Jesse Grider 00:11
I--you know, I had a lot of---we always had military people there as a[n]
observer in any of these situations. And I would presume that was at the request of [the] Justice Department, in case things got so completely out of hand that the military had to come in to quiet them down, which would have been the last resort. You know, I rode the train, when we moved that deadly gas from Bluegrass Field in Lexington to Wilmington, Delaware. There were only two marshals on the train, the rest of them were military. And we put a rabbit back with that gas [chuckles], and you can damn well bet I watched that rabbit pretty close. Because if that rabbit dies, then I know something's wrong and in fact, we had three rabbits on the train I rode. And the purpose of this ride, and it was that--there was [were] an awful lot of rumors or people protesting this deadly gas being moved through their towns, and that they were going to block the railroad tracks and this sort of thing. So, we were there to make any arrest, if had to be, and the military would detain force. Because, you know, with two marshals, how many people could you handle? So anyway, luckily, there wasn't any instances. I think it took three days for us to make that--there was one left in Alabama and one left in Lexington, and both headed to Wilmington, Delaware with this deadly gas. And as I say, we had test rabbits on--in the--on the cars, where these, this deadly gas was. And I didn't sit there and watch the rabbits, but I did run back every once in a while, to be sure they were kicking.Ethel White 02:17
---What year was this, or roughly?
Jesse Grider 02:19
I---you know, I don't know. I'm sure that'd be easy to find out because we got
an awful lot of publicity--.Ethel White 02:29
--Right.
Jesse Grider 02:29
--Because they were--went around here for so long trying to figure out what they
were going to do with it. And I---when we got there---then I had to call Washington that, you know, we had safely arrived and no to---make my report, but they were loading it on a boat. And I presume, to take it out and drop it in the ocean. I [laughs] don't know. And I can't imagine why they'd be putting it on a boat. In fact, I think that may have been in the paper, that that's what--how they were going to dispose of it. But when that train got to where it was going--in which it had got to the shipyards ---in Wilmington, I could care less what---I was so glad to get the hell away from it. [clears throat]Ethel White 03:19
Was there anything else besides a rabbit that you can remember that they used to--.
Jesse Grider 03:23
---I don't think so.
Ethel White 03:24
--Contain it or test it or any of that kind of thing---.
Jesse Grider 03:26
---I think rabbits were the--I mean, there may have been other animals, but this
is---the powers to be saying that you know, the rabbit, if a--if it's leaking, the rabbit will die immediately, so.Ethel White 03:40
And what was the gas in? I mean, contain--I mean drums---.
Jesse Grider 03:42
--Big containers, yeah, big---.
Jesse Grider 03:44
Um-hmm. And, of course, you weren't about jumping a track. And, you know, the
military never does anything small. And here we were equipped to, I mean, full-field kitchens. And, you know, like you could go out and live enough sea rations and rations that you could have lived in the field for months. You know, and it just sort of reminded me of being back in the army. They were also loaded on these trains. Because if you'd derail then, you know, we'd have to secure the whole area. I don't know how far the stuff [chuckles] would cover, but they were prepared. And luckily, we had no problem, nor the train out of Alabama had no problem[s]. Very few protesters, I'd see a few, you know, as you'd go through a town why, you'd see a few standing out with their signs or something but---. No one tried to block it, there were no problem[s]. So, when we got there, I made my call, I got off the train, and when it backed into the naval, I used a payphone, and I never will forget it. Because I put my money in the--in the payphone and called Washington, and when I hung up, money started falling out of that phone. I didn't know what to do with it so much. [clears throat] So, I gave it some soldiers instead. And I said, "hell, I don't [laughs] wanna fool with this" And I gave it to him, and I'm sure he played poker with it that night. Then we flew back---Purdue Airline, the military had chartered a--we were gonna fly commercial, another marshal and I back to Louisville.Ethel White 03:44
--Just metal.
Ethel White 05:33
Now, who was the other marshal?
Jesse Grider 05:35
Gilbert Bryant.
Ethel White 05:35
Gilbert Bryant.
Jesse Grider 05:36
Yeah, and we flew back military had chartered Purdue Airlines, and so, we flew
back---they would let us fly back with them, and then which landed in Louisville. So, that was the end of our gas train experience.Ethel White 05:58
And were you---were you trained in any way about---I mean, how are you trained
ahead of time to--.Jesse Grider 06:04
--No, you had no--.
Ethel White 06:06
---To either handle the--
Jesse Grider 06:06
--Well, other than the training (??)-.
Ethel White 06:08
--Gas or something--.
Jesse Grider 06:09
--I had nothing to do with--.
Ethel White 06:10
--You were just--.
Jesse Grider 06:12
--The gas. I was there to be sure no one stopped to train.
Ethel White 06:14
Okay. Is that right?
Jesse Grider 06:15
That was my---.
Ethel White 06:16
--Nothing about the gas.
Jesse Grider 06:17
I knew nothing about the gas, that was a military problem, and I was there just
to be sure no one--if I had to make an arrest, I had to arrest them.Ethel White 06:26
Were there military people on the train that--.
Jesse Grider 06:28
Oh, yes, MPs [Military Police]--.
Ethel White 06:29
--That knew about the gas--.
Jesse Grider 06:31
Um-hmm. Yeah, everybody on the train knew about the gas and knew why were there.
The--the squadron or the MPs were there to help me if I had to make [an] arrest and they would detain the people.Jesse Grider 06:54
Then---I forgot; I don't know how many people were on the train. I've forgotten,
but I think they all--we all came back on--I would say probably a hundred people, just as a guess and military. And there was a colonel, I can't remember his name, offhand, but the colonel that was in charge of the overall transportation, or moving, of the gas. I know I-- (??) Gilbert and I drove my car to Lexington and left it and got on the train there at bluegrass ordinance, or whatever they call it. And I don't recall how I got my car back. I must have come on into--flew into Louisville, and then somebody took me back over to get my car, but. Anyway, we didn't have any problems with it. You know, there's so many of these things, and I just can't the Kent thing. You know--.Ethel White 07:59
Yeah.
Jesse Grider 07:59
--We really didn't have a lot to do, that was the National Guard that did the
shooting there.Ethel White 08:04
Now this is--you're talking about Kent State.
Jesse Grider 08:05
Kent State.
Ethel White 08:06
In about 1972.
Jesse Grider 08:09
Yeah.
Ethel White 08:09
Yeah.
Jesse Grider 08:15
That was all a state matter. As I recall, and the governor---or had called out
the National Guard. And what happened, I don't know, was---other than what I read about it. And that evidently, the National Guardmen--some of them, they lost their cool and shot the students. Now, whether that comes from improper training or what I don't know, but you know, you're not--. Law enforcement is--only uses that force that is absolutely necessary to secure the person. And you can't--you can't shoot someone just because they're protesting or--. You know unless your life or some other one's in danger. So, I don't know what happened there they--. I know they had---people demanded [an] investigation, and evidently that was done, and how I got involved in it---. Evidently the--I think [John] Mitchell was the attorney general at the time.Jesse Grider 09:32
And how I got involved it, I had my boss to call me one, the director. And the
grand jury had completed its investigation in D.C., I presume. And Mitchell had written a letter to the parents of the six, I believe, or however many there was, people that were shot. And---.Ethel White 10:03
These were students.
Jesse Grider 10:04
These were students, the parents of the students. And the---my boss says that
these letters---to get a detail and hand deliver these letters, and they're to be given to the parents within five minutes apart, after two o'clock in the afternoon or something--time. And they were located in---I've forgotten how many different cities, but anyway, I called six people or however many there was, that I had confidence in to--deputy marshals and called them into Washington. And--the day before and told them what we had to do and that we had to hand deliver them, and they had to be handed to the parents within five minutes of each other. Which was going to take some coordination, because they were located mostly in the east and Ohio and Pennsylvania and-- in that area. And we--I had the address of all of them, the families. And so, I sent them to their respective cities and areas to--to do this. And we did---we did them and the minute they were done, they were to call me in Washington and to my boss to--through the attorney general that it had been done in the specific time to the minute that they were handed to them. And I think he wanted to make a press release, the attorney general, I found out later, but he didn't want to make it until the parents had been notified. And they were all delivered within the five-minute time frame, with exception of one family, and they were in Europe someplace. And they called me, and I passed it on through the chain of command through my director, which the attorney--and then later that afternoon, he made the press release that they--. As I recall, the release was that the grand jury had found no violation of civil rights or laws or whatever. And---as they refer to as a no bill, had not indicted anyone for this purpose.Ethel White 12:47
Well, what about the family in Europe was--was that a (??)--.
Jesse Grider 12:50
[Clears throat] ---I don't know it was--.
Ethel White 12:52
--I mean, did they--?
Jesse Grider 12:53
--The only thing I could do--.
Jesse Grider 12:54
--Is advise them whether they were--and I gave them where I thought they were.
It's the best information we had. And whether the justice---attorney general had called them or not, I don't know. But I--they may have gone through the ambassador, you know, delivered it from that. I really don't know, when I---I was pretty proud of my time in on it and a--and a job well done, but I didn't follow through. Because it was just--at that time I was in Washington, and everything had to be done yesterday, so you immediately just jumped out of bed into something else and---. But I was---and so was my director and the attorney general thought that it was a job--.Ethel White 12:54
--Get it on time?
Ethel White 13:43
--It worked out fine--.
Jesse Grider 13:44
--Done big, to coordinate it and do it within those [that] matter of minutes.
Ethel White 13:51
Should we--is that--are you--.
Jesse Grider 13:51
--That's all--.
Ethel White 13:52
--Finished with that, yeah--.
Jesse Grider 13:54
---I had to do with Kent. I mean, I knew nothing about [it] other than what I read.
Ethel White 13:59
Because I think we---we've talked about, moving on to Robert Kennedy, and your
association with him.Jesse Grider 14:08
Okay, I---I had the pleasure of meeting Bobby Kennedy as attorney general on two
or three different occasions. And I had talked to him on the phone on two occasions.Ethel White 14:23
Why?
Jesse Grider 14:24
Thanking me for a well--job well done. Later writing me, a letter thanking me
for a job and receiving some distinguished service award from him.Ethel White 14:42
Do you remember precisely what they were for?
Jesse Grider 14:46
Well---.
Ethel White 14:47
--Which incidences?
Jesse Grider 14:47
--One of them, I think was over the [Jimmy] Hoffa trial. I don't think there's
any doubt about it, he was out to get Jimmy Hoffa, and had been [chuckles] for a number of years. A lot of it was to do with the--the civil rights in the South. One of them was to do with training--my training the marshals for---preparing them for this. It was quite an honor that, my director at that time was Jim McShane, was the director of the marshal service. Jim was a former New York City policeman. He had, I don't know whether he had retired or resigned from the New York [City] Police Department to go to work for Bobby Kennedy, when he was in the--representing the committee in the Senate. That was investigating the labor movements in the United States, particularly The Teamsters union, which Hoffa happened to be the president of. McShane and Bobby Kennedy were awful[ly] close. So, I was very honored when---after the assassination of Bobby Kennedy in Los Angeles, that McShane called me and wanted me to be in Washington as an honorary pallbearer for his funeral. And I had a heck of a time getting a flight out of here. So, after I explained to the airlines, they gave me the jump seat. And so, I flew in that jump seat from--which is normally the airline stewardess’s seats, to Dayton, Ohio. I had to go from Louisville to Dayton to Baltimore and grab a bus from Baltimore down to D.C. That was the only way I could get in there. And so, I did attend the funeral as an honorary pallbearer.Ethel White 14:50
Now--.
Jesse Grider 15:09
And there was [were] about six of us, I think.
Ethel White 17:02
So the--basically, the marshals were asked to supply or be the honorary
pallbearers and so, McShane picked you.Jesse Grider 17:11
Picked me. One of six, one out of Florida, myself, and one out of Baltimore--two
out of Florida and myself, one out of D.C. And I don't remember where the others were from offhand. But anyway, he and when--then, another time he'd flown into Louisville, and I had picked him up at the airport and--.Ethel White 17:43
Kennedy or?
Jesse Grider 17:44
Bobby Kennedy and bought him to the Kentucky Hotel. Well, it was the Kentucky,
it's now The Sheraton--when was that, was that the Kentucky Hotel. Well, anyway, we had a suite there, and I don't recall why he was here, but I do know that it sort of amazed me that I was in the room with him. And he---among other people, and they fixed him a glass of bourbon and--with the little stir stick in it, and he threw it to the side and took his finger and mixed his drink, and then licked his finger and I [chuckles] which sort of---. I don't know why that caught my eye, but it did. You know, there's not many people you see do that and then suck their finger too. So, I guess it's finger licking good bourbon. [laughs]Jesse Grider 18:42
I---that was about all of my you know, [The] Justice [Department] is a big--.
Jesse Grider 18:49
outfit and--. [Tape cuts off]
Jesse Grider 18:51
You knew Mitchell, and you knew Kleindienst
Jesse Grider 18:51
--But Justice is an awful lot of employees. And, you know, with the FBI under
the Justice Department, the marshals under the Justice Department and the Civil Rights Division, the Criminal Division, and all these different--several thousand. And it just sort of made you feel good that the head of the entire thing---and Bobby Kennedy was not the only one. Mitchell was all right, I mean, he---he was more political, but he was not---he was not as pro-law enforcement as Kennedy was. [Richard] Kleindienst was attorney general; I didn't know him that well. I did attend a few parties, like Christmas parties and that sort of thing that he came over for, at the director's office.Jesse Grider 19:48
Kleindienst.
Ethel White 19:48
A little bit.
Jesse Grider 19:49
And it's--I knew [William] Saxbe from---from Ohio, that was attorney general, I
guess, under [Richard] Nixon, sometime. I knew [Edward] Levi, the professor from Chicago Law School, who was attorney general. I had occasion to meet him a couple times. And some of them were just the---(??)---business that--. The Justice Department is---is good in ways that you are nominated for special awards and for outstanding work or something. And if--then it goes through a committee, and if you're awarded one, then you're called to Justice, and they have a day set aside. And the---they will present you with a plaque and sometimes money. --and I had the occasion to get several of those over the years, and so I would---how I would get to meet all the attorney generals. Because normally the attorney general would present you these things. Elliot Richardson was attorney general, at one time.Ethel White 20:03
Who?
Jesse Grider 21:07
Elliot Richardson.
Ethel White 21:13
Oh. Richardson, yeah.
Jesse Grider 21:17
Gosh, I don't know.
Ethel White 21:18
Now, what do you mean when you say that----that Mitchell was less--less prone to
law enforcement--.Jesse Grider 21:24
--I think he was--.
Ethel White 21:26
--Than Kennedy?
Jesse Grider 21:26
--Probably more--he was more political. I mean, Kennedy was political, but he
was a---what I found to be, that if he--- when he ordered something done, he was behind you. You know, I mean, let's do it.Ethel White 21:46
Who--which he?
Jesse Grider 21:46
Kennedy.
Jesse Grider 21:47
A lot of others they---and I'm sure Kennedy did too, to a certain extent, but it
was an unusual position. You know, there's not many attorney generals and a brother [who's] President of the United States. So he---what he said, was pretty well accepted on down the line. What I've read, the President of the United States said Bobby Kennedy was his most trusted ally. So, I think a lot of the others, they---a lot of times, weighed the political, which is the way the system is. And I think when you look at this Waco thing and what's happened, and you look at the Wounded Knee thing, it could have been-- Wounded Knee could have been the same thing. Tou know, I don't know that much about Waco, we could have taken Wounded Knee back anytime we wanted to. I mean, there wasn't any if and buts about it. We had the manpower and the equipment, and we could have gone into Wounded Knee and kicked those people out of there anytime we wanted to, but there would have been people hurt.Ethel White 21:47
Kennedy,
Ethel White 23:04
Can we hold that just for one minute?
Jesse Grider 23:06
Sure.
Ethel White 23:06
Because that's something we really do want to focus on. But just before we get
away from these attorney generals--- attorneys general. Anything else that you remember about Kennedy, since you seem to know him the best.Jesse Grider 23:27
No, I mean, I just---from the---from the power and money that he came from, he
was just sort of down to earth. I mean, you know he---he was not a stiff shirt, so to speak. His tie was untied half the time or it was never---shirt collar was unbuttoned half the time. Or maybe, like me sitting around in his sock feet with his shoes off at his----in his office, or. I mean, you know, he was just, I don't know how to describe it, other than you just don't expect someone like that to be down to earth as he was, which he wasn't trying to impress anybody [chuckles] and didn't have to, I guess.Ethel White 24:16
Did that have something to do with his popularity, do you think?
Jesse Grider 24:18
----I think a little of both, you know, I mean, it's--it's a lot like Judge
[Charles] Allen. You know, I mean, Judge Allen is Judge Allen, and he doesn't have to---he's not out to prove anything or impress [chuckles] anyone, you know, type of that. And I think Bobby Kennedy was just popular. He had the power, he didn't have to prove he had the power, you know. Ad it may be like a politician told me one time, that it's not how much power you have, it's how much people think you have. So, I guess there's a lot of truth to that.Ethel White 25:00
What about that funeral, do you remember anything from your own perspective,
about the funeral in particular?Jesse Grider 25:07
Well, not really. I mean, we---it took the train an awful long time to get
there. And, you know, it seemed like we were there all day, at the cemetery.Ethel White 25:20
Were you on--oh, you were waiting for the train.
Jesse Grider 25:22
We were waiting at the--at the cemetery. I've---little---at that time, when
other law enforcement agencies--federal law enforcement arrest someone, they would normally bring them into the marshal and turn them over to the marshal. And the marshal would process and fingerprint them and mugshots and take them before a judicial officer. It's sort of funny, that the Secret Service had arrested someone there. Because they had tried to get in certain areas that they were not entitled to be in. Because the President was coming, and the Secret Service had to--.Ethel White 26:04
Arresting them at the funeral--what--
Jesse Grider 26:07
Yeah, they had to.
Ethel White 26:08
Okay.
Jesse Grider 26:08
Because the--President [Lyndon] Johnson was coming out, and, you know, the
Secret Service is very touchy about it when he was around. So, they arrested this guy because he wouldn't leave or whatever. And the agent walked over to me, and of course, I had my marshal identification on. And he said, "I just arrested this fella, and I want to turn him over to you." And I said, "fellow, you've not turning him over to me." I said, "what the hell am I going to do with him?" And he says, "well, that's normal procedure." And I said, "not at this situation, it isn't." I said, "I'm not taking your prisoner, you arrested him, you take him." So, I don't know what ever happened to him, but he was gonna try to con him off on me and me sitting there with a prisoner---. And of course, he was concerned about---he's supposed to be down with the---President Johnson was coming out and--and along with, well, everybody that's---was anybody, I guess, in political circles was there.Jesse Grider 27:10
That's about all the-- [tape cuts off].
Ethel White 27:15
It's now May 19th, and the machine is fixed, and we're continuing.
Jesse Grider 27:21
Well, I guess the next national attention was the American Indian movement,
known as AIM. A-I-M, to go back a little bit, I presume, and I don't know this, that it worked for the Blacks, and I guess the Indians saw what they had accomplished in their protest and demonstrations and so forth. So, the Indians started their own and they---when Alcatraz was closed, when the U.S. penitentiary in Marion, Illinois was built and to replace Alcatraz. The Indians had taken---that moved on Alcatraz and refused to leave. So, we had to send marshals in there to remove the Indians off of the---the island of Alcatraz. A little later and what year [clears throat] I've forgotten, AIM, the American Indian movement then took over the BIA Building, Bureau of Indian Affair[s] Building in Washington, D.C. And they occupied that building for a few days. I don't recall how many, and we had marshals there that was [were] waiting to go in and try to--to remove the Indians.Jesse Grider 28:51
They had almost---well, they had wrecked all the equipment in the building and
typewri---all sorts of office equipment and files scattered all over and a lot of damage to the contents of the building. A lot of windows broken out in the building and some damage, but mostly to the equipment. But anyway, we were there to--to go in if the attorney general had ordered to remove them out of the--out of the building, and we were getting all sorts of information of some of the equipment they had or, to try to keep us out. Such as Clorox and bleach mixed and they had it in cans, they were going to pour down on you as you---as we started in the building, and just all sorts of things. Now, I did get some weapons. They had iron pipes with taped ends as--to use as weapons, and all sorts of clubs and this sort of thing.Ethel White 29:59
Their weapons, still--.
Jesse Grider 30:01
--They--
Ethel White 30:01
--You're still talking about their--their weapons?
Jesse Grider 30:03
Yes, yes.
Ethel White 30:03
Yeah.
Jesse Grider 30:03
The Indians had. Anyway, it was negotiated and fine after a few days, and they
never did give us--. Of course, any situation like this, some people were going to get hurt on both sides. And at that time, they'd rather to negotiate and---then to have someone get hurt. So, they did finally agree to leave the building, and they did, and in shambles. So, sometime later, and I do not recall even what year, and I'm sure it was after the BIA building.Ethel White 30:41
And when was the BIA building?
Jesse Grider 30:42
I---.
Ethel White 30:43
Do you remember?
Jesse Grider 30:45
No, I don't know.
Ethel White 30:45
Okay. Do you remember who was attorney general?
Jesse Grider 30:48
I think [John] Mitchell or [Richard] Kleindienst so, I think it was under---the
[Richard] Nixon administration was in.Ethel White 30:57
Okay.
Jesse Grider 30:58
So, then we had---the Bureau of Indian Affair[s] is---I don't understand
their--their set up so much, but the Bureau of Indian Affair[s] has police, and then the tribes have their own tribal police. Have to refer to it, with the BIA police are not---at that time anyway, were not that large nor that strong. And I really don't know what their function was, I guess, try to keep peace on these reservations or whatever. But we had information that they were going to try to take over the BIA Building in Pine Ridge, South Dakota. which is the Sioux Nation.Jesse Grider 34:25
[Tape cuts off]
Jesse Grider 34:25
--From the Sioux reservation there. There's some question as to whether that's
true or not, because then [Dennis] Banks is one of the leaders of the--was one of the leaders, and probably still is, of the movement---American Indian Movement. And [clears throat] they marched to the----to the BIA building, and we were prepared to see that they did not get in. And I really don't know what they--why they wanted to take these buildings over. I think they were claiming maybe that the BIA was not doing enough for the Indians, and that they. As I understand it, the Indians---according to how much Indian blood you have, say Sioux. Which. this happened to be the Sioux Indian, is how much land you [are] entitled to on the reservation. For instance, if you have 1/32nd, you know, you might be entitled to a building lot on the reservation. If you were full, why, you were entitled several acres, maybe. Now, that's my understanding, I don't know that, from picking this up there.Jesse Grider 35:53
The chief of the Sioux Tribe [Oglala Lakota] at--at Pine Ridge was a fellow by
the name of [Richard] Wilson. Now, what his Indian name was, I don't know, but I dealt with him quite a bit. He---according to--the civil rights had ruled the---ruled the place with goons, they referred to. Which is--he hadn't paid his people to enforce the laws and keep down problems within the--within the--on the Indian reservation. And he was chief of the tribe and the council, either they control the whole reservation. And the move, I think, was more against him there, than it was against the BIA, but the Indians were upset because the BIA was not doing anything to remove him from---from his chairman of the Sioux Nation [Oglala Lakota]. But anyway, [clears throat] they protested, and they marched to the BIA building, and we pretty well had it secured. There was no way we were going to let them take the building over.Ethel White 37:13
Now, how did you have it secured? Because I just--I'm asking--.
Jesse Grider 37:15
--Well, we had---we had marshals on the ground floor. We had marshals on the
roof, that was [were] equipped to disperse anyone---any group that we wanted to disperse, if it became necessary. My boss and I discussed as to whether we were going to let them come to the building or not. And he and I were on the--it was only a two-story building, as I recall, and we were on the roof of the building and talking to the leader of the protest, from the roof. And my boss decided that he would go down and talk to them face-to-face, rather than speaking to him from the roof. And his words to me was [were], "do whatever's necessary, but don't let them get me." And I mean, this was a little bit of a concern, but he went down and talked to him and my boss at that time was [by] the name of KASH, K-A-S-H. He has since retired, which--but I'm not going to get into but had quite a history himself. And then he was a retired military and--but anyway, he went down and talked to them. They were peaceful. They caused us no problems at all. They had their say and read their letters or whatever, and then they left. So, we stayed around a few days, and I would go out then to--they were meeting in a church, there on the reservation someplace, I've forgotten the name of the road. A--.Jesse Grider 39:02
And they were meeting one afternoon at four o'clock, so, another marshal and I
went out there to attend the meeting. And what we were trying to do---our intent, was to just try to build a trust between the movement and us. To let them know we were not there to try to stop their---their goals or to interfere with their protest. But that you know, there was ways to do it, and violent [violence] was not one of them. So, we attended the meeting at the church, and they danced---they dressed in their--. Well, to back up a little bit, they were cooking out back. They had a big steel pot, and they were cooking buffalo in this big vat, and this Indian squaw---an older lady and dress--they were all dressed in, all Indian clothing, or Indian dress. And she needed something to mix the meat up with, and she didn't have anything, so she got the broom [chuckles] and she just turned it up and used the handle of the broom to--to mix her meat, or whatever it was to--turn or whatever she was doing. It was in a huge vat in water, and she evidently couldn't speak any English. So, after---when the meat and I stood out there and watched her a long time and talked to her. And then there was [were] a lot of Indians there, and they [there] were some inside and some out.Jesse Grider 40:46
And when the meat was--the other marshal and I were standing there and the meat,
she decided, was ready to eat. That she wanted us to eat some, and I--I refused. And because I saw how dirty the thing were [was] and I didn't want to eat any of that dirty meat. But then the marshal that was with me, which was from Kansas, he said, "oh," says, "we've got to eat some of this, if we don't, we'll make them mad." So [chuckles] eat so, he got his pocket knife out, and we cut us a little piece of meat and I ate it. It didn't taste bad, dirt and all. So, anyway, they served their buffalo, and everybody ate, and they went into their meeting. And it was beginning to get dark, and they were doing their--there wasn't anybody could ask. So, I don't know whether it was a war dance or, but they had the drums going and doing their dancing in the church and this sort of thing. And we were just sort of in the back, and I would step out some and--to smoke, and I'd go back in and watch them. And it was a little spooky, really, and by then it was---then it was dark and--but they were---they sort of ignored us. They didn't---the leader, I would talk to, and I can't recall his name quite a bit, but the--the other people just sort of ignored us. So, anyway, we've gone back to bed (??) and everything's going real[ly] well, and my boss decided that he was going home. And that I would stay another day or two, and if everything was all right, then we would shut down and go back to our respective districts. And I--something happened, and I don't recall exactly what, but then my big boss came out.Ethel White 42:48
This is---the meeting is still going on now.
Jesse Grider 42:51
No, is this--.
Ethel White 42:52
No, this is later.
Jesse Grider 42:52
This is a day or two later.
Ethel White 42:54
Okay.
Jesse Grider 42:55
And now, I think what happened that night--my boss that night was going to leave
the next morning. And that night, he got a call and said we were not to leave, that he's to stay, and that the number two man from the marshal service was flying out---Bill Hall. And it there--was rumors that something was going on. So, he flew out and we beefed up, in fact, we called some other people in. Oh, and during this time, I was trying to teach the--the BIA police officers, and I've got some pictures here on the firing range--how to shoot. They did--were not very good. Also, I was trying to--to teach the tribal police. They had no uniform, to amount anything. They did not know how to use weapons, that sort of thing. So anyway I---we pulled a truck out on the firing range, and I used that as a platform, and then I was trying to teach them how to--how to fire weapons. Different type[s] of weapons, but most--mostly hand-held. [clears throat]Jesse Grider 44:16
So, we did do some training while we were there, the tribal police and--and the
BIA police. My boss--big Boss, then came in from Washington, and we beefed up because [the] rumors [rumor] was that they were going to take that building. And--or the information now, whether this came from the FBI or where I don't know, but the FBI was involved. Because they had statutory authority on the Indian Reservation. And everything was fairly secure, and we had gone back to the motel, which we were staying in Gordon, Nebraska. And the call came into the motel, to my boss that--the number two man at the marshal service, that the Indians were taking over Wounded Knee. Which was a little community on the reservation, but outside of Pine Ridge. And Pine Ridge was a little town of you know, it had a hospital, it had a---they manufactured moccasins, Indian shoes. And they had a big grocery store there, at the BIA building, so it was--it was sort of the county seat of the--of the reservation. And Wounded Knee was about, as I recall, eight or nine mile[s] out in the---on the reservation, but out eight or nine miles. There was a trading post there, I guess it was far tours, probably. A church, several residents, so it was a little community built around that trading post.Ethel White 46:23
How--how would, I don't mean to interrupt you, but how would the Indians take
over a village on a reservation? Was it not operated by their fellow Indians or was it.Jesse Grider 46:36
--It was under the control of the tribe chief of the--in the council of the
tribe and--.Ethel White 46:41
--Which is the one they--.
Jesse Grider 46:43
--The civil rights, yeah, and this Civil Rights Movements, those, supposedly
banks and that group just went in and took over the trading post.Ethel White 46:57
So, it was one group of Indians taking over from another, really.
Jesse Grider 47:00
From another, yeah, and it was, you know, they, evidently, there's---it was a
group of Indians that felt like that the tribe was sitting back and getting fat. The powers to be in the tribe, but the average Indian wasn't getting anything. You know, they were still going hungry or supposedly. And that they were depressed and suppressed, and keep them down in the low, depending on the tribe for everything that they got, I guess. So, anyway, we had a call, then my--the number two man in the Marshal Service, got a call that they had taken over Wounded Knee, and we immediately---he and I and another marshal immediately jumped in the car and went to the BIA Building.Jesse Grider 48:00
And from communicating with---I don't recall exactly how, but then we took off
out to Wounded Knee. We didn't go down in Wounded Knee, but in the general area. There was really one main road going through Wounded Knee. It was decided immediately that, you know, we could have gone in and--and removed them. And again, someone would have gotten hurt. So, we decided that we would seal the place off and not let any more get in there, than was already there. But you have to remember that that--in that---areas there are [is] just an awful lot of land, open land, and hills and gullies and so forth. And so, we got our people out and tried to surround it the best we could, with the people we had on. And then we started calling more people in and really secured the perimeter of Wounded Knee.Jesse Grider 49:15
We would catch people going in and trying to carry stuff in. We would, not let
anyone out or tried. And I'm sure there was [were] people that got in. They called a negotiating team in from main Justice. They would go in and communicate with the leaders. And we found out, for instance, that they would go in with a full tank of gas, and they'd come out with just enough gas to get them back out of there. Of course, there wasn't--we couldn't---we weren't letting gasoline into the place, they were siphoning the gas every time these negotiators would go in with their car. Now, whether the negotiators knew it or not, I don't know. We always referred to them as the 'do-gooders,' because they seem--always seem to have a tendency to lean toward the other side. I mean they were--.Ethel White 50:18
They, meaning the negotiators.
Jesse Grider 50:20
Meaning the negotiators. They were a section within Justice Department that, and
I guess they had done a lot of good in holding down violence. And whether it's even still in existence or not, I don't know, but if it was, you would have thought they would have used it in Texas, at Waco doing that thing. [clears throat] But anyway, we--and the ranchers there, of course, rent grazing land from the Indians, and they pay the tribe. So, I don't know, I never didn't know the financial setup, but they would pay them for so much an acre to graze their cattle on the--on the reservation. And these ranchers were all up in arms. Because, you know, here are their cattle, and they were slaughtering the cattle then inside for their food. And they would go out and get them and pin them up. They built bunkers all the way around the inside of the Wounded Knee. We built bunkers--.Ethel White 51:33
--By inside, you mean inside the town.
Jesse Grider 51:35
Inside the town--.
Ethel White 51:35
Not inside--.
Jesse Grider 51:36
--The community.
Ethel White 51:36
--Any building. Yeah.
Jesse Grider 51:37
Yeah. And we, in turn, built bunkers and dug trenches and so forth for our own
protection, around Wounded Knee. We got some personnel carriers--military vehicles in, some Jeeps and some personnel carriers and so forth, and--. The same type [of] equipment that the FBI and ATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives] got in--in Waco. [clears throat] It was bad weather, we had to get some military clothing because we were not equipped to handle that kind of weather and it---it would get awful[ly] bad.Ethel White 52:21
What month was it?
Jesse Grider 52:23
I don't remember what month, it was the wintertime, because--.
Ethel White 52:25
But it was winter?
Jesse Grider 52:26
But we really--I'm thinking around January, but I'm not certain of that.
February, somewhere in that early---real early spring to us here, which would still [be] wintertime out there anyhow. This was sort of a standoff for several weeks, and we manned our--we set up our schedule and got our perimeter secured and--and we leased a helicopter out of Denver to come up and be available to us if we needed it. The--my big boss came out, of course, senator from---Alvarez [James Abourezk (??)], or whatever his name--from out there was coming out. And representatives from---I guess, from the White House and Justice and so, it was a big political--political thing.Jesse Grider 52:26
Yeah.
Jesse Grider 52:26
Okay.
Jesse Grider 53:37
The decision was made then not to go in, that we were going to try to outwait
them, or negotiate with them and get them out peacefully. We did a lot of--we ate a lot of sea rations; it was almost like being back in the army. You know, you were in the field, except I had the privilege of going back to Gordon, Nebraska, to my motel [chuckles]. And Gordon, Nebraska was a very small town, and there was not just not there--wasn't [weren't] that many places to eat, but they were nice enough to open up their country club to us, so we could go up to the country club--and have a meal and a drink if you'd like. This went on for, I don't know how many weeks, it seemed like a couple of months, maybe. And I was there most of that time, I did fly back home for a week.Jesse Grider 54:36
We got in awful[ly] bad weather, a blizzard came in. You couldn't---you couldn't
get out, so we had people out there that we couldn't even get relieved, even the helicopter couldn't fly. My--the number two man and myself was [were] at Pine Ridge in the BIA building, and we wanted to get out to---the troops to just let them know. You know that you know, we were doing all we could to get them some relief and get them some---get back and get some rest and a---and I know whether it was U.S. News or Newsweek or Time, but some reporter had the blessing of [the] Justice Department to come out, and were to do whatever to assist them. Let him--be sure we didn't stop him from whatever he wanted to see or do.Jesse Grider 55:35
And my boss, the number two man, and I, were in a Jeep and we had no--we had a
top, but no sides in the Jeep. And we were going to go to--out to the field to assure the troops that we were--haven't forgotten them. And the reporter wanted to go, and he got up in the back of the Jeep. I was driving, and my boss was in the passenger side. And the wind and the snow was [were] so bad that I didn't think I was going to make it. The reporter says, "I can't make it. It's killing me." And I drove sideways, I sat sideways, so the wind would hit me in the back, and--instead of the side. Because it was coming on my side. And my boss sat with his back toward me when--to keep the wind from hitting him, and I kept patting my feet, I was afraid they were going to freeze.Jesse Grider 56:44
And luckily, we ran up on a grader, which was grading, but it was coming, you
couldn't tell. I was behind him, but you couldn't tell it even graded, it was coming so bad. And we stopped him and did get the reporter out and get him in the cab of the--of the grader, which was enclosed. And he was going to get him back to--was four or five mile[s] out, I think, and he was going to get him back to Pine Ridge. We went on up to where you turned off, this was a black top road. You couldn't tell at this time, and turned on, I think it was Denime (??) or something, road which, went out to the little old store out there. Well, the minute you turned left and went on that, then you were facing the wind. It was like a heatwave. And well, about a half a mile after you turn, there was a little grocery, so we stopped there and went in and--.Ethel White 57:41
---And it was, I'm sorry, but it was like a heat wave when you were facing the wind?
Jesse Grider 57:44
When you were facing the wind, because it's hitting the windshield and not you,
and so it was blocking, and it just, oh, just a relief, you know? But anyway, we got in, the little grocery and got warmed [up], then we went on up to--to our roadblocks. We referred to as roadblock one through six. I think we had six roadblocks out, and they were really not on roads the, so you know, but we referred to them as a roadblock. And then we were stuck there, we couldn't get out for a couple of days, and so we just sort of lived in the field. We would get in the personnel carriers equipped to handle about six or eight people, and so, you would get in there, and which, would get you out of the wind. There was no heat, but at least get you out of the wind.Jesse Grider 57:44
We had a--we had rented a recreational vehicle, and that was our field CP. And
of course, we had the--my boss, and I had privilege of utilizing that. So, we spent some time in there, and we kept communication with the Indian leaders in Wounded Knee, by CB radio. Which our CP was set up, where we had our own communication network, plus we had a CB where we could be in touch with the Indians. During this time, there was an awful lot of shooting back and forth on both sides. I don't know how it would start, but somebody would fire, and then all hell would break loose and be firing from both sides. And you were quite a distance, I would say, six or seven hundred yards between no man's land, so to speak, in between their people and ours. We did a---one of the evening[s], I don't know what time it was but we did.--There was a firefight going on, and I happened to be over at this--I can't remember what our roadblock was, three, I believe, with my boss, and we were firing into their bunker.Jesse Grider 58:41
And of course, they were firing at us, and then we had a call to--they requested
us to cease fire. They had someone wounded, and so, we ordered our people to cease fire and that they had someone wounded, which one of their Indians had been killed. They requested that they--we let them bring him out. And my boss agreed, but they could only come out roadblock one, which was the main entrance into Wounded Knee. So, he and I took off around to roadblock one and seemed like about two hours before they ever got him out. [clears throat] And when they did why they had him dressed in his war---you know, the feathers and the whole shebang. I don't remember what they call it their--?Ethel White 1:01:19
War bonnet?
Jesse Grider 1:01:21
Well--.
Ethel White 1:01:21
No.
Jesse Grider 1:01:22
---He was dressed in the whole shebang Indian--.
Ethel White 1:01:25
Warriors.
Jesse Grider 1:01:26
Warrior’s dress, whatever it was, the feathers and, you know, the paint on his
face, and he was dead, he died. I don't know that they ever figured out what happened, but there was no way, I guess, ballistically, if they tested every weapon, they could have found out which weapon that--it didn't matter that much, evidently. Then another occasion, as the FBI was sitting in a car, and someone came along and shot at him and hit him in the wrist. I don't think it was two serious, but--then my big boss, the director of the Marshal Service--. This had gone on for several weeks, and a lot of the districts were hurting because we had so many of their people drawn out of their districts, and they couldn't get their work done back in the district. So, he thought it was a good time to call some of the marshals out for a day or two, just to let them see what it was like and what these--what we were doing. We were not out there playing around and Marshal Grimes from Nebraska, which, I don't think, had any law enforcement experience, which a lot of marshals didn't have. As I think I covered before, they're political appointees and appointed for a four-year term and chief deputies on down or civil service and career people.Jesse Grider 1:03:09
Anyway, he came out---I was on--again, on the RB [roadblock] three, and he came
out the--my number two man at the Marshal Service flown---flew him out in a helicopter, and the helicopter landed on the backside of the hill. We our--- bunker was right on the peak of the hill, and there had been some firefighting back and forth. And he walked up to the peak of the hill, which he should have known better, or most law enforcement people would have. And a shot was fired, and he was hit. So, my boss and I ran up and drug him back to the---to the backside of the hill, and then all hell broke loose. I mean, both sides started doing a lot of firing and so forth. And we got him on the helicopter, flew back to--to Pine Ridge, to the BIA hospital, and later they moved him to Rapid City, or Denver, I've forgotten which. And he was completely--he was paralyzed, [clears throat] and I guess he had turned to--I don't recall exactly, to come back off the peak of the hill, which he shouldn't have been to start with, but he--and then--.Jesse Grider 1:04:30
[Tape cuts off]
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