Jesse Grider 00:09
So, on a Sunday, we went over and introduced ourselves to Mr. [John] Dean, and
we were to take him before the committee. Furnishing protection, take him before the committee on a Monday, I believe, or a Tuesday, I've forgotten. The--sometime that week we were taking him before the committee. But on a Sunday afternoon, late, we took him over to the Senate Office Building to meet with Mr. [Samuel] Dash, and I. It seemed like there was someone else there. I did not stay in the room, or myself or the other marshal. We took him in the building. We took him to a particular office. They met--he met with Dash and maybe one or two other people there, some investigator, I believe. And we said in the outer office, and he had a townhouse there in Fairfax. And I'm not sure whether it was in Arlington or but in northern Virginia, downtown area. We intro--as I say, we introduced ourself [ourselves] to he [him] and his wife, Mo [Maureen] Dean, and we took them over before--to meet with Dash. And on a Monday or the early part of the week, we took him to the hearing--the Senate hearing that was chaired by the majority, Sam Ervin, Irwin I believe, is how you pronounce his name and [he was] from South Carolina [North Carolina]. And Senator [Howard] Baker, I know, was on the committee, as a minority.Jesse Grider 02:10
I can't remember--it would be on record who sat in it--who was on the committee,
but anyway, then I was with him for--. I found it so interesting, I didn't want to leave the detail myself, so I stayed on him for maybe all that week or a few days, and then--till I could line up a detail, and then I got off of it. Went on about my other duties.Ethel White 02:34
What did you find so interesting, or why?
Jesse Grider 02:38
Well, just with the--so many powerful people that were involved. I mean, here's
the President of the United States, and his council was--was giving testimony against him. Or appeared to be against him, and then just, you know, Senator Baker and Senator Ervin. That was the power or the most powerful people in the world involved, and it just--it was just historically, I knew would be great. And--.Ethel White 03:21
Can you describe some of these people, starting with Dean?
Jesse Grider 03:25
Very nice, cocky, a young fellow, very sure of himself. He was nice, but he was
distant. I mean, he's not like a lot of the other people that I had been associated with in that type of program. And he was very distant. He didn't just sit down and BS with you, this sort of thing. A few things I did notice, we were mostly in the den, which was their living--you know, the main living area was upstairs. And that Mo kept a calendar and--which was just laying [lying] there to be disposed of, I think. And just sitting there with nothing to do, other than watch TV or read or, you know, and secure the place. That I noticed on the calendar, and she had put the exact time that John would get home. Whether it was two o'clock in the morning or whatever, and she just made notations on that calendar. And I noticed that he did drive a new Porsche, and he had a new motorcycle in the garage. Just little things like that--that you noticed. And she was very nice, but cool. I mean, she would speak, but you really never carried on a conversation with them.05:08
Did you have any sense that he felt himself to be vulnerable or at risk? You
describe him as--.Jesse Grider 05:14
Yeah--.
Ethel White 05:14
--Cocky--.
Jesse Grider 05:14
I think he--he got the idea that he was going to end up being the gold in this
thing. And from just what little, talking to him, and what I could hear, and he decided that they were not going to make him the goat. And so, he just moved first, I think. I--and that's [a] typical situation, as you see two people that--commits a crime, and one gets scared the other one drop them in so, they talk first. And I think this is about the same situation.Ethel White 05:51
You mean, his reminded you of other--
Jesse Grider 05:54
--I didn't say--.
Ethel White 05:55
--Crimes that you had--.
Jesse Grider 05:56
Same, same thing, except on a lot higher level. You know, when you're--when
you're involved in the White House, and some--just power--most powerful people in the world that were being involved in this thing. And the attorney general at the time was [John] Mitchell, and President [Richard] Nixon. And of course, [Harry Robbins "Bob" H.R.] Haldeman, and [John] Ehrlichman and, you know, just these people that were just so powerful.Ethel White 06:29
Did you see or meet any of them?
Jesse Grider 06:34
I think I had, one time or other, probably had met them all.
Ethel White 06:38
Briefly.
Jesse Grider 06:39
Uh-huh. And so anyway, this--there was history will tell you what happened in
it. Now I didn't--Dean did later write a book called Blind Ambition, which, if you'll look in the book, and also on the cover, I think that there's a picture of him testifying before the committee, and I'm sitting behind him at the--on the security.07:13
Is that--did you--was it like, again, like any other witness protection you--you
were in his house all the time, and you were always with him.Jesse Grider 07:21
Right.
Ethel White 07:21
And you sat right up there with him.
Jesse Grider 07:23
Right.
Ethel White 07:23
In the hearing room--.
Jesse Grider 07:24
--Take him to hearing and sit in the hearing room with him. You just never know
when somebody could get in. Although security was awful tight, it was limited to space, but you were still concerned about him and getting him to the building and getting him out of the building, even there in the building. And--Ethel White 07:43
What--what were they afraid he was going to get shot?
Jesse Grider 07:46
Well--.
Ethel White 07:47
--What was the info--either the information--.
Jesse Grider 07:49
--It was--.
Ethel White 07:49
--Or the perception?
Jesse Grider 07:50
It was just a perception. I think that--I don't think there was any information,
but that they that, I guess Dash had requested it. And you know, if something happens to him, then the whole Watergate thing, I presume, would have just disappeared. Unless someone else had decided to---to talk. Then it just sort of--I didn't--I mean, I followed it, but I didn't have anything else to do with it after I left there. I put new marshals on and sort of ran the detail through the marshal, and I had no more contact with Dean or Mo or any of them.Ethel White 08:37
You were on it for what, several days, you said?
Jesse Grider 08:39
Several days. Yeah, I took him before the committee for two or three days. And
of course, at that time, I had other work that I had to do, and when I was gone out of the office, then I had no one to---I would call people in to cover my desk, but they were limited as to what they could do. And I was in charge of court security at the time, nationwide. And--which required an awful lot of travel and a lot of meetings with the Administrative Office of Courts, and you had the General Service Administration and the Postal Service. --And I--if I was gone, then all this sort of backed up and I could call help in, and someone could cover my desk day-to-day, but a lot of it they couldn't get into because--. So then, I just sort of went back to my regular thing. It was setting up security on federal judges or whatever the case may be.Ethel White 08:40
Before we leave this, let me just ask you about Sam Dash.
09:34
Very nic--I had known Sam Dash from the Boston areas [area] from the 60s, on the
[Frank] Barboza detail.Ethel White 09:53
But we hadn't really talked about---.
Jesse Grider 09:55
---He--.
Ethel White 09:55
--How he struck you.
Jesse Grider 09:57
A very smart fellow. I refer to him as a gung-ho type [of] guy. You know he; he
gets involved and he gives it all he has. I found it to be true in the Barboza and the little dealings that I had with him there during the--during the Watergate hearings. He had an assistant, [Edward] Harrington, I believe was his name, and he was also an assistant United States Attorney in Boston at the same time. And I believe Harrington may have been at the Senate on a Sunday when we took him over because they were very close. Harrington later, I think, became the United States Attorney in Boston. And is now in private practice. I had an occasion to run across him sometime, several years later, in some case or something.Ethel White 11:04
Do you remember Harrington's first name?
Jesse Grider 11:06
I cannot think of his first name to save my life.
Ethel White 11:09
Making it easier on the--.
Jesse Grider 11:12
--Yeah--.
Ethel White 11:12
--Person who listens to this.
Jesse Grider 11:16
Then, let's see the witness program. Then the--sometime in the early 70s, a
group of citizens in the Virgin Islands had gone to a country club and just started shooting people. And I know that there was one telephone guy up on the telephone pole, they shot him. I don't know why, he had nothing to do with the country club. He was out there working, and I think killed several people. And I don't remember how many was [were] involved in this, but six or eight people were involved in the shooting and killed several people. They were charged with the--with the murder. And of course, The Virgin Islands, it was a federal offense and would be tried in federal court. So, I was sent down to--to check security on where the defendants were housed, and also to set up security on the federal judge that was going to try the case. And his name escapes me at this time, I--I believe he was originally from Minnesota and had gone down there on vacation and just stayed and became a federal judge in the Virgin Islands, at St Thomas.Jesse Grider 12:45
The judge ordered these people to be put in a secured area, away from the other
inmates. So, we found an old jail there, in cooperation with the Bureau of Prisons and--. So, we secured that jail and kept these people in that--in that jail, away--no other inmates were there, and just--just these people, and they lived pretty well, I mean, they had TV, and they were entitled to their visits with their wives or girlfriends every so often. My wife and children went down with me on that, and they made a vacation out of it. And I'd work, and I think [William] Kunstler was involved and represented them and he was there---.Ethel White 13:45
--William Kunstler?
Jesse Grider 13:45
Uh-huh. So, I went on to set the detail up and--. I don't have these--some--so
much happens there. Then, I was requested to come back--staying by San Juan and do an investigation on the chief deputy. There had been a complaint filed on [him]. So, I came back San Juan for a few days and did that investigation and wrote my report up for the director of the Marshal Service.Ethel White 14:20
Now, when you say the chief deputy, you're talking about--.
Jesse Grider 14:23
--Chief--.
Ethel White 14:23
---Of the U.S. Marshals.
Jesse Grider 14:23
--Deputy of the U.S. Marshals. Uh-huh. There had been a complaint filed against
him, [clears throat] and I went in and investigated that. Made my report, and then I--so, I came on back to Washington?Ethel White 14:38
So, you didn't stay to actually help with the security on these--.
Jesse Grider 14:45
--No--no--.
Ethel White 14:45
--People in the Virgin Islands. You simply set it up and left.
Ethel White 14:47
Right.
Jesse Grider 14:47
Yeah--that at that point in time in my career, I was not pulling regular duty on
these details.Jesse Grider 14:50
I was just setting them up--.
Ethel White 14:55
--Right--.
Jesse Grider 14:55
--And getting them operational. This was going on quite frequently with a lot of
federal judges.15:06
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. Because I was not aware that federal
judges were being protected that long ago.Jesse Grider 15:13
Oh, yeah, this was--well, it had always been. Even though there wasn't a program
it had been the responsibility of the United States Marshal Service to furnish security for the courts. Then we would--and during the civil rights, for instance, movement in the South, why, we would assign marshals to the judges. If they had signed orders and which--for their protection. It was our--it's the United States Marshal Service's responsibility to carry out all federal court orders.15:51
So, but when you say you are in charge of court security, you--you mean at least partially--.
Jesse Grider 15:58
--Judge--.
Ethel White 15:58
--Security for judges--.
Jesse Grider 15:59
--Security of judges--.
Ethel White 16:00
--I didn't understand that--.
Jesse Grider 16:00
--And buildings and whatever. I--we would go in and survey a building and try to
secure it as best we can. But, you know, on moving the federal prisoners in and out of the buildings. Duress buttons for judges, wherever they could be if something happened, they could push a button. And it was set up in the marshal's office. We put in--I'm not sure a lot of this should be told, or at least for public, but in front of the benches, we would put in bulletproof fiberglass. That if someone in the courtroom started shooting, the judge would have some protection. He has a duress button under his bench that he could push and get more help immediately from the Marshal Service and other security--secured agencies. We put in--same is true in their office, their secretaries would have a duress button under their desk, and also the judge.Ethel White 17:16
Is that routine?
Jesse Grider 17:17
It's routine, and if there was, if they were at ground level, or roof level,
where someone's a sniper or something, could shoot through a window. Those situations we put in bulletproof glass behind the judges, and any windows in the judge's chamber that appeared to be of a threat. We've had details on judges here, like Judge Valentine (??). An escaped prisoner had made some degree of threat, so we put security on him for several--. This--I didn't at that time, because I was--already became the clerk of the court and was out of the marshal service, but the marshals put security on and--around the clock. And they'd bring him to work and take him home, had around the clock at home security. Had done that for Judge Johnstone (??). Of course, we did the big one that I--when I was a U.S. Marshal, was the--Judge Gordon's, when he was involved in the integration of the public schools in Jefferson County. And so, we kept security, and there was a degree of threat on him.Ethel White 18:42
And I think we ought to just interject right here that we [clears throat] you
have also already done tapes on school desegregation, on the guarding of Judge Gordon. And that they are in the archives at the University of Louisville. So, we will--.Jesse Grider 19:02
--Yes--.
Ethel White 19:02
-- -Gloss over that for these purposes.
Jesse Grider 19:05
And I think they--Judge Gordon, I think and the mayor and county judge, all were
interviewed on this, and I think they were taped and in the archives at UofL. I don't know, I think Judge Gordon's had his, that could not be released until his death. And, of course, he died three years ago, I guess. So, I'm sure they would be public now and I don't know.Ethel White 19:35
--They are public.
Jesse Grider 19:36
Okay.
Ethel White 19:36
Yeah, no, he didn't, he didn't--.
Jesse Grider 19:38
He didn't, oh--.
Ethel White 19:38
--Put any restrictions on.
Jesse Grider 19:39
Okay, so then--I don't know, I would travel all over the country and in setting
up the security. And when I first took this program over, there had never been anything written. So, I attended the FBI National Academy, and you have to do a term paper, and this was '72, I believe. And the FBI National Academy is handled by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and certain higher-ranking law enforcement officers are invited to attend their academy. I was invited to attend, and it was a three-month school, and one of the conditions are, to graduate, you have to do a term paper. So, I did a term paper on court security. There had never been anything written much on court security. And the only book that was available that I knew of, and I could possibly find was the Sheriff of Los Angeles County had written a book on court security. And so, I went out and interviewed him--or talked to him and picked up some ideas. I of course, read his book. I don't know whether I've covered that I went out to see this--check the security on the Sirhan Sirhan case. When he was--trial, just to pick up pointers and observe how they had handled it. Because it was, it was not a federal matter, and--.Ethel White 21:37
And so, this was---as part of writing your paper?
Jesse Grider 21:41
Part of writing and experience. And I--.
Ethel White 21:47
This was not federal, Sirhan Sirhan?
Jesse Grider 21:49
No--no--and then I think the results of that, maybe they made it a federal
offense. I believe the Senate [clears throat] then passed the law making any federal employee---or certain federal employees, it would be a federal offense. And I out to the Charles Manson trial.Ethel White 22:13
All at the same time?
Jesse Grider 22:14
No, that was, I can't remember which one came first, but and I went out and
viewed the security and--.Ethel White 22:23
But I mean, was this also--since I've forgotten the year. Was this also in
connection with your term paper or was this--.Jesse Grider 22:30
--No--no--.
Ethel White 22:30
--Generally, for your own background?
Jesse Grider 22:30
--It was just general for my own background and see what pointers. You were
constantly trying to educate yourself on what other people were doing or what was available electronically and this sort of thing that--.Ethel White 22:51
What did you learn from these two trials?
Jesse Grider 22:55
Well, I--on how they handled the defendants. In that court, the Charles Manson
case, as I recall, had a room off the courtroom, that had a--sort of a peephole in it, and he was very disruptive in the courtroom. And then the court would order it and put [him] in this room and leave this little hole open so he could hear and still see a certain amount of what was going on, but if he got too loud even through that hole, then they would just close that hole up on him. So, then we came up with an idea--or I did, and suggested to my boss that we buy equipment. Where, if we had a situation like that, we could put the individual on the next floor, if it had to be. And equip the attorney with a communicating device that he can talk to the defendant, and the defendant could talk to him, but no one else in the courtroom could hear it, by using earphones.Jesse Grider 24:06
And we would put a speaker in whatever room the defendant was in so, he could
hear what--everything that was said, when it was going on in the courtroom, but yet he would be far removed and would not be disruptive or what have you, to the proceedings. Now, we have used that here in the western district of Kentucky, since then. It worked out great, we went to a[n] electronic company, and they sold us a system that we were able to--we kept portable systems. Where we can fly them anywhere in the United States or in the country and have them available. We may have ten sets of them that we could actually operate ten Courts at one time in 10 different states, and be able to handle this, if necessary.Jesse Grider 25:13
Things like that that you just picked up that I could see there could be a
problem that disrupted and (??) and individuals. I think in Chicago, the Chicago Seven, I think, caused a lot of trouble in the courtroom. At that time, this was not available, things that you just pick up from experience and observing and try to solve the problem. And this was a great--I think, ideal for that type [of] situation. A defendant could not say that his rights were been violated because he could communicate with his attorney. He could hear everything that was being said in the courtroom, but yet, he was far removed and couldn't be disruptive to what was going on. These things you just, you know, study them. I would go to different showings. It's almost like all that you read about on a movie or video showings or game showings or electronics--people have these places set up. It's a business organization, and then they show the latest in their electronic devices and bugging devices or whatever you need, they can--. Or if they don't have, and some of them, you could go to them and tell them what you want, and they will build it for you.Jesse Grider 26:55
You know, it's just strange. For instance, at that, time the Cold War was going
on, and I think [Nikita] Khrushchev had given [William] Averell Harriman, the Secretary of State [Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs] a big clock/ A beautiful clock, I think, and for several years, the Secretary of State had that hanging in his office for about six years, and come to find out it had been--it was bugged [laughs]. Had no one's knowledge so, these things that you just have to--and, you know, in '70 then, I had the occasion to--. A lot of times, if the Secret Service was their--their responsible--one of their responsibilities is [to] protect the President of the United States and other candidates. And I think that came on after--the after [the] Robert Kennedy assassination. And so, now that if they're qualified under certain conditions, then the Secret Service also furnishes protections to the--to the candidates, a lot of times, they may be short. Since that only comes around every four years, they can't afford to hire agents for the other three--three years that they're not needed. So, they will call on other---other government agencies to assist them.Jesse Grider 28:31
And I had served some of that--assisted. And I know one time, Nixon came into
Louisville, and I was assigned to his room at the Brown Hotel. And he was campaigning, I found most of the people that traveled with him were very cold people. Which sort of blew my mind, because you were out trying to get votes, you would think the staff would be friendly and outgoing. Now that--whether they were that away or not, I don't know, but his--his crew, I thought was pretty cool to people like me. Of course, I guess we were [a] dime a dozen and too low on the totem pole to be bothered with. But we've--we voted; you know.Ethel White 29:20
Do [laughs] you remember any particular people?
Jesse Grider 29:24
Well, it just seemed like all of them. When a president comes in and you have
the room swept, they would say. And that's for any listening devices or bombs or whatever and that--once that room was swept, which means it's clean. There is no bugging device in it. There's no bombs hidden or whatever. Every employee that's working at the hotel investigated, and so once that's done, then that room is secured, and no one is to come or go in that room. I know I had one little run in with--I believe was--Ron Ziegler was his press agent at the time, and I was not to let anyone in the president's room, and the President wasn't there, but Ron Ziegler had gotten there before him and started in the room, and I wouldn't let him in. And he wanted--asked me if I knew who he was. And I says, "well, I know the name, and I know your position, but I don't know you." And he says, "well, I'm one that's cleared to go in the room." I said, "not--I don't have your name on any list to go in the room and you're not---I can't let you in here." And he was pretty upset about that, but he finally got another--the head of the agents, the Secret Service agent that came up and says, "well, he's all right, we can let him in." So, I let him in, but I was not gonna let him in but--.Ethel White 31:04
Was this--now this was when? Was this the first campaign. Was this 1968?
Jesse Grider 31:08
--I think--.
Ethel White 31:08
--'68, do you think?
Jesse Grider 31:08
I think '68, yeah. And you know, I had gone through the Secret Service school,
also, on VIP protection.Ethel White 31:21
Was that--.
Jesse Grider 31:22
--It was in Washington--.
Ethel White 31:24
--About that time?
Jesse Grider 31:24
That was a little bit later than that, I think maybe '69 or '70. I had to count
manholes and in Washington and windo--windows from buildings. And you know, one of the things that you do. And it was good training, because if you were--.Jesse Grider 31:52
[Tape cuts off]
Jesse Grider 34:17
That was mostly--.
Ethel White 34:17
Either--.
Ethel White 34:18
--Mostly--.
Jesse Grider 34:18
--At VIP protection, which was put on by the Secret Service, and that's their
big thing. They work government stolen checks, forward government checks. But their big thing, or their big publicity, is the VIP protection, which is the president and foreign dignitaries, I think. We had a group, and I can't remember, and I think it was the time Khrushchev came over and a lot of Russians. And I was involved in the secure---not--not that I was on the security detail, but I helped set it up. And I'd go over to the hotel where they--most of the VIP Russians were staying there in Washington. And just to check with the supervisor of the detail. And a lot of us being nosy too, because I wanted to see how these people were. So, we had security set up on them.Ethel White 35:26
Let me ask you if--it sounds as though a lot of stuff---a lot of this stuff that
was going on, was going on during the years when there were so many assassinations. Because, of course, [John F.] Kennedy was assassinating 63 and Martin Luther King in '67 1:00and Robert Kennedy in '60--maybe they were both '67 2:00. Kennedy was '67 or '68. Did--did these schools and training programs have anything to do with that or had they been going--.Jesse Grider 36:01
I--they had, of course, the schools, I would presume, that the Secret Service
had had schools for years. Training their people on the VIP protection, even though it was just--the main was the President of the United States and vice presidents, but I think it expanded after these things. I think the Robert Kennedy may been the reason that they--any candidate now that is a justified candidate--true candidate, is now offered protection by the Secret Service. I think the results of the Kennedy, but this is the results of the Kennedy assassination--the Bobby Kennedy. As I understand it, at the time that the President was assassinated in Dallas, and that was not a federal offense. And that's why he was in custody through the local law enforcement, and since then, it has become a federal offense. And so, they would be in custody the federal now, rather than the local. I mean, you know hindsight is always better, but I--that was--just seemed to me like a total mess of just bringing someone out, like they did him with all these people and through this crowd of people and so forth. That just was poor management on my--as far as I could see. Law enforcement, security, I mean, you wouldn't do that. Anybody that's--you wouldn't even do that if it was a bank robber, let alone someone that had just killed, maybe the next President of the United States, or had killed the President of the United States.Jesse Grider 36:01
--Well--.
Ethel White 36:01
--For some time.
Ethel White 37:56
You mean, even local officials should have known to--.
Jesse Grider 37:59
--Well, sure--.
Ethel White 37:59
--Handle things differently--.
Jesse Grider 38:00
--You don't--you don't--you don't bring someone like that out through that kind
of crowd, and not even screening who's in there. I mean, anybody can pick up a press pass. You know or steal one or whatever. When he was being--not out of there, there should be no time--if it should have been two o'clock in the morning or whatever, and no press release. And sometimes people get hungry for publicity, and they make mistakes. And that's just---that was an awful mistake, and I just can't imagine anyone doing--handling that the way it was handled. And I'm not being critical of the Dallas Police Department, but I'm critical as [on] whoever was responsible for moving [Lee Harvey] Oswald around, should have done better than to move him the way they did. Of course, any of these things is always [in] hindsight, and you can't totally secure anyone. I mean, even to see--that proves true with the assassination of the president or the shooting of the-- President [Ronald] Reagan, a gun shot at President [Gerald] Ford.Jesse Grider 39:17
I mean, anytime a person is out and there's that possibility. Luckily, that
there's only been the well, Kennedy but you know, got shot--that Reagan. I don't know how serious it was, other than what I read, but it could have been--just as well have been a deadly shot as any of the others. The shot on President Ford in Oakland or somewhere in California, wherever he was, that could have been, just as easily been a death, you know. But you can't, you can't protect people totally when they're out meeting with the public. And people in this country, I don't think, that the person could be elected, that--if they sat back in a bubble. You know, I mean, that's just the way it is, and there is some degree of security, and you just do the best you can. But I didn't think that that was--the Dallas thing was the best they could have done. I mean I just, at the time, that blew my mind. That--[to] think that they would bring him through all these people. And I mean, when you go back and look at the film now, they were just all around him. Anybody could have--could have shot him--it's my understan--.Ethel White 40:47
--Oswald?
Jesse Grider 40:47
--Yeah, you know, and I understand, and I don't know whether I mentioned this
before, that---that the FBI knew Oswald and pretty much kept up with his movement, but they had--did not, according to the Secret Service, did not pass that information on. And so, I understand now that they just overload the Secret Service with just tons of paper. Because they're protecting their, pardon me for saying it, their rear end. Because they're--they were going to say, "well, we gave it to you." Well, it would take five hundred days just to sit down and go through all this paper that the bureau's now sending them. And it's--but now the FBI, I guess, is protected. They said, "we sent it to them and--."Ethel White 41:39
Do you remember, aside from your own reaction about the poor security on Oswald,
was there any particular way in which the Kennedy assassination affected the Marshal service, even though you weren't in charge of that?Jesse Grider 41:54
Well, I think what happens is that anything something like--anytime, something
like that happens, then you--security will tighten up everywhere. It's--and then if you're not careful, and then after period of time, it starts relaxing. Because nothing has happened, and you know, it's--it seems like it takes something like that to happen, and then all of a sudden, everybody, the federal judges in Western Kentucky, it's a serious matter, but they sort of laugh about it. Because they had a person in Owensboro that had threatened the President of the United States and was convicted. He was found in Compton (??), I think, and was sent to Springfield, where there was a study and observation. Springfield, Missouri, which is a[n] institution that--it's a hospital. Normally people who go there have some sort of problem, either medical or mentally or something. And they have a psychiatrist, so the courts can send people there to get evaluation on their mental condition.Jesse Grider 43:11
And this guy, anyway, came back, and I guess it was probated. I don't recall. I
mean, it's--hadn't been that long ago, but I don't recall exactly what happened. And he came in the building in the courthouse in Owensboro, with a pistol, to the probation office. And he pulled the pistol out, and I don't recall exactly what happened, and he and the probation officer---then either the probation officer was trying to talk him out of doing anything foolish. And the gun did fire and hit the wall, but the court security guy in Washington, I think the probation officer, Ron Smith, hit the button--the duress button. The court security guy come [came] running up if he did get the gun away from the guy. There was--there was no electronic devices or anything in our court in Owensboro. But because of that, it really tightened up in the courthouse in Louisville--the federal courthouse. So, the judges would laugh, you know that you can have an instant in Owensboro--hey don't do anything in Owensboro but with they tighten the security in Louisville [chuckles]. So, it was sort of a joke around. They have since corrected that, and they do have better security at Owensboro, which but it was true that--. Of course, we did not have a resident judge in Owensboro, and the judges would only go there to hold court. Sometime[s] a couple of three weeks or a couple of days or just one day. It's according to the caseload. But they all laughed about, you know, here I'm--all this tight security in Louisville, and I go down to Owensboro in court and don't see anybody. So, you know, no security at all, or Bowling Green, or Paducah, but they have since corrected that, and they do have security in---all federal court buildings now.45:24
I wanted to ask you about your relationship with Robert Kennedy but before
I---before you speak to that, did you ever know John F. Kennedy?Jesse Grider 45:35
I met him. It was a funny situation, really. He flew in--he was coming in
Cincinnati on some political thing. And the agent in charge for his advanced detail was a friend of mine, with the Secret Service, an old acquaintance. Had been here in Louisville and I'd gotten to know him and transferred to Washington and became the advance man for the--President, Kennedy. An advance man, he goes out three or four week[s] ahead of time and gets things set up, in charge of the security, with local law enforcement and so forth. And the president was flying into Covington (??) that was about the time Ole Miss had just erupted. And it was a few days after there was no longer any big threat at Ole Miss, but it was just within that few days, one way or the other. And the President flew into Covington, the Greater Cincinnati Airport. And was going on---they would take him [to] downtown Cincinnati for some speech or something. And the agent in charge of the advanced detail, then--had invited me up.Jesse Grider 47:01
And so, we went up, and he introduced me to his pilot, and his pilot took me
through his plane. And you know, the president--Air Force One, and I was just nosey as to how things---how the President of the United States lived on an airport, it's amazing. And I'm even--look in his medicine cabinets, you know, to see what type [of] toothpaste he used Just [coughs]--just like a tourist, I guess, and then the president came back and the agent in charge then introduced me, and they--he called him boss. I don't know whether all agents did, or whether it was just this agent. And Jim Johnson, was the--was the agent charge. He later came back to Kentucky as the agent in charge for the Kentucky and has since retired, now lives in Hilton Head. Anyway, he introduced me to the president--and the president, and he introduced me as a U.S. Marshal from Louisville. And he said--and the President said, "I thought all you people were in Mississippi." And he realized what he said and immediately looked around [chuckles] to be sure there wasn't any press close back, which there wasn't. And--.Ethel White 47:06
--Which there was--.
Jesse Grider 47:55
--There wasn't any.
Ethel White 48:32
Oh, there was none.
Jesse Grider 48:33
No, that could hear the--his remark.
Ethel White 48:37
Now---.
Jesse Grider 48:37
--But anyway, he shook my hand and--.
Ethel White 48:39
--Now what was--what was wrong with that remark?
Jesse Grider 48:42
Well, I don't know, I guess just the president shouldn't be now talking about
Mississippi, you know, Ole Miss at the time. I don't know, but evidently the new word is--or that evidently it wouldn't have been political[ly] correct at this time--at that time. So, I don't know, but he immediately looked around. That was my only occasion of ever meeting him.Jesse Grider 49:08
[Tape cuts off].
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