Oral History Interview with Marlene Payne

MARLENE PAYNE: I'm Marlene Ellis Payne from Berea, Kentucky. It is May the fifteenth, nineteen ninety-nine. We are at the Hindman Settlement School.

JESS STODDART: Marlene, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, your family, your education, things like that?

PAYNE: I'm a Berea College graduate. I finished in sixty-one, went off to Iowa State University in Ames, for a couple of years. And then went to Norway to study on a Fulbright, in child psychology, sociology. Came back and taught for three years at Iowa State University and then went off to Peace Corp[s] in Malaysia for a couple of years. I was in teacher training in Kuala Lumpur and my future husband, whom I had known for a number of years. I met him as a freshman at Berea, was also 1:00in Malaysia, but he was in the Borneo part of Malaysia. And before I went I penned a telegram that said, "say yes," and I said, "wait," because I wanted to be a volunteer myself And we ended up getting married sixteen, seventeen years after we met each other. And we have a son, Kenneth, who's twenty-one and Deborah is nineteen.

J.S.: And did you originally come from this part of this country, from eastern Kentucky?

PAYNE: I was born in Latonia, Kentucky, but I grew up in Shelby County.

J.S.: Well, now tell me how you happened to get associated with the Hindman Settlement School and serve on its board?

PAYNE: I was living in Perry County and working with the Hazard Family Health Services, with the Appalachian Regional Hospital and the word was put out that I was interested in working in the child development area with a number of institutions in the eight county area, the KRADD area, the Kentucky River Area Development District. I was doing in-service 2:00training for nurses on child development and holding workshops in the area. And so they asked if I would be on the board in October of seventy-five. So, I've been on for almost a quarter of a century.

J.S.: Well, you've seen a lot of changes during that time.

PAYNE: Lots of changes, and it's been fun.

J.S.: Well, maybe the question to ask you then is what do you think are the most important things that have happened during those twenty-five years that you have served on the board?

PAYNE: Well, we started out, there had been a Kindergarten program here on the campus. And we felt that there should be a community program for children, and so that was the reason that I got asked to be on in the first place. And of course, Hindman has always provided things that weren't fully available to everybody, from the beginning of it's history. And so child care was one of the things that was really important. And that's moved on now to the public schools and we've moved on in different areas. But that's what originally got me on the board, was 3:00my interest in child development.

J.S.: And had you known about the Hindman Settlement School before that time? I mean was that--it--[was] something that was part of your knowledge as you were growing up or over at Berea?

PAYNE: Not really. I'd heard of it, but it wasn't really someplace that I'd been. But it has been an exciting place to be and watch develop.

J.S.: And so, the Kindergarten program was eventually turned over to the public school system?

PAYNE: Kindergarten and early childhood, right. Many of the school systems in Kentucky are now going toward preschool programs for children who have special needs.

J.S.: Any other of the projects that have come about in the last twenty-five years, especially stick in your mind?

PAYNE: Of course, the James Still Learning Center is very special. I think the dyslexic program is a really important part of eastern Kentucky learning.

J.S.: Why don't you talk about that a little bit more at length?

PAYNE: Well, there used to be a weaving program 4:00in what is now the James Still Learning Center and I can remember when those looms were still set up. And so, it took some vision to be able to see it expanded into a program for children, and to get co-operation from this area to be able to do it, as a substitute for public education, which wasn't meeting the needs of some children who had dyslexic learning problems. So, we watched it from the time it was gutted out until it was a functioning building and watching through the programs. And becoming computer literate and all the wonderful things that they do at this point in time.

J.S.: Yes, I think I'm correct that, at least initially there were real problems about the fact that this is a private non-profit, and it made it quite difficult to be able to serve the public school systems.

PAYNE: The schools are not willing to give up their ADA's, their daily attendance money that they get, currently it is called the SEEK program [state education funding]. And it's the reimbursement program and it involves thousands 5:00of dollars when you consider how many children would be going to a private source.

J.S.: But that does now seem to have been ...

PAYNE: Some schools are willing to do that.

J.S.: ... Overcome. So, that is good to know. Let me ask you about how you see the role of the board, and whether you see it having changed over the last twenty-five years. From when you first came on, to the way that it operates today.

PAYNE: The board has changed. I think we were more of just a yes board at the beginning, people with [a] vision from many different places. But I think Mike, and I helped to choose Mike and I'm really proud that we did, Mike Mullins. That Mike now, is racing ahead of us in all the ideas of things that are possible. And it is a good example of a settlement school that did change 6:00with the times and saw what the needs were, and moved out of the things that could be picked up by the public schools, like art and music and kept moving on into like dyslexia. And that Mike has been willing to have the vision to change as we needed to change. And now we're having Knott County, the GED program picked up by the local college. And this is another example of something that we carried for a while, but whenever someone can do it, then that relieves us to do something new and another need.

J.S.: You were probably here toward the very end of the boarding program, is that correct? Were they [there] still boarding students here when you came onto the board?

PAYNE: Hmm, that's a good question. I remember children living in the building where we meet, but I'm not sure if that was just a summer program or ...

J.S. : So it may have already been gone.

PAYNE: It may have already ended, yes.

J.S.: I was asking mainly, because if you had been part of that transition, I would have been 7:00interested in seeing how the decision was made.

PAYNE: I don't think so. I think that was pretty much phased out by then.

J.S. : Well again, a dynamic leader is obviously one of the ways in which the relationship of board and executive director is changed. Anything else about the way the board operates, as opposed to let's say, the people who were on the board?

PAYNE: Well, there have always been some wonderful people like Joe Graves, and Wibbie Pratt, who have also been on a long time, who had the vision. Wibbie represents the local interest, because his family is from here and he's grown up here. And so he has that special touch of seeing how things needed to change and providing an historical connection. Glen Leveridge is a good example of a more recent board member who sees the vision of being able to fundraise, and he's helped us to get inspired 8:00to get the funds to go ahead and do matching money and whatever to build, to renovate for our kitchen and our restroom area and to really improve those facilities and upgrade.

J.S. : Now you must have come onto the board when Lionel Duff was the executive director.

PAYNE: Yes, exactly.

J.S.: And what kind of activities were going on at that time?

PAYNE: Minimal, in fact, someone made the comment that it was a little bit like Lionel had come here to retire. He may have been a very fine person in his time, but we needed some new energy.

J.S.: I'm kind of interested in the selection process that brought Mike to the Hindman Settlement School. Could you talk a little bit more about that, how you went out to look for someone? What qualities you were looking for?

PAYNE: Mike came to me. He is a go-getter. And he called and said, "I am interested in that position."

J.S.: Were you head of the nominating committee? Or the ..

PAYNE: I had something to do with getting Mike involved in being selected. And I'm proud of that.

J.S. : And again, 9:00it's hard to look back now, because he's so good. He's worked out so well.

PAYNE: He's so much a part, he's so much a part of this program.

J.S.: I'm wondering what were you looking for? Can you recall the kind of qualities, since you clearly had some that you felt didn't have the energy or the vision for the future? I just wondered what kind of things...

PAYNE: From the mountains. He has the education to go back to the mountains and being able to see something different from what has been there before. He has the vision. He has a wonderful family. Frieda has been a wonderful asset to our program, just as a support person, and always being there, and children that sort of grew up on the campus. That part of it, affirmed our decision. But from the very beginning he had the education, the concern for eastern Kentucky, the vision, all of those things. The willingness to go out and speak about our program, 10:00to meet women in the DAR [Daughters of the American Revolution], to meet community leaders, to coalesce with other agencies and programs and see, what can we do together. If we can't do it as just the Hindman Settlement School, what can we do as a co-operative program with the library, with the community, with the college, with whatever.

J.S.: It sounds to me as though, the involvement with and the support from the DAR has increased pretty dramatically.

PAYNE: Exactly.

J.S.: Could you speak a little bit about how that came about?

PAYNE: Well, Mike has been willing to go on the road with our story. And it's a very true and credible and interesting and fascinating story. And when women have heard about it through their programs, they wanted to be part of this. And he's invited them to our campus. They can see things in action. He's actively involved the DAR on our board. We 11:00always have representatives now from the DAR. I don't think that was probably true before Mike came on board. His schedule even now, is so heavy with going to many different states and telling the story. So, the more people who hear about us, are excited about what we do.

J.S.: It sounds as though Mike Mullins is an almost indispensable kind of person. I know that the school is now looking for at least another additional employee. There is certain areas it seems to me, that where there is a need to expand beyond what is humanly possible for one person to do, and I just wondered what you think about certain areas that another person could be trained to work in, to take some of the load off of him?

PAYNE: Well, you can't clone Mike Mullins. You can only divide up jobs and hopefully get somebody to cover some things, so that he can do other things that he enjoys doing. He would like to follow up 12:00our potential donors, who would like to know more about our story. He just really doesn't have time to do this with all the things that he is doing. So, I am glad that he is learning about delegation and involving people. But, he has always had a wonderful team. He didn't do it alone, but he's always been a wonderful leader to a wonderful team.

J.S. : Yes, maybe I should just ask you even if you can to elaborate on the staff and the staffs relationship with Mike, with the executive director. That's something that certainly has impressed me, as almost unique.

PAYNE: Mike gives people credit. And many of the wonderful things that happen on this campus are inspirational, they have been inspired by individual leaders that stuck in there with us. Lois Weinberg has been on our program for a long time with 13:00her interest in the dyslexic children. It seems like, people who come, tend to stay a long time and give some stability and commitment to the program. And then we have the wonderful enrichment of our Mennonite volunteers, who have just been indispensable.

J.S.: Yes they have been wonderful. Indeed, I am going to interview at least one of the volunteers, so we have that aspect of the program in as well.

PAYNE: Good.

J.S.: Do you see the role of the board changing at all in the future, as we go into the next century of the school's life?

PAYNE: Well, certainly a twenty million dollar grant to the community is going to change the nature of how things operate. But I think we keep going back to the history of a hundred years ago, that it was originally, primarily for mountain children, the people in the community, for their education and a remembrance of their heritage. I think that can continue through 14:00its many transformations. And as we go into committing more toward college, as more and more people get their elementary grade school, their high school education and move towards GEDs if they didn't finish their high school. They are now ready for the college level. And so we can take that on as a cooperative venture with the branch that is being built here. And I find that very exciting, because I think it fits exactly into the role that was intended historically.

J.S.: Yes, I guess I should just ask you what you think about the new project, the community redevelopment project, that is just currently in the works, and which the school has just donated some land for.

PAYNE: I'm excited about it, and I think we are doing what we need to be doing. I think it is a wonderful cooperative event with the community. I think that there are many different parts that are working together to come up with something. The whole is going to be bigger than any of the sum of the parts. We are going to have a wonderful new library that can serve all the community as well as the college, 15:00our educational needs. It's going to be a wonderful program.

J.S. : Is there anything that has happened during this time period that you would do differently if you could? Looking back on it as a board member or as an interested person in the settlement school. We always like to know about the achievements, but if there is anything that you think, perhaps something could have gone in a different direction or been done differently, that is also interesting, I think.

PAYNE: At the Hindman Settlement School, I have been thrilled with the things that have happened. Being on the nominating committee, maybe I should have been a little bit harsher about people who didn't make commitments once they were on the board and didn't make it a priority. That we should have said, "well if this is really not a priority, you can help us in other ways, but we need to open up that slot of a board member for somebody who is going to be really active." And there are some few people who have not made the commitment.

J.S.: Maybe I should ask you, because I haven't asked anyone else, really how 16:00the process of asking someone to join the board. What happens that brings an offer to serve on the board to someone?

PAYNE: From your standpoint, I think that you gave a wonderful idea of the commitment to the history. That you had been a part of this through your family and that you would be able to support us with an historical overview. People bring different talents. We like to have, well, John Priest has been wonderful with his contributions from the construction and building and mining industry, and sharing resources. Loyal Jones has been wonderful for his knowledge of the Appalachian area and being our chair for a number of years. Different people have brought different talents. And Mike will often recommend people who could fill a slot, but perhaps some of the slots should have turned over a little faster. And then we would, elected some people who, just never did come 17:00and we had to find other people to fill those slots.

J.S.: I guess I in part was asking a more technical question as well, because I was actually sort of wondering about the process. Is it more likely that Mike will come up with names or that you might know someone ... ?

PAYNE: No, we're invited, we're invited to come up with names also, members can also come up with names.

J. S.: And when you are doing that, is there often a kind of a screen, that we could really use a person who has some expertise here or who has some contacts in this area or that? Do you do that kind of thing? Or do you look just at the person, whatever they happen to be especially skilled in?

PAYNE: We don't have a formal list of, we need one preacher, we need one coal miner, we need whatever, but we do try to be well rounded with local people, with people from business or development capacities. It has been wonderful to have Lee Smith as an author and to work with our adult educators. It's been 18:00a fun part of being on the board to have her expertise.

J. S.: So, if you do lose somebody who provided a particular kind of a skill...

PAYNE: We might look for something like that.

J.S.: ... then you might try to look in that same general area?

PAYNE: Exactly.

J.S.: Because I think that is interesting to know how people actually come to the board, as well as how they see their role.

PAYNE: The DAR, of course, is going to have some slots and whoever is the leader at that particular time will then move in.

J.S.: Another area, that certainly has interested me is the area of the endowments. I don't know if you have worked at all with the building up of the financial and the endowment capacities of the school. But I think that of course, has changed quite a lot in the last twenty-five years. And I just wondered again, how the contacts 19:00are made or whatever that lead to major increases in the endowments or bequests or other things like that.

PAYNE: Well, I was here when they did the major Carl Perkins Endowment Fund and went to the fundraiser in Washington, D.C. at the Library of Congress, the DAR Library. And it was just wonderful to be part of that event, in which we eventually got almost a half a million dollars. Unfortunately , Carl Perkins died untimely, he had an untimely death. And he was very much interested in education in eastern Kentucky and was a wonderful support for that. But meeting people like Tip O'Neal, who supported the concept and being involved in that. And it was a little taste of Appalachia right there in Washington, D.C., that we were able to tap into some resources. And such things as, Ann Weatherford hosted an event in Berea. She was a former board member and was the wife of the President 20:00of Berea College at that time. And she hosted an event in which she invited major potential donors to come. But certainly a lot of times, we don't really realize the effect we are having, but just being open and sharing the story with people. I think a good example today at our board meeting, was having somebody to donate forty-six thousand dollars just on the chance that they knew somebody who loved to be here at Hindman Settlement School. That a lot of times, it is the smaller contacts that make the difference.

J.S.: It is also clear that often times very large sums are given, but for very specific projects, that don't go into the endowment.

PAYNE: Exactly.

J.S.: They go fix up a building or that kind of thing. So, the fact that the endowment has been continuing to grow as well, is quite important.

PAYNE: I think so.

J.S. : Well, 21:00I guess, this is a very general and board question, but I am wondering sort of how you see the future of the Hindman Settlement School as its nearing its centennial, and off into the second century. Do you see major .... you've already mentioned the change that...

PAYNE: Well in a quarter of a century, we've moved from focusing on young children all the way through to having a branch of the community college right here on campus, being voting to let them use land from Hindman Settlement School for their, part of their twenty million dollar project. So, I see the expansion of that and those support services, probably the technology is going to continue to grow. I don't see our moving out of the program for dyslexia anytime in the near future. I don't see Kentucky schools picking up that need. And I would love to see, perhaps using our own program as a model for other schools. Inviting schools in to see what can be done with children who have dyslexia, who have reading 22:00problems, to see that these children as individuals have a great deal to offer.

J.S.: Have you gotten a sense of, I know in the old days there was a rather close tie between Berea and the Hindman Settlement School. And I just wondered, since you live in Berea, whether that tie has been maintained in any way in the last twenty-five years, if you are aware of a kind of support tie and that kind of thing?

PAYNE: I think that that is one area that we could work on developing. I would love to see some of the education students to come down from, particularly the elementary education program and observe what is happening in the James Still Learning Center. Certainly Loyal, who was a long time teacher in Berea, a professor and 23:00is, has been our chair for a number of years. I was on the faculty of Berea. Ann Weatherford, of course, was the president's wife for a time at Berea, and had a personal interest. So, we've have individual connections, but I think we could do more of a formal connection.

J.S.: I didn't think to ask you, but I am now going to ask you, I guess you probably came onto the board when Elizabeth Watts was still attending board meetings.

PAYNE: Oh, she was wonderful. I loved her. [Laughing] J.S.: Why don't you tell me about Elizabeth? Tell me about her.

PAYNE: Elizabeth was certainly ahead of her times. And she knew what going through hard times was really like. And she appreciated the support of Billy Miller Smith and the bank of Hindman(*) and now with his daughter Valerie, since his recent death. Elizabeth could ask the pointed questions, like when we first put a library in the building where it is now, 24:00with the weight of the books, do you think we have adequate support for it. [Laughing] All those books and shelves of books. And it was good that she could think about those things. And she certainly was first and foremost for individual children and caring about children and education. And she certainly was ahead of her time. It was wonderful having her expertise all through, most of the time that I was on the board, until recently. And I went down to help celebrate her hundredth birthday when she lived in the retirement home. And many of the Hindman Settlement School staff and board members went down to help her celebrate that.

J.S.: Did you, have you met any of the other old-timers? I think probably most of them were gone, but I don't know if anyone like Ann Cobb was still around.

PAYNE: I didn't, no.

J.S.: They probably were gone by that time.

PAYNE: Yeah.

J.S.: Well, as I said to you off [the] record, if you have any special insights or stories or little things that you would like to add to your interview, this is probably 25:00the time to do that.

PAYNE: Well, I don't know if anybody has mentioned that Elizabeth Watts was a bridesmaid at the age of a hundred and one.

J.S.: That's wonderful.

PAYNE: At her nursing home, and I thought that was just terrific, that she could be a bridesmaid and it's never too late.

J.S.: That's a wonderful story, because I do recall from one of her letters to her mother, that two former students pop in here one Saturday afternoon. They had decided to get married. And so she and Ann Powell ran around and were their witnesses and then had a little get together for them over at Orchard House. She's used to, well that was a fast one, but in any case she's used to organizing weddings, like organizing everything else. That's a wonderful story and if you've got any others of them, we'd love to hear them, whether about Miss Watts, Mike or anybody else.

PAYNE: Just on the spot I can't think of any, but if I do think of them, I will share them with you.

J.S.: Okay, 26:00well I appreciate this very much.

PAYNE: Thank you.

J. S.: Thank you.

END OF INTERVIEW