Oral History Interview with James Phelps

CASSIE MULLINS: Turn this on and get it going.

JAMES PHELPS: Okay.

C.M.: Today's date is January the seventh nineteen ninety-nine, and I'm with Mr. James Phelps. And I guess Jim, let's just kind of start from the beginning. Tell a little bit about yourself and how you ended up in Hindman.

PHELPS: Okay, I had been in graduate school at the University of Kentucky and had completed one degree and was actually working on another, when funding ran out. And I started looking for work and at that particular time, which was in the fall of seventy-two, the job market was very, very grim. There were hardly any jobs at all. I think I had two hundred plus applications going at one time. And I met one of my friends named Ron Ketchum, who was one of my 4-H companions from earlier years. And he told me that there was a possibility with the 1:00[Kentucky Cooperative] Extension Service, and for me to go for an interview. I went to the main office in Lexington and set up an interview with them. And they explained to me there was two possibilities, one was in Pikeville and the other was in Hindman, but they thought that the Pikeville position wasn't going to be available until much later. So, I started the interview process. I arrived here for an interview on the fifth of February seventy-three and I came on the field on February twenty-six seventy three. I knew about Hindman.

C.M.: Let me move this, it turns real easy. I just want to make sure I get your voice. That ought to work fine. Okay, go ahead, sorry.

PHELPS: I knew about Hindman from some class studies from elementary school. And I knew a little bit about the settlement school, but it was very limited. And when 2:00I came here, they gave me a room at Westover, just over across the way here. And then stored all my things room I was in, I got moved into the main apartment, after we got some things organized, so that I had some space.

C.M.: Yeah, now where were you from originally?

PHELPS: Okay, I'm from Somerset, Kentucky. I grew up in Pulaski County on a small farm, truck crops, tobacco, livestock. I went to Berea College. Graduated from high school in sixty-three and was at Berea until actually sixty-eight. 3:00It took me longer than four years to get through. And then at UK [University of Kentucky]. before I came here. Twelve, I am the oldest of twelve children, and my dad and mom ....My mom always worked at home, but my dad worked as a warehouse foreman from forty-eight until almost the time he passed away. Plus he was also an electronics technician.

C.M.: That's a big family.

PHELPS: Yes. Four boys and eight girls.

C.M.: And so you came to Hindman. Now when you came for this job, what job did you come to do?

PHELPS: Okay, this was actually like an experimental job that Lionel Duff had worked with Bill Frances and some other people, I think, the extension board. And Vinnie Dyer to the best of my knowledge, was the person working with that. 4:00And they wanted to have a person working with youth here, but there was not enough money in the budget for it. And so they looked for collaboration with an organization to do that. And that organization happened to be the settlement school. And it was for a six months probationary period and then I was to be reviewed and either yes or no at the end of six months. Was basically how it started. I was the had worked with that project before, but she was like an intern type position. And other extension agents, obviously had worked with youth work. But I was the first for the first full time. And 5:00I think two thousand dollars was the part that the settlement school paid, plus the living here and then the extension board paid the rest.

C.M.: So when you say, working with youth, was that the 4-H program then or was that merely you were here to work with the youth at the school?

PHELPS: What the assessment was, I was to work with 4-H programming, everything from small community clubs, like .... An example would be at Caney Creek with the Baptist church over there. They had a Caney Clovers program. That would be an example of that. And then we had an number of other satellite programs at Irishman and Decoy, 6:00Clear Creek, just to name a few. They were all community-based type programming. They did challenge me to start working with the schools. That was something that had not been done before to any great extent. Pat Decorsey had worked with a number of the schools before on a limited basis, but obviously not a full time job, you can't do a lot. So, my challenge was to integrate 4-H programming within the schools, and build, especially programs like camping, doing project work, demonstrations and activities, were some challenges. Where the settlement school came in to play was to, lot of times, you had to get kids from one place to another. And the van became a very, very important 7:00part of that process. So those are the, that's the nitty gritty of the challenge and of course you are faced with many, many problems along the way. And you reevaluate and go back and try again. We are continuing to this very day to work with in school programming, which is a little bit unique within youth programming, as a whole, but it is a legitimate part of4-H youth work.

C.M.: So, in those early years, as you said, you came here, you started working and going into the schools, working with these youth programs. I know just from knowing you all my life and talking about different things, did you ever live in the boy's dorm, maybe help 8:00with that some?

PHELPS: I definitely did. When I first came here, in Westover, I was technically in the boys' s dorm. And when I could be here at night, I was to be more like the supervisor and if there was a problem to let the appropriate person in charge know. And they would come in on Sunday afternoon late, and I would be more or less on duty when I got back from church in the evening. And then when I could be here in the evening, I was to help with that too. The other thing was to actually help co-ordinate their schedules and that included dish washing duty and all this kind of thing.

C.M.: That sounds kind of interesting to find out about. What was that like? I've gotten a perspective of course, of the very early years, even up to the sixties. And so now we are getting to the seventies, when there aren't as many students here.

PHELPS: There was about thirty, thirty to thirty-three, best I can remember.

C.M.: What were your duties with that, with organizing dish washing schedules and things?

PHELPS: Breakfast was around seven AM., if I remember correctly. I know at least I came over probably a quarter to seven. 9:00And the students would get here and the cook would have breakfast ready and they would eat and they would hurriedly wash the dishes. And then they had to be off. They had to get to school. And for the most of them school was just walking across the bridge to the old Hindman High School. Of course, they were there during the noon were washing dishes, Mrs. Earp helped with the thing, which was like a study hall in the evening. And I would be available to answer questions when they were doing their homework and things of that nature. Sometimes on Sunday evening, Mrs. Earp had a program she called Christian Education. 10:00And she would do that, and I helped her with a number of programs. And we usually did that in the Great Hall. And that would be after they had had dinner. The only other duty that I can remember, was basically to check out their dormitories. I guess one of the amusing things was, these kids were constantly hungry, and try to control. Snacks were no big deal in their little rooms or whatever. But sometimes they made an attempt to get into the food supplies in the kitchen. [Laughing] C.M.: Yeah, I'd say so. Boys, they want to eat all the time.

PHELPS: Yeah, it was mostly boys that did that. Of course, I did not deal with the girls. And right now, I can't think of who the lady was, Jean Jackson at one time helped with the girls. But it was an interesting 11:00experience to look back on it and see some of the young people now that are grown up and meet them on the street or whatever.

C.M.: What was dorm life like? Did you have many problems?

PHELPS: The biggest problem was trying to get them to bed at night. And then they wanted .... We actually had a T.V. over there.

C.M.: Oh really?

PHELPS: At that time there was limited cable service and there was a T.V. over there. And it was a battle sometimes to get them to go to bed and leave the T. V., and a battle to get them up in the morning. Sometimes you'd have to roust them up to three times and the old and of course, the kids would fuss because of the water with the sulfur smell. 12:00And there would be times when there would be hurt feelings or disagreements, and sometimes I would try to smooth over those. Lot of times you just had to be diplomatic about getting them to do things like that. So, that's in a nutshell sort of like what it was like. They were required to keep the rooms clean, keep their beds made up and at least for the most part, keep their clothes hung on the....They didn't have a lot of closets. They had racks where they put their clothing. And then there were times when kids had to take stuff to the laundry, if need be, not always. And they would pack up on the weekend, on Friday afternoon as soon as they got home from school, they would rush. And I guess 13:00parents or whatever would be here to meet them and they would rush home for the weekend. So they had from late Friday afternoon until late Sunday afternoon.

C.M.: Did anybody, were there kids that stayed here on the weekends?

PHELPS: There were some that could, especially the kids over around Decoy, that couldn't always get home, because that big, steep hill. When we had mud, it was terrible. And so they would stay here, quite often, especially in the winter time. When they were here, I would have to go with them. Because one, a staff member or an adult would have to be with them when they went to the ball game. And there were ball games quite frequently.

C.M.: Oh really?

PHELPS: Yes, over in the gymnasium.

C.M.: So, somebody from here would go.

PHELPS: Yes, we traded. Another little errand we had to do with them is, once a week they were allowed to go to the Dairy Bar. I would load up the van with them 14:00and we would go up to the Dairy Bar up on one sixty. And they looked forward to that. That was Thursday night that they got to do that. And of course, they got to go home on Friday afternoon. Monday night was an intense study hall, they had the Christian Education program and study hall Sunday night. They had study hall Tuesday night. Wednesday night, Mrs. Earp had a different kind of program for them. Lots of times they would sing. She, of course, played the piano. They had games that they would play. They got in at least three, three or four 15:00nights that they actually had study hall, along with the other activities.

C.M.: Sounds like it was pretty structured.

PHELPS: It was structured. During the day, when they were in school, obviously you didn't have to worry about that. But when they were here, and it was especially difficult to keep structure when we would have work camps to come in, because that disrupted everything. You had that work camp schedule to deal with, extra young folks about the same age around. It was interesting. [Laughter] C.M.: I'd say so.

PHELPS: And we had to monitor the dormitories and so forth, which is usual working with young people. There weren't any major big problems, just the normal thing, the little shenanigans and the tricks that were pulled and so forth.

C.M. : Just, I guess, normal dorm life. [Laughter] PHELPS: Just like dorm life in college really, at the high school level.

C.M.: Let's move down the years that you've been here. I guess, when you came, who was the director?

PHELPS: Lionel Duff..

C.M.: Lionel Duff.

PHELPS: ... was the director. And he actually 16:00signed the six month agreement, along with Vinnie Dyer, who was the chairman of the county extension district board. He signed that, so he was the executive director at that time.

C.M.: Okay, and then McClain came in.

PHELPS: Mr. McClain was here before.

C.M.: He was before Duff. I always get those confused for some reason. Yeah, because that would have been in the seventies. I guess, what was the campus like?

PHELPS: When I arrived here in seventy-three, of course, I stayed in Westover, which is where the Human Services Center and the pool was built. That's where I lived. And then the, up on the hill, which is now the guest house, was actually a shop and the floors were, it was like walking up and down hills. They were just big wavy bumps, especially upstairs. And 17:00Chuck Bentley did a lot of his maintenance work from that building. This building of course, was basically the hub of activities for the campus. And then the so called boys' dormitory was later on, and girls' was up on the hill where that, where we have staff members living now. And then way up on top of the hill, where the Priest Building is now, that building was used for daycare and next to it was a kiln, that had been left by the lady that worked here in a pottery program before. And Michael Ware continued working with that until it burned down one night. Across the way here from the bridge there was the Fireside Industries and that building, that is no longer 18:00here, but the chimney remains. That's where Una Pigman and her crew did all the weaving. And then the Library building, which when I came here, that was not the library. It was home Economics and industrial arts, was [were] in that building. And there was not a lot that was happening C.M.: So, it was pretty much not being used? Okay.

PHELPS: And across the road from it was [the] a house where Chuck Bentley lived. And there was an old storage area behind it. Of course, the building that Mr. Still lived in, in a little apartment was up there. There was nothing down around the ball field, although the ball field was used. I think that pretty much covers 19:00all the, all the buildings on campus that I can remember.

C.M.: Okay.

PHELPS: Some of the ones that have been torn down, were Westover and Fireside Industries. And that was also Fireside Industries' area was used that time, when Mrs. Duff had daycare. She did use that some for daycare.

C.M.: Okay, Becky was telling me about that, the daycare.

PHELPS: But mostly the day care was up where the Priest Building is now.

C.M.: Were there many programs going on at that time?

PHELPS: When I first arrived here, of course the boarding program was the big thing, taking care of all those kids. And then Mr. Duff would have work camps that would come in. And even that first year, I remember three or four and they would bring kids in from, 20:00most of them were from the northeast, from various schools and organizations. They would clean up the campus, they would do painting. They would do some community projects. I remember one in particular. After, I believe it was the seventy-five flood, yes it was nineteen seventy-five. The flood hit on the twenty-third of May. And I remember that summer they brought in a number of people to help with that and they were called work camps. Some other programs that happened always in December, this organization helped with, along with the fire department and the telephone company, to do, like 21:00a Toys for Tots program. We would have occasional visitors here that would come as groups, and I can't remember the names of those groups. But, we would probably have a couple of those each month. In the summertime, there was [were] some festival activities. I dug back through my records. I know there was a music festival that was held here at one time, it was called the Southeast Kentucky Music Festival. And it was a whole variety of Bluegrass Music. I think the Jaycees and maybe () was in charge of that. Some other programs that I can remember would be, I know that there would be projects 22:00that worked directly with the schools. People would go out, would come here and stay and would do a project in the school. I remember one time, there was a group that came here and actually worked with Una Pigman and they helped her with her weaving activities. It was a girls school, and I've long since forgotten the name of that school. That's pretty much what I can remember as far as special programs. There was always programs at Thanksgiving and Christmas, not anything like we do now. Because it wasn't necessarily for the settlement staff as such, but it was for the fire department. They would have their Christmas dinners here, Thanksgiving dinners here. There would be special community programs. 23:00Not long after I got here, actually within just a few months the plans began to be laid for the bicentennial. So there was a lot of activity here, related to the bicentennial.

C.M.: It sounds like there was a lot for the community.

PHELPS: It was a lot of community-type things. And in a lot of cases, the settlement school was like the host, providing the facility and not necessarily a whole lot of staff to run it. here. And an example would have been, when we worked together for the bicentennial project.

C.M. : I guess the next thing that I want to get into, is the later part of the seventies, after my dad came.

PHELPS: Okay.

C.M.: Because it kind of had a new director and there were changes and things. What kind of changes did you see, or there might have even been changes ... I know that your job 24:00has changed over the years, your responsibilities. So, let's talk about that. That is something I know that Jess is really interested in finding out, kind of your role changing over the years along with maybe my dad coming and the campus changing.

PHELPS: One of the first things, of course, that Mike was faced with when he first came here, was that first winter. It was horrendous. It was a constant battle almost daily, from broken water pipes to, over even in the main ball field, to frozen water pipes in the apartments and the dormitories. It was just a big mess. To be honest, things were in a pretty sad state of repairs. And I remember, I guess within a couple of months after Mike got here, he had a meeting with all of us. And he said one of the things he saw as a need 25:00was to start developing some leadership and responsibility for given areas of the campus or whatever with staff members. We evaluated all of the buildings, including the dormitories and he came by and inspected all of them and saw what the needs were. And I'm sure that list must have been a long, long list, because there was just so many needs. Some of the things we began to do, probably some different things that I did in my role here was that there was lots of painting that needed to be done. When it got so bad that virtually everything was shut down, we would paint buildings. We'd start with one order. 26:00And that would be the focus. When it was that bad, the students were home, there was no school. And there was days and days and days of that. And some of the things that changed rather rapidly was that Board meetings were held here on campus, which was a new experience. Because I think before, they must have been held in Lexington or somewhere. Because I didn't, I usually wrote reports for those, but I didn't attend. As far as my role as 4-H agent, by that time, integrated programs in the school were increasing and there were a lot more demands on my time, as far as that was concerned. 27:00And about the time that Mike arrived, the boarding program was beginning to decline dramatically. I can't remember, maybe we might have had a dozen or so students, between twelve and seventeen students at the most, that were here. And that just got fewer and fewer and fewer as the roads got better. Because high school students didn't want to stay here, because that meant they had study hall every night, they had to wash dishes, they had to clean their rooms and all this. And so it wasn't exactly, they had an option. They didn't want to do that. So gradually, the boarding program just phased out itself. Work on the buildings here was, I guess the real big push, to try to make the infrastructure a little bit more sound. And then the beginning 28:00of things like the Folk Week and Writer's Workshops, and in the summer time, the very first beginnings of the summer dyslexic school program, were some of the things that really stick out in my mind. My role as extension agent changed actually as needs of the youth changed. Because when you took the climate for children in the early seventies, it changed dramatically in the eighties. And you don't have a choice, you either have to change or you become ineffective. And I mean, I could talk for ages about changes there. Try to focus basically on changes here is that, 29:00once the students weren't here, that meant some time was freed things that happened was Well, the First Baptist Church burned down in seventy-nine, and we had to start having church services here. The evening services were held here, the morning services at the high school. And that added to my duties of supervision here of using the facilities and seeing that they were clean and set up. And the other thing was just trying to keep watch on the campus with so many people coming and going, coming and going, is that one of my roles, with my position here, was to help keep track of all that.

C.M.: It's kind of always been that way for you, if not officially, you've always been the kind of person, 30:00I know, that anyone could call. Because you know what's going on, and I think that is very important. Because that is not a title that someone gives you. They don't say, this is Jim and he makes sure he know where everybody is. So, I think that is important that we include that in this, that you have always, as long as I've been here for twenty-two years, the person that you could call at any point to check out something. Make sure the water was running. What is that kind of like for you? Is that a burden or?

PHELPS: Not necessarily a burden. I ..definitely could be a frustrating thing at times. I know when we had so much sub-zero weather, that you constantly go from building to building just to see, because we were trying to protect the plumbing. And you'd try to keep the water dripping enough to do that. You weren't always successful. 31:00We had one building, I guess it was the building across the street there. And it probably was the one next to where Chuck lived, that during Christmas break was when all the water lines broke. And it was just like a Christmas wonderland in the building. And I know one year, I was trying to watch my own apartment. I guess that was after Michael had moved out and got married. One morning I was eating breakfast and all of a sudden this stream of water just stopped and it was frozen until Spring. The whole hillside was frozen with ice. I've always felt like .... My family when I was raised on the farm, we always had chores. We always had duties. So, and my mom and dad explained to me, 32:00"well if you live here, then you should be contributing." And so, that's more or less the philosophy that I've maintained here, that when I'm here, I feel that I've got a responsibility to be a part of the team and to help where I can. Well, in essence that's some of the frustrations, well some of the joys would be getting to meet some of the people I've met. In just coordinating buildings and facilities here, I've met some very, very important people that have traveled from, even foreign countries to be here. And with them, some amusing incidents. There was a wedding here once. 33:00And I had been to a meeting in Louisville and got home at like twelve-thirty in the morning. I think I was living in the Stuckey Building at that time. And I brought my bags in and settled down in my apartment. And around, well, it hadn't been ten minutes and there was a little peck on the door [Laughter -Mullins] and there was a lady outside. And I thought, well, she was in the shower and had locked herself out. Well, she had been, but she locked herself out of her room and she had been locked out of her room. She was here all by herself And she had been locked out all evening long.

END OF TAPE 20 A 53 , JAMES PHELPS, SIDE A C.M.: Oh gosh.

PHELPS: And I never will forget her first words, because she spoke with a very distinct British accent, saying she 34:00had locked herself out of her room. And she .... and there is no phone, no way to call in.

C.M.: No, oh it's terrible.

PHELPS: And I think it was for Diane Cornett's wedding, to the best of my knowledge, when she was here. And she was probably a relative of Diane's husband.

C.M.: So you've had to deal with a little bit of everything, I'm sure, in your time here.

PHELPS: Yeah, we've had to deal with sickness. We've had kids that have gotten very, very sick here. And one time when about two thirds of them got down with the flu. And they were all in their beds. They couldn't even get them home.

C.M.: So, you all just took care of them.

PHELPS: We just about had to take care of them, which was sort of a carry over from an earlier time, when the Stuckey Building was used as a hospital. But 35:00I'm sure that there are hundreds of other instances, but I can't think of them right now. To say the least, it's not been boring and that different challenges have happened along the way to make it interesting. We've had, relating back to that flood in May twenty-third, May twenty-third, seventy-five. I was stranded at Emmolina. I was down there doing camp promotion. And finally got back home early that evening. And when I got up to the apartments, it was like it was raining on the inside of the apartments, they were leaking so bad. And Michael was running around putting out Styrofoam cups trying to collect water. And we were mopping and they had, all the throw rugs about an hour and it was just a mess. 36:00C.M.: I'd say so.

PHELPS: And cleaning up, cleaning up Mrs. Earp's house after flooding was interesting. We went through that a few times.

C.M.: Oh I know. PHELPS: And helping to move her things. Of course she was a delight to work with, not only from the standpoint of being a Christian mentor, but her ability to work with people, is really, really an amazing thing.

C.M.: I guess the other main thing that I want to talk to you about, probably the last thing we will get to today. I guess just tell us a little bit now, what you do with your job now, what some of your duties are.

PHELPS: How it's changed?

C.M.: Yeah, because we're moving into the next century. Because I know, 37:00as you said, there are no more students here on the campus, and so you work as a 4-H Extension Officer. So what are some of the things that you do on a day to day basis?

PHELPS: Now?

C.M.: Yeah.

PHELPS: Okay the big change that happened, and this happened shortly after Mike came, was that computers came into my life. And that meant a whole new ball game at the office. And because of working with computers, my way of work has changed a lot. Here at the settlement school, some of the changes that have happened working toward the new century, of before, now it's major. Now there is one on my desk that I work with almost every day in preparing reports. Now, used to we had to get publications from the university 38:00and brought them in. Now, we virtually do everything in the office. So, I've had to learn all those computer skills. And as programming increased here on the settlement school campus, some of my things that relate back to youth developed with Dr. Shink coming here and seeing the need for environmental education. And we started right after Mike came, to develop the Nature Trail. And that's been a long journey with some stuff still we're working on constantly as providing an educational resource for people, from church groups, girl scout groups, environmental emphasis groups with 4-H from schools. And then also working with just tourists of the campus, dealing with campus history, preparing for the Knott County history book that we developed. 39:00And then most recently working with community development initiatives. Some of the things that happened with this, with the newer time, was record Board meetings. Michael did it before. And then I sort of inherited that. And then even recording just recently the CDI meetings, the public meetings. So I've acted as, using my technical skills with electronics and recording meetings, whether it be by audio or even video. I know we've got some videos here, that I've done of Christmas programs and other special activities. I know there's recordings that I'm sure that are on file somewhere of the early Folk Weeks, audio recordings 40:00that were done of the concerts and activities. I've also served in the role of meeting and greeting people from DAR [Daughters of the American Revolution] school tours, bus tours, University of Kentucky tours, Eastern Kentucky University tours. We've had people come over from Alice Lloyd College. I can't even begin to mention the groups of people on campus.

C.M.: Yeah, there's been a lot.

PHELPS: But in the later years, say in the last ten years, that kind of thing has gotten a lot larger than in the past, because as needs developed. So my role has changed from being, I guess a dormitory father figure to a little bit more technical, where that I was assisting with 41:00making recordings of historically important meetings, to dealing with people as their host and answering their questions. And even on weekends, I might be going to the post office or to my office and there'd be a, up comes a car. And then all of sudden your schedule changes and you've got people here that they are traveling through from all across the country and they start asking questions and they want a little mini tour. And so, over the years, I develop a routine more or less of what that would be like, and telling what the early years were like, the changes and then what it is like now. So, I've met some really interesting people.

C.M.: Oh, I'd say so. 42:00PHELPS: Even once, I met recently, within a couple of years. I met a buddy of Mr. Still that was in the war with him. One Sunday afternoon I was going to check out Mrs. Earp's house to see if everything was okay, and they had dropped by, just to see the campus. And I got to meet with him.

C.M.: That's always neat to meet new people, I think.

PHELPS: Right. And what I see probably, right now as far as my association with here, I'm continuing to work on the campus and I live here. As far as youth work changing, we're now where the demand is so big that we've have hired a program assistant to help with programming that relates back to the schools. Our para-professions that work with nutrition education, 43:00they do programming that we didn't do before. We're now working with Kindergarten and fourth grade, catching the very youngest and then the fourth graders. And that's actually a part of the 4-H programming. And then just the demand of trying to provide for needs of youth in the late nineties. I can't even conceive, or I couldn't conceive when I came here what I'd be doing now, or what I'd have to deal with on a daily basis. And the technology I have to know working with electronic stuff, computers. What used to be done at the University of Kentucky, as far as designing a publication. I can sit down within an hour 44:00in my computer and turn it out and print it and duplicate it. So, that is the scope of the change from seventy-three to ninety-nine.

C.M.: It's definitely a big one.

PHELPS: Yes. And also too, that also throws more responsibility on our shoulders for doing it. On the other hand, it means that when a need comes up in a community that may be totally unique, that we can meet that need. And we can meet it a lot quicker than if we have someone somewhere else to do it for us. I cherish my association here over these years, because people I've met have enriched my life beyond anything that I could think of in any other situation. I can't 45:00think of another place I could have been where I would have met people that are actually really big in the music industry, in the folk history and tales. I don't know of another place in this world that I could have met people of that caliber. And that being aside from work, but actually in a sense it does effect work, because when you are enriched by an experience, it automatically becomes a part of what you do in your daily work. So, I think that's pretty much what I can think of, 46:00I know we're facing now, dealing with instead of going from the spirit duplicator to the computer. And then now, starting this month, all my reporting is going to be on the Web, the World Wide Web.