Oral History Interview with Jesse Grider, March 24, 1994

Jesse Grider 00:09

And of course, this was at the beginning of the end of the Vietnam War, and there was [were] an awful lot of protesters and indictments and so forth, and--and problems in federal courts. Where these people would be hard to handle, you know, as your average defendant, or disruption--more, I think, than threats. Such as surround buildings and handcuff themselves together, or, you know, try to get in the building in the courtroom and make as much noise and disrupt the court proceedings and [as] possible, and an awful lot of threatening. You know, we had the great March on the Pentagon and during the Vietnam and that went back before the court security. Because I was at the Pentagon, and I had about forty marshals on my particular side. And my job was to make sure that the heliport section there by the Pentagon stayed clear. So, we could get helicopters in there, if we had to have more help. And the military was surrounding the Pentagon, but we were there as marshals to make any arrests. Military courts could not make--arrest civilians. They could detain them but could not arrest them. They [There] were thousands of these people and all sorts of threats of bombing the Pentagon and all this sort of thing that--.

Ethel White 01:58

This was all during the march?

Jesse Grider 01:59

This was all during the march, and we--I've forgotten how many marshals we had in there, but several hundred and--.

Ethel White 02:10

But you were there.

Jesse Grider 02:12

I was there, yeah.

Ethel White 02:12

And this lasted for a day. I mean, how long.

Jesse Grider 02:15

--It lasted a day, all night, into the next day. I--it seemed to me like I was there about seventy some hours of without any sleep at all there, at the Pentagon. we made some arrests. But--.

Ethel White 02:39

Can you, can you describe this march? I mean, were you there as this--.

Jesse Grider 02:45

--These--thousands.

Ethel White 02:45

--People were protesting.

Jesse Grider 02:47

--Thousands of people, far as you could see, you know, and it was just--.

Ethel White 02:49

--Where did they come from?

Jesse Grider 02:51

--Just from all over.

Ethel White 02:52

--But, I mean, what direction were they--. ---Everywhere--.

Jesse Grider 02:52

--I don't know. Well--.

Ethel White 02:55

--Coming from both sides.

Jesse Grider 02:55

--They had them come down the river. We had them come across the 14th Street Bridge. We had them coming from the Virginia side. They were just all over, I mean, just, I've forgotten how many thousands and maybe--. At the time, I think I read where they were--had 40, 50, maybe 60,000 people there. So--

Ethel White 03:16

Do you know--.

Jesse Grider 03:17

---But our job was to keep them out of the Pentagon, that they were not to take over, disrupt the operation of the Pentagon.

Ethel White 03:24

Did they try to get into the building?

Jesse Grider 03:25

Oh, yeah, and I never will forget that one--in fact, I tore my hand up because Dr. Spock, the famous baby book [chuckles] writer was high--big in his demonstrations. He and his wife both and he laid down and tried to block an area, and we were dragging him out of the way, and my hand was under him, and it got drug on the blacktop. And--

Ethel White 03:54

What was he trying to prevent.

Jesse Grider 03:56

Prevent the in and out movement into the Pentagon he laid--.

Ethel White 04:01

Of the military.

Jesse Grider 04:02

Of the military or anyone that wanted to go in the building. They just laid down and was trying to block all the entrance. Of course, we it had completely surrounded by the military and marshals.

Ethel White 04:13

But--but others were actually trying to get into the building.

Jesse Grider 04:15

Oh, yeah. And

Ethel White 04:15

Is that right.

Jesse Grider 04:16

And we had lines--. I never will forget the one little girl that--they had a lot of the flower--.

Ethel White 04:17

--Any successes?

Jesse Grider 04:17

No, I mean, you might have one that would break through. And then a lot of the flower--I don't know whether this proper to put on tape or not, but the military people, and they were young, and I thought they handled it real[ly] well. Because the--most of them had a certain section, and they had a lieutenant behind the line that would normally say, be in charge of thirty troops. And he walked back and forth watching his troops. And when it looked like someone needed relieved or it was getting to him, he would replace him. Of course, he had some reserve back in the Pentagon. In fact, there was [were] several hundred military people in there that were--was prepared to come out if we had to have them, plus we were keeping the heliports ports open to fly more in if we needed them. Including Marshalls if we had to have--. --Children, or whatever they were, and they'd walked around, and then the military would have handled it. I thought, being young military kids, and they were at that time so, a lot of these girls would walk down and put roses in the barrel of their guns, and they were standing there to parade rest, you know, with their weapons. And then one, she's a cute little girl, she was dressed, I guess you'd call hippie stuff, but she was very attractive. Couldn't have been over sixteen, seventeen years old, I wouldn't think. And this little soldier was not much older, maybe nineteen, and she put a rose in his barrel--his rifle, and he was sweating a little bit, you could tell he--. And then she sat down at his feet and was rubbing his leg. And [laughs] so, you could really see him start sweating then and the lieutenant, after about five minutes why, he replaced him, moved him back. And you could see the kid was glad to get off of it [laughs]. And it was amazing that these, these young people, would do that, you know? And I mean, she was not rubbing around his ankle, either she was getting close to the private areas. It was really disturbing the young soldier.

Ethel White 05:20

--Children--.

Jesse Grider 05:41

And then we had--we spotted the leaders. We could tell who--they were running around and getting people to do--whispering to them or telling them--giving their instructions, I guess. And so, what we'd try to do is spot them. And once we spotted them, then we would put out the word, you know, the guy in white shirt with the red hair and, blah, blah, blah seems to be trying to organize something to get him going. And so, everybody would start--in that particular area would start watching him. Well, this scared the hell out of him, because then we would start pointing. And then you might walk over--. --Yeah, you'd walk over to three or four marshals and say something to him, point at him. Well, he didn't know what we were saying either. So, he knew he was being eyed, and he--after a while, he sort of disappeared. You didn't see him much anymore, and this went on.

Ethel White 07:36

--Deliberately? Did---you know who to watch for ahead of time?

Jesse Grider 07:54

No.

Ethel White 07:54

Or just, you just watched how they were--.

Jesse Grider 07:56

Well, we knew because there was a lot of well-known people. I mean, like Dr. Spock and, you know, my God, he--we raised our children with the Doctor Spock book. You know so, everybody knew Dr. Spock and his wife and a lot of other people. And there was a lot of planning in this thing, you know. I mean, we had--.

Ethel White 08:15

--On their parts or your parts? You were not making those kind[s] of plans?

Jesse Grider 08:16

No, on our part and on theirs too, I presume. But you know, we had to have a place to--. If we made thousands of arrests, we had to have a place to put these people. We had to have court officials there to get them before and we had to have United States attorneys there. We had to have United States magistrates there, to get these people before a judicial officer. We had to have a place to house them, lock them up, Bureau of Prisons was there. So, it was not a--I was on the ground operation, but I was not at the top of the Justice Department when they were getting this thing organized. You know, what are we going to do if we have to arrest ten thousand people. Where are we going to put them? I was not making those kind[s] of plans, no. My plans were on the ground operation and my area that I was to do whatever's necessary to keep anyone from crossing that line and getting in the Pentagon and blocking that heliport.

Ethel White 09:29

But then you had to know what the plans that had been made on high were, so you--.

Jesse Grider 09:34

--Oh, yeah--yeah.

Ethel White 09:34

--Knew where to--

Jesse Grider 09:35

--Oh, I knew--.

Ethel White 09:35

--Send these people, right?

Jesse Grider 09:36

Yeah, no, I knew.

Ethel White 09:37

You had communicated with the--.

Jesse Grider 09:38

--Yeah.

Ethel White 09:38

---With the Justice [Department]--.

Jesse Grider 09:39

We had Bureau of Prison busses there, and so, that we could arrest and--. And what we would do is take, we had put cameras there to--so the marshal could00if a marshal had to make an arrest, we would get a picture of the defendant and the marshal together. So, we'd know that, yes, I arrested this dude, here I am with my fetcher (??) with him, you know. ---And what he arrested him for, and we had--of course, had to have arrest of slips and so forth to, you know, what did this individual do? We had to be prepared to, later, to go into court if it was necessary to testify that that I did arrest him, and this is what I arrested him for, and this is the person I arrested. And that's why we needed the picture. Because you get in a mass arrest like that, it's, it's awful hard to remember each one you may have arrested and so forth.

Ethel White 10:41

And were there a lot of arrests?

Jesse Grider 10:43

Quite a few, and I mean it was mostly misdemeanor stuff. It was nothing that serious, but--.

Ethel White 10:49

--No violence or anything.

Jesse Grider 10:50

No--well, we had some--.

Ethel White 10:51

--Some--.

Jesse Grider 10:51

--I mean, we had some marshals. A friend of mine that has since retired was on the line. He had a tie, we all had coats and ties, which, at that time we didn't have any uniforms for that. And most law enforcement do not wear--tie ties. You know, they slip on. But he had a tie town, and somebody got ahold of it. But you couldn't get out of it. Well, that's like having a noose around your neck, you know? And he should have known better, but he didn't. He had a regular time and they--it really caused him some problems, until we can get in there and get him out. And they were roughing him up pretty good, but he admitted we got it him out of it.

Ethel White 11:44

What kind--were these students. I mean, what? What kinds of people--. --Well, I don't know who they were--. --Were roughing them up. You don't know.

Jesse Grider 11:48

I mean, they just--thousands of people, you know--. Yeah, they're all old, young, middle aged, these flower children. Just all different shape, forms, and fashions and, I mean, it was just a wall of people. Anyway, after--then I left--I was there for--I checked in a room, somewhere in Virginia. I spent one night in that room, and I think I had to pay for three nights. So, I--and that was the last night. And I left there and did not get back home. I went from that on to a witness protection in Boston, Massachusetts area.

Ethel White 11:51

--Different ages and--. And you--now you were still, I was trying to put this all together. You were still running this security?

Jesse Grider 12:50

We had, yeah in the court--.

Ethel White 12:52

--Program.

Jesse Grider 12:53

--Security, I was involved in--.

Ethel White 12:54

Okay.

Jesse Grider 12:54

--Still even, though I was in the court, security, I was still sent out on these other things. Witness programs, you know, we--well see, that happened before I went to Washington, or the Pentagon. That was in about '68 or so, I wanna say. I didn't go to Washington--.

Ethel White 13:15

--Oh, okay.

Jesse Grider 13:15

--Till '71. I got my--.

Ethel White 13:18

--Okay.

Jesse Grider 13:18

--Stuff mixed up there a little bit, I think.

Ethel White 13:20

Okay.

Jesse Grider 13:23

And '67, '66, somewhere along in that--that was when the big Pentagon I left there then, three of us, in fact, left there, going to Boston. Because we had a witness up there that was testifying against the New England mafia, and they had, they had promised he and his wife and child secure protection. And he was in protective custody, so I was going up there and furnished protection or security for him for two or three weeks before I would get back home. And which we did, and then that thing went on for about two years. I'll probably get back into that a little bit later. Because we moved him to Kentucky.

Ethel White 14:18

The witness. Okay, but--.

Jesse Grider 14:19

--The witness program. But when I left the Pentagon, I went on to Boston and--over a witness pro.

Ethel White 14:26

Well, you've got some--don't you have some things to say about that.

Jesse Grider 14:30

Well, yeah--.

Ethel White 14:30

--That particular time--.

Jesse Grider 14:31

--But I'd like to get back to that because there was other--. --Stuff.

Ethel White 14:34

Okay. --We'll hold that then.

Jesse Grider 14:36

--Yeah, that was involved. But when I left the Pentagon, I did not come back home, I had to go, and I know I was--death had a deadly cold. And we were driving the three of us, I think we were going in three different cars. We all three had our cars at the Pentagon or drove to Washington before that. And we--we drove to Providence, Rhode Island, and spent the night, and I was--had a deadly cold, and then the one the guys, says, "well, I've got some Contac." Well, I'd never taken any Contac, which I did, and I didn't even go out to have dinner. I just went, and took my Contac, and went to bed. And course, I hadn't slept much anyway, in three or four days. So, the next morning, I got--and I was feeling fairly well. So, we went on to Boston, Massachusetts, and find out the witness was not in Boston. He was on an island, off of Gloucester, Massachusetts, which is a fishing town, thirty or forty miles north of Boston, I guess. So, I went on out there and stayed for three or four weeks then came back home. So that got in that--I got that ahead of some other stuff that I was involved in. Gosh, I came back. I don't know--remember when the Martin Luther King assassination was, but they were trying to get a hold of me to send me into Memphis. Again, I think I was out west someplace, so I did not go to Memphis. The [Jimmy] Hoffa trial, I do not remember what year that was. Then, I spent, I don't know, six or eight weeks in Chattanooga.

Ethel White 16:50

Was there for (??).

Jesse Grider 16:51

I was more or less a--I [clears throat] did a little bit of everything, but I was more or less a liaison between witnesses and the court. I would see that the witnesses were taken care of, a secured place, see that they had food and pocket money. I also spent a couple of nights living in the judge's house because of security for him.

Ethel White 17:31

Who was the judge, do you remember?

Jesse Grider 17:35

Wilson? Judge [Frank] Wilson. [Tape cuts off] So, I was doing a little bit of everything. I spent a night or two in Judge Wilson's house. They had a regular local marshal assigned to him, but for some reason, he had to be out of town, so I relieved him. And I would spend a night at Judge Wilson['s house] in their guest room. And take him home and bring him to the courts in the mornings.

Ethel White 18:05

And there had been threats, you said?

Jesse Grider 18:07

There had been threats, and I don't know, recall by whom. And then--and when he was in the building, I would be sure, and be around this chamber and library and that sort of thing. And a few times, I would go over and--to bring the jury. The jury was sequestered, and a few times, I would go over there and bring the jury to the court, along with other marshals. And I know Hoffa was always giving us a bad way to go and calling us 'Kennedy's Goon Squad.' And--. I just did a little bit of everything, security, witness security, judge, security, jury security. After the jury had--and some of the interesting things. I've forgotten what attorney it was, but he would want to use the judge's library. And so, I happened to be in the library, which was adjoining the judge's chamber, and wasn't sure I saw what I did. And the guy was looking up some law and when he found what he wanted, he just tore the page out of the law book. Well, you're talking about $56 law books, you know. So, I--.

Ethel White 19:46

--Did you ever say anything?

Jesse Grider 19:47

--I mentioned it to the judge, and he says, "well, next time he goes over there, you watch him and see if we can catch him doing that." But anyway, the attorneys---Hoffa's attorneys were pretty nasty and foul-mouthed people too. I know as I started in the courtroom on the side entrance, which was really the judge's entrance. Well, Hoffa would do these things just for damn meanest. He knew he wasn't supposed to use that door, but he'd make a point to go out that door. And one day I was going in as he was coming out. When he called me some sort of name and so, I didn't say anything, but I know I'll get him sooner or later. So, another time, maybe the next day, or a few days, he--I was going in the same door, and he was coming out, and I call him a bastard. And he turned around, he was a cocky little bastard anyway. And he turned around and looked at me, and I just kept walking. And of course, I didn't know if anybody had heard but me and him. [chuckles] So anyway, he eyed me all the time we were there then and, but he never said anymore, to me. And so then, I--it was one funny thing that happened, and I even thought about it at the time. There was a Black witness, female from Detroit had flown in. I met her at the airport. Checked her in the Holiday Inn in Chattanooga, out on [U.S.] 41 which, before the interstates, you had to drive right through Chattanooga, practically. Going to Atlanta from the airports. This was a main route into Chattanooga, and I checked her in. And of course, she didn't have any money, so I gave her a little money, and I had the cash that was furnished. And I thought, well, I got to feed the lady, and she was a fairly attractive Black lady. And so, I took her down to the dining room at the Holiday Inn. And I'm thinking, here I am sitting in Chattanooga with a Black female and made from a small country town of Glasgow. And somebody walked in here that knows me and sees [chuckles] me sitting with--out of town and having dinner--was at the Holiday and with some Black girl. And sure enough, they did. And of all things the happened, and I spoke to them, they never came over to the table and happened to be some people from my hometown. They've never mentioned it to this day, nor have I. I didn't try to explain or any[chuckles] but I did come home and tell my wife what had happened. Anyway, after the jury then reached its verdict and Donnie Forrest, later became the United States Marshal in Miami, and I were--the judge put Hoffa in custody. Set his bond, I believe, at a $100,000 cash bond, and put Hoffa in custody ---Donnie Forrest, marshal out of Miami and myself took Hoffa into custody. And took him back in the marshal's office and put him in a holding cell. He wanted to use the phone. His attorneys came in and talked to him, and they wanted us out of the room. We would not leave. And he says, "you refuse to get out of this room when I'm talking my damn attorneys. My God, that's a violation of my rig--." He's just cussing and breaking stuff. And we just smile and go on because we--were not going to let him out of our sight. So, his--the attorney, we would not even let him use a telephone. We let him--used through his attorney, but the attorney then went into Judge Wilson. And Wilson sent the word back to let him use a telephone. So, we did, and he called, I don't know whether he called Detroit of a Teamsters Union in Washington, wherever he called and he wanted that $100,000 there, and he wanted to meet with them, by Western Union. And whoever was--we didn't listen to them on the phone conversation, other than his part. And he said, "My God, it better, but here in fifteen minutes." And so, we locked him back up in his cell. In fifteen minutes, no word from nobody, and he wanted to use the phone again, and we let him out, and whoever he talked to, he says, "I won't that damn money, and it better be here in five minutes or there's gonna be some damn heads and roll when I get back up there." Well, there wasn't five minutes till Western Union, called and said they had the $100,000 So, anyway, it was delivered, and he made his bond and went out and giving us--Donny Forrest and me a hard way to go all the time. But, you know, "I'll get you bastards or words that effect." And I know either Donnie, and I don't recall what I said it, or Donnie did. When we had gotten that word, I-"-you're going back in that courtroom. You're threatening my life," and his attorneys are trying to get him out, of course. After the--after he made his appeal bond, he filed a motion of appeal to me---. If anybody needs an appeal, that's what his $100,000 is for his appeal bond. The judge then set a hearing date for a couple of his attorneys, and Judge Wilson did a beautiful job in that trial. Things went on that--I it would be hard to--.

Ethel White 26:05

--I just need to understand this--this was not money that he could be released on--.

Jesse Grider 26:11

--Yeah, this was--.

Ethel White 26:11

--It was--.

Jesse Grider 26:12

--This was for bond money.

Ethel White 26:13

Okay, because you said it was for an appeal bond. So, I--.

Jesse Grider 26:16

--Yeah--yeah.

Ethel White 26:16

--But he did get--.

Jesse Grider 26:17

--He put up--.

Ethel White 26:18

--Free--.

Jesse Grider 26:18

$100,000 with the clerk of the court in Chattanooga--.

Ethel White 26:21

--Okay.--

Jesse Grider 26:21

--For his bond.

Ethel White 26:22

And he got free.

Jesse Grider 26:23

He got free.

Ethel White 26:23

Okay.

Jesse Grider 26:24

He was released immediately. And, as I say he was cussing us and giving us a hard--.

Ethel White 26:29

--Okay.--.

Jesse Grider 26:29

--Way to on the (??).

Ethel White 26:30

Now, you were talking about the judge doing a good job. You're going--.

Jesse Grider 26:33

Well--. The--there are such things, and I happened to be in the judge's den, and the judge called Senator [Estes] Kefauver. Had nothing to do with this trial whatsoever. It had something to do with some other business. And I think, as I recall, there was a position coming open, and Judge Wilson had been a friend of Kefauver's. Called him to see if he had anyone in mind or that he would like to recommend for this position. And I don't even recall what position it was, and that was the total conversation. And I think the word was that no, he didn't have anybody in mind, and Judge Wilson says, "well, you know, I owe it you because you responsibly have been on the bench and--and if you had someone that you owed, I thought it would be--" and that was, that was all said. The trial was not mentioned. It had nothing to do with it whatsoever. But the next day in court, Hoffa had a sealed envelope, and his attorney introduced it and then made a motion to disqualify Judge Wilson.

Ethel White 26:34

--To this trial.

Jesse Grider 28:03

And Judge Wilson said, "on what grounds." The attorney says, "rather than make it part of the court record, I have it in a sealed envelope and hand it to the judge, through the bailiff to the judge." The judge refused to open it. And what it was that Hoffa had gotten, evidently, through the telephone company or heck, I don't know, but he knew that Judge Wilson had called Kefauver. And this was the record in the sealed envelope. Hoffa and his attorneys knew that it was not illegal to intercept a phone conversation unless you used it. And so, they were not going to make it public. They wanted the judge, they were giving it to the judge, and in a sealed envelope, and if the judge had opened it, then he would have been in violation of making it public. And so anyway, the--the judge was almost told it was enough not to open the envelope, and of course, he disqualifi--he disallowed their motion for disqualification and handed the envelope back to the attorneys. Well, I was talking to Hooker, which was one of the prosecuting attorneys, and he told me this little bit later. I didn't know what was going on. Then Judge Wilson called me back in his chamber. He says, "you were in the room last night when I the called senator." I said, "yes." He said, "you heard the entire conversation on my part." And I said, "yes." He says, "you make notes of that and don't forget it because may be necessary that you will have to testify to that somewhere down the road." And he says, "the only reason I'm saying that is just so you won't forget. And whatever I said that you remember, you’ll be free to testify or tell anybody you want to.

Ethel White 30:22

So, he knew what it was about, even though it was in a sealed envelope.

Jesse Grider 30:25

Evidently, somebody knew that Hoffa had gotten that phone conversation. And later on, I found out through the bureau--FBI that they knew that he had someone at telephone company. And they were watching every phone call that was made out of Wilson's home phone. And so, they were after--this was where he set a hearing for the attorneys and Judge Wilson had made notes for everything that was said that could be possible contempt to court. The time and the dates that were said by the attorneys, and he set the hearing for the attorneys. Shanker, I believe, was one of them, out of St Louis. He sent Shanker--he held Shanker in contempt of court and cited each instance for that whole six week trial, [chuckles] and gave him six months in jail for contempt of court, and he went to jail. [laughs] To take what he had to take from these people. You know, they were not, they were not trying to--they were trying to do it in a point of the law, but they would do anything just to confuse or disrupt the courts. It was a lot like some of these Vietnam demonstrators. You know, they were not mostly, although you never know, that mostly was not to hurt someone, but to just make a mass confusion and make you make a mistake, so you can get a new trial. And you know people like Hoffa, the money was no problem, because the (??) money that would have been spent. The special prosecutors in the case was Neil, which later became a--something to do with the Watergate. Had built quite a reputation for himself, and Hoffa kept referring--Neil was an ex-Marine, and Hoffa kept calling and hollering "here comes the Marines." You know when Neil would walk in. [tape cuts off] Well, Hooker, old man, hooker was the other prosecutor and hired especially by justice to prosecute--special prosecutors. Hooker was something do with the Jack Daniels distillery family. Didn't have anything to do with history, but some way he divorced, and he had all the stock in Jack Daniels. And back then, Jack Daniels was not doing all that well, and so, in part of the divorce agreement, he gave all that stock to his wife, and thinking he was beating her [laughs], and she ends up with all this money now nowadays. And back then, it wasn't more than that much. But anyway, he—he--the was special prosecutor, and Neil later became a assistant prosecutor, or something to do with the Watergate. Then became the United States attorney for the middle district of Tennessee, in Nashville. And occasionally, I see in these thinktank programs, he's very a sharp, young attorney, on educational T.V, he's big in a lot of that. I think he might have been an assistant special something to some of the committees--senate Committees during the Reagan and the Bush years, when they had all these committee hearings a goings and Ollie North and all that stuff.

Ethel White 37:15

Did Hopper try to sharp shoot Hooker?

Jesse Grider 37:19

Oh, yeah, I mean anything he could--to anybody, he didn't care. And now, I will say that the stepson or adoptive son, O'Brien, I believe was his name. That Hoffa had raised him, and O'Brien, which was--later, from what I've heard, was one of the suspects in Hoffa's disappearance, but he was his stepson or adoptive son, I believe. And Hoffa had a son, which is now an attorney, I think. Ran for the president of the Teamsters, I think. O'Brien was nice, and he'd come around behind Hoffa and apologize. In his $1,500 alligator shoes and his four- or five-thousand-dollar silt suits. And I mean these--this guy dressed. And, you know, here we are in our--lucky to have London Fog raincoats [laughs] and wingtip shoes. But he was very nice and nice to talk. And he was not involved in the trial of --just being there, because he was Hoffa's boy. Now, (??) his son and his daughter were there some. I think his son was a student at the time, so he was not at the trial the entire time, but his daughter was there still. But O'Brien was--he would usually come around (??), he's nervous. But as you know, and everybody knows, the story of Hoffa, then was convicted. Finally lost his appeals and went on to the penitentiary. And finally--and during this time at the penitentiary, I'll have to say that we had a marshal fired. That he was--and I can't remember in the full story, but he was taking Hoffa and another--someone else from someplace, back to court on a hearing or something. From Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, I believe, back to Detroit. And you do not--when you're transporting a prisoner, it doesn't make any difference who they are. Whether it was John Mitchell or it was--once he became a prisoner, [no matter] who they are, you have certain regulations that you comply with. You don't take prisoners in a restaurant to eat. You feed them in the car. You only take them out to use--to relieve themselves at a restaurant. Hoffa topped this marshal in to take him to his favorite place to eat and in Detroit, and marshal. No handcuffs anything else, and there was no escape or no problems security wise, other than someone happened to see it and the press picked it up. And of course, the marshal was called into Washington, and he admitted that he did, and that Hoffa bought the lunch, if he even paid for. And that was strictly against the regulations. And so, they fired--had to fire the marshal because of that. But he understood, and Hoffa, put the word out in the penitentiary for Teamsters to hire this marshal. So, since he was fired for helping him, then the Teamsters I think, hired him. So, in some capacity I don't know, doing what. Then the witness that testified--the main witness that testified against Hoffa, for the jury tampering charge, was Ed Partin, P-A-R,-T-I-N. He was the business agent of the local Teamsters in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. We had the, I say we, the Justice Department and the FBI had promised him protection if he would give us information. So, we put marshals on him, twenty-four hours a day in Baton Rouge. And I would go down there and work two or three weeks at a time in Baton Rouge. And he ran the union hall, which was a big old quonset-type building, on the Airline Highway in Baton Rouge. And he stayed at the airline, I think, motel in Baton Rouge. And you'd think I would remember the name of it as much time as I spent there, but he--at the Belmont Motel on the Airline Highway there in Baton Rouge, and he kept a room there, although he was from Baton Rouge, but he was divorced, and had three or four children. So, we would stay--tried to stay with him. He was a very hard man to stay with. If he didn't want you to be with him, he had his ways of sneaking off [chuckles] and you couldn't quit him, but that was his choice. You know, we were there and furnishing protection. There [were] was a lot of instances that happened, and I'm not sure whether it was not him doing it, with some of his goons, and he controlled the labor in Baton Rouge. And at that time, there was an awful lot of construction and so forth going on, and Teamsters could shut it down, and he controlled Baton Rouge. There wasn't any if and buts about it, and I know this, and I'm not free to say. Because some of the phone conversations that have heard him mention. For instance, before I got down there, he was in a particular motel, and one night, someone came through and shot the windows out of his room with a shotgun. Well, the marshals are in the room next to it. And I think they got both rooms, the marshals and Ed's. Ed claimed he heard the car, and it was a gravel, this was not at the Belmont Motel, this was another one closer by before he moved in the Belmont permanently. He claimed he heard the car on the gravel driveway, and he hit the floor. Because he knew, you know, cars come and go in the hotel all night. You get to the floor over time you heard one drive in, but that didn't make a lot of sense. No one was ever arrested for that. One morning I was there, and we had gone to the union hall. And he would get there in the morning. And if you're not familiar with the union hall, all these people, union members that were not steady employed would come in the union hall. And Ed, and on this big old Quonset hut on one side was about three or four offices, and Ed Parton's office was there. Well, he (??)--some construction company called in and said," I need twenty people for three days to--to work," whatever they were doing. Well, Ed would always send his boys first, and I mean these boys that would do whatever Ed wanted done. And he would come out with his slips and hand them out and tell them where to go, what job to report to, how long possibly the job would last. And you could tell who was not in disfavor, because they were usually never sent out, unless it was the--scratching the bottom of the pan if there wasn't anybody else there. But, this union hall, all day long, was fairly full of people. They were Teamster members, but not necessarily in the good graces of the powers to be. So, one morning at about 10 o'clock, then he wanted to go have breakfast, and there was an International Pancake House on--Airline Highway. And another marshal and I and he and the president of the local Teamsters, a fellow by the name of Bennett. Well, that local, the business agent, ran the union. The President was just a figurehead. Went over to have breakfast, and this is also a bar in this International Pancake House, and we were sitting at a table, and I heard this explosion. And my first thought was a bottle of wine had exploded from the bar, but then the tear gas hit me, and someone had thrown a tear gas grenade into the restaurant. Well, the other marshal I jumped out, ran out the door, and some colored fellas said, "he went that away, driving a pickup truck." So, we jumped in the car and leave Ed, the guy--we were witness--. We were watching to try to get the guy that threw the tear gas. And of course, we--we couldn't catch him. We didn't see him. Came on back to the Pancake House, and Ed and the President of the union Bennett, were standing outside. And so, we went on back up to the union hall. And Ed laughed about this all the time--it wasn't so, I thought he had that done. See, he--and my reasoning was that he wo--liked his protection and he was a publicity hound.

Ethel White 47:44

He what?

Jesse Grider 47:45

He liked this protection.

Ethel White 47:46

Liked it.

Jesse Grider 47:46

Marshals been there, and, you know, hey, I got whatever I want, and he had some of his goons to do these thing[s]. Now, I--I'm just reading between the lines, and I don't have [no] no proof of this, but he'd just laugh about often. And well, it ruined the poor company, or whoever owned that International Pancake House. Because you'd never get that tear gas out of the draperies and the carpet. I mean, the man went out of business. And [clears throat] I think there's a little newspaper clipping in that scrapbook somewhere. I have one where they interviewed me and I wouldn't make any comments cause I, what can I say you know? But I did think it was just a bottle of wine that had exploded when I first heard it, and I was facing--sort of facing the door, but I--you know, I didn't pay any attention to who was coming and gone. And there wasn't that many people in there. There was a few, but not many. And the door opened, and the thing was thrown in, why, I didn't pay any attention to it, nor did I see anyone. --I--since then, after spending some time around there, I think I knew who did it. And of course, there'd be no way I could ever have proved it--but prove it, but I think I did know who did do it. But he had these people that would do whatever he told them to do. He had a lot of these people that would never go out of the building, but some construction company would be paying them. He would just tell them to put them on the pay roll. And then they'd put them on the payroll, and they'd get to them to send the checks every week, and the guy had never left the union hall. He got---a lot of stuff he got involved in. He built a bigger--he got into the race car business, and he claimed that he went to Detroit, and he brought a car back that was worth a couple hundred thousand, a race car. And he claimed that this was done that--through Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy, and I don't think there was any question about Bobby Kennedy, wanting an office so badly, he could taste it, and he would do whatever was necessary to get it. I think that's sort of common knowledge. [Robert] McNamara was the former president of Ford Motor Company, and they say through the Kennedys and through McNamara and the Ford Motor Company built him this race car. And it was bought into--to Baton Rouge. He'd built a--I don't know whether it was a half a mile, black top racetrack in Baton Rouge, which must cost thou--hundreds of thousands of dollars, to build a racetrack like that. The story around Batton Rouge was that when the Teamsters, hauling their load of gravel to a job, that every other load would be dropped off at that racetrack, instead of a construction job [laughter]. Same thing with concrete, when they got ready to pour the concrete wherever they were on the load, went to the racetrack, and nothing was ever said. Because he'd shut the whole (??). I mean, he'd shut everything down, all those chemical plants up and down, between New Orleans and Baton Rouge. Teamsters wanted to shut them down, they shut them down. I heard him threaten to shut them down if they didn't give somebody a day off for their birthday and just ungodly stuff. I drove out--he had the Teamsters on strike, and some of the renegade carpenters would not stop building on a big apartment complex. So, he called a bunch of his--his people, and I went out there. And he told them where it was, and that he wanted them out there with their gloves. And so, I went out there with him. He never did get out of the car, nor did I, and watched him. And they got out there, they'd come in there in their pickup trucks, with their ball bats and everything, and they never said a word. They got out--side of the road where all these cars were parked and trucks. They just sort of sat there and pecked on those. Within a few minutes, you'd see these carpenters my God, they got out of that building. They laid their tools down and walked off. And nobody ever said a word, nobody ever threatened them. And they'd come up and get in their vehicle and leave.

Ethel White 52:53

So, there was no, no way to get them legally.

Jesse Grider 52:55

No. And they--they knew that if they crossed it, there was the Teamsters, and once they showed up that you better not come across that line. You were to--you were dead meat. And just saying--and also--and this you couldn't help, but here I was in a position that I, you know, my job was to protect him and keep him. Now, if some other Teamster member' get mad at him, which had nothing to do with Hoffa, and I had to hurt somebody else because of something bad he did to them. How would I know that it was not---Hoffa supported or out to get him because he testified against Hoffa. I mean, we'd just see some contractor go broke, because of the (??) put him out of business. Which he had; he had the power to do. But anyway, then a few years ago, three or four years ago, I had to be in New Orleans, and we were going---Barbara was with me, my wife, and we were on our way back to--we were gonna come back to east Texas to visit a friend and came through Baton Rouge. And I stopped by the union hall, just to see, this had been a number of years ago. To just see if any of the people were still around. Well, Parton had been--had retired. I think his brother replaced him for a short time, but then now, there's some fellow by the name of Kitchens, that's running, the business agent for the Teamsters. So, I talked to him a few minutes, and he didn't want to talk to me much. When he--and I tol him, I said, "well, it's nothing to do officially, I'm just come through. And I spent some time here, and I just wanted to." And he told me that Ed was still living at that time, in a subdivision. I didn't bother to go by there, but from the time we pulled the detail off of him, which had stayed on him for two or three years until Hoffa went into the penitentiary. He since--after we pulled that detail off of him, he had gotten in some trouble. I think he ended up serving six months in a federal jail type institution out in California somewhere, and I don't know what, he was always in something. [Tape cuts off]