Oral History Interview with Gertrude Ridgel

BETSY BRINSON: This is April 27, 1999. This is an interview with Dr. Gertrude Ridgel in her home in Frankfort, Kentucky. It’s an unrehearsed interview. The interviewer is Betsy Brinson. Thank you very much, Dr. Ridgel for seeing to meet with me. Shall I call you Dr. Ridgel?

GERTRUDE RIDGEL: Well, you can call me Mrs. Ridgel, Gertrude Ridgel, but my close friends call me Gert.

BRINSON: Gert?

RIDGEL: Uh-hmm, but Mrs. Ridgel is fine.

BRINSON: Okay. Well, thank you for being willing to meet with us today. I want to begin if you will with some background information about you like when and where you were born and where you grew up. Your, little bit about your family, your early education.

RIDGEL: Well, I as born in West Virginia, in Charleston, West Virginia. My parents were Aubrey and Tina Cain. My maiden name was Cain and we grew up in a small community that they called--it went by many names--I remember when it was Bonemont. I don’t know what that meant.

BRINSON: Can you spell that?

RIDGEL: B O N E M O N T, something like that. But then it became Vandalia and right now, it’s probably known as Vandalia because the little community is still there. I don’t know too many people in it but it’s still there. So we grew up. I have a sister, Martha. We grew up and of course, we grew up with a, our parents taught us that we were as good as anybody, anybody, any human being and probably better than some. Now they didn’t say better than most but better than some. And of course, I grew up at a time when there was a lot of differences, noticeable actions between blacks and whites, the services that we could receive and what not. I guess this is the kind of thing you were wanting to hear.

BRINSON: Let me back up. Do you mind telling me about what period this was?

RIDGEL: Yeah, let me see, it had to have been somewhere in the thirties, I guess, that I’m talking about.

BRINSON: Okay you were born in?

RIDGEL: I was born in the latter part, I was born in the twenties. But this is probably when I was growing up that I can remember. I don’t remember any bad, bad things very early. I remember things when I was old enough, my sister and I were old enough to venture off by ourselves--and there was a grocery store--we lived up on a hill and there was a grocery store at the foot of the hill. And we always had to go to the foot of the hill to the grocery store because in those days lots of people had little accounts at grocery stores. This was quite common to have your little account and you’d send the children down to the store to get a loaf of bread, if you didn’t make the bread. And of course, we’d go down there and there was some little white children down there, and oh, they would call us all the bad names. Well, again, and this just shows you and I’m going to saying this N word which I don’t like. But the little white children would say, call us the little black niggers, the little black niggers. So my aunt, this is an aunt, had always, she tried to define the word nigger, why we don’t use it because if you’ll notice it is a bad word. It connotates bad. So we turned around and told the little white children, you’re nothing but a white nigger. And that has stuck in my mind really. But I just thought I would, you know, say that, but I have always.

BRINSON: A very early impression on you.

RIDGEL: That was very, very early. I probably, I may have been about eight or nine if that old. I have no idea really how old but I can remember that going to this little store and picking up whatever my grandmamma had told us to pick up at the store.

BRINSON: How did your parents come to live in this town?

RIDGEL: How did my parents do what?

BRINSON: Come to live in this town in West Virginia.

RIDGEL: Well, I’m not really a hundred percent sure. I do know my. I don’t know, really. I know that my grandparents, my father’s people came from somewhere in Virginia. In fact they always talked about, my grandmamma always talked about Salem, Virginia. I didn’t know too much about, I didn’t know anything about my grandfather’s people. I never heard of any of his associations. My grandmother, my father’s mother had a very close family in Virginia. Now how they got to West Virginia I don’t think I ever asked that question.

BRINSON: But your family had lived in this community for some time.

RIDGEL: They had lived, they lived in that community, I know they came out. My grandmother and, my father’s parents came out of somewhere in West Virginia in the coal mine district of West Virginia because I heard my father talking and my grand, they all worked in the coal mines at one point in time. Now why they came to West Virginia and ended up in this little community I have no idea.

BRINSON: Was this community a coal town also?

RIDGEL: No this, this is, this little town is an annex, a suburb of Charleston, West Virginia. Charleston was the capitol and of course, there was no industry or anything in this little town. There was nothing in this little town but this community.

BRINSON: Well, how did your parents make a living for you all?

RIDGEL: Well, they worked in, my father worked in a hotel. There was a hotel. Some of them did domestic work. My mother did domestic work sometime; my father did too. I remember that they worked for some real prominent people in West Virginia. Mother and Daddy worked together as the, I guess the maid and the butler or whatever you called them. But they did that kind of work. But my aunt was a schoolteacher and she taught in the little rural schools in West Virginia. Now my daddy’s—my mother’s people, as far as I know, they were from West Virginia. I don’t know of any origin of them from anywhere else. And I just don’t know and they were all, many of them were very, very fair. So I’m not certain that some of them may not have been even white people. I’m not certain.

BRINSON: You said we a few minutes ago. So I take it your have a brother, a sister?

RIDGEL: A sister, I said, somewhere in here I said I had one sister.

BRINSON: And are you younger or older?

RIDGEL: No, I’m the older of the two.

BRINSON: I take it for the time that you went to a segregated school yourself.

RIDGEL: Oh, yes, I went to a segregated school, in fact, segregated schools because when we were, there was a little school in the community where we lived a little black school. And I know we went there for awhile because I can remember my first grade teacher. And my first grade teacher stuttered and of course, many of us, many of her little students stuttered. It just shows you how you repeat after your teacher. And I remember my father chastising me, “Oh, no, no, you don’t stutter.” And he stopped that, you know, nipped that right in the bud. Mrs. Whitlock, her name was Whitlock. “Mrs. Whitlock might stutter but you don’t have to stutter.” But shortly after that because the parents worked we went from little school to little school with my aunt. My aunt as I said was a schoolteacher, so she carried us. We went to different little school with her wherever she taught. And finally she put us in the city school in Charleston school. I don’t know whether they had to pay any tuition or not. I don’t remember that. But when I was in the fourth grade, I do remember my fourth grade teacher. They put us in Boyd Elementary School and we went there to the city schools which was then a segregated school an all black school. And then I went to Garnet High School which again was an all black school. But it was a very, very good school even, everybody had to talk about what a good school Garnet High School was. They had excellent teachers.

BRINSON: Garnet, G A R

RIDGEL: N E T High School.

BRINSON: Okay. What year did you graduate?

RIDGEL: In nineteen, in 1939, I guess it was, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Growing up in the community, in that area were you aware that it was a segregated society?

RIDGEL: Oh, yes, indeed, yes, yes, yes. I remember one little occasion. They tried to do things sometimes in the town to bring together, you know, blacks and whites. It didn’t always work. I remember on one occasion, one, we had invited somebody from the Charleston High School to, on our campus, to appear on some program and they did. And when they left some, one of the white kids left some very slurring material, you know, racist and we were very disturbed about it. We didn’t think it was going to cause anything but it just disturbed the Garnet community, you know, for a little while. I remember the ice cream parlor. We had a place that we called, it was a little store, that we called Blossom Dairy. This was a particular brand of ice cream that was very good. And I’m not certain that its origin was not in Charleston. I haven’t seen it anywhere else. And we would stop with my mother sometimes on our way home and pick up some ice cream. And this time I don’t know what got into me, but I decided to sit down at the counter and get my ice cream. So I sat there. Here’s this little girl sitting here waiting for--and of course, they told us--we, I mean, of course, they told me--well, you know you can’t have this ice cream. And I’m asking why, why, why? And of course, I don’t know whether mother got the ice cream or what she did but anyway when we got out, of course, she jumped on me. She said, “Why did you sit there?” You know we aren’t suppose to sit there. And it told her, I think I told mother, ‘well I didn’t see any reason why I couldn’t sit there but anyway, so…’

BRINSON: Do you remember how old you were when you did that?

RIDGEL: Well, I probably, I know I was in the Charleston schools so I had to have been ten, eight or ten or something like that, uh-hmm, had to have been, maybe even older. But I just can’t remember. I can’t associate that event except I remember that event very, very well, because I really didn’t necessarily want to sit down and eat that ice cream. I just wanted to have the right to sit there if I wanted to.

BRINSON: So what happened to you when you graduated from high school?

RIDGEL: I went to college. I went to West Virginia State College and which is a historically black school. And I don’t remember, well, the one thing I disliked. I do remember a little dislike I had at my school. We had special programs just like we have them here at the college for invited, you know, dignitaries from all over the country and they would always reserve a certain section of our auditorium for white folk. And I, of course, always had that resentment. Why couldn’t they sit anywhere we sat? Why do we have to reserve this little space for them? But we did and it was always filled. They knew about the school. Subsequently the school now is probably more white than it is black.

BRINSON: What did you major in there?

RIDGEL: Biology and mathematics.

BRINSON: And I know that you are now a member of a sorority but were, did you join the sorority?

RIDGEL: I did not join the sorority in college. No, I did not. The sorority was there but I didn’t join it for one reason or the other and I don’t, can’t, don’t know what it was specifically. But the first opportunity I had because my aunt, now, not this other aunt. My mother’s sister was also a schoolteacher. She had gone to West Virginia State and had, in fact, was one of the founders of the chapter of the sorority at that school.

BRINSON: And are we, this is Delta Sigma Theta?

RIDGEL: This is Delta Sigma Theta Sorority. I did become a member of the alumni chapter at, in, it was called the Charleston Institute Chapter ultimately.

BRINSON: And at what point did you join the sorority, approximately what year? Do you remember?

RIDGEL: Probably in `51.

BRINSON: So you, you went to college and graduated and then what?

RIDGEL: Well, ultimately went to graduate school and ultimately got a Ph.D. in zoology.

BRINSON: And where did you do that?

RIDGEL: It was the University of Wisconsin.

BRINSON: The University of Wisconsin, so you moved around a little bit there.

RIDGEL: Uhmmm?

BRINSON: You moved around a little bit there to go from West Virginia to Wisconsin.

RIDGEL: Yeah, that’s, that’s quite a, the story of my getting to Wisconsin is really interesting because I had an aunt and this was the aunt I was telling you about I followed from school to school. Well, you may not know this but it was typical for teachers in the south to go to a northern school to get their advanced training, and their, the state would pay them to go to school because the school, the local university would not accept them. Now I can’t honestly tell you that that’s what happened to my aunt but I know it happened to many people. But anyway she, for some reason or the other, went to Wisconsin one summer or was going. And I don’t know who broached, which one of us brought it up but somehow I ended up going with her to Wisconsin, and of course that was really good for me. I met the right advisor by accident who really almost led me by the hand. And of course, I got my masters degree first. I worked for a little while then came back to school still had him as my advisor and ultimately I was able to--when I went back I really didn’t go back to get a degree. I never thought about getting that Ph.D. but I think he thought I thought I was. So the next thing I knew I was on that track.

BRINSON: It sounds like your aunt was a pretty important role model for you as a teacher. Would you agree with that?

RIDGEL: Well, I would say yes. I had a lot of, was of course, sometimes, we were a close family and this was--I was named after that aunt, Aunt Gertrude. She had quite an influence on our lives and in fact there were times we wanted to tell her you’re not our mother, you know. She, yeah, I guess she was, she was, I’m not really certain I’d say role model but she was a guide.

BRINSON: Well, she influenced you.

RIDGEL: Yeah she was an influence in our lives.

BRINSON: Okay. So when you finished your Ph.D. what, when was that and what did you do at that point?

RIDGEL: Well, I finished my Ph.D. I went back to West Virginia State believe it or not. And then, during my last period at Wisconsin I ran into my husband, my future husband. And so he, he had a fellowship to India to finish his Ph.D. in something about labor economics in the industry. It wasn’t labor, it was in labor economics but it had to do with unions in India. But anyway he was working at Fort Valley in Georgia, and so when I left, when I went back to West Virginia State I resigned and went to Georgia because a school--we were quite [laughing] everybody wanted us to come. All the black schools wanted us at that time because he was working on a Ph.D., I got my Ph.D. before he received his, and so I took a job at Albany, Georgia. And then ultimately we got married.

BRINSON: In what year did you get married?

RIDGEL: In 1956.

BRINSON: And did you ever go to India with him?

RIDGEL: No, no, no. No, no, he was by himself.

BRINSON: He was doing research?

RIDGEL: Hmmm?

BRINSON: He was doing research in India?

RIDGEL: Yes, yes.

BRINSON: Okay. Has he been a teacher at Kentucky State?

RIDGEL: Oh, yes, he was at Kentucky State also. We came to Kentucky State, well, we came here, I had a friend who was here. Dr. Leola Travis, you might have heard of that name. She was a very close friend of mine from West Virginia.

BRINSON: Would you spell her name, please?

RIDGEL: Leola, L E O L A, Travis, T R A V I S.

BRINSON: Okay, thank you.

RIDGEL: She was a very close friend of mine and she really was responsible for our coming here. When we knew that they had the vacancy here I said, “Oh, that would be good.” That would give Leola and I a chance to be together again. And I had met the head of the biology department at a special summer program at the University of Wisconsin that we attended together. That was Dr. Lloyd E. Alexander. And he was impressed that I knew something about biology, I guess. And so between Dr. Alexander and Leola and the fact that they needed a Chairperson of the Business and Economics Department, all, everything just fell together. So we came here. And I guess the story of here is what you are really interested in.

BRINSON: Yes. Let me just ask one other thing. Do you have any children?

RIDGEL: No children, no children.

BRINSON: And you came here I believe you told me in 1960?

RIDGEL: In 1960 is when I came here.

BRINSON: What month in 1960?

RIDGEL: I, I guess it was, let me see, did we come in July of `60 or did we, it might have been almost like August. We were on the, July comes in there but I can’t remember off the top of my head whether it was July or August.

BRINSON: But you came so that you could begin teaching fall semester.

RIDGEL: We began in, I think then school started in September so that we started that first semester of the 1960-61 school year.

BRINSON: Well, Kentucky State was a pretty interesting place in 1960.

RIDGEL: It was indeed. It was indeed. Well, even before, I didn’t tell you all of the story of our coming because we had had, as I said we had lots of offers. Both of us had Ph.D.s, and of course--everybody that needed--all the black schools needed Ph.D.s and when they could get double Ph.D.s that was something else. And of course we did have several offers. And just about the time we had decided to come here Leola sent us this article of this burning of the building.

BRINSON: The gymnasium.

RIDGEL: The gymnasium at Kentucky State. And she told us then, “Well, you’ll have to make up your own mind. I’m not going to tell you to come, or not to come but these are the facts. You can read it and you can make up your own mind.” Well, we did come on an interview and of course we were very impressed with the president. That was Dr. Edward or Mr. Edward really, although he said Dr. Edward. We were really impressed because he was in his sickbed: he was in the hospital in tractions and we had to go by and talk to him. And of course, he gave us the impression--I don’t know whether it was all true or not--you know you think back, you know, but he gave us the impression that he was really being honest and sincere in everything that he said. That he knew that he could not bring me in at a salary that I wanted or even in a position that I might want but things might looked better, you know, as they went along. So we thought about it and we decided that, we’d gone to several interviews that maybe this was the best if we could find a place to stay, to live. And that was the problem. Where would you live? The only place that was possibly available was the house and it stands now. It’s the Baptist Student Union house. You know where that is?

BRINSON: No.

RIDGEL: Well, that’s on East Main right across from the school. Well, that wasn’t satisfactory at all because we had a dog and we knew that, I could just see the dog being killed on the highway, you know. But anyway, we told them, find us some suitable housing and we’ll be prepared to come. And it just so happened that there was, there ended up a house available downtown, a little walk through house on Murray Street. And we decided, well, we’d take that house. And that’s where we lived first. I think it was, well, I’ve forgotten the address but it’s down there near the Corinthian Baptist Church. It was a little pink house then. I think it is white now. And at the time that we came here, shortly after that we had not completely unpacked our bags that I met, or we met, Mrs. Helen Holmes. And Helen had been trying to recruit faculty and students for the civil rights movements through the NAACP. Well, she didn’t have too many problems recruiting us. And at the time they were training and I’ve forgotten what the group was whether it was SNIP or CORE or what.

BRINSON: I think it was the Congress for Racial Equality.

RIDGEL: I just can’t remember but whatever it was they were training students and faculty and community to sit-in at these restaurants and to march relative to, in public places, only in public places. We were not supposed to invade any private organizations. And so then they, this group could tell you whether you were capable of participating or not. My husband failed the test. [Laughing]

BRINSON: What kind of a test was it?

RIDGEL: Well, they were just, they were carrying you through a simulated sit-in and of course…

END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE

BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE

RIDGEL: In town. I remember Putz. Putz was a little restaurant down at the end of Ann Street right on Broadway, and no, it wasn’t on Ann. It was the end of, uhmm, I can’t think of the name of that street but it runs into Holmes Street. High, end of High Street. Putz and it was a popular restaurant but blacks couldn’t eat in it. So we sat in there. There was Mucci’s on East Main.

BRINSON: Is that M U N?

RIDGEL: M U, it seems to me that it was M U C C I, Mucci that we sat in. There was a drugstore on Main right across from where Penny’s used to be and we sat there or stood there. They had eating counters. They had these, there was a five and ten on, where the mall is now there was a five and ten down there, five and ten cents store. We sat in there. We walked around Frisches when it was up here and…

BRINSON: But you didn’t go in there?

RIDGEL: Well, yeah, some of them tried to go in. Some did go in but we also did our marches. So this since, we had students from Kentucky State who marched with us around: there wasn’t a whole lot, a few, you didn’t want too, too, too many because she really had problems. This is Mrs. Holmes again. Had problems. Now you see before we came here she had worked, she and the NAACP had worked very hard to open the pools. The pools had just been opened. They had closed most of the, they had closed most of the black schools by the time we got here, the public schools. Of course, the children had to go to, you know, Franklin County. To listen to some of their stories is something you probably need to catch some of these youngsters before they get too old to tell you of their stories at these various schools because I don’t know any of them. I only know the little things that we went through.

BRINSON: Now I know that sometime in the early sixties there was a boycott of a cab company here because they wouldn’t take black passengers.

RIDGEL: Well, I never did know about that. I never did take a cab anyway.

BRINSON: A number of Kentucky State students were part of it and President Atwood actually called in, at that point he was more supportive of the students being involved.

RIDGEL: Yes.

BRINSON: And he called in some of the campus staff to actually go to the bus and the train station three or four times to help the students.

RIDGEL: Yeah, to help the students. Excuse me one minute. I’ve got to run… [Tape goes off and then is turned back on.] I have an hearing aide and I thought, I said, now, I’ve said, “What did you say?” enough.

BRINSON: And I’m soft spoken, too.

RIDGEL: And you’re soft spoken.

BRINSON Well, if I can go back just a minute because just before you arrived there had been the arson to the gymnasium I believe in May. And then before that there had actually been a Students for Civil Rights Group that tried to organize and as I understand it, two of the faculty were fired as a result of it and eleven or twelve students were suspended.

RIDGEL: That was just before the fire or right after the fire, that’s right.

BRINSON: And if I’m recalling correctly one of the faculty was in the biology, the chemistry department? Did you ever hear about any of that when you arrived here?

RIDGEL: Well, I don’t know of that faculty person in the chemistry who was fired nor do I know of that person in biology.

BRINSON: Okay. I might have the discipline wrong there, too.

RIDGEL: Yeah, it might have been a different discipline. And the reason that’s…

BRINSON: I know they did file a lawsuit, but it took a couple of years and they lost the lawsuit.

RIDGEL: I don’t know. I don’t know. I suspect it was in a different discipline because I know who was in the biology department, and I think I know who was in the chemistry department. So I don’t think it was either one of those. Although I do know that Atwood had had a lot of pressure from downtown to keep the students and the faculty quiet you know. He, he had a lot of pressure. And really when we prepared to have the first, when we prepared to have a march on the city of Frankfort he almost like ignored it. You know, he didn’t want--he wouldn’t get up--in fact, Ms. Holmes was around then and she went to him and told him that they were going to have this march and she wanted the students and the faculty to participate and what was his attitude. And of course, he told her at that time well, you do what you have to do. You do what you have to do. And so they had a nice march on Frankfort and lots, some of the citizens of Frankfort didn’t participate, a few of them because they were afraid to participate. They worked for some people and they were afraid that if they were seen marching their jobs might be taken from them. But anyway…

BRINSON: I think that march was December of `61?

RIDGEL: That sounds right.

BRINSON: So you had been here just a little over a year and a half.

RIDGEL: I had not been here very long when I started marching and sitting in and of course I look at it in amazement sometime that we could have lost our jobs, you know. Because we came here, it looked as though we just came here and got so involved in the civil rights movement immediately. But I think it was something that we needed to do.

BRINSON: Let me ask you about the local NAACP. You mentioned that they’ve been very involved. Tell me how large was the NAACP Chapter here, just approximately?

RIDGEL: It wasn’t large, probably no larger than it is now. Probably not as large. Uhmm, it has been a group of just real dedicated people who work. Now I, of course, I have always been a part of the NAACP. I belong to it now although I don’t participate too much with the local chapter. I’m a paying member and I endorse most of what the NAACP calls for.

BRINSON:Would you say there were maybe twenty members or fifty members?

RIDGEL: Probably no more than twenty or twenty-five.

BRINSON: Do you remember during that early period of the sixties who any of the officers or the leaders were in the NAACP?

RIDGEL: Not really, not all of them, of course, as I said I remember Helen Holmes. She was a very vital voice in it. Archie Serrat was a strong member in it then. And really there was some towns people and I just can’t come up with any names right now. But there were not as many people involved as we thought should be involved. They had many more card-carrying members than they had members who attended the regular meetings which is true now even.

BRINSON: Do you remember at that time were there more men who belonged to the NAACP? Were there more women who belonged?

RIDGEL: I think then there were probably more men then, more men then, because the preachers: I remember preacher, the minister of the Methodist Church was very involved. Reverend Moore was not that involved. I bet he was a card-carrying member because he …

BRINSON: Now I’m not talking so much about the leadership of the chapter, the rank and file. Do you recall whether there were more men or more women or kind of a nice mix?

RIDGEL: I would think at that time more men. [Coughs]

BRINSON: Do you have any idea how old the chapter is here?

RIDGEL: Hmmm?

BRINSON: Do you have any idea how old the chapter is?

RIDGEL: No, I don’t. I have no idea. Now I’ll tell you who might be able to find that information from either from Archie Serrat maybe, maybe Coldfield, William Coldfield, he is the current leader. Now I said leader. I don’t know that he’s the president. He has a very important role at state level of NAACP.

BRINSON: Have the faculty at Kentucky State always been, as long as you’ve been here, have they always been active in the NAACP?

RIDGEL: No, in fact that was very disappointing that as many, there were not as many active on the faculty as we thought should have been.

BRINSON: How many approximately would you recall were active with you?

RIDGEL: I really can’t come up with a number. I can not come up with a number. I can not.

BRINSON: Tell me about Helen Holmes. She’s deceased now.

RIDGEL: Yes, she’s deceased.

BRINSON: What, she was a professor in what area?

RIDGEL: She was a professor in English at Kentucky State. And she was, her husband was a physician. And of course she was really independent. You know if somebody had, if they had fired her at Kentucky State she would have hurt, but she wouldn’t have gone into poverty. But, I had a lot of admiration for her. She really was interested in the welfare of human beings. And she did, she worked very hard, I understand. That was before I came here to open the pools. Not that she wanted to swim in any of them. She didn’t. And it was the same way with the integration of the restaurants. She knew all of the people in town. They had a lot of respect for Helen Holmes. In fact they asked her, Mrs. Holmes why in the world are you marching and sitting in these restaurants? And then after they opened them up one of them asked her, I don’t ever see you down here eating. Why don’t you come to eat? And she told him, “it wasn’t that I wanted to eat in your restaurant. Your restaurant was a public restaurant and I’m a member of the public and I had the right to sit in, a right to come in and eat in your restaurant if I wanted to. It just so happens I didn’t want to.” [Laughter] And she was, she was that kind of a person. So she did. She worked very hard, very, very hard. She was able to get a group of students together and a few faculty--I was one of those faculty together--and we did, we did this sitting in and walking in during that period. And she had a time recruiting people because see the students could not forget what happened following the burning of the building. I think there were about a dozen students who were expelled. And I didn’t know about, I don’t know how many, you know, whether, I didn’t know anything about the faculty people. But you could understand why they were cautious. And she could not always understand why these people would not stand behind her. And they did jail some of the students and she would have to go around trying to find people who owned property so that they would be able to sign a bond so that these kids wouldn’t have to stay in jail, and she managed to do that. And…

BRINSON: Were you ever arrested?

RIDGEL: Uhmm?

BRINSON: Were you ever arrested?

RIDGEL: I was never arrested.

BRINSON: Or your husband?

RIDGEL: Well, he didn’t sit-in. He just stood, almost, if he knew I was sitting in somewhere he would be hanging around to see what went on. But no, I was never arrested. In fact I went in some places and ate and I would come back and tell my husband, you know, I ate at, this was Horn’s. It was Horn’s Restaurant and whatever I ate wasn’t good. But I sat there and I ate and came back and told him. He went down there the next day, and they wouldn’t serve him. Of course, you know, we ask all these questions but see, some of these restaurant owners had, had the proper mental attitude. You know, talk with them a while, don’t feed them if you don’t want to and after while, if they stand there long enough they are going to go, you know. And that’s really what happened some of us stood as long as we could stand. And you know, you’ve got class or something, you had to go and tend to whatever you had to tend to. And a few got arrested. For instance if a whole bunch of them came together, I think those who were arrested were probably sitting in, in the five and ten. You know they have, had a little restaurant, a little area for eating. And you’d, they would sit there and they’d call the police and the police would escort them out if they wouldn’t move. A lot of times you’d sit there and they would just pay no attention to you because they lost trade. In fact the little restaurant [clears throat] at one of the drugstores, I think which was at the corner of St. Clair, that’s where the mall is now, St. Clair and Main. It’s a little restaurant, Market Place is there now but it was a drugstore. And they had little booths, little stools, and they just took all of their stools out so that there was no where for you to sit. So they didn’t serve, they just stopped serving food. That’s what happened in many places.

BRINSON: Did any of your own students participate?

RIDGEL: Oh, yeah, some of them did, uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Were they uncertain about participating? Do you remember any conversations with them, discussions?

RIDGEL: Well, some of them, yes, they were, there were some who could still relate to what had happened before. I’m going to do this but I’m not sure that if I get arrested would somebody, you know, look out for me.

BRINSON: I believe the student body at that point was about six hundred and fifty students?

RIDGEL: Probably was.

BRINSON: And how many faculty, do you know that? I haven’t seen that figure.

RIDGEL: Well, I would, I don’t know. I’d have to look that up but of course, it was, I would say, well, it probably wouldn’t over a hundred and something combination faculty and staff, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Were there any white people who demonstrated with you?

RIDGEL: [Laughing] When we marched at Frisches and this is just a cute little story. We were just marching around, marching around, looked up; about three or four little white boys who were marching, but they didn’t know what they were doing, they were little kids across, from across the street and they saw these people marching so they just joined the march. And we had some pictures of them marching with the, protesting with the group. But I don’t think, I don’t really think, there were people who supported us. But I don’t think there were any of the whites who sat in with us. There those who supported, you know, verbally supported.

BRINSON: Did any of them support you enough to help raise bail after people were arrested?

RIDGEL: Oh, I’m sure some, I’m sure Mrs. Holmes, now I didn’t participate in that bail getting. I didn’t own any property at that time. So I didn’t have anything I could offer in that line. But I’m sure that she, she might have gotten some. I don’t know. I don’t really know, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: In 1963 Martin Luther King came here and there was a big rally. Were you a part of that?

RIDGEL: I was a part of that too, and as a matter of fact, well, it’s really interesting when you get all of that story. Because we thought, in Frankfort, we thought we were more a part of it than we absolutely were. As a matter of fact I suspect my husband could find a ribbon down there somewhere. He was supposed to be one of the marshals. Then he discovered, well, he wasn’t really the marshal. I mean they got a local marshal. He didn’t really do anything. But, yes, we were very much involved in arrangements relative to that march, and of course we were, as I said, we were, we thought we were much, much, we didn’t know the federal government, the state government, that there was as much involvement in the preparation of this and that we were just a little speck in the total picture. But it was something to behold.

BRINSON: Can you tell me about it?

RIDGEL: Well, people, when you went, I was in the downtown area and all of a sudden I looked up, down and here come buses after buses after buses, people all over the state. When they lined up on Second Street to prepare the march, and when you saw the people who were in the line and you started--it was just awesome. Then they marched on Capitol--to the Capitol--and of course by then it had started raining. But it was, it was, in spite of the rain it was beautiful, you know. And of course, as usual, Martin Luther King gave a very stunning address and I think Kentucky State University Choir sang. And, oh, it was, and some other choirs and bands were associated from other schools. It was, it was just awesome.

BRINSON: Do you remember whether Georgia Davis Powers was…?

RIDGEL: Oh, yes, she was involved, too. She was involved, too.

BRINSON: Whether she gave a talk or?

RIDGEL: See, I really didn’t know her that well at that point. I knew her better later on, than I knew her at that particular point in time. But I know, I know she was there. I don’t know whether she spoke or not. I just can’t remember that.

BRINSON: I believe, correct me now here. I believe that the goal of the rally was to help basically show support for state legislation around civil rights.

RIDGEL: State legislation relative to civil rights, that’s right, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: How, how many people would you think were there? You said buses and buses.

RIDGEL: I’m not good at estimating people. But it was, it was the biggest crowd that I had ever seen in Frankfort. I mean, as far as you could look it was just a sea of people everywhere around that Capitol. And of course they protected Martin Luther, you know, you couldn’t get in certain places. And I remember I had my little movie camera and I’m just as busy taking film. Even lost some of the film, I don’t know where I lost it but…

BRINSON: So it was a big day.

RIDGEL: Yeah, it was a big, big day. And we, some of us started out early that morning because as I said we were much more important, we thought we were more important than we were.

BRINSON: You said you had been involved with arrangements.

RIDGEL: Well, arrangement like we met to, who was to get the marshals together; who was in charge of the food; who was in charge of this; who do you check for this, that and the other. There were, there were all kinds of committees and probably there were many, many more than we even knew about. These were the ones that we knew about the, I guess, it was the local NAACP. I’m really not focused as to how I specifically, my husband and I, how we really got involved in this march.

BRINSON: Tell me about the food. You said.

RIDGEL: No, this was concessions, the concessions.

BRINSON: Okay.

RIDGEL: No, we didn’t, we didn’t furnish any food as such, but they had concessions, and you had to have permission--you had to, the people who wanted to set up these food booths had to have permission--to set them up wherever they set them up. And they could, they had to be set up at certain spots a certain distance from this that and the other. I mean there were some strict regulations.

BRINSON: How long did the day go on?

RIDGEL: [Chuckles] It seemed like it went forever but of course it didn’t. And I can’t--let me see now--it wasn’t forever, it was such a few hours. His speaking and all that went on wasn’t for more than an hour. Now it was several hours getting together and once it broke up. Well, of course, you know it breaks up pretty fast. So it was a good half a day.

BRINSON: Was this the largest demonstration?

RIDGEL: That I have seen in Frankfort.

BRINSON: In Frankfort.

RIDGEL: The largest I had ever seen in Frankfort.

BRINSON: And then what happened after that day? Did the demonstrations, sit-ins continue? Boycotts, anything that you remember because we’re close to getting the `64 Civil Rights Act.

RIDGEL: Yeah, yeah, well, we, things were beginning to unfold really. So I, I honestly, I think after that we had to settle down and take a good breath, you know. [Chuckles] And I just don’t, I’m trying, let’s see, did we do any more marching after that? Because I think that was a real eye opener for everybody. I mean for everybody. Because these were all black people marching. These were black and white people arm in arm marching down, you know, in this procession going down Capitol Avenue. So, I suspect we went places in Frankfort and we were welcome. Or if we weren’t welcome, we were not thrown out. All of us tested the waters in places even in churches. Now you were never, I don’t think, refused church attendance. I don’t think.

BRINSON: Were you active in a church here?

RIDGEL: In my local church, yes.

BRINSON: Which church?

RIDGEL: I’m First Baptist on Clinton and High. I’ve been going to that church almost ever since I’ve been here. So I was active with that church.

BRINSON: To what degree were the ministers of local churches involved in, from the time you came here?

RIDGEL: Well, I really, I really was somewhat disappointed. As I mentioned before the, at the black Methodist Church the ministers seemed to have been very involved, working right with us. My minister was not at that time although he was the first one you see in the procession with, ah, [chuckles] and he’d shoot me if he heard me saying this, with Martin Luther King. He was right up there right beside him marching. But the, I did not feel that the ministers were encouraging the congregations in their churches to participate …

END OF SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE

BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE

RIDGEL: I would not want to, you know, hurt his feelings in any way.

BRINSON: Tell me how did your family and friends and colleagues feel about your advocacy?

RIDGEL: Well, I had a good, [laughing] had a good example of it in West Virginia. And this is when I went back to West Virginia teaching at West Virginia State and I opened a charge account at the main store. It was called Diamonds then. It’s not present there now. And I went to the store and what did I want to do? I don’t know whether, I don’t, I know you could try on things. Maybe, I don’t know what I was trying to get or what I was trying to do. It might have been trying to eat in the restaurant. They had a little restaurant. But anyway they refused whatever it was, and so I went down immediately and closed my account at the store and told them exactly why I was closing it. And I belonged, that was when I belonged to lots of little organizations, and I told everybody in these organizations I am not going to attempt, go do anything at that store anymore because they would not let me, and I think it was eat at the restaurant. And some of the ladies said, “Well, you knew, you couldn’t eat there. Why did you go?” You know that was the attitude I had, they had about that. I don’t know. I don’t think anybody thought badly about me, I mean, you know. They knew that I had the interest of other people at heart. And my husband too, and so we were, we thought alike there to the point that it was not just in terms of black and white but other things. Because here at Kentucky State when we first came here, we both could have lost our jobs because the minute they appointed a new president, Hill, and he wrote out the new contracts. And I was president at that time of the American Association of University Professors on the campus and I did not notice it but one of the members called my attention to the fact. These contracts are written different. Did you see the wording on these contracts? So we looked at them; we called an emergency meeting of the organization; we read the contract; we immediately voted to stop, nobody sign a contract, will not sign a contract until after we have had the president look at this and make whatever changes. Well, he, I think he disliked us. Although we were not really completely responsible, I just happened to be the president of the group, and my husband just happened to be a member. But he blamed us for getting the faculty to protest and the whole faculty, I would say ninety-five percent of them did.

BRINSON: Was there something, do you remember the specifics about the contract that was a concern?

RIDGEL: Well, it had, the concern, the concern was, one of the concerns, one of the concerns had to do with subordination, insubordination. It was a phrase relative to insubordination and you see, that is very, very difficult to prove. And although that statement had been in contracts before, you know, we, in fact the previous contract, the man probably copied the previous contract and maybe changed a word somewhere, and it made it all, you know, focus on that change of that word whatever that word. Made, gave a focus to this insubordination. And that was part of it. Now the other thing that we were really protesting was the fact that women who had come here with their husbands, had worked, like some of them had worked as long as fourteen years and still were instructors. They had not been promoted. They had not received tenure contracts. And so that was the other. Of course, Hill just inherited that and we were not anti-Hill. We were just anti that particular thing because I knew the Hills really before they came to Kentucky State. He was a chemist. His wife was a chemist, too. And I knew them through the science organizations that we attended regularly.

BRINSON: So President Hill came here about when? I don’t remember.

RIDGEL: About sixty, let me see, I came here in `60, so he probably, about `63, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Ok. I want to talk with you and ask some questions about Delta Sigma Theta.

RIDGEL: Yes.

BRINSON: Did you join the chapter when you moved to Frankfort?

RIDGEL: When I moved to Frankfort.

BRINSON: You transferred your membership, I guess.

RIDGEL: I transferred my membership almost immediately to the Frankfort Alumni Chapter that’s what we call it.

BRINSON: And what kind, tell me about the chapter here in Frankfort.

RIDGEL: Well, the chapter in Frankfort is a relatively small chapter. We’re probably larger right now than we’ve been in a long time. Helen Holmes was a Delta. I mean that’s one of my early acquaintances with her. In fact, she, I’m not sure, I think she was probably one of the charter members of the chapter. I don’t know for sure. But it is a chapter of a national organization which is a public service organization. And we are committed to do pubic service and I can go back there, when I first came here I didn’t see a whole lot we were doing at that time. In fact they were meeting and there were a couple of us who came in, the young Turks came in and started saying, “We’re not doing what we’re suppose to be doing.” But anyway Mrs. Holmes was happy, I guess to hear that cause she helped us develop a project that really wasn’t--enabled us to win an award at one of our national conventions. And the project was, what we called the River View Project. When they established, opened those apartments on Wilkinson Street, they, it was for low income, mostly--all black then. And you know they put those people in just bare wall places almost. And of course, what the sorority did was to find those people who really were real destitute. And we went in and we put up, we made curtains, draperies to put up to the windows. We went to the Salvation Army and other places and found furniture and repaired it as much as we could. And in fact some of the places we furnished dishes and whatever they needed to get their apartment. And that’s the kind of thing the sorority is supposed to do. We’ve always given scholarships.

BRINSON: And as I understand it, it’s primarily a membership of women either in college or alumni?

RIDGEL: Of a college, right.

BRINSON: Of women with education.

RIDGEL: Educated women, educated women and the root of the sorority is from the college, from the colleges. So that you are alumni member from your membership at an institution that had a chapter, although you can come in as a graduate member providing you meet certain qualifications.

BRINSON: Now in the sixties when you transferred your membership here would you, would you say the memberships was fifteen people?

RIDGEL: Probably.

BRINSON: Fifty people?

RIDGEL: No, no, no, probably, no, we’ve never been that large as fifty. There were probably about nine or ten members at that time. And in fact I have a picture here, I might can get to it real fast here to show you. I know where that is. Now this is not, this is not, some of these were not here when. But that’s Mrs. Holmes. This is Minnie Hitch who was in charge of Rosenwald.

BRINSON: Oh, okay. Are you in here?

RIDGEL: Here I am.

BRINSON: There you are, right.

RIDGEL: This is Mrs. Giles, Brown, Ms. Brown, Mrs. Brown—her husband--she taught in the public school, in the elementary school here. Her husband was coach, Coach Brown. This is Ethyl McLendon, you know this, what do that call that building? They recently named it after her. Now this is Richards, Alla Mae Richards. Her husband was one of the administrators. And I could have named all of these. Some of them, she’s passed, she’s the other Turk with me. She and I…

BRINSON: Now why did they call you Turk?

RIDGEL: Well, I just said that. They didn’t call us that. But they would get disgusted with us because we were, we probably at that time--she was not a, she wasn’t here then, nor was she--but at that time and some of the older ones aren’t here either; we could always see things that the chapter was suppose to be doing, that it was not doing. And we, of course, she was one of those who constantly said, where is ( ). “Well, I don’t care what ya’ll did or what you’re suppose to do.” Here she is right here. But she said, “No, we don’t want to do that.” “But you’re suppose to send a report in annually.” “I don’t care about those annual reports.”

BRINSON: Did the local members participate in the national conventions of the sorority?

RIDGEL: You’re supposed to. Well, you have, your chapter has to send a delegate to the national and the regional or your charter is rescinded. So, yes.

BRINSON: Okay, and during the sixties members would have participated in those regional or national conventions?

RIDGEL: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, you had to.

BRINSON: Okay. I know from my reading that during the sixties the membership nationally really increased substantially.

RIDGEL: Yes. Well, see, at that national level all that was being pushed locally was being pushed nationally, too. In other words Delta Sigma Theta Sorority stands out, well, it’s origin really, if you read that book, they were probably one of the first black protestors particularly for a women’s suffrage.

BRINSON: That’s right. And we’re referring to a book here called In Search of Sisterhood, Delta Sigma Theta and the Challenge of the Black Sorority Movement by Dr. Paula Giddy. It’s a very interesting book, very interesting history.

RIDGEL: Yes, it’s an interesting book.

BRINSON: I wonder during the sixties here, was the chapter in any way, as a chapter involved in any of the civil rights activities locally?

RIDGEL: Probably orally. They supported Sora Holmes. She was a sorority member. They supported her. They would give donations to causes. I don’t think there were too many who actually participated in the marches or in the sit-ins, but they did support, they would give donations to causes. And I would be willing to wager that some of those who were homeowners probably let their names go in as bonds people for the students.

BRINSON: Okay. In 1968 the national organization began to host what they called sensitivity sessions regarding skin color at the local level. Do you remember anything about that that you can share?

RIDGEL: I don’t remember. I don’t remember that specifically but I’m aware of it. And I don’t know, I’m not completely aware of anything going on right here but I’m sure that it did. And I did not necessarily have to know about it. But there’s always been a problem among blacks about different color, color differences. And in sixties particularly it became more sensitive when you’re talking about, when you--just conversion to black, the idea of black, black. At first it was almost the other way around, that the lighter the skin, you know, the more important you were. Certain, well, getting back to sororities and fraternities, the sororities anyway. Sometimes you’d go on some campuses, the lighter the skin the easier it is to get into this sorority. If you were very dark you couldn’t. I remember here and it looked as though only a black, black girl could become Miss Kentucky State University. She had to have very, very dark skin. She may or may not have all the other characteristics that you would like to see. She might have them. So blacks really needed to, and we had some very fair skinned blacks who really in their heart were, for the cause of the black more so than some of the others and we all had to realize that black is not just right here. It’s got to be in your mind and in your heart, really. And that was really a part of that sensitiveness.

BRINSON: And that was 1968 that the sororities sponsored those.

RIDGEL: Yes.

BRINSON: It is also about the time that we were beginning to see Black Power and Black Nationalism.

RIDGEL: That’s right.

BRINSON: Do you think that those cultural movements were influencing the sorority to think about these color sensitivity sessions?

RIDGEL: Well, when you say color sensitivity, they were trying to get us to realize that it was just not the color. It’s how you acted, what you did, how you thought, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Right. Ok. What happened for you at Kentucky State with your students about the time Black Power and Black Nationalism, did you see evidence of that among your students?

RIDGEL: Well, maybe among some but of course, I have always been one of those that I think that you deserve your place. I don’t care what color you are. And I always said that to the students. And of course, you know, almost, well, by the time I came here a few white students had already drizzled into the school. So we had white students. And we did have in some instances, you know, some of the black students reacted anti. They didn’t want them here. They didn’t need to be here, blah, blah, this. And I always told my students that, you know, I don’t care what color your skin is. I’m not looking at your skin color and I don’t want you to look at each other’s skin color. I said, I want to see what you are going to put down on that piece of paper for me. And so I don’t think they bothered me too much because they knew that it wasn’t no point messing with that lady. That’s what they called me “that lady”. [Laughing]

BRINSON: That lady, okay.

RIDGEL: No point in messing with that lady. No because I told them the very first day of school, I would tell them, you could be, as far as I’m concerned you could be white, black, purple, green, any color you want to be, but to me I want to see what you are going to bring me in this classroom. And I had no problem with the students.

BRINSON: I want to ask you a question that I don’t know the answer to.

RIDGEL: I may not either.

BRINSON: About the roles of women in the civil rights movement in the fifties and sixties. And as I have moved about interviewing women or I’ve been reading about women and there’s not much there to read, truthfully. But I’m struck by how many of the women who played an active role were married women but without children or single women, but they were women who didn’t have children at home that they had to also take care of one way or the other. Or they were young women who hadn’t yet married or whatever. How, what would you say to that? Is there any truth to that from what you recall?

RIDGEL: Yeah, it almost would have to be. Almost would have to be because really to tell you the little bit of moving around that I was doing, you had to have time. I wouldn’t have had time to fool with any kids at home or a husband at home. My husband, you know, was doing the same thing I was doing. So it’s understandable why it’s women who have no children, young women if there are any and there are a few in the world, yes, that’s understandable to me. Because if you had children that you needed to nourish you would not have time to go sitting in some restaurant because if you were working--see, a black woman had it kind of rough because she, if she was working she still had to see that these folks had--she didn’t have anybody to come in and cook for her or do anything else for her. She had to do all of it. But she had to work because she was trying to get to a place where she could give her children, she and her husband could give their children the things that they thought they ought to have. So she would support these civil rights movements. She might even let her children go along with somebody like Mrs. Holmes. But she couldn’t do it because of the position that she probably was in.

BRINSON: Okay. You mentioned some photos and taking your movie camera. One of the things that we are going to want to do is a museum exhibit up here at the new history center and so I’m looking for photos and artifacts and things that could go into a museum. Do you think you and your husband have things here?

RIDGEL: Well, we gave, we had some movies, in fact we probably still have some photographs somewhere of different things. But I don’t know whether these would be anything anybody would want other than us or not. But we did give our little eight millimeter film to Mrs. Ann Butler on the campus.

BRINSON: Okay.

RIDGEL: And we did, she had it blown up to sixteen millimeter. Now some of it was good. Some of it wasn’t. And she put it all together [clears throat]. And unless we have something on some of these things that we didn’t give her which we don’t know what’s on them because some of them never were spliced, you know. I don’t know that we have anything.

BRINSON: Okay. Well, and she’s on our advisory board for this project.

RIDGEL: And she has, she has, well, she has one or two little pictures showing the marching around Frisches when it was up here.

BRINSON: Do you know were there any newspaper articles that people kept or maybe programs or printed sheets that you handed out at different functions or …?

RIDGEL: Hmmm, there ought to be some somewhere.

BRINSON: Your husband’s marshal band that you have.

RIDGEL: Well, I used to know exactly where that was but I’m not sure now, because we did move, we took everything and went to Louisiana, uh-hmm.

BRINSON: Oh, you did. Now when did you do that?

RIDGEL: That was in the eighties and we came back about, I came back about three years later and he came back four years later. We knew we were coming back [clears throat] that was before Burch left, as president. Well, you don’t know him. That was one of the presidents here. And that’s a long story that should not be a part of this.

BRINSON: Okay, okay, no, no, that’s too late. Is there anything else that you’d like to share about this period during the sixties?

RIDGEL: I can’t think of anything else. I can’t think of anything else. But I will look around and think around. This lady is the one that was responsible for our getting involved in it.

BRINSON: That’s Helen Holmes.

RIDGEL: That’s Helen Holmes right there. That’s Helen Holmes and she was quite a dynamic lady, I thought.

BRINSON: How long has she been dead?

RIDGEL: I guess about three years and she was ninety something when she died.

BRINSON: Is there any of her family still living?

RIDGEL: No she didn’t have any family here. No, she was not born in this section at all.

BRINSON: Is her husband gone?

RIDGEL: Her husband left before she did.

BRINSON: Did she have any children?

RIDGEL: No children. She fit that same category that she had time to do this. Although I do remember her husband called me one night, “Where is my wife?” Because he knew that she and I were working together in this, and she--they had had all kinds of threats you know about, wanting to know why in the world was she--in fact they told him “Stop your wife from doing this kind of stuff. Don’t you realize what she is doing?” And so when she wasn’t at home after a certain hour he was just very upset. He called me “Where is my wife?” I said, “Well, I don’t know.” I said, “I haven’t seen her since.” And I told him when I had seen her. And he said, “Well, you know, you’re going to have to go out and find her.” Well, I didn’t know where to go find her, really. [Chuckles] But finally she reappeared and I just don’t remember how she reappeared. But she was doing the very thing that I had told you about. She was going around to homes, people who, trying to convince them that they would not lose their property. See, some of the people had an idea they’d lose everything they had if they signed as a bonds person. And she convinced them, had to convince them, that it was alright to sign if you owned property and that she would insure them that these students would not run off without answering to the call of the court. And she was able to convince quiet a few.

BRINSON: Now you mentioned threats. Talk about that a little bit.

RIDGEL: About what?

BRINSON: About there might have been, he was concerned about threats. Was there any Klan or white citizen or …?

RIDGEL: Well, I didn’t receive any personally myself. But I understand from conversations with her that they did threaten them. You know I don’t know that they said, “I’m going to shoot you. I’m going to kill you.” But “you’re going to be sorry,” you know, that kind of threat. You know if somebody tells you if you don’t stop this you’re going to be sorry, you don’t know what they’re talking about really. And of course, I don’t think he did or she did but of course she was determined to go on with the fight. And she was ridiculed quite a bit by both blacks and whites for, why doesn’t she stay at home and do blah, blah, blah, you know.

BRINSON: In Lexington one of the women I interviewed told me that because her name was out there publicly that she and her husband used to have go out in the dark before the sun came up and clean up the yard. That people would go by and trash it. Was there anything like that in Frankfort?

RIDGEL: I don’t think. There was nothing that I know about. I know of nothing like that that happened in Frankfort.

BRINSON: Okay. Was there any indication that the FBI was keeping a file on anybody here who was active?

RIDGEL: I have no information on anything like that.

BRINSON: Tapping telephones, nothing that you ever.

END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE TWO

BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE TWO

BRINSON: Might still be living who were active that I should interview.

RIDGEL: Not necessary, I can, this lady was here. That’s Giles, Mrs. Giles, Mrs. Gloria Giles. I don’t remember her being real active.

BRINSON: I called her.

RIDGEL: Uh-hmm, she was around during that time. I think, I don’t think there are many.

BRINSON: She worked at the library.

RIDGEL: She worked at the library, right.

BRINSON: And she moved here in 1959 from Pennsylvania.

RIDGEL: Right, that’s right, that’s the lady.

BRINSON: And I think she told me that she had already been interviewed and just didn’t want to.

RIDGEL: Didn’t want to be. Well, she’s kind of, a little bit, maybe a little more reticent than I; and she was not involved in this movement as such. Although her husband might have taken, a you know, kind of a side role at that time. Now he’s much more active now than he was then.

BRINSON: Now maybe I’m recalling this incorrectly. Maybe it was her husband who has been interviewed. But in any event she didn’t think she wanted to be part of this.

RIDGEL: Uh-hmm, now what other lady’s name do you have? I’ll see if I know her.

BRINSON: I just have the two of you.

RIDGEL: Oh, is that so?

BRINSON: And those names were given to me by Sharon Jackson.

RIDGEL: Yeah, I know Sharon and of course, Sharon is relatively knew around here. See, it was mostly men who were, except for Helen Holmes, it was mostly men who were the leaders, you know.

BRINSON: That’s interesting because in other communities in Kentucky it, in some of them anyway it was more the women than it was the men. Is there something about Frankfort as the state capitol or the fact that Kentucky State is here that there might have been more men, do you think?

RIDGEL: Well, could be any or all of those. [Laughing] I don’t know but as I think about it, I don’t, I just can’t, well, of course you have a lot of things to think about when you think about a woman. And you mentioned some of those, their children, their job. Uhmm, if you are talking about people on the campus they are there at, they are in these jobs. I told you the women were just there. I mean although they were working they weren’t given much money. They weren’t elevated to positions. You see, you had a lady who was, who should have been in a much higher level position because of her brilliance, the role she could have played. And she left, left her husband here. I’m talking about Fletcher. Did you hear about Winona Fletcher? Well, she was here when I came here. She was an English teacher. She was, in fact, she was in drama, in theater. And she wanted to play a much more important role in the drama area, but the--nobody would let her. I guess the president of the college would not let her. And she got this offer at Indiana University and she went to Indiana University and was Professor of Drama before she retired from Indiana University. And she lives over here or lived over here, she doesn't live over there. I mean she doesn’t live there now. The other people, Helen Axom was a very quiet lady. Now she would put a bug in your ear. In fact she is the one who told me about the contracts that the president issued that time. So she would put bugs in ears but she may not get out there and you know, wave the banner. So I can’t really think of any ladies.

BRINSON: Okay. There’s the argument, if you will, that out of the civil rights movement came the women’s movement. And that would have been late sixties, early seventies. Did you see any evidence of that at Kentucky State, particularly with women you described?

RIDGEL: Well, not, okay, I told you about this band, not signing contracts. Well, what resulted from that was that the women got, those women who deserved tenure, got tenure. The women got promotions. So I, in the meantime, later, had moved two positions higher. My salary ended up just about equal to the salary of the people at the same level as I was. And I think that was true of a lot of the women at Kentucky State. So--and that was partly because of the work that we did in AAUP, that’s the American association.

BRINSON: How long did it take you to accomplish that equity?

RIDGEL: Well, it didn’t take, well, for me, uhmm, it didn’t take more than two or three years before I got, ended up getting, well, a salary that was equivalent to the other people at my same level. You see, when I came here I was the only Ph.D. who was not head of a department. I was, even, there was another woman Ph.D. who was head of the sociology department, Evelyn Johnson was her name. And but I was the only one, she was Dr. Evelyn Johnson. So she was in a chairperson position. And I had my Ph.D. in zoology, and my salary was considerably lower because they were all heads of something. But when they proceeded to get more Ph.D.s in, then my salary was equivalent or maybe even a little higher than some of those others. Then finally I became the head of the department and of course my salary was pretty equal to all of theirs. So at the college I don’t think we had that much disparity. But you did here about it on some of the other campuses where the women salary was significantly lower than the man’s salary. And national statistics show that in all kinds of work that women…

BRINSON: Right, and that’s still not equal today.

RIDGEL: That’s right, still not equal. So the women still have a fight. And this is what our sorority is partly about and that’s making certain when we see it that we can find ways to get women in an equal role. They’re supposed to be equal, in an equal role.

BRINSON: What kinds of projects is the sorority involved in today?

RIDGEL: Well, the sorority has what they call their Five Point Program: education, international affairs, community service, commitment to the community. See I may not get all five of them. Did I say international? I said international. Well, there are five. I must have left something out. There are five points that we try, we’re interested in education, strongly interested in education. Sisterhood, I don’t know that I said sisterhood.

BRINSON: No, you didn’t.

RIDGEL: Sisterhood is another commitment. International service and we do, we have chapters that are in Africa and we have some chapters, we have a chapter in Hawaii, you know, we’ve got them strung, Germany. And we also have projects that touch those areas. We built a room on a hospital in Liberia, Liberia? Yes. And that’s the Delta Sigma Theta wing.

BRINSON: How about locally?

RIDGEL: Local, here? Locally, we have right today we are doing what we call a Delta Academy and we are taking young girls, eleven to fourteen. Those are the ages of the young girls. And we, young black girls, we’re interested only in young black girls. And they say, oh, that’s prejudice. Well, yes, it might be, but we’re interested right now in looking at young black girls. And we’re trying to be role models for them and we’re trying to acquaint them with certain aspects of almost every academic field that you could imagine. And last week it was my project and I asked the head of the math and science department on the campus, Dr. Bivens and his wife, who is a medical doctor in Louisville, to come. And I said, I want you to tell your story to these girls. I want you to tell your story and just be very forceful, being very honest in every aspect. And those kids really enjoyed that program. Now the week before that I think they went to the computer lab and they did things. So we are working right here with young girls. And we are supposed to have about fourteen girls. Now there were not fourteen in my little assembly but we say, if we have, three girls that stick. This has been going on all this year. If we have, if we can just get somebody to stick through the year and some of them we can take on next year with another group, they call that the Betty Shaboz. Did you ever hear about?

BRINSON: Yeah.

RIDGEL: We call it the Betty Shaboz Delta Academy. She was a Delta and she was interested in young people.

BRINSON: You said when we talked earlier that at that point the chapter in Frankfort was the only one. Are there any other Delta chapters in Kentucky?

RIDGEL: Oh, yes, oh, yes. There are about a dozen chapters throughout Kentucky. And they are doing all similar things because we are all suppose to be doing that Five Point Program. Now all of us can’t do all of the points sometimes. But we do as many of them as we can. And everybody is supposed to be working on this Delta Academy working with these young girls to see what, and we give scholarships to Kentucky State. Every year we give at least one, two scholarships. We give one to a member of the undergraduate chapter at Kentucky State who has made a certain average and who is in need of money. The scholarship isn’t all that much, five hundred dollars. And then we give another scholarship to an entering freshman who we think has potential. So we give two scholarships. We also give an award. We don’t give it every year, but almost every year, to what we call the Delta Citizen of the Year. And this is to, although we call it, the Citizen of the Year, it’s not necessarily a Delta. It could be anybody in the community who has met certain requirements that we have set for this citizenship award. We do that.

BRINSON: Can you give me some examples of people that you’ve made that award to? You.

RIDGEL: Long, long time ago.

BRINSON: Well, I’m not surprised.

RIDGEL: Well, I have gotten the award. Mr. Coldfield has gotten the award. My preacher, K.L. Moore has received the award. Mrs. Ellis, do you remember Mrs. Ellis? You may not know her. Now she is a lady, if she’s not too sick, she is certainly one of those people that you ought to interview because she has been here a long, long time. Her name is Ellis, what is her first name? If you just said Mother Ellis, you know, that people could tell you who she was. I think it is Mary but I’m not certain. But she’s been here a long, long time and has been involved. Now she was one of those, who participated, has participated in most of the civil rights activities. She has been, she…

BRINSON: Could you help me find a phone number for her?

RIDGEL: Yeah, I can look in the book and see if I can find it. Her picture is out at senior citizens. She’s one of the seniors, in fact she even won the, what do they call that award, the Penny Award? Oh that the United Way sponsors. They have this …

BRINSON: Sort of the Volunteer of the Year Award.

RIDGEL: Yes, yes, yes, yes, but she does a lot, has done. She has not been well recently. So I don’t know how well she is. Let me see if I’ve got my book right here.

BRINSON: I’m going to stop this interview now. Okay.

RIDGEL: Okay.

BRINSON: And we may have to come back at some point. Would that be all right?

RIDGEL: All right, well, I mean, yes, we could, yeah.

END OF INTERVIEW