Oral History Interview with Marcia Smith Lawrence

CASSIE MULLINS: Get it moving. Let's say, today's date is July the twentieth, nineteen ninety-eight. If you don't care, just state your name and where we are today.

MARCIA SMITH LAWRENCE: Marcia Smith Lawrence and my home in Lexington. Do you want the address?

C.M.: If you want to give it.

LAWRENCE: One eight three three Dalma Drive, Lexington, 40505.

C.M.: All righty. Now let's get started. What year did you graduate?

LAWRENCE: I graduated in nineteen forty-three.

C.M.: I have those dates written down, but I always like to ask people, because sometimes there has been a couple times where we've just been off a few years. [Laughing] Because, I don't know. Things get messed up like that on the computer, so I like to ask people. Okay, let's just start, tell me a little bit about growing up when you were living in Knott County and your family.

LAWRENCE: Well, I was 1:00the third child in my family. I had a brother and a sister older than I, and a brother younger. And I'm not going to get through this with my voice. It's going to leave.

C.M.: Okay.

LAWRENCE: I may have brought a mint. We were all born in Hindman, my mother lived in the county, close to Floyd County and she moved over into Hindman, when she and dad got married. We lived real close to the school, the old grade school building. My mother used to tell, when I was really young, before I could go to school. And I guess this says something about what kind of person I was. When it was time during recess or time for school to get out, I used to take myself out on the front porch and sing, which always humiliated me to be reminded of that. 2:00I could see the kids down on their recess and everything. Of course, after school and when we were little, we played on the school grounds. A big, brown building. A great big building. I don't remember, really remember when the high school was built. I was really quite young. I went to the eight grades in the old grade school building. And had teachers from every place. I think we had one or two local teachers. There was Vinnie Dyer was a teacher and Devon Pratt, at one time was a teacher in the grade school. Dale Smith also taught in the grade school. But then there was Miss Manzart and Miss Kessell and, hmm, I can't remember. We had several 3:00that were from different states. It was just delightful growing up in Hindman and going to school in Hindman. I think we were blessed with all the teachers, when we were exposed to different, people from different cultures. And that's meant a great deal to me, more after I became an adult, than it did when it was going on.

C.M.: What was that like? Like you said, here you are in the middle of eastern Kentucky, in this little town, and you had these teachers just from all over. Did you think anything of it then?

LAWRENCE: Well it was really wonderful, because we learned things from them. And then there were funny things, you know, their reaction. We lived so close to the school, my mother knew everybody. And my mother was a marvelous cook, and a lot of the teachers, who of course the f( 4:00) on one, lived in the settlement school. And they used to come over to our house and climb the many steps up to the house and have, Mother would bake pies. And we'd have dessert or just visit. So, we knew them. I was named for one of the people who came to the settlement school. Her name was Marcia Cook. And Marcia Cook stayed there, I don't really don't know how long, but I was named for her. When she left the settlement, she married a man who was in the state department. And she traveled all over the world with him, wherever he went for his assignment. And I remember, she used to send me things from different countries. And the one thing I remember was from Turkey, I think, were little, red shoes that turned up at the toes and had bells on and a little, red 5:00kimono type thing. So, I was proud of that, of course. She came back one time. I think perhaps I was a freshman in high school at the time. And I can remember walking around the campus with her, but then we lost touch and I never knew what happened to her. But that was, there was a teacher there from Florida one time, who was a man. And I can't remember whether he taught... I was in grade school. I don't remember whether he taught in grade school or he was teaching in high school. But the first time it snowed, he went rushing out and held his hands up and yelled, what did he say it was? I swear I can't remember, 6:00something from heaven. And I can't remember what it was he said. But he almost lost his mind over seeing, that was the first snow he had ever seen in his lifetime.

C.M.: Oh, yeah?

LAWRENCE: Yeah.

C.M.: That's funny.

LAWRENCE: It was funny.

C.M.: Now talking about, a little bit about your grade school years, you've mentioned some of your teachers, of course. I guess maybe, try to give me an idea of what it was like to be in grade school at Hindman then. I know there would a lot of similarities, of course just like now, you're going to school. What did all the classes, there was one building, right?

LAWRENCE: One building, but there was a Kindergarten building. And I went to Kindergarten four years. [Laughing] C.M.: You did. [Laughing] LAWRENCE: I thought it was always significant, that I never got bored. The Kindergarten teacher lived in 7:00the, they called it the Practice Home, I guess. It was on the flat, where the cabin is now. And she used to stop and pick me up and carry me, and take me to Kindergarten. So, I went for four years. She and mother were good friends. I guess that was her payment for the lemon pie and apple pie and everything that she had from mom. I can remember, I ought remember something about that, four years, oughtn't I. That we all had little blankets that they put on the floor for our rest time. I enjoyed Kindergarten, but that's as far as I remember. The grade school was three different levels. First and second grade, and I think a part of third grade 8:00were on the lower level. And the other part of the third grade and fourth grade and fifth and sixth were on the ground level in the front, which would be the second story, second level. And then the seventh and eighth grades were up on the top floor. And there were two wooden staircases going up to the third floor. Only one going down to the first floor for the front, as I recall. But there was an entrance from the back onto that, because that was ground level in the back of the building. On the third floor there was a stage and that's where all the plays and things were done when I was going to school there. Oh! It was interesting, 9:00the teachers were interesting. I enjoyed school. I always liked school. I don't know that it was different from other schools. I think the main difference in going to school at Hindman and going to school anyplace else in the county, were the teachers that came from all over.

C.M.: I guess that would be true. Let's talk a little bit about, since you never did live on campus, did you? You lived right there. I mean pretty much right next to it. [Laughing] What was, I guess what was Hindman like then growing up, maybe in your later grade school years and high school years, the town itself?

LAWRENCE: Well, the town was, I guess the one thing you could say about it, it had role models galore. And you really were afraid to do much of anything, because of the older people in town. If you got in trouble, 10:00not only your mom and dad you displeased. But you would displease Doc Duke and his wife, Evie, and Hillard and Dorothy Smith, just all the people in town, you know. I think they sort of kept people on the straight and narrow, because of what they'd think about you. We had one place in town, well there were about three places in town, where you could have, we had a good time. There were a couple of drugstores. One of them, as I recall, had a jukebox and you could dance. And then there was a place called the Palace Lunch, that was a restaurant and it had a dance floor and a jukebox. And we were allowed to go down there after school and dance. So, we didn't have cars. We couldn't go to Hazard. We didn't have a movie. 11:00So, we had candy parties. We'd get together at somebody's house and make candy and stuff like that. It was always fun the first day of court, so many people you couldn't move. A lot of times, we'd try to get things to do on the first day of court to earn a little money. We'd sell watermelon out on the street. And that's all I remember selling. But you worked real hard at trying to work with somebody, to earn a little money on the first day of court.

C.M.: So, I guess people came from all over the county to, since that was the county seat.

LAWRENCE: All over and people would bring horses into town and they would horse trade down close to the bridge in town. Underneath there, there was a big store building there, that was Benton Newlin's store, I think. It was a dry goods store. And it was sort of open underneath, 12:00it was sort of, almost like on stilts or something. And they used to run the, ride the horses, mules, everything, up and down. And of course, they were going under the store and nipping a little moonshine down there, too. [Laughter -Mullins] And they say that they used to put, what did they call it? Hot something. They would put something on the horse's skin, that would irritate them and make them run. So, they acted a little more lively than they really were, I guess, when they were doing all the horse trading down there. I can remember, I think, when the street of Hindman was tree-lined on both sides.

C.M.: I bet that was pretty.

LAWRENCE: It was, and I think I can remember, well it was dirt. The street was dirt. And 13:00I can remember, I think, when they cut the trees down and paved the street. I didn't realize then what a tragedy it was.

C.M.: No kidding.

LAWRENCE: I don't really know what to tell you about the place.

C.M.: Well that's a pretty good description. I was just trying to get an idea, like you were talking about things you all did in court.

LA WREN CE: I remember for Halloween one time, somebody, there was behind one of the stores...I guess it was behind the drugstore. Now, what would be there now? They had an outside toilet and almost every year, mean boys would go down and get that toilet and bring it up. Just pick it up and carry it up and set it on Main, out on the street out there, you know. Really bad. 14:00[Laughter -Mullins] We had fun in Hindman. One thing we used to do, I used to do, go up to the courthouse and listen to trials.

C.M.: That's what somebody else told me.

LAWRENCE: Right, right.

C.M.: So, you would just go up, you could just go in and listen to what was going on?

LAWRENCE: And I can remember also up in the courthouse, too bad that Ada's not in here and I could confirm something with her. They used to have box suppers up there. Where the girls, the women... do you know about box suppers?

C.M.: I kinda, well tell me a little bit more, I've heard different things.

LAWRENCE: Well, the females would all fix a box lunch, except it was at night time, so it would be supper. And they'd take the boxes and then they would be auctioned off. And if somebody had a boyfriend, why the boyfriend would try to buy the box of his girlfriend. 15:00And then they would eat supper together. And then I remember one time that they had a dance down there. Because I remember going, and it was the first time I ever had a pair of high heeled shoes and I got blisters that like to kill me. [Laughing] So, there were community things that went on at the courthouse. It was upstairs in the old courthouse.

C.M. : Yeah, I think somebody else had told me about a box lunch thing, but nothing about having it in town, like that. I think that's kind of neat.

LAWRENCE: And we all used to, I guess we had some cars around or a truck or something, and go out into the country and go to stir-offs. I remember going to one down on Big Branch one time.

C.M.: What's that now?

LAWRENCE: Where they make molasses.

C.M.: Molasses, okay.

LAWRENCE: And the mule goes around and around and grinds the, and then they had a big trough that the juice goes into 16:00and it's cooked. And you could take a part of the cane stalk and dip into it and eat some of it out of the thing. That was always fun. And then they always had a place, a hole in the ground where they would pour ...They would skim the scum off the top, the suds sort of, and put it in there. And they'd sort of disguise that and hope somebody would step into it, and someone always did. [Laughter] C.M.: I'd say so.

LAWRENCE: Mr. Still has a poem about the stir-off someplace, I think, in his book of poetry.

C.M.: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I can't remember it exactly, but I feel like I've seen that too. Let's talk a little bit about being in high school then. We've talked about some of your grade school memories or teachers. 17:00I guess maybe, what were your favorite classes when you were in high school, the things that you enjoyed?

LAWRENCE: I liked English. I liked the English classes and the history classes. And I loathed math. In fact, I took algebra I, two years. And always did hate math.

C.M.: Yeah, I do too, pretty much.

LAWRENCE: Of course we all, you know, basketball was the big sport.

C.M.: Yeah.

LAWRENCE: We never had football at Hindman, when I was there. They didn't have a field big enough to play it in, [Laughing] nor enough boys to make the team.

C.M.: So, what about people talking, I've heard various things about basketball. How big of a deal was it?

LAWRENCE: Oh, it was everything. It was everything. And the gym would always be full for basketball games. And of course, Pearl Combs was there and he was beloved 18:00by everybody. You know he was the coach. And he was brother to Beckham Combs, who was superintendent of the schools, a great deal of the time that I was there. There were some other superintendents in between, but not many. And we all went to the ball games. And then it was a scramble when we played games away from home to get rides to go.

C.M.: Oh yeah, I'd say it would be.

LAWRENCE: I can't remember going on school buses. I really can't remember that. Maybe we did, but I don't recall it. And then you know we'd play in tournaments, you'd go to the tournament. And Hindman had really, they had good teams. In fact, they won the state tournament the year I was a senior.

C.M.: Really?

LAWRENCE: Uh huh.

C.M.: What was that like?

LAWRENCE: Oh ho ho. That was just out of sight. [Laughing] It was during the war. And they played a sectional tournament, which they 19:00had never done before. They usually had a district and a regional and a state. But they played a sectional tournament, which I think was in Richmond that year. To save on gasoline I suppose, so that people maybe wouldn't have to travel. And then the tournament was played here in Lexington. And we won, and of course we all lost our minds.

C.M.: Were you there? Did you get to go?

LAWRENCE: Oh yes, I was there! It was my classmates that were on the team, Charlie Combs and Eugene Slone and I can't remember all of them right now. So, that was all exciting. But the whole town got into that, all the town people 20:00went to the ball games all the time. Hazard, we loathed Hazard with a passion. [Laughter] They were our biggest enemy, I guess.

C.M.: Oh, I'd say so.

LAWRENCE: They had a much bigger school. They had more kids to choose from. And of course, we always accused them of moving good players into Hazard, so they could play for them.

C.M.: Right. Pretty much like they do now, just about everywhere in the country. [Laughing] LAWRENCE: One thing that I remember that was fun. You know, we always had a recreation teacher. By the time I got into school, it wasn't just settlement school, it was ....

C.M.: It was a public school.

LAWRENCE: Well, it was public, partly public and partly the settlement. The settlement, I think, when I was in high school, supplied, I guess is the word, the home ec. teacher, the manual training teacher, the recreation 21:00teacher, the music teacher and art. Yeah, art teacher. So, it was a collaboration between the public system and the settlement school. And I can remember when they built the recreation building that's up on the hill at the settlement school. We used to go up there one night a week and folk dance up there.

C.M.: Oh really?

LAWRENCE: Oh yeah, that was fun. And that was open to town kids, too. We could go.

C.M.: So you actually were instructed in folk dancing. Was there somebody there that taught you all the different things?

LAWRENCE: Oh yeah. It was done by the recreation teacher, would teach folk dancing. Jane 22:00Bishop was there at the time. She was there for several years. And she remained active in folk dancing, maybe until this day. She goes to Berea to take part in the folk dancing things. But it was fun. It was just fun growing up in a small town, at a small school. And you knew everybody and you knew all the teachers.

C.M.: Did you all learn much about ballads or songs or things like that? I guess you had music class. Were the things that were emphasized, things of the region?

LAWRENCE: Yeah, yes. Well, I was particularly interested in them. Jean Ritchie was there, part of the time I was there, too.

C.M.: Really? 23:00LAWRENCE: Right. So, she taught.

C.M.: Okay, I didn't know that.

LAWRENCE: I can't remember that we had music lessons as such. But we certainly were exposed to all the ballads and everything. Another thing that was really, really great at Hindman, and they did it for years, was the Christmas program. Has anybody ever told you about the Christmas program?

C.M.: I've heard different things, but I'd like to hear ...

LAWRENCE: Well, it was a big, community thing. And they'd have an enormous tree and they had a Christmas play that had the three wise men and I mean it was....It seemed like it was two or three hours long. It was the whole thing, you know. And they had an enormous tree and townspeople would put gifts, everybody would put gifts under the tree for other people. And then a few 24:00of the townspeople, when the program was over, they would go and take the packages and call out names. And people would go get them. It was big, it was a really, an enormous, well it was one of the biggest Christmas things going, you know. And they would give, they had a stocking of candy and stuff for kids at that. They would give it out as everybody was leaving or something. But it was wonderful. The costumes were elaborate. And my sister had dark hair and dark eyes, and she always wanted to be an angel in the Christmas play. She said she never could be anything but a little, old, dirty wassailer, because she wasn't blond. [Laughter] I don't know whether, Alma Smith, who was Big Smith's family there, not 25:00any relation to us. She was chosen to be an angel, and the Smith girls, of which there were many, all were born with straight hair and then as they became adults, their hair turned curly. But Alma was going to be in the Christmas play as an angel and she said, angels have to have curly hair. So, she made her mother put her hair up in rags, wrap it in rags to curl it, to go to the Christmas program and be an angel. And when she took it down, it was just cork screwed all over...

C.M.: Everywhere.

LAWRENCE: So, she had to end up getting it wet and going as a straight-haired angel after all. She used to tell that story all the time. That, Christmas was a really big deal. The men would go out and settlement school boys would go up in the hills and find an enormous tree and bring it down. It was in the gymnasium. That tree would reach almost to the top 26:00of the gymnasium. It was really big.

C.M.: I just think that is so neat, that it was so involved and everybody got together.

LAWRENCE: It was the community, and it's lost, it's gone. They don't do that anymore, it's too bad.

C.M.: I wish they did. I think that is really neat. Who were some of your favorite teachers or maybe teachers that you remember in high school, even if they weren't your favorite?

LAWRENCE: Well, Betty Combs was one. She taught English and she had come from Oberlin, Oberlin College. As a matter of fact, if it hadn't been for Betty Combs coming from Oberlin to teach at Hindman, I would never have met my husband.

C.M. : Really?

LAWRENCE: Uh huh, he was her first cousin, and he came down with his father to visit with her in nineteen 27:00forty-nine. And that is when I met him.

C.M.: Well, that's neat.

LAWRENCE: One of my grade school teachers was Miss Manzart from California. And she taught one section of the third grade and the fourth grade, all of the fourth grade, I guess. And she was a great teacher. And of course, there was Clara Miles Standish, she was the librarian. And I went to her one time, to ask her where to find something. And she was from Boston and she was a descendant of Miles Standish. And I asked her where I could find something, and she said, "Look in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Marciar." You know Bostonians put an "r" on all their ... [Laughter] So, she was, I liked her 28:00real well. And then there was Miss Kessell, and I don't remember where Miss Kessell came from. She taught fifth grade, no sixth grade. And she had a full head of beautiful, white hair. And it was always wavy and everything. And she wore a little, white net on it all the time. They used to say that Miss Kessell wore a wig. And we didn't know whether she did or not. So, one time I was standing behind her. Her desk, her desk was in the back of the room, which I think about that now, and that was strange.

C.M.: Kind of odd.

LAWRENCE: And the blackboards were up front, but her desk was back there and her chair. So, I was back standing behind her, asking something, doing something. And there was one hair sticking up and I thought well, 29:00I'll see if it is a wig or not. So, I pulled the hair and she reached up and went like that. So, I said, she doesn't wear a wig, that's her own hair.

C.M.: That's a good way to find out though, isn't it?

LAWRENCE: I know. My dad went to school at Hindman, also. All of his family went there. As a matter of fact, his father, I think, sold the ladies the land, that the settlement schools on.

C.M.: Yeah, I think you are right. Yeah, I talked to your uncle.

LAWRENCE: Did you talk to Afton?

C.M.: Yeah.

LAWRENCE: Did you?

C.M.: And he gave me, I'll have to show it to you when we are finished. Something that he sat down at wrote out his memories.

LAWRENCE: Is that right?

C.M.: And I don't know if he did it recently or a couple of years ago, because he said he had a hard time remembering a lot of different things. And so he gave it to me to keep. And it's just really neat. 30:00LAWRENCE: Well, you know I think some of our relatives like to say that the land, that my grandfather gave the ladies the land. He didn't give it to them. He couldn't afford to give it to them. He sold it to them.

C.M.: He sold it. Yeah, that's what he told me too, that's what Afton told me, that he sold it.

LAWRENCE: I think he uh ...

BEGINNING OFTAPE 20 A32, MARCIA SMITH LAWRENCE, SIDE B C.M.: That's pretty neat that they would come and visit with your mom and things.

LAWRENCE: Yeah. Even after we moved to Frogtown, away from where we were right in the grade school door practically, a lot of the teachers would come. They all liked my mother. My mother was always jolly and friendly and everything. It was a real good experience. I can't think of any of them that I didn't like.

C.M.: One thing that you mentioned earlier that I was thinking about, 31:00cause you would have been in high school during the war, like you said. What kind of effect do you remember that having on the town itself? Did it drastically change the way that you all might have gone about your daily lives?

LA WRENCE: I don't think so. I think a lot of people, well it cleaned out a lot of the young men around. And I lost a brother during the war. So, there was a lot of sadness to it. Many men from the county were gone, you know, young men. I guess I felt that it had more to do with my college life, than it did with high school. Because in forty-three when I left high school, 32:00you know, it was still going. And when I got into college there were very few men on campus. All the young men had gone off. Oh, I think the losses that Hindman had from boys being killed and everything had a great effect on the people.

C.M.: Yeah, because it is such a small town.

LAWRENCE: Yeah, and everybody is so close, and everybody knew everybody. And then you were proud of them too, I guess in a way, but oh my, the prices some of them had to pay.

C.M.: Now, where did you end up? What did you do after high school? You said you went to college.

LAWRENCE: I went to Kentucky Wesleyan, graduated from there. Taught school for one disastrous year up at Hindman. [Laughter] C.M.: You did?

LAWRENCE: I was not a teacher. I just really was not. 33:00I taught freshman and sophomore English one year at Hindman and that was enough. I just wasn't a good teacher. Although I bumped into a gal, about a year or so ago, that said she had gone to, was in one of my classes. And I said, "Oh, you poor thing." And she said, "No, it's because of you, that I became a teacher." She said, "I taught all my life. I taught and then I got into administration." And she said, "It was just because of you." That's the first justification for my year that I spent up there, that I'd ever had. [Laughing] So, I was real appreciative.

C.M.: () LAWRENCE: I know, it was hilarious. I couldn't believe what she was saying to me.

C.M.: Must not have been as bad as you thought.

LAWRENCE: Because I felt like I was such an utter failure, really. Then 34:00I worked for an airline for a while. I was a reservation agent for Delta Airlines, up in Cincinnati. And then I had met Betty Combs' cousin and we got married and I moved to Cleveland and lived there for twenty-two years. And it ended up, my husband and I worked together and when we came down here, we still worked together for a long time. We had a public accounting business.

C.M.: Oh, neat.

LAWRENCE: We worked right downstairs here, we had our office. Most of our clients were out of state, all over, California to Florida to New York.

C.M.: That's pretty neat though.

LAWRENCE: So, it's been a long time. I go back to Hindman, frequently, because I'm on the board at the bank. And then of course, my brother is there. He and I are the only two left in my family.

C.M.: Okay, I didn't know that. 35:00LAWRENCE: I wish I could have gone to Mr. Still's party.

C.M.: I know, I missed it too. I'm in trouble. I'm going to be in trouble when I see him.

I'm going to have to think of something. Be on my toes when I see him, cause he'll get me. [Laughing] LAWRENCE: There was something about it on the news.

C.M.: I know, I saw it.

LAWRENCE: Looked like they all had a good time.

C.M.: Right. But if you want to visit with him, that's not a good time to do it.

LAWRENCE: Oh, I know. He probably was mobbed.

C.M.: Oh, I'm sure he was. He's probably worn out. Well let's see, I guess we've talked about a lot of different things. Usually I ask just about everybody this question, thinking back on it now and your relationship with Hindman and the settlement school. But as you said, they were kind of working together when you were in school there. But you had a different relationship, because you were right there on the campus, almost. How do you think it impacted your life, just being a graduate of there? 36:00LAWRENCE: Oh, I think it was invaluable. I don't know that I was so much aware of it, when I was going through it. But looking back now, we were so fortunate, I think.

C.M.: In what ways do you think you all were so fortunate?

LAWRENCE: Well, I just think that we were taught.. ..we were taught good grammar, we were taught manners and the exposure of the different people, we talked about that, from the different cultures, was helpful. Some of the kids coming from school today, their grammar is absolutely atrocious 37:00now. And it was stressed very much, that you speak proper English. And I think that is so important, because .. .I always tell my nieces and neph, my nieces. I don't do much with my nephews. Your first impression, the first impression that people make of you, is from the way you look, and the second is from the way you speak.

C.M.: Way you talk, yeah.

LAWRENCE: And we had much more, that was stressed much more then, than it is now. I may be wrong about that, but it seems to me a lot of these kids don't speak very well. And it was smaller, you knew everybody. These consolidated schools, I'm glad I didn't go to one of those. We knew all of our teachers 38:00and got more attention I suppose, because of small classes and everything. There was only about twenty some in my graduating class. So it was small. That was why it was so fantastic that we won the state tournament, with so few people.

C.M.: That is amazing.

LAWRENCE: That was a tribute to Mr. Coach, Mr. Combs, he was such a good coach. I feel very warm towards Hindman. I go back often and enjoy being there. It means a lot to me.

C.M.: Yeah, I can tell. Well, is there anything that I haven't maybe asked you about, about your years in school?

LAWRENCE: No, I don't think so. I don't think there is anything really particularly remarkable about.. . .it was just the people. The people, my people and the townspeople 39:00and the settlement people, we all, everything went well.

C.M.: Okay, I'll stop this now.

END OF INTERVIEW