Oral History Interview with Audrey Grevious

BETSY BRINSON: This is an unrehearsed interview with Audrey Grevious at her home in Lexington, Kentucky. Today is April 13, 1999. The interviewer is Betsy Brinson; thank you, Mrs. Grevious for being willing to do this interview today. I’d like to begin a little bit with some personal background about you like where you were born, your birth date, your growing up, your family, your own education when you were younger.

AUDREY GREVIOUS: I was born in Lexington, Kentucky one of two children. My mother’s name is Martha Ross. I have a brother, Robert, Robert Jefferson who is a councilman of the First District here in Lexington. Received my education here in Lexington, elementary school, Constitution, the old Constitution School on Second Street. I went to Dunbar High.

BRINSON: And what year were you born?

GREVIOUS: I was born in 1930.

BRINSON: And your actual birthdate.

GREVIOUS: September the third

BRINSON: Okay, September 3, 1930. Okay. So you have one brother. Tell me about, how did your parents come to live in Lexington?

GREVIOUS: My mother came to Lexington from Monticello, Kentucky. My father always lived here.

BRINSON: Do you know much about your grandparents?

GREVIOUS: Not, no.

BRINSON: Not on either side to know whether they were from Kentucky or …

GREVIOUS: Yes, they were Kentuckians.

BRINSON: In 1930 when you were born, of course the schools were still segregated, very much segregated.

GREVIOUS: Yes.

BRINSON: Could you talk a little bit about your school, your education?

GREVIOUS: I think that I was very fortunate in that during those times the most brilliant, uhmm, people went into teaching because there was nothing there for them. And I was fortunate enough, I think, to have some of the best all through elementary and senior high. In our elementary school it was obvious that the ladies who were there and most of them were, I think the principal was a male, but all the other teachers were female. That they realized that they needed to prepare us for a changing time even though they had no idea when the change was going to come, if it was going to come. They just knew that it was, and they did everything to make us ready. I often say to people that I can not remember, with the exception of one book, Carson Whitson’s Negro History book of having a new book in all the years that I went to school. We got the books that were discarded by the white schools in the city. Many, many times the most horrible things were written in the books because they pretty much knew where they were going, but our teachers were so sharp that they told us to look beyond that and consider it to the ignorance of the people who happened to be doing it. And we believed in them so much that we did that. Many, many times if it was a real horribly written page, we just tore that out, and everybody shared the one page maybe in somebody’s book that didn’t have all the filth and things written in it. Even with that they made us feel that we were geniuses, until even now I kind of think they brainwashed me so that I’m not quite sure I’m not. I just didn’t do anything with it maybe. In, in producing things that had not been produced before. But seriously they made us feel that we were a special gift to the world and as such that we needed to be prepared by being able to read, count and do whatever else needed to be done. I can not ever remember feeling less than anyone else and it might be because I got this from home. My mother raised us alone, and she went to school but was not a high school graduate but a person who read and seeing her read it made us read. And also she instilled in us that we needed to be the very best that we could. That we needed to have a goal and that that goal would mean that we had to depend on other people to help us get there; which meant we couldn’t waste our time and energy doing stupid things, getting into trouble. The only trouble that I got into was being bossy. You know being the oldest and so I felt like my brother and my cousin had to do whatever I said, whenever I said it.

BRINSON: Were you the oldest?

GREVIOUS: I’m the oldest, yes.

BRINSON: And your brother is how much younger?

GREVIOUS: Two years. But you would think that you know, twenty the way I used to try to boss him all the time. My mother always, and I have never called him anything but Brother. When he, when she brought him home, you know, my mother says that I wanted to know who and what this was and she said, “This is your brother.” And saying “my brother” this is what I thought she meant. I took over as a two-year-old, and so I have always felt like he belonged totally to me.

BRINSON: Did your cousin live with you?

GREVIOUS: Lived across the street. So it was just like we you know, we were in and out of both homes. And I’m sure he stayed over at our house more than he stayed at home because he was an only child, and being raised by his grandmother. So.

BRINSON: What part of Lexington did you grow up in?

GREVIOUS: The East End.

BRINSON: East End. Do you remember your address?

GREVIOUS: Four Twenty-One Race Street. Right across from where Aspendale is built now.

BRINSON: I want to go back to your school. Were there any particular teachers that stand out in your memory?

GREVIOUS: Oh, gosh, yes. I could truthfully say just about every one that I had would stand out for some little special reason. There was a sixth grade teacher, Mrs. Charlotte Page who was very, very strict and, oh, if you couldn’t learn, if you didn’t learn anything with her you just couldn’t learn. It was one of those things. But even from the first grade up to the sixth grade there were those teachers who were just molding us bit by bit, you know, that everyone of them contributed something that no one could take away from us for being in their room at the time. And this was all through, you know, the elementary school. And then when we left the sixth, fifth, sixth grade going into the seventh and eighth, we went to the Dunbar Junior High which was in the same building as the senior high but kind of down a little bit in another part of the building. And there we met, oh, our teachers, Mrs. Claire Winda Taylor, had such an influence on my life that I more or less kind of patterned myself after her in that I tried to walk like her, you know. And whenever you do that you know that that person has made an impression that is unbelievable. Mrs. Ada Taylor who was in the senior high part of the building and we always called her principal number two. She was a math teacher.

BRINSON: What did the first teacher, Mrs. Taylor teach you?

GREVIOUS: She was, uhmm, I’m trying to think, was she math or science? Math, I think she taught math, too. And she was, Mrs. Taylor, the other Taylor, the older Taylor as I say was the unofficial principal of Dunbar High School. If you were doing something in the hall, doing something anywhere all she had to do was just come out to the door and start with that hand up and before that hand got up you stopped whatever you were doing, you know. But she had such an influence on me that my goal was to be a math teacher, the two Taylors really. And when I went away to college I did major in math the first year when I was there. Then we had male teachers who were very influential to us. S. T. Roach taught science.

BRINSON: How do you spell his last name, please?

GREVIOUS: R O A C H, I think. Norman Passmore taught chemistry, biology, no, chemistry, chemistry.

BRINSON: Do you remember anything about the educational background of any of these teachers?

GREVIOUS: Not really, all of them were, you know, college graduates who had gone to black colleges naturally, all over the country, and who were very smart and very knowledgeable. And who could have been anything else if the opportunities had been available for them to be. And as I mentioned before during that time teaching got the cream of the crop. You could just have so many lawyers and so many doctors and things; and you needed a wide range of teachers then. And we were fortunate enough that we got some pretty good ones.

BRINSON: Where was the Dunbar school located here in Lexington?

GREVIOUS: Upper Street where the Dunbar Center and the Recreation Department--Parks and Recreation are located in that building next door to Russell School.

BRINSON: Right, okay. I think I’ve walked by that. In many communities the black and the white schools had unequal programs and I’ve heard from other--in other parts of Kentucky--for example, in eastern Kentucky one woman told me that her school did not have a science program or a lab, that she had go to college for her first lab. In northern Kentucky a woman told me that there was no business program in her school but there was in the white school.

GREVIOUS: Okay, then, in saying that, this is making me realize that Lexington and those of us who lived here in Dunbar School were extra special then because we had all of those things.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: We had those teachers who were prepared in those areas and who did a dynamic job of exposing us to this. Even to the point that in, in some of the classes, if there were a group of us who were top students and we were moving a lot faster than some of the others, and in a class that would be finished, if we wanted to get the advanced course even though it may not be offered, in their spare time those teachers would take us if we had the same period we could go in and do advanced work. Which meant that when we went to college--and this is the thing that stands out with me more than anything else--when I went to college because of being in advanced classes at Dunbar I only had to just sit in the freshmen classes, because we had already had most of that. Which kind of forced that teacher to have to take this group of students who came from Dunbar, and I think about maybe twenty of us ended up there. Had to kind of reorganize their class because I’ll be perfectly frank with you I was really bored in some of the freshman classes because we had those advanced classes in the twelfth grade at Dunbar.

BRINSON: How many were in your graduating class?

GREVIOUS: If you can cut that off I can go and get the thing and… [Sound of tape going off and then back on.] Okay, there were.

BRINSON: There were seventy-two in your class?

GREVIOUS: Seventy-two.

BRINSON: And this was what year?

GREVIOUS: Nineteen forty-eight. We just celebrated our fiftieth anniversary in June of last year.

BRINSON: How, what was the celebration like?

GREVIOUS: Well, we had a night, we celebrated Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And Friday night we had just a little get together at the ( ) Center where we just sat around and talked. Well, we had games planned but we were so glad to see some of them we never did get to the games, we just talked. And then that Saturday morning we went to the Casino, and when we came back we had a banquet dance, and then we went to church that Sunday together. So it was real nice.

BRINSON: In some of the more rural communities in Kentucky where I’ve been interviewing I’ve had people to tell me that once the black school was integrated with the white school that very often there would continue to be almost annual reunions of the entire school of the black school. But these were much smaller schools now, too, and I don’t know how…

GREVIOUS: We still have that here. Douglas School, some of the graduates from Douglas School and students there get together every now and then. And we have a Dunbar Alumni Association that gets together and we do things.

BRINSON: What kinds of things do they do?

GREVIOUS: Oh, just meet, have dances, dinners, talk, just party, party sort of things.

BRINSON: Okay. Are there any projects like raising money for scholarships or…?

GREVIOUS: Yes, now, the Dunbar Association gives scholarships. My class gives a scholarship to a young man who is at UK. We buy his books each year. And I assume that some of the others are doing pretty much the same thing. There are a number of classes that are organized. A number of the classes are organized privately.

BRINSON: And again in many communities the black school functioned not only as the school but as the community center for the black community. And generally there was a fairly active PTA. How would you describe your schools in Lexington in those ways? Did the schools become a community center?

GREVIOUS: I would think that before the integration that the schools probably were used that way. I know that a number of the parents were involved in the PTAs. I also know that many others did not become involved with the PTAs during, with integration. And I think that part of that came from not feeling welcomed. I remember, I taught at Maxwell after I left Kentucky Village and we’ll talk about that later. That I was concerned because there were no black parents involved in the PTA, and I wanted to know if they had been extended an invitation to so do. And why they had not used those presidents and vice-presidents from those other schools when they came into this school as leaders as well. You know you’re coming in, in small numbers so if you have an election naturally the ones who were, it should have been, they should have had enough insight to have said, okay, the president of this school, I’d like for them to be a vice-president, a chairman of something. And we had a principal there and president of the PTA who was sharp enough to realize that this might be what it was and so they in turn did do this. Now whether the other schools all over the city did that, I do not know; don’t feel like they did, because I remember hearing a number of them saying they weren’t even going to the meetings because they weren’t even talking to them. They were not involved with whatever. They had their own plan, which was an unfortunate thing to have happened during that time, because it was really the ideal time to bring everybody together for oneness. And to me this was not, this was not done. But most of the black schools did have very active PTAs.

BRINSON: I also understand that in many school systems in Kentucky the black teachers were paid less than the white teachers.

GREVIOUS: Oh, I’m sure. I’m sure that this is a reality.

BRINSON: Here in Lexington, too.

GREVIOUS: Yes. Because I was, when I got out of school I was really shocked to discover what they were being paid. As I said, I went to school in `48 right after afterwards and I only went one year. My mother was working three jobs trying to keep me in school and I’m down there playing cards.

BRINSON: And where did you go?

GREVIOUS: Kentucky State.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: And I worked during the summer and I decided well, I could just stay here, you know. When I’d come home she was worn out from working at least three jobs trying to keep me down there, while as I said, the classes were so easy for me that I, sometimes I went and I’d go take a test and pass the test, that was it. And so, I decided that I was going to work. And came out and stayed out for seven years. And now my brother had married. He had been in the service and he had married, and they came back to Lexington and decided that they were going to school. And the more I thought about it, I thought, well, I’m wasting my time, why don’t I go back, too. And so I went back and I finished three years in two and a half. And…

BRINSON: So you would have been about how old when you graduated?

GREVIOUS: I was, how old was I?

BRINSON: In your late twenties?

GREVIOUS: Yeah, twenty-seven because I finished in `57.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: Hum-hum, and…

BRINSON: What did you major in?

GREVIOUS: When I went back I majored in elementary instead of math. I hadn’t looked at a math book for seven years and I thought that I, oooh, I would not be able to remember all of that but once I got in school I did. But I was glad that I went on in to elementary anyway because I liked it.

BRINSON: So what happened when you graduated college? What did you do then?

GREVIOUS: I had an opportunity to teach to at the old Constitution School and at the same time I had a friend here, Dr. Marvel who was a pharmacist. Had, long time ago he used to have a pharmacy on Georgetown Street. Was involved in some activities at Kentucky Village and she talked to me--and she said, “Well, I think one time when I finally went”--let me back up. When I went to school, it’s hard. I’m working three jobs. None of them were that hard but I’m still working them anyway while I’m going to school. And I remember praying one time, you know, give me a chance to just finish this goal and I liked to work with problem children. And she heard me say this. And she informed me that there was an opening for a teacher at Kentucky Village, and made arrangements for me to go out and talk to them. And I talked to them and I kind of liked what I saw, and it was separate at the time, too, like everything else around here. And they hired me to start in September. So that meant I had to resign the position that I had taken at Constitution because in the back of my mind I’m remembering the promise that I had made, you know, when things were getting pretty tough, you know. I’m tired, don’t want to study but I’m having to do this. And so I worked there for fifteen years. I taught for seven and I was principal for eight.

BRINSON: Okay. Where is Kentucky Village?

GREVIOUS: Kentucky Village is where Blackburn is now. It was a reformatory for delinquent boys and girls from all over the state.

BRINSON: Okay, okay. All ages?

GREVIOUS: All ages, all ages.

BRINSON: And was it a new facility at the time?

GREVIOUS: No, no, it’s been there for years. It used to be called Greendale which was the reformatory, and I remember horrible things happening at Greendale. And I think I mentioned to you how bossy I was when I was coming up and when I got completely out of control my mother would always say, “Okay, well, I’ll just send you to Greendale”. And that straightened me up because we had two young boys in our neighborhood who had been out there and they would come back with marks on their legs where they had been chained. And of course, naturally, we did not want to do that. Well, when I went out there I discovered that things had really changed over the years. So it was nothing like what I remember as a young person in the thirties. And I taught only the girls at the time and the boys who were working at a low level. And it was more like an ungraded school. You kind of took them where they were, and many of them were maybe in eighth grade but could barely read second, third grade level so we worked on that. And liked it quite a bit.

BRINSON: I’m trying to get a sense of how big the program was.

GREVIOUS: There?

BRINSON: Yeah.

GREVIOUS: It was large [laughing] in that, oh, well, they had the large school over there but I was in a smaller school, even during this time they were kept separate. There was a little two-room building over there where I was, and then there was a male that taught in the basement of the dormitory where the black boys lived.

BRINSON: So the facility itself actually had both black and white young people there.

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm, yes.

BRINSON: But they kept it segregated.

GREVIOUS: Segregated, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: The schoolroom as well as the dorm?

GREVIOUS: Oh, the dormitories were…

BRINSON: Dining hall?

GREVIOUS: Everything, everything.

BRINSON: Everything.

GREVIOUS: Everything was segregated during that time. Even the eating facilities, even the boys and girls did not eat together. And I thought nothing, I knew they were separate but I did not realize that the dining room for the white workers was different, because we were eating over there with our children. It was neat as could be, you know, and the food was just fabulous. It was all the same food. But just, you know, served separately. And when I did discover that they had this fantastic dining room where all the other workers were. I guess I had been there, uhmm, maybe six months, and then I decided, well, oh, we couldn’t have this so I integrated the dining room.

BRINSON: And this would have been about what year?

GREVIOUS: This was in nineteen fifty-seven and eight. Uh-hmm.

BRINSON: And how did you do that?

GREVIOUS: I walked in and took a seat and destroyed the lunchtime for everybody even those who supposedly were friendly, you know, and glad that you are here and all that. All right, glad you are here as long as you stay in your place; and I decided that my place was going to be in the dining room. And there was a male teacher from Paris, Charles Buckner who I told that I was going to do this. And he said, “Well, I’m not going to let you do it by yourself.” And so he went in, you know, with me. And a whole lot of people threw their food in the trashcan, and on the floor, and everything else and marched on out but I was there to stay.

BRINSON: And did they say anything to you about that? Were there any repercussions?

GREVIOUS: No there were not any. They thought that there were going to be some, you know, that--they reported it, naturally, to the superintendent--and this, at the time I had, I had become president of the local NAACP; this is what it was. And I thought, how can I talk about segregation, breaking down segregation elsewhere and I’m working and eating in the same sort of situation? And so I had talked to the superintendent and told him that, you know, when we had a chance we needed to talk about some other things. And we had more or less set up a meeting whenever both of us…

END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE

BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE

GREVIOUS: …went stomping out of the cafeteria. Then I decided, well, maybe we better meet, you know, right away because I’m coming in here every day. I mean I knew this, and so we did, you know, plan a time for meeting. And when, at the same time we had begun some activities, so it must have been fifty-eight and fifty-nine, instead of fifty-seven and fifty-eight. We had begun some activities here in Lexington to break down the segregation.

BRINSON: Through the NAACP?

GREVIOUS: Through the NAACP and CORE.

BRINSON: Right. I understand that the NAACP here goes back to the forties?

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm.

BRINSON: At what point did you become involved with that?

GREVIOUS: I became involved with them around `57, `58, somewhere along in there.

BRINSON: And what prompted you to?

GREVIOUS: I, I had gone to--oh, had I gone to New York? I had gone some place in the north and had just seen some changes that we had not paid that much attention to it because we had all grown up with it. And it was no big deal because we had our own restaurants. We had our neighborhood groceries that were pretty good, pretty nice. The people were fantastic. It was just separate. The drugstore was in our community. Everything was just kind of compact. We knew one another and could care less about, you know, the other people. And we did not have serious problems of a bus, bussing because we caught the bus at on Chestnut Street and came all the way out this way, oh, and we were mostly the ones on the bus so there was no…

BRINSON: So where you had to sit was not an issue.

GREVIOUS: Well, it was but we didn’t pay that much attention to it because when you went to work you didn’t want to go to work anyway, so it didn’t make any difference where you were sitting. Basically it did, but you just did it and thought, didn’t think too much, you know, about it. If the bus was not crowded you sat wherever there was a seat. They may stand there and glare at you ,but a lot of times they were outnumbered on the bus, and it wouldn’t have been advisable to have made a big production out of it, I don’t think. And I have over the years tried to really remember anything about the bus. I do remember going to the back of the bus. I don’t recall anyone forcing me to go. It might have been just because my friends were back there or someone I knew. I really, you know, and I’ve spent quite a bit of time trying to remember, and it could be that it was just something that I blocked out and put on the back burner, and I refuse to, you know, let it come forth. And I do remember being on the back, you know, but I also remember sitting up front, too. Now how or why this happened I’m not quite sure, and I’ve said that we needed to talk about that to see if there were any incidences that need to be recalled that were not pleasant you know, concerning this. But as I said, except coming from, going to work out in the other subdivisions most of the time when we were on the bus it was to make this circle of coming from Chestnut Street to Georgetown and back, you know, that way.

BRINSON: When you were growing up do you recall any place that you thought you might have liked to go that you couldn’t because of your color, for example, an amusement park or a movie or…

GREVIOUS: Well, the movies, we could go to the movies but we went in the back door. Now Ben Sny--Ben Snyder’s, Ben Ali was on Main Street, but our entrance was on Short Street upstairs.

BRINSON: Where on Short Street?

GREVIOUS: Where they, where they are building, I’m kind of, I’m trying to describe where it would be. Almost in front, oh, the jail is not there anymore. It was in front of where the old jail used to be, that was where we went into the Ben Ali Theater, up a whole lot of steps, just made around and around and around until we finally got up in the balcony. And…

BRINSON: Did you get charged the same admission price as a white person?

GREVIOUS: I assume so cause I don’t know what they were paying.

BRINSON: So there was a separate ticket window?

GREVIOUS: Oh, yeah, we sold, the tickets were sold, we didn’t get in the front at all. Uhmm, the same, we couldn’t go to the Strand at all. And the Kentucky, we couldn’t go to the Kentucky; the State, we could go to the State and there was an upstairs, a little piece from there that we went upstairs and sit in the balcony. And then they had the Opera House where it is now and we could go up the steps there. So we had three, three movies that we could go to. And AdeMeare, did we go to the AdeMeare? They had an AdeMeare here. Yeah I think…

BRINSON: Spell that for me, please, AdeMeare.

GREVIOUS: I’m trying to think how did they spell that? A D E, then a capital M E A R E, something like that, I’m not quite sure. It’s been so long that I…

BRINSON: Was that a theatre, movie theatre?

GREVIOUS: It was a theatre, too, but didn’t too many people go to the AdeMeare. We didn’t like the AdeMeare very much.

BRINSON: What about department stores?

GREVIOUS: The department stores you could go into some of them and some you could not go into. Some you did not even dare step into, period; I don’t care if you had a million dollars to spend. They did not want your million dollars.

BRINSON: But the department stores you could go into were there different practices for white and black customers, for example, could you go into them and try on hats, other clothing, shoes?

GREVIOUS: You could try on clothing. Hats, even though I’m a hat nut now, I wasn’t during those days. Uhmm, I hadn’t thought about that; I don’t remember. I’ll have to check on that and see.

BRINSON: I don’t know about Lexington but stores in some other communities they would say, “No, you have to buy that but you can’t try it on”.

GREVIOUS: But you can’t try it on. Uh-hmm, we were able to try on the clothes because we had such, Main Street was loaded with stores. I mean from one end to the other end of all price ranges.

BRINSON: Were they owned mostly by whites?

GREVIOUS: They were all owned by white, yeah, there were no black stores period, you know, at all and very few people who worked. You had your elevator operators who were black and some maids, and that was about it.

BRINSON: And I remember reading that it was 1961 when the bus system actually hired the first black drivers. Do you remember that at all?

GREVIOUS: I remember that but I can not remember the date and if somebody has said `61 that’s probably when it was. I know it was during the Movement time that they made the change, but before then they did not have any.

BRINSON: Okay. Let me go back to the NAACP when you became active with them. Do you have any recollection of how big the membership was at that point? What some of the projects, the issues were?

GREVIOUS: When I first became actively involved I would say we had anywhere between twenty and thirty people.

BRINSON: Okay. Now were those members or were those people who came to meetings?

GREVIOUS: These were [pause] members, members.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: And I would say maybe ten came. Well, maybe I’m not giving them a large enough number, because we did have paying people who paid the little dues, you know, membership thing to say they belong but they were not active. So in all fairness I guess the number would be a little larger than thirty. But there were not a whole lot of them at the time. And they were not actively involved in anything serious. Oh, with the change and we decided our first, the job situation was to be our first project. And we talked about it, uhmm, from September to about October because it was in `57 when I finished school that I became president of NAACP. I had joined and was kind of secretary for the year before when I started going back to school in `55 I started getting involved with them; had not before then. I knew they existed but had not gotten involved in a way.

BRINSON: Were you involved with the chapter up in Frankfort?

GREVIOUS: No.

BRINSON: No. So it was the Lexington chapter.

GREVIOUS: The Lexington chapter, Lexington chapter.

BRINSON: Let me ask you a few things, the membership money, did you share that with the national office, is that the way that worked to help pay for some of the national programs?

GREVIOUS: Talking about such a long, long time ago and I’m sure because most organizations you do have, where part of your dues go to subsidize them. So I’m sure that we did. What percentage we had to do I can’t say, I don’t really remember.

BRINSON: Of the people that were active would you say there were more women than men, more men than women?

GREVIOUS: At the time that I became involved with them there were more men involved. A Reverend Powell was the President, had been the president for a good little while. And I had the opportunity to meet him, and kind of liked what I saw in him and this is one reason I became involved, you know. Because I’m seeing it where a change needed to be made and what better way to do it than to get involved in an organization that was doing it. And as I said then I was elected pres--not, I’m sorry, secretary of it, and most of the people who were actively involved were, oh, older, professional kind of men, uhmm, who were, you know, with Datsun and all of that group who were actively involved as members. But they did not have a project that they were really working on. And after a year of working with them, of working with the meetings and talking and nothing, you know, and I started saying, “You know, there is room for a whole lot of improvement. Oh, I have two nephews”--‘cause my nephews had been born during the time--“And things need to change. I don’t want them to go through what I went through,” and this is the sort of thing that I was repeatedly saying. It was the movement all over the country, you know, and I kept saying we need to get involved and oh, I’m trying to think what their names were. Isn’t that, it may come to me?

BRINSON: Did the membership mix change at some point? Did more women become involved?

GREVIOUS: Yes, yes.

BRINSON: Why do you think that was?

GREVIOUS: Oh, well, when I became president I recruited them.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: Yes.

BRINSON: And how did you do that? [Laughter]

GREVIOUS: Well, as you can tell I can talk a lot. [Laughter] And I don’t mind setting an example. I won’t ask you to do anything that I’m not willing to do myself. And began to talk about some of the things that were going on. Many of the people who got involved had just had children, you know. So I could always say, now, remember what a hard time we had even though at that time we didn’t think we had. How different it was, things are going to change. We want our children to be ready. And this is the sort of thing that started bringing women in and also younger men. And I would say…

BRINSON: Where would you say this? Did you go to churches?

GREVIOUS: Just talking. I just played cards and we’d talk and get in groups, just wherever anybody would let me open my mouth I would, you know, say this. And of course, we advertised the meetings asking for people to come to the meetings. And we did this, you know, through the churches and got some cooperation, but not a whole lot of cooperation.

BRINSON: From the churches?

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: And, ah…

BRINSON: Why do you think that was?

GREVIOUS: I don’t know, which was always strange. And as we get into the Civil Rights Movement we will talk about their involvement you know and, that which was so unique and different from others, because usually the churches were the ones who were the leaders, but here in Lexington that was not the case. But we began to talk and some of the younger mothers began to get involved and younger women and of course, naturally some of the middle aged ones were still involved. And I think what they said to me was that they were aware that we needed the change, they were waiting for the change and they needed somebody to say, “Okay, it’s time”. I opened my mouth and said, “It’s time.” And as a result they began to, you know, come in because I would think that before the--when the Movement got started and that we must to have had, oh, I’d say between a hundred and fifty and two hundred people who were involved.

BRINSON: In the NAACP chapter.

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Wow, that’s a good size. Do you know Ms. Grevious are there any records of the local NAACP chapter? Some of the flyers that you did, if you took any minutes of meetings.

GREVIOUS: I’m sure, and I’m almost sure that in my garage in that room that has all the junk stuff--and I’ve said time and time again I’m going to go up there and find some of it. I’m sure that somewhere there would be some of it but where I really don’t know. Oh, I was thinking the same thing that we, since we did not get coverage that somebody had--or should have documentation of what was done. And I know it was some place, but after I stopped working with them, and got involved in, you know, some other things and really needed to take a rest from the whole thing, it went into another--well, it was dormant for a little while. And what happened to all that information I do not know, because many of the older ones who were there still were actively involved and they may have had some paper you know. I think you don’t think that you ever need it [laughing], and so you look and you clean up stuff and think, oh, this is old stuff. So it goes and you throw valuable information …

BRINSON: And we don’t need to do this on tape but I do want to talk with you more about that because it’s important that we put those kinds of records in a place where they are taken care of and they are there for research.

GREVIOUS: Well, maybe, when you all get ready for this, and I will have gone out there and cleaned out that garage I may run across some things.

BRINSON: That would be great.

GREVIOUS: I’m sure there are some boxes on top of the shelves so just kind of keep in touch with me in three or four, no, six or seven months and see if I’ve cleaned out all that because I know there are some materials some place.

BRINSON: Okay. Let me go back to when because it occurs to me that you were teaching, you were active in the NAACP, and there was a lot beginning to happen. You were recruiting new members. Did you have family responsibilities at this time?

GREVIOUS: Yes, I had, had I married then? Let’s see I married again in sixty. In the sixties I did when we began to get involved in the sit-ins and the things; I had married during that time. And as I say I was still teaching. We decided that our first project for community involvement was to get clerks in the neighborhood groceries. And the NAACP took that on as, as our main, main project and the young lady who became president of CORE was also a member of the NAACP, so she and I kind of worked together.

BRINSON: And that would have been?

GREVIOUS: That was Julia Lewis who had just died not too long ago. Did you get a chance to talk to her?

BRINSON: No, I didn’t.

GREVIOUS: Unfortunately. But anyway she and I decided we were going to attack these and we chose MRS here the grocery in front of Shelley Court. Then we had Cottrell’s Grocery that was on Third Street, that was behind Aspendale. And what was the other one? One on Chestnut and Fifth Street those were the three target groceries because they had to depend totally on the black population for their existence. And we sat here in the middle of this floor and made posters, and you know, things that night and it rained the Saturday that we were going to do this. And so, I said, “Well, let’s just cancel it,” and so we started calling some of the people who were planning on walking the picket. They said, “No”, said, “We are all ready for it. Can’t we put some paper or something over the signs and try to save them?” I said, “If you’re willing to march in the rain,” I said, “I’m willing to march in the rain”. So our first day of picketing was in a hard, hard rain. But everybody stayed all day long. When it was their time to relieve they showed up, you know, and we did this. And took quite a, longer than I would have thought that it would take for us to get them to change.

BRINSON: How long do you think?

GREVIOUS: Well, we had to do that for about three, three Saturdays. But one reason that we did, because the people still went in, crossed our picket lines. And this was when the churches come in that bothered us quite a bit in that, oh, some of the ministers came to the groceries and told the owners that they would put a stop to that. That those people didn’t have any business being out in front of their store, you know, that sort of thing. And because when we came that Saturday when it was raining, the owner of Cottrell’s ran out, “Oh, you’re not suppose to be here. You’re not suppose to be here”. I said, “What do you mean we’re not suppose to be here? We’re on the sidewalk.” “But Reverend Jackson told us that he would take care of it.” I said, “He doesn’t even belong to our group so he can’t make those decisions for us.” And so that’s how we found out that they were going behind our backs, you know, doing this. It disturbed quite a few of them. But anyway we were successful in that. Then we chose to choose the downtown stores.

BRINSON: Let me ask you a few specifics about that. How many people do you think came out to picket?

GREVIOUS: Well, we, we started early that morning when the grocery opened at eight or nine o’clock, and were there until the grocery closed at nine or ten. And we just took turns, two and three and four hours. So I would say that we had about thirty people who were involved, thirty or more, who were involved in carrying the picket signs.

BRINSON: And they were mostly members of the NAACP?

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm, uh-hmmm, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Okay. Were they young, old men, women?

GREVIOUS: Combination of all. We did not use any children on this particular one.

BRINSON: Okay and why was that?

GREVIOUS: Well, we didn’t really have a group of children at that time to--I say officially--because some people had their children with them and they just walked with them, but they were not carrying a picket sign. We incorporated them later. But this was and there were men and women both involved in this, older ones and young ones. Just really a combination, it was such a display of cooperation that it made those of us who were in leadership positions want to do even more. Because when you think of people giving up their Saturday, for some the only day that they have off to do this it meant quite a bit. One thing that the stores wanted us to do was to send them somebody and we refused to do that.

BRINSON: Talk about that a little bit.

GREVIOUS: Well, my, my thinking of that and this is the way I personally felt. That if we sent them someone and they hired them and they didn’t work out…

BRINSON: I see, so they wanted you to refer people that they could hire.

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm, and we said, no, uh-huh, no. You open it up and then whoever comes in, you decide who’s going to… So we refused to do that. Matter of fact we refused to do that on all of the jobs when we were seeking jobs for that same reason. Because then you have a good, I kind of put it in the same thing that I did with Coach Rupp when he was forced to have a black player. He knew that young man was the type of young man that he was.

BRINSON: Now I don’t know any of this history but I know that Coach Rupp was the basketball player at the University of Kentucky.

GREVIOUS: With the coach, uh-hmm, and he was told that he had to hire some and he was a fairly good player but he was a hoodlum. And he had to have known this because he had gotten in trouble in his hometown. So I’ve always felt that he chose him to say, see this is the reason I didn’t want any black players. And so keeping that in mind was the reason that we kept saying, “No, we’re not going to send you anyone.” You will advertise just like you do everybody else. Just let them know that they, well we did. We sent some anyway but not officially. We had some people to go in but it wasn’t sanctioned that this is the one that we want you to have. You interview them and if you hire them this is fine. We just let the word be out that the jobs were available.

BRINSON: In addition to the picketing did you initiate contact with the storeowner or personnel?

GREVIOUS: Yes, we had talked to them before we did any picketing. Yeah, we went in and asked if they would hire. And many of them said, “Well, we hire them.” And of course, yes, they hired them to clean the floors and had one, I think Cottrell had a young man who was working at the, the vegetable and fruit counter, which was fine, and we acknowledge this. This is fine. But we want somebody to be on that cash, be a cashier as well, you know. And this is not what they wanted to do and…

BRINSON: Did the police come?

GREVIOUS: The police did not come to, oh, we saw them go past. We were fortunate here in Lexington. Chief Hale was the police chief at the time. And we met with him and talked to him about what we were going to do, and that we were going to try to remain as peaceful as possible. That we were not going into it to start any riots or anything. And that we wanted to see, you know, how we could work together. And after we had talked for a long, long time and just went over a whole lot of things that could happen and had happened in other places and this sort of thing, he agreed with us that they would not arrest anyone unless the owner of the building took out a warrant for our arrest. That it would not be an automatic thing that the police would come and see us and pick us all up and go. And this was fantastic, unique, unheard of and everything else but he wanted to keep Lexington as calm as possible. He was aware talking to the two of us because at this time CORE also had organized and as I told you Julia was part of that. And I was a member of CORE and she was a member of the NAACP so we kind of bonded, you know, together for this. The only difference between the two organizations the CORE had more white members than the NAACP had. And …

BRINSON: But the NAACP did have white members?

GREVIOUS: Oh, we had one or two inactive whites who were there. But anyway that was the agreement that he was not going to arrest us.

BRINSON: Did you get any press publicity?

GREVIOUS: Only, the only time we got press publicity was when we were standing in front of the Strand Theater in front of the window so that other customers could not by a ticket…

END OF SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE

BEGIN SIDE ONE, TAPE TWO

GREVIOUS: And they came down and arrested us, took us all in the wagon downtown. And that was the most horrifying experience that you can imagine being put in the back of that big wagon going to jail for really not doing anything but…

BRINSON: Now let me back up here because.

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm, okay.

BRINSON: So this was a second action from the grocery store clerks. How did that come to the point of deciding to challenge the Strand?

GREVIOUS: Oh, well, we challenged the grocery stores, the theaters, jobs for the downtown, from the downtown stores, uhmm, the restaurants all along Main Street and the side streets. All of these were just a lot of things going on at the same time. Oh, because we began to get more people involved who wanted to do things and so we used, we wanted to have something for everybody to do if they wanted to do it. We didn’t want to lose anyone because we already had somebody in that job. So at one time we had about three things going. And the theater was the one time that we were arrested.

BRINSON: And that’s when the publicity came from your arrest.

GREVIOUS: That was when we got the publicity the next day. Oh, we went, we went down and the young man behind the counter was—cage--was taking the information. And so when he got to me, he made the biggest mistake he had ever made. Oh, he made the remark about, well you know--let me see--I don’t exact--I used to remember the exact words but implied. I don’t remember the exact words now. That you would have, that everybody would have to take a bath. Well, I was the worst person to have said that to. And I wanted to know, “What do you mean?” And I said, “I’m due one phone call, aren’t I?” And he says, “Yes.” I said, “I want to make my phone call.” And I called Chief Hale. And I told him, you know, what had happened that we had been arrested. And he says, “Well, I’m sure that they must have had a warrant for your arrest or they wouldn’t be…” And I said, “Well, I’m not calling you about that. That’s okay.” I said, “But I want to call you about the young man behind the desk something he said.” And when I told him, you could almost hear him scream, “He said what?” And I repeated it, you know, again. He said, “I’d like to speak to him.” I don’t know what he was saying to him but he turned as red as fifteen beets. You could have eaten him he was just that red, juicy red. “I was just joking,” he was saying. And I could imagine him telling him that that was nothing to joke about, that’s not the way you joke, you know. “I’m sorry. I’ll apologize.” And this is, I’m hearing him on this end. I’m not hearing what Chief Hale is saying but I’m hearing how he is responding to him. And so…

BRINSON: How many of you do you think were arrested?

GREVIOUS: There were six or eight. Not quite sure the number but I know six or eight of us.

BRINSON: And then there was a court hearing?

GREVIOUS: Yes, but we didn’t have to go to court because before they called it was dismissed. But we were there for our court, I mean, we went home. We didn’t have to go in the cells but this was what he was implying that, you know, we all were going to have to go in the cells.

BRINSON: What were you charged with?

GREVIOUS: Oh.

BRINSON: Trespassing.

GREVIOUS: Trespassing, uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: And they dismissed the charges though, so.

GREVIOUS: We didn’t even have to appear. We had a lawyer there and we were all there but we never even got in the courtroom.

BRINSON: Was Julia Lewis arrested?

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm.

BRINSON: She was.

GREVIOUS: Yeah, she was there. She and I were always together.

BRINSON: Okay. I want to ask you about her since I’m not able to interview her. Can you tell me a little bit about who she was just as a person?

GREVIOUS: A fantastic young woman.

BRINSON: Were you about the same age?

GREVIOUS: I’m a little older than she, ‘cause she, I would think Julia may be three to five years younger than I. Interested in change, uhmm, a dynamic speaker, went out of her way to do whatever needed to be done. There was nothing that you could ask of her that she did not do. I felt as the first president of CORE that she was very dynamic.

BRINSON: Had she grown up in Lexington?

GREVIOUS: Yes. She’s a Lexingtonian too. She lived south end of town on Robinson Street over in that area.

BRINSON: Did you know her before you got involved together?

GREVIOUS: Yes. She was in school but lower down as I said much younger than I. So I knew of her, you know, in a way. She was a nurse. At the time she was a nurse at Eastern State Hospital. Which also meant that both of us, if they pushed anything, we could have easily lost both jobs working for the state because both of us basically were, which would have been a disaster for them. That would have been the worst thing that they could have really done. But they didn’t, they were sharp enough--we weren’t doing it on their time. Their name was not put on any poster or anything so there was no reason for them to question. And I’ll talk to you about that later when something at the Village that happened. But she was good. She had more patience with the young people than I did. I’m kind of a strict person for doing things right. I have no room for the other, never have and I guess I never will now, I know. Oh, and there were just some things that the young people did that I just had to kind of put my foot down, you know.

BRINSON: Do you remember any specific examples and what do you mean by young people, what age?

GREVIOUS: They were teenagers. I’d say sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, you know. And some of them, you know, naturally are grown now but they were instrumental in doing quite a bit of the sit-ins in the restaurants and things. My thing was, you know, you still could do it and be quiet, ladylike, refined, you know this sort of thing, and young people are just not that.

BRINSON: Right, right.

GREVIOUS: But anyway, she was able to work with the young people both the CORE young people and the NAACP group even though I still kept my finger on the NAACP youth group quite a bit. But Julia’s concern always was for betterment and change and seeing that things were going to be much easier and much better for the new generation. One thing that really got me involved, and I kind of got her involved for this as well--I went to--she and I went to Columbus, Ohio to a NAACP convention. She was vice-president of NAACP when I was president, one of the vice-presidents. And I was, you know, the same thing with CORE. And they could not understand how the two organizations were working so closely together here in Lexington because it was, they were in competition, seemingly, which wasn’t really true. They were just trying to reach the same goal in a different way.

BRINSON: Different methods.

GREVIOUS: And it really bothered them, some of the people at the NAACP, that we were working so closely together. And it amused us and we made it even worse.

BRINSON: People who were in, at the Ohio convention it bothered?

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm, uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: So other chapters.

GREVIOUS: Yes. They just couldn’t imagine why, you know. And my answer was to get something done. And we did get something done here in Lexington.

BRINSON: Why do you think that worked, to work together collaboratively here but that maybe it didn’t…?

GREVIOUS: Because of the two of us, because of the two of us that we were able to work together. We were not in competition with one another. As a matter of fact, you know, like I said she was with the NAACP before CORE even came into existence here. When Farmer came here to organize he stayed here at my home, oh, and so it was just a twosome that worked is really what it amounted to. That we complimented one another I guess is the best way to describe the relationship between the two of us. That we really, we really did. There wasn’t anything that I could ask her to do that she would not do and the same thing was with me, and we could have cared less as to who got credit for it. All we wanted was for it to be done. And I think this is what really shocked everybody that nobody was looking for a halo or anything. And this is the thing that bothered us with the churches and the ministers here in Lexington. Because with the exception of Reverend Jones at Pleasant Green, no other minister was directly involved with the movement period. I hear it now, of what they did, and she and I used to get--when we’d read it in the paper or hear it--we’d get on the phone, “Were we asleep when they were doing that?” Because we know that they were not doing anything. But it’s, it’s a prestige now to say that you were involved with the Civil Rights Movement. And I hear it all the time, and I don’t remember any of these people. Because the ones who were involved that made the Lexington thing work were not your--the teachers were not involved. The ministers were not involved. A few professional people were involved, but they were involved because they owned their own business and they did not have to answer. Most of our people were people who were maids, mothers and things who were maids. People who worked for other people, and our thing was that you don’t lose your job to do this. We can find something else for you to do. And many of them had been threatened that if--some of the maids were threatened--if they heard of them that they needn’t bother to come back to work, you know, that day. And they would say, “I won’t go to work then because I’m going to be involved.” But they didn’t lose their job because the person that was doing all this talking thought that they could threaten to get them to stop but it didn’t work. But these are the people, the grassroots people are the ones who really worked here in the Movement here in Lexington not your professionals.

BRINSON: I have read in other places about the fact that the teachers were not involved and one of the theories that is out there is they feared losing their jobs.

GREVIOUS: They were told that they were going to lose their jobs especially here in Lexington.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: Because I was concerned with them not being involved and even though I did not work in the system I was a teacher, you know, at the Village. Even to the point when, when we picketing MRS up here that Saturday that Monday, you know, I told you I had this meeting planned and oh, he had, we had met; and I had told him what was, you know, going on, and his friend owned MRS. And his friend had said something to him about it. I said, “I didn’t have a sign that said Kentucky Village anywhere out there, and what I do in my spare time you or nobody else has anything to do with.” He said, “Oh, I’m not talking about that. I would think less of you if you said, “Well, in order to keep my job I’m going to stop doing it.” I said, “Well, I couldn’t ask anybody else to do something that I’m not willing to do.” And he said, “You continue to do what is what.” And he knew that there was segregation countrywide and all, but had not really been directly involved in it one way or the other. It happened and you know, so. And so I had to share with him, you know, some things of how as a race of people we had more accidents on the road because we couldn’t stop at the motels. We had to keep on driving. And he, you know, he was shocked. He says, “What do you mean?” And I had to go ahead and tell him; and I said, “Yes, some places in some of the communities coming across the country, they would open their homes up to people for overnight but for us to be able to stop at a motel and just rest, no, we--sometimes we could stop at a filling station and sleep in the car or something. But this is the reason, you know, that we do not travel.”

He accepted what I was saying which was good, because I was ready to leave if he--when he first mentioned it, see, I was, you know how when you’re not quite sure what’s coming you get that defense up. Well, I was mentally getting that defense up and I guess I would have walked out and said, “Take your job and everything else and go to heck with it,” you know. But he didn’t. He was wise enough to not do this. But those are the people who really helped us to do things, not the ministers. We had heard, you know, when they did this thing about the picketing of the stores that they would not do that. We were downtown on a Saturday trying to desegregate the lunch counters and Reverend Jones came in one, one, one Saturday and he said, “Ladies, are you suppose to attend the meeting?” And we wanted to know what meeting. We had not heard about any meeting. And he had made the mistake of going into H.L. Green’s at the time and the, he would always walk. When we were sitting and standing at anywhere, he made it his business to walk up and down Main Street for us. And so the person told him, says, “Well,” says “You’re a little early.” And he says, “Early, what time?” He was sharp enough to know something was going on. Well, some of the ministers had gotten together with the department store lunch counter people and told them they were taking care of it, meet with them. And so, when we told him we didn’t know anything about a meeting, he said, “Well, I’m going to go.” Well, when he walked in everybody could have dropped dead, I guess because they knew how involved he was with us. And so they kept talking, started the meeting and when the manager wanted to know, “Well, when was he going to stop them from picketing,” stop us from picketing, you know, their places. So, Reverend Jones says, “I don’t know what these gentlemen have told you,” says, “But you need to talk to those two ladies. They’re the ones who are heading, you know, this, this thing.” Well, that didn’t make them very happy again. They could put him on their list if they had a list he definitely would have been on the list.

BRINSON: Of course at that period too, you know, we were dealing not only with racism but sexism.

GREVIOUS: Yes, yes.

BRINSON: And here the two of you as women are the leaders.

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Do you think that played a part in all of this?

GREVIOUS: I don’t know that, that--because after this happened on a Saturday--when I went back to work I made arrangements for my children to stay in the dormitory after lunch, not to come back. They met on Mondays and I went to the meeting, the ministerial meeting. And I told them that we would gladly step down if any of them wanted, you know, to assume the responsibility for it. That the only reason that we were there sticking our necks out was because nobody else was doing it but we were just as good followers as we were leaders. And if this is what they would like to have we would gladly--but nobody volunteered to take over.

BRINSON: How many black churches do you think there were in Lexington at that point in time?

GREVIOUS: Oh, gosh.

BRINSON: How big was the ministerial association?

GREVIOUS: I would say twenty or more.

BRINSON: Okay. And most of them would have been there at a meeting like this?

GREVIOUS: The Baptist anyway because that was the one that I went to and they included a smaller area of town, county churches, too. I know that there had to have been fifteen to twenty ministers there at that meeting.

BRINSON: So Reverend Green was active with you.

GREVIOUS: Who? No, Jones.

BRINSON: Jones, I’m sorry. Were there any other ministers?

GREVIOUS: Uh-uh, not another, he was the only one. And many, many times when we would send notices about something, you know, many of the ministers didn’t even bother to read it to the congregation. Which was strange because as I said every place else ministers were the leaders in the Movement and we could not quite understand, you know, what it was. And I think this also made us more determined to be a success with it. What really got me involved in the movement after I had been elected president of the NAACP I had an opportunity to go to a convention in New York one year. And I met these two young men and we started talking about their section of the country and mine and ah…

BRINSON: This was the NAACP?

GREVIOUS: Both of them were from Ohio. This is the NAACP Convention. And so one of the leaders of the thing was having lunch with us one time, and we were talking, he said, “You know we have always wanted to do an experiment and we’ve never had anybody to really, really do it. How about you three doing it?” Well, first I wanted to know what kind of experiment, you know, being the only woman sitting right there at the table. And he said, “We’d just like to have somebody to just go across country down south and stop at all the places, and see it they’d be served to eat.” And we looked at one another and decided that would be a good thing, you know, to do. And so I, we had a car, a fairly good little old car, not fancy or anything, just a good, old running car. And we just dressed and we stopped and documented every place we stopped all from New York all the way down to Lexington through the southern states you know, including Washington, D.C. We came through that area. And we weren’t served any place. Now a couple of places said they would fix us some food in a box, in a sack if we came around to the back door to get. Of course, naturally you were not going to do this. Then the plan was to get back to Lexington, the NAACP rented a limousine for us, furs for me, jewelry, kind of a, not African dress like that do now so much, but different. And I was to sit in the back, one young man was to be dressed up in a suit all the time and the other was to be the chauffeur. And we were to head back and stop at the very same places all the way back to New York. And we were served at every place that we stopped except one. And the conclusion that we came to was that they weren’t quite sure who I was. Same people, we were still clean when we went before only this time I had some furs in the hot summertime wrapped around me and jewelry, you know, and all this fancy other stuff.

BRINSON: Fancy car.

GREVIOUS: You know, uh-hmm, fancy car, chauffeur and everything, so they weren’t quite sure whether this was a foreigner coming through and they served. Well, this is what made me decide this is ridiculous. Nobody needs to go this. The same people we were no different, and this is what really got me into the serious part of making a change.

BRINSON: Well, it sounds like from that though to the people who served you that color wasn’t the issue so much as economics.

GREVIOUS: No, no, we were clean. We were clean before.

BRINSON: No, no, I mean the fact that you had money the second time.

GREVIOUS: No, I think that it was--I still feel that they weren’t quite sure, now keep in mind this is around the fifties, late fifties, whether this was a diplomatic something, an African queen. This is what I thought because the car that we were in was a good car.

BRINSON: The first trip.

GREVIOUS: The first trip we were not in a raggedy car. And we had on good clothes. It just wasn’t the difference, you know, with the African look on it. But the clothes were, I mean there was no doubt about money, because I even had jewelry on even then. So, you know, but it was I think, the African thing around the head, and just the costume, was what I always called it, the look. That, that, that, that convinced me that this was totally ridiculous when the same people can come back dressed differently and be served. Something has to be wrong. And that’s what really got me into the Movement one hundred and ten percent.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: And, so, this, this, this was the beginning of a whole lot of things. When I came back they thought the enthusiasm was from the convention. No. It was not. It was from that trip, those two trips. And then of course we flew on back, you know, I flew back to Lexington.

BRINSON: And now this would have been about what year? Was this before you became president?

GREVIOUS: This was right after, right after I had been elected, you know, president. And oh, let me see, had I married then? ‘Cause I married in `60.

BRINSON: But you didn’t have any children.

GREVIOUS: I didn’t have any children, no. I don’t have any children anyway. I just have my nephews and great nieces and nephews. You know the thing that bothered me even when we were out doing the picketing and things, that and even after I had married. My husband and I would get up at four o’clock in the morning after we had been out, say, on a Friday or Saturday and clean the mess, the filth that would be thrown in my yard. Why they never threw and broke my windows, I don’t know. But the worst mess you can imagine would be in my yard. And my neighbors never knew it because we’d get up early and clean it up.

BRINSON: How do you think that got there?

GREVIOUS: Oh, we knew that the whites were coming through throwing it, throwing it in the yards because they had been seen the first time. Because a neighbor was coming home from work and they saw them and that’s when they called. And that’s when we would, each weekend we would just expect it, and then just have our bags, and go on out there and clean it up so that nobody would know anything about it. They take, they tapped our phones, Julia’s phone and our phone was tapped. And we would plan activities someplace where we weren’t going to go and send somebody, some of the whites, you know, that were in our group out; and there sure enough would be somebody out there waiting, you know, for us. But we did someplace else after we discovered this.

BRINSON: What kinds of things did they throw in your yard?

GREVIOUS: Oh, ah, we’d want--dirty sanitary napkins, garbage, trash, beer bottles, uhmm, spoiled food, you name it and it would be in my yard.

BRINSON: Was there an active Klu Klux Klan here?

GREVIOUS: Not that we know of. Now there was one that was supposed to have come in here from the northern part of Kentucky, oh, it was either Newport. What’s that other town?

BRINSON: Covington?

GREVIOUS: Covington, one of those, up in that area. And we found out about it from somebody in that area called down, and we called Chief Hale, and they met them out and they wouldn’t let them come in.

BRINSON: That was a Klan or was it a White Citizen’s Council?

GREVIOUS: That was the Klan. It was the Klan that had planned that. Too much success was going on in Lexington and they were going to stop it. Oh, one of the spy members--as you know all organizations have your spy members--called and we found out about it. And so we called him and he met them. So they never got into Lexington and nobody ever knew anything about it.

BRINSON: Did Chief Hale ever talk to you about that at all?

GREVIOUS: Oh, yeah, we talked often. We kept in, pretty much in touch.

BRINSON: But did…

GREVIOUS: I think that he was impressed with the professional peace way that Julia and I were doing things. Because when we met with him the first time there were no demands. You better do this. You better not do this sort of thing. We just sat down and talked about what we were going to do and how could we work together. And it worked.

BRINSON: Did you ever hear what the Klan actually intended to do, said stop you but…?

GREVIOUS: No, after they didn’t get in. We had no idea what they were going to do. We have no idea what they were going to do because we were--we would have had a demonstration--I’m not sure if it was when we were trying to get the jobs or the lunch counter, one of the two, because they kind of interwoven in together and this was on a Saturday that they were coming. And I must say that I was so proud of our group because they said that they were going to go on anyway. I was hoping they’d say no. [Laughing] That would have meant I wouldn’t have to go either. [Laughter] But we had said, you know, yes, we were going to go on.

END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE TWO

BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE TWO

BRINSON: The city council and other government leaders, did they support or did they discourage?

GREVIOUS: They didn’t discourage. I don’t know if they supported it so much or not but we, we didn’t bother, we did not bother. They didn’t bother us and we didn’t bother them because we knew without a doubt that the police would be the one that would be coming to do whatever needed to be done. And evidently if they had said anything to him he informed them that this is the way that he would like to handle it. And it worked for Lexington because we had no, nothing, the dogs were not there. The hose was not there and we went prepared for it. I think that I’m the only one that got…

BRINSON: How do you prepare for that?

GREVIOUS: Well, that it was going to happen.

BRINSON: So psychologically you went prepared.

GREVIOUS: Yes, that we were not going to fight back at least we were not going to try to fight back. The only time that we may have had a confrontation was at H.L. Green when we were standing in, and as I told, well, the first, the week before that, we sat; we got in before they knew we were coming, and so we all took up all the seats at the counter. And the young lady there turned over a thing of tea all over my suit. As a matter of fact I still have the suit up as a souvenir in the attic. I hope it is still together. But anyway and so the next week we came back. But this time he had a chain all around the entrance to the lunch counter. And the manager is sitting on this stool and when one of his white customers would come he would open the chain and let them in. And unfortunately I was at the beginning, at the front of the line and I guess it must have been about twenty, twenty other people, men and women, you know, behind. And he had this chain and he kept swinging it. And the chain kept hitting me right across the leg like this and I would move, you know, a little bit and he would scoot up and move some more.

So then I started to sing, no--the men, the men decided we’re not going to let him do this to you. And I said, “No, go off the picket line. Go home, please go home.” And reluctantly they did. I said, “It’s okay. It’s not hurting.” It was but I didn’t let them know. And he kept on and I stood there and I’m looking him right on the eyeball and he’s looking me right on the eyeball. And he’s still swinging and it’s still hitting and it was hitting across--and I started singing, “Yield Not to Temptation” now how all the words to that song came I will never know. I think I sang all of them right, and then I started making up my own for that time. I’m the only person that I know that received any injury with the ladies because I had to wear Ace bandages for months after that, because it did do some damage to the nerve, you know, in there. Other than that nothing. I mean we didn’t, you know, we didn’t have anything. But we stayed the whole time, and then finally when my time was up then I think Julia stood at the line and she was taller than I and bigger than I and I think he must have just gotten tired because the other young man who came and sat on the stool didn’t do the chain. But the manager, the actual manager did do the chain.

Now you talking about having some control, and I’ve always wondered how those people who had those things done to them could do it, it took an awful lot for me not to take that chain away from him and wrap it around his neck. Because that’s really what I felt like doing to that man, and then I thought, that’s what he would like for me to do. And I am looking back at all the ladies because by this time nothing is left but ladies and they kept saying Audrey let me be up there. I said, “No, I don’t want…” And see everybody else just about except Julia and I had children. They were either mothers or grandmothers.

BRINSON: Where were the men that had been with you?

GREVIOUS: Oh, we made them leave because see they were going to ring his neck.

BRINSON: Oh, I see.

GREVIOUS: They were going to take that chain and wrap it around his neck. We made them, we had to literally make them leave, even leave the whole place. And by that time Reverend Jones had also, you know, come, like I told you he came to everything that we, you know, did. And when he came to find out what was going on and they stood outside and he told them, “Please, go.”

BRINSON: Let me ask you a couple of questions. The waitress who spilled the tea on your dress, your suit, was that deliberate?

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Were there other instances like that?

GREVIOUS: No that was the only one. One time at one of the depart--I mean lunch counters--there were a group of young white boys who came by with lighters trying to hold it close to the hair, and someone, and they went and got the police. See the police were there somewhere around all the time in case they were needed, but they didn’t bother us which was unique.

BRINSON: Okay. I’m interested also in your husband in all of this. How did he feel about you?

GREVIOUS: Well, he wasn’t really that happy but there wasn’t anything he could do about it. That’s the reason he’s no longer my hu…

BRINSON: Was he involved with you?

GREVIOUS: Not really. One of us had to remain sane and so he decided to be the sane. Other than he recognized the fact that this is what I wanted to do and this was what I was going to do. So but, he would have much rather that I had not been because he was concerned each time that we went out. And we had a car that was very recognizable, it was the only car like it in Lexington at the time, and he knew that my car was followed, you know, a lot. And so after a couple of times when it was then we decided that I wouldn’t drive a car, somebody would pick me up. By that time they all knew and I had a carport instead of a garage then so when you came by you saw where the car was parked anyway. But he was concerned.

BRINSON: Do you think though the fact that you were determined to move ahead with all of this was eventually a factor in your separation?

GREVIOUS: No, uh-hum.

BRINSON: Okay, so he just preferred that you didn’t.

GREVIOUS: Well, he would have been happy if I had not been involved with it. What, not so much involved, taking such an active role in it. And was proud at the time that somebody was doing something, yes. I think that mixture, if it is possible to have the mixture of concern, fear and pride, all at the same time. Well, this is what I think he felt that something was being done that he would benefit from, his family members and other people, you know, would be, so it…

BRINSON: I want to ask you about two other women. I’ve read about a group here called Lexington Committee on Religion and Humanities and a woman named Laura Massey. And I’m wondering if you ever had any contact with her.

GREVIOUS: Uh-huh.

BRINSON: I’m not sure how active they were. I just know they were on record in support.

GREVIOUS: No. Whose name again?

BRINSON: Laura Massey.

GREVIOUS: What is that…

BRINSON: Lexington Committee on Religion and Human Rights, I’m sorry. She was the general secretary and what I know is that she later moved, she retired to California. I’m sure it was a predominantly white group.

GREVIOUS: I’m not, I was trying to think what that lady’s name was and her husband were involved with CORE. And I, I, I hesitated to mention it because I couldn’t remember what their names were. And she might have been represented that group in CORE.

BRINSON: I think her husband was a doctor.

GREVIOUS: At UK, I mean not, was she at UK, too?

BRINSON: I don’t know.

GREVIOUS: I’m not sure. I’d have to ask Abby Marlott. She would remember.

BRINSON: Well, Abby actually is the second person I wanted to ask you about. What do you recall about her?

GREVIOUS: Abby was very supportive in everything on all the sit-ins you knew Abby was going to be there. Oh, oh, she was the type of person that gave you mental and moral support because you knew that if you asked her to do something she was going to be there to do it; would stick her neck out. I’ll always feel that UK was unhappy that Abby was that involved with the Movement, but at the same time she felt strong enough about it that she was going to do it anyway and she did it anyway. And knowing that she was willing to make the sacrifice, I think helped to recruit some other people who might have been hesitant about sticking their neck out. But when you could say to them--but you know, black or white--that here this professor at UK who could lose her job any day was still sticking her neck out because this is the way she knew that things should be. And most appreciative of the work that she did with the group.

BRINSON: Somewhere I’ve heard it suggested that she might have actually been demoted at UK because of her…

GREVIOUS: I’ve, I’ve always felt this.

BRINSON: So she, there was a demotion for her.

GREVIOUS: I don’t know. I just always felt that they did something to her. I mean what it was, I mean, I don’t really know because we had accomplished many of the things that we wanted to do; when all of these changes seemed to have come about with her. And being the type of person that Abby is she would never say. Oh, so, I’m not sure. But we always felt that they would do, or did some things as a payback. That you wouldn’t stop but I’ll make you wish you had. And I may not be even fair with saying that. But it kind of looked like that to the rest of us.

BRINSON: Were there any other women that you remember that were involved to the level that you all were? Were Abby or…?

GREVIOUS: There were some other ladies who were involved but I’m so bad on names nowadays that I would hate to mention anyone and not mention all and I don’t remember all. And as I said, many of the people who walked the picket lines, who sat at the thing, were not your professional people who were doing it. They were mothers, housewives and things, who just wanted to be a part of the change and were there all of the time.

BRINSON: Okay. Reverend Jones, I think, Lamont, is that his first name?

GREVIOUS: Well, he was a young boy at the time.

BRINSON: So that’s not the Reverend Jones you were?

GREVIOUS: No.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: The father is the one that I’m talking about.

BRINSON: And his name, do you remember?

GREVIOUS: William Jones, I believe because I think Billy is named after his father.

BRINSON: But the senior Reverend Jones is he still living?

GREVIOUS: No, uh-huh.

BRINSON: So it’s his son, was his son involved?

GREVIOUS: As a teenager, yeah.

BRINSON: Was he?

GREVIOUS: The Jones boys were part of the youth group.

BRINSON: Okay. Who else was in the youth group do you remember?

GREVIOUS: Oh, gosh, I, oh, Ron Barrie was in the youth group, very active in the youth group. I’m just trying to think of names that you might know. There were so many of them that you would never know because this was their only thing of greatness I guess you would say.

BRINSON: Somewhere I have a Reverend A.B. Williams?

GREVIOUS: A. B. Williams.

BRINSON: And a Reverend A. B. Lee. Do you remember those names?

GREVIOUS: I know, I know those names but I don’t know what they did. One time Reverend Lee and his members marched from the church down Chestnut, down Third down DeWeese, down Main but that’s the only thing that I remember them doing.

BRINSON: Do you remember what that march was for?

GREVIOUS: No.

BRINSON: Okay.

GREVIOUS: It just might have been one Sunday afternoon because like I said the ministers were not involved directly.

BRINSON: Uhmm, in 1961 there was a freedom parade on Main Street was that part of the effort to open up the movie theaters? Do you remember that at all the parade?

GREVIOUS: I’m trying to think what that was. I remember that. What was that? Not remembering all the details of that because that was, that was one of CORE’s projects, the Freedom Walk, I think. And many of the people who had done these other things did walk because I’m trying to think where was I that--because I know I didn’t get to walk. Where in the heck was I? I must have been out of town.

BRINSON: Okay. I want to talk with you, please, a little bit about the integration of the schools here. When did that come about?

GREVIOUS: See when you are asking dates, dates are not in my mind right now.

BRINSON: Or do you remember how that…?

GREVIOUS: Yes, here in Lexington my brother and Perkins, and who was the other person? There were three or four of them that filed a suit, oh, ah, for the integration of the schools. And oh, ah, keeping in mind that, you know, it had been passed that they were not to have segregated schools anymore and they won. And they did cause the integration of the schools but even before then. Let me see now, let me see. I’m trying to think when was this. Oh, you know, I’m confusing that with when the county and the city schools came together.

BRINSON: Okay. When the schools were integrated with the lawsuit what happened? Was there bussing? Was there freedom of choice?

GREVIOUS: Well, there was bussing but you know what they ended up doing they closed all the black schools which totally disgusted, you know, everybody. And my, my argument always was with if you’re saying that the schools were equal then why all of a sudden when there is the possibility that the white students will have to come to the school that they are not equal anymore. And all of the neighborhood black schools were closed.

BRINSON: What happened to the teachers in the black schools?

GREVIOUS: They, ah, they went into the white schools. But even before then, before the lawsuit when it was obvious that the change was going to have to come about, what they did was go in and get the best teachers out of the black schools and put them in the schools. And we always maintain and it’s not fair to say this because I’m sure that it’s not completely true, but I’d say eighty percent true that their worst teachers they sent into the black schools. Because see this happened before they closed the schools that the white…

BRINSON: The worst of the white teachers were sent to…

GREVIOUS: Were sent to—you know--and this is not fair because I know some good white teachers were in some of the schools. But this was their way to get rid of their worst teachers that were in there but… And I know that this is true because I had to speak at Eastern Kentucky one time about delinquent boys and girls at the time, and then in the process of doing that somehow integration of schools and things, you know, came up. And I also made the fact of what I said to you before, that the cream of the crop of the black educated people went into teaching because nothing else was open to them. And so I also made this remark at this meeting and I looked out because I’m talking to administrators. I’m principal of the Village at the time and I’m talking to them and I said, “And there are those of you I know who went into the black schools and took out the best teachers and sent them the worst teachers.” Well, I’ll tell you if looks could have killed I would have been dead, and hostility, you could just feel the hostility, you know, just coming up. It didn’t bother me because I knew I was telling the truth. So we had a break. I don’t know if…

BRINSON: And this would have been about when that you were telling your audience…?

GREVIOUS: This was in the early sixties, early sixties. And so, we had the break and some of those that were kind of in the front that I saw the hostility come were talking, and I’m standing there talking to someone else and they kind of made their way over to me. And they said, “Mrs. Grevious, we’re just going to have to tell you,” said, “when you first made that remark we became very hostile and we were really angry but then after we got together and talked, we did that.” I said, “I know it.” I said, “I really would not have said it if I had not known it.” I said, “I know some of the teachers who were taken from the schools in Lexington and put in, they were the better teachers in that school system.”

BRINSON: But the people in that audience came from other places.

GREVIOUS: Yes, all over Kentucky.

BRINSON: So that probably was happening other places as well.

GREVIOUS: Yes, huh-huh. Yeah it was a group of administrators who were there for something and he had asked me if I would come and speak to them. And I agreed to come and talk because they wanted to know what were some ways they could handle delinquent boys and girls within the school system you know and all. And I pointed out to them what had happened to many of our students. We worked with them; got them to have a positive attitude about going back into the school system, and the minute they hit the door the principal has them to come in and he says to them, “And we don’t want anymore of the stuff that you did”. I said, “And they didn’t even give them a chance. And so being young people, if that’s what you expect from me then that’s what I’m going to give you. And so they would become hostile as well. And I said, “This needs to stop because when they, before we send them back into the community, there has been a change of attitude and usually it’s a positive. Every now and then it’s a negative because we’ve been too hard on them. But that’s beside the point.” And I said, “When they hit the door and you start hitting them before they even let you know that they’ve made a change and they’re willing to try then you’ve put them in a bad frame of mind.” So that is what that was.

BRINSON: In hindsight, uhmm, when you look back to a period where you had separate schools and then you had integrated schools, how do you think blacks really fared as a result of integrating the schools?

GREVIOUS: I don’t think that they fared as well simply because many of the teachers did not want to teach them. Many of them for some reason or another maybe thought that they couldn’t learn. I don’t know why they would have ever thought that but I’m sure that some people did feel that. And because they did not want to teach them they didn’t do a very good job of doing this. Many of the young people sat in a classroom and weren’t called on day after day even if their hands went up, till after a while they got to the place, well, why bother to study? They’re not going to call on me anyway. And this happened as a group of blacks and then it also happened unfortunately to our black boys that for some reason the girls were accepted a little, little better.

And I can use my nephew as an example. Oh, they were always really ahead because we had school in the middle of my bed when they were real young. If they were ready to learn, Audrey taught them, you know. And so they would study and there was always a group of the boys and the girls that went to Douglas who were in competition with one another. It was good, clean competition. And when they went to Leestown they were never, the boys were never called on. And when he brought a D home on a report card, you know, like, that to me is like cutting my throat. And I wanted to know why and how? “I don’t like school anymore”. And here these two and three year olds who want to learn how to read, alphabet and write, you know, this doesn’t make any kind of sense at all. And so when I checked into it to find out what it was they said that they just stopped studying at all cause they weren’t ever called on. Never held up their hand anymore. Sat back there and talked, you know, just, just did it. And I said but you are falling right into their trap. And I got the whole little group, never will forget it, here in the middle of my floor, of the group that were here and had always been and we had to talk about this. And that all the time you can not live up to expectations of other people especially if those expectations are not high. It’s better to fool them and let them know they made the mistake rather than you. And I didn’t want to see any F’s and D’s on anybody’s report card ever again. And because my house had always been the playhouse of the neighborhood since I didn’t have any children, see, I could play with them in here and then send them home when I got through with them. And it was they knew that they could come here the middle of my floor was always, we always had games. I guess I’m a game person. And we would play, be out on the street jumping rope and skating, doing whatever, you know, it was. And so they knew that I had their interests, you know, at heart.

And when the girls said the same thing because they were kind of concerned, because a couple of them said, “Well, sometimes we’d just give partial answer because we knew the boys knew the rest of it but they still wouldn’t call on the boys to get the rest of the answer.” And there was a negative attitude among the teachers of having to do that, some of them, not all of them but too many of them. And as a result if they did not come into a group, say, like this little group of mine that finally made the change, oh, they began to go down rather than because the expectation wasn’t there. You didn’t want them anyway. You were going to pass them on; give them a C and that was it. And mistakenly many of the parents thought that maybe the work was a little harder and a C was all that they could make when they were making A’s and B’s before, which is totally ridiculous. But you never know, you hadn’t been in the school; you didn’t know what it was. And they weren’t saying, you know, what it was because I don’t think they even realized, oh, what was really happening, you know, to them.

And like, my, my oldest nephew loves math. He always did because I did, you know, and so, kind of, we and he wanted to take the math, get into advanced math. And the teacher told him that, “No he wasn’t ready.” but still when he takes the test, the national test that they give for scholarships and things, he’s in the top five. So, you know, how is this possible, but yet and see he couldn’t get in the advanced math classes. So they had their problems, oh, during this time unfortunately and, but those who had parents, and those who spoke out and listened when some of us said to them, get involved, be on hand. Let them see you and let them know that a C or a D is not acceptable in your household; and if they need some advanced work, I mean some remedial work then you see to it that they would get it. But these children didn’t need remedial work. They were doing a fantastic job up here at Douglas with this group that wanted to really learn.

BRINSON: Okay. I’m going to stop because I think I need to transcribe the tapes and think about this and I’m pretty sure I’m going to want to come back and talk to you again. But let me just ask you in closing is there anything else that you’d like to share at this point about this whole period of your life?

GREVIOUS I think that I can look back on things that happened, things that I was involved in and feel pretty proud that I made the sacrifice and did something because it was not easy at times. That I had enough insight to want something different and feel that it really could happen, and be willing to do something to try to make it happen. That I was able to influence other people to follow ‘cause that’s a hard thing to do when you’re sticking your neck out. I, I think that I was fortunate enough to recognize that everybody needs a pat on the back and I never talk about the Movement that I don’t mention those other people even though many of them are nameless that were a part of it because without them nothing could be done. Sometimes and it was with Julia more so than I to the point that at times I thought she got a little bit of concern and you may not have been able to get an interview with her at all because she didn’t want it. Oh, it was like we…

END OF SIDE TWO, TAPE TWO

BEGIN SIDE ONE, TAPE THREE

GREVIOUS: We the two of us never got any recommendation. We got no awards from any of the organizations for--it was our sacrifice, because we both could easily have lost our jobs getting involved in it and it was time consuming. It was a lot of interpersonal things that were happening concerning it because you were giving so much of yourself, you know, to this. And we did, neither one of us went into to it to get any honors. But I think you become concerned--and I try not to become concerned--I just shrug it off when I see and hear of other people who did not do, who are recognized with awards, plaques, whatever, you know. Oh, with the exception of the people who were actually in the Movement there are people here in Lexington who don’t even know that we were involved especially if they were younger, you know. And sometimes I feel like it is an unfortunate thing because they missed out on so much to really, to hear her or even hear me talk about how things were so that they never let it happen. Because I see this, I see things going back the way they were. If somebody does not recognize subtle racism and try to put a stop to it, and not be so thankful that you smiled and said hello but yet and see you stuck your tongue out as soon as I passed, you know, this sort of thing. Oh, and it bothered her an awful lot until I had to talk to her and I felt that it embittered her a little bit because she made some big sacrifices, you know, for, for the Movement.

BRINSON: If others have been recognized in this area why do you think the two of you were not?

GREVIOUS: I do not know! We don’t really know. We’ve never really, really known because you know we hear when ministers are getting these awards for the Civil Rights Movement and I’m, “What did they do?” And I really think because we both were so laid back, I really think this, that, oh, and it might be I just remember early, you know, when some plaques and they may have taken it literally. I don’t want, I don’t want this. And it might be to keep from being denied the opportunity to do it. They said, “Well, she doesn’t want it. She’s not going to take it anyway.” That this might have been the thing. But somewhere along the line it would have been nice if, if somebody had, you know, said thanks. [Laughing]

BRINSON: Do you think that it was that part of the reason that you haven’t been recognized is because the two of you are women?

GREVIOUS: Yes. I really and truly do. She and I had talked about this and since many of the groups who were giving, you know, things were male dominated, you know, that because it does call attention to the fact that the men were not the ones who were leaders during that time. And it has to bother them. I think that if I were a man it would kind of bother me that two women, young women at the time stuck their neck out to make a change and I was not really, really actively involved. And again I must say we had men that were available anytime we needed them. But your so-called leaders were not a part of that particular group. And I think if we had failed it would have been good but to have succeeded was just a little bit more, it did quite a bit of damage to their pride. That’s the conclusion that she and I had reached years ago. That it was just too much for them to admit that two women were able to accomplish what they did not. And I might be unfair to them but that’s the way it seems to us.

BRINSON: It seems that way to me, too.

GREVIOUS: Yes, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: The other issue that I’m really intrigued about is that fact that the CORE chapter and the NAACP chapter as you described it could work together so well here when that didn’t happen in other places.

GREVIOUS: It didn’t happen.

BRINSON: And you, you said it was because you and Julia worked together.

GREVIOUS: Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: And I just wonder again is there something about women leaders working together that makes things different than male leaders of similar programs other places that…?

GREVIOUS: I don’t know. I don’t know. I really don’t know because neither one of us were trying to make a name for ourselves. That wasn’t the purpose for doing it. And oftentimes when people get involved in movements like that, is their underground reason for doing this; it will mean something to me later on. And neither one of us thought about this. She thought about her nieces and nephews, and I thought about my nephews not having to go through the same sort of thing that we did and were denied because times were changing and we wanted them to be ready and have the opportunity to do what we felt that they were capable of doing. And often we talked about those because she had no children either, and we talked about our nieces and nephews and things benefiting from what, oh, you know, we were doing. But it was an interesting time. It, it never got to, as I said before, to the place where it was a seriously frightening time and I think that helps. I don’t know what my attitude would have been if a bullet or a rock had come through my window. I don’t know that I would have continued to do this. Or if I had gone out and found all my tires cut on my car when it was parked out in the carport.

BRINSON: What happened here in the later sixties when the whole Black Power Movement sort of began to kind of be visible?

GREVIOUS: Well, there were, there were a group of young people and some of them I think were strongly involved with the other movement. They were younger and we’d say to them, you know, do something [laughing] you know, you’re the one who will have to live the rest of these times. We’ve kind of made it and you need to make yourself visible. And this was the beginning, you know, of that and it needs to come back again.

BRINSON: And they, do I hear you saying they were influenced by the Black Power Movement?

GREVIOUS: Not necessarily so, no. I don’t know what really, you know, influenced them because I did not really talk to them, you know as a group or even individually. I knew a few of them that were either directly or indirectly involved. But I didn’t get, I didn’t get involved, you know, in it. And it’s like I say, you know, you get tired after a while and oh, and I am tired. Oh, because during that time I gave an awful lot, an awful lot. It could have been disastrous but it wasn’t. Oh, I’m glad that I was involved. I wouldn’t give, I wouldn’t change it for any reason in the world except I don’t think I would have stood there and let that man hit me on my leg, you know. And I know that my attitude has changed. I know I wouldn’t do it now. I know he could not stand there and do that, but I’m hoping that this new generation that is coming in, and I don’t want so much Black Power, White Power, Purple Power or whatever it is. I would just like for people to be able to work at their capacity, have the same opportunities, look at me and not see color; if you don’t like me that’s okay. If I smell bad and you don’t want to be around me because I smell bad, that’s okay. But don’t look at me and see my brown, I always call it my gorgeous, beautiful, brown skin and decide, “ooooooo” something has to be wrong with her because there isn’t any more than I look and see the same thing. Give me a reason for not liking me if that’s the direction that you want to go in not because of the color of my skin because I’m not going to change that. Or who I am, I’m not going to change that, oh, unless I’m obnoxious, you know, have filthy mouth, and I don’t like to be around anybody like that, so I wouldn’t blame me at all. I wouldn’t blame you at all if you don’t want to be around because I don’t know how to talk and every other word out of my mouth is profanity. Then see I wouldn’t want to be around you either or me either, you know. And so I’m hoping and I don’t know if I’ll live to see it that the day will come when everybody will be accepted for themselves and not, not really the color. You don’t see it you go beyond. You see these other things that you may or may not like but also find something that you can like. And I don’t like everybody. And I tell them all the time, you know, they say, I don’t like every black person that I come in contact with. I don’t like every white person that I come in contact with. I tolerate some and some I don’t even tolerate. I just avoid being around them, but it’s not because of their color. There’s something else about them that keeps me from wanting to, you know, associate with them. And I hope that the time will come, you know, when this will be a reality and when we talk about the jobs. If I’m qualified for the job, give it to me. If I’m not then don’t give it to me.

BRINSON: Okay. Thank you very much.

GREVIOUS: All righty.

END OF INTERVIEW