Oral History Interview with Dalma Sturdivant

CASSIE MULLINS: Turn it on and get it going. Make sure it's going okay. And I'll just say today's date is June the twenty-fourth, nineteen ninety-eight. If you don't care, just go ahead and state your name, so we'll have it on here.

DALMA STURDIVANT: My name is Dalma Pigman Sturdivant. Want my birth date?

C.M.: Sure if you don't care to tell it to us.

STURDIVANT: I was born June the twenty-sixth, nineteen nineteen.

C.M.: And now where did you grow up?

STURDIVANT: Carr.

C.M.: On Carr Creek?

STURDIVANT: And I attended a one-room school until I went to Carr Creek high school, that was in nineteen and thirty-five. 1:00And then after one year over there, I came to Hindman to work on a WPA [Works Progress Administration] job in the courthouse doing a survey for the University of Kentucky on foreclosures, mortgage foreclosures. And I worked there until that job ran out. And then I went to school at Hindman High School, Hindman Settlement School. And that was in nineteen thirty-five, six, thirty-six, seven. And then I went back to Carr Creek for a year and then I came back to Hindman. And got married that summer. That ended... I started back into high school as an adult C.M.: Oh did you?

STURDIVANT: After I was married, but that was very unusual then.

C.M.: Right.

STURDIVANT: And I kind of felt 2:00out of place. So I just became a housewife, a homemaker.

C.M.: Well, there's nothing wrong with that, that's for sure. Now you were telling me, before I turned the tape recorder on that you tried to get into the settlement earlier. Tell me about that situation again, so we can have it on tape.

STURDIVANT: Well, my father died June the twenty-fourth, nineteen twenty-nine and left my mother with five children and I think in July, late in July of that same year, we came to see Miss Stone about getting into school, my sister and I. But it was already filled up, we would have been in the Little Girls' House I guess. So, I've always regretted that we weren't able to come. It would have really been wonderful for us.

C.M.: So 3:00the years that you did go to school up here, you were already in high school, right? Like you said. Did you stay over there?

STURDIVANT: No C.M.: Where did you stay?

STURDIVANT: No, I was working and I stayed with a family, the Elsie Young family.

C.M.: Uh hmm.

STURDIVANT: And washed dishes and helped cook, for my bosom and board. And then I was having to help support my mother and the other children.

C.M.: Yeah, how did you do that?

STURDIVANT: There was no work, that was during the Depression. I worked on this job in the courthouse making surveys of people who had borrowed money or had mortgages and somebody had to foreclose on them. It was a project that the university was working on, I guess, 4:00for the government, or something. But anyway I went there, I had to get up. They allowed me to work in the afternoon. So I came to the early classes at school, which was about seven o'clock. And then I took off at three and worked in the afternoon. And I only made about forty dollars a month, so I had to send my mother most of that. And that went on, well then after that job ended, I didn't have any other income. So I worked for every day of school I got, after my father died.

C.M.: And you were just ten years old then, weren't you?

STURDIVANT: Yes.

C.M.: Gosh. So during that time of the depression, 5:00of course that's one thing that we're trying to learn about, you know, just even that time period. What were things like? What was it like living in Knott County at that time?

STURDNANT: Well, after we couldn't get in the settlement, I went to Lofair (??). I had an older sister, that was already married, a half-sister. I stayed with her and went to school. Her husband worked in the mines, they were out of work half the time, on strike. So it was, I think the smallpox epidemic broke out in about February of that year, so they had to close the school then. So then I went back home and then I think when I was in the fifth or sixth grade, I stayed with one of my cousins who lived close to the school. And did just general work, housework, washing dishes, helping cook, milking 6:00cows and gathering eggs. That was a good life though.

C.M.: Was it?

STURDIVANT: That was my kind of life, you know, working on a farm. So I stayed there for about two or three years. That was Alvie Banks' mother. Alvie was my cousin. Alvie's mother and my father were first cousins. Do you remember Alvie?

C.M.: I think so. Yeah.

STURDIVANT: Well, everybody else was in the same situation, just about. A few people had money and raised crops and gardens and everything. I think it was a real learning experience for all of us. Because we appreciate more now, what we didn't have then. 7:00Well you could get, everything was real cheap. You could buy sugar for almost nothing, if you had the money to buy it.

C.M.: Yeah, I guess that would be the hard part. So was there, I guess, maybe some people had bigger gardens than other people. How did that work? Did people help each other out, were they small town?

STURDIVANT: Well, I don't know if they helped each other, but everybody did have to raise gardens and can stuff. A lot of people said they were poor and didn't know it.

C.M.: I've heard people say that.

STURDIVANT: So then, I think when I went back to Carr Creek 8:00the second year, they had a program, what did they call it? NYA [National Youth Administration] or something, National Youth ...

C.M.: Okay.

STURDIVANT: Where you could work and they'd give you a little money to go to school on. But you had to work for your room and board over there and they were supported too by the DAR [Daughters of the American Revolution].

C.M.: Okay. Well let's see, another thing that I've been interested in, what was town like then, maybe in your high school days, like?

STURDIVANT: Oh, it was quite different from what it is now.

C.M.: I figured that.

STURDIVANT: And Lib Smith, Lib Cornett. Lib and I used to come to town every evening after school, when court was going on, circuit court, and listen to the trials 9:00up in the courthouse. Well, I think, I don't know if this town was wet then or not. I believe it was.

C.M.: I thought it might be.

STURDIVANT: I believe so. I think it was wet until Brother Bill, and he made a campaign to get it voted out. And on Saturday afternoons that whole town would be full of people.

C.M.: Would it?

STURDIVANT: Yeah, so different now. And everybody, back then the women would all dress up and come to town in the afternoons on Saturdays, through the week too. And now, you don't see anybody on the street on Saturday afternoons.

C.M.: It sounds like it was a pretty big deal.

STURDIVANT: It was, it was kind of a bustling town, back then.

C.M.: What sort of stores were there, that people came to.

STURDIVANT: Well, we had Young's, a department store, and Sheldon Magurd had a store. And 10:00there was a store there where the city hall is, I believe that belonged to Carl Perkins. And then there was Benton Newlins general store where they sold everything. And then I think there was a drugstore, ( ) Parkins drugstore. And of course, the Bank of Hindman, and my brother-in-law had a register there, at the bank. Well, they tore it down though and made a parking lot. And but then there was quite a bit of tragedy that happened, you know due to the sale of whiskey though.

C.M.: Really?

STURDIVANT: And we were all glad that it was voted out.

C.M.: Yeah. 11:00So did it make it more dangerous?

STURDIVANT: It was dangerous, yes. Because one time, I had gone down. ( ) had a drug store there, right beside the bank, the building that was torn down. And there was a whiskey store across the street. And I had just gone into the (Rose & M) drugstore and walked toward the back and we heard some shots. And I was on my way to the Young's department store. We heard some shots and a just a passer by got shot, Quentin Hale, and he died later.

C.M.: Goodness!

STURDIVANT: I think the sheriff too, yeah he was deputy sheriff, got shot and he died later. And then the man that shot him was shot. And there were little 12:00things like that, that happened.

C.M.: And those happened just downtown. That's wild. You were talking about you and Lib going to watch court. What did you all do? Tell me about that. That sounds kind of interesting.

STURDIVANT: Well we just listened to cases, like murder cases and all kinds of cases. It was really interesting and educational. Well that was part of our entertainment. And I still like things like that.

C.M.: Do you remember any interesting ones that you all listened to, maybe ones that stick out in your mind?

STURDIVANT: Yeah, we listened to a murder case one time that he got, I believe that was the first man in Knott County, that got sentenced to death.

C.M.: Really? 13:00STURDIVANT: I think he robbed and killed a man over on Montgomery Creek. I forgot the man's name now, that did it. But we listened in on that. We listened to several murder cases, I've forgot a lot of them. But I do remember that one, because the first, I believe it was the first one sentenced to death. And let's see, we had to go to Hazard to see a movie, because we didn't have anything like that in Hindman.

C.M.: Yeah. Well that's the same today. [Laughter] How often would you do something like that?

STURDIVANT: Well, one thing Lib and I did, her sister Orne was a nurse. And 14:00Orne used to take us to Hazard every Saturday afternoon just about. We'd buy hamburgers and loaf around. What was your question now?

C.M.: What did I just ask? Shoot I can't even remember. Oh, you were talking about going to the movies and I said about how often would you do that?

STURDIVANT: We went pretty regular.

C.M.: Did you?

STURDIVANT: I remember one time going with Bill Smith and Marie and all of his children, Charlotte, Marsha and Billy and Randy. And I don't remember the movie we saw. You know how it is with a bunch of children. It's fussing all the way. I was older, well Charlotte and I were pretty close to the same age. We were in the same class. Did you ever know Charlotte?

C.M.: I don't 15:00think I did.

STURDIVANT: You know Marsha, don't you?

C.M.: Yeah, I know her. I don't think I know Charlotte though.

STURDIVANT: Well she died, oh four or five years ago.

C.M.: Well , I guess that must have been some trip, going to Hazard then. How long would that take?

STURDIVANT: The roads, we had a gravel road here. It wasn't built until nineteen and I believe thirty-five. I know it was gravel for a long time, over to Dwarf.

C.M.: Right.

STURDIVANT: And then after you got to Dwarf, you were on blacktop.

C.M.: So, would you get to Dwarf and then ...

STURDIVANT: No somebody would drive it.. ...

C.M: But did you turn left?

STURDIVANT: Yeah, turn left.

C.M.: Turn left and go that way?

STURDIVANT: Over the (??) Mountains.

C.M.: Yeah, I still go that way sometimes, that's why I was wondering.

STURDIVANT: Well, you know I like, it's kind of dangerous, but I like the scenic way.

C.M.: Do you remember how long it would take? 16:00STURDIVANT: It takes a good hour.

C.M.: I figured so. So I guess going to Hazard was....That was a pretty fun thing to do.

STURDIVANT: Oh, yes. After I was married and had children, when they got to school. On a rainy day, I'd get on the bus, they had buses running through here then.

C.M.: Oh really?

STURDIVANT: Yeah. And I'd get on the bus and go to Hazard and shop. That's how I spent my rainy days.

C.M.: Well, that sounds like a good way to me. [Laughing] So you could catch a bus and do that. I didn't know that.

STURDNANT: Yeah they had a Marks Brothers bus that ran from Allen and Prestonsburg over clear to Hazard. And it ran three or four times a day. That's one reason we didn't have a car. That's one reason I didn't have to drive.

C.M.: That's what, I was going to ask you if you had a car to do that. That's pretty, that would be pretty nice.

STURDIVANT: And you know when we had, the settlement had their fiftieth 17:00anniversary? I'd have been in a play. I don't remember what I did then. But my husband was the preacher, I think played the part of some preacher that was here, I believe. And Sheldon Magurd was Uncle Sol. And he really made a good uncle Sol. He even looked like him. [Laughter] C.M.: I'd say that was funny.

STURDNANT: I know I had to dress up in some kind of costume. That was really something.

C.M.: Was it?

STURDIVANT: I used to have ...l saved all the papers. I think I've still got them.

C.M.: Yeah, we have, I saw a copy of that. I was reading some stuff when I was getting ready to start doing all this. That's neat though. I guess let's talk a little bit about when you went to school over at Hindman.

STURDIVANT: I was up here, at Betty Burrough's, Betty Combs. I was 18:00in her class, her first class she taught here when she got here. She taught English. And then Mr. Lovett was my Math teacher.

C.M.: And this was in high school?

STURDIVANT: Yeah.

C.M.: Okay.

STURDIVANT: And I think he taught Manual Training. They were short a teacher or something that year and he had to teach two classes in Math. He taught me Algebra. I was the dumbest one in the class. [Laughter] C.M.: I doubt that now.

STURDIVANT: And let's see, Miss Burroughs, Miss Hadley was my Home Ee teacher. And back then when we had our Banquet, the freshman girls had to serve, wear white dresses. And the sophomore girls had to help cook the food.

C.M.: For the alumni banquet?

STURDIVANT: Yeah.

C.M.: Well, what was that like?

STURDIVANT: Well I got to serve my future husband that day.

C.M.: Oh did you, well. 19:00STURDIVANT: I really enjoyed that. They had to help ... .I remember what they had. I believe they had these little tart shells with cream, chicken salad, I guess it was. I didn't have to help do that. I had to serve. And we an had to wear white dresses. And you know, we did a lot o four courting going up though the settlement.

C.M.: Did you?

STURDIVANT: Back then Mrs. Burns had a whole line of peonies and then all that honeysuckle and it was romantic. [Laughing] C.M.: Now that's something I think is interesting. How, I mean, how did you all go about courting and things like that?

STURDNANT: Well we'd take a walk up that way. You know go around that little path there across from 20:00the Great Hall.

C.M.: Yeah.

STURDIVANT: And walk up through the, by the peonies and the honeysuckle. And after a rain, that was really, romantic. [Laughter] Well, we didn't really have too much to do around here. We'd go to the drugstore and sit around and have a coke.

C.M.: But I guess as far as like, dating and things, when you were in high school. Is that what you did maybe went to the drugstore and had a coke? How did that work?

STURDIVANT: Well these older boys, because all my friends were older than me. I got acquainted with the older people. Well, yeah they'd go to the drugstore and have a coke and an ice cream or something. You'll have to ask some of these others. I've forgot a lot. But it was a real fun thing. And everybody was so nice to us. 21:00And we got married. I know Miss Bandish was one of the teachers up there. She said I don't see how you all ever got married, you're both so quiet. [Laughing].

C.M.: She said that about you and your husband?

STURDIVANT: Yeah. She told me that. Well he had, he taught, I mean he went.. . .I don't know who some of his teachers were, but he studied Cicero and all that. He was a real good student. I didn't have any of those New Englanders.

C.M.: Oh you didn't?

STURDNANT: I had Miss Burroughs .... well if I had gone on to my senior year. I was in Miss Standish's class and I think I was in Miss Cobb's class. One of the teachers made a comment 22:00that she thought I was out of place. And that kind of put a....

C.M.: Well, yeah, she shouldn't have said that.

STURDIVANT: And well now, a lot of kids go when they're married.

C.M.: Yeah. So, your husband went to school up there?

STURDIVANT: Yeah.

C.M.: Did he graduate from the settlement?

STURDIVANT: Yeah.

C.M.: Now what year did he ....

STURDIVANT: That's why I go, on account of him. He dropped out one year when they were building this highway, to help. There's a stone wall up there next to the creek.

C.M.: Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

STURDIVANT: And you know, his father died when he was young too. So he dropped out one year to make some money. And I think it was in, must have been thirty, well I know he had classes with ( ) Banks and Lula Stamper that was up there and some these older ones. But then he did drop out for a year, so it was either 23:00the first or after then. Then he went over to Alice Lloyd College and he got kicked out. [Laughter] C.M.: Well.

STURDIVANT: Well later on. Well I don't know if you know that or not, back in fifty-three, I believe, they had Mrs. Lloyd on "This Is Your Life".

C.M.: Yeah, I've seen that before.

STURDIVANT: So one day, after the money started coming in, I said, "You know, you ought to go over there and ask Mrs. Lloyd if she needs some help." And he first, kind of laughed at me and then on Sunday he said, "You know, I think I will go over there and see what's going on." So he went over and Mrs. Lloyd as soon as she saw him coming, she said, "Leroy, I'm so glad you've come. Look at all these buzzards out there." Bankers from Prestonsburg 24:00and Allen. And she said, "Leroy, why didn't you answer my letter?" She wrote for him to come back. That's the way she did. She did a lot of boys that way. She'd kick them out and..

C.M.: Then teach them a lesson or something, yeah.

STURDIVANT: And then she'd call them back. But he took care of all her money. He went and helped to sort it out. We had to go over there. I went with him one time. But he had to have a police escort.

C.M.: With all that money.

STURDIVANT: It think they got about two hundred thousand dollars. I know Ralph Edwards called in from California, to see how much they got. And that was in February, so they had already gotten about two hundred thousand.

C.M.: That's wild. So when you were going to school up over here. You told me about a couple of your teachers, who were some of your other teachers that you had, that you remember? 25:00STURDIVANT: Mr. Still was my Library Science teacher, of course that was only for about six weeks. And Prof Smith.

C.M.: What was he like?

STURDIVANT: Mean.

C.M.: Was he? [Laughter] That's what a bunch of people have said. That he was stern.

STURDIVANT: Yeah he was, well thinking back, I didn't have anything against him. I tell you, I wasn't a good student. I didn't know how to study. You know being in a little, one-room school, well finally we did have two rooms. I don't regret it. It think that's a good experience. But you know, when you go to a bigger school it's hard.

C.M.: Hard.

STURDIVANT: But Prof was okay. Let's see now, Miss 26:00Hadley and Miss Burroughs and Mr. Lovett, did I say him? Miss Hadley, Mr. Lovett, Jim Still and Prof. So I guess that's all. But then when I started in my senior year over here, I was in Miss Cobb's class. I think that was a history class. And Miss Standish for General Science, no I had General Science under Prof I guess that was Chemistry. They had a lot of good teachers back then.

C.M.: Did they?

STURDIVANT: They really did. A lot of them, you know, just came down here 27:00at first to volunteer their services almost.

C.M.: What do you think about that? Especially about the ladies that came from New England.

STURDIVANT: Oh, I think they were great. I really admire them. And I also admire the ones that came to Alice Lloyd. And at Carr Creek, the ones we had over there, before the county took over the school, were good teachers. And our, the woman that was there when I went, she was leaving that year. She was from Pennsylvania, Miss June. And she was a DAR. I'm a DAR.

C.M.: Oh, I didn't know that.

STURDIVANT: Yeah. Just got my certificate about a month ago. So, I had four children and all of them graduated from Hindman High. Well, 28:00three of them, you know, went to the settlement, Mary and Ann and Linda. Then Bronwyn came along and she went up to Knott Central. And then all of them went to college, Mary graduated, Ann's got all kinds of hours, but she never did graduate. And Linda went one year to the University of Kentucky, and she said didn't want to do anything but get married and raise a family.

C.M.: It just wasn't for her.

STURDIVANT: And then Bronwyn went to Alice Lloyd one summer and she had been working, then she went to vocational school. And then she's worked in Frankfort for over fifteen years and she went to school down there, and she's almost through college now herself.

C.M.: So it sounds like education has always been ....

STURDIVANT: Education was absolutely first in our, our first priority. 29:00And I've always done everything I could to support the settlement. Because I think they've really been the backbone of education here in Knott County.

C.M.: And why do you think they've been the backbone for it?

STURDIVANT: I'm not thinking good today.

C.M.: Why I thought. ..you did a good job I think. [Laughing] I mean I know that's kind of a hard question to answer. I just think it would be interesting.

STURDIVANT: Well, Ann worked over there with them. They used to have a work shift. And they paid thirty-five cents an hour. And I believed in working, too. I didn't believe in being idle. And so Ann, after she graduated from the eighth grade, I sent her up there to work for Miss Waddell, scrubbing floors. Because I thought that was a good lesson 30:00for her. But she lasted, it cost us more to fix her lunch than she made, but still it was a good experience. So, she worked until about August and we let her quit. She was so tired. Well, they provided a lot... We used to go up there and play shuffle board.

BEGINNING OF TAPE 20 A20, DALMA STURDIVANT, SIDE B STURDIVANT: I've had pretty good training.

C.M.: I think so.

STURDIVANT: Raising four children and taking care of my mother and my mother-in-law, and my sister-in-law, and my husband. 31:00C.M.: Yeah, you have had a lot of training. Well, looking back on it now, after you've had so many different experiences, but thinking about your time going to school at Hindman, even though you didn't live on campus, maybe how has that impacted your life? Just that part of it.

STURDIVANT: It was, the whole atmosphere of it was real good. And that's really important, too. And all those girls that stayed on the settlement, I didn't envy them, because they had to wear long cotton socks. [Laughter] And so, well, I just don't think that Hindman would have been, ever been what it is now, if it hadn't been for the settlement. Because it brought education and civilization, 32:00I guess, to Knott County. [Laughing] C.M.: Yeah, well, some other people have talked about that. Because I thought maybe. Or I've asked people, you know, how they felt about the ladies that came in. And you were saying how wonderful they were.

STURDIVANT: Oh, they were.

C.M.: In what ways, do you think they did bring maybe more civilization, not saying that people were barbarians or anything like that. But how do you think that helped?

STURDIVANT: They brought culture. They taught children. I know Alfie Banks, that graduated from up there. She was there from the time she was about the third grade. One of her jobs was to teach the little boys how to hold their eating utensils. Teaching them how to eat. A lot of them didn't have any manners, because there wasn't that much culture. Oh, I don't know just how many good things. 33:00I know every one, my husband, he was really fond of every one of his teachers. And I don't remember just now, who all they were. But he always appreciated it. He really did. And so did my sister-in-law. She went on, Sophie the oldest, that was his oldest sister. She taught school and then she went on to Louisville and took a business course. And was a legal secretary for some judge down there in Jefferson County. And then she came back here after, when she was eighty-four and stayed up at the nursing home until she died. She was ninety...ninety-five, I guess. Miss Cobb used to come see me a whole lot.

C.M.: Did she? What was she like?

STURDIVANT: Yeah. 34:00And I always made tea for her. Ann, my daughter was named Ann. And we told Miss Cobb we named her, and really I did, named her after Miss Cobb. And oh, several, my mother-in-law lived right up there, where Frances lives now. And a lot of the settlement workers came by and, you know, visited with her. And then she went to the Methodist Church and she got acquainted with a lot of them. Most of those teachers did go to the Methodist Church. And I remember one time, I had been to town early in the morning. Miss Shaw had been coming down to see her. And evidently she didn't want to be bothered with Miss Shaw that day. So when she saw her coming, 35:00she went in the back room and got in the closet. [Laughter] So here I come, not knowing that and Miss Shaw was sitting on the porch. And I went in and started talking to her. I sat down with her. We had a little settee out there. And then I think, I didn't know where Ellen was, I really didn't. So then I got up and went in the house, and Ellen started, she was hiding in there. She was afraid I'd bring Miss Shaw in, I guess. And she got strangled on something and started coughing. That's when she got in the closet.

STURDIVANT: I don't know what Miss Shaw did, I believe she worked over there at the, where they made, at the weaving place.

C.M.: Oh, okay.

STURDIVANT: I don't think she was a teacher. 36:00C.M.: Well, you said, you were around Miss Cobb quite a bit. What was she like?

STURDIVANT: She was really jolly. And a lot of fun. She was from Boston. She liked high tea, I guess. [Laughing] I know when she came down to see me, I'd make her tea. But she didn't want any sweetening in it, she had arthritis real bad. I can see why those people came from Boston down here. Because I wouldn't live in Boston if you gave it to me. That cold weather up there. It's terrible weather.

C.M.: That's true, lot of people did have to come down here.

STURDIVANT: Well, you know Mrs. Lloyd came for that reason.

C.M.: Yeah?

STURDIVANT: She had arthritis real bad, rheumatism.

C.M.: That would be hard.

STURDIVANT: She was heading out for a warmer place. I guess they were driving a horse and buggy, so I guess when they got here they were pretty tired. 37:00C.M.: I can imagine.

STURDIVANT: And ( )she stayed.

C.M.: I'm going to--. END OF INTERVIEW