Oral History Interview with Elizabeth Oberst

BETSY BRINSON: ...nineteen ninety-nine, this is an interview with Elizabeth Oberst, O B E R S T, at her residence in Lexington, Kentucky and the interviewer is Betsy Brinson. Well thank you for very much for agreeing to meet with me this morning. Shall I call you...?

ELIZABETH OBERST: Elizabeth.

BRINSON: Elizabeth? Okay. Thank you. And we’ve already talked about how we are both Elizabeths. Just, I know you know, but this is for the purpose of the readers of the transcript or people who listen to the tape. What we are trying to do with this project is to, a couple of things here, we want to document the whole history of the effort to eliminate legal segregation in Kentucky from nineteen thirty to nineteen seventy. And today, I want to talk with you a little bit about you and your background, but I also want to try and talk to you a little bit about your husband, Paul and his involvement. And then I’d like to just ask you some questions about individuals who were active here in Lexington, that we don’t have any information at all, just to see if they trigger anything with you, in terms of recall.

OBERST: Okay.

BRINSON: Why don’t we begin, tell me where and when you were born, Elizabeth.

OBERST: Ann Arbor, Michigan in August, nineteen fifteen.

BRINSON: Nineteen fifteen, so that makes you...

OBERST: Eighty-four.

BRINSON: Eighty-four years old. Okay. And tell me a little bit about your growing up, your family, your early education.

OBERST: Well, it was just ordinary, very ordinary. I had two brothers and I went to--my family was and is Catholic, and so I went to the Catholic school in .

BRINSON: Okay, were you younger or older than your two brothers?

OBERST: I was in between.

BRINSON You were in between, okay. And how did your family make their living?

OBERST: My father taught Law at the .

BRINSON: Okay, and your mother, did?

BRINSON: Took care of, kept everything together at home.

OBERST: She was a housewife.

OBERST: Uh hm.

BRINSON: Do you have any information about where your family originated from? Your early ancestors, what part of the world?

OBERST: Oh, not really. my mother’s forbearers came from and my father’s came from , I think.

BRINSON: Okay, okay. So you attended Catholic schools all the way through high school?

OBERST: Yes.

BRINSON: And you graduated in what year?

OBERST: , thirty-five, excuse me.

BRINSON: How many people were in your high school graduating class, approximately?

OBERST: Oh, I think it was about fifteen.

BRINSON: Okay so, small.

OBERST: Uh hmm.

BRINSON: What kind of a student were you?

OBERST: What do you mean by that?

BRINSON: Were you, did you like school?

OBERST: Yes. I did pretty well.

BRINSON: Okay. And then what happened to you after high school graduation?

OBERST: Well then I went to college and then I went to Law school.

BRINSON Where did you go to college?

OBERST: .

BRINSON: And what did you major in there?

OBERST: Language and Literature as they called it. I think that was it.

BRINSON: And from there you went to Law school?

OBERST: Yes.

BRINSON: That was pretty unusual for a woman.

OBERST: Yes it was. There were, oh I guess, maybe eight or ten women in the whole school. [Laughing] Not very many.

BRINSON: Did you ever have a class with your father?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: Would that have been allowed even?

OBERST: Oh probably if he had wanted it, but he and I agreed that it wouldn’t be a good idea.

BRINSON: Did you have a particular area of the law that interested you, while you were in school?

OBERST: No, not particularly.

BRINSON: So you finished Law school in about nineteen....

OBERST: .

BRINSON: , okay. How did you and Paul meet?

OBERST: Well, he had graduated from U. K. Law School, and then he went up to to get an additional law degree. The Dean here encouraged him to do that, and he did. And that’s how we met.

BRINSON: Now he, I understand, is from ?

OBERST: Right.

BRINSON: Can you tell me his birth, what year he was born?

OBERST: .

BRINSON: And do you remember how you first met?

OBERST: Well, there was a young couple, both of them were law students, and as we look back, we think that they invited both of us over one evening. Or maybe each of us just happened, but I think we were invited.

BRINSON: Uh hmm. You want to stop here?

[Tape stops and resumes.]

BRINSON: So you met while you, while he, well you both were in Law school.

OBERST: Yes, yes.

BRINSON: He was doing graduate work and you were doing a regular law degree.

OBERST: That’s right.

BRINSON: And then what happened?

OBERST: Well, then he got a job with a law firm in . And I guess it was less than a year that happened, and he went into the Navy and was out in the Pacific for quite a while. Then after he came back and the war was over, the Dean of U. K. Law School asked him to come and start teaching, so he did. And then we were married that summer.

BRINSON: And what was his area of expertise?

OBERST: Especially Constitutional law and then Tortes also was his specialty.

BRINSON: Let me go back and ask you a little bit about his family and his growing up, what you recall about that.

OBERST: Well, I don’t know very much, because I didn’t know him in those years. His father was a lawyer in and there were six children, of which Paul was the oldest. That’s about it, I guess.

BRINSON: Was he Catholic?

OBERST: Yes.

BRINSON: Because I know that has a nice size Catholic population now. I don’t know how far back that went.

OBERST: Well, I don’t either, really.

BRINSON: Do you know anything about where his early ancestors migrated from?

OBERST: Oh, I think they came from .

BRINSON: From ? Okay. Yeah, Oberst would be a good German name.

OBERST: Uh hmm.

BRINSON: So the two of you moved to in...

OBERST: .

BRINSON: . And tell me about your, I know you have one son at least. Tell me about your children.

OBERST: Well, we have four sons and one daughter.

BRINSON: Okay.

OBERST: And this son actually lives with us and takes care of us. [Laughing] And that’s Jamie, James.

BRINSON : And do your other children live in the area?

OBERST: Well, one lives in , and the oldest one lives in , which isn’t very near, very close. And then two of them live out in .

BRINSON: So you had a busy time there for a number of years.

OBERST: Uh hmm, right..

BRINSON: ...with five children.

OBERST: Right.

BRINSON: Did any of them become lawyers?

OBERST: Our one daughter is a lawyer.

BRINSON: And she--where does she live?

OBERST: She’s in .

BRINSON: In .

OBERST: She works for the Oregon Bar Association in their Continuing Legal Education Program.

BRINSON: Did you ever practice or teach law?

OBERST: No. I worked in the Law, but never in a private practice.

BRINSON: Okay, tell me about what you did.

OBERST: Well, when I first graduated from Law school, they asked me to stay on at the . And I worked for a professor, who was producing a book on Probate Law, and similar things. So, I worked for him for, until I married and left there, about five years. And then occasionally, Paul would be, have a law review article that he was working on and he would ask me to check the citations and one thing and another, which I did. And then, let’s see, then I got to working for what’s called the Administrative Office of the Courts in . They run the Court System, they administer it. And I worked there for about five years, until I got tired of commuting, so I quit.

BRINSON: I can understand that. And what period would that have been, ?

OBERST: That was, oh, nineteen seventy to seventy-five, I guess.

BRINSON: Okay, okay. But am I correct in saying that from the time you moved here, for many years, your full-time responsibility was really taking care of children, raising children?

OBERST: Uh hm and managing the home.

BRINSON: Right, right, okay. Were you involved in any community or church activities during that time?

OBERST: No, I don’t think so.

BRINSON: Well I wanted to ask you about the Lexington Commission on Human Rights and Religion. Do I have that right? Let’s see. Lexington Committee on Religion and Human Rights, which was active here in the sixties. Do you remember that group at all?

OBERST: No, not really. Did it have a name?

BRINSON: It was a coalition of religious organizations in large part.

OBERST: I’m trying to think that....

BRINSON: ...but community groups.

OBERST: I was wondering if CORE was its title, but that was probably some other group.

BRINSON: No, the CORE was different. This was a group that got started in sixty-two, about two hundred and fifty people met at Christ Episcopal Church, to hear a report by a Reverend Robert Estill, who had just returned from the National Conference on Religion and Race. And it was out of that, that this group got started to sort of work on some of the Civil Rights issues and improving race relations and what not. Do you have any recollection of Robert Estill?

OBERST: No, I don’t.

BRINSON: He was the minister at the Episcopal Church at that point. And he and your husband actually served together on the State Commission on Human Rights.

OBERST: I know Paul was on the State Commission, but I don’t remember that name.

BRINSON: Okay. Well, at one point, you actually co-wrote a report on public accommodations with a woman named Mrs. Pauline Gould for this organization. Does that name mean anything to you?

OBERST: Well, I think I mentioned on the phone, that a black woman and I, and there might have been a third person, went to a--I can remember for sure, one restaurant. But I can’t remember whether we were thrown out, or what the result was. So, I’m suspecting that they took us in or I would remember more about it probably.

BRINSON: That would be right, because in sixty-four a lot of the places had opened up in . The golf course had not, there were some restaurants, but by and large, and as I understand the purpose of your committee was to sort of check out.

OBERST: I think so, uh huh.

BRINSON: ...who was open and who wasn’t. And then the organization, the committee took the research that you all did and turned it over to the newly created Commission on Human Relations under the city. And they were to take any action. So that the organization that you were with didn’t really--you ran a few programs, I remember reading something about an essay contest in the schools. It was called the . Does that mean anything to you?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: What can you, what do you remember about Pauline Gould? She was the black woman?

OBERST: Yes.

BRINSON: Okay.

OBERST: And a very nice, pleasant person. We enjoyed being together. And then I think she married somebody whose name was Gay. Have you heard of it?

BRINSON: Gay?

OBERST: Yes.

BRINSON: No.

OBERST: Well, I think so. And I believe she died several years ago.

BRINSON: Let me just ask you about some names of people and see if you...

OBERST: Okay, I probably won’t know them, but go ahead.

BRINSON: There was a fellow named Joe Graves from here?

OBERST: Oh yes.

BRINSON: ...who was active, he was not actually a member of the State Commission on Human Rights with your husband, but he apparently was active.

OBERST: Yes he was.

BRINSON: What can you tell me about him? Is he still living?

OBERST: As far as I know. But I don’t really know.

BRINSON: What can you tell me about him? I don’t know anything.

OBERST: I think he was involved in what was called, this has nothing to do with human rights: I think he was involved in a bank, called the Bank of Lexington. But whether he was the President of the corporation or what, I don’t know. And what else?

BRINSON: What was his role here? In terms of the whole Civil Rights issue?

OBERST: I don’t know, but he was active.

BRINSON: He was active?

OBERST: Uh hmm.

BRINSON: Okay. Did you ever know a woman named Abby Marlatt?

OBERST: Yes, she taught at U. K. in the Home Economics program they called it in those days. It is now called something else.

BRINSON: And she was active with the CORE chapter.

OBERST: She was.

BRINSON: How about a woman named Laura Massey?

OBERST: No, that doesn’t mean anything to me.

BRINSON: A gentleman named Stanley Rose? He was the Co-Chair of this Lexington Committee on Religion.

[Tech difficulties, tape stops and resumes]

OBERST: Called Carl what?

BRINSON: L Y M A N. Lyman.

OBERST: I don’t...

BRINSON: Okay. How about a woman named Mrs. Irving Gall, G A L L?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: She designed the logo for the one report I have. I guess I didn’t bring the logo with me, to show you. That doesn’t mean anything to you either? Okay. And then a gentleman named Gregory Shinert, S H I N E R T?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: No? Okay. He was the first Director of the Lexington Commission on Human Rights in the sixties. Let me just ask you, those are local people here in . Let me ask you about some of the names with, who served with your husband on the State Commission. And I know, I don’t believe you went to those meetings.

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: But if you have any recollection of--you have any recollection of sort what race relations were like here in the sixties in ?

OBERST: Well before it all began, before people began being active, there was definite segregation here. You sat in the back of the bus and you didn’t go to white restaurants or hotels or anything. But, and U. K. was segregated, blacks didn’t come to U. K.. And that’s about all I can say about those days.

BRINSON: So was your husband, your husband would have been there, probably, when the first black students were admitted to the Law school?

OBERST: Yes, he was active in that whole affair.

BRINSON: What can you tell me about that?

OBERST: You ought to talk to him about that, he knows...

BRINSON: Will he talk to me?

OBERST: I think he might, although.

BRINSON: Okay.

OBERST: Turn off the machine a second.

[Tape stops and starts]

BRINSON: Well, let me just ask you a few more names. These are people who served on the State Commission on Human Rights with your husband, so you may or may not have heard about them. And of course what I’m dealing with here too, for the women, is they, you know how we used to always go by our husbands’ name. So I don’t have any first names for a lot of these people. There was a Mrs. Dan Byck, B Y C K.

OBERST: No, I don’t know her.

BRINSON: There was a J. J. Dukemenier?

OBERST: Dukemenier.

BRINSON: Dukemenier?

OBERST: He taught in the Law school, but then he went to another place far away, I think. But Jesse was his first name and he was not married.

BRINSON: So he taught...

OBERST: It was J E S S E, I think.

BRINSON: So he was here at the U. K. Law school?

OBERST: Yes, and I didn’t know that he was involved in Civil Rights, I guess.

BRINSON: He was, he served on the Commission really just for a year, from nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty-one, and actually your husband came on in nineteen sixty-two, and served to--almost nineteen years off and on. Okay, do you know where Jesse moved to?

OBERST: I think it was the in , UCLA. I could be wrong on that, but I have a feeling that is where he went.

BRINSON: There was a gentleman named J. T. Hatcher?

OBERST: No, I don’t know him.

BRINSON: A Gilbert Kingsbury?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: And a Mrs. Robert Low?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: Jack Page?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: William Sherm?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: Frank Stanley, Sr.?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: Charles Steele?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: Charles Williams?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: Doctor Frank Kraus?

OBERST: No.

BRINSON: Glenn Denim?

OBERST: That names sounds familiar.

[tape goes off and on]

BRINSON: Sixty-two to nineteen sixty-five.

OBERST: Somehow I associate him with U. K., but I don’t know that.

BRINSON: There’s a woman named Kath.....

END OF INTERVIEW