Oral History Interview with Mort Childress

BETSY BRINSON: This is October 28, 1999, this is an interview with Mort Childress. The interviewers, this is a little unusual, we have three interviewers here, Betsy Brinson, John Ernst and Yvonne Baldwin, and we are interviewing Mr. Childress in his residence in Louisville, Kentucky.

BRINSON: Well thank you very much, Mr. Childress for meeting with us today. And I’d like to begin by asking you a little bit of biographical information about yourself. For example, where and when were you born?

MORT CHILDRESS: In Louisville, Kentucky, October the first nineteen twenty-three.

BRINSON: Nineteen twenty-three, so that makes you, how old?

CHILDRESS: Seventy-six.

BRINSON: Can you tell me just a little bit about your growing up? Who was in your family? What sort of education you had?

CHILDRESS: I went to Louisville Male High School, and have three sisters.

BRINSON: And one of those sisters is John’s...

CHILDRESS: Mother.

BRINSON: Mother, okay.

CHILDRESS: And then I went into the Merchant Marines in the Pacific and then into the Marine Corps. I mean the Merchant Marines in the Atlantic and the Marine Corps in the Pacific.

BRINSON: Was that...

CHILDRESS: That was about three years, something over three years, during the war.

BRINSON: During the war.

CHILDRESS: World War II.

BRINSON: And then what happened to you after the war?

CHILDRESS: I got several jobs and the family thought I’d like to be on the police department. And in forty-eight I went on the Louisville Police department.

BRINSON: You said the family thought you would like to, what did you think about joining the police force?

CHILDRESS: Oh I liked it, yeah.

BRINSON: So that made sense to you.

CHILDRESS: Yeah, sure.

BRINSON: What sort of requirements were there at that time for you to become a police man?

CHILDRESS: You had to take--a written test was required--a physical. You had to be, like five, I think it was nine or ten at the time. And then go through class, recruit class for, at that time I believe it was ten weeks. They fluctuated at different times.

BRINSON: And how many others were coming into the force about the same time that you were in Louisville? Do you remember?

CHILDRESS: In my class there was twenty-two.

BRINSON: Twenty-two, okay.

CHILDRESS: It was after the war, and they needed more police, regular. [Laughing] You know all about that from your brother there, don’t you? Johnny.

JOHN ERNST: Yeah.

CHILDRESS: It was rather difficult to get on at that time, it was. They’ve gone down on the requirements since then as far as, they had to because of, I guess because of the young ladies that needed to come on the police department, that we needed. And of course we didn’t get our first young ladies until nineteen twenty-one. I didn’t....

BRINSON: Since what was that?

CHILDRESS: Nineteen twenty-one.

BRINSON: Nineteen twenty-one? You had a woman on the police in nineteen twenty-one?

CHILDRESS: Yes.

BRINSON: That was pretty unusual.

CHILDRESS: First black one in twenty-two, first black police officers in twenty-three.

BRINSON: Was that pretty unusual for the time around the country?

CHILDRESS: Yes, sure was, uh huh.

BRINSON: Why do you think Louisville was ahead of other police forces in that respect?

CHILDRESS: I don’t know how many other police departments had young ladies, but the opinion was at that time that they couldn’t police. They were too small, and weren’t capable of going out there, big enough and strong enough. Of course, I think that may have been a cop out.

BRINSON: The black police that were hired during nineteen twenty-two, I believe you said?

CHILDRESS: Twenty-three. One black lady in twenty-two, two black officers in twenty-three.

BRINSON: Can you talk about that a little bit? Why did the police force feel they needed to bring blacks onto, into the job area?

CHILDRESS: Politics.

BRINSON: Politics. And where did they work primarily?

CHILDRESS: The two black officers, the lady officers, until in the sixties worked in, we called it the youth bureau, domestic type trouble, children on the street. Didn’t actually do police working on the street. The black lady would fit in that category. The two black men, they didn’t want in uniform, so they put them in detective bureau.

ERNST: They didn’t want them out on the street? High visibility as police officers?

CHILDRESS: Right, right for a number of years they had to change their uniforms before they went home, get into civilian clothes.

BRINSON: Why do you think that was?

CHILDRESS: We were prejudiced. [Laughing] That’s the big thing isn’t it? My feeling is they didn’t want anymore blacks than what they felt they had to have. And of course, as black people began voting, it got to politics and they needed the votes. So they get black as often as they can. In the cards here, I have it where the Director of Safety at one time said--that was before a police lady was on the force--and he wouldn’t let them go, because he said, “There wasn’t any work that they were capable of doing on the police department.” So he didn’t. Of course, that brought around a furor.

BRINSON: And that would have been about what period? What date?

CHILDRESS: It’s in here on the card, I’ll give it to you.

BRINSON: Okay, you can do that later. Well frankly you surprise me, because I’m surprised that there were black police as early in Louisville as that. One of my questions then would be, why did they not patrol the black neighborhoods?

CHILDRESS: Why did they not patrol the black neighborhoods?

BRINSON: You said they didn’t really work out on the street. They worked in the detective bureau?

CHILDRESS: Oh well, afterwards they did--I have, even when they did start working on the street and everything. It’s in this stack of information I have here. [Laughing] Off hand I can’t remember it. I know when I came on the police department in forty-eight, this is the kind of information you seek? We had our physicals, well we had our physical training at the YMCA; and a black couldn’t train with us. They had to train in their facilities, separate. And that went along that way for years.

BRINSON: So in your class, there were approximately how many blacks?

CHILDRESS: Two.

BRINSON: Two, okay. Do you have any sense that the training was similar or different from place to place?

CHILDRESS: No, they went through class with us. They had the training in class, but as far as physical contact then we were separate.

BRINSON: Had the same instructors?

CHILDRESS: Uh--I don’t think so, but you know, when you’ve got one or two police officers, which they had there for a while, would come on. And I have pictures of them when the city wanted to show how many police we had on the force, black police, and they took a picture of all of them. And so they could say, they had this many black police officers on the force. Am I being too frank? [Laughing]

BRINSON: No, that’s fine, that’s fine.

CHILDRESS: I’m just kidding. [Laughing]

BRINSON: Describe, describe a little bit about the training that you had to undergo to become a policeman.

CHILDRESS: Well we had to learn criminal law, state law, city ordinances. Had to pass the test, make a passing grade on the test. One of the blacks flunked out that came in when I did. And then the physical training was rough. It wasn’t easy, such as, I have what you had to do, but such as running a mile in a certain amount of time, doing so many push-ups, doing so many chin-ups and that type thing. A lot of them you had to do that before you got in, and after you got in, you had to do it again to improve some. But you had to climb a rope hand over hand, and that type thing. Mostly the guys didn’t have a lot of problems with that, because at that time, most of them came from the military. About, I’d say maybe ninety to ninety-five percent of the police officers came from, you know, products from the war.

BRINSON: Was that true for the black police as well, who were coming on board?

CHILDRESS: As far as I know, but when you say coming on board, there wasn’t that many.

BRINSON: What are we talking about? Two, three...?

CHILDRESS: I could show you each class.

BRINSON: Well, your class, if you can think...

CHILDRESS: Well, my class was two, and one of them dropped out.

BRINSON: Okay.

CHILDRESS: Uh huh. I would, one of them dropped out, not because of the physical training, but because of passing the test, what we had to take. We had about maybe ten or twelve subjects.

BRINSON: Okay. Have you got any questions that you want to ask about anything?

ERNST: Not during this period.

BRINSON: Okay. What I am most interested in talking to you about, Mr. Childress, is sort of some of your perceptions and recall about the sit-ins and the demonstrations here in the early sixties. But I also want to go back a little bit and have you talk, if you can, about sort of what race relations were like here in the fifties, for example.

CHILDRESS: Yeah, this book, if you’ve never seen that, it’s a doozie.

BRINSON: Principles of Police Work with Minority Groups.

CHILDRESS: Right, uh huh. I don’t think you could do it today. I didn’t have a lot of difficulty getting along with black people at all. In fact, I was the first commanding officer to get black women and black men working out of the detective bureau, out of Narcotics. The Major at the time told me--I went to see him, I said, “I need some black people to get down here in this black--you know, the whites stand out too much.” He said, “Childress, it will never work, it will never work.” I said, “Well, I’ve got to have it. Give me a shot.” And I got females, black and white, and they worked out real good. We put them undercover.

BRINSON: So this would have been about what year?

CHILDRESS: Sixties.

BRINSON: And you were working in..?

CHILDRESS: Narcotics.

BRINSON: Okay.

CHILDRESS: They did a good job. There has been, in my time too, some reverse discrimination. And that was when maybe they had to go down to get a black female, and I think went down as far as eighty-fourth on the list, passing up an awful lot of people, to get that, because of an order to get it. But got down in, they had to go, in other words, they passed up people. And I know of a time when they passed up, in my opinion, two officers that were going for Sergeant, and made a black officer that was in third place. I liked the black officer that was in third place, but also the two that were passed up. That hurts, that hurts their family and things like that. But it’s reverse discrimination, because it happened way more the other way, than it did that way, but it did happen.

BRINSON: Up until about nineteen sixty, would you say that the city hired more black women, more black men, about even, on the police force?

CHILDRESS: More black men.

BRINSON: More black men, okay. You mentioned women in the beginning, and I just wanted to make sure.

CHILDRESS: Yeah, it seems a little odd that they got, the first black was a woman.

YVONNE BALDWIN: But she had certain jobs that were sort of uniquely female. She was working with juveniles and those sorts of things?

CHILDRESS: Not only that, but that kept like that until, oh, I guess the fifties, nineteen fifties. So, we’re talking about from nineteen twenty-two to nineteen fifty-five, sixty, whatever, in through that group. They worked directly, the females, and this Director of Safety is saying about--oh, another time--at one time, inspecting taxi cabs; and that was done by the police department, see, you can’t have this person, because they committed a crime or whatever. So, we had one man that did that. During the war, and this is in this stuff too, but during the war they wanted females, they didn’t have enough males.

BRINSON: And you’re talking about World War II?

CHILDRESS: Right. Doctor Sevren said, “No way,” he knocked it out. The females were getting ready to do it. And he knocked it out, said, “There’s no way females can drive cabs.” But that’s from the newspaper.

BRINSON: Well, that’s interesting though because during World War II so many other occupations opened up to women, medicine for example.

CHILDRESS: It finally opened up to them of course.

BRINSON: Right, and women moved into the workforce. But you’re saying that the police force here, made the decision not to do that.

CHILDRESS: The Director of Safety made that decision. The Police department, the Sergeant wanted it, and I think went along if it hadn’t been for the Director of Safety. The Director of Safety is in charge of any number of things within the city of Louisville, one of them the ordering of taxi cabs, Police department, Fire Department, so on, Health department.

BRINSON: Do you know about other police departments across the country during World War II? Did they take similar positions as Louisville in saying no, we’re not going to hire women, or did they some of them...

CHILDRESS: I feel sure that most of them felt that way. Most police felt that a lady couldn’t do the job of policing out here, that a man can do. And it’s through history--quite back there--that the Director of Safety, “I think he’ll make a real good officer, because he’s six foot tall.” Way back there police were--when I’m talking way back, I go back to eighteen oh six, but when I’m talking like even in nineteen hundred, a lot of police were five foot five, five foot four, because we’re getting taller all the time.

BRINSON: Right, you mentioned earlier voting and how that played a role in the hiring of black police. Talk about that a little bit. Who gets elected, for example is the Head of the Department of Safety an elected official?

CHILDRESS: He’s appointed.

BRINSON: He’s appointed.

CHILDRESS: Now he is, years and years ago in that way. But for many years to nineteen twenty-nine. But before that they didn’t have a Civil Service Board. Civil Service, of course, supposedly protects your job, as far as religion and the way you vote.

BRINSON: And those are appointed officials, to the Civil Service Board, or are they elected?

CHILDRESS: There has to be two Democrats and two Republicans, and the Mayor has the deciding vote.

BRINSON: Okay.

CHILDRESS: If it’s a tie, he has the deciding vote.

BRINSON: So you run for that seat? No?

CHILDRESS: You do what?

BRINSON: I’m not being clear, but you say there are two Democrats...

CHILDRESS: They’re appointed.

BRINSON: They’re appointed, but they’re appointed on a politically partisan basis.

CHILDRESS: Right. Well, you know two Democrats and two Republicans and the Mayor, whichever party he is, is, you know, going to be the deciding vote. It works, it works very well. As long as you got a civil court, or a criminal court, the police didn’t know that they really had as many civil rights as they actually have nowadays. We found out how much civil rights we have. Used to be, years ago, when a police chief said, “You was fired.” You was fired. That was it, you forget about it. But now you can take the case to court, you know, you have to take the route, through Civil Service. You have a hearing, go through Civil Service, and then you can take it on to court.

BRINSON: You’ll have to forgive me, but I’m fairly new to Kentucky. I just moved here from Virginia.

CHILDRESS: Sure.

BRINSON: And frankly it is a big surprise to me that you have to run for judge in Kentucky; because in Virginia they’re all appointed judges. And so your system, probably at other levels is very different than the one I’m used to. So I want to go back to my question about, you said earlier that it was important for the city to hire more blacks on the police force, because they had voting power.

CHILDRESS: Well, politicians of course, go for numbers. And I’d have to think, if I were a politician I want to get as many as I can, and I’m going to have to do as many, as much for this group as I can to get their votes.

BRINSON: Right, but it was the Mayor that was running or were there entities that were elected, positions that were elected closer to the Police force? Like the Police Chief in Louisville, how does he get his job?

CHILDRESS: He’s appointed.

BRINSON: Appointed.

CHILDRESS: He’s appointed. Now we can get into politics all over the place, you know what I mean. And I don’t know whether you’d understand it here. He’s appointed by Aldermen. We have Aldermen here. But I’ve never seen the time that the Mayor didn’t get what he wanted through the Board of Aldermen, for Chief of Police. So, even though they said the Chief comes through the Board of Alderman, he’s really appointed. The Mayor says, “I’d like to have this man,” and he gets him.

BRINSON: I’m intrigued that you know as much history as you do, and I’m told that you’re sort of the historian for the police department.

CHILDRESS: You know, they say that, but I get, like requests for information. Someone will call the police department, and say I don’t have that. I get requests from as far as Australia. I’ve got one now to answer in there. But I get about six or eight a month, requests for, my great-granddad was on the police department, do you have anything? I think I have about perhaps, ninety-six, ninety-eight percent of the police that’s ever been on the force, since, well, I guess eighteen oh six. And at that time, up to eighteen fifty-six, we didn’t have actually a Chief of Police. We had Captains to run the police department. And then after eighteen twenty-one we had Ex Officio Chiefs of Police, he was in charge of the Marshals and the Chief of Police, and Chief of Police. And then eighteen fifty-six we got what we actually call a Chief of Police nowadays. They call them both, I guess at the time, policemen and watchmen, up to that time they called, but they did the same thing.

BRINSON: Were you interested in history before you joined the Police force?

CHILDRESS: Well, I made my best grades in school in history.

BRINSON: Did you? So it goes back a long way.

CHILDRESS: Yeah, I just enjoy it.

BRINSON: Okay.

CHILDRESS: There’s a lot to find out.

BRINSON: Well, you certainly have several rooms of records and files and artifacts that you showed me before we started to...

CHILDRESS: You haven’t seen half of it. [Laughing]

BRINSON: I haven’t seen half of it? Oh, okay. Let me go to nineteen sixty when the sit-ins started here. Where were you in the department at that point in time?

CHILDRESS: I was in Narcotics. I headed Narcotics and part of the Vice Squad. And actually, I remember very distinctly when it began. I’d have to look at the day and time, but it was--I was about ready to get off, and I heard this one officer say that--I knew that worked in the Fourth District--and he said, “Radio send me some help at Twenty-eighth and Greenwood.” Said, “Send me some help.” And the person on the radio said, “How much help do you need?” And he said, “Send them all, radio.” He wanted everybody down there, because bricks were flying and whatever, you know. And we had information that...

BRINSON: Well, now wait a minute. You’re thinking about the riots.

CHILDRESS: Yeah, the riots, now what are you talking about?

BRINSON: I’m going back to nineteen sixty, where we had the sit-ins and the demonstrations to open up stores and restaurants and theaters.

CHILDRESS: Oh yeah, yeah. Fountain Ferry Park, Fountain Ferry Park was a big thing.

BRINSON: Were you in the same position in the sixties?

CHILDRESS: Oh yeah, uh hmm. In fact, well I can tell you way back there when I was riding a motorcycle; a sergeant told me, he said, “Childress, there’s people going through, black people going through Shawnee park. You go down there and tell them they can’t go through Shawnee Park.” And I said, “Why?” I didn’t know why, you know. He said, “Well because they’ve got Chickasaw Park on up there.” But I said, “You said going through.” He said, “Yeah they’re cutting through there, instead of going around the street and going through the park and people are complaining.” He said, “They’re not allowed to go through the park.” I couldn’t do that, so I said, “Yes sir.” I couldn’t make them not--I didn’t do it. I just went on down there and rode around and stuff like that. But I couldn’t do that.

ERNST: Was that in the fifties?

CHILDRESS: Yeah, uh hmm. Then during the sit-ins and whatever, when they wanted to go to the restaurants, and into the movie theaters, we were sent out to keep them from going into those places. And I remember I had the detail at Fountain Ferry Park, and I was told, there was a line there, don’t let anybody black past that line. And there was a lawyer, I won’t say his name, he’s still working. But he was down there, and he got all rough and that. I couldn’t do anything but stop those people from going across the line and going to Fountain Ferry Park. So, I locked him up, or had him locked up, the men that worked for me, came and locked him up, because he was causing a lot of trouble.

BRINSON: Was he white or black?

CHILDRESS: Black, oh no white, he was a white officer. You’ve probably seen him, because he’s--and I got along very well with the black lawyers and whatever. But anyhow he was down there with the people and …

BRINSON: That’s the lawyer now.

CHILDRESS: He’s a lawyer, he was a lawyer, and he was down there with the people. So when he went to court, of course I had to testify. And he got so mad with the judge and that, which wasn’t unusual for him. I forget how many hours he got, twelve hours or something like that. Well, you know, after a while, of course blacks, as they should have, got permission to go into Fountain Ferry Park, go into Fountain Ferry Park, into eating establishments and whatever. And I heard some of the restaurant owners say, “If I have to do that, I’ll just quit business,” and stuff like that. Just nothing unusual for that time.

BRINSON: Tell me about Fountain Ferry Park, is it a public park?

CHILDRESS: Oh, it was a public park with a lot of racing derby and a Ferris wheel, all those type things.

BRINSON: An amusement park.

CHILDRESS: An amusement park.

BRINSON: Did it have a swimming pool?

CHILDRESS: Yes it did.

BRINSON: Tennis courts and...?

CHILDRESS: No tennis courts, but a swimming pool.

BRINSON: And so prior to the early sixties, all of this was closed to blacks.

CHILDRESS: Sure.

BRINSON: Okay. Were you involved during any of the arrest of the demonstrators in the early sit-ins? Were you on duty then?

CHILDRESS: Oh yeah. I went out on Taylor Boulevard, no let’s see now. I’m getting into housing now, you know what I mean. And I guess that’s part of what you’re thinking about, isn’t it?

BRINSON: Well, still want to keep us on the early sixties and the whole effort to open up the stores and theaters and the restaurants. And I know that there were demonstrators who were arrested...

CHILDRESS: Lots of them.

BRINSON: By the police. And I’ve seen both, seen photos of both black and white policemen. And I’ve had one story told to me, and I’d like to hear your version of this, that the black policemen very frequently were sent to make the arrest of the demonstrators, maybe more than the white policemen were, but at the same time, I’ve seen photos of white police officers...

CHILDRESS: I don’t know about that. I wouldn’t think that, but you know, that may be someone’s opinion. I know, I used to, when I rode up--they ride one person cars now. We used to call them one man cars, but one person cars now. Some of the best people that ever worked for me, were black. And some of the best officers that ever worked for me, were female. I don’t particularly agree with riding in our west end now, where most of it is black, with one person cars. I think that people when they do that, the police officers will take and pass up things they wouldn’t ordinarily pass up, you know. I wouldn’t want a young female or male, either one, but female in particular if she was five foot tall and weighed a hundred pounds; I wouldn’t expect her to stop a car of black or white people fussing or hollering or cursing or anything. One police officer may have trouble with two people or one person, where there be two can handle six or eight people, just because like I said--but I’m all in favor, in fact I think sometime we’ll have more females on the department than males, it’s a good possibility. Everything being equal they have a tendency to out write us on the test. [Laughing]

BRINSON: Were you ever sent to the site of any of the demonstrations?

CHILDRESS: Well Fountain Ferry Park, like I told you and the rest of it.

BRINSON: Right, but in the early sixties.

CHILDRESS: Oh yeah, I was sent to like a picture show, a moving picture show, when they’d say don’t let them go in. I never had any trouble like that. I tell you....

BRINSON: Can we talk about that theater, just a few minutes here?

CHILDRESS: Well, I’d say now look, we’re going to have to arrest you, there’s no use doing it, you made your point, it’s a lot to...

END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

CHILDRESS: ...and carry them and put them on the truck. Well I didn’t do that. And I was commanding officer at the time. Not that I wouldn’t have or anything like that, but I noticed that about two or three people that I thought, well these people have a lot to do with what’s happening here. So I went over and talked with them and said, “Look, how many of you want to get arrested? This is going to get in the paper and all that. What’s the use”--well less thirty or forty--they said, “Okay, we’re going.” So it’s how you talk I think sometime to people. And I never, you know, you don’t want to get to where you’re anxious and I guess to the point that you had a bad day at home or something like that, and let it bother you with what you’re doing on the police department.

BRINSON: I want to ask you about the theater, for example, I want to talk about the people who were there, best that you recall. Were there both blacks and whites?

CHILDRESS: At some time there would be a few white with the black, a few. Now I didn’t make all the theaters, you know, this went on a long time.

BRINSON: Do you remember the name of this particular theater?

CHILDRESS: Ooph, let’s see.

BRINSON: Or where it was located?

CHILDRESS: Yeah, it was on Market Street, and I’m thinking maybe about Twenty-third.

BRINSON: Okay.

CHILDRESS: Something in through there. It’s not there anymore.

BRINSON: Of the demonstrators there that day, would you say there were more men, more women, sort of evenly divided?

CHILDRESS: More young people, they were younger. I wouldn’t know, you know what I mean? I didn’t see any drastic thing. But those things I don’t really pay too much attention to, unless it’s something way different, you know. Men and women, I think were about equal to talk with. I don’t want to say handle, it sounds, you know.

BRINSON: Right. And you say, how old is a young person to you?

CHILDRESS: Twelve.

BRINSON: Twelve?

CHILDRESS: Uh huh.

BRINSON: So there were people there as young as twelve?

CHILDRESS: Oh sure.

BRINSON: And did you make arrests?

CHILDRESS: I never.

BRINSON: Or were there other police there that day, who made arrests?

CHILDRESS: Not at the two or three times I was at one of those. I talked our way out, you know. [Laughing] Some police are pretty domineering, you know what I mean? They’ve got their job to do, and that’s their job. I just don’t agree with that.

BRINSON: Do you remember after that day, talking to other police colleagues about the demonstrations, and what the attitudes were?

CHILDRESS: Well, you want to hear some curse words? [Laughing] I’m just kidding. I wouldn’t do that. Did actually you know, some of it, those sons-of ….. whatever, and everything like that, what right do they have, or something like that, you know. They were brought up that way, probably. I wasn’t. But, yeah, you know, they weren’t very sympathetic, most of them. The biggest percentage wasn’t, I’d say, or at least fifty or more. And it gradually got different, came about different. In all probability going to school, black and white going to school, is going to make a big difference, for a period of time. And it is. I remember when they used to--say there was a black man and a white lady in a car, they’d arrest the white lady. Or, if it was a white man and a black lady, they’d arrest the black lady, you know, I mean just overt, that was the way it was.

BRINSON: Why is that? I actually have seen photos that made me think that maybe more of the arrests were of women...

CHILDRESS: Oh it was.

BRINSON: Than of men.

CHILDRESS: It was, sure. It was.

BRINSON: Why was that? Was it easier to arrest a woman?

CHILDRESS: It’s the way men feel, you know about--they don’t blame a--prostitution for instance, they don’t blame a man. I don’t know how much this goes this way now, it’s doing different to some extent, but they don’t blame the man, they blame the woman. She’s a prostitute.

BRINSON: Right. But I’m talking about, again, going back to the demonstrations and the sit-ins. I’ve seen photos of arrests, and I’ve wondered why, at least the photos seem to be more of women than of men who were arrested. And I’m wondering.

CHILDRESS: I don’t know that. I didn’t actually see that. I don’t doubt that there would be some of that. The way I’ve seen it is with gambling, prostitution and things like that, where Seventh Street is white prostitutes, Eighth Street is black prostitutes.

BRINSON: You’re talking just generally.

CHILDRESS: Hey, that’s the way it was, we’re like this. I don’t know whether that’s...

BRINSON: Well, during that period of actually several years where there were sit-ins and demonstrations in Louisville, do you recall, was there any evidence that there were members of the Klan or White Citizens Councils that came down to the demonstrations, just to sort of object to what was going on?

CHILDRESS: I don’t know. We’ve always had Klan or some parts of it here. At one time, I have a picture of a motorcycle platoon that escorted a Klansman that was killed on a motorcycle, you know, have the names and everything. And the Klan was here years ago in the Police department. I don’t think it is now at all.

BRINSON: The Klan was actually in the police department?

CHILDRESS: Oh, a part of it, some police officers, yeah.

BRINSON: Well for example, this period, again the early sixties, could you kind of estimate for me of the police force. Are we talking about three or four people you knew, who were affiliated with the Klan or …

CHILDRESS: Oh no. I’m not talking about the sixties.

BRINSON: Or was there fifty percent of the police force?

CHILDRESS: Remember I’m telling you, I’m going back to eighteen oh six, early nineteen hundreds. And I can show you the picture about nineteen twenty-six.

BRINSON: Oh, okay, when the Klan was clearly more present in Kentucky in the nineteen, early twenties.

CHILDRESS: Right. I don’t think it was, at least in my opinion, I don’t think there is any Klan--there may have been some people that thought like the Klan, but didn’t organize or anything.

BRINSON: Not in the sixties though?

CHILDRESS: Not that I know of.

ERNST: ...one story, I don’t know if you even want to put it on tape. But one time there was a big demonstration, and the cops came down to break it up. It involved marbles. You told me something about marbles.

CHILDRESS: About marbles?

ERNST: Yeah, about breaking windows to stop it.

CHILDRESS: Oh, not about marbles. Well, sling-shots, and that’s what I heard. They had Brother or Sister on some of the windows through their neighborhood. Of course, they didn’t want a Brother or Sister to bother them or anything. Well, when you’re having trouble like that, I guess some people get to the point that they’re thinking, how can we do away with this? Well, I think a few windows were broken out and …

BRINSON: This was in the black neighborhood?

CHILDRESS: Yeah, it didn’t last too long before the brothers and sisters, I feel like the windows were broken out, that they got with the others and said, “Look, well this isn’t it.” They didn’t know who did it. Of course, I don’t think, you know--is that what you’re talking about? [Laughing]

ERNST: I think so.

CHILDRESS: Yeah, got some sling-shots, or marbles would have been the best thing to use in a sling-shot, I think. Little stones or marbles. But actually the riot didn’t last that long. There was only two people killed.

BRINSON: Well, let’s go to the riot in nineteen sixty-eight. You started to talk about that and you were recalling where you were.

CHILDRESS: I was in the Fourth District.

BRINSON: Okay.

CHILDRESS: I probably was a--at that time too--I was sent down to the Fourth District. For sure, I can’t remember then whether I was actually in charge of some of the Fourth District or the Narcotics squad. But I was sent down there to see what I could do, you know, because I had been riding down there in the Fourth District for quite a while. I knew a lot of the people. I actually didn’t think the riot was as bad as what a lot of people thought. But then I had been in the war, you know, and that too, you know what I mean. So that might have had something to do with it. But we didn’t, I didn’t have any trouble that amounted to anything, you know. Some of the people that were involved, and came in from out of state, caused some problems. And they were getting and saying to people owning stores down there, that weren’t completely out of commission, they were saying, “Now we’ll protect you for some money, you know.” And I was able to take care of that.

BRINSON: The people out of state were saying that to the store owners?

CHILDRESS: They had people here, that they knew. I’m sure that you know that there’s people that came in from out of state.

BRINSON: Uh hmm, I do.

CHILDRESS: Uh hmm. And that was it. Of course, there wasn’t too much coming out about the pills that were passed out down at the riot. And I’m sure you’ve got pictures of people up on a building or something?

BRINSON: No, I don’t think I’ve seen those. Talk about that, what kind of pills were being passed out?

CHILDRESS: To explain it real easy, it would be the kind to give you energy, Amphetamines, Methamphetamines. A lot of people would call them, as they go back, diet pills, you know: keep you where you can’t sleep at night, probably. But that kind of pills were passed out. I wrote a letter, and I hope it went all the way through; I don’t know whether it did or not. You send it to the next person in charge and they take it on. About it, and thought there might be possibly some trouble down there because of that.

BRINSON: Well and there was some looting, of course.

CHILDRESS: Well sure.

BRINSON: And I’ve also seen photos of overturned cars and one sort of fiery photo. I’m not sure whether it was a telephone booth or a car, but there was apparently some property damage....

CHILDRESS: A lot of property damage.

BRINSON: Of major significance.

CHILDRESS: A lot of it. In fact, I know--have you rode through there?

BRINSON: Well yes, but I didn’t know about the riot at the time I rode through there.

CHILDRESS: Well, there’s still some scars there, from that long ago.

BRINSON: How big of an area did it encompass? You said Twenty-Eighth and Greenwood was where it started?

CHILDRESS: Oh it spread out. I’ve even got in here what the Chief of Police said, how far it was. Offhand I can’t think of it. It’s a fair size area, probably six by six by six squares, a little more. But the big part of it happened right around Twenty-Eighth and Greenwood.

BRINSON: Did Georgia Davis Power’s family have her restaurant there at that time? The Senator’s, I think they called it.

CHILDRESS: Is that the lady that got shot?

BRINSON: No, she got elected to...

CHILDRESS: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know. I really don’t know. I remember who you’re talking about now, but I don’t know. Actually you had a policeman that walked down through there, that was well known and liked. That was his beat, through that area. I think it was one of those things that got out of hand. It was over, a lot of it was over a police officer, probably. And you know about that, if you’ve...

BRINSON: No, I don’t, tell me.

CHILDRESS: Well, it’s in here, and I don’t want to mix up on it too much, but I can pick it out of there for you. They were fussing about this police officer, and how he was a shot or something. I can’t remember.

BRINSON: Was a what?

CHILDRESS: I think he shot or...

BRINSON: Oh he shot.

CHILDRESS: Or trouble with a...I’m not sure, I’d have to look it up, but it is easy to look up, you know what I mean. The idea, I guess my memory is slipping.

BRINSON: And so the community became upset over this situation?

CHILDRESS: He was fired and then put back to duty.

BRINSON: That was after the riot though?

CHILDRESS: I think it was maybe before that he was put back to duty. I’d have to look, like I say, look it up, but that was a bit--that was what I think maybe, some of the people used that thing and you know--they were going to stop the racists. Like this, I think I’ve got one of these things. Here it says, stop the racists. Here’s your Klu Klux Klan. Here’s when King was here. [Showing book ?]

BRINSON: The KKK supports Louie Nunn? Okay.

CHILDRESS: Here’s some of the stuff that was out on the street.

BRINSON: Why don’t you show them some of those and then let me show you a few photographs and see if that actually triggers anything for you. I saw those earlier.

ERNST: Take it home now.

CHILDRESS: I’ve got so much it’s--I haven’t even started this yet. I was going to write it up and I haven’t gotten to start it yet. This is when the black worked the black neighborhoods, yeah.

BRINSON: So this is a photo in nineteen twenty-eight.

CHILDRESS: Here’s when the police cub spit at Cranbar, and then Law says, “peace.” The Chief, he says, “Hit him in the head.” Can’t believe that. Well, that’s all kinds of stuff.

BRINSON: Well let me show you a few photos that were taken in Louisville during the sit-ins and just see if they...

CHILDRESS: Yeah, I remember when Hasenour was having a lot of trouble. I think that’s Covington there.

BRINSON: That’s a photo of four young people who are sitting in, in the street, I guess.

CHILDRESS: That’s nothing unusual. That wasn’t anything unusual for that time. But Hasenour right up the street here.

BRINSON: The restaurant? Is it still open today?

CHILDRESS: Funeral home.

BRINSON: Funeral home, oh. So they were protesting a funeral home?

CHILDRESS: Yeah, there were two of them that did that.

BRINSON: Weren’t there enough black funeral homes are a big business in the black community?

CHILDRESS: Well, this is a white funeral home up here.

BRINSON: Oh it is. Right. But I wonder if some of the black funeral home owners didn’t object to--they probably didn’t want the white funeral homes opened up. Do you think? The blacks, because they would lose business.

CHILDRESS: I really don’t know, hadn’t heard that.

BRINSON: How about that one? Is that?

CHILDRESS: Oh, I’ve seen so much of this, that it’s just things that happened back in those days.

BRINSON: Do you remember ever hearing anything about an Easter Boycott that went on, that the black churches had here in about sixty-two I believe?

CHILDRESS: I don’t recall it.

BRINSON: They made a decision not to buy any new clothes from the department stores for...

CHILDRESS: Oh I heard about that, but I didn’t know--I know that was a boycott, but I didn’t realize it was Easter.

BRINSON: Here’s some people being arrested. How many people could you get in one of those police wagons?

CHILDRESS: Well at the time, I guess it was like a sardine can or something.

BRINSON: Comfortably what would you guess? Ten people?

CHILDRESS: Oh twelve.

BRINSON: Twelve? Okay.

CHILDRESS: Six on each side, and anyone sitting down the middle.

BRINSON: But would you put more than twelve people in there if you needed to?

CHILDRESS: Well, they have done that before, put more than twelve in there. [Laughter]

BRINSON: Okay. I had one gentleman tell me that he was arrested here: he was a teacher in an all black school in sixty. And that it was a black police man who he knew, and knew his family, who arrested him. And they drove him a block down the street and told him to get out and go home, that they weren’t going to take him in and book him.

CHILDRESS: That could happen. It could happen with a white man. It happens both ways.

BRINSON: Do you remember any journalists that were involved during that period? Did they come down to take pictures?

CHILDRESS: Oh sure. They were around to take pictures. They’d get there whenever they could. They’d listen to--at that time it was probably unlawful to listen to--oh here’s a fellow that used to work for me, killed quite a few people. Jesse Taylor. He worked for me, one of the best police men I ever had. Well, I say killed a few people. The thing is, the last two he killed were trying to rob him.

BRINSON: Hmm. Can I see that photo of him?

CHILDRESS: Right there.

BRINSON: So he’s a black policeman, so there’s an example of black police who were making arrests during the demonstrations.

CHILDRESS: He’s an exceptional black police man. I don’t know how many children he had, maybe five or six. He put them all through college. He worked two jobs. He worked for me; and I’d be getting a little peeved sometimes, because I’d be waiting to go home and Jesse wasn’t in yet, you know. He said, “Captain, I’m still working.” [Laughter] And he was. He worked all the time. One of the best policemen, probably the best policeman I ever had working for me. Yeah, ha, ha.

BRINSON: Now, what’s the Blue Boar?

CHILDRESS: Oh, that’s a restaurant, most of them are closed now. There may be one left open in Louisville, I don’t know.

BRINSON: And this is a photo in front of a theater, where Montgomery Cliff and Marilyn Monroe are playing in The Misfits.

CHILDRESS: I’ll be darn. Well, her dresses have gotten expensive, I’ll say that. [Laughter] I’ve seen so much of this, that it’s, you know, it’s pretty much.

BRINSON: Well, here’s another one. Can you tell me what street that is? Do you recognize that at all?

CHILDRESS: I think it is Fourth Street. That is Fourth Street. That’s a--Fourth Street, North of Broadway, North of Fourth and Broadway.

BRINSON: In this photo of police making arrests it looks like there was a little confrontation going on there.

CHILDRESS: It was. A lot of times confrontation going on.

BRINSON: One of the officers has his, what do you call it? A billy club, out.? You think those got used?

CHILDRESS: Oh, the billy clubs got used, I don’t know how much then, but billy clubs were--police would take pride in their billy clubs, and get the hardest wood they could get. [Laughing] Sounds terrible, you know what I mean. That’s way back there in those days, they used to be proud of their clubs. I don’t think they used them that much. I never struck a person with a club while I was on the police department.

BRINSON: And you don’t recall that there was much of that during the early sixties sit-ins?

CHILDRESS: No, not as usual, probably more before that, than there was at that time. Probably before nineteen twenty-nine when Civil Service came in. That was the old paddy wagon.

BRINSON: Do you have anything you want to?

ERNST: Do you remember any anti-war demonstrations going on during the Civil Rights movement?

CHILDRESS: Oh you got something there. Oh no, not that amounted to anything. Here’s something though John, I don’t know whether you’d be interested in that. Somebody said, “Do you know anybody that”--you know he, this fellow, they gave me that. I see him once a month. Well, I could see him anytime, of course and telephone. But he’s a veteran, and just got me a book somewhere, from someplace about that, and knows quite a bit about it, about the war. But I don’t know whether you would even be interested in that or not.

ERNST: Hmm, that’s interesting. What about the Vietnamese community? There was a strong, a pretty big Vietnamese community that came in after the Viet Nam War. I’ve seen a...oh, Courier Journal articles that they even set up a hotline, that Harvey Sloane had set up a hotline. Do you remember anything?

CHILDRESS: It wasn’t where I was. I remember hearing it and then he wanted some people of course, who could speak their language, trying to get some who could communicate in case something happened. But I don’t know how much. It was at one time, quite a bit of problems in the area, probably around the Fifth District, down around Central Park, in through that area. There was quite a few. Maybe they’ve settled somewhere else, quite a few of them have.

ERNST: You don’t remember many anti-war demonstrations do you? Louisville didn’t..

CHILDRESS: You know it wasn’t a big deal. Of course, like I say a lot of us had been in World War II, you know, it wasn’t anything. I was in charge of burying people; I’ve got a picture of the cemeteries and me. In fact I’ve got a bunch of pictures of people that were killed. And this guy wasn’t supposed to--some people’s heads chopped off. He wasn’t supposed to have a camera, but he did have it. And I was stationed with six other fellas, and we were in charge of seeing that the people were buried here and there. I tell you, when a person is missing in action, you know what I mean, or whatever, he’s probably buried somewhere. Like, I remember where we had a bulldozer bulldoze out a big area, and you’d get the natives to work for you, back there it was twenty-six, twenty-eight cents an hour, on Guam, and other islands too. But take and throw the Japanese in there and cover them up: I don’t know them. I told them--they kept me in after the war because I’ve got a pretty good memory about remembering things. I remembered where most of the graves were. But if anybody had asked me, I’d tell them--they didn’t ask me--I wanted to get home. I’ve got pictures of those. Somebody cut off their head, but that’s war. I remember one time we went over on a little island called, Pengyang, looking for, a pilot that was shot down over there. And we got information that he was drug through the village to say, “Hey, this is what we do to the Americans,” the Japs said, a real small island; and so we went over there and looked, and found some people who told us where he was buried. We dug him up, and there he was. He had a wire around his leg, where he was pulled through the village. So things like that, I don’t think most people realize what goes on in a war, you know. You see your buddy killed, that’s pretty rough, or buddies killed. It happens all the time, and people don’t realize that that happened and people change a lot. Some of them shouldn’t be left in society probably, you know what I mean?

BRINSON: Yeah.

ERNST: That’s the truth.

CHILDRESS: But those things really happened.

ERNST: Do you remember many, after the Viet Nam war, do you remember many Viet Nam veterans coming on the Louisville Police force?

CHILDRESS: John, I really don’t know. You know, I mean I would think there wasn’t too many. Probably a number of them came back to their jobs. I don’t know maybe, if I was guessing I would say twenty. And I’m not sure of that. But probably came back to...

ERNST: When you’d said a lot of them after World War II, like yourself.

CHILDRESS: Oh after World War II.

ERNST: But after Viet Nam it’s not the same, that not as many.

CHILDRESS: Not near as many, you know people left the force. And of course, when I say they came on after World War II, they were getting a little bit older, and the younger men were getting drafted, and there wasn’t so many like that. But the average age of a police man, probably about nineteen twenty, was probably forty years old. They didn’t come on until maybe they were over twenty-five anyway, probably thirty-six or forty. And why? Politics. There was one police department ready to come on when another one was going to have to leave because of a different administration. See, so, that happened. Civil Service took care of that, helped that situation in nineteen twenty-nine. Schooling helped a whole lot, in nineteen-nineteen, when we got a professor from Male High School and started educating police better.

YVONNE BALDWIN: One thing I’d like to ask is in the, particularly in the late sixties and early seventies, there was so much confrontation in big cities between protest groups who had begun to target police as pigs. Do you remember that? And what was your reaction to that word?

CHILDRESS: At that time, I’m not sure but you are probably more familiar with it when that was going on. I’m trying to say in the seventies, late seventies. But anyhow, we had people from the FBI come to our department and were saying, “Be awful careful when you get a call, because they may be calling you to kill you.” The FBI came in and told us that, and said it is going on around different parts of the country. Of course, you thought about that. A policeman can’t think too much about that or he would never be a policeman, you know what I mean. But it’s got to enter your mind, so you’re real careful. It was also knowing back in those days, I guess not now, watch so you don’t get sued. But there is another thought here, I wouldn’t want to go around with this thought, but if you kill somebody, they can’t testify against you. That’s true, you know what I mean, that’s true. But there is tremendous amount of change in the police department nowadays. If the Chief of Police was there, when I first came on, he was on, the Chief of Police are fourteen years. The longest we’ve ever had the Chief of Police is fourteen years, named Heustis. If he knew there was females riding in a car by themselves nowadays or males even, he’d turn over in his grave. He thought there was no way that there shouldn’t be two officers in a car. And of course while he was on, there were no females, but things change. And like I said, it wouldn’t surprise me if one day there’s not more females on the force. And I think we don’t need the strength, that was thought that we needed at one time. It was thought that after a while of course, five foot eight or nine, back in the nineteen twenties and thirties, was about--what people are three or four inches taller nowadays, something like that, so that was fairly large.

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

BEGIN TAPE TWO SIDE ONE

CHILDRESS: ...you were supposed to go to these meetings and stuff like that, that kind of stuff.

ERNST: Very smart, Ann Braden’s friends, the one, the minister. What...

BRINSON: George Shuttlesworth?

ERNST: No George, what was his name? [Laughter]

CHILDRESS: Braden used to, most of the police didn’t like the Bradens. And they had a printing press in there, it was probably as big as The Courier Journal had, where they were on Broadway. But they had another place down there, I forget, way down there, close to where Miles Park--they said, “They’re causing a lot of trouble.” When I was working for the Captain at the time. And he said, “They’re causing a lot of trouble, Childress.” He said, “Have you got an old camera?” I said, “Well I’ve got a good camera.” He said, “I don’t care.” He said, “Go down there, or have somebody go down there and take pictures. There’s a lot of automobiles that were from out of state.” They come to the meeting, you know, from out of state, a lot of people from out of state. And he said, “Take down those numbers and act like you’re taking pictures, you know.” I said, “Can you get on private property?” He said, “Well use your own judgment,” you know, like that. Believe me, you have to use a lot of your own judgment on the police department if you want to get things done, you know. You can be on the fence, and it’s how much are you going to do for the public if you really feel like that. But anyhow, I really don’t know why. I know one time she went down in the west end, and there was a lady down there, she’s dead now: but she owned a grocery store down there, and her daughters, they thought the same way and so did her son. But Ann Braden went down there to make a speech. No way in the world she is going to go down in that territory and make a speech. They ran her out.

BRINSON: That was a black neighborhood or a white neighborhood?

CHILDRESS: A white neighborhood.

BRINSON: Oh, okay.

CHILDRESS: And she knew after that, you don’t go down in that neighborhood, because they are going to get you one way or the other. And of course, she accused the police of standing by while, I don’t know that, because I wasn’t there. But she did accuse the police of standing by, while they disrupted her speech.

BRINSON: Well I’m not sure I understand why they wanted you to pretend to take photos, rather than taking photos.

CHILDRESS: Didn’t need them.

BRINSON: Didn’t need them.

CHILDRESS: No, the threat of that sometimes will keep people from coming back.

BRINSON: And what would you do with the license plate numbers?

CHILDRESS: We didn’t do anything with them. What the big think, thought was, with the people down there and a lot of other people, that they were communist. And I think that’s ( ) and people didn’t like communists, communism. So, that’s the big thought about her. I don’t know. I don’t have any idea, you know, what her thoughts, probably she was for the underdog quite a bit. I’d say that. Did she just die?

BRINSON: No, uh huh.

CHILDRESS: And her husband’s been dead a while, hasn’t he?

BRINSON: She’s what, close to, isn’t she close to ninety or so?

ERNST: I don’t know if she’s that old.

BALDWIN: She’s in her eighties anyway.

CHILDRESS: Is she still fairly active?

BRINSON: Yeah.

ERNST: We went down and interviewed her, Yvonne interviewed her. I guess it’s been a month or two months? Longer than that isn’t it? Two or three months. Donny was concerned because it’s down, we were going late at night in the west end. I had never been down there, but I loved her to death, interviewing her, because I admired what she had done.

CHILDRESS: I think she probably came out, straight out with it too.

ERNST: Oh yes.

CHILDRESS: Or fairly straight out. I don’t know, I have to guard. You know, it doesn’t make me any difference, as right as I can be, that’s as right as I’ll be, you know, because that’s just the way it is. It’s too many people that sit back and whatever. They know that’s how I am on the police department anyway. That’s why I never did get up there. [Laughter] You have to be, the furthest you can get in a police department, as far as you can get, is Captain, without being a political appointment. Majors and Colonels and Chiefs is all political appointments.

BRINSON: So, you retired after how many years?

CHILDRESS: Forty-five.

BRINSON: And you were a...

CHILDRESS: Captain.

BRINSON: Captain at that time.

ERNST: Uncle Mort let me ask you a specific question and go back to something; ‘cause I’m not sure if I’m straight on it or not. The one riot you were talking about breaking up, did you tell me that it was the police force that started breaking the windows with the slingshots?

CHILDRESS: Well, I thought it was. I feel it was, you know. I don’t want to drop anybody.

ERNST: Was that the sixty-eight riot that they helped break up or was that another riot?

CHILDRESS: No, I don’t think people know that, or would think that, you know, I don’t think people would--no, I heard that. I wouldn’t let anybody do that, that worked for me like that, but I did hear it, and probably it went on, and probably it had something to do with the riot ending as soon as it did. I know, there’s no doubt in my mind, now I don’t know whether I was lucky, when I was down in there during those riots, because I was right in there. But there’s no doubt in my mind--there was a bunch of people standing off on a corner, no matter what, white or black. And you get out there with a machine gun, even better probably a shotgun--you’ve got attention. You know what I mean? You’ve got, you’ve got--a lot of people call it respect, you’re respected. At times you almost have to have that. A lot of times you would like, if you have some trouble or you want to try and work it out, you want the police out of sight. If you need them then you call them. In all probability you may not need them, probably won’t need them. But at some points, like during the riots, you have to show that you have force there. And that’s what works, is, I guess I have to say respect for the law, you know. And back in the old days, I say old days, I could walk into say a place that was open after hours--and I wasn’t mad--but I could go in there, and put my club on the table, make quite a little noise, ‘I want everybody out of here in the next ten minutes’; and be by myself. And if they’re not out, they’re arrested. They all left. I don’t think you could do that nowadays. I don’t believe, I wouldn’t want to try it nowadays. And white can be terrible, terrible people. I think one of the last homicides I made was a--but it was one of them I made anyway. We got a call to a house, the people that worked for me did, and we were close, the sergeant and myself were close, and so we went by. And there was a kid sitting there, and his wife and his mother. His mother was out of her mind. And I said, “What happened?” And he said, “He shot his dad.” And I said, “Come along, come in the room with me.” If you ask somebody in a hurry, what happened, how come you did that. And he said, “I was sitting over across from him and he was lying on the couch, and this .22 rifle was sitting in the corner.” Now this kid is a Male High student, their house is real nice, got bowling trophies out on the piano or whatever. And he said, “I just pointed at his head and I wondered what it would sound like when the bullet hit his head.” That’s what police go through a lot. And another--and then I had another one that was unusual, was two black men, and I went in there on the scene, and I said, “What happened? You shoot him?” And he said, “Yes.” I said, “Why?” He said, “He was using my wash rag, and I told him not to; and he’s coming out of the bathroom door, so I shot him.”

BRINSON: About a year and a half ago, I rode the Saturday night, this was about ten to seven shift in Richmond, Virginia with a police officer. And that’s when I realized what a really tough job..

CHILDRESS: Oh, it’s terrible.

BRINSON: It is.

CHILDRESS: Terrible, I remember a, two babies, one that wasn’t walking, one that was walking, you know at that age, and both their throats slit. I asked the guy, out in a crowd, and I said, “What you got on, what’s that on you red?” And he said, “Ketchup.” Now that’s terrible, those things happen.

ERNST: I did that same thing, my brother’s on the police force. Same one in Louisville. I tell my students whenever I don’t know why, it will pop up in class at some point.....

END OF INTERVIEW