Oral History Interview with John Y. Brown, Jr., June 22, 1998

BEGIN TAPE 3.4 White: We, we may have lost that.

Brown: Okay White: It was what on your part?

Brown: Yeah, that was…I guess it was naivety on my part to think that my private life would be separated from my public life and that wasn’t to be, and I guess I was very independent because I, I ran with a fresh independence that nobody owned me or controlled me, at the same time…I would…you know, go to Vegas, maybe a couple of times a year and I guess be like I would usually be, but…that was embarrassing but I knew that there wasn’t anything illegal about it, and it pretty much had been my practice for most of my life [Chuckling] and…on one way, I guess it, it was rather colorful, but at the same time it, it was something that I guess I should have kept out of the public eye, but it, what it sort of had no legal context to it at all, and I never was worried about that, it was just embarrassing, dealing with your own personal funds and as a part 1:00of your private life, but if I had to do it over, I wouldn’t, I would step aside that.

White: Let’s talk about the area of national politics for a while. We haven’t touched on that at all.

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: Starting with Jimmy Carter, what was your relationship with him, if any, and what did you think of him?

Brown: Well, I….

White: As, as a president.

Brown: …yeah, you know you couldn’t help but liking him as a person, but I felt like he, he really didn’t have the…the experience of management and, and the confidence to be a, a leader, and, as it turned out, he just, he wanted everybody to love him, and he wanted everybody to be sure that they know he is trying to do the honest good thing and that came right after Nixon, which was…a contrast. I feel like our whole…country 2:00the last fifty years has gone in cycles, you know, you go from an older fellow like, grandfather like Eisenhower, to a Kennedy, or you went from a…someone who dropped the atom bomb, in Truman, to someone that’s peaceful like Eisenhower that, that make our country secure, you know, when he said, “I’ll go to Korea,” or you know, he is going to do whatever to protect our people and then you go for a young guy that had never been in, who was colorful to the old, back to the old politics, and then you go from the crooked image of a Nixon administration, to love God and country and people in Jimmy Carter, and then you go to that boredom, you get somebody flamboyant like Reagan and weaving the flag, and, and then you get from the old fellow in his seventies to some young fellow in Clinton, so we go in contrast, and…and 3:00so…well I lost my trend of thoughts, here.

White: I just--I asked you….

Brown: Oh ( )….

White: …how you felt about….

Brown: …Carter, Carter….

White: …Carter.

Brown: …when I first met with Carter, after I was governor, I had known Jimmy, he is a southern governor, and been to his home, and I liked him, and I was trying to work with him, because I was going to be the next governor of Kentucky, and we were successful in setting up…about five of his sinful plants--Synfuel plants with the help of the Carter people, we were very friendly to them. But I remember asking him…in the oval office, before I took office, I said, you know, I asked him a lot of business questions about inflation and about high interest rates and what’s going to happen to the economy, because we were in a recession, and he just said, “I just don’t know,” he looked so (raw?) he was just big handwringer. I thought oh my God, if he doesn’t believe we can pull this thing out…you know, who else is going to. And I think, in looking back, that was his weakness, he just, 4:00he, he did everything for sort of a public perception and public acceptance instead of the hard decisions and I think probably didn’t have the experience of making those hard decisions, just like Bill Clinton didn’t have a lot of experience in picking people, but he’s made a lot of good decisions, because he’s been a real student of government.

White: And, and conversely you appeared to have admired Reagan.

Brown: No, Reagan, I do such….

White: Maybe it was just one, one aspect of Reagan.

Brown: No, it, no, he stole our whole campaign team [Chuckling], if you think about it, I mean that was…the bureaucracy of government and the misapplication of m…way of money spent in government and basically government is not doing the job, is dishonest and we don’t like it. And I had done that basically as my whole campaign theme because I had just….

White: You didn’t take that as a compliment? [Laughter] Brown: I did, yeah.

White: Oh, you did!

Brown: I did, I did take it as a compliment, yeah, and, and 5:00he did run it, you know, ideally as a conservative approach which was mine, but then he goes in there and he doesn’t freeze the colas or freeze the budgets, and that’s where we end up with this, you know, three or four trillion dollars in debt from his administration which I felt was selling out our future, I, you know, he had a lot, he said a lot of right things, he did a lot of good things but he didn’t know how to count and so who knows how and when we will be able to pay off this massive deficit that’s now, you know, interest is what, 20 some odd percent of our, our total budget every year, and I, I would, I admired the way he handled the press, because he is the only, he is the only president to be able to survive the press. They try to kill everybody off, I mean it’s, it’s, it’s their job when they get up there every morning is to kill the president, and he’s one that just ignored them and, you know, get me some prime-time television or I’ll embarrass you, and he kept them at bay. And he always kept a sense of humor about him; he didn’t take himself too seriously.

White: Being a pro-business democrat, if that’s a fair description of you, not an 6:00exclusive description, does that ever raise any democratic eyebrows?

Brown: Probably so….

White: Or did it?

Brown: …probably….

White: …I mean it’s….

Brown: …because I more like a….

White: …There’s then….

Brown: …Republican is… White: …and there’s now.

Brown: …Yeah, I am more like a republican in my conservative thinking, but also I, I, I feel government is inclusive, you don’t, you know, you can’t pick and choose who, who government is going to serve, and you have to serve the needy, and the less fortunate, and the disadvantaged, because they are all part of our society the government was formed…to support and to help build, and I’ve always felt strongly about that, I’m just cheap, mentally if you’re going to spend a dollar, get a dollar’s worth, that’s all.

White: You stumped for some of the democratic gubernatorial candidates in the fall of 1982.

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: What do you remember about any of that?

Brown: Well, I remember going to Nebraska and helping Bob Carey 7:00and I enjoyed that, I was chairman of the democratic governor’s association, and I remember I went with (Chuck and Ned?) who was the chairman of the democratic party, and we hit seven or eight states, and I enjoyed that.

White: Did you--how did you chose which state you were going to go into?

Brown: [Coughs] The National DNC, The National Democratic Party [Coughs] White: Basically ( ) meet. [Pause] White: Just giving the governor, a chance to take a sip.

Brown: Cool me down [Clears throat] White: So, the DNC decided, essentially… Brown: Yeah, when I….

White: …or suggested where you should go.

Brown: Mm-mm ( ).

White: Do you remember anything else besides Carey? What do you remember about Carey?

Brown: Well, he, he is….

White: Or his campaign.

Brown: …a restaurateur and he had one leg, and he had been in the marathon, and he was just an ideal local hero that I thought would make a very effective public servant. In fact, I saw him about two months ago. He was very friendly, [Yawns] he gave me a big hug 8:00and he’s been a very…effective, I think, not a politician, more of a statesman [Clears throat] he made his own money, and he was…a very free-thinking person. Then we went over to Kansas and some guy was running over there that had a tough campaign. I remember going down to Mississippi, and boy what a mean-spirited campaign that was down there [Clears throat], and….

White: What do you remember about that?

Brown: Well, they were accusing him of being a transest…transvestite, hum, of all things, and the poor guy, I mean….

White: This was the democratic candidate?

Brown: …yeah.

White: I don’t remember who that was.

Brown: His name was (Alene?). He ended up winning, boy, but not without, you know, all kinds of controversy and mudslinging, you think our campaigns are tough in Kentucky, but they, that one, when they picked up three transvestites out of [Yawns] Bourbon Street, and 9:00had them come in and campaign, this guy was, I picked him up, I mean he was just, he was just ruthless. But then [Clears throat] went to Tennessee, and…campaigned down there. I don’t know, it was only about a four, five day--went to, about, about six or seven or eight states.

White: Okay. You, you mentioned the democratic governor’s conference. I think you were chairman of that….

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: …in ’82, and of course there was the National Governors Association, and you were on the task force on small business and the Appalachian Regional Commission States’ co-chairman.

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: What, what do you remember about, you know, either group, working with democratic governors specifically working 10:00with other governors, what, do you remember what the, the sort of the big issues among the governors were then?

Brown: Well, it was usually education and I frankly thought those meetings were pretty much a waste of time, but in hindsight I, they probably are worth the time, because they really didn’t have any national clout at that time, they didn’t have any lobbyists up there trying to, you know, get their program supported, or ideas introduced, but I think it was good to get the governors together and share what they’re doing in their respective states, but as far as the influence on a national level, I don’t think it was very effective, except with someone like Clinton who was a governor himself, I felt a, even Reagan was a governor but I don’t think he paid much attention to governors, but, in, in hindsight it was worth, you know, the two or three meetings a year they got together.

White: Do, do the governors have more clout now?

Brown: Well, I….

White: You said they didn’t….

Brown: …think on a national level they do, because over this period of time when they had the governors’ conference, they’ve gotten publicity, and they, you know, found out ways in order to be effective as a combine, where back then they s…it sort of seemed like a social outing, you know, get together and see all the governors and talked about a few 11:00issues, but I, I think they’ve, over a period of time, about like our legislature, you know, they’ve got down to business and accomplished a great deal more.

White: What about the Democratic national convention. You were a delegate; your father was a delegate….

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: …and you gave a speech.

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: Uh, and that was in 1982--that was in, yeah, 1982. What, what do you remember about the, the convention--oh first of all, why were you asked to make a speech?

Brown: Yeah, that’s….

White: Why you?

Brown: Well I, you know, I was, what, the honorary national chairman, or the honorary treasurer of the Democratic party because I raised all that money getting them out of bankruptcy, so I was sort of a inside brother, and…but it was the hardest speech, really rather embarrassing because nobody was listening, and you get up 12:00there and talking louder and all yelling and rooting, and I didn’t feel comfortable with the format at all, because the, that’s not really a place to give a speech, it’s a place to whisper something into the crowd, and…you know, there were only a few speeches they’d stop listening to you, everybody was rumbling and talking and you got to try to talk over them, it was really debilitating.

White: Well now are you, when you make a speech like that, are you trying to talk to the convention, and the, the people that are listening, or, or the television audience which are….

Brown: Well….

White: …not the democratic delegates?

Brown: …the smart thing is we talked to the TV audience, but you know, if you’re there talking to a crowd, I mean you just, the instincts are, you’re talking to those people and why aren’t they listening to you? And so it’s sort of embarrassing to get up and you get all this noise and rumbling, you think you’re talking to some TV where 13:00the TV audience is trying to listen to you and knowing that the people there aren’t listening to you, it was just a, a very difficult format, the toughest I’ve ever, and if I had to do it over, I wouldn’t have spoke[n], if I did, I was, I’d gotten up for two minutes and said, you know, America is a great country and we ought, you know, to keep it going.

White: How about your role as delegate? What were you called upon to do? Obviously….

Brown: Well and I was just chairman of our delegation, and it wasn’t anything…you know, other than just perfunctory role of counting the votes and picking out a nominee and voting for him.

White: Okay. Is there anybody on the national scene that you particularly admired, that stood out…while you were governor?

Brown: Boy that’s a hard, that’s a, that’s a question 14:00that mystifies me because there really hasn’t been.

White: Okay.

Brown: And…I think the reason for that is that my attitude toward politics is totally different than others because for most people in politics it was a career and every step was a career building or a career wreaking decision, where mine was a passion to clean it up, correct it, change it, modernize it, be a visionary, be controversial, and I was very secure because this wasn’t a career for me, and so I didn’t see very many people, if any, that making the kind of courageous decisions that needed to be made at the national level and you know, most everything was still political, and…you know, (Bather Bowl?) here about eight or night years ago they changed the tax code, I never thought you could get something that complicated that affected so many special interest groups…passed, 15:00but they did and…that, the, you know, congress I, I’ve just felt like they’re sort of a defense mechanism for us to not do anything drastic that’s going to hurt our country, and I don’t feel like they have a great deal of influence.

White: Now, you’re speaking in the present tense now?

Brown: Yeah.

White: Or the past tense?

Brown: Hu-u-h, both.

White: Because I was going to ask you if it’s gotten better or worse.

Brown: Probably better, I think they’re more informed [clears throat], better educated, better qualified, we have better candidates running for office, and that, but you know, when you ask for a leader I just think in congress you’re not allowed to lead, you know, you really only are allowed to fit in, and you know, if you go back to Everett Dirksen or maybe Alben Barkley or, you know, we’ve had very few really outstanding leaders in the house and senate…and 16:00at the state government level, I think there was some qualified talented people but they were more like, you know, the former president of Jaycees, you know, they were more sort of PR oriented and but well intended, I, I, I respected all my, all my counterparts.

White: The administration tried to get a constitutional amendment passed to, to permit the governor to succeed himself.

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: And I’m wondering how that developed and…whether you should’ve removed yourself from the amendments applicability and….

Brown: I should have.

White: …hindsight, hindsight.

Brown: Kentucky was oh so political but I was very popular at the time and I thought well, gee, you know, if I, if, we, we’re going to continue to do a good job I’m really liking this, I could…I could use another four years, there wasn’t anything that was a, a major interest of mine other than four years off is a short period of time and the only reason we had that--we were one of three states in the country that had a four-year limitation--is that we never did trust our governor and we want to be sure in four years we can throw him out, instead of him building some 17:00dynasty and, and so…but I, I tactically tried to ( ) because all people who run for governor the next time, they are all against it, because they want to run their own campaigns and not against a succeeding governor, so it was a hard issue to pass and I don’t think it could pass, unless you took yourself out of the equation, like Brereton Jones did, in order to get the bill passed.

White: I wanted to ask you a question about, about your health problems, you, you had by-pass surgery?

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: You had hip replacements.

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: How, how do you think that…fact affected your performance as governor in any way?

Brown: No, I really don’t because I, I feel in looking back, I accomplished everything that I really wanted to other than I wished I’d have more information on education, as to what to do with it, because, you know, it was like, 18:00you know, here we are, and here is where we’ve been, but there wasn’t any of the new Carnegie study or the other studies been used since to know what kind of major decisions to make in education. But I was very satisfied with my ability to pick people and to motivate and supervise, and, and I had so many more accomplishments that I didn’t even have enough time for…but I don’t think that health really interfered, and the fact that I’m still living nineteen years later after going through whatever, it shows I’ve got, you know, certainly awfully good genes and I’ve always had a high…energy level, but it threw me out for about a month, and…when I was in the hospital.

White: There was a, a short biographical sketch written of you, which summarized approximately 19:00as follows, that, “John Y. Brown ran Kentucky like a business, and sold Kentucky products in the marketplace, and that he was a sound steward of Kentucky resources, but not someone who proposed new programs, such as education or human services.” We’ve touched on some of this, but do you have any response beyond what, to, to that comment?

Brown: Well, that’s like….

White: Is that a fair comment or….

Brown: people….

White: …or not?

Brown: …interested in education, they all say we need to spend more money, we need to pay more, the only thing I thought that at the time was necessary is to make our teachers have respectful wage, but as far as any of the accountability, the checks, and balances, I mean there are (??) more and more in primary and secondary education [clears throat]. None of that research was available, I mean no one really knew how to set up the machinery, and, and the operation for it and it all came during my last year in office, so, I don’t re…I regret 20:00that we couldn’t have done more, but there wasn’t any information by which to make decision, plus you had a superintendent of public instruction elected by the people. That was another conflict, does the governor do this, or does the superintendent of public instruction, and…so, yeah that was a regret, and that’s easy to criticize, but I don’t know what you would have done. You know Ed Pritchard, that sounds like one of his lines, and…you know, he was a, he had a passion for education. But I think until the Carnegie study came with chapter and verse and proof and documented research as to what it means, I, I don’t think we had much of a roadmap to go on, and there weren’t very many other states to much, very progressive either, like, you know, this happened the last twenty-five years.

White: I’m going to put this on pause while we regroup.

Brown: Sure. 21:00[Pause] White: Governor Brown a couple of sessions ago, I got crosswise with the tape which was not operating right, and we had done some talking about the period between Kentucky Fried Chicken and running for governor, and I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that now, we need to go over again since….

Brown: And you want to do that….

White: …since nothing shows.

Brown: …this section or the next session?

White: Well, hang on a minute. [Pause] White: …when we’re going to do this, and we think we will go ahead and do it now. So, Governor Brown, you had started to talk a couple of times ago, about the need for a transition period in your life and doing some re-evaluation, this was after you sold Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Brown: Mm-mm.

White: So, if you could kind of go over what happened in those…years between the time you sold Kentucky Fried Chicken, and the time you decided to run for governor.

Brown: Well when I got out of…Kentucky Fried, my head was about, it felt like it was about four-foot thick, because I’d run in so many things that I didn’t know the answers to, and had gotten involved in all that corporate kind of manipulation, and which served me later in life, because I, I learned an awful lot about dealing with people and how it’s self-serving 22:00to everybody in improve their own positions instead of what’s good for the company, but I was really emotionally drained and I took…some time off and then I ended up you know, getting involved politically with, putting three telethons on, which took quite a bit of time, and…I just sort of piddled in business, I really wasn’t inspired, didn’t want to really work at it day by day, or do any kind of hands-on management, and…this was a, a good rest period for me, and there was a change in my life, Ellie and I got a divorce…after, you know, we got involved in the pro basketball, and we were partners in that and she ran it, and which I’ve very good relationship, very friendly…relationship, but it was fairly inactive and once 23:00I got a divorce I went to Florida not knowing where to go, what to do, but I’m not a loner, so I bought a little private yacht club down there, just to have some friendly faces around and somebody to cook for me.

White: You bought a what?

Brown: A private club called the Fort rel…Lauderdale, oh what the heck was it, it was like a yacht club and I didn’t know where to go other than Florida, I was sort of…I guess wanted my privacy, but not ( ) here I had three children, I had teenage kids, and so I just went to Florida for a sort of a…a change in scenery and ended up, you know, just fooling around with basketball, I did end up with the Boston Celtics and the Old Kentucky Colonels, but that wasn’t any kind of fulltime job, and invested in several businesses, some of them…did fine, 24:00others not so fine, but I really wasn’t a serious businessman at the time.

White: What were some of those?

Brown: Well, I had ‘Molly’s Trolley’ and I had…you know I made money off Lums but I sold it to a European company that ended up not making it with it, but I really wasn’t serious, I just, I tried a few things but nothing that was…attention getter on my part, and I guess that’s a, a change of life of…maybe doing everything and all of the sudden doing nothing, and breaking the, the code, the mold of doing nothing to doing something, and it’s rather ironic I was…sort of looking at my life at that time and thinking, gee I’ve become a recluse! And I used to like to be with people, laughing and I used to, you know, be friendly, but I just didn’t really at that point have any need or desire to go travel or get around and so I made myself go to California 25:00and thinking I’d, there is a lot of people there and it is more exciting lifestyle and, and also I sort of went looking for a wife, frankly, and I, and two weeks later I ran into Phyllis and ended up getting married to her shortly thereafter, and she was a great partner in politics and government, you know, and her life had been in, in, in the public arena, mine sort of semi, but we made an attractive team, and I think we both really thoroughly enjoyed it, but that’s sort of was a wakeup call and I’ve had several since then, you know, after the governorship, I mean if it was you, what do you do, you know, what’s a, you know, an over-the-hill governor, a past governor, what’s he’s going to do next? And fortunately, I had my business…experience and plus I had my own confidence of what I could do, and that’s…I got back in and created three companies from nothing. They were just ideas that….

White: This is since you were governor.

Brown: Yeah, 26:00 mm-mm.

White: And they were Kenny Rogers Roasters?

Brown: Mm-mm, which we build three hundred stores before I sold out two years ago, and Roadhouse Grill that is a public company today, it’s about an eighty-million-dollar public company. We started and built it, and I started a company called ‘Miami Subs,’ that’s a Florida company with about two hundred stores and we started basically from scratch, and….

White: How--now how did, how did Kenny Rogers Roasters get started?

Brown: I met first… White: Did you run into Kenny Rogers?

Brown: No, I picked him out, thought he’d be a good spokesman image and I went to talk to him about it and, and we went in as pretty much partners, I had 75 percent and he had 25 percent.

White: And what about ‘Roadhouse Grill’ and ‘Miami Subs,’ how did they get started?

Brown: ‘Roadhouse Grill’ was created by a young man, David (Tool?) that created ‘Logan’s Roadhouse Grill,’ right here on Broadway, that’s the number one restaurant in Lexington, and they squeezed him out of a 10 percent interest in that company, 27:00and so he was unhappy that they hadn’t honored their word with him, and I said, “well, find out legally if you can go with me, I’ll go to Florida and build some stores with you.” So, I put up the money and he built them, and ran them.

White: You had known him.

Brown: I just met him, and, but now we are partners back again, we’re, we are developing some other ideas.

White: And what about which you are not ready to talk about, or….

Brown: Well, it’s….

White: …developing ideas?

Brown: …it’s, it’s in the restaurant field, and David is the operator and I’m sort of the visionary and so together we’re both building a chain of something and we’ve been, been there once and we have a sport bar idea that’s family oriented and we’re going to call it ‘Screwy Louie’s,’ which is after a house…a houseman that I had named Louie ( ) of Lexington, and he liked to call himself Screwy Louie, and he was a character, and so…we’re building several of those, plus we’ve got some other opportunities we’re looking at, 28:00but we’ve, you know, we got a perfect partnership and I’m sure we will be successful in building something.

White: And what about ‘Miami Subs?’ Brown: I sold that out, and I made several million dollars off of that, and as I did Lums and those I, I did, each of these ventures, I was very lucky, but lucky to the extent that I am a creator and I don’t want to stay there and run it, and at this point, other than KFC, I don’t want to go public, I don’t want the responsibility of using public money and then having to be sure I get a good return, I’ll leave that to somebody else.

White: Is, is….

Brown: But I was more successful monetarily after ‘Kentucky Fried Chicken’ than I was before, which is rather interesting.

White: Is there a reason for that?

Brown: Experience, and…but I think, you know, the boldness to try things. Most people aren’t willing to try anything ( ) failed.

White: Let me put this on pause. [Pause] White: And we just had a short interruption. 29:00Let’s see where….

Brown: [Shouting] (Myra?) White: Let’s pause again. [Pause] White: Were, were you implying that you were more willing to take risks after the KFC days?

Brown: Well, I….

White: In this, in this ( )….

Brown: …I think I learned a lot….

White: …more recent period….

Brown: …and you, yeah, as I’ve mentioned, the famous quote, you get your learning from your burning. I learned so much what, what, not, what not to do plus I had some natural abilities in what I was really good in, and what selling, negotiating, packaging deals, and…I had my self-confidence and even alone I could go out and compete against these big companies because I felt like I had learned more in the last three years than they did, and, and who’d dare at fifty-eight years old would go to Florida and s…start three restaurant companies, all three of which, at the time that I was there, were fairly successful and pretty much national from scratch, and so, 30:00but I, I learned a lot and you remember your mistakes and you never make them again, and, and so my life has been full of involvements until where I’ve had to stumble whether it’s health problems, or whether it’s career directions, I’ve had to stumble before I could climb and that’s true, I think, for all entrepreneurs. You show me an entrepreneur that hasn’t failed as many times as he succeeded, and I’ll say he is not telling the whole story. But I was really ( ) my failings, that’s all just part of the process and then not thinking, and not all so much into self and security to not stand behind somebody it my work.

White: And yet some entrepreneurs never quite find the magic formula, or whatever it is….

Brown: Yeah, a lot of it has been a career….

White: …and what’s the difference?

Brown: Yeah. 31:00Well, luck, timing, maybe they didn’t have enough of the package to make it, you know, you have to have a lot of different ingredients to make it anything, you know, you have to know how to handle people, you know how to have, know how to sell something, and, and you have to know, have a vision as to whether or not it fits or if it does fit, or when to pull back, and it’s like playing poker, you know, you got to know when to hold them and when to fold them, and…there is a lot to business, but business is the part I like best about it is the creative and the competitive part. [Pause] Brown: But I think the thing that I’m probably most proud of, and I guess I try to share with young people, is I’ve done…been fortunate to do things that people think only happen once in a lifetime, whether it’s to own the Boston Celtics, or whether it’s being governor of Kentucky, or whether it’s owning the fastest growing company in the United States and, and, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken, or whether it’s putting four telethons on with Hollywood and the entertainment world from scratch and produces them for twenty hours on primetime television, 32:00or starting these new companies, you know, in the modern day of nineties where I came out of the sixties, and being able to compete, and often times succeed, because you know, my portfolio is just full of interesting, exciting ventures that have been in the big arena. Well I guess what I have to try to remind young people, that everybody in the big arena are just people just like we are that had to start somewhere and…that…you know, if you set your goals high enough and, I think what I, what, what’s helped me in recent years is my credibility, because I couldn’t have run for governor had I not had good credibility in my own business career, and, and secondly the self-confidence to do this or don’t do that, and I’ve never had any major mistakes in business, but I’ve had small ones because you measure your down side to your upside, but I’ve had a very interesting career 33:00and I probably got one left in me, I’m not sure what that is, and I am sixty-four, and Armand Hammer is sort of my hero, he started his business career at fifty-eight and built a multi, multibillion dollar company, so, I’m sort of looking, I’ve found a, a, another life in a very wonderful woman and I look forward, and my kids, we have….

White: And her name is?

Brown: ...Father’s Day yesterday--her name is Jill Roach. We will be married here the next few weeks or months, and…I’m enjoying being back in Lexington, which I left but is always home, I want to be buried here and I like coming out and seeing the old druggist I hadn’t seen for forty years, or the guy in the service station, and…and people treat me wonderful here, anytime you’re a former governor they treat you with a great deal of, I guess respect, and, and you know, even though I didn’t need that when I left after, I don’t know if a governor ever left his home state after he was governor, but I needed to go make a living and I’ve enjoyed being back, and for the first time, Ethel, I don’t have 34:00to chase anywhere, I’ve spent my whole life chasing the next goal or the next object, or the next escape, and for the first time in my life, sixty-four, I’m who I--a…who I want to be, where I want to be, doing what I only want to do, which is nothing right now, other than being a parent and getting my personal life and looking at various businesses and sort of getting around and meeting some old friends, like, in the last few weeks, I’m, we had a little poker game here last night, I hadn’t done that since college, and they’re all local businessmen here and it’s, it’s really fun and…I’ve, you know, getting out in the community and…and really enjoying home, it’s got some, some real purpose and most of my purpose in my life had been goal oriented, where now, you know, my purpose is just settled in to, to do the 35:00sort of simple things in life and…and I’m really enjoying them….

White: But, but you….

Brown: And I am fulfilled, I’m, I think I’m fulfilled.

White: But you did say you were looking around at other ventures….

Brown: Mm-mm, yes.

White: …at the same time. Do you see yourself remaining a businessman? Do you ever see yourself getting back in the public life?

Brown: No, because governor is the only position I’m really qualified for, because I am an independent and entrepreneurial type, and I wouldn’t fit in the senate or some role like that. I might do something in public service, such as starting an entrepreneurial school, but you know, business is the best foundation and I’ve got a good ten years to give to business, but the ironic thing is ever since I was, got out of college, you know, I mean was trying to be a lawyer, I moved to Louisville, then Kentucky Fried Chicken, I’m running here, and waiting can’t, wait until next year, the year after and then move to Nashville, I can’t wait to move back and, and…and then, you know, I get separated and move to Florida, and my life 36:00has always been next year, next year, next year, and then run for governor, and boy it’d be two more years, three more years, and, and then Phyllis moves to New York and I go to Florida and I won’t be in Florida long and I’m back, I’m finally where I want to be, and I don’t have to run anymore, but a lot of people run their whole life and never know for sure why they’re going to where they’re going, and I think my father is a go…a good example, you know, he just was always on the run, we, we certainly call that, in some of our thinking, a geographical escape, and I’ve finally escaped to where I want to be, and I’m not as happy as I think I will be once I get remarried and sort of get into a routine, with something I enjoy doing, but I’m sure it will be there.

White: Have you ever had any self-doubts?

Brown: Oh yeah, yeah, I grew up with self-doubts, I, I grew up ( ) because of my dad, you know, but also, grew up to want to compete and you know, once you have so many failures, you don’t care about it anymore. I mean, you know, when my dad ran thirty-one times and I suffered through all his defeats and he was a brilliant lawyer, the best in Kentucky, and…you know, 37:00he always thought well the best man win, well it’s not, it’s a selling game, and so I looked at politics as different, and yeah I had a lot of self-doubt, but I had success at an early age which gave me a lot of confidence and--thank you. And I didn’t really, I didn’t really get my confidence until I was ready to run for governor where I had been burned enough with people and understanding bure…bure…bureaucrats, I learned that in KFC, I brought in all these experts who didn’t know diddly, and weren’t doing anything because they were, if they did some they might have made a mistake and get fired so they did nothing, and they had committee on committee to how to take a long time to make decisions [Chuckling] so they won’t have to make one might, might fail, but…no, I, I treasure that experience, and now I’m dealing with children, it’s just so easy to have been through one family and deal with the other, and Lincoln and Pamela the last two years have been a, 38:00a missing link in my life over the last ten years, I really fully enjoy it, and I feel like I’ve done a good job with them, but, as a father you learn, you know, you’re their boundaries, and you’re their…s…spiritual, emotional, and goal oriented influence, and…teenagers are hard to handle. My hat’s off to the, to the mothers of this world, because they want to be controlled and yet they’ll put up every confrontation not to be controlled, and, and I’ve had--you know, Lincoln is a fine young man and, and we, we are, he was at the age where he would debate you down, you never won an argument. So I just wrote him a three-page letter and just documented prior three or four months and he’d become sort of a free agent, and boy it’s straighten him up and not that he did anything bad, but I just sort of lost control of him and I couldn’t debate with him, so I just wrote him a letter and at the end of it I said, “you know Lincoln, we all love you, 39:00and the only thing is if you don’t succeed as you sort of represented you can, then we’ll just figure, we will all think what a missed opportunity,” and I said, “you’re a winner, start acting like one.” Brown: And, and he started going to church two or three days a week, and he went out and worked out every day, and he just got into (Horton’s?) he was all A student, he went out for football, but these kids have to have goals, you know, idle time is the devil’s workshop, and there is just too much out there to get in trouble with and I am a good example of that, you know, I’ve sort of walked on the edge all my life, but when it gets down to the end of the day, you want to do good, you want to do right, because right is better and it’s more fulfilling, it’s more productive, and it’s more lo…long lasting and that’s one thing that I’ve always tried to keep is my self-respect and my reputation, and, because when you lose that, you know, you’re really starting (to operate in a vacuum?). And so I felt like I’ve kept my reputation, I’ve 40:00got more experience than I’ve ever had and, besides enjoying my children, and my new wife, I feel like there will be one big challenge that I’ll have, which will maybe make my fifth career and, that ought to do it for me but I, I’m thinking about that time to where I can enjoy the investments of time and the experiences of the past, I’m hoping I’ll have a happier and equally productive life the rest of the way in.

White: I was going to ask you if you had any final comment, but perhaps that was it.

Brown: Yeah.

White: Is there any some….

Brown: Well, I….

White: …thing up you want to do either as governor or as just a human being?

Brown: Well, the, the, my, when they had that testimonial dinner for me two years ago, it was the most beautiful evening in my life and it was like, you know, 41:00this is your life, how wonderful you are, and everybody gets up and gives a testimony, and to see all my cabinet secretaries who, you know, at least a dozen of them had gone out and built major companies, and, and all those people were so special and we were special, we knew we were special, and we’ll never have another administration like that ever that will be as honest and that will be as productive, and that will be as, as…sort of revolutionary in, in the fact that we were there and made change, we weren’t there just to, you know, just to carry the load, we were there to, to really try it and improve, eliminate all the politics and we really did it. I mean, there wasn’t one political move in our four years by anybody and those four years will always stand out as my most meaningful, because I grew up with a passion to do something that my father tried to do for thirty, forty, fifty years, and I did it, I mean it really worked, and everyone that was there, from W. T. Young, who is probably the most successful businessman in the state, he’ll tell you his most meaningful years, are four years of working for state government and because of the people are appreciative and they really look up to you and they need your help, and at least we were independent 42:00enough to try to do the right thing in every stand, so, my life’s pretty fulfilled and that, I think that testimonial dinner really sort of said, John Brown, you’ve graduated, you know, you have been accepted and you know, I was thirty-eight before I stopped worrying about what my mother and father thought about me, you know, you’re always tried to please your parents and it, it’s a, but I, I feel like I’ve really accomplished what I wanted to in life and looking back you thought well gee you could have done more in politics and I really didn’t want to, I, I think KFC was my big run and I was sort of burned out when I got through, but I learned so much that the next time it was so much easier, but, you know, I, I’ve had a life that I probably haven’t stopped to smell the roses or enjoyed the day.

Brown: I’ve enjoyed the moments and sort of impulsively but now I think those enjoyments are more…will be more deeply and, and, and 43:00not so rushed, you know, I, I have a wonderful relationship with my five kids and looking back I’d like to have many more private time, but at the same time, I gave them love, and I think I gave them inspiration or guidance, as have their mothers, and that’s why I think I’m blessed with five great kids, and, it wouldn’t be too far out of the question maybe have one or two more because I love them [Laughing] I have seven grand-kids home yesterday, father’s day, we went out to…to Shakertown but I grew up…you know, wanting to make a difference and…and I have and I’m real proud of it, I’m real proud of the, probably more inwardly, than what most people really know outwardly, because we didn’t try to publicize our administration and I didn’t try to manipulate the press because I really didn’t have a lot of respect for the press, I mean they’re, they’re young guys trying to do a job, nothing against them personally, but the old theory of why they’re there to cover you and it’s got nothing to do with substance, and the things you want to accomplish but more about 44:00the news of the day, and that was why I was disappointed, that was a fact of life, but I think anybody that was a part of our administration will say that, that was really, there was nothing average about that, that, that was greatness from top to bottom, because when you look at the series of accomplishments, they were all rather significant and we couldn’t have done it without independence, and without the quality of people that came to state government, so, and looking back I think we did all we could in those four years, I’m not sure I could have accomplished a whole lot more the next four, other than, you know, at that point of my career I would have liked to serve more, because I really had nothing left in my career except maybe public service and, in looking back, I’d probably made it a career, instead of a stop gap, but then again I might not have been able to be successful had I not have my business success, so I really can’t look back very many regrets, other than this part, I think I can benefit from anything I’ve learned before and still have, you know, I mean, if I think I’m you know, 45:00I’m very m…much of an optimist I’ve had all these different operations but my, I’ve got just recently a lot of life insurance, so somebody thinks I’m healthy. And I do think positive thinking and staying busy are the keys to…to live a long life, and I started that Brown-Sanders Center on Aging I’m very proud of and… White: The what?

Brown: The Brown-Sanders Center on Aging, I’m very proud of and that’s been the….

White: Now, when, when did you start that?

Brown: I started that, and I donated the money, a million dollars and matched the state’s fund in 1972 and it’s turned out to be really one of the pioneering programs in the country on aging and Alzheimer’s and I’m very proud of that, and built the YMCA in Louisville, which I am very proud of, 46:00you know, I didn’t want to give charity to everything but I’ve had some major projects I’m really proud of, the Pamela Brown Auditorium in Louisville, in honor of my sister, and, I’m interested in the boys and girls club which is a wonderful program for local disadvantaged youth and, so, you know I, I think it’s all in the mind and I have been able to stay pretty positive about my next goals, because today and yesterday really doesn’t matter, today matters, but yesterday doesn’t, it’s what you’re going to do from here on in, so I’m still pretty optimistic about…what I have to look forward to.

White: Governor Brown, thank you so much, I’ve enjoyed it.

Brown: Thank you, Ethel, you’re, you’re really nice and you seemed interested, and I appreciate your, your interest.

White: I am interested.

Brown: Good.

White: Thanks.

END OF INTERVIEW