of them had to accept the position of assistant coach, when they had more experience, more years in working with students than the other coaches. But they had to come in as assistant coaches, everyone came in as an assistant coach, which was a setback for them. Because they had, had winning teams, teams to go to the State Championship, and then to be told, well, I know that you did a good job where you were, but you’ll have to be the assistant coach. One of the assistant coach, not the associate coach, but one of the assistant coaches. And of course they did, they didn’t have any other choice but to do that or leave.

BRINSON: Did they have to take pay cuts to do that?

SISNEY: I don’t think any of the teachers had to take a cut in pay. I’m not sure, but I don’t think so.

BRINSON: I know you are married now.

SISNEY: Yes, yes.

BRINSON: So somewhere in all of this did you fall in love and get married too?

SISNEY: Well, I met my bride, (Laughing) at college, Kentucky State University. She’s from Albany, Georgia. And she received a teaching position also at High Street. So both of us were fortunate enough to teach in the same school. But first she taught at Franklin Lincoln in Franklin, Kentucky, because there wasn’t a position open at the time. Then when there was a position open at High Street, then she was able to teach elementary school there. She had to go back and get another major. She had majored in music, high school music in college, and there wasn’t a position open for that, so she had to go back and get her certification to teach elementary school, which she did. She taught reading. She was a special reading teacher in Language Arts.

BRINSON: Has she continued to teach, or did she...?

SISNEY: Yes, she continued to teach. She taught on up until she retired.

BRINSON: Do you have any children?

SISNEY: Have a daughter, yes. And of course, she knows nothing at all about (Laughing) the segregation experience.

BRINSON: How old is she now?

SISNEY: She is thirty-five now. When we tell her about how things used to be, she can’t believe. She can’t believe that, she just cannot, you know, she just can’t understand why things were the way that they were.

BRINSON: I wonder, Rick, when you, when the Superintendent told you that you were qualified but the time just wasn’t right. Did you think of contesting that?

SISNEY: I sure did, I sure did. I thought very seriously about that.

BRINSON: This would have been about what time period?

SISNEY: I guess maybe, say uh seventy, around seventy. Yes, I thought seriously about contesting it, but my wife, she was unwilling for me to do so. She just didn’t want the hassle going through with that, she didn’t want the publicity. She just felt like, well, you know, maybe something better will come along, just ride it out, you know. And of course, I guess we are somewhat different, you know, I wasn’t willing to ride it out. I wanted to contest it, but I also wanted her to be pleased with the decision.

BRINSON: Well, and there were two of you in the school system.

SISNEY: Right, and this was what she sort of, that’s why she was reluctant for me to do that.

BRINSON: Tell me how your appointment to the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights came about.

SISNEY: Well, I was very active in the community, you know. And I was very active with the local Human Rights Commission. And through my Human Rights and Civil Rights activities in the city--I was appointed--well I was recommended, referred by one of the other civil rights, human rights workers, because she was well known. Her name was Mrs. Lula Offutt, and she was a nurse.

BRINSON: Can you spell that last name for me?

SISNEY: O F F U T T. She was a nurse at the hospital, and she was very active in civil rights. So, she recommended me to the Commission.

BRINSON: Now, she was a member of the local Commission?

SISNEY: Yes, she was a member of the local Commission, right. Very active, very active.

BRINSON: Tell me about that a little bit, how was she active?

SISNEY: Well she was, I guess she was a motivator for the citizens in the black community to get involved--to make themselves known--to let people know that they would be willing to serve on various Boards of the city. And this was her involvement. She was not a militant or radical. She was just a motivator. She wanted to see some of the people get involved. And she felt like, well, if you don’t let the people know that you are willing to serve, you never will receive any appointments. So, you know, we were able to get our names around to some of the agencies and some of the Advisory Committees, to let people know that we would be willing to serve.

BRINSON: Do you know enough about her to know, did she grow up in Bowling Green, or did she move here?

SISNEY: No, she grew up here in Bowling Green, her family, all of them are from Bowling Green, yes.

BRINSON: Okay. Was there a local NAACP Chapter here?

SISNEY: Yes, yes.

BRINSON: Can you tell me anything about the history of it? How far back? Or....was it active?

SISNEY: Yes, it was active, it was active. There were several members with the local NAACP. A gentleman by the name of Frank Moxley, Doctor Moxley was very instrumental with the NAACP. I think, if I am not mistaken, he might have been the Director at the time.

BRINSON: The Director or like the President...?

SISNEY: The President, yes, I’m sorry, the President.

BRINSON: ...of the Chapter.

SISNEY: He was a motivator as well. To this day he is still very active in the community.

BRINSON: I have heard about him. In fact I am going to talk to him.

SISNEY: Yes, right. He was probably the leader, during the time of the beginning, the onset of the NAACP and other organizations, because everybody looked up to Mr. Moxley.

BRINSON: So maybe he can tell me a little bit more about the history.

SISNEY: Oh yes, he can tell you, he knows the history of everything here in Bowling Green (Laughing). He knows the history of Bowling Green.

BRINSON: Okay. (Laughing) Were you active with NAACP? Were you a member?

SISNEY: I was a member. But I was more active with the Human Rights Commission.

BRINSON: Commission, okay.

SISNEY: Right, yes, with the local Human Rights Commission. I participated with the NAACP. And I know that I couldn’t be as active as I wanted to with both of them, so I chose the Human Rights Commission.

BRINSON: Let me ask you, the sixties of course, we had sit ins and demonstrations all over the South. In Frankfort in sixty-four, I believe it was, there was a rally in an effort to try and get the Public Accommodations Law through the Legislature. Did, particularly in terms of the rally in Frankfort, did anybody go from Bowling Green? Was there a contingency that went that you heard about?

SISNEY: I really don’t know. I really don’t know if there was anybody from Bowling Green to go or not, but I’m almost sure that there was. I didn’t go, but I believe there were several others who went. One thing about the integration of Bowling Green, there were no marches, there were no sit-ins, there was nothing like that, you know. Everything just sort of opened up. There really weren’t any problems, and it was surprising, you know. People say, you mean you all didn’t have to march? You didn’t have to carry any signs? You didn’t have to do any of that? No, we didn’t.

BRINSON: Why do you think that was? I mean, certainly a decade earlier they dragged their feet on opening the schools.

SISNEY: I think because the citizens of Bowling Green just really didn’t want the attention brought to them. They didn’t want the news media to come in; they wanted everybody to feel like, well you know, everybody is being treated fine, there is no need for any of that. And of course, my wife, she was very surprised because she is from Albany, Georgia, and that’s where the Civil Rights Movement began in Georgia, right down there. This was during the time when Martin Luther King and all of them, you know, were down there marching. There were fires every place, and she just, you know. When things happened so smoothly here, you know, she couldn’t understand that. And I told her, I said, “Well that’s just the difference between Kentucky and Georgia.” (Laughing)

BRINSON: It’s interesting that she was from Georgia, but she came to college at Kentucky State.

SISNEY: Right, yeah.

BRINSON: How did that come about, did she...?

SISNEY: Yes, there was a college that she could have attended in her own hometown, Albany State College, but she wanted to get away from home. She wanted to see what it was like in other parts of the states, United States, you know. And she chose Kentucky, and I think the reason is because, I think Kentucky, the Kentucky State University, College at the time was cheaper, very reasonable for out of state students. So that’s why she chose to go. She knew that she wanted to go out of state, so she picked a college that would be suitable for her family income.

BRINSON: One if the areas in this project that we are looking at--is how journalism--how the media, what kind of attention they did, or did not give to the civil rights struggle; particularly in the sixties when there were sit-ins and demonstrations. And as you probably know, the Louisville paper gave it a lot of coverage and some good editorial support. The Lexington paper, you may not know this, didn’t cover it at all. And there were a fair number of sit ins and demonstrations in Lexington, but they had an owner, publisher, who just made a very conscious decision to ignore it.

SISNEY: To ignore it, huh?

BRINSON: And I wonder, you really didn’t have that level of activity here, but my first question, Rick, would be: in the black community here in the sixties, what were the newspapers that were coming into the area, that people read about what was going on in other areas? Did they watch television? How did they get news from the outside world?

SISNEY: Well, from newspapers, from The Courier Journal and from the television. And of course, they were--I guess some, some of the black citizens in Bowling Green were ready to, you know--to seize the opportunity to do some of the things that were necessary, that they felt were necessary; just like some of the other cities were doing. But as I’ve said before, they just didn’t have to do that. But they were ready. They had organized various groups, you know, to I guess sit-in at some of the counters, you know; at Woolworth and places like this, but they didn’t. I remember when I came to Bowling Green, as I mentioned before, there was one drive-in theater that we could attend, but there was another one that we could not attend. There was one movie that we could attend, but there was another movie we couldn’t attend. The bowling alley was the same way. Just seemed like all of a sudden, the doors were open.

BRINSON: How about swimming pools?

SISNEY: Swimming pools? There weren’t any, there weren’t any swimming pools at the time, that I know about. There might have been one out at Beach Bend Park, which was a no-no, you just, you know, you just didn’t even think about swimming.

BRINSON: Right. How about the library?

SISNEY: The library, I don’t recall about the library.

BRINSON: Was there a black library and a white library at one point?

SISNEY: No, no.

BRINSON: Oh, okay.

SISNEY: I guess, I guess the library that the black community utilized was the school library. They were always able to come into, the schools, you know, and utilize the school’s library.

BRINSON: What about the hospital and health care? Were there any black physicians in town?

SISNEY: Yes, yes there were. There was, as a matter of fact, there were, I guess, three, two or three, medical doctors, black medical doctors at the time, and that was: Doctor Z. K. Jones and Doctor Beckett. They were physicians at the time, and they were able to, you know, from their office to the hospital, you know. And let’s see, were there any...?

BRINSON: So they had hospital privileges?

SISNEY: Hospital privileges? Yes. There were, I think there was a dentist here. There was a pharmacist. But only the two doctors remained. I think the others passed away. Of course, all of them have passed away now.

BRINSON: Are there any black physicians today?

SISNEY: I think there’s one, I think there’s one.

BRINSON: How about lawyers?

SISNEY: Lawyers? No. No lawyers, I think only one black doctor, dentist, no. One black dentist, I’m sorry, female. No pharmacist.

BRINSON: Are there any prominent black businessmen or women in the community?

SISNEY: Yes, there’s a car dealership, Martin, Cornelius Martin, who has a Cadillac dealership here. And of course, there is a, the plant manager to the General Motors Corvette assembly plant is black, but that’s just about it.

BRINSON: Have, is the black population today about the same percent of the total population that it was, say when you first arrived here? Or have many blacks left and gone elsewhere?

SISNEY: Well, I think there’s more now because of the Corvette assembly plant. Of course, you have so many of the, the white population has grown tremendously.

BRINSON: When you say the plant, you mean because it has opened up jobs to the...?

SISNEY: Well, they brought in the employees that they had at the General Motors plant in Saint Louis. So there were a lot of Saint Louis people to come to Bowling Green.

BRINSON: I didn’t ask that question right, I’m sorry. People who grew up here, in the black community, do they tend to stay, because they can find work, they can find community, or do they leave

SISNEY: Yes. The people who grew up in Bowling Green and their children, remain in Bowling Green. But we have several people to come into Bowling Green and then leave and go to other places. But the people that were born here, the generations here, they have remained in Bowling Green. They won’t leave.

BRINSON: What about sons and daughters when they graduate high school and go off to college? Do they come back or do they tend to go other places?

SISNEY: Some of them come back, and a lot of them attend Western Kentucky University, so they are able to stay at home and get pretty decent jobs. There are several who leave, but I guess the home people sort of stay. They stay around.

BRINSON: Let me go back to your early involvement with the local Commission on Human Rights. Talk to me about that. How did you get interested and what were you doing with them? What was happening with the Commission at that point?

SISNEY: Okay, well I was young and energetic (Laughing) and I saw some things that needed to be done. There were other young, energetic people around and we were just not satisfied, sitting back, letting things go the way they were. We wanted to get involved. We wanted to make sure that the youth had something to look forward to. We weren’t as concerned about ourselves, as we were about the youth, the children coming up. I guess that is how I got involved. Because I was asked to coach one of the Little League baseball teams. Well, this was the Jackie Robinson league. So I said, well, these kids, our kids have so much talent, but we are not allowed to play any other teams, you know, in the community. We have to play the teams in our League. And I didn’t think that was fair, because we couldn’t...

BRINSON: Were they all black teams?

SISNEY: Yes. They were all black teams of the Jackie Robinson League, where you had other leagues in the city, that we weren’t allowed to play. And they weren’t allowed to play, well we would have allowed them to play us, but they didn’t want to play us, you know. But we weren’t allowed to play them, so we had our own league. And I knew in order for our kids to get recognized, their talents to get recognized, there had to be something, there had to be some exposure. And that’s one of the reasons why I became as active with the Commission as I did.

BRINSON: Do you remember...

SISNEY: And for employment purposes as well. I wanted to make sure that a lot of the people in the community, especially those that grew up in the community of Bowling Green, were allowed to get decent jobs.

BRINSON: Did the early commission here, actually handle complaints? Or was it....in some places, early Commissions tended to study, to make recommendations, to advocate that way, but they didn’t at first, nor did the state commission either.

SISNEY: The early....right....The early commission, no they more or less acted in the capacity of the NAACP. They heard complaints and they tried to do what they could about the complaint. They would go in and they would talk to landlords and plant managers and this type of thing. But to really be that effective, no, they didn’t receive complaints, like the commission does now. The Human Rights Commission now receives complaints and they are able to do something about it.

BRINSON: And the Bowling Green Commission still exists today?

SISNEY: Right, yes.

BRINSON: Well, good.

SISNEY: Yes.

BRINSON: In some places that’s not true.

SISNEY: Right.

BRINSON: Tell me about your appointment to the State Commission. How did that come about?

SISNEY: Well, that’s what I was referring to when I was talking about Lula Offutt. She was the one who referred me to the state. I guess she saw something in me at the time. She saw how active and how involved I was and she said, “Maybe he needs to go on further. Because he has some ideas, you know, that maybe he could sort of help us with.” So she recommended to the governor that I would be appointed. And that’s how my appointment came about.

BRINSON: Do you remember any of the meetings? What were they like? Were they in Louisville always, or did they move around the state?

SISNEY: No. At the time they were just in Louisville. And they were very, the Commission was very effective. I was very impressed with it. I said, “Wow, I didn’t know all this was going on.” The little things that we were involved with in Bowling Green, when I got to the State Commission, I saw so many, major problems. And I felt good about being a part of that.

BRINSON: Do you remember any of the other individuals who served with you?

SISNEY: Oh yes.

BRINSON: Or on the staff at the time? I guess Galen Martin was...

SISNEY: Galen Martin was one, very, very active, very up-front, very for real. I called him a for real guy. And the other staff members were. There was Tom Ebendorf, I remember, he was a very good staff member.

BRINSON: Was he a lawyer?

SISNEY: Yes.

BRINSON: Okay.

SISNEY: And there was Lakeland Cosby, who was, he was on the staff.

BRINSON: Cosby like Bill Cosby? C O S B Y No relation?

SISNEY: No, no relation. He’d probably say that he was. (Laughter) And let’s see....

BRINSON: Other commissioners?

SISNEY: Yes, there was Doctor Lashley, from Hopkinsville. He served on the Commission at the time.

BRINSON: Tell me about him, because I’m actually going to interview him in July.

SISNEY: I don’t think you will.

BRINSON: Well, he now lives in Skokie, Illinois and he’s in a nursing home.

SISNEY: I thought he’d passed on.

BRINSON: No, I talked to his daughter just a couple of weeks ago.

SISNEY: Doctor Lashley from Hopkinsville?

BRINSON: Uh huh.

SISNEY: I was told he had passed on. Okay.

BRINSON: He was at the Virginia Street Baptist Church.

SISNEY: That’s correct, that’s correct.

BRINSON: No, he’s still living.

SISNEY: Oh, okay.

BRINSON: If you want, I’ll give you his address. I’ll send it to you.

SISNEY: Okay, I would appreciate it, I would appreciate it.

BRINSON: Okay.

SISNEY: Because he and I traveled to Atlanta for the national convention, the Human Rights Convention. We went together for that.

BRINSON: He is in a nursing home, but his daughter said he is quite, you know.

SISNEY: Alert?

BRINSON: His mind is quite alert and what not.

SISNEY: Well, I wasn’t aware of that. I’m glad (Laughing) I’m glad to know that.

BRINSON: Well, tell me a little bit about him. And you went to the Atlanta conference?

SISNEY: Yes. Doctor Lashley was very respected in the community of Hopkinsville, because he was a minister. He was also, I think he served in the school system there, I believe, I’m not sure. But he was very active in civil rights. I guess that’s how his appointment came about, because of his being as active as he was at the time.

BRINSON: That’s right, let’s see, you both were appointed in nineteen seventy-one, the same time.

SISNEY: Okay.

BRINSON: You served much longer than he did. He was there about five years.

SISNEY: Yes. I had three appointments. (Laughing) I was re-appointed, re-appointed, re-appointed, because I served as a Hearing Commissioner, you know, across the state. I guess that’s why I stayed on as long as I did. Because they would call on me and say we’ve got a case in Owensboro, we need you to go down there to serve as a Hearing Commissioner down there. So I’d go down there and I’d go to various parts of the state.

BRINSON: Do you remember any of those cases, that sort of stand out in your recollection of that experience?

SISNEY: Yes, I do, and they were dealing with housing situations. I remember...

BRINSON: I’m going to stop just a minute and turn the tape over.

SISNEY: Okay.

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

BEGIN TAPE TWO SIDE ONE

SISNEY: The case I remember the most, dealt with apartments, right here in Bowling Green. And of course, there were lawyers from Bowling Green that I had to deal with as a Hearing Commissioner. They were, they knew me in the city as being a school teacher, but they didn’t know at the time that I was on the State Commission. So, when they saw me there, they were wondering what was this guy doing behind the bench. (Laughing) I remember those cases quite well, but most of them dealt with housing, the ones that I served on.

BRINSON: I don’t know, I haven’t asked anybody this Rick, from the Commission, but did you receive any sort of stipend for your work with them? Did they reimburse your travel or your meals? Was there anything given to kind of offset your expenses?

SISNEY: Yes, there was a stipend that we received. I can’t remember how much it was. But we would receive a stipend for our gas and for our food, you know, this type of thing, yeah.

BRINSON: Okay. How about any other people that you recall who served with you?

SISNEY: Yes, there was a gentleman from Franklin by the name of Jimmy Stewart.

BRINSON: What can you tell me about him? Was he a teacher also?

SISNEY: Yes, he taught in the Franklin - Simpson County School system. He taught at the high school there, in Franklin, Franklin-Simpson. He taught Social Studies. That’s about the only thing that I could tell you about him. I think he served one term, I believe.

BRINSON: The Commission, today, thinks that he may have moved to Louisville.

SISNEY: Yes, he’s in Louisville, that is correct. Yes.

BRINSON: We haven’t been able to locate him.

SISNEY: I haven’t been able to locate him either. I’ve been trying to locate him. I haven’t been able to locate him either.

BRINSON: There was also a gentleman named Grant Wilson, from Somerset, who was there from seventy-one to seventy-five. He’s deceased. Do you know anything about him?

SISNEY: Right, I don’t know. No, I don’t know...

BRINSON: Do you remember him?

SISNEY: I remember him, but I don’t know anything about him. And there was a gentleman from Eddyville or Kuttawa someplace in Western Kentucky. No, there’s a gentleman from Madisonville, Caldwell Smith, who has passed on.

BRINSON: I don’t have anything about him

SISNEY: About Caldwell Smith?

BRINSON: No. Thank you, I’ll write that down. Caldwell?

SISNEY: Right, Caldwell Smith. He’s passed on now.

BRINSON: And he was from Madisonville?

SISNEY: Madisonville, right.

BRINSON: Was he white or black?

SISNEY: He’s black. And let’s see.

BRINSON: Do you remember anything about what he did?

SISNEY: He was the vice-principal of the school, one of the schools in Madisonville.

BRINSON: And then the gentleman that you were referring to Kuttawa. Is it E. W. Benberry?

SISNEY: That’s it, Mr. Benberry, Mr. Benberry, yes.

BRINSON: What do you remember about him?

SISNEY: Well, soft spoken, very alert, very intelligent, very concerned about problems that were going on in the state.

BRINSON: Was he a Hearing Examiner with you, that you remember?

SISNEY: No, no, no. I was, I did most of the, I heard most of the cases. I was the Hearing Commissioner for the majority of the cases.

BRINSON: Okay. Did you, when you were the Hearing Examiner, was your territory, by and large, in this area of the state?

SISNEY: Yes.

BRINSON: They would never send you, say to Ashland?

SISNEY: No. We went to Ashland for some of, for one of our meetings, right.

BRINSON: Right.

SISNEY: But as far as, being a Hearing Commissioner in those places, no. It was just around in this area, Owensboro, Henderson, Bowling Green. I think these were the only places that I can remember.

BRINSON: Reverend James Crumlin...

SISNEY: Crumlin, yeah, that’s right. I forgot about Mr. Crumlin. Yes, yes.

BRINSON: He was on the Commission.

SISNEY: Yes, Jim Crumlin, that’s exactly right.

BRINSON: And as I understand it, he was also one of the attorneys that helped to bring the lawsuit here, to integrate the schools.

SISNEY: That’s exactly right, that’s exactly right. Sure did.

BRINSON: Okay. Have you had any contact with him in a while?

SISNEY: No, I sure haven’t. Don’t know where he is.

BRINSON: Well, he’s in Louisville.

SISNEY: Oh, is he still in Louisville.

BRINSON: He’s had a stroke.

SISNEY: Oh, he has, okay.

BRINSON: And it is a little hard to understand him, at this point in time.

SISNEY: Okay, all right.

BRINSON: But he’s still active.

SISNEY: Okay.

BRINSON: Wanted to ask you also about a gentleman from Lexington, named Paul Oberst.

SISNEY: Paul Oberst, I was trying to remember Mr. Oberst’s name, yes, Paul Oberst. Is he still around?

BRINSON: He still is.

SISNEY: Is he? Yeah?

BRINSON: He’s not in good health, though.

SISNEY: Oh, okay.

BRINSON: But was he on the Commission during the time that you were?

SISNEY: Yes, he was, yes he was. As a matter of fact, I believe he was the Chair of the Commission at that time.

BRINSON: That’s right, that would have been then. And then I have a Mrs. Belle Smith, who was on from sixty-nine to seventy-five.

SISNEY: Uh hmm, right.

BRINSON: But I don’t know anything about her, where she’s from,...

SISNEY: I don’t know anything about her either.

BRINSON: And a Fred Anhouse, who...

SISNEY: I remember Fred, yes I do.

BRINSON: Do you remember where he was from?

SISNEY: I thought he was from Louisville. But he’s on that picture with me that was taken here in Bowling Green. Fred Anhouse, sure was, I remember that.

BRINSON: And then there was a Fanny Rosenbaum, a white woman from Louisville.

SISNEY: Fanny Rosenbaum.

BRINSON: Who was on during that time.

SISNEY: Yes, I remember Miss Rosenbaum, right.

BRINSON: Do you have any recollection of her?

SISNEY: Not anything that would stand out, you know. She was fiery, I remember that.

BRINSON: Was she? Okay.

SISNEY: She was fiery, yes.

BRINSON: How about a Vernon Lee Johnson?

SISNEY: Vernon Lee Johnson, yes, I remember him.

BRINSON: Do you remember where he was from?

SISNEY: No, as a matter of fact, I didn’t remember his last name until you mentioned, I remembered Vernon, but I didn’t remember his last name. I don’t know where Vernon was from.

BRINSON: How about a Doctor C. L. Finch?

SISNEY: Doctor Finch....I don’t remember Doctor Finch.

BRINSON: Okay. And a gentleman named Grant Wilson, who had an appointment from nineteen seventy-one to seventy-five.

SISNEY: Grant Wilson, I’m sure I, I’ve forgotten him, I’ve forgotten him.

BRINSON: Let me see here. We’re having trouble...

SISNEY: Locating some of these people?

BRINSON: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, anything else that you want to share about that Kentucky Commission on Human Rights experience?

SISNEY: Well, it was probably the most rewarding experience that I have had, since I’ve been in Bowling Green. There was a lot of good that it did. It was just needed, and it served the purpose of the need. And I can’t say enough good things about Galen as a Director. Galen was on top of everything. He would share everything with us. There wasn’t anything that would come through his office, that he wouldn’t let us know about. And he was willing to send anybody out to various areas that there were complaints. He was just a concerned person. I think Galen would have served in that capacity if he wasn’t even paid. He was really into what he was doing, and I really admired him for that, as well as, everybody else admired Galen for that. And I wish him well, whatever he is doing now.

BRINSON: Well, he’s supposed to be like you, retired, but he’s not. He’s working for, well I don’t know if he’s even working. He works with one of the housing coalitions. But right now he’s very involved in the school desegregation suit that has been brought in the last year. And he’s following it very closely.

SISNEY: Well go Galen! I knew, I knew he would be involved. [Laughing] What about Tom Ebendorf? Do you know anything about Tom Ebendorf?

BRINSON: No, I don’t. The other thing I’ll tell you about Galen.

SISNEY: Okay.

BRINSON: Is he’s a bee keeper.

SISNEY: Oh is he?

BRINSON: And I don’t know if he’s always been a bee keeper.

SISNEY: First to my knowledge.

BRINSON: I interviewed him, I actually, we did a couple of sessions together in Louisville last September. And I know he called me one day and he said, we have to change this, my bees have come in and I’ve got to put my honey up.

SISNEY: Is that right?

BRINSON: So he was nice enough to bring me a jar of his honey.

SISNEY: How about that. (Laughter) How about that.

BRINSON: I think he does that as a hobby, though.

SISNEY: Galen was always in my corner, you know. When I didn’t receive the appointments, recommendations for the jobs, openings at the high schools for head principal, Galen was always right there, supportive, wanting me to go ahead and file a complaint. (Laughing) He was just concerned. I remember when the school system was having its problems, you know, Galen would send down people from the State Department to investigate what was going on, and talk with various teachers, talk with students, and everything. That’s one of the reasons why things were as, went as smooth as they did, because Galen was on top of things. A lot of times he wouldn’t even wait until a formal complaint was filed, he would try to get somebody to initiate a complaint. I really admired him for that.

BRINSON: You told me before we turned the tape recorder on, I believe, that you had retired from the school system two years ago, was that?

SISNEY: Right, yes, yes.

BRINSON: And that you’re now working at Western University?

SISNEY: That’s correct.

BRINSON: Tell me again what your role is there.

SISNEY: I work as Academic Advisor for Athletics. I work primarily with the golf team, the women’s and men’s golf team and the football team. I work twelve hours a week, and my job is to make sure that the athletes keep their grades up, so that they can maintain their scholarships and their eligibility.

BRINSON: Wow, important job.

SISNEY: It’s a very rewarding job and it can be frustrating at times. Because a lot of times, the athletes, you know, they are used to being passed along in high school. And a lot of them come to college with that same mentality, and I have to let them know that they are in the major leagues now, not in the minor leagues and they are going have to study. So, whenever I check with the professors to see that they are not doing as well as they should, then I refer them to the tutoring coordinator, or to study hall. And make sure they are there doing what they are supposed to be doing. And it’s a part time job, but it’s a full time responsibility.

BRINSON: Sounds like though, in a way, you’re continuing to do what you’ve done in your teaching principal role.

SISNEY: Yes, yes, that’s exactly...

BRINSON: You’re still mentoring, helping, counseling...

SISNEY: Yes, that’s exactly right.

BRINSON: ...young people.

SISNEY: And I hope to do that for the duration, as long as I can, because that’s what I enjoy doing. And I was very blessed to get that position at Western. And I guess, probably the main reason I got it, is because of my involvement in the high school. I always try to be fair with all the students, firm, but fair, you know. And I make sure that there were human relations programs going on there and that all the kids got a fair chance. And we organized different groups. We organized student union groups. And we opened up the student union groups to everybody, to all the students. We had cultural diversity groups, where we had several, during the time there were, what you called the Hippie Generation. (Laughing) And a lot of the hippie kids wanted to be to themselves, because they were an outcast at the school. And they wanted to organize, but they couldn’t get anybody to serve as an advisor. None of the faculty members would serve as their advisor, so I ended up serving as their advisor. So we had a good time with that. We’d go out and do good things for the community.

BRINSON: And you needed an Afro with that.

SISNEY: I had a big Afro at the time. (Laughter) I had a huge Afro at the time. And I just had, I just enjoyed my career at the schools.

BRINSON: That’s great. Is your wife retired too?

SISNEY: Yes, she retired and she is doing substitute teaching now. Yes, yes. She can’t get out of it. She’s in love with it and she can’t get away from it.

BRINSON: Is there anything else that you would like to add to what we’ve talked about tonight?

SISNEY: I just wish that the Commission would still continue on, and I’m sure that it will, because there will always be problems. There will always be problems, always complaints. And I just hope that the Commission remains as active in the future as it has in the past. And wish that everybody could have experienced serving and working with Galen Martin.

BRINSON: And hopefully you will come to Louisville to the July eighteenth....

SISNEY: I’m going to try to make every effort that I can to be there.

BRINSON: Well good, well good. Well thank you very much for talking to me.

SISNEY: Well, you’re more than welcome, you’re more than welcome.

END OF INTERVIEW