Ethel White 00:08
It is now April 28th, 1994, and we're going to go back and just do a little bit
of cleanup work from the last session. You were talking about the Watergate hearings with John Dean, and you had mentioned Sam Ervin and Senator [Howard] Baker. And I just wondered if you had any particular memories about how either one of those men, anything that stands out in your mind about the part they played in the hearings. While you were sitting there next to John Dean, or if there's anything else about the sessions that--.Jesse Grider 00:49
--Nothing that--.
Ethel White 00:50
--Looms large--.
Jesse Grider 00:50
--I that can think of. The reason I was with Dean was for security purposes--.
Ethel White 00:54
--Right--.
Jesse Grider 00:54
--Of course, and--
Ethel White 00:56
--But you were listening to what was going on.
Jesse Grider 00:57
I was listening to what was going on. And of course, Senator Ervin was the
chairman of majority and Baker was the minority leader. So--.Ethel White 01:09
That's Howard Baker.
Jesse Grider 01:10
That's--.
Ethel White 01:11
---Right--.
Jesse Grider 01:11
--Howard Baker from Tennessee. And of course, it's like any of those things,
there's politics that each side is trying to protect their turf. And one side would ask the tough questions, I guess, and the other side would try to ask the easier ones. But--and it was just very interesting, and of course, it's probably one of the---now with the--President [Richard] Nixon deceased, and maybe there'll be more information that'll be able to come out now. Because I'm sure a lot of it was sealed, and whether the family will continue to fight in that or not, I don't know but.Ethel White 02:01
Now, skipping on to your time in the Virgin Islands, on St. Thomas [clears
throat] excuse me, in the early 1970s. When you met William Kuntsler, or you said he was the attorney for the defendants and--.Jesse Grider 02:20
--Right--.
Ethel White 02:20
--I didn't know if there was anything you remembered about him.
Jesse Grider 02:23
Not particularly. I mean, he--he [chuckles] just one of these---I mean, I have
known and been around other cases with Kunstler, so it was not my first time of meeting him or been acquainted with him. Because he had represented some other people during the Vietnam protest marches and so forth. And my--of course, my only purpose there was to set up the security for the--the defendants and the judge, and--and the jury. It was a sequestered jury, of course, and I set that up, and then I left. And normally, what I would do is go in and--and designate an individual as being in charge, and then we would go in [with] the entire plan and set up our security and what was needed and what wasn't needed. And then I would normally not stay. And occasionally I would if it was something of great interest, but I--normally, I wouldn't stay around. Because I--we may have five, six, eight or ten of these things going and I was fairly busy with this all the time.Ethel White 03:45
Well, if you worked with Kuntsler on different cases---
Jesse Grider 03:49
--Well, I didn't work--.
Ethel White 03:50
--How--
Jesse Grider 03:50
--With him--.
Ethel White 03:50
Well--.
Jesse Grider 03:52
You--he--[chuckles]--you know, he was on the opposite side, usually from what I
was on but.Ethel White 03:56
Poor choice of words, right. When you encountered him [laughs].
Jesse Grider 04:00
Encountered or had--.
Ethel White 04:01
--Do you--
Jesse Grider 04:02
--Occasion to be involved with him--.
Ethel White 04:04
--Right, but--.
Jesse Grider 04:07
--On different occasions.
Ethel White 04:08
Do you have---do you remember anything about the way he would operate or?
Jesse Grider 04:13
Well, he---I don't know how to describe him, really. He's very disruptive, I
would think. You know, type of person. It seemed like that he---his style was, the more noise he made, the more confusion he caused, the better off he was. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know. I have not kept up with his record all that close, but I don't think, and I'm not being critical, but I don't think he's won that many cases, really. When you sit there and look at the cases he's handled. But he just--.Ethel White 04:55
--Did you actually deal with him or just watch him, or neither.
Jesse Grider 04:58
Well, I watched him, and--and if there's times that I had some problem, then I
would talk to him about it, for security purposes. Maybe some of the defendants, or he was trying to maybe let him visit the courtroom, and which we would not permit, and so forth. And only that, it was a strictly business. I mean, I didn't socialize with him, or have a drink with him, or anything afterward, it was just strictly business. If there was a problem came up and I thought he could---could help with or I would discuss it with him, maybe. Haven't had---I never had any problem with him.Ethel White 05:44
Okay. And lastly, on the subject of the FBI Academy that you were asked to
attend and did attend. Two questions about that. One is you said you had written a term paper, and just for the record, do you have that term paper, still?Jesse Grider 06:07
Yes. Uh-huh.
Ethel White 06:07
It's still in your possession.
Jesse Grider 06:08
Yes.
Ethel White 06:08
Okay.
Jesse Grider 06:10
--A copy, I think they---they maintain an original of every term paper that's
written. It's indexed at the FBI Academy at Quantico. The time I attended, they were in the process of building the new academy at Quantico. The--a lot of hours of the training was done at the Justice Department. We would go to Quantico for three or four weeks out of the twelve-week course. [clears throat] And the--the I would have graduated in the 89th session, which was the session that J. Edgar Hoover, while I was in the academy.Ethel White 07:04
--What--
Jesse Grider 07:04
--Since then, they have built a new academy at Quantico, and it's--I went back
there for a refresher course, and it is a beautiful college campus. It's the most modern.Ethel White 07:23
Okay--we're having a little trouble with the tape recorder. I might just
interject here, so we'll keep trying.Jesse Grider 07:30
A lot of the professors from the University of Virginia taught there. And had
you chosen to go on to the University of Virginia, they would have allowed you twelve credit hours for the course. So, it was a pretty tough course. And, as I said before, it was for higher-ranking law enforcement officers. And it--included, I think, in my class, there was at least one ranking law enforcement officer from every state in the country, with exception of one. And something happened to [so] that person couldn't, plus about five foreign countries.Ethel White 08:15
Can--can you---this actually was my other question. You obviously were a
high-ranking officer in quotes if that's what the FBI Academy--that's who the FBI Academy invited. Can you explain a little bit about how you fit into this hierarchy in the marshal service?Jesse Grider 08:38
Well, at that time, I--when I had attended a twelve-week course of treasured law
enforcement investigator school in Washington. And I don't know whether I had covered this before or not. Upon graduation from that, the director's office wanted me to come by the headquarters, which I did. [clears throat] They wanted me to transfer to Washington and set up this court security program for it. I had, from the director of the marshal service to me, then they [there] were two people between myself and the director's office. And--. So, I you know---.Ethel White 09:41
--Who are these---.
Jesse Grider 09:42
--In--.
Ethel White 09:42
---What were the positions of those two, in between?
Jesse Grider 09:44
The Deputy Director of the U.S. Marshal Service, the deputy director, and the
chief of operations.Ethel White 09:49
Okay.
Jesse Grider 09:50
And I reported directly to the chief of operations or the Deputy Director. Then
later, when I came back to Kentucky, then [clears throat] there's ninety-five districts in United States Marshal Service. Each district has a United States Marshal that is a political appointee. He's appointed by the President of the United States, with the advised consent of the Senate. You're nominated by--the--to the Senate, and then they confirm you. Then you're marshaled for a four-year term. Now, I had no political pull, and I was the chief deputy that at the time, I had transferred back to Kentucky as the chief deputy marshal. And the chief deputy is the chief operational officer in the district. And so, I became chief deputy for the western district of Kentucky, which consists of fifty-three counties, out of one hundred and twenty. And from a line from Oldham County through Nelson County, and Russell County, all the way to the Tennessee line, and as far west as--following the Tennessee line, of course, to the Illinois and Missouri line in the far western point, and up the Ohio River to Louisville.Jesse Grider 11:23
So, it was fifty-three counties, and that appointment is for a four-year term.
And if the administration changes, chances are the marshal will be changed. I had career status as a chief deputy. So, when President--I was nominated and confirmed by the Senate under President [Gerald] Ford. And then when Ford lost the election, and then President [Jimmy] Carter was elected, my chances of staying why, as the U.S. Marshal would have been very slim. [clears throat] I had career status as a Chief Deputy U.S. Marshal, which meant that the justice would have kept me someplace within the marshal service as a chief deputy. And at that time, there was [were] only about three openings, and one was Memphis, Tennessee, Jackson, Mississippi and Miami, Florida. Then the courts asked---called me down, the chief judge at that time was Rhodes Bratcher (??) and Judge Allen. Judge Gordon had already taken senior status. And the judges called me down and wanted to know---they had--the chief deputy clerk had resigned. And wanted to know if I would be interested in becoming the chief deputy clerk. And I turned it down, after a few days of thought. And I turned that down.Ethel White 13:12
Now, chief deputy clerk--.
Jesse Grider 13:15
--Clerk for the western district.
Ethel White 13:16
Means clerk for the court.
Jesse Grider 13:17
Right.
Ethel White 13:17
Okay.
Jesse Grider 13:22
About a week or so after I turned that down, then Judge Gordon came into my
office one day, in the marshal's office, and said the clerk was leaving and that I should apply for that. And I said, "well, I'm not sure that I want to get out of the law enforcement," which I had been in for about twenty-three years total. Maybe a few days later, the chief judge called me back down, which was Judge Bratcher, and wanted to know if I would be--if I would accept the clerk's job. Well, this was a big move from law enforcement to strictly administrative work. And after giving it some consideration and discussing it with the family, the pay was better, and I agreed to take it. So, then I wrote the president, I wrote to President Ford resigning as a United States Marshal, for the Western District of Kentucky in January, effective, January 31. I had the letter back from President Carter accepting my resignation. Of course, it didn't get to President Ford in time, I guess, before the changeover.Jesse Grider 14:46
And so, I left the marshal service, the Justice Department. Then in [on] January
31st, of 1977 and on Monday morning, I was sworn in as clerk of the U.S. District Court for Western Kentucky. Where I stayed until I retired in January of 1994. That was a lot--that was a different ball game. I went for mostly male supervision--.Jesse Grider 15:18
[Tape cuts off]
Jesse Grider 15:19
--(??) Within the law enforcement, and you know, it was forgotten, and you go
and did your job, but with--the females, you had to clean your act up an awful lot. And plus, they had a tendency to cry when things weren't just right with them. And you know, if you had a problem with--with one, to call them in the office to discuss why, they felt like you were--. I don't know what they felt like, but the tears would start coming immediately, and it was just a different ball game. But I had no problems, and I had a lot (??) good people, a lot of them that---that I inherited, and then a lot---we were grow--we grew quite a bit in that seventeen-year period. And probably half of the people are a little better, that I hired after I became clerk, as we would grow. And another half, I inherited from the previous clerk. And most of the clerks in the country were attorneys, and there was only a few of us that wasn't, and I was one of those. In the Sixth Circuit, for instance, I think there was only two of us, and the southern Ohio clerk was not an attorney, nor myself.Jesse Grider 16:51
There's nine districts within the sixth circuit, and seven of those were
attorneys, and two of us wasn't [were not]. I--a law degree--now, I did have a young chief deputy that was an attorney and, which was a help to me. And a lot of times on the legal questions that may come up, [clears throat] but a clerk, it's really not necessary to have a law degree. Or I didn't find it to be because those legal decisions were made by judges, not by the clerk of the court. Maybe an attorney would be more help to the court as a clerk. Because they can, at the request of a judge, handle things that a lay person could, but I had no problem with it. It seemed to be--the court seemed to be satisfied and did not want me to retire. The present chief judge but I had some health problems, and I just thought it was time to go. I did a total service of thirty-eight plus years. And I finally called my chief judge, which he [clears throat]--the chief judge before him, which was Thomas Valentine, the chief judge before him was Ed Johnstone. I had made some noise about retiring under both of those [them] and they talked me out of it. When Judge Valentine then died, well, he resigned as chief judge, took senior status, and then Judge[ [Ronald] Meredith became the chief judge, and the chief judge is by seniority. [It] has nothing to do with qualifications, or whatever, and it's based on the date of their commission.Jesse Grider 18:46
So, Judge Meredith then became chief judge, and I had submitted my retirement to
him, and he threatened to tear it up if I didn't take it back. So, this was maybe a year and a half, and finally I--my health had gotten such and they couldn't seem to find out what was wrong. And I finally decided I had to retire. So, I called the chief judge, and we went out to lunch, and I told him I had to go. And it was a bad time, because he had some health problems and--but it was just something that I couldn't--I just couldn't operate at that time. So, he--they agreed, and we had a meeting with the other judges, and I told them the choices that I had on how I could retire, and I had over a year sick leave. I could have gone on sick leave for a year, but that would have not been fair to the court, without a clerk, you know, for a year.Jesse Grider 19:54
Or I could have given them two weeks’ notice and retired. And--but financially,
I would been better off and wait until January, and this was in like July of '93. And I said, "I will leave the court---the meeting and you judges vote." The clerk serves at the pleasure of the judges, and the majority of the judges make the appointment. The chief judge has no more authority than any district judge. He has a vote, just like the other judges, with the exception of a tie, and he would be like a vice president over the Senate. He could untie the vote. I told them I would leave, and they could vote on how they wanted me to do this, and they refused to let me leave and says for me to decide how I want to do it. And whatever I wanted is what they would go along with. So, I decided then that I would go in January, and that was fine--that. So, then they---they made the appointment at that time, the young attorney was the clerk of the bankruptcy court. And so, he was selected to replace me as the clerk of the district court, and--.Ethel White 21:20
And his name.
Jesse Grider 21:21
Jeff Aberson (??), very nice, young fellow that--was clerk of the bankruptcy
court for about ten years, I think. He's in his early 40s, I believe. So, January the second why, I retired and hadn't done anything since. [laughter]Ethel White 21:45
And your health is all right as it turns out.
Jesse Grider 21:46
My--they finally found my problem, which was a thyroid. And had I felt as good
as I felt now, I may not have retired, at least for another year or so. I--to be admitted to practice before the federal court, the clerk of the court has to sign a commission, and I had a son who was in law school. And I kept hoping that I could hang on, till he graduated and was admitted, so I could sign his certificate, but I was four--four months too--too late. So, planned that--not that it meant that much, but I just thought it would be nice, and he did too, that if I could sign his certificate of the minutes to practice before federal court, that's about it. I mean, I--.Ethel White 22:38
Let me ask you one more question, and then we'll come back to this later,
because I've got some other questions but. You talked about the transition from all-male supervision to mostly female. What about the transition from the more active, if that's the right word, job of law enforcement, to administrative?Jesse Grider 22:58
Well---.
Jesse Grider 22:59
--That was not too--because when a became a United States Marshal, the marshal
himself---the marshal also has a chief deputy marshal. In most instances, the chief deputy runs the district. The marshal is in so many instances, is just a figurehead. May or may not have had any law enforcement experience. It's strictly a political appointment, which is a bad system. I was the only one, and the first one that's ever become the marshal up through the ranks for the western district of Kentucky. Normally, they were appointing from outside of the service. The Justice Department was pushing me for the job. I had no political squawk with-- Of course, there was a Republican administration, two senators from Kentucky were Democrats, Senator [Walter] Huddleston, and Senator [Wendell] Ford.Ethel White 22:59
--How--.
Jesse Grider 24:07
I knew one congressman pretty well, and my family knew him and my--.
Jesse Grider 24:17
When you became the marshal.
Jesse Grider 24:17
--My wife's family, and that was Senator--Congressman Carter--Tim Lee Carter in
then, the fifth district. My wife's uncle was a circuit judge at that time down in that county, and he was very close to the congressman. And so, with his support, I fixed up my resume and flew to Washington and took it to the congressman's office and met with him a while. And he called him back three days later and said he had never had the opportunity to recommend anyone for a position with the qualifications that I had and that he was going to back me one hundred percent. So, that's how I became a U.S. Marshal. It was not because I had--this congressman, I had never voted for my life. Never lived in this district. He did suggest that since I lived in the--Gene Snyder's district, that I contact Congressman Snyder, which I did. He had no objections, or really hadn't given it any thought, [chuckles] I don't think and--but that he did agree that he would not object to me becoming a U.S. Marshal. So, I called Congressman Carter back and advised him of this. And Congressman Carter, being the senior congressman from Kentucky, at that time, a Republican, it was his call anyway. So, he--he was sitting in the chair that would make the nomination. And so, then the [clears throat]--the marshal, that was William B. Henderson, 'Big Six' Henderson, resigned, and then the courts appointed me as U.S. Marshal. [An] Interim appointment, which I served until I was confirmed---nominated by the president, confirmed by the Senate. That was in 1975, I think.Ethel White 24:17
--And that was--.
Jesse Grider 26:29
I became the head marshal.
Ethel White 26:33
So, your admin--you had had---are you saying that you had had administrative
experience as the chief deputy marshal?Jesse Grider 26:42
As the chief deputy, and---.
Ethel White 26:43
---That's where the administrative stuff comes in.
Jesse Grider 26:45
The administrative will come in. Now, my problem---and it was not my problem,
but I had been so used to running things, that when I became the marshal, you really should let your chief deputy run the day-to-day operation. I had a problem of letting it go because I had run it so many years that I---I just couldn't--I was involved. I was one of these people that came up through the ranks, so I knew. And where that worked fine is that the marshals that are appointed now, come in---aren then---would come in with no government---federal government background whatsoever. And be appointed because they happened to know someone. Now, they did--they know nothing about the marshal's office. So, this is good, as far as the chief deputy is concerned, with a person like this. Because they do know it, they worked their way up through the ranks to become the chief deputy. They know all the regulations and the procedures and a marshal, and it may be a sheriff of a little county someplace that's appointed.Jesse Grider 28:04
Well, presently, I don't know him, I've met him, the new marshal is a sheriff
from Hardin County, just appointed within the last month. I--as far as I know, he has no background with the federal government, but he was---sent to Ford's appointment. And--I'm not being---I'm not saying anything critical because I don't know anything about him. I'm just trying to explain how these things work. And the---the marshal under the Republican administration, under the [Ronald] Reagan and part of the [George H.W.] Bush administration was a former Sheriff down in Hancock County. You get some marshals or funeral home directors, of course [laughs]. You know, I mean, they have no background in law enforcement whatsoever. And it's just who has the political power to--that wants a position, and those positions are pretty good paying positions, I think.Ethel White 29:12
So, so how do you define the---the chief marshal's job? If the deputy marshal administers--.
Jesse Grider 29:21
--Figurehead---.
Ethel White 29:21
--The district.
Jesse Grider 29:22
Figurehead.
Ethel White 29:22
Really?
Jesse Grider 29:24
He's--he really doesn't know them majority of them, I would say. And I have not
kept up with it now for the last seventeen years, but.Ethel White 29:36
Do we need chief marshals or head marshals?
Jesse Grider 29:41
Well--.
Ethel White 29:42
--Strictly speaking?
Jesse Grider 29:42
Not really, I mean I--not clerks either. I mean, when you sit down, think about
it. --I've always thought that the ideal situation would be [to] have regional marshal[s]. Maybe one marshal for the circuit. Let's say the--Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, which Kentucky is--is one of the, what, four or five states--four states, I guess. Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Have maybe one marshal for that circuit, and then you'll have chief deputies in each district that would run this and flow through the marshal for the circuit back to Justice Department and the director's office in the marshal service.Jesse Grider 30:32
I mean, you know these jobs---I don't know what they pay now, but I'm saying
probably the marshal for the western district, is at seventy-five or eighty thousand dollars a year. Well, you have--you have ninety-five of those. Same thing with the clerk of the court, except the pay is higher for clerk of the court. Which, in my opinion--and I said it quietly when I was [chuckles] the clerk, but you know, they paid me over $100,000 a year. That's not a $100,000 a year job. I mean, I didn't give it back, [chuckles] I took it, but--I had said all along that I felt like it was overpaid. The marshal, some of them over the years, we had one the [John F.] Kennedy administration that was appointed and he--he owned a frozen food locker plant in Hardin County and had been mayor of E-town [Elizabethtown]. He had no--no knowledge or background in law enforcement whatsoever. The one I came to work under was the administrator of a hospital. He had no background and under the Republican--under the [Dwight] Eisenhower administration. So, it's not Democrat or Republican, it's--that's just the way their field, regardless of what administration is in. And that's that is a problem. A marshal does not have to have a physical, the U.S. Marshal. He can come in with one foot in the grave, so to speak. If he serves as much as five years under the old civil service regulation, he goes out with a pension. He could be in the--.Ethel White 32:37
--How good is the--.
Jesse Grider 32:37
--Same condition.
Ethel White 32:38
How full is the pension?
Jesse Grider 32:39
Well, it's based on your salary and number of years and so forth. You could be
fifty-eight years old and be appointed as a United States Marshal. At age sixty-two, you can retire under civil service. Regardless--five years or more so, but chief deputies and all deputies must take an annual physical.Jesse Grider 33:09
So, I mean, there's just a lot of problems with it that seems to me. And at the
few times there has been bill introduced and some pretty good support from some senators on taking the marshals out of the political arena and make them a--career positions. It is the only one that I know with the IRS [Internal Revenue Service], the ATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms], the FBI, the Secret Service. None of these are--heads are appointed by a political process, maybe in-house politics. You know, I mean, kissing up to the boss or something you might get--but as far as getting politicians involved in the appointment of the head of these agencies, they just didn't do them. The marshal is the only one that, in law enforcement.Ethel White 34:13
Do you have any idea how that got started? I mean, does it go back one hundred
years, or?Jesse Grider 34:18
Oh, it goes back from 1789, when the Judicial Act of 1789, and the first United
States Marshal that was appointed, was appointed with territory of Kentucky. The marshals are the--the oldest law enforcement agency in the federal government. I mean, it goes back to the old wild, wild west and Wyatt Earp and those people. Kentucky was, was a territory, and of course, part of Virginia. And when the first marshal was appointed, in the first act of 1789, and he was appointed for the territory of Kentucky. Then, when Kentucky became a state, and there was one U.S. Marshal for the state of Kentucky. In 1901, they split the state into two districts, the United States Marshal for the state of Kentucky, then became the United States Marshal for the western district of Kentucky. And he served, I've forgotten how long, but then he resigned and ran for Congress, and was elected to Congress from out in western Kentucky someplace. I have his--Muhlenberg County, I believe I have that information someplace.Jesse Grider 35:50
Then the eastern district of course was [has] been--headquartered in Lexington.
And so, in 1901, it became two marshals for the state of Kentucky. And--and that's happened in a lot of states. Some states only have--the district of Colorado. They only have the one district, which covers the whole state. Miami--Florida used to have two, and now they have three districts. They made a new one in Miami because Miami was growing so fast back in the--back in the early 60s, then it split off and it became a district--the southern district of Florida. And of course, Jacksonville being one and Tallahassee the other. So now, Florida has three districts. I guess Louisiana then was probably the last new district that came along. They had a western district of Louisiana, and the eastern district and Baton Rouge was just a division out of--of New Orleans. And so, the senators or powers to be decided that that was the capital, and it should be a district. So, it was made into a separate [district], so now Louisiana has three districts. And I think Kansas only has one district. Colorado has one district. California [has] maybe four districts. So, it varies from state to state. Tennessee has three districts. You know, Knoxville, Nashville, and Memphis.Jesse Grider 37:31
---I didn't mean to get carried away into the history of the marshal service,
but I had studied it a lot, and of course, grew up in it. And tried to collect as much of the information as I could on--. And I have all the pictures of the United States Marshals for the Western District of Kentucky, with exception of the first one. But I know where his picture is, and it's in a history of Muhlenberg County book at the Filson Club. I had talked to a lady in the marshal's office here and told her that--that I would be willing to donate that to the marshal's office, with those pictures if, if the marshal was interested. I hadn't heard from him, so I don't know whether he's interested in or not. He might be and he may not be, since these people are just in and out, so to speak. So, they may not have any interest in it whatsoever.Ethel White 38:38
Back to your position in the hierarchy. Just to, just to make sure that I
understand this, when you were put in charge of security, is there---is there anything between a head marshal, or whatever you call the marshal, and that job?Jesse Grider 38:59
No, well.
Ethel White 39:01
I mean, there's, there's no, there are no other ranks to go up through or anything.
Jesse Grider 39:06
Yeah, when I--what happened when--the director's office is made up of the
director and off of him IN the chain of command, you would have your different divisions. You would have your witness security division. You'd have your court security division. These were under operation, you would have your special operation group, which was a division within the operation section. --To get into that just a little bit, I have two other people.Ethel White 39:47
You have the director, and then you have the divisions under you.
Jesse Grider 39:49
---You have your division--.
Jesse Grider 39:50
--Your--your director, your deputy director, and then you have all these
divisions. The director of which, that was the director of the marshal service when I had transferred to Washington, was a fellow the name of Wayne Colburn from San Diego, California. He was a retired inspector in the San Diego Police Department, in charge of training. We had a training program in Brownsville, Texas, which at that time, was a border patrol academy. It's Harlinger [Harlingen], Texas, really, which is outside of Brownsville. There was a border patrol academy that was located there for training of the Border Patrol agents. We---with the approval of the Border Patrol, trained our people there. Wayne Colburn was-- became the United States Marshal in San Diego, and he was sent by the attorney general to observe our training in Texas. And he came over, and was impressed, I think, with our training and him being an inspector from the San Diego Police Department in charge of training, was well involved in training and knew what it took in law enforcement. So anyway, he--the director was General [Carl] Turner, which got into some problems, of the marshal service. And General Turner was indicted and sent to prison, over some guns.Ethel White 39:51
--Okay--.
Jesse Grider 41:36
Wayne Colburn then, was appointed director of marshal service. And after he
became director, he decided that we needed a SWAT team, or a special operation group, that we called them SOG. Three of us were the selected--selected to organize this thing. Myself [I], a marshal from South Carolina, a marshal from southern Florida, which was involved in the training in Texas. So, we, you know, we set up the special operation training in--in Louisiana. The State Police Academy in Louisiana, very tough training. Our first class, I think we--.Ethel White 42:44
--Physical type of training?
Jesse Grider 42:45
--Physical training, very first. Our first class, I think we had forty
applicants. we ended up graduated ten. So, we--they just some would make it one day, and others. And I think that's what's wrong with my knees now. We never walked; we ran wherever we went. Anytime you were outside the building, you ran. To lunch, from lunch to dinner, breakfast, whatever. Anytime you're on--and it was real[ly] physical.Ethel White 43:12
What did you model it after?
Jesse Grider 43:15
This I something we just came up on our own. We--had no--none at all the--we all
had military training, and I guess some of that probably went into our thinking and type of training. I was Army, one of the guys was a Marine, the other was a Navy. So, we had---that was three of us that was [were] the main cog in this thing, and we were all involved and--.Ethel White 43:46
And this was what year?
Jesse Grider 43:47
This was in 1971, I believe, '70, '71. Anyway, and then, we end up
with--after--over a period of a couple years, we end up with probably as good a SWAT team as there is in the country.Ethel White 44:09
This was a two-year program.
Jesse Grider 44:11
Well, we were training---
Ethel White 44:12
--Or did you move them in and out--.
Jesse Grider 44:13
--For two years to get our maximum strength, up to strength, and we--.
Ethel White 44:18
So, different groups would come and--.
Jesse Grider 44:19
--Come in for training--.
Ethel White 44:20
--For a few weeks--.
Jesse Grider 44:21
For a few weeks' training. We you had to be, you had to be able to leave within
twenty-four hours when called upon. It was really a great program, and still is.Ethel White 44:38
And how many people did you train in the course of those two years, do you think?
Jesse Grider 44:42
Well, we ended up with a force of about one hundred.
Jesse Grider 44:46
[Tape cuts off] [End of interview].
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