Transcript
Index
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Ethel White 00:47
It is now March the third, 1994 and we are going to continue our conversation.
Jesse Grider 00:54
Why, of course, when we were--we knew what was--could possibly take place, you
always have an alternative plan. And we knew other ways to get out of the school and other exits, should it become necessary, if the mob had gotten too much, using the front entrance. And--but it didn’t, and we would go in the front and come out the front. The first day after school was out, and then we walked out with the child to take her home. And the local marshal driver was there to--at the precise time. And of course, we just walked out and get in the car and take her home. And on the way to her home, I never will forget, I asked her if she had learned anything that day, and she said, "yes, ma'am." [chuckles] So anyway, we go on and take her home. Well, then we were pretty much in a meeting shortly thereafter, with the other marshals at another school. And myself and the other three that was [were] at this particular school, and met with the person in charge of the overall--which was Jack Campbell. And discussing things that happened, and, you know, anything we needed to change. And of course, we would not go---use the same route to and from school every day. We would always take different routes. Nothing that happened, I mean, the mob was out and doing an awful lot of name-calling and throwing things and this sort of thing. And the next morning why, we followed the same procedure and went out and picked the little--young lady up, took her to school. The mob was still there, and I think this went on for three or four days. And that each day, the mob started getting smaller, and the police were there. They did a good job. The backup police officers were in the lunchroom in the school, and they stayed for several days. In fact, they were there when [clears throat] after we realized that there wasn't that much going on. I think after a week, things had sort of calmed down. You'd still have a few straggler[s] cursing and, you know, calling you names and this sort of thing. But after that, then I was asked to, you know, someone else, to transport this child, that I--it was getting off a boring sitting in at school all day, which they did. And so, I was relieved, and I stayed in New Orleans for another week or two, just more or less on standby, and attended the debriefings in the afternoon, in case I did have to go back, and I never did. So, I stayed around another week or so, and then things settled down and pretty much turned it over then to the local office and I came on back to my home district.Ethel White 04:53
Can I ask you if the--the mob ever found out where the little girl lived? Was
there ever a--Jesse Grider 05:00
There was never--.
Ethel White 05:02
--Route--at her house.
Jesse Grider 05:02
--Anything that I know of. Of course, you always have a lot of federal agencies
and the Justice Department officials around from the Civil Rights Division. The FBI is there, and if it was any made, I do not know it. And I knew some of the FBI agents there.Ethel White 05:23
So, the house was guarded at all times. No?
Jesse Grider 05:26
Not that I know of--.
Ethel White 05:28
Oh, I'm sorry.
Jesse Grider 05:28
--If it was, it was done by local police, but the other government
officials--you always--. These situations, you always had observers there. Maybe a military observer, some captain or colonel or someone to just--to observe in case they were called on for assistance, so they would be familiar with what was going on. [clears throat] They were never actually involved, but they were there.Ethel White 05:57
There meaning in the town?
Jesse Grider 05:58
In the town and observing and attending the meetings and so forth. So, if there
was any threats, I don't remember them, or don't recall them or been mentioned to the family.Ethel White 06:13
Now, the little girl's name, we think was Ruby.
Jesse Grider 06:16
Right.
Ethel White 06:16
Yeah. Did she have a father?
Jesse Grider 06:20
Yes, and mother, I--.
Ethel White 06:22
You mentioned the mother, though, yeah.
Jesse Grider 06:25
Yeah---I cannot remember talking to the father and I talked to the mother, but I
don't remember talking to the father. So, I presume, and I don't know, but yeah, I think I did see [him] in there.06:42
There's--I found in your scrapbook, a picture, I think was on the front page of
The New York Times from New Orleans. Do you happen to remember and it's--it's a little girl, and I think a father and some marshals. Do you happen to remember if that was you or--.Jesse Grider 06:59
Yes.
Ethel White 06:59
--Somebody else.
Jesse Grider 07:00
Yes.
Ethel White 07:01
It was you.
Jesse Grider 07:01
That was me, and that--that's why I can't remember whether the--the Black person
there--the man, was her father, or some relation, I just can't remember that. I think that using that picture is what Norman Rockwell used to paint the painting of the four headless marshals with a little Black girl going into the school.Ethel White 07:34
Were there actually four of you that took--that went in with her?
Jesse Grider 07:36
There was four of us that--that went in with her. So, I, don't think there was
[were] actual Marshals at the Rockwell---had posing for this. I think he took that picture, and the idea must have come to him to do this painting. And if you'll notice, in that scrapbook, that paper, and that came out in The New York Times, a picture. That that is of me, in one, one of those marshals, is me. I think I may have had a little more hair then or something but that was me.Ethel White 08:16
Now, I see we're looking at the picture behind you, which is the Norman Rockwell
picture. I mean, I am looking at it.Jesse Grider 08:22
Right.
Ethel White 08:22
It's behind you, and how did you get the picture yourself?
Jesse Grider 08:28
My--to start with the original one that I saw came out in Look Magazine. It was
the centerfold or double page painting, and my wife got that and had it framed for me. And of course, at the time, we had just gotten married in August.Ethel White 08:51
You mean, she got the---took the picture out of the magazine.
Jesse Grider 08:54
Out of the magazine and had it (??) or framed. And she was teaching school at
the time, and she and her class were discussing--keeping up with me through the news, me and what was going on in New Orleans. Of course, I was talking to her at night on my phone, but she said that was the big event of the day is--that she was teaching at Butler High School at the time, and the big event was keeping up with me and what was going on in New Orleans. So, I think the Norman Rockwell was just based on that. Now--.Ethel White 09:40
Is this the--.
Jesse Grider 09:40
--The picture that you're looking at on the wall, in 1992 I guess, maybe '93, I
had been to New Orleans on several occasions since then. But, about 1989 or 90, I had to be there for a clerk's conference, and my wife was with me, and I made some inquiries just to find this young lady, to see what had happened to her. And with no results, and I didn't go--I didn't have time, and I didn't do that much research, but I did make some phone calls and so forth. So, I never knew what happened to her, after I left there. In 1992, I guess, and I learned this later, that I had a call from the assistant United States attorney in New Orleans, and it was Black History Month. And they wanted to know if I was the--involved in the integration of the schools in New Orleans. And I had and I asked them how they found me. Well, there was an FBI agent that I had known that was stationed in Kentucky, had transferred to New Orleans, and he had retired from the FBI. Had finished law school and retired from the FBI and became assistant United States attorney. And the assistant U.S. Attorney that was trying to set up something for Black History Month in New Orleans was trying to do this, this agent or other assistant happened to be in his office, and he says, well, "contact Jess Grider, he's the clerk of the federal court in Louisville, Kentucky, and he had something to do with--with this." And so, this is how they found me. And so, the Assistant U.S. attorney that was handling the Black History Month program that they were trying to get together, called me and want to know if I would you know, be willing to come to New Orleans. And they were going to try to find this, this lady and I agreed to come down. And it was strange, is how they found her, because he--the assistant U.S. attorney, had gone in a framing shop there to have a picture or something framed. Saw this picture Norman Rockwell, that someone had the painting of the Black Girl and the four marshals, and having it framed. And he asked whose that was, and the person that the shop told him that, yes, he knew it was and--and it was the young girl that was in the picture was--brought it in to have it framed. So, he got an address, and I think he went out and talked to her. And so this is how they found her. Well, I flew down, and of course, I would not have recognized her. She was about thirty-seven years old, and [chuckles] that was--thirty-one years had passed since I had seen her, and they had a little thing in the courtroom. And I had talked to she and her mother--.Ethel White 13:36
A thing, meaning of some sort of celebration--.
Jesse Grider 13:38
--A little program, yeah that--they had the dean of the Law School from Tulane
there, and the dean from New Orleans University there, I think. And the young--Ruby and her mother and myself, and, gosh, I don't know--. I spoke, and the two deans spoke, and Ruby spoke, and we were the only ones that spoke. Of course, I would not have recognized her, nor mother by running into them. Or we discussed that she.Ethel White 14:26
Did they recognize you?
Jesse Grider 14:27
No, in fact, she says, "well, I've pictured you being a lot taller at the time."
And I said, "well, I was to a six-year-old child." And she [clears throat]--then was married and had two children. She was an administrator, or something to do with the administration of the church--of her church, and we have stayed in contact a little bit since. At the time I went down, I felt I needed to take something--some sort of little gift or something. And I was rushed for time, and I grabbed some moonshine jelly or something at the airport, which was in Kentucky, and I wanted something from Kentucky, and several other little things that I just picked up there and gave [to] the assistant U.S. attorney and Ruby. Not knowing that she was an administrator of her church, and me giving her the moonshine--moonshine jelly. But anyway, when we got back, when I got back then, we sent her a package of country ham. Kentucky-type foods, that we ordered, some of these gift places or something. I think's one down in Benton, Kentucky, I believe. I wanna say they have cheese and country ham and that sort of thing. So, we mailed that to her, and then we got a Louisiana cake in the mail one day came from her. And then, I had a call from her several months later, that she was wanting to go back and finish college, and that the only way she could afford to do it was, that she understood that the--Justice [Thurgood] Marshall had a program with scholarships, but that she had been calling and couldn't get in touch with him. Of course, at the time, he was still on the bench, but was ill, and wanting to know if I could help her out. And so, I did call Justice Marshall's office when he was in the hospital. So, I talked to his secretary, and she advised me that he had no such thing. That he does not know how that got started, that he had no--. --Yeah, he had nothing to do, and that she understood there was something floating around out in the country, that it was a Thurgood Marshall Scholarship program. And whether they just did that to try to get money or collect money, and whether it was legitimate why, she had no idea, but he had nothing to do with and she knew of nothing that he had this. So, I called Ruby back, gave her the sad news, and I have not heard from her since.Ethel White 17:05
It was a rumor. And that was, what a year, what did you say?
Jesse Grider 17:44
That was last year, think. And I--maybe we sent her a Christmas card. I'm not
sure, Barbara usually handles that, and I'm not sure that she did or not. I think she did, and I hadn't heard anything out of her, lately. I did see, on TV or something, where her brother had gotten shot in a housing project, or something there in New Orleans. That was either in the paper, or on the news or something. I think she has been on national T.V. since then. And in fact, I think Diane Sawyer interviewed her, which happens to be my wife's first cousin, Diane is, so.Ethel White 18:42
Do you remember anything more about either the meeting with her, with Ruby, or
the reception? Do you remember anything that was said or any particular feelings that were expressed in any way? Was it emotional--.Jesse Grider 18:57
No other--she--.
Ethel White 18:57
--Or was it--.
Jesse Grider 18:58
--Said--well, [clears throat] not really. You know. I mean, it was just total
strangers, meeting for the first time, really. She said she did not realize, you know, what she was really doing. You know, here she was, a six-year-old child, and that she didn't really realize what was going on. She was scared.Ethel White 19:28
She was scared, you had--.
Jesse Grider 19:29
Yeah.
Ethel White 19:30
I think you said the last time that, when you first picked her up--the first
day, she wasn't scared.Jesse Grider 19:36
No, no.
Ethel White 19:36
She didn't know it was gonna happen.
Jesse Grider 19:37
She didn't know what was going on but when--.
Ethel White 19:39
Do you re--.
Jesse Grider 19:39
--We got up to that mob.
Ethel White 19:40
Okay.
Jesse Grider 19:41
--She, she started--.
Ethel White 19:42
---Figured that one out.
Jesse Grider 19:43
Yeah, and she was a little bit scared. Now she--.
Ethel White 19:47
--Do you remember, at the time her being scared?
Jesse Grider 19:49
Oh, yeah.
Ethel White 19:49
I mean, she, she showed it, at the time.
Jesse Grider 19:51
When you pulled up in front of the school, you could--you could tell she
didn't---she knew things weren't right. And then, when can hear all these curse words and name callings and so forth that--that it bothered her. And--.Ethel White 20:09
--Did she react to being the--.
Jesse Grider 20:10
--But she--.
Ethel White 20:10
--Only one at school?
Jesse Grider 20:11
No, she--whoever instructed her had handled her well and she--she went right in
and sat down and did what the teacher--and the teacher, I thought was great. She handled it real[ly] well and went on as if she was teaching a full class, and I know I had improved my penmanship. So, a little bit [laughs] by sitting there. Because, you know the old penmanship books that they used to have. I presume they had them in Philadelphia, they did in southern Kentucky. You'd make your loops and I'd make the loops--.Ethel White 20:55
---You went through it--
Jesse Grider 20:56
---I did the whole--.
Ethel White 20:57
--Write it all-.
Jesse Grider 20:57
--Whole thing, yeah and used drawings that I hadn't used--seen since I was [in]
the first grade, I guess. And--.Ethel White 21:08
Do you remember if any of the other students who presumably were all white,
whether any of them ever went--let me get this out. Whether any of them started going to school--. --While you were still there.Jesse Grider 21:20
--Yes. Yes, they started coming back in, very few, but then they started coming
in. Now, when I left, no other one [no one else], I don't think, was in that class. In her class, but they were in the school. And to back up just a second, one of the T.V. cameramen, or reporters said he was in school that first day--in that same school. The day of the Black history in the courtroom, the T.V. people were there, and he was a reporter from one of the T.V. stations. And he said he was in--in that school at that time.Ethel White 22:04
Oh, you mean this is a man who became a reporter later.
Jesse Grider 22:06
Right, yeah after--. --He was about same age as Ruby was, and he evidently had
come to school, and I didn't see him. Whether he meant he was there the first day of school, or he went on and came back later. I did not see any other students in the school.Ethel White 22:07
--Who was--. And you were in the lunchroom.
Jesse Grider 22:26
I was in lunchroom, and you would, you know, we would go to lunch, just the
normal--. Everything was as normal as any day--class could be, under the circumstances. They went in, you had your recesses, you had your lunch. The teacher taught just as if she was teaching an entire class and I was sitting there thinking, well, I hope she doesn't call on me for a question. I might not be able to answer this [laughs] during the first grade [laughs]. But, you know, I mean, I faced that in some of the naturalizations too. Because some of the federal judges, when you use the naturalization, they question a lot of these people. You know, who the senators from this--a certain state, from this state are and who's the president and who's the chief justice and asking all these questions. And some about the--constitutional, you know, the three branches of government and so forth. And I used to sit in the courtroom and think, well, I hope the judge doesn't say, "Mr. Clerk, can you explain it to them." And I said, "it'll be something, and I won't know." [laughs]Ethel White 23:47
So, this is later when you became clerk.
Jesse Grider 23:49
This was later. Well, even when I was a marshal, I used to think of saying that.
When I was thinking that in the first grade in New Orleans too, that if the teacher called on me for a question--to answer a question, I may not know the answer. They were just sort of funny and some of the things that go through your mind. Anyway, after I was relieved there and stayed around and a few days or a week, maybe two weeks. And things were fairly cool now, students began to go back to school. Unlike Little Rock that--where they had just closed the school, in 1958.Ethel White 24:35
What do you think made the difference between Little Rock and New Orleans and
perhaps some of the later desegregation attempts. What--it sounds, from what you said, as though--although New Orleans had a[n] ugly mob in the beginning that you know, comparatively quickly, and I don't wanna say easily but, that it began to get better.Jesse Grider 25:02
Well, I think--. --New Orleans was a--you had a lot of transit. I mean, you
know, New Orleans is a good-sized city, and it was not like a lot of other areas of Louisiana that you know--that would be smaller. And I don't know whether I should use this word or not, a rednecks [redneck]--type people. New Orleans, they had a--they had a good police chief. Evidently, the city of New Orleans didn't want a black eye over this thing, and they were not going to let any mob or crowd take over their city. Now, the governor didn't help any by his actions, but he was up in Baton Rouge, and he really didn't, didn't get involved, other than getting the bills passed, trying to--to avoid this. But as I said earlier, the new Judge, J. [James] Skelly Wright, was the judge that was handling this case and had ordered him desegregated. [He] Would just rule the bill unconstitutional and slap a restraining order on the governor and the state's legislature, the Senate, and the House.Ethel White 25:03
--Why--? And you had the sense that the school was comporting itself, in
accordance with the law?Jesse Grider 26:49
At the school, I saw nothing in the--within that school that appeared to be
trying to avoid. Of course, I'm sure that the administrators and so forth, they had to see what was going on, interrupt their school year and all this, but I saw nothing to try to block, you know. You know, and Governor [Orvil] Faubus, didn't--didn't stand in the doorway like [George] Wallace did in Alabama, or he was trying to do it by--and who knows. Whether it's just politics in Louisiana to make him look good, or I can't imagine the governor getting those kind[s] of bills passed, and think they were going to hold water, when the federal courts had already ruled on the case and it had gone to the fifth circuit and--. You know, and all the way through the court system, and he could come up and pass some state law to avoid this was ridiculous, but it may have just been a show, I don't know. I don't know anything about Louisiana politics, but they're different. [laughs] That's--it shows in the last governor's election. You know, [laughs] I mean, you had a former Ku Klux Klan running with for governor and the former indicted--on criminal charges that won out over the Klan member. So, you don't know about Louisiana politics, they're all different. You go back and read the Huey Long and all the Longs that-- some of the things that went on back in those days is unbelievable. Now, I think I'll put this on pause so we can regroup and see where we're going to go next. Okay. [tape cuts off]Ethel White 28:53
Gonna go on to Montgomery and Birmingham now.
Jesse Grider 28:57
Okay, I do not recall--.
Ethel White 28:59
--This was 1961--.
Jesse Grider 29:00
--But it--.
Ethel White 29:00
--May I interrupt that?
Jesse Grider 29:02
--Yeah while--. I think so. I do not recall which comes first. I was in
Birmingham during the integration of the schools we had--I was there to run the--run the detail. We had leased office space in an office building [in] downtown Birmingham, and in that room, we had communications with the marshals that were actually following two or three of the young girls to school every morning. And I'm not sure, I said girls, I'm not sure they were all girls--the students. Then--thing--we would not stay at the school.Ethel White 29:03
1961. And you don't remember the name of the school.
Jesse Grider 29:51
And I don't remember of the schools or anything. I--my communications was
with--and I was mostly there just in the morning, for a couple hours, and then in the afternoon for a couple hours, until the children got safely to school. And in the afternoons, when they were picked up at school and safely got home. I think we actually drove them for a while, and then, we started not furnishing transportation, but escorting or tailoring them or following them to school to be sure that nothing happened to them. I don't know how long--I don't remember how long I was there, but I was there two or three, four weeks, maybe. Then, I'm not sure whether there was anything in between or what happened but then during the Freedom Bus ride, which is, I understand and trying to recall by memory. That a group of people had decided, after the bus boycott and so forth, that the lady refused to get--.Ethel White 31:11
This is--.
Jesse Grider 31:11
--In the back of the bus and--.
Ethel White 31:13
--This was--is the Montgomery bus boycott.
Jesse Grider 31:15
Right, and they started boycotting the busses. I think Dr. King had something to
do--was involved in that. About the first time I heard of him, really. Then, a group of people had--had--leased busses are chartered busses or something from different areas of the country, to ride through Alabama, and which they did. And I think they were faced with an awful lot of problems, from the time they came into the state of Alabama, but then when they got into Montgomery, is when it really--it really broke loose. That they beat a lot of the people up and even some of the news people. [tape cuts off] Of course, was from the news. We were not there; the marshals were not there at this time. With the results of this then, drew an awful lot of people into Montgomery, including Dr King. And after this hit the press and then the national news media and the T.V.s and so forth. Why, it was--it was just a big mess. I mean, there were just all sorts of beatings and so forth. So, they, they called the marshals in. I had a call to report to Montgomery, Alabama, to Maxwell Air Force Base, which is in the edge of Montgomery. Probably now in the city of Montgomery, there was a prison. We had a prison camp there, also that's mostly white-collar criminals that serve their time there, non-security risk type people. I think the former attorney general served his time there, from-- [John] Mitchell. But anyway, they called a lot of different federal agencies in there at that time.Ethel White 34:16
Are you saying you actually made your post at the Air Force base?
Jesse Grider 34:20
At the Air Force Base, and we reported in--we, myself [me] and another marshal
from the---two--two or three other marshals from here went. They were getting every marshal they could get their hands on. I had just bought a--I don't remember what year this was in, but I had a, to me was a new 1960 Buick that I hadn't had very long. And of course, at that time, we had no government cars. We furnished our own automobiles, and the government reimbursed you for your mileage and so forth. I. And so, we drove--I drove to Montgomery, to Maxwell Air Force Base, and we had no equipment. The--we did borrow some night sticks and some surplus steel helmets from the military, and we had our armbands, of course, to identify ourselves. But we got to Maxwell Air Force Base in the middle of the afternoon, I think, or early evening. And we drew cots and this sort of thing and went out in the hangar and set up our lodging in an old Air Force hangar. I hadn't much more got in the hangar then the call came in to get downtown to a particular church. So, we did, and I drove down. What kind of a church? I don't remember what the name of the church--.Ethel White 36:10
Black, white.
Jesse Grider 36:11
It was a Black church. A group of Black leaders were in the church meeting, and
there was a mob beginning to build up across the street, which--directly in front of the church. Across the street was a big park, city type park. We got downtown, I grabbed my nightstick, my old steel handle, and got downtown, and then I got to the church. Well, I parked my car over near this park on the street and had gotten over to the church. And we completely surrounded the church, and I had--I was in front with, I don't know, maybe forty or fifty marshals with a line. And I was sort of the center of the line. And what we were trying to do is just protect those people in the church. The mob in the park kept getting larger and larger, and we did have a few canisters of tear gas, but not much. Couple of pickup trucks had parked there on the street across from the church and the beds were full of rocks and so forth. And well, not realizing at the time that was their--their weapons. And so, they did start, it got completely--unruly, and they started throwing their rocks. And they did break some of the windows of the church. They hit several of our people, and we stood there for quite a while, and--Took a lot of this.Ethel White 38:09
Now, were any of your people felled by the rocks?
Jesse Grider 38:12
Several of them hit, but they all--did not put them out of action. I mean, they
stayed. Finally, I decided the police were-- were in the area but doing nothing. And I decided that we had to do something, or---.Ethel White 38:33
Were you in charge?
Jesse Grider 38:34
I was sort of in charge of the front group, although the--Jim McShane was a
director of the marshal service, and he was there, but I made a decision to go across the street and they start trying to bust us. This--Marvin Whites was a deputy marshal from Tallahassee, Florida. Marvin was about six foot three or six foot four, marshal, former pilot in World War Two, prisoner of war for a number of years. And I never will forget it, I got tickled at the time, and I realized wasn't anything to laugh over, but you had to make the best of the circumstances, and he got hit in the stomach with a brick. And of course, we had no protection other than our head with those steel helmets. And you could hear him probably groan--half of--over half of Montgomery, Alabama. But this was as we were moving across the street, to where we're going to start trying. And we were trying to keep our line, so we could move the whole bunch. We didn't even have gas masks. So, I did holler, you know, to throw some gas. And they would throw--we would throw some canisters of [chuckles] tear gas, and that did--some of them scattered, but the majority of them--or a lot of them had little shovels. And well, a tear gas grenade gets awful hot, and you can't pick it up with your bare hand. So, they had these little military trench shovels, we call them.Ethel White 40:27
They-- they the mob?
Jesse Grider 40:29
Mob and they would pick those things up and throw them back at us. Well, we
getting more gas than they were, and we didn't have gas masks and some of them did--did have [them]. But the main--my main object was to get them away from those pickup trucks with all those rocks. Well, they turned two or three cars over and set them on fire. It was over near where my car was, and that was making me madders than hell, cause I thought it was my car, and particularly with Kentucky plates on, but it wasn't, it wasn't damaged. [clears throat] I later learned that I think--it was either a granddaughter or a daughter of Winston Churchill's car that was--she was there representing some press or something, and I think it was her car, her rental car that they had turned over and burned. But anyway, we got over, and they started backing them up, and they started scattering. And the one guy that was, I guess, thought he was tougher than everybody else, and it isn't anything that I'm proud of, but it happened. And he jumped in my face, and he had a butcher knife. And so, when I saw the knife, I did hit him upside of the head with a night stick, and his knees buckled, and [clears throat] but before he went on the ground, I hit him again, and he did go to the ground. And then his brother jumped up with a knife, and was sort of in behind him, and I was determined that I was going to get him, too. So, you know if I didn't get cut, somebody would have gotten cut. And I went on all round or over the first guy that I had hit, and some of the other marshals, I think, had kept him on the ground. He wasn't hurt all that bad, but he was--enough that he was laying on the ground. And you know, when I got after the other guy and he ran, in fact, he threw the knife and ran. And I hollered for--and he with a group, maybe fifteen or twenty people. And so, I hollered for some help, and we got them running, let's keep them going. You know, and we wanted to get them out of that park completely. And I never could catch the other guy, I don't know what I'd of done to him if I could have caught him. But when we got up to the corner of the park, there was a lieutenant standing there, Montgomery police--policeman, and he says, "well, I'll get some help, and we'll come on in and help." And I said, "we don't need your damn help, we needed it earlier, we don't need it now." You know, we pretty well got this thing split up. Once you get them scattered why, they're easy to handle. And so, he just stood there. Well, we finally got these--these that we were chasing, and they started going in all different directions, which is what we wanted, and they were not that organized, unless you got them out of that park. And I went back down to the--we couldn't get them. I was dying of thirst, and everybody else was and so, we get back down to the church. And there was [were] still reports coming in throughout the city of an awful lot of rock throwing at cars and this sort of thing. And on the way back down, there was a man and his wife, I presume, man and wife. They were from up north someplace, and they were just on their way from Florida, back to Michigan or wherever. And asked me that, my God, I've gotten such a mess, I'm trying to get home. All I want to do is get up through here and get to--the interstates were not completed at that time. And how do I get out of here on whatever route they were wanting on. And I said, "mister, I have no idea. I tell you; I don't even know where I am, other than Montgomery, Alabama." And he said, "I've never got such a mess--if I ever get out here, I'll never be back." He said, so anyway, I went on back down to the church, and at that time, the military had been--a general of--the Alabama National Guard was there. And my director and they were discussing the situation. And we had all these people in the church, Black people, Martin Luther King, we had picked him up at the airport and brought him the end of the church because he was speaking to them. This was earlier, before all this took place, because he was in the church when this--when this was taking place.Ethel White 45:55
Now, when you say we had brought Martin Luther King to--.
Jesse Grider 45:58
--The Marshals.
Ethel White 45:59
--The church.
Jesse Grider 45:59
--Marshals.
Ethel White 45:59
You yourself, or other marshals.
Jesse Grider 46:01
No--no, other marshals. So, the meeting was over, and it was fairly secure
there, but there was [were] a lot of small bands just running wild throughout that end of town in Montgomery. We were all--a lot of us dying of thirst of course, from breathing a lot of that tear gas and so forth. And so, I did go to a house, this was, you know, a neighborhood type church, and there were homes all around the area. And I went over to the house and asked them if they would mind if I----did they have an outside water possibly. Said they did and myself, and it was a Black family. So, I found it and got some of the gas washed off my face and some water. And then I go back, this is just within twenty yards of the church or whatever. So, I go back down, and my director was Jim McShane and the general of the Alabama National Guard [are] discussing the situation on letting these people out of this church. And the general was saying, "I could not guarantee their safety, if you let them come out of that church." And McShane, which was very close to Bobby Kennedy. McShane was a former New York City policeman. Served as a[n]investigator on a committee that Bobby Kennedy had---that was general counsel on. And when, of course, [John F.] President Kennedy was elected, then they made McShane the director of the U.S. Marshal service. I think he licked the tide of chief U.S. Marshal at that time, but he and the general were discussing it, and they had Bobby Kennedy on the telephone. And McShane was telling the attorney general that the general is saying he cannot guarantee the safety of these people. And I'm standing there listening to this [chuckles] conversation, and--and Bobby Kennedy says, "you put a general of the United States Army on the telephone and let him tell me that he can't protect a few citizens of this country." And so, McShane change ends--and it was a radio telephone type thing. Operated from the back of this General's jeep. And the only thing--I could not hear Bobby Kennedy's words, but I could hear the general saying, "yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir." Then McShane turned to me and says, "can we get these people--" says, "my God, the marshals can escort them out of here." And I thought, Jesus Christ, none of us know where we were going. You know, we don't have that many cars to--but finally, we agreed to let them start coming out [in] small groups. And maybe fifteen-to-twenty-minute intervals to make sure that they all right when they. We did, and we stayed there, I think, all night or almost--.Ethel White 49:34
So, you didn't take them--.
Jesse Grider 49:35
--No.--
Ethel White 49:35
--Anywhere.
Jesse Grider 49:35
No.
Ethel White 49:36
You stayed by the church.
Jesse Grider 49:37
We stayed. We were there till, I don't know, all night. I think it was almost
the crack of dawn before everything was pretty well secured. And so, then they--I don't really recall what happened, but I know--I went down---in the marshal's office downtown, and they had called a federal grand jury. Or they either had a grand jury sitting, and I'm not sure which and to have a grand jury investigation---a federal grand jury investigation while this is going on. And they asked me if I'd mind serving a few subpoenas on some people in this, to testify for the grand jury. Which I agreed to and one I'll never forget was Herb Kaplow. And he was in his hotel--.Ethel White 49:55
The newsman.
Jesse Grider 49:58
The newsman, and he was in the--in a hotel there, at Montgomery. And so, I went
over to--tapped on his door, and he's,-- "who is it?" I Told him, "a United States Marshal, a subpoena for a grand jury." Well, he wasn't about to open that door. He wasn't sure whether we were marshals or not, and he had been involved in a lot of this, so he--he knew what was going on. And he made me slide my ID under the door, which I did, and then he cracked the door and with the chain on it, and I handed him a subpoena, but he was very cautious. So, then I--we were around there for, gosh, I don't know how long, but I don't remember us getting involved or--I don't remember what happened, really, after that. And then of course, the meeting was over the next morning. I went back over and tried to find this knife, in case later that somebody claimed that I hit some poor, unarmed individual [chuckles], with a night stick and. If he had been seriously hurt, which at that time, you--didn't know. I never could find the knife, then I remember walking up on the [clears throat]--the other end of the park later on that night or that morning sometime. And there was [were] two marshals from Mississippi, deputy marshals up there, which were friends of mine, and still are. One of them said to me, he says, "well, I can't believe you hitting that white man over them niggas." And I said, "I wasn't hitting that white man over the niggers, I was hitting that white man because he was going to cut my throat." And I said, "I'd--I'd hit you if you had threatened me with a butcher knife." And, of course, they were very anti---. But they, and they were the-- one of them. Well, both of them were--two of the four or five that stayed in Little Rock the year before. But their heart wasn't in it. I mean, they were not for integration in any shape, form, or fashion.Ethel White 53:26
Well, now, how are your feelings at the time? Had they developed it all? And--.
Jesse Grider 53:30
--Well, I was beginning to--.
Ethel White 53:31
--You might start with---how you were--you know, what you learned as a child? I--
Jesse Grider 53:34
After seeing them being mistreated as they were, and seeing some of the things
that went on, I was beginning to--to feel, you know, my God, these poor people have been treated awful, you know. Not because they were Black or white or anything, I just couldn't believe that--that you were treated, that away. As I say, I grew up with--with Blacks. Caddied at the country club, ate with them--them, but I didn't realize that they had separate schools, or even entered my mind why they weren't in the same school we were in. I knew that Bundt (??) School was a Black school. I knew that they didn't eat in the restaurants, and I knew we had separate drinking fountains at the courthouse and certain waiting rooms at the courthouse. Most of the small country towns had--everybody came to town on Saturday, and they would have lounges in the courthouse, for the women to rest or whatever. And of course, some men sat out in the yard and whittled and trade knives or something, but it just--it didn't dawn on me that these things that were being so mistreated and as these people were. And it's--it kept getting a little bit worse, you know, as we get into some of the other areas that--. Seeing Bull Connor with his dogs and putting--sicing them on the Black lady, you know.Ethel White 55:17
Now, you weren't actually there.
Jesse Grider 55:18
No, no.
Ethel White 55:20
Of course, learned--.
Jesse Grider 55:20
--Saw the pictures--.
Ethel White 55:21
--Knew this was going on. In Montgomery.
Jesse Grider 55:26
Yes--I don't know what happened on the grand jury. I didn't keep up with that. I
don't know when I went back, whether it was at the same time. I think was at a different time. They had charged or either issued and I don't know the issue the show caused. I think just [Judge Frank] Johnson had entered an order against the Ku Klux Klan and I think some way, they may have been involved in some of this and I don't--. In Montgomery. And whether it was this or not, I don't know, but I did go back to work the court, so to speak. There was security at the court, because the Grand Dragon of the Klu Klux Klan was ordered into court to show cause why it shouldn't be held in contempt of court for violating. I really didn't do that much. I mean, I was just there in case anything should happen, or the Klan got unruly. I never will forget Judge Johnson. I was used to all federal judges wearing a robe. He didn't, he wore a dark blue suit, and he very seldom sat down, but was tougher than nails. A very tall gentleman, very nice, but tough, and he walked back and forth a lot on that bench. Most federal court's benches are very long to--because at one time, if it was a constitutional question come up, it took three judges to rule on the constitutional question. In most benches in federal courts, the older courtrooms were just long enough to handle a three-judge panel. If it was required, from them to sit and all the benches have seats up there for the judges. Judges’ chairs, we refer to them, they're the high back, very comfortable chairs. But he walked back and forth in that dark blue suit, and I was not in there all that time. I was more concerned with what was going on outside the courtroom. In case mobs or something started trying to show up for a lot of Ku Klux Klansmen or whatever. But I was in when he--when he made his ruling. And I never will forget it, he did not hold them in contempt of court, but he really came down on them and made the statement. If you people, and I don't want--I hope I can quote him verbatim, I'm not sure. Are going to keep fooling around to this court, to the--whole bunch of you is going to the penitentiary, and says, "I want you to understand that. I don't want any misunderstanding, Mr. Shelton. Do you understand that?" And Shelton was the head dragon, and he said, “yes." And he preached to him for about ten minutes with--he was a lot like James F. Gordon, our federal judge here. You always knew where you stood, and he made it very plain, and you didn't misunderstand anything he had to say. And he made it very plain to him that he was on the verge sending a lot, a bunch of them to the penitentiary. And--I went on out of the courtroom about that time. Because I think there was about eight of us that went in there just in case, when he started on his decision and if things got unruly well, there would be enough of us in there to take care of these [them]. They was [were] five or six of these Klan members, but Shelton being the head honcho. And I went on downstairs and ----and when I was standing by elevator door, when he came out, and he said something smart to me, and I said back to him. Of course, I had my badge on me, he knew who I was. And I said something back to him, and then he just walked on. I think there's a picture in the scrapbook of me standing there by him when he--well, that was when he was getting off the elevator. And I wasn't with him, I just happened to be---why--be standing there, and he made some nasty remark to me. And I think I said something too, "well, I heard what Judge Johnson said." And [chuckles] I said, "you be careful, you'd be right back up there. And he just walked on, he didn't say anything else. I don't remember then how long I was there. I stayed around a while and I came back home, back to my district.Ethel White 1:01:05
Now, did you ever come in contact with the Freedom Riders at all, or do remember
any of that?Jesse Grider 1:01:17
No, not, not at that time.
Ethel White 1:01:21
Or Martin Luther King, or any of--.
Jesse Grider 1:01:24
---Yeah--.
Ethel White 1:01:24
--This--.
Jesse Grider 1:01:25
--Well not--.
Ethel White 1:01:25
--Or was that later?
Jesse Grider 1:01:26
Well, I was around him that night, I mean, at the church. When we let them all
out, and then we had--local marshals. was [were] going to drive into the airport. Because they knew the--their city and the area. Of course, all of us people from--out of town, wouldn't have any idea how to get from the church to the airport.Ethel White 1:01:49
Well, you remember---.
Jesse Grider 1:01:50
--But I I did--WAS in the church with him when he came out and---.
Ethel White 1:01:53
Do you remember seeing anything about the way people were acting inside the
church, whether it was King--.Jesse Grider 1:02:00
--No--.
Ethel White 1:02:00
--Or anybody else.
Jesse Grider 1:02:02
--No--no--I---.
Ethel White 1:02:02
---Just there a short time.
Jesse Grider 1:02:03
---I could hear them and their speaking, I couldn't understand. Particularly
when the mob started building up. Things were so loud outside. but they went on through---.Ethel White 1:02:15
--But you didn't go in in there later, after the mob broke up, you didn't go inside.
Jesse Grider 1:02:18
No--.
Ethel White 1:02:18
--For any--.
Jesse Grider 1:02:19
--Other than just the door.
Ethel White 1:02:20
Just--okay.
Jesse Grider 1:02:20
Yeah, and at that time, the meeting was over. We were just not letting them out
of the church, until we were sure that we could secure them. They were beginning to grumble, you know, I mean, they didn't want to sit in that church, and they were ready to go home. And they weren't worried about--I mean, I'm sure they were worried, but they were willing to have go on their own and go home. They didn't want to be kept in the church, a prison, so to speak.Ethel White 1:02:51
So, you think you were in Montgomery for about roughly, I mean, was it a matter
of weeks or days?Jesse Grider 1:02:58
I'd say a week or so. And I'm really not sure when I went back. Because on this,
whether this was the same time on this Ku Klux Klan hearing, or whether it was at a separate time. And I don't remember Judge Johnson's family, his mother and father were still living. Had gotten a threat, and I don't remember whether it was over this or over some of his other at another time, but I did go out to his--his parents’ house with Jack Cameron, which was the second person in charge of the director's office. And talked to his mother and father, and we decided to put security on, not real tight, but have a marshal outside of the house, twenty-four hours a day. Maybe just part--. [tape cuts off] 1:00