Jesse Grider 00:09
Evidently, he had turned to--to come back off the peak of the hill, which he
shouldn't have been up there to start with. He was just a silhouette sitting up there, waiting for something to happen. And we got him back and got him--I think we may have covered that earlier. I don't know where we were but--.Ethel White 00:29
--Got him to the hospital.
Jesse Grider 00:30
--We got on the helicopter and got him to the hospital and so forth. The last I
heard; he was still paralyzed. Then that really, and a lot of funny stuff, you know, the Indians would holler the--. We were in shouting distance of each other, our lines, and they would holler while we were out there, that some Indian was home with their wife. And, you know, some of our people would holler back. Pocahontas was a whore, and [laughs] Geronimo was a fag. And, I mean, it's just stuff like this, it went on all the time. And a lot of funny stuff that happened, I mean, it wasn't all--.Ethel White 01:11
You mean, when they were talking like this, it was all in good fun?
Jesse Grider 01:14
Well, it was just--.
Ethel White 01:15
Some wasn't and some wasn't.
Jesse Grider 01:17
Yeah, I mean, it was just their--of you know, I mean, I had white people doing
me the same way in the Civil Rights Movement. You know, you're down here protecting these negroes, and there's probably one sleeping with your wife at home. And, I mean, that's just the way that things are. And some of the funny things, and you had some people there that, I never will forget one fellow, not a Marshall, and he was the photographer. And what he was doing with the rifle, [chuckles] I don't know, but he--he was not very good with it, and shouldn't even had one, but he was standing in a PC, a personnel carrier in the military is something like a tank. You can stand up in the center as a whole, and you can mount a machine gun or whatever up there. But he was standing up, and he decided he was going to fire some shots, and he had a rifle, and it had a telescope side on it. So, he zeroed in on the--on this bunker. And [in] a few minutes, he jumped down in the end of that thing. And so, he called me up, and he's [saying], "every time I saw, him I'm gonna start shooting," says, "they've got me zeroed in, so we gotta move this thing." And I said, "what are you talking about?" He's [saying], "well, every time I stand up there to shoot," says, "they start shooting back at me." And said, "these bullets, they've got me zeroed in." Says, "we need to move this PC."Jesse Grider 02:44
So, I got up on the front. I said, "well, where are they hitting?" He said, "all
over the front of this thing." Well, I got up on the PC [chuckles] and looked, and what it was, the telescope side is about two inches above the barrel and the rifle. So, when he was laying it down to shoot, the barrel was two inches below, he was hitting the front of the personnel carrier [chuckles]. And you could tell by the mark on the front of the personnel, the bullets were going out, they were not coming in. So [laughs] anyway, when I told--explained to him, what I was going one why, he realized he was not zero hit, and he just flat forgot the scope that was--the barrel was two inches or so below the scope.Jesse Grider 03:25
And a lot of things like that. You know, we--I asked [Richard] Wilson, the chief
about--there were a lot of deer, and some of the fellows was [were] wanting a deer to cook. And so, I asked the chief of the tribe, and I said, "what do you do about--who you see about getting permission to hunt?" And he said, "me". And I said, "well, some of my people are wanting a deer, they don't want to just shoot deer, but they're--a lot of them are country people. And they love the deer meat, the venison." And he says, "Well, sure, let them go on." And I said, "well, do I have to have a license or anything." And he says, "no, as long as I tell you do it, you can do it." And so, I--.Ethel White 04:17
So, this was Wilson.
Jesse Grider 04:18
This was Wilson, the chief of the tribe. And so evidently, he---whatever he
said, was the way it was. I mean, they didn't have any particular laws, I guess [chuckles], or whatever he wanted to give permission to do, he'd do. And I guess that's why they leased their land to the ranchers. And they, you know, and he had complete control, along with the tribe and the tribe council, would go along with whatever he wanted. And whether they were, whether they--the Civil Rights Movement, felt like he had gotten his strong-arm fellas on the council. And so, he had complete control of the entire reservation. So anyway, then some of the guys would kill a deer, and they cooked it out in--the fields, just like maneuvers in the military or something.Jesse Grider 05:18
And this went on for--I don't know for this--firing, and then we--people coming
in, and rumors were flying out of there that what became of some of the weapons they had. An AK-47, which is a Russian-made weapon, and they were supposed to have those. We'd catch a lot of people going in trying to get supplies into them. I heard later, after the thing had settled, that they had one particular route that they could come go as they wanted to [laughs], and that we [are] never good [to] stop them.Ethel White 05:58
I mean, you didn't know where it?
Jesse Grider 05:59
No, not until after it was over, but you'd have to see this area to realize. I
mean, it was just an awful lot of rough terrain, and for the--[George A.] Custer that got his D-Day there. So--and I, you know, we'd sit around and joke and I---.Ethel White 06:19
But it was open. You said it was rough terrain, but it was open.
Jesse Grider 06:22
Well---
Ethel White 06:22
--Or were--.
Jesse Grider 06:23
Looking down into--Wounded Knee was in a valley. Okay, so you had all of these
hills and gullies and so forth going in--to this thing. And I mean, you're talking about a lot of miles all the way around so.Ethel White 06:39
So, if you knew the area, you could be rather secretive.
Jesse Grider 06:43
Yeah, I mean, someone there would know, you know, would know every gulley, and
then it would be impossible for us to hold this around every foot of the thing. And so, what we did, we would patrol, but it would be like sitting out of a--patrol an army. You know, and you can sneak in behind enemy lines and get back out, if you know what you're doing. But anyway, these there was [were] people that got in and out and that we didn't, but we did catch an awful lot of them and stop them, and we'd take different stuff off of them. Never any weapons that could amount to anything, mostly supplies, I think. So anyway, some--I don't remember, a couple of months this went on and--and they finally agreed that they would leave, if they could leave peacefully. Well, I don't think there was ever any agreement they wouldn't prosecute. Because I think there was some indictments and trials later. I don't remember who, and I think [Dennis] Banks may have been. And then, the aftereffects of that, I think there have been some federal law enforcement killed out there, and like the FBI agent was killed after that. in that area.Ethel White 08:13
You mean after the agreement to leave or--.
Jesse Grider 08:15
No, this is sometime later, a year or so later.
Jesse Grider 08:18
So, there's always been that. So anyway, they agreed to leave Wounded Knee and
that we were to let them, but we-- they worked it out that they could only come out one way, which was through RB [roadblock] one, and that they would not be arrested at that time. So, they did, and the next day, then or that---I don't remember what time they came out of there. Then, we were ordered to go into Wounded Knee and secure the place. We were a little bit concerned about booby traps, and you know, whether they had any hand grenades or dynamite or whatever. But we went in very cautioning, but we went in as a--sort of like a military movement, and we walked in from different areas and into it. There were houses that people--some people were still living in, and we immediately searched their house and questioned them as to why they were there. And they were people that most of them, we did find a few that didn't belong, that did not come out when the main body did. They had just totally wrecked practically everything down their--the trading post and--Ethel White 08:18
Oh, a year.
Ethel White 09:55
The takeover group had.
09:56
Yeah, I mean, it just, it was awful. We went to the church; they had their
American Indian Movement flag on the church. And so, we immediately---my group and the director of the Marshall Service came in. We immediately got that flag down off of the church and presented it to the director of the Marshal Service. There was [were] an awful lot of bullet holes--where it hit the church. Well, they had dug trenches in the church, and so, they had taken the floor out, and then they were below ground. So, if you were--you were getting fired from the church, which we did get an awful lot of heavy fire from there. Well, if you fired back into it, you were not, I mean, they were down below ground, so they knew what they were doing, and they had some pretty good bonkers.Jesse Grider 10:05
You--I don't know---just, and we came in, and of course, we took our PCs and
destroyed their bunkers and, secured the place. And we had a lot of rental cars that we had rented from, I don't know, Hertz or Avis, or wherever we could get them. We had an awful lot of damage to those. The ranchers--.Jesse Grider 11:38
To the marshal's rental cars. They--a lot of the vehicles that the Indians
mostly had--they didn't have very nice vehicles anyway, but those that were there, a lot of them were just burned or totally destroyed that maybe belonged to some of the people that were friendly to Wilson and so forth. A lot of the houses were just totally destroyed. The ranchers had lost an awful lot of cattle, and there were some buildings and houses burned. Well, I mean, it was just a--like a war zones, sort of. There's been an awful lot of suits, I think, files since then. I don't know, I didn't keep up with it, so I really don't know. I have a map of Wounded Knee or Pine Ridge Reservation that most of us signed there, and like I say, I kept it, but---all the marshals that were--that were there didn't sign it, but the majority of the main group had signed it. And I don't know, we were there maybe a week or so after that, and then started breaking down to it--.Ethel White 11:38
--To the marshal's rental cars.
Ethel White 13:06
You mean--in the town.
Jesse Grider 13:07
In the town, breaking down to head back home.
Ethel White 13:15
As far as you know, were there just the two, I mean, at the time, or there [was]
just the one Indian killed and the one marshal badly wounded? [clears throat]Jesse Grider 13:26
Yeah, I mean as far as firearms--.
Ethel White 13:29
--Was the extent of the--.
Jesse Grider 13:29
--Are concerned, yeah. I mean, there were other--.
Ethel White 13:31
--Casualties--.
Jesse Grider 13:31
--People injured that had nothing to do with the firearm, but just being there,
you know, you're going to have accidents. And I don't know what the situation, I know Wilson now, whether he's still living or not, I don't know, but I know he is no longer the chief. I've forgotten--I called out there a couple of years ago. I can't remember for what, but I was--called for the chief--of the tribe and I've forgotten his name. I think I've got it written down in some junk--since I've retired, I just boxed all this stuff up and hadn't gone through it. You hadn't heard that much out of it. I mean, you still hear out of Banks every once in a while. Because he's, I think where they had dug some graves here in Kentucky. He was here a while back, down in in Western Kentucky, where there was an Indian cemetery or something. I think he came in here for that.Ethel White 14:35
Did you talk to Banks yourself?
Jesse Grider 14:37
I---.
Ethel White 14:37
--At Wounded Knee?
Jesse Grider 14:37
--I didn't really talk to him. I mean, I knew him and speak to him. I knew he
was, but I as far as sitting there and talking to him, no. There was Banks, and then there was, I don't know, a Meeks or Means---Means, I believe.Ethel White 14:54
Yeah. And do you know if Wilson is still alive?
Jesse Grider 15:00
I don't know.
Ethel White 15:00
--And not the chief.
Jesse Grider 15:01
I don't know.
Ethel White 15:01
You don't know whether he's not the chief because he died--.
Jesse Grider 15:03
I know he isn't the chief, but I don't know whether he's died or. And I--this,
now whether any of this is true or not, I never checked it out, but that he had served sometime in the penitentiary that I understand, and maybe for rape. I know he did have a--I know he drinked [drank] a lot. And I don't know why it is, and I think it's true that, when the Indians drank, they---they become a different person. I was in the army with a Sioux Indian, and I cannot remember his name, but I know he would get a few drinks and he'd be pretty wild. You could see it out there, in some Indians. Some of them in New Mexico and Albuquerque, and up in that area, there's an awful lot of alcoholic Indians. And of course, they've gotten [in] such a bad shape that they're not any danger to anyone, and they're just older and alcoholics and they're just laying around drunk all over the place. And I've forgotten the little town we spent the night in, and about the only thing you would see would be an awful lot of--awful lot of Indians, but you're getting into a different tribe there. I guess you're getting into what, the Navajo or what--I don't know. I don't know that much about Indians.Ethel White 16:41
Do you know, I mean, we can check this in the history books [chuckles], but do
you know anything about the outcome, or at least the immediate outcome? I mean, did these--did the--the group that took over Wounded Knee, achieve any of their aims?Jesse Grider 17:00
Well, I don't know. I presume they have, I--.
Ethel White 17:05
--But you didn't--.
Jesse Grider 17:06
--But I don't---.
Ethel White 17:06
--Hear anything at the time.
Jesse Grider 17:07
No, I didn't follow--I didn't follow it. It was just sort of like another job,
you know. I mean, you just moved from that into something else, and you didn't really have time to follow it and see and you know, so much of the stuff that you just took for granted that you didn't realize that. Someday you look back at it as history and other--like the--the trial, I believe, in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And the priest brothers, what were with their names?Ethel White 17:45
[Phillip] Berrigan?
Jesse Grider 17:45
Yeah, see, they were defendants in a trial up there. They---I had to go up
there, they'd cuffed---a lot of their followers had cuffed themselves together and surrounded the federal building. And so, we went prepared with big wire cutters and stuff [chuckles] for them to cut their cuffs. I mean, a lot of that stuff, you just forget. You just, I don't know--it was a lot of--a lot of work and a lot of movement. And I'm sure that I was in a lot of towns that I'd even forgotten about during the Civil Rights Movement, --I just couldn't keep up with them. The Wounded Knee thing after we left there why, I don't recall what we got into next, but I'm sure it was something that you know, all of a sudden, that was history. You didn't have time to follow through. I know there was [were] a lot of lawsuits filed. The ranchers suing the government, and I guess the people in Wounded Knee suing the BIA [Bureau of Indiana Affairs] because they didn't protect them or, I don't know.Ethel White 18:59
But your job was to enforce the law while you were there.
Jesse Grider 19:01
Enforce the laws while I was there, and you know, all this [these] other [stuff]
didn't---didn't affect me one way or the other, nor did I keep up with it.Ethel White 19:09
Now, had you, had you had---had your training included the kinds of things that
helped you make the decision not to go in.Jesse Grider 19:20
No, that decision was made in higher authority. We had kind of it--I was sort of the--.
Ethel White 19:26
But did you have any input, as they like to say.
Jesse Grider 19:29
No--no. mean, I--I was ready [clears throat] and--and the director knew this.
That if he gave me the word to go, we would have gone. And my training was that, you know, we could do it, but as far as the higher echelon, you know, I mean, this was a very touchy situation, and political fallouts and so forth. And if we hadn't gone--and I can see both sides. I mean, there we were taking a chance on---. [clears throat] And this is hard to come from a law enforcement person, but, you know, because they're usually hard chargers and let's--damn it, let's get this. And--but I can see both sides. I mean, I could see that if we went in there, we were going to hurt somebody, and we would have gotten some of our people had gotten hurt. So, after you sit down and look at it, I think it was probably the best way. And then when you look at Waco, you know, you think, well, Wounded Knee did turn out. And then it would have been the same type [of] situation. We would have gone in there. We would have taken it. There wasn't any question, we had the equipment, and we had the power.Ethel White 20:40
Does---does the head of the Marshall Service--is he a more political person, or
do you assume that he was getting his orders from--.Jesse Grider 20:51
He was getting his orders from the--.
Ethel White 20:53
--The attorney general--.
Jesse Grider 20:54
--The attorney general and through the White House or wherever. I'm sure
the--everybody was involved the, I don't know---remember who the secretary or who the head of the Indian agency is, but I'm sure that he was getting the same thing, you know.Ethel White 21:19
But you--nobody was telling. I mean, you didn't hear anything about--.
Jesse Grider 21:22
--No, no--.
Ethel White 21:22
--What was going on--.
Jesse Grider 21:23
---I had nothing to do with the negotiations or--that was too high up for me. I--.
Ethel White 21:28
But, I mean, nobody had told you what was going on in the negotiations.
Jesse Grider 21:32
Well, other than just sitting around like at dinner at night with the director
and picking up--and him talking to the deputy director and me with a preview of being in that group.Ethel White 21:43
Well, did you pick up anything from that or that you can remember?
Jesse Grider 21:45
Well, other than you know, I understand the attorney general is---someone having
so and so fly out here tomorrow and talk to Senator, whatever his name was. What, [George] McGovern's from North Dakota [South Dakota], wasn't he? Alvarez [James Abourezk (??], I believe was the Senator from South Dakota, I'm not sure, but I know he came out there. And deputy attorney generals would come out, and then, of course, the head of the civil rights of the Justice Department would be there.Ethel White 22:18
Were they just observing, or were they helpful or obstructive or?
Jesse Grider 22:21
--I mean, they--I don't know--.
Ethel White 22:23
--You--.
Jesse Grider 22:23
--So, that was not--.
Ethel White 22:24
--Not to you--.
Jesse Grider 22:25
No, I was operational, and I was just there trying to keep my troops happy and
ready to do whatever. And when the decision was made on what to do. If it was to go home or go in or whatever why, I was to carry it out to the best of my ability. And I--and you get in--either way you go, you get criticized. Somebody's gonna criticize you. So, I mean, it's like this Waco thing. It's my personal opinion was that, when you get ready to move on something like that, the big thing is your element of surprise. When the ATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives] lost that element of surprise, they should not have gone to start with. The idea of saying, "well, why didn't they arrest him? This guy was--would come to town every few days, or they could have got him anytime."Jesse Grider 23:31
Well, the some of the laws force law enforcement people to--to do things
[chuckles] a little bit different because of the laws. That you know, if--if I arrest you in your car, then I can search a certain part of it. If I arrest you on the sidewalk, I can't go and search your car. So, the police officer waits till you get in the car and there---then he can search you, if he thinks you might have some narcotics or firearms or whatever. A police officer can see you walking down the street and he knows you live at 7302 Ironwood (??) Road. He doesn't want to arrest you out there on the street. He wants to wait till you get in the house and arrest you in the house so then he can search certain areas. So, these things, they like to arrest you sometime---the courts, the police officers think courts are too liberal, and then you can't keep them in jail. You know, these people get out faster than you can put them in. And I know that this has happened in federal, because on weekends, it's not like a police court. On weekends, and we don't have court sitting on--in the federal system. So, a federal agent will arrest somebody on a Friday nights [night], and I got him--he'll be in jail at least for two days, because he won't go before a court or judicial officer till Monday morning.Ethel White 24:59
But how about getting the warrant?
Jesse Grider 25:02
Well, if--you may have the warrant, which you're picking your time to arrest,
you know.Ethel White 25:07
I mean when you can't get a warrant.
Jesse Grider 25:09
No, when you have---you have a warrant--.
Ethel White 25:11
--Oh--.
Jesse Grider 25:11
--You're not gonna arrest you anytime, but I don't want you on Thursday.
Ethel White 25:14
Okay.
Jesse Grider 25:14
I want you on Friday night, because I want you to spend the weekend in jail, you
know? I mean, that's just the way you---some people do things. This thing in Waco would have when they--when they had the elem--launched the element of surprise, they shouldn't have gone out there. And should have waited, maybe another month or till people had forgotten about it, and then--and then try to go in--in a surprise. Once they decided to go in, and they--they got shot. You know, those officers got killed, then they pulled out of there, and then you see what happened? It just ballooned too them--and then all these people's [have] lost their life. And so, I don't know, it's you know, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. I know, at one time I was asked, the IRS [Internal Revenue Service] used to not have arresting power.Jesse Grider 26:22
And so, if they were going in, normally, a marshal would go to make the arrest.
And we had an accountant here in South Louisville, and the IRS had a search warrant for his house. He was taking the money but not sending it in, with the tax return, and he was just keeping all this money himself. So anyway, I went out, well, old fellow was really in bad shape, and he was alcoholic. And he had these---he wasn't even making a lot of the returns in. We went out in the garage, and, I mean, he had them by the hundreds stacked in there. And he had just kept their money [chuckles] and not even mailing it in. He'd have them to make the check payable to him, you know, I'll--I have an escrow account, and you can make the check payable to me. And I'll deposit it and write a check on my escrow account, and he would just take the money and keep it and not even mail the returns in. So anyway, we searched and found all these tax returns, and I mean, hundreds of them, just boxes after boxes.Jesse Grider 27:26
And I arrested him and brought him on in town. Well, he was in very bad health
and had a bottle problem. And you know, every return you found, I believe you found a pint of whiskey or an empty bottle where he was sitting it pretty heavy. And another one and--one time I had to go to Dayton, Ohio. We--the IRS and all these gambling people, that's bookies throughout Dayton, and they were after them on taxes. They wanted records, so we coordinated, and I went up with a group of other marshals and--and we assigned a marshal to each place where we were going to hit. And so, I--I was going to take a used car lot, that office, and three IRS agents and myself. And so, I, "well, the IRS you go the front door and I'll go to the back door. Because if they know who you are--and you are to identify yourself, they're going to come out the back door, and we will knock twice. And if the door is locked, we will knock twice to identify ourselves, and if they don't open to me, we'll, bust the door down." So, the IRS agent went to the front door, I was out back, and I had a sledgehammer. And when the IRS agent knocked on the door, it was locked. He identified himself, and they didn't open the door. And I reared my sledgehammer, and I got about halfway through my swing, and the door opened, and there's this great big fellow standing there [chuckles].Jesse Grider 29:04
Well, it scared the hell out of him, and I thought I was going to hit him
between the eyes of that sledgehammer, which would have killed him. And he sort of fell back, and I hit the door frame, and the whole building shook. Of course, it was not a large building, it was a used car office. So [clears throat] anyway, we arrested them all, and in this was coordinated at a particular time. We were to hit all these bookie places at the same time, throughout Dayton, Ohio. And we made a couple of arrest[s] and got all their records, and so forth and [chuckles]. So, anyways, a lot of funny things happen. And, you know, I mean, this could have been serious, but it ended up being funny. Because if you'd seen the look on his face when he opened the door, and a sledgehammer [is] coming at him. And, I mean, he must have been a three-hundred-pound man, I mean, he was a huge fella. And I had about sixteen-pound sledgehammer, and that's a lot of weight. [laughs] And of course, I was a lot younger then too and a lot stronger. So--I had some power behind it, and the door would have come down--if he hadn't opened it. Oh, I don't know that's about---.Ethel White 30:24
Could--could we go back over the Berrigans for a minute? If that's who it was.
We think they were the--.Jesse Grider 30:29
--The priests.
Ethel White 30:29
--The two Berrigan--.
Jesse Grider 30:30
--Former priests--.
Ethel White 30:31
--Brothers--.
Jesse Grider 30:31
Yeah.
Ethel White 30:31
Philip and--.
Jesse Grider 30:32
--I can't think of--.
Ethel White 30:33
--Daniel--.
Jesse Grider 30:33
---The other one's name--.
Ethel White 30:35
--Philip and Daniel?
Jesse Grider 30:37
Is that right, I don't know. But we were---we were around them an awful lot--.
Ethel White 30:42
--Well--.
Jesse Grider 30:42
--During this time because they were the--they were sort of leaders in the
protest of the Vietnam War. And--.Ethel White 30:52
Do you remember how the first time, or can you, can you?
Jesse Grider 30:55
No, I don't. I know we went to, I believe it was Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where
they were trial[ed], and went to New Jersey. They were involved in New Jersey. I was up there, and I don't remember whether it was in Jersey City or New York, or where, I don't recall. And I think it was Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where they were--one trial they had.Ethel White 31:23
Now, you were---you were simply with them when they were--when they were on
trial. Is that correct?Jesse Grider 31:28
Well, I would go in on security.
Jesse Grider 34:22
[Tape cuts off]
Ethel White 34:22
--There--.
Jesse Grider 34:22
--At the court speakers, to be sure that--a lot of these. When these things, you
draw a lot of these, a lot of these people in. You know, it's like the Montgomery to Selma march, the majority of those people were there marching because that's something they believed in, but it draws an awful lot of other people that care less. They're just there to see what they can get out of it, and, you know, there to cause trouble or they just, they don't care. It's just a big party to them. They're not there because they care whether somebody's rights had been violated or not. --I mean, that's just true in any of those. I mean, I had a Black fellow that was a former school teaching and then later became a marshal. And we were talking one night, and he said, "you know, most of these things start with good intentions, but it's all these outsiders." The--there were people in Wounded Knee, for instance, that had no Indian--had no connection with the Indians. They just roam around, [chuckles] I guess, and has heard there's something going at Wounded Knee, and they come out. They're hoping maybe a little pot or--you know, a big party, or these religious organizations, whatever they are, followers, like the Waco thing. That, you know, I'm sure some of those people in there have been brainwashed. A lot of them there, they'd see another way to get an easy book or get a free meal and a little dope or something, you know [chuckles]Ethel White 36:00
And yet, it's the leaders that you were trained to watch.
Jesse Grider 36:03
Yeah--yeah.
Ethel White 36:03
Specifically.
Jesse Grider 36:03
Um-hmm. Well, the leaders are not--the so-called leaders are the people that
organize these things. I mean, it's like Martin Luther King. We were not--as far as marshals, were concerned, concerned with Martin Luther King doing anything, we were watching Martin Luther King for his protection. Now, a lot of this stuff has came [come] out on the FBI, that had nothing to do with us or the Civil Rights Movement. This was something---if it's all true, that [J. Edgar] Hoover was--he was so anti-Kennedy, I guess, from everything I've read. And anything that the Kennedys would have been for, particularly Bobby, I would presume he would be opposed. So, you know, that's just come out since Hoover died, and I don't know that much about it. I know they; they were very strict. I know--when I went through their school and even in the class, you wore a white shirt and tie and coat. And sitting in a class all day, and you didn't wear striped shirts, or you know, this sort of thing. If you went to a cocktail party and there was anything other than beer served, no children could come. If you wanted---if it was a barbecue and--.Ethel White 36:11
This was a--an official party, I mean.
Jesse Grider 37:35
Yeah, official party that the bureau was putting on for the students of the--
academy. [Clyde] Tolson stood by him, and Tolson took your hand first. And that story is not false, and they always said that Tolson stood to the right of Hoover and shook your hand first. To make sure your hand wasn't sweaty, or [chuckles] whatever, before you could shake hands with Hoover.Ethel White 37:38
And Tolson was?
Jesse Grider 37:53
He was his number and one man, and supposedly, there's a lot of rumor[s] going
on that there's something funny going on between Hoover and Tolson, so I don't know. But I know the occasions that--that when I went through the academy, we'd have say, a cocktail party and where you'd met [meet] Hoover, but you always met Tolson first, and then shook his hand before you would get to--to Hoover. He did always wear a white shirt, the FBI agent, after Hoover died. Which he died in the session in which I attended, the 89th session, in 1972. You immediately saw the FBI agents changing. Now you see them with their hair longer and in a---dressed differently. They don't wear the blue dark suit and the white shirt and conservative ties, and any longer. And of course, there'd never be another person like him. You know, they'll never be anybody that had the power that he had and--.Ethel White 39:15
Did you meet him other than to shake his hand.
Jesse Grider 39:18
Well, to be in the party and just, you know, talk to him briefly. Because I was
there, and several hundred other people and you didn't get to spend an awful lot of time. And I would see him in--at the Justice Department a lot of times, coming in and out in his chauffeured car. Oh, sometimes he would walk, and then he would get out on the block before, and then just in walk.Ethel White 39:45
Did you have any sense of what he was like or anything?
Jesse Grider 39:48
Well, one little, I had a friend that was an FBI agent here and went to
Washington. And his whole--whole purpose of being there was that he got the second---when the mail came into Hoover's office, he would go through the mail and he'd make the decision, what Hoover should see and what Hoover shouldn't see. And--.Ethel White 40:17
Shouldn't see or didn't need to see.
Jesse Grider 40:19
Didn't need to see, probably. He said, "that's an awful hot seat, you know,
because if I make--if I see a piece of mail, and I don't think he needs to see, and it's something he thought he should have seen, then I'm in trouble." And you just don't--he just ruled with an iron fist. I mean there and--he had the power, and he ran that agency, and nobody was going to tell him how to--how to run it, and he ran into what he wanted to. And everybody was scared of evidently, don't think I ever did anything with it. I mean, I don't know why the Kennedys, you know, with the power that Bobby Kennedy had, and [his] brother been the president. I think Kennedy was a thorn in his side. I mean, he--I know--I don't know how true a lot of that stuff is that you read or the movies that's made. You know, like Kennedy'd [Kennedy would] call Hoover and wanna see him. And Hoover says, "well, I'll see you in my office at two o'clock." I mean, here's the Attorney General of the United States coming to your office at two o'clock, have to bargain (??) with them. And Kennedy said, "no, you'll be in my office at one o'clock." So, it just, and a lot of this stuff, I'm sure is true that, you know, a lot of it's come out now that they had bugged Keen's (??) phone and tapped his phones and this sort of thing.Ethel White 41:57
But you don't know anything directly yourself.
Jesse Grider 41:58
But I don't know any of that and then to--where I got off of the story was that
you were not there worrying about these people hurting anyone or causing---other than disruptive or, you know, getting attention. It was like the Chicago Southern, in Chicago. You know, they, I don't think they was [were] going to hurt anybody in the courtroom, but they just didn't want that trial to go on, and they were just very disruptive, and--.Ethel White 42:35
Now, you were there?
Jesse Grider 42:36
No.
Ethel White 42:36
No.
Jesse Grider 42:37
--I had a guy working for me in Chicago that was a court security guy, and he
ran the detail there before Judge Coffman (??). But they were just, you know, you would have to come up, well, either judge, the only way we can control it is that you know, you can instruct them, we can gag them, we can cuff them, we can chain them. We can remove them from the courtroom and set up communications. And the only thing we can do is to advise the court. Which, you know, this is what we can do. And you know, if you order it, that's what we'll do. Or a judge could say, "well why don't--how do you suggest we handle this." Well then, you throw out your suggestions, and if the courts--doesn't--feels like that that's not fair, or whatever, then you didn't do them.Ethel White 43:40
Now, what about--I was thinking about the Vietnam demonstration, the March on
the Pentagon. And you talked about finding the leaders in the crowd and watching them. So that they--.Jesse Grider 43:52
--Well, these were--.
Ethel White 43:52
--These were not the top leaders.
Jesse Grider 43:54
No.
Ethel White 43:54
---These were some of these elements that you're talking about here.
Jesse Grider 43:57
Right--right.
Ethel White 43:57
The--wilder ones.
Jesse Grider 43:58
--They wanted something to go. They wanted to get some--.
Jesse Grider 44:00
--Action, you know, they---they'd run around and try to do all they could to get
a fight going. And, you know, once you get a little scuffle or a little fight going, and it seems like it just continues and--.Ethel White 44:00
--Okay.
Ethel White 44:21
Okay, so, so now back to the Berrigans. You weren't so worried about the
Berrigans as some of their followers, is that right.Jesse Grider 44:32
Right---and to and then just--.
Ethel White 44:35
--They were--
Jesse Grider 44:35
--As I say, they were not any danger, as far as hurting---harming anyone.
Ethel White 44:40
Right.
Jesse Grider 44:40
It was, it was the people that something like this [will] draws [draw], you know?
Ethel White 44:48
So, what were you doing physically? You--were you in the courtroom, were you--.
Jesse Grider 44:52
--We were in the courtroom. We were trying to keep the--what we would do--. The
federal court in particular, you, normally, there is no standing. You only let those people in that you have seats for. You come up with all different ways of doing it, you know, first come, first serve. We issue a number, we know, and we have the seats numbered in the courtroom. We know that if we issue you number one, you're going to be sitting in seat number one, so we know who you are. The type of things in case someone does get in. We--I went through this in West Virginia. I was called in there, I don't know whether I even mentioned that or not, during the coal mine strike. And they were shutting down, it was--and the coal miners was---didn't have anything to do with coal mining. It was something to do with some of the books that were being used in the public schools in Charleston, South Carolina.Jesse Grider 46:01
And the coal miners agreed that they shouldn't be used in the public schools,
and so, they were striking to protest the ----using [the use] of these books in the educational system [chuckles] in Charleston, South Carolina. The coal companies went into federal court for an injunction, and it was an illegal strike had nothing to do with [chuckles]. So, the judge in Charleston, and I can't think of his name, ordered the coal miners back to work. The director's office called me and wanted me to set a--get a group of marshals to go over to serve these injunctions against the leaders of the unions of the coal miners.Jesse Grider 47:05
They at that time, the marshal and I, gosh, I have to be off careful--it was
Marshal Humphreys (??), I believe, was his name, and he was not a--again, not in the background in law enforcement. The judge---they were having a hearing. We went out and I assigned marshals to different coal mines and to go out at anybody that looked like they were setting up a picket line to keep miners from going to work, slap an injunction on them. Get name, address, anything, everything you can pertain to that individual, so later we can come back and say "yes, he was notified that this was illegal," [clears throat] and if he can be held in contempt of court and explain to the Judge that, "yes, I served this temporary restraining order on--on Joe Blow in mine number nine and somewhere on the Catala (??) River or something." Get all information we could and so, the day of the hear--was--set for the hearing, then we had all the leaders of the so-called leaders of the union in--in the courtroom.Jesse Grider 48:24
Well, here come[s] all these, hundreds of coal miners to the federal building.
The judge says, "this is the time that I make sure that everyone that's out there understands this injunction." And handed the injunction to the marshal to go out on the courthouse steps and to read this injunction to all these hundreds of people out in the--protesting. The marshal wouldn't read it.Ethel White 48:58
This is Humphreys or?
Jesse Grider 49:00
The marshal of the district, which he should have been the one to read it, it
was his territory. So, the judge called me up, and said, "I want you to read it." Well, I had a loud, strong voice, and I guess that was probably the reason, and Humphreys had a little soft voice that probably three people now couldn't have heard him. And so, I went out and I told him I had something I wanted to read to them. "And I think it's in the interest of you to listen to this and listen carefully." And "where the hell are you from? You're not from here you don't know anything about it." I said, "I'm across the line. I'm from Kentucky. "Well, you're probably driving over in a damn, big car belonging to the federal government." And I said, "I'm over here in my own car, and it's a 1975 Chevrolet station wagon." And [chuckles] I said, "now, keep you damn mouth shut and listen to this, it's important." And I read it as loud as I could, and, I mean, it must have been twenty pages. So, then we--they all--they---we joked back and forth. So, we got along pretty well, and I got down and amongst them. And, you know, they--Barbara always said I was--had a lot of bullshit in me, the way that I could BS with everybody.Jesse Grider 49:00
Humphreys.
Ethel White 49:00
Okay.
Jesse Grider 49:23
So, I go back up in the courtroom and we have it, and then they all want to come
to the courtroom. And I says, "you can't come in the damn building, you can only--when the courtroom's full, that's it." If anybody leaves, the marshal will come out and say, "we've got room for three. “And I said, "there just--there's no way you can handle this many people in the building, so there's no need of you coming in the building." So, I go back up and then, the judge, again, asked me to read the same injunction to all those people who are in the courtroom.Jesse Grider 50:57
And now, I had just read this [these] fifteen or twenty pages outside. So, I
had--and again the marshals, this was his court, his district, but the judge wanted me to read, so I read it--I read it, again. And then the judge asked everyone in the courtroom, "is there anything in there that you don't understand?" [chuckles] and no questions was [were] asked so, I guess they understood. But anyway, this was--went on for--we were over there maybe a week or something. They had a big chemical plant in Ironton Ohio, went on strike, and they were not letting the railroad cars in to the chemical plant. So, I had to go up there with four or five marshals, at that time. They were stopping in the train, and I was to go up to see that they didn't stop another train.Jesse Grider 51:53
So, it was cool weather, and they had a big fire built in a big garbage--big
barrel there, and they had put a tree across the railroad track. So, I called the railroad company, and they---they sent in a crane to lift that tree, and there was a---maybe fifty union people there protesting. And I was standing there watching that crane pick that tree up, and there was a high-power wire up above. And I thought, "my God, I hope that crane doesn't touch that wire." Well, about that time of these damn union people threw a handful of firecrackers in that fire, and I [chuckles] jumped about five feet. Well, that tickled the hell out of them. Because it scared me--scared this marshal to death. And of course, I was thinking, --I'm not even looking at them. I was watching that wire [thinking], damn, he's getting awful[ly] close to that thing. And then all of a sudden, pow, all these firecrackers.Jesse Grider 52:54
So anyway, we got that removed, and the train went in. So, then I got BSing with
these union people, and they were telling me they've got troops in those box car--I mean, they've got workers in those box cars they're hauling in there to do this work. And I said, "well, I don't know what's in there. It's got a damn seal on it."Jesse Grider 53:12
"I mean, if I gotta to come over here, I'll show you." I said, "now, fella, you
see that seal? That's a federal offence. I'm gonna stand here watch you, and if you wanna break that seal and open that car," I said, "you go on." I said, "then you [are] gonna be in the backseat of my car because you're going to jail." I said, "well, you break that seal." Well, he stood there, he [chuckles] wasn't about to break that seal on that boxcar. So, then after that, we sort of got along pretty well. And they could see I meant what I said---and I said, "I don't know damn thing about this, but you're not stopping this train. Now, what your gripe is is your business, it's between you and the chemical company, and I have nothing to do with that. I'm here to see that this train comes and goes as it pleases, and it's going to come and go, and you know, if all of you have to go to jail, that's fine. I don't have enough people here now. I'll call a hundred more, two hundred more, whatever it takes, but the train's gonna run." Well, they mumbled and fussed around, between the time I left in four or five days, we were big buddies, and you know, just yakking with each other, but I think that's about it.Jesse Grider 54:29
[Tape cuts off]
Jesse Grider 54:29
Say, if you had a---if you had a coal mine back, on one of those little dirt
roads, a fellow would stop on side of the road and raise the hood of his car, and he would stand there at the--looking at his motor. Well, all the miners knew, you'd better not go up that dirt road, this is a protest, and he's striking. But if I came up and said, "oh, son, I don't know anything about them damn mine[s], my car won't run, I'm sitting here checking my engine out." [chuckles] Well, I'd slap one on him anyway. I said, "we'll make damn sure, you may be telling the truth, I don't know." But, I said, "I'm gonna slap this on you." And I said--.Ethel White 55:11
--Slap an injunction?
Jesse Grider 55:12
An injunction on you, and I said, "if this is a type of strike, or if you
are--because you're sitting here, then you're going to be in some serious trouble, buddy." And so, I'd slap one on him, and then I'd leave. Well, that--well, he'd leave, he'd get scared, see. He'd go back to the union, and they'd--he'd send somebody else, or, you know, some other reason. There was a little country store there, and two of them were just sitting on the front porch drinking an RC or some kind of cold drink. Well, these pig miners would come in there to go to work, and they see them two sitting up there, they wouldn't go back. They'd turn around and go back. Now, you know, it's a form of striking and a form of interfering with the federal court order. But you know, "I wasn't doing nothing--I was just loafing around that old store and got me a--cold one (??)." [laughs]Ethel White 56:09
They knew it was a signal.
Jesse Grider 56:10
Why, sure.
Ethel White 56:11
And this--you're talking about Charleston now.
Jesse Grider 56:12
Yeah--yeah, I mean, that---that would be true in a lot of those situations. That
you know, I mean, in the union, the head of the union of that particular district, or whatever they are, they would be sitting back in the union hall somewhere. They wouldn't be out there. "Well, I don't know what them old my boys are doing, I can't keep up with them. [laughter]Jesse Grider 56:35
[Tape cuts off].
[End of interview].
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