Oral History Interview with Lucille Brooks

BETSY BRINSON: ....Lucille Brooks, in Franklin, Kentucky. The interview takes place at the African-American Heritage Center in Franklin. The interviewer is Betsy Brinson. If you, if we can get a voice level, if you’d give me your full name, your birth date and your birth place, please.

LUCILLE BROOKS: Lucille G. Brooks, five, thirty-one, twenty-two.

BRINSON: So you were born in nineteen twenty-two, and where were you born?

BROOKS: Simpson County.

BRINSON: Okay, and what shall I call you? Miss Brooks, Lucille?

BROOKS: Whatever you feel comfortable in calling me.

BRINSON: Okay. And tell me what the G., the middle initial?

BROOKS: It’s my father’s last name, Griffin.

BRINSON: Griffin, okay. Well thank you, Miss Brooks for agreeing to talk with me today. I want to just summarize real quickly what it is that we want to try and accomplish here this afternoon, and what we’re trying to do with this Kentucky Civil Rights Project at the Historical Society. We are trying to document the period in Kentucky from nineteen thirty to nineteen seventy-five. And we are taking a look at the whole effort that was made to eliminate legal segregation in Kentucky. And so that varies from place to place, and person to person and whatnot. But we knew you could help us kind of get a better understanding of what happened in this area of Kentucky. Let’s start, if we may please, can you tell me a little bit about your growing up, where you grew up, your family, what you know about your ancestors and whatnot.

BROOKS: I was born in the Eastern part of Simpson County, on my grandfather’s farm and stayed there, I guess, until I was about between one and two. And we took a complete circle going northward around Simpson County; and then finally moved within the city limits, on Bell Street.

BRINSON: To Franklin.

BROOKS: Franklin, we moved when I was about twelve.

BRINSON: Okay, so where did you go to school, before you moved to Franklin?

BROOKS: I went, I started school in Logan County, because we were in Simpson County, but the nearest school was in Logan County. The name of the school was Sand Bank; because when I started to school, the school at Middleton, which was closer, had been closed for about one or two years. I did from grade one to grade six, then we moved on Highway One Hundred, because my sister was in the ninth grade; and my mother did not want her to board in some other place. So we moved closer so that she could go to high school where we lived.

BRINSON: Tell me about your family, your immediate family.

BROOKS: I had only three sisters, two sisters and no brothers.

BRINSON: And were you the oldest?

BROOKS: I’m the youngest of the three.

BRINSON: The youngest? Okay.

BROOKS: Of the three.

BRINSON: And your mother and father?

BROOKS: They’re from Simpson County also. My mother came from what you call the Pleasant View area, which is in the Northern part of Simpson County; and my father came from the Eastern area. He originally, the family came from Woodburn, Kentucky, but they bought a farm in the eastern part of Kentucky.

BRINSON: So they made their living by farming?

BROOKS: Farming.

BRINSON: Did they have any other jobs?

BROOKS: No, at that time, farming was the main way of making a living. So my grandfather bought a farm in nineteen, it’s nineteen seventeen, eighteen.

BRINSON: What did they grow on the farm?

BROOKS: Well they grew tobacco, corn, wheat and the other grains. They also had livestock. My grandfather was very skillful in training mules on the farm.

BRINSON: Well, this is a big mule area, isn’t it? Or it was.

BROOKS: Yes, at one time it was considered a mule area.

BRINSON: The mule capital or something of Kentucky, I think I’ve heard. Did you ever help with any of the farming as a child?

BROOKS: Not that much, we did help my father a little; such things as sucking tobacco and worming tobacco at the time. Hoeing some, but we didn’t help him that much.

BRINSON: You mentioned your grandparents, what do you know about any of your family, beyond your grandparents, who I take it were from Kentucky also?

BROOKS: I don’t know that much about my grandparents, beyond my grandparents. I did look to find out who my grandparents’ parents were. I did find all of their names, except my grandmother on my grandmother’s side, which would be my great-great grandmother. I couldn’t find her name, but I know that she was a Taylor. Other things have kept me from looking into my genealogy and finding that out.

BRINSON: Do you have a sense though, that your family goes back a good way in Kentucky? Or do you think they came here from somewhere else?

BROOKS: Well I don’t know. I was very curious about my grandfather on my mother’s side. He was tall and dark, and I didn’t feel like that he was from African descent. I feel like he was more or less from some of the islands. My grandfather on my father’s side was more Indian than he was anything else. And I can’t remember my grandmother on my father’s side. And my grandmother on my mother’s side, she had quite a bit of Indian in her also.

BRINSON: Okay. So you moved to Franklin and you attended the school.

BROOKS: The school, at the time it was on Madison Street. It was called Franklin Graded and High School.

BRINSON: Franklin Graded and High School?

BROOKS: It was from first, one through twelve.

BRINSON: Approximately how many students attended while you were there?

BROOKS: I imagine about two hundred, two hundred fifty range.

BRINSON: And you went all the way through high school?

BROOKS: From the seventh grade through to the twelfth grade. We were the last class that graduated from the Madison Street High School.

BRINSON: Okay, and what year was that?

BROOKS: That was thirty-nine.

BRINSON: Nineteen thirty-nine and then what happened?

BROOKS: They built a new school over in this area, called Lincoln School.

BRINSON: But you had graduated...

BROOKS: I had graduated.

BRINSON: ...so you didn’t ever really, as a student, attend the Lincoln School.

BROOKS: No, I did not attend as a student.

BRINSON: Tell me a little bit about your high school, if you would please. Did you have any favorite subjects?

BROOKS: Well, at the time, with being such a small high school, you had to take the basic things. They had no electives. Whatever was offered for you to get the sixteen credits, which was necessary at that time, was what you had to take. I liked math quite a bit, that was my favorite subject.

BRINSON: Did you have any extra-curricular activities at school?

BROOKS: None, other than there was a lady, a Miss Medley, that came from Ohio, and she was hired to teach English. She was a Home Economics major. And since she was a Home Economics major, the principal thought that this was an opportunity for the young ladies to learn something about Home Economics. So we had a class of Juniors and Seniors had Home Economics, and Freshmen and Sophomores had Home Economics. And she only stayed there a year. I was either a Freshman or a Sophomore at the time, so I had Home Economics.

BRINSON: Do you remember anything specific about that class that you did?

BROOKS: Well, she had some options, and one of her projects was, you either made a garment, beginning with a simple garment up to making something as complicated as a dress, or, but all of us had to do all of the types of seams. Then you had a choice of learning to do some of the things like knitting and crocheting and tatting. So I preferred to do the knitting, and the crocheting and tatting, rather than to make a garment.

BRINSON: So you graduated in tell me the year again?

BROOKS: Nineteen thirty-nine.

BRINSON: Nineteen thirty-nine, okay, and then what happened for you?

BROOKS: Well, I didn’t go to school for a year, and then I entered Kentucky State College.

BRINSON: And you did an undergraduate degree?

BROOKS: Yes, I did an undergraduate degree and graduated in forty-four. And came back here to work.

BRINSON: What did you major in?

BROOKS: I majored in Math and I minored in Chemistry and Biology. (Laughing) But I came here, and without my knowing it, I was employed as a teacher-librarian. So I didn’t have the hours, because Kentucky State was somewhat similar to the high school, it had just the mere necessities. So I went to Atlanta University the summer before working to get some hours in Library Science.

BRINSON: I imagine growing up in what I understand is a small and fairly rural community, that, was Frankfort and Kentucky State sort of a change of environment for you?

BROOKS: Yes, it was just like moving into a new world, because I had not had any experience in being away from home. And even though I graduated, I was seventeen and this was to me, rather young to start making choices and decisions and self discipline and so forth.

BRINSON: And Atlanta University probably would have been even more of a ...

BROOKS: Challenge, yes.

BRINSON: ...eye opener for you?

BROOKS: But it was an experience to go that summer to the Library Science.

BRINSON: Miss Brooks, when you were growing up, were you active in a church?

BROOKS: Yes, very active.

BRINSON: Can you tell me...

BROOKS: Well, I mentioned the fact that we had made a circle around Franklin, and we settled in....We went to Pleasant View Baptist Church. And I can’t remember that, because of age-wise. And my first remembrance of attending church was Middleton Church. There were three ladies that taught Sunday school, my mother and another teacher and another lady. They had charge of the young people. Even though it was a small area...

(Tape goes off and on)

BRINSON: We were talking about your church activities growing up.

BROOKS: When we moved to Highway One Hundred about two miles or three miles from town, we continued to affiliate with Pleasant View Baptist Church and Alpha Baptist Church until we moved. And my mother felt that we would be closer to Elevated Baptist Church, so we started attending there.

BRINSON: Elevated?

BROOKS: Elevated Baptist Church. There I took part in the youth activities that was afforded at that time.

BRINSON: I wonder, has there ever been an NAACP Chapter in Franklin?

BROOKS: Yes, we have one and I have documents. That was not the first one. I don’t remember exactly when it was organized, and we do have the material here. But from the Louisville Leader, we had an NAACP earlier, in, somewhere in the late twenties, early thirties.

BRINSON: And then did it continue from that time?

BROOKS: No, it disbanded and then it re-organized.

BRINSON: Do you have any idea when it disbanded?

BROOKS: The first one, I haven’t the slightest idea.

BRINSON: And is there one today?

BROOKS: Yesss, and no. (Laughing) We’re not quite as active as we were. They’re still functioning.

BRINSON: Are you a member?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: Have you been a member in the past?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: Was there at any time, that you’re aware of, a youth program at the NAACP?

BROOKS: Yes. We had actually, two types of youth programs, and that’s the Youth Council of NAACP, and then we have the Axcell Program, which deals with talent of young people, scholastic talent.

BRINSON: How do you, axle?

BROOKS: Axso.

BRINSON: Spell that for me please.

BROOKS: A C T--S O.

BRINSON: Would there have been an NAACP Chapter, do you think in the fifties?

BROOKS: Oh yes.

BRINSON: Yes?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: Were you involved at that point with them?

BROOKS: Not actively.

BRINSON: Do you remember enough about it, that you could tell me who the leaders were?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: Okay.

BROOKS: A Reverend Coleman was instrumental in getting it started the second time. And then there was a Reverend Spates, Standford, Leslie Holdum, Mrs. Virginia Briggs, Herschel Goodnight.

BRINSON: Herschel Goodnight?

BROOKS: John Johnson.

BRINSON: So how many members do you think they had during that period?

BROOKS: Well they had anywhere, membership, as far as membership, they had over a hundred members, but in the regular attendance they had somewhere about fifteen to twenty or twenty-five.

BRINSON: And what was their agenda in the fifties? What were the issues that they were concerned about?

BROOKS: Equality, as far as work was concerned, recreation, schools.

BRINSON: Okay. And of course in nineteen fifty-four the Brown Decision came down. What happened in Franklin around the school integration issue?

BROOKS: Well, it lingered for a while, before, like all the other towns. They were reluctant to change. Because you find that people do not want to change, just a way of life. I think that maybe both sides was afraid of it, did not know what to expect. So it continued to present itself, just as a storm will it continues to progress. Until nineteen sixty-four, it had gotten to the place that we were asked to try to keep our children over at the school, because of the fact of the lack of room for housing all the children. And that they were expecting to build more to accommodate a type of integration. So they had, the first year, volunteer integration.

BRINSON: Did many people volunteer?

BROOKS: Yes, well it was eighteen, eighteen children went the first year. The young lady that was here today, she was one of those.

BRINSON: And they went all day?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: They didn’t go just to take courses?

BROOKS: Only one instance did we have, that a young man went and took courses, and he wanted to stay in the segregated school. But he was advanced enough in math that he wanted to take pre-calculus and it was not offered at Lincoln, so he went to Franklin-Simpson to take pre-calculus for the period.

BRINSON: So it was voluntary the first year.

BROOKS: The first year.

BRINSON: And then what happened?

BROOKS: The second year, they integrated the whole high school and the elementary grades from one through eight at Lincoln.

BRINSON: And you were teaching at the time?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: Tell me what, how did they, what happened to the teachers?

BROOKS: Well, those that did not have tenure, were encouraged (Laughing) in various ways to, not to expect a job for the next year. And those that had tenure were really tortured, and if you didn’t have quite a bit of stamina, you would have thrown up your hands and said, “I’d rather go find another job.”

BRINSON: Tell me please, what you mean by tenure?

BROOKS: Well in teaching, if you have taught four years, they can give you tenure--without your--if they want to; and then if you teach the fifth year, you automatically have tenure without them ever having given it to you. And tenure means that you really can’t be fired, unless it’s something out of the ordinary that you have done. But of course you know, if you’re hired, you can be fired.

BRINSON: Did, and were the teachers, the black teachers in particular, were they moved to the white schools?

BROOKS: Those that taught in high school were moved to the white schools, wherever they wanted to place them in the schools.

BRINSON: What happened to you?

BROOKS: I was given a job at Franklin-Simpson High School, in the Math-Physics field.

BRINSON: So you actually moved also...

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: ...the second year?

BROOKS: The second year I didn’t teach in the schools. When they completely integrated, I was given a job as Visiting Teacher for a year, supposedly being on the administrative staff. But they didn’t have enough room for the other lady and I to work, and so we had a office over to Lincoln School.

BRINSON: Okay...

BROOKS: So...

BRINSON: Go ahead.

BROOKS: So the next year I started teaching in the high school.

BRINSON: Let me go back just a moment, growing up in a segregated society the way you did, do you remember the first time that you really were made aware that it was segregated and ways that it might have been different?

BROOKS: You mean the schools?

BRINSON: No, just for you generally, growing up.

BROOKS: Well, I think maybe I might have been a little more prepared than I thought; because living in the rural area, as long as we did, the part of my life that I did, there’s a camaraderie between people, not necessarily races. There’s incidents that bring you together, for example, wheat thrashings, births of children, measles, incidents like that. And sometimes children of the same age playing together, things of this nature.

BRINSON: But across the color line.

BROOKS: Yes, and you, you seem like you destroy the idea of color, to a degree.

BRINSON: But when you came to town as a child, were you able to shop in the stores and try clothes on?

BROOKS: Yes. Of course, this is just like everything else, it’s variable. There were some liberal store owners, and there were some non-liberal store owners. But I didn’t encounter that many. (Laughing) I think my experience with that type of situation was more or less in Atlanta when I went. And some of the things that I saw in Atlanta was really amazing, because large shoe stores, they had places for you to sit. They were very nice...

BRINSON: That were segregated places?

BROOKS: Yes. And I don’t remember you having the privilege to try on clothes. But here, you were given that privilege; however they had places where they had colored only or white only and this type of thing. But it just depended on where you were.

BRINSON: While you were growing up, restaurants here, could you eat in the restaurants?

BROOKS: No. And that was variable also. They had areas that were not conducive for wholesome eating. Where maybe you could go in and eat at the counter or the table; where they were preparing the food or something of this kind. But to go in and sit down and order from a menu, as the others were doing, you didn’t do that. And you didn’t wait on them either. There were no black waitresses either.

BRINSON: Was there a movie theater here?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: How did that work?

BROOKS: Well they had areas, like the balcony, they called themselves reserving for blacks.

BRINSON: And did you go in through the theater and up to the balcony? Or was there a stairwell outside that went up?

BROOKS: There were two theaters, one you went down a little alley and went up the stairs. The newer one, you went through the same door and went up the balcony.

BRINSON: How about the library?

BROOKS: The library here was the result of a will or an endowment from Mrs. Ella Goodnight; and of course, at that time, she had requested that it was for white only. And we knew it was for white only. But now there was a family of guys, that they didn’t pay that any attention, whenever they wanted to read, they went to the library and they read. And no one asked them out. But I don’t think everybody wanted to trust being humiliated.

BRINSON: Was there a swimming pool?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: And how did that work?

BROOKS: There was no swimming in the swimming pool. And in the sixties, there was a rock quarry, and one of the young men drowned in this rock quarry. He was diving, swimming and he hit a rock. And my husband and I were coming from his hometown in Paris. And I said to him, I said, “Well the swimming pool will open.” And he said, “Why?” And I said, “Because the death of this child will arouse the consciousness of the people.” Two of the guys went to the swimming pool and of course, I guess, I don’t know all of the ramifications. But we do have that material here also.

BRINSON: So, the child who died, was a black child?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: And is there a hospital?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: And how have African-Americans been treated at the hospital, historically?

BROOKS: Well, the hospital has moved, and the type of hospital they had in the forties, fifties and sixties, it was completely segregated. They had only rooms, certain rooms that blacks could be admitted. They had separate waiting rooms. And I guess some of the doctors had opened their doors to people, rather than color, and had different ways for one to do, compared to others. They were thought to be oddities. But no one seemed to not go to them because of the fact of their practice.

BRINSON: Were these black or white doctors?

BROOKS: They were all white doctors. We’ve only had two black doc...practitioners in Simpson County.

BRINSON: I want to go back to the school integration and the role, if there was one, of the NAACP. You said they were interested in equality issues, that was their agenda. Did they play any role to encourage the schools to open up to integration that you are aware of?

BROOKS: No, they didn’t push integration. They didn’t do that. Their function was more or less after the integration had occurred. If an issue seemingly it was against the black people, there was some biasness, some unfairness, something of this....

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

BRINSON: Tape in turning it over--you were saying that you don’t think they were too active at the time with school integration, but afterwards they became more active in speaking out. Okay. Want to go back to when you started teaching in the integrated school. What was that like for you, in the beginning?

BROOKS: I had no problem with transferring to an integrated school system. In nineteen forty-nine, I wasn’t hired. I was encouraged to resign or whatever. And I went to the University of Kentucky for the summer. And at UK of course, this was the first time they had opened their door. That was the first time. And it was eighteen of us at that school. And of course, with that many people and you in the minority, and really in the minority, you found that there were some that treated you like you were a person and some didn’t. Then in sixty, the Student Council Manual that you saw--we had a student council, and they had a workshop at Georgetown. And every year we would make arrangements for the children to attend, who were to be officers of our Student Council. The first year I didn’t go, the second year, the first year I sent some children, the second year I went. The times that we attended, and that was several years. We attended until integration occurred. And there was no one there, but the black children from Lincoln only, one or two times. And I wanted to work with whites on a professional level at that time. And I tried to teach the children also to work with the children on a student-student level at the time. Because when we would go, they would become apprehensive, because it seemed as if everybody knew each other except them. And I told them that they don’t know anymore about the other children than they do. You are just black and it’s obvious that you are together, and when they get to know you, it will be different. And I would stay with them until we had dinner on Sunday afternoon, after the reception. I would tell them, I said, “You are on your own now, and you go and you make friends with whomever you want to. You come back to me, if you need me.”

BRINSON: So your school really was the only black school that participated?

BROOKS: Yes, one or two times there was one or two people from other black schools.

BRINSON: And you were like the advisor to the Student Council?

BROOKS: For the Student Council. I was the advisor to the Student Council there and I was co-advisor to the Student Council at Franklin-Simpson the whole time that I taught.

BRINSON: I’m going to go back and ask you some details here. You said you went to the University of Kentucky during the summer of nineteen forty-nine. Did you stay beyond the summer?

BROOKS: No. I was really going because I don’t think--it would take me years to tell you the situation in working in small towns. And things happen in the small towns as far as the school is concerned. It’s just difficult to say what had actually happened. But there was nothing unusual for you to lose your job, if they didn’t want you to work. So I went to the University of Kentucky, thinking that I would meet some principal or something there, where I could get a job for the next year.

BRINSON: Were you taking education courses?

BROOKS: It happened that I had met a former classmate from Kentucky State on my way to register. And that was the stipulation, that you could only major in Education, because Kentucky State did not afford enough courses for you to get any specific field, so you had to have the Education whatever. So I took Education and Math subjects.

BRINSON: So, let me make sure I understand this. So you’re saying, although you have a degree from Kentucky State, the University of Kentucky really didn’t honor that, to the extent that they would let you take any course?

BROOKS: At Kentucky State you needed to have twenty-four hours in your major. And they counted survey courses as courses in that particular area of concentration. UK did not, plus the fact I think you needed to have about twenty-seven hours, instead of the twenty-four. So this made you ineligible. It was a loophole.

BRINSON: And that really only applied to the students from Kentucky State...

BROOKS: That’s right.

BRINSON: ...who were the black students.

BROOKS: Because all of the other schools in Kentucky complied with the University of Kentucky rules.

BRINSON: One of the things, Miss Brooks, we found at the University of Kentucky, was that, even though the black students couldn’t go there until nineteen forty-nine. There were a fair number of black students who took correspondence courses from the University, back into the thirties even. Did you ever, were you aware that you could do that?

BROOKS: Yes, I was aware of it, because Eleanor Young, I don’t know, you’ve probably heard of her. I don’t know why, she didn’t have enough math hours, so she was taking, she took the correspondence course the year that I graduated. I tutored her in that course from the University of Kentucky.

BRINSON: You tutored her..?

BROOKS: At Kentucky State. She’s, we were in the same class.

BRINSON: Okay. I haven’t met her. I’ve heard a lot about her.

BROOK: She doesn’t know me now. (Laughing)

BRINSON: She might. (Laughing)

BROOKS: Oh, I’m joking, she does.

BRINSON: Oh okay. Well, when you first, when you went into the classroom with integration, tell me about the students in your class. Were they white and black?

BROOKS: Well, I taught physics, that was one of the classes. That was the first year. And I taught advanced math, and two courses of lower math, which was really code three. The physics classes, in my experience, I only taught one black child in physics. In the advanced math, which was third year arithmetic, business, more or less business math, there would be about two to three blacks in that class. In the survey courses, or the other classes, I’d have a fairly nice number of black kids in those classes.

BRINSON: And the first days that you went into your classes, after the schools were integrated, how did the white students receive you?

BROOKS: I had no problem. I had absolutely no problems beyond what I would have had at any other school. I think I preferred the advanced math class, the physics class; because they were children that really wanted to learn. They weren’t worried about what color you were. And so those that required a lot of supervision, I think I had the problems with them, not them having problems with me.

BRINSON: Do you think they did have a problem with you though?

BROOKS: Not necessarily. I assess myself as not having as much patience with slow learners as I should have.

BRINSON: And you think that they were...

BROOKS: I feel that they needed, they needed more attention than I was able to give them; or I could have made it a little simpler or more examples or more real. I could have done....I did my best, but I feel like I didn’t give them what they really needed.

BRINSON: So you, as I hear you, you don’t see, you see their problem more that they were slow learners, than that they might object to you, as a black person in the classroom?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: Okay, you don’t think that was an issue?

BROOKS: No.

BRINSON: Okay. In the early sixties, when in Louisville and Lexington, we had the sit-ins and the demonstrations and whatnot, to open up public accommodations. What level of activity went on here in Franklin?

BROOKS: Well I guess it went on in a minor way as it did in the cities. Sometimes they decided that they would go to a drugstore counter and sit down to have a sundae, banana split or whatever. It wasn’t that bad. I think it had been done in some larger city to the extent that they felt there wouldn’t be too much opposition to that. There may be a situation where they may have had a small area where they ate, and the proprietors might take the facility out to keep anyone from sitting down, so they wouldn’t say we don’t serve blacks in here. Just something like that may happen, they may take the facility out, rather than have a situation.

BRINSON: And who actually would go down and sit at the counters?

BROOKS: To be frank, I don’t remember any particular incident. But I have talked with different ones that were in that period, get telling situations that they had encountered.

BRINSON: How did the black churches behave about the Civil Rights struggle in this area? The ministers in particular, were they generally supportive or were they negative?

BROOKS: Well, you know you have ministers that feel like their area is just in the church. And there are ministers that feel as if their area is in their environment. And Reverend Coleman felt like that his area was in the whole environment where he lived, and took an active part in the decision making, how accommodations and things were. And there were others, that were not quite as interested in what went on.

BRINSON: Did Reverend Coleman and those who were interested, did they ever talk about it in their sermons?

BROOKS: Not to a large degree, they left it, they let that handle itself in the street. And on Sunday they confined themselves to the sermon, rather than outside things.

BRINSON: Let me just go back, because the population I think in Franklin around nineteen ninety was about seven thousand or so. And tell me if I am correct here, somewhere I have that maybe about twelve percent of the population was African-American. Was that?

BROOKS: That’s about right, it runs from about ten to fifteen. And that’s a nice round number, twelve percent sounds right.

BRINSON: Has that percentage stayed more or less the same over the last thirty or forty years?

BROOKS: I feel like it’s rather stable.

BRINSON: Have many African-Americans left the area? Been graduated from school....?

BROOKS: No. Well of course, someone that wants to further themselves in various areas of technology and professional life and things of this kind, they’ve gone. But we have a migration from some of the states south of us, like Tennessee. Well, Tennessee is the state that we get the greatest integration from.

BRINSON: Do people who graduate and go on to professional lives, do they ever come back to stay?

BROOKS: Not too many, not too many. Each time we have a war, it makes things just a little better than it was last time. And (Laughing) we’ve had enough of them; but they go away and they see what’s going on other places and they find issues, and that they can move forward; and it’s not as difficult to make advances out of your environment than it would be if you stayed in it.

BRINSON: So it’s a war, that actually offers them opportunities and new insights; and certainly until more recently that would have been mostly men who served in the Military. What about women who have grown up here, did they tend by and large to stay in the area?

BROOKS: Well you know, it’s like any other situation, women always follow men; and so whatever happens, if the men go, see they have to have wives, sometimes they were already married. They would send for their wives and so forth and so on. So men and women both have gone, it’s not just the male population.

BRINSON: Tell me the name of the newspaper here.

BROOKS: Franklin Favorite.

BRINSON: The Franklin...?

BROOKS: Favorite.

BRINSON: Favorite. And it’s been around a long time?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: Is it a weekly?

BROOKS: It is a weekly. One time it was bi-weekly, but they found out they didn’t have that much to print, I guess. But they went back to the weekly.

BRINSON: I’m interested to know how the newspaper handled the whole Civil Rights struggle, particularly in the fifties with school integration, in the sixties...

BROOKS: They handled the situation as was handed down to them by the Superintendent. Whatever the Superintendent said, that was what they did.

BRINSON: The newspaper just basically printed what the Superintendent had to say?

BROOKS: Yes and no. I’ll give you an example of what I am talking about. There was one young lady that was a cheerleader, wanted to be on the cheerleading squad. She decided that she was going to write the paper, concerning the situation. And so her letter got to the Superintendent’s office. And I was called in question about the letter. And I asked the Superintendent, “When did he get on The Franklin Favorite staff?” (Laughing) Because I asked him, “I wonder how a letter that went to The Franklin Favorite got to your office, because I didn’t know you were on the staff.” This is the type of thing I’m talking about.

BRINSON: So the newspaper actually referred the letter back.

BROOKS: That’s right.

BRINSON: Okay.

BROOKS: It was a tributary, everything fed into one system.

BRINSON: Does the newspaper have editorials, opinions, what not?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: Do you have any recollection, I know this was a while back, but just sort of generally, did they ever?

BROOKS: No.

BRINSON: Okay. No editorials about...

BROOKS: No.

BRINSON: ...African-American issues.

BROOKS: No. The same type of thing happens in small towns. If blacks did something, like disobeying the law, being arrested or this type of thing, you made the front page. You did something that was admirable, you made the back page. You know we’ve grown some from that, doing better, a little better.

BRINSON: Do you remember when the want ads used to be--used to have for men, and a section for women and a section for colored and a section for white? At what point do you think they got rid of that here? Especially the colored and the white.

BROOKS: I think maybe integration and Brown vs. Topeka, Kansas. I think some of this brought consciousness to some of the things that was happening.

BRINSON: So you think the paper just said it is time to get rid of this.

BROOKS: Another thing also happens is, we don’t live forever, as people die out, some of this dies out with them. And some of the prejudices have died with the elderly, blacks as well as whites. Because I feel like in some instances we are just as prejudiced as the others.

BRINSON: Can you give me an instance?

BROOKS: Why we are prejudice?

BRINSON: Uh hmm.

BROOKS: Well, I can give my own. I think you asked me about teaching in the school. And the year that I was a Visiting Teacher, we were to check on the absentees. And there weren’t enough absentees for us to have a full time job--work for two people. And so I started doing subbing or supplying while the teacher maybe had someplace to go, or was out sick or whatever. And so, I said when I started I was going to be aloof to the fact of this situation. I was going to remember all the evil things that I ever thought. I was just going to teach the subject matter, the child would not matter. And so I was out in the yard, in the school, with this third or fourth grade group of children and one of the little boys fell off the swings. I ran to the child and had him in my arms, before I knew what I had done. And when I looked, I realized that I had a white child, embracing him in my arms to see if he was hurt, or whether any bones broken and the skin broken and so forth. And when I let him go, I said, “I am stupid, because there is no way for me to teach and not get involved with the children as children and not as race.”

BRINSON: So you had to sort of overcome your own bias there...

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: ...in order to be the best kind of teacher.

BROOKS: Yes, yes.

BRINSON: I expect you were a pretty good teacher.

BROOKS: Thank you.

BRINSON: Your students said you were, when you left the room.

BROOKS: Really? (Laughing)

BRINSON: Yeah. Talk with me a little bit about voting in this area for the black community. Has voting ever been a difficulty--made difficult in any way for blacks in Franklin?

BROOKS: No, I think that if it has been, we have made it that way. We have a different system in Kentucky. You can vote--it’s a privilege--you can vote if you want to. No one keeps you from voting. In any situation, you would find that there would be people that would be low enough to sell their vote. And of course, I’m sure that it’s happened here, like it’s happened other places. But you’re not expected to.

BRINSON: But there have never--for example there have been periods when the polls were open only certain hours--or the offices to register to vote were only open certain hours that would make it hard for some people, say working on farms to get in and register?

BROOKS: Well, I think the NAACP has alleviated some of the problems, because every so often they have a voter registration drive and this alleviates some of that problem.

BRINSON: The NAACP helps to sponsor that?

BROOKS: Yes.

BRINSON: What about running for office? Have any African-Americans run, been elected to the School Board, for example?

BROOKS: Yes. The young man that was in the room, that we said was a family room, he served, was the first black that was on the School Board. We have another black on the School Board now.

BRINSON: Approximately when was he elected to the School Board?

[Tape goes off and on]

BRINSON: So you think it was in the seventies that he was elected?

BROOKS: It was either seventies or early eighties.

BRINSON: And did he serve, for how long do you think?

BROOKS: It was four years at least.

BRINSON: Four years, okay. Is there like a town council or city...?

BROOKS: City Commission.

BRINSON: Commission.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: November the fourth, nineteen eighty.

BRINSON: So he was elected to the School Board, November fourth, nineteen eighty, okay. Have any blacks ever run for City Commission?

BROOKS: My husband was the first. It wasn’t commissioners then, it was City Council. And he ran in nineteen, I guess it was about sixty-seven or sixty-eight, and won overwhelmingly, with more votes than any of the others.

BRINSON: Tell me about your husband. I haven’t asked you about him. What was his full name?

BROOKS: Matthew L. Brooks. He was born in Little Rock. I teased him about that, not Arkansas, Little Rock, Kentucky, it is near Paris, Kentucky. He also was a graduate of Kentucky State.

BRINSON: Is that where you met?

BROOKS: No, he was two grades, I think, ahead of me. But I didn’t meet him there. I didn’t know him there. I knew some of his friends, but I didn’t meet him. He and another guy came to--after World War Two--as Ag teachers. This was something they were instituting in the school system. They already had it in the white school, but they were going to have it in the black school. Guys were getting out of the service, and the guy that was head Ag teacher; they needed a Veteran teacher. And he and this fellow were very good friends and so he was hired as the Veteran teacher.

BRINSON: Then your husband had served in the war?

BROOKS: Yes, he served four years, two years overseas. He taught. I think we married in about nineteen fifty, about nineteen fifty. Was married for about nineteen years and he had a fatal heart attack, at his home, at Christmas time.

BRINSON: I’m sorry.

BROOKS: That’s all right.

BRINSON: Did he work as an Ag teacher?

BROOKS: Well, he worked as a Veteran teacher for quite some time. And of course, the Veteran program continues to wane and get smaller the further that you get away from the service. And the other guy decided that he would--his wife wanted to go to Detroit. So they moved to Detroit. As the Veteran program was becoming less and less, he was hired as the Ag teacher. And he continued the Veteran program until it completely gave out.

BRINSON: So he must have run a good campaign?

BROOKS: Well, he was a very likable person, had a lovely personality. He was very easy to get along with. He had met any number of the farmers, of both races, had no difficulty in having a camaraderie with them.

BRINSON: Did you have any children?

BROOKS: No children.

BRINSON: Just lots of school children.

BROOKS: Yes, million children.

BRINSON: How did your husband find his term on the city council?

BROOKS: Will you say it another way?

BRINSON: What did he like about it and what did he not like about it?

BROOKS: Well, my husband was not much of a sharer with information. He liked the camaraderie with the guys that were there. He enjoyed that, but he didn’t seem like he was interested in politics. He felt like that was little things that happened, was a little sneaky for him. He didn’t admire that type of thing. But he enjoyed people. He enjoyed working with people, almost in any way. But he was not much of a talker. That always concerned me, how he could develop the type of friendships that he did with people, when he did communicate to me, such very little with people. But somehow he would win their friendship.

BRINSON: But to have been elected in the sixties was....

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

BEGIN TAPE TWO SIDE ONE

BRINSON: For him to have been elected in the sixties was rather unusual for an African-American during that period.

BROOKS: Well, I feel like that there was a time when some of Simpson County realized some of the things that should have been done and could have been done. They had a slate of offices, and he was a representative on that slate. And of course, you could vote for the whole slate, or you could vote for that one person. But there were two blacks that ran at that time. He was the only one elected. The other guy, I think he kept as a fifth person on the list. However, Brooks died before his term was over, and the other guy finished out his term.

BRINSON: Have there been any other African-Americans from the community elected to the City Council?

BROOKS: Oh yes, oh yes. I think since that time, we have not had Council, we have not had representation as far as blacks are concerned. And now we have two Commissioners instead of the one.

BRINSON: I’m getting to the end of this here, but I wonder how you would assess the history of racial progress in Franklin? Has it been difficult? What would you say about that?

BROOKS: Well, I think that it’s the type of thing that you can’t just look at today and say tomorrow it’s better. I think you have to look back over years and say that we have made progress in this area; we’ve made more progress in another area; and we’ve made less progress in another area. I feel--as far as the churches and religion is concerned--I feel like that we are at the same place that we were when we first started. As far as the schools are concerned, I think they have made maybe moderate progress. Socially, I think that they have made more progress in that area than they have in some of the other areas, that I couldn’t tell why.

BRINSON: How about in terms of employment in the area?

BROOKS: Well, I think that they are lagging behind in not opening doors for administrative positions, as I would like to see it.

BRINSON: Is that with the city?

BROOKS: It’s all over, this is an area, where I feel like almost zero progress has been made.

BRINSON: What industry is in the Franklin area?

BROOKS: Oh my stars, I think we have about sixteen factories or more.

BRINSON: Do you? Wow.

BROOKS: I would not even start trying to name them. I think there was a test at one of the banquets, I believe Brown Printing Company hires more than anybody else.

BRINSON: You mean hires more African-Americans?

BROOKS: Hires more people, so more likely they hire more blacks too, than any other, because of the fact they hire more people.

BRINSON: So the industries, at least, have hired more African-Americans maybe, than the city.

BROOKS: But we do not have anyone that is in any administrative position of note. There may be a few little foremen, and so on and so forth; but as far as being in high positions. I think the Post Office has done....We have a Postmaster General, the Postmaster is black. But he is not from Franklin, which doesn’t matter as far as that’s concerned. This is a step in the right direction. Of course, I would be an idiot to say that I feel like all the high positions should be held by black people. But when we have no one holding high positions, you wonder why there shouldn’t be some opportunities for this.

BRINSON: How about in terms of the mail carriers and whatnot?

BROOKS: That’s doing fair. And I feel like most of those that have gotten on in Franklin were hired in Bowling Green first and then transferred to Franklin.

BRINSON: I know that there used to be an L&N railroad that came through here. Is that true today? Does the railroad run?

BROOKS: The railroad runs through, but of course the station has been gone for quite some time. That was a step for everyone in the wrong direction, because we should have left it there and renovated it for a historical site. But you know, hindsight is always twenty-twenty.

BRINSON: I wanted to ask you about students who attended the all black school here. In some Kentucky communities I found that they still have reunions. And I wonder if that is true here in Franklin?

BROOKS: Yes, they have a reunion here, and then some of the classes themselves have reunions that graduated from the all black school. There is a group of people that have, they’ve been having, at one time they had a reunion every two years, but I think the last one they had, it wore them out. (Laughing) And they decided that they weren’t going to have one quite as close together. But they usually have a reunion, which lasts from Friday through Sunday, with a banquet and a family hour and worship service; and all the fanfare, a dance and all the fanfare that goes along with it.

BRINSON: About how many people come to those events?

BROOKS: You know, I don’t remember there being a count as to how many. Usually they have a packet for just the whole thing, but there are more people that attend the banquet. And I imagine there would be at least three to four hundred people at the banquet.

BRINSON: Where do they have a banquet that size?

BROOKS: At the Franklin-Simpson cafeteria.

BRINSON: Well, you’ve been very patient with me. I’ve asked you a lot of questions, I know. I wonder Miss Brooks, if there’s anything that we haven’t talked about that you think is important for us to know on this subject?

BROOKS: No, I can’t think of anything.

BRINSON: Okay, thank you very much.

BROOKS: Yes.

END OF TAPE TWO SIDE ONE

END OF INTERVIEW