Oral History Interview with Loyal Jones

CASSIE MULLINS: I get it going, okay. Now today is July the twenty-fourth, nineteen ninety-eight, just go ahead and state your name and where we are today.

LOYAL JONES: I'm Loyal Jones and we're in Berea, Kentucky on, this is July the twenty fourth, nineteen ninety-eight.

C.M.: Loyal let's just get started. I know that you are on the Board of Directors for Hindman Settlement School and you are the Chairman.

JONES: Chairman currently, yeah.

C.M.: And let's talk a little bit about how you found out about the settlement school and your association with them.

JONES: Well of course, I grew up at Brasstown, which is next to the John C. Campbell Folk School. It is not that I heard about them in those days, but I got acquainted 1:00with that kind of organization pretty early in life. And then when I came to Berea, I think I started hearing about Hindman. And Raymond McClain, who was the Director there, was a friend of mine. I had known him and his family and sister and so forth for a good many years. And after I graduated from Berea, I was back here working with the Council of Southern Mountains. We started, quite often we would hold meetings at Hindman Settlement School of the East Kentucky group of the Council. We had an Eastern Kentucky group. For a time we bad a Virginia and a West Virginia group. But the Kentucky one was the strongest. So we would hold meetings at Pine Mountain, at Hindman, at Quicksand, Pikeville College, and various places. So, I began to, you know, visit Hindman 2:00in those early days. And to see people from Hindman, who would be at the various meetings, Dick Ramsey, who taught weaving there. Of course, I knew James Still for a good while, earlier. Read him in college. I guess Raymond McClain, mainly. So that was my early interest in the council, sort of a place to meet. I mean in Hindman.

C.M.: In Hindman. Okay, so when did you become a Board member, or how did that come about?

JONES: Let's see, I think I was asked to be a Board member back when Lionel Duff was there. And just assumed at that time there wasn't a whole lot going on, and so I declined it. But then when your father was asked to be the director, 3:00I was asked again, and I said, yes I would be glad to serve at that time. So, I came on just as your father became executive director.

C.M. : But you had this association for years and known about it.

JONES: And knew about it and had been there many times.

C.M.: I guess one thing I am interested in terms of talking to Board members. I've gotten to talk to a couple. I've talked to Wibbie Pratt and to Jean Ritchie. I've talked to her also.

JONES: Let me back up.

C.M. : Okay.

JONES: There was one thing I forgot to tell. When I came to Berea, to Berea College to start the Appalachian center and so forth, there was already a faculty tour that Jim Bobbit had started earlier. He went to Holyoke. And so I took that over and one of the things I did was to change its focus, somewhat. I was more interested 4:00in visiting people's groups. Whereas before it mainly visited like Hindman and Pine Mountain and sort of missionary schools. I began at that time to use Pine Mountain as a place to stay and to learn about Pine Mountain and to use Hindman as a place to stay and also to learn about their programs and what they were doing. But then to go out and visit strip mines and go to local churches and that sort of thing. So for about twenty some years, we visited Hindman on a regular basis, taking the new Berea faculty and having people, whoever was running the school, explain it. And of course, the last what, dozen years or so, your father was there and I was on the Board, so that was a little different relationship than in the beginning when it was mostly a place to stay.

C.M. : Let's talk a little bit about 5:00just being around the settlement, because you have been a part of it for so many years. What has been the most important part for you, being part of the board and being there? You helped develop programs. Like what is so important to you, personally?

JONES: Well, the important things about Hindman it seems to me, that mainly because of your father's energy and imagination, Hindman found ways to serve beyond that mission era of boarding school and whatnot. Once the boarding schools stopped at Pine Mountain and Hazel Green and Annville and many of those other schools, there seemed to be less and less for them to do. In other words, the public schools took over their function and they were left. And it seemed to me, partly because there were nice buildings there and it was a nice place to meet, lots of other groups started asking to meet there. The East Kentucky 6:00Teacher's Network and so forth. So first of all, I was impressed that your father had imagination to encourage other things to get started. And of course, we were doing the art and music teachers in the schools.

C.M.: Yeah, in the public schools.

JONES: Which seemed very important, it became less important as the counties I guess failed to pick up at least some part of that. And we had the Montessori school and the adult education and so forth, that I thought were worth doing. But then the dyslexia program with Lois and others that started gaining in importance, and it seemed clear that this was something that was needed in eastern Kentucky. Nobody else was doing it. And so I think the board, most everybody on the board thought that sure, this is a good thing to do.

C.M.: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about that, about the dyslexic school. Because it is, I think it is interesting, 7:00because I've talked to all these past graduates and people that were there when the settlement school was a boarding place, was a place for them to live and to work and to go to school. And it's like it has kind of evolved back into a place for students, not in the same kind of sense, but for students who have a special need. And as far as being on the board, what did you think about that? You said that you think that is important. I guess, maybe what are some of your thoughts on the development of the dyslexic Program, being like it's a main focus, not the main focus of the settlement school now, but it's a big part of it.

JONES: Well, I think it is logical and important. It's always been a problem to finance it, you know, we'd hoped that counties would chip in and everything, and they've been very reluctant to do that, because they don't want to lose any money. And they pretended that they have special education programs that take care of it. 8:00And we all know that these students with dyslexic characteristics are in an entirely different category I think, than a lot of learning disabled students, who maybe just are incapable of learning, because of various learning disabilities. The dyslexic students of course have learning disabilities too, but in general most of them are normal or above in their intelligence. And we know with the right kind of work and it happens to be a very specialized work, they can achieve again. And this seems like a, I think, a very good thing to put our energies into at this point. Although you know, the adult education program, it seems to me is awfully good too, thanks to the volunteers from the Mennonite service corps, which I admire very much. I think they are the best I've every seen, the best trained, or chosen 9:00and trained and so forth. But I think the dyslexic school and your father's ability to, mainly he's done it and Lois, to raise money to renovate that James Still Center and add onto it and to make such a nice place of it. And as I guess in talking with Lois, these new computer programs, even though they're ghastly expensive and I hate to see people, seemingly making money off of, making so much money. I don't mind them making money, but it seems to be pretty expensive, because you have to buy it for each student. You can't then use it on another student. But it seems to me that this may be a whole breakthrough. I don't know then, how to teach these students.

C.M.: Right, I haven't been around it that much, but it seems like this summer, there has been amazing gains, from what I've heard. Okay, another thing I was interested in asking you about of course, is 10:00the emphasis that the settlement has place over the years on the heritage of eastern Kentucky, in terms of the Folk Week and the Writer's Workshop and things like that. What are some of your opinions on that, the things that have been developed?

JONE'S: I think this is very important. It just seems to me that there are so many people out of eastern Kentucky who have this yearning to come back and sort of view it in a different context, in a more intellectual context. So the Folk Week is a chance for them, or for people to come and learn about the region. It seems to be important. It historically has been a part of it. I know that the early ladies who first observed the ballads and the baskets and all these, had mixed feelings about the people, almost feeling that it is an incongruity that these people, who they described as living in filth and poverty, possessed these priceless ballads from 11:00a higher culture as it were. [Laughing] But it seems to me that they did truly, the people at Hindman, I think if you compared it to some of the other schools, did truly appreciate a lot of the things in the culture and tried to encourage people to study it. So I think we ought to continue doing that, as long as people want to do it. I think you have to be careful always that these people are not just voyeurs, you know, just wanting a little experience back in the mountains, and will do nothing further with it. But on the other hand, I think there are always people who will speak well of the mountains and mountain people, after they've become acquainted with Carrie Norris and Lee Sexton and people like that, who are truly gifted, you know.

C.M.: I know that you've published some books and have been involved in that aspect of it, in terms of the Writer's 12:00Workshop and things that go on there, what are your feelings on that? The importance of that?

JONES: I think it is great. And I think that it is great that the workshop has encouraged these people to share with others, probably the best example of this is Lee Smith. I don't think we had to encourage her or teach her to do that, she's just that kind of person that would always be available for workshops and for helping younger writers. Ann Gerney has always been helpful and so forth. But I think a lot of these writers probably wouldn't have done much, if they hadn't been invited to be in this setting. And I think some of these people who have been involved, several of these people who have been involved will write important things. I suppose that most of them are hopeful writers and probably will never 13:00do it, particularly fiction. I think it takes a special person with a creative mind, you know.

C.M.: I do too.

JONES: I was just reading Sharon McCrumb's latest, you know, and sort of admiring the way she pulls these ancient stories, she likes to fool with in her stories, that takes a lot of brain power, a real high IQ, I think.

C.M.: Oh, I think it does too. [Laughter] JONES: And not everybody can do that. A lot of people with high IQs don't have that creative spark and everything. No, I think we ought to do these things, as long as they don't become so burdensome, like get your father overworked. But I think he would probably do it. If he didn't have these things, he'd think of something else to be doing. He's just that kind of person.

C.M.: You're probably right.

JONES: And I think he thrives on it in many ways.

C.M.: What are some of your hopes for the future 14:00of this school in the coming years.

JONES: That's a good question.

C.M.: You know, it will be the hundredth anniversary in two thousand two and that's quite a landmark for a place like that.

JONES: Well I would hope that this whole economic initiative over there for Hindman and Hindman Settlement School, and these new things would work together to create more of a campus and a consortium of things going on there, that would be pro-mountain, pro-culture, pro everything, but also with some kind of economic possibilities so that people can do better. You know the craft thing may not work, through the art, or it may be .... Well, I think if you look historically, and I've been involved in these things too. We started a toy factory in Barbourville, and as long as we paid somebody to do it, it flourished. The minute he was gone, the thing collapsed. And we had tried 15:00low cost housing and all sorts of things, and in general, people want an eight to five job. They don't want ownership, they don't want to take responsibility for keeping it going and everything. But your father makes the point, in training these local craftsmen, it is local craftspeople and they will be learning, if that's what they want to do, how to manage and things about design and finance and all of that, that I think they need to know. You have to be a good business person, I think to be a craftsman. Homer Ledford is a lifelong friend of mine. I know how hard .... He even left Berea and went to Eastern to get a degree in business, because he perceived that that's, he had a lot of gifts. Of course, he learned a lot over there too, about how to do wood in a better fashion. But I think anything that can be done along those lines, and certainly that Haywood Tech, 16:00I've been there. And I think it is one of the best in the country. Now what you may end up having is people from all over trying to get in to do it. Quite often the craftsmen in Appalachia in the Highland Institute, I mean the Southern Ireland Handicapped Guild are people who came here and established an Appalachian identity and happened to have a gift for something or other. And a lot of those craftsmen aren't Appalachian. But I think you can't be too puristic [purist] about that, if somebody is a glass blower or jewelry maker or something, whether or not it's ever been done in Knott county. If somebody wants to do that, can make a living out of it, and can create a kind of arts place there. So, I would hope that there will be other opportunities. It may be that the East Kentucky Tutorial Program will be the main emphasis for many years to come. And 17:00of course, something could happen to that, depending on what the state does with its educational program. It may go into a new level one of these days, and do a much better job with disabled, learning disabled kids. And there might not be a place for us to do that anymore, just like there wasn't a place for the boarding school anymore, after a while. Although I always, I bemoan the fact, that I think at Hindman and Pine Mountain, you had the most creative and progressive educational programs in the mountains, but nevertheless they were sort of overwhelmed by a very mediocre county system that was all caught up in politics, and all kinds of problems there. And 18:00instead of using something like Hindman as an example of how education might be done, they just sort of overwhelmed it and took over and did probably, a more inadequate job than Hindman was doing.

C.M.: One thing I wanted to ask you about is, you had the opportunity to serve on the board with Miss Watts and to know her. And I've gotten a lot of memories from past students, you know, having her as a teacher, as their principal. I wanted to get things that you remembered about Miss Watts.

JONES: Well, I always thought she was very gracious, very, very circumspect about what she said about the people. She was very strong in what she thought the settlement ought to do. She hated to see, like the Priest Building change from a dance pavilion sort of thing, to something else. But I always admired what I heard, that she would go to 19:00what, the Methodist church one Sunday and the Baptist church the other, the two main churches. I don't whether she ever went into any of the others, like old regular Baptist churches or not. But it was sort of an even handness [handedness] I think. I think she accepted the people and adopted them as her own, even though she was an entirely different kind of person. And she represented. I thought, the best of those settlement school workers, many of whom, I think, were probably culturally imperialistic, you know, in terms of thinking that they needed to supplant the culture there. It seemed to me that she worked patiently in doing what she did. And she was always a great member of the board I think. Well, for just a minute it seemed to me that the former directors at Pine Mountain wielded a great 20:00deal of power if something happened there they didn't approve of, by rallying the alumni and so forth, if there was a director that they didn't like, or the director doing things, you know. And Miss Watts, I think, would never have done that. She would have recognized it, if she were outvoted or whatever. And I think she would have graciously accepted it, unless she thought we were maneuvering to do something that she fundamentally couldn't agree with. So, I appreciated her for that, and it seemed to me that at some of the other schools, former directors maybe have stayed on too long and sort of wielded a kind of influence that may or may not have been good. My general feeling about things like that is, 21:00when I left the Appalachian Center, there are a lot of things that I don't approve of and upset about, like the museum. But there is a new director there and new things, while I'll say whatever I please about it, I wouldn't try to meddle in all of that. I just think that people need to graciously move on, once they quit. And she was able to do that, I think, but keep engaged in affairs in a fine way. And I think your father is very good at showing particular attention to someone like that. He visited her down there, got her that motorized vehicle, and things. [Laughter] I visited her once, when she was in the nursing home, but I know your father went many times, and I think that was important to her. Because quite often old people, they go off to the nursing home and then they get a Christmas card.

C.M.: Okay, I've asked you the main questions in terms of being a board member. Are 22:00there things maybe that I haven't asked you about, like with your association with the settlement that you think would be important to this oral history project? Maybe your experiences with the settlement school, or people that you've known that stand out in your mind?

JONES: Well, I guess you're probably doing this, you're interviewing the alumni, but I think it's probably important to interview townspeople and people in Knott County, who never went to school there.

C.M.: Who never went there, right.

JONES: Just to see what they think about it, whether they have reservations about it. And whether or not the reservations are valid. We can always decide later whether or not they know anything and are just popping off.

C.M.: Yeah, I've gotten to do that with a couple of people. Like you said, I've tried to prioritize people I want to talk to, and every now and then I'll just run into somebody. But that has been interesting too. I've gotten to do a few people that didn't go to school there or even have any kids that 23:00went there, they just lived there and knew about it.

JONES: Well, I think it is important in an oral history to try to find out sort of what the rumors are about the school and things like that.

C.M.: Yeah, oh I do too.

JONES: And it would be interesting to know, you know based on the Quare women's diaries. There was a lot in there that was pretty negative, because they mentioned names and used old words like filthy and not just that the house wasn't swept, but it was filthy, which is a pretty strong C.M.: Strong term.

JONES: And yet she was talking about Cometts or Amburgeys or somebody. [Laughing] I don't know whether, it would be interesting to know whether there was an awareness on the part of some of these families that they were being sort of criticized basically or not.

C.M.: Yeah, I think you're right. I'm going to pause this just for a second. 24:00JONES: The nice thing about Hindman is that it seems to be open to new possibilities and so forth. I think a lot of the other schools, probably the management was not open to a lot of things that were going on in the neighborhood, other than what they were doing. And I think the fact that your father is from the area and he's got friends who are Mulers, [Laughter] C.M.: Yeah.

JONES: Who are doing things in the region, he's far more open to doing things in connection with government and county and state and so forth, than maybe a lot of other people would do. And I think as long as there's that openness, there will always be a role for Hindman Settlement School. And it may be something entirely different in the future, 25:00but the facilities are good and I think that a lot of things can happen. But just a place to meet there, for a lot of these groups are important. And the fact that we took in the East Kentucky Tutorial Program, which is certainly not as prominent a program. I don't know how effective, I mean relatively effective it is now from what it was, because of the things that happened at Foxfire and everything. But it seemed to me it was something that we needed to be doing, and somebody needed to be doing. And if we could sort of take it under our wing and keep it going, it might spin off and become its own program sometime. It might be able to serve its function, I don't know. But there will be other things that we will be doing. And of course, I've always felt in terms 26:00of these settlement schools, the big un-met need, that nobody was capable of maybe because it would take so much money, would be an alternative type school for high school dropouts, or for people who needed a new start. Maybe women who are divorced or widowed or separated, whatever or men that just made a foolish decision and quit high school and so forth. I think there is a real need somewhere for a way to start some kids over again who are the dropouts. We don't have as many dropouts as we did, but in terms of adults, I believe we are still about only fifty percent high school educated in Kentucky. And yet everybody shies away from that. I always thought Pine Mountain would be just a wonderful place for, if we had unlimited funding, if somebody would endow it with twenty-five million, we could really make 27:00a place for people that need a second start in life. And I think this new activity school that Jane Stevenson did is an example of what can be done, if you have caring people taking people who are looking for a new avenue and getting them sort of plugged in, and with a little bit of confidence that they can do it. That is a remarkable program when you think about it. And it is only a, just a little part time program, one month at a time to turn those people around.

C.M.: Yeah, I read about that.

JONES: So, I think that there are a lots of things like that, that could be done in the region., that probably the community colleges can't do. And that the GED program probably, well I know can't do. Because a lot of the GED programs 28:00are good, but a lot of them, I think it doesn't really change anybody that much, you know like a good educational program might do. So, I think there's work to be done out there. Especially if we, a la Bill Bishop, if we raise the educational level. And if all the industries in the state were interested in really building on the skills of their workers, rather than just trying to compete for the lowest wage people who come and go. I think there is a real role for educational institutions to maybe help industries improve the quality of their workforce. So education, there is no end to, I think the opportunity there. 29:00C.M.: Okay.

END OF INTERVIEW