Oral History Interview with Vivian Watts

CASSIE MULLINS: All right, I'll just go ahead and turn it on, make sure everything is working here. Okay, today's date is July the twenty-ninth, nineteen ninety-eight, and we are in Hindman. Just go ahead and state your name.

VIVIAN COMBS WATTS: My name is Vivian Combs Watts.

C.M.: And Vivian, let's just start out talking about where you grew up, a little bit about your family.

WATTS: I grew up on Quicksand Creek, here in Knott County. The daughter of a construction worker and a teacher. My mother taught in one-room schools, Upper Quicksand Elementary and Baker School and later on, Decoy School.

C.M.: Wow WATTS: I have one brother, Jerry Combs, who stayed here at the settlement before me. We grew up, 1:00just sort of like wild children. [Laughing] We didn't have a lot of supervision. We didn't have as many chores as many of the other children in the neighborhood did, so we roamed the hills.

C.M.: What was that like? Seems people don't do that as much, now.

WATTS: My dad was an avid hunter and fisherman, so he kept all this camping equipment, all the skillets and things. And we would raid his camping equipment and the smokehouse. We would cut big slabs of bacon and get potatoes and his old camp skillet, and stuff And we would take it out in the hills, and just slice the bacon up in big, thick pieces and fry it and then fry our potatoes in the grease.

C.M.: That's pretty good.

WATTS: We'd just eat al fresco out under the trees. We just had lots of fun, doing things like that.

C.M.: Well, that's neat. So, let's see, you went to Hindman of course, to school. Now what year did you graduate?

WATTS: I graduated in nineteen seventy-four, the last 2:00class from the old Hindman High School.

C.M.: Did you go to school all the time, in Hindman?

WATTS: Elementary school, I went to a one-room school, Joshua School. I think that, that was, besides the settlement, that was one of the best experiences in my life. And I still maintain that, that atmosphere is more conducive to learning than the segregated grades. Like, when I was in third grade, I already knew what was in fourth grade, because I heard the teacher teaching those classes. By the time I was in the seventh grade, I passed the test to go on to high school. I wasn't old enough and the teacher decided not to let me go. But I already knew everything in the grade above me.

C.M.: I just 3:00think that's amazing, because people wouldn't think that there was still that option of kids going to a class like that, at that time. Because that would have been what, in the sixties?

WATTS: Yeah.

C.M.: That was at Quicksand, right, over there? I think that is pretty interesting. Because I never knew that there was still, like an educational opportunity like that for kids.

WATTS: Right. Some people, I think a lot of people think that it would just create pandemonium, that kind of atmosphere in the classroom. But it really doesn't. I think it is very helpful to hear what is being taught in the other classes, the other grades.

C.M.: Now, before we get into talking about your time at the settlement school. I think it would be interesting, I guess, what was Hindman like at that time? We're trying to get an idea, you know, of the changes over the years, and I've managed to talk to a few people that told me what town was like, or the things they did for entertainment. So when you were in high school or growing up in Knott County, what did you do for fun? I mean, besides going out with your brother 4:00and things.

WATTS: Really, in Quicksand, we didn't do a lot. And in summertime, we went swimming, or the girls in the neighborhood, it was quite a spread out neighborhood. My best friends, I would have to walk two miles to their house. But that wasn't a big deal then, because we walked almost everywhere. The roads were so bad in that area. So, we would just go, alternate spend nights with each other, just do old time things, like make candy, sit up by the fire and talk. Or summertime, go to the swimming hole and go swimming. Even just a congregation of girls, we'd all get out and take our razors and go to the swimming hole and shave our legs, just to be doing something different. Just a place to get away from the adults and just talk, say what we wanted to say.

C.M.: I just think that is so neat, that you are talking about that, because, 5:00I guess, like people think of the changes and things. I think it is neat that you all still had that kind of closeness and the things that you did together. Because that's what people, you know, in the thirties and forties, that was still the same kind of things, of course, it wasn't the thirties and forties anymore. But I just think that was neat, that you all still spent so much time together to entertain yourselves.

WATTS: We were a very isolated community. We did have record players. We would play the top forty hits, you know. We would buy records, the ones of us that could afford it. And a teacher's salary at that time, wasn't a lot, but I was probably considered much more privileged than most of the children in that neighborhood. I did have an allowance and money to buy a few things like that. We played the record player, we danced. We had a T.V., 6:00but there were just so many things we'd really rather do.

C.M. : So, did you all come to town much?

WATTS: No, that's something that we didn't get to do very often, because a trip to town was a big undertaking in a four wheel drive most of the time. If you got out in a two-wheel drive and got to town and it rained, you might not get back.

C.M.: Yeah, I guess so. How long would it take you to get from Quicksand to Hindman, driving a four wheel drive?

WATTS: It was like an hour and a half. I can remember a time, that it was probably like an hour and a half drive the roads were just so narrow, winding and rutted out, especially in the winter, it just took a long time.

C.M.: So, how long do you think it would take now from here?

WATTS: It takes me, the way I drive, from fifteen to seventeen minutes to get from my house to Hindman, now. Maybe the way someone else drives, maybe it's twenty-five.

C.M.: So, you still live over on Quicksand. 7:00WATTS: Yes, I live across the creek from my homeplace, from where I was raised.

C.M.: That's neat. Well, I guess let's talk a little bit about going to school. Did you just go to high school at Hindman, when you started high school?

WATTS: Yes. I came here at the settlement in my freshman year, fourteen years old, moved away from home.

C.M.: I guess let's talk about that a little bit. I think that is really amazing, to at fourteen, to leave your mom and dad, even though you're in the same county. But like you said, that's a trip. They weren't just going to come over and visit every evening. And you couldn't go back and forth.

WATTS: Right.

C.M.: So, let's talk a little bit about that, about moving here.

WATTS: Sunday evenings I already knew what to expect, because all of my cousins, my brother had already done this before me. And I was even privileged enough to get to come and spend the night with some of my cousins in the dormitory. So, I knew pretty much what to expect, but fourteen years old, and daddy's little, spoiled, baby daughter moving out, 8:00packing her suitcase to leave home for the first time, it was heart-breaking. And to spend whole weeks at a time and only get to see my parents on the weekend. I cried for a week or two, cried myself to sleep a few nights. But it was just, there was such a family atmosphere, it didn't take long to bond with the other students. And some of the staff members were just so warm and friendly that it helped a lot. And we made friendships just to last a lifetime. The cooks, there was Alfie Conley and Eltra Roberts. And Eltra is still alive ...

C.M.: Oh, she's my granny, she's my granny. [Laughing] WATTS: And I still see her. I still go to church with her. And I just love her dearly.

C.M.: Well, I guess, let's talk about people. That's one thing that's been hard to find out about, is .... I've been able to find out a lot about teachers 9:00and things. But people often forget about the other people that work, like the cooks and things. What are some of your special memories about Eltra, or the other lady that you mentioned, that worked in the kitchen?

WATTS: I think probably their sense of humor. Alfie's sense of humor was often a little bit on the bawdy side. But Eltra's sense of humor, was more of a sharper sense of humor. Maybe she would reprimand you about something that you were doing wrong, or you neglected to do in your chores, your daily chores. But she would do it in a kind of a humorous way, so you didn't go away feeling bad about her.

C.M.: That's neat. So, when you moved here, what building did you live in at first? Or did you live ... .l don't know if you lived in different ones.

WATTS: The 10:00first year, the freshman year, I cannot remember the name of the building. I thought about it so much. It was the one out towards where Human Services Center is now. I don't know if it was Eastover, maybe that was the name of it.

C.M.: I think that would probably be right.

WATTS: But Mrs. Stahl was the house mother. A lady that could not see well at all, but she was noted for her sharp hearing.

C.M.: Oh, really. What was she like?

WATTS: And her sense of smell, when we tried to sneak a cigarette and blow the smoke out the bathroom window.

C.M.: Oh, that didn't work very well, did it? [Laughter] WATTS: No.

C.M.: So, what was Mrs. Stahl like as a housemother?

WATTS: She was very strict, but she had the soft side, too. If you had a problem, she was always there and you knew that you could go talk to her about it. And you always left feeling better.

C.M.: What was the set up like in that dorm, as far as how many girls were to a room and things? 11:00WATTS: We had bunk beds and I think some rooms had three sets of bunk beds in it. So, there were quite a few in a room. I guess I don't remember that dorm as well as I do the one downstairs in the May Stone Building, which is my favorite. The little cubicles with the little wooden-.

C.M.: Oh, did you get to live in there?

WATTS: Yes, I lived there, after my freshman year.

C.M.: And did you have a different housemother?

WATTS: Emorette Wiley. And I've been trying to contact her. I loved her so much. I took her home with me on weekends.

C.M.: Really?

WATTS: Yeah. Of course, she was connected in some way with Naomi Powell and the Quicksand Craft Center, which was, at the time, was established just around the curve from my house. So, she spent a lot of time with Naomi, too, 12:00at the Craft Center. She spent a lot of time at our house.

C.M.: Now, what kinds of chores did you have to do while you were here? I guess you still had to work, didn't you? And do things.

WATTS: Yeah, I had to help with dishes, had to help set up breakfast at certain times. We just had a schedule, sort of rotating. And in I think, my sophomore and junior years, I was working with a day care center that was on campus at that time. A friend of mine, a girl from Quicksand, Gertrude Henshoe and another one from close in our area, Betty Bollen, the three of us worked with the toddlers at the day care center.

C.M.: Was it still kind of like a work-study situation to live on campus? Did you have to pay to live on campus? 13:00WATTS: I think if I remember correctly, my parents had to pay ten dollars a semester or ten dollars a year, one or the other. I know it involved ten dollars, that was just such a nominal fee.

C.M.: Right.

WATTS: But the working, there was nothing strenuous. There was nothing that we could call burdening. The work was nothing to amount to anything.

C.M.: Okay, well, what were some rules that you had to follow when you were on campus, as far as your expected behavior? I'm sure there were rules, because they were in charge of a bunch of high school kids.

WATTS: There were rules that really we found quite chafing at times.

C.M.: Oh yeah? I'd say so.

WATTS: There were times that a girl and a boy could get by with holding hands, 14:00but by no means, should you be caught kissing. [Laughing] C.M.: What happened if you were? [Laughing] WATTS: You would be sent to the director for just a very straight talk.

C.M.: So, I guess they didn't tolerate much like that?

WATTS: No, no, no. It was very strict. But there was an air of, I don't know, it was just a happy place, very good memories. And keeping your room clean, the beds, you had to be up at a certain time, you had to be showered and up to breakfast by a certain time. You had time then to go back down and clean your little space up and have your bed made. And it had to be made just right, and have everything put away in time to get your books and go on to class.

C.M.: I think 15:00it is so neat, the fact that people were still staying here at that time. Do you have any idea of maybe an approximate number of people that were on campus when you were, during high school?

WATTS: Oh, probably thirty-some, forty-some at a time.

C.M.: Okay, because I knew the numbers weren't as high as the earlier years. Somebody told me they thought it was thirty to forty, but I was wondering.

WATTS: Yeah, there were quite a few. And some quite mischievous ones at given times. Boys had to have, it was sort of a custom to raid the kitchen at night and get an ice cream and take it up to their dorm and try to eat it all, before it melted. [Laughing] C.M.: Were there any more serious things that happened, or was it a pretty much a safe place?

WATTS: It was a safe place, but there were things like, maybe the girls tying all the sheets in knots 16:00and lowering them down, for the boys to climb up to the window and talk to them. [Laughing] But I have no recollection of any of them actually making it inside the door. I don't think they ever got in. But just little mischievous things, maybe running someone's underwear up the flag pole. [Laughing] That was done at one time. A very large pair of underwear.

C.M.: Oh yeah, if they are going to pick somebody. Who was the director while you were here?

WATTS: When I first came here, it was Raymond McClain. He was dearly loved by everyone.

C.M.: Was he?

WATTS: Yes.

C.M.: What was he, I mean what do you remember about him?

WATTS: His smile, his smile, his laugh.

C.M.: Uhh-mm.

WATTS: The music they made with their McClain Family Band. 17:00We had live music for our folk dancing practice. And folk dancing was a big part of the settlement school at that time. We put on shows, one I remember quite well, because I embarrassed myself, was Jenny Wiley Theater.

C.M.: Oh, you performed there.

WATTS: We did a folk dance there.

C.M.: Was this like a club? Did everybody do it? Or was it, how ...?

WATTS: It was not strictly required, but it was strongly, strongly encouraged that everybody did it. And that was a part of our week, at least once a week and I think maybe twice, we had folk dance practice.

C.M.: Where did you all do that?

WATTS: In the Great Hall. And the McClain's live music really made it more fun. There 18:00were many nights in warm weather that it got very hot in there, so it wouldn't take long to get dripping with sweat. So we would get breaks and go outside. And being outside, out away from the lights, was kind of conducive to a little bit of light courting.

C.M.: Oh, I'd say so. [Laughter] WATTS: So, many girls got their first kiss out by the wall in front of the Great Hall.

C.M.: Yeah, I'd say that was probably the best opportunity. [Laughing] WATTS: Practically the only one. The boys were allowed to walk us to our dorm, but they were monitored very closely. So, you either had to get, there were some vines out by May Stone downstairs dormitory, so that kind of screened you from the house mother's eyes a little bit. [Laughing] 19:00C.M.: I guess thinking back on it now, about the folk dancing you were talking about just a few seconds ago. That's something that isn't done anymore, and it sounds like it was just part of your all's being here, like it was kind of a routine thing. I guess that's such a part of the heritage of Eastern Kentucky. Thinking back on that now, I guess how do you feel about that, of having that opportunity and the fact that it's not here anymore?

WATTS: I feel like the settlement school has really done a tremendous job, at encouraging people to know their cultural heritage and to try to keep it from dying out. And in spite of the efforts, it is gradually more and more becoming a thing of the past. But I think that the settlement school has just, I have to applaud them 20:00for their efforts in that area, the weaving and the folk dancing and so many other areas, the folk songs and the mountain art forms. The settlement has really done a lot to keep those things alive.

C.M.: Yeah, I think so, too. Of course, I'm biased, so I guess I'm allowed to say that. [Laughing] Well let's talk a little bit more about, I guess the school aspect of being here. Because I know that at that time, Hindman was a public school, of course, the high school was public, but the students were allowed to live here. Who were some of your teachers, maybe, that stand out in your mind? Maybe like a favorite teacher or two, that when you think about your years at Hindman High School, pop into your mind?

WATTS: Well, it would have to be my English teachers. 21:00They had, especially I think Mary Stewart, fostered my interest in writing. I had always been the type of child, from the time I was a little thing, that if nothing else was available, I would read dictionaries, and would read encyclopedias for fun. But she fostered my interest in writing, and that's been something that has continued with me over the years. But Bevie Pratt, Betty Combs, they were all teachers that really made a big impression on me.

C.M.: And this is kind of a hard question to answer, could be just the way I'm asking it. I've been trying to get really vivid memories that people have of their school time, of being here. I know like when I think of things, when I was in high school, there's like certain things that happened, even if they are silly things, that stand out in my mind. Are there any, 22:00like moments in high school, that stand out in your mind? Things that happened in class? Or maybe over here at the settlement school even?

WATTS: Yeah, a very silly thing, at the dormitory in my Freshman year. One of the girls in the dorm decided she wanted her hair colored. Her hair was, I guess almost a reddish brown, her natural color. And she decided that she wanted her hair black. And so she bought the hair color and we endeavored to color her hair. After the mixture was applied to her hair, it started turning purple.

C.M.: Oh, no.

WATTS: Not knowing that we needed to leave it on long enough for the color to develop, that the purple was not going to be the color it was going to stay, we immediately got scared and rinsed it off. And she had to go the school with purple hair. [Laughing] C.M.: What did she think of that? I guess that was pretty funny.

WATTS: She freaked, but she always had such a sense 23:00of humor and she just made a great joke of it.

C.M.: That sounds like something I would end up doing, if I tried to color mine. That is funny. Were there any other things? I'll admit, I'm kind of digging for things, about being here on campus at that time. I don't know, like you were talking about some of the pranks the boys played and throwing sheets out the windows and things. I guess, what did you all do together on campus? I know you had the folk dancing and you had your chores, but are there other things that you all did, when you had free time together?

WATTS: We would get to go downtown, certain days of the week. We had a certain time, that was allotted to us to go downtown. So, we would get to spend like an hour, an hour and a half, two hours, something 24:00in that line, downtown, maybe one evening a week. The girls could go one day and the boys would have to go a different day. We couldn't go together. We more or less window shopped or went in the stores shopping. There was one favorite storekeeper, Mike Slone. We all just really loved to go in there and pick on him, kind of, harass him a little bit. He was good natured, he took it quite well.

C.M.: What kind of stores were downtown at that time? I'm sure it was a lot different than it is now.

WATTS: Just the clothing stores, there was the Village House, was sort of a boutique, all women's clothing, and shoes and purses, 25:00expensive, the Aigner brand, and so on and Bass. There was the Colley and Slone's, there was Young's Department Store, and there was Magurd's Clothing Store. There was Joe's Restaurant, where the Mighty Mart is right now, there was Mertie Watts had a filling station there, service station. And then down below that was Joe's Restaurant, sometimes called the Hole-In-The-Wall, and a poolroom there. It was a place that we were absolutely never to be caught in.

C.M.: Why was that?

WATTS: And when we walked down there, we had to walk straight on by. It was not considered proper for a young lady to stop and talk to anybody that hollered at her from Joe's Poolroom. [Laughing] C.M.: And I bet that made you want to go in there even more.

WATTS: And we just really wanted to know what that place was like.

C.M.: I'd 26:00say so. I know I would have. [Laughter] WATTS: Sometime later my brother took me in and I thought, no big deal, it was just little booths with menus and a jukebox, just no big deal. I could see nothing wrong with it, when I went with my brother.

C.M.: So, was there any difference, I guess, did you ever feel any different, when you were in school, that you didn't ride the bus to school or that you didn't walk to school, you lived over here? Was there ...?

WATTS: Yeah, I think people kind of considered us as strange, unusual, different. To some degree a lot of the town kids, it was kind of perceived as the town kids were maybe better than the settlement kids. It was a perception 27:00around school.

C.M.: Why do you think that was?

WATTS: Probably because so many of us were, I guess, underprivileged. We were from out in the mountains, way out in the hills, you know, where nobody wants to go. That's where we were from. I guess we were just very different in that way.

C.M.: Isn't that strange too, because you all lived in the same county.

WATTS: We all lived in the same county. Our life experiences, I guess, were quite different though.

C.M.: Yeah, I guess that's true.

WATTS: Because our communities were so isolated.

C.M.: So, now when you got finished with your high school and graduated, what did you do after 28:00 that?

WATTS: The summer after I graduated I had already applied to Alice Lloyd College and was accepted. So, the summer after I graduated, I worked with Mike Mullins on the Appalachian Oral History Project that summer, and started classes at Alice Lloyd the following Fall.

C.M.: So once you got to college, how did you feel about the quality of education that you'd received while you were at Hindman?

WATTS: The quality of education I received at Hindman, I have to consider excellent, really. My college experience really had very little to do with my background, because at 29:00Alice Lloyd College, I think one the first things I did, was immediately become involved with the wrong crowd. [Laughing] But while I was in high school, I was a member of the National Honor Society, everything just kind of came easy to me. All of the classes, everything, I had no problems with any of my classes, yeah with math, that was always a problem. [Laughter] Other than that everything always just came very easy to me. Once I got in college, I started asserting my independence. I was eighteen years old, and I thought it was time to find out what the world was all about. And instead of finding out about the things that I should be studying, I was finding about other things. [Laughter] C.M.: Yeah, I think that happens to a lot of people when they go. 30:00WATIS: Instead of living a little, I lived a lot.

END OF INTERVIEW