Transcript
Index
0:00
Ethel White 00:05
Today is February 24th, 1994, and we're going to continue our conversation. And
I do have just a few cleanup questions from the last session to ask you. Was there a reason why the town in which you were born was called Griderville?Jesse Grider 00:26
Well, other than my father and his three brothers, came there from Adair County
and bought farmland, farms and--and opened a little grocery store, and it was just the four Grider boys, and so they named the Griderville. And fact, the little Grider Grocery is still sitting there, that a cousin is, is keeping it open, and it's not to make any money. Because it's just a very small, little country grocery that you know, maybe some of the people come in and get bologna sandwiches or a can of Vienna sausages or something, and a cold drink, but it's still there and it's still in operation. And I have co--and a cousin runs that, and then I have other cousins that still farm there. And--and that's--.Ethel White 01:25
Okay.
Jesse Grider 01:26
--Probably after those four boys that--Grider boys that moved there.
Ethel White 01:32
Also, you mentioned in connection with--right before you joined the marshal,
service, knowing Louie Nunn and Thruston Morton's assistant, and I just--if that was correct.Jesse Grider 01:44
Well, Louie--yes, Louie--.
Ethel White 01:46
How--how did that happen?
Jesse Grider 01:46
Well, Louie was—is from Glasg--Barren County. He's from Park, Kentucky, and he
was elected county judge of Barren County. And I think the first Republican who's ever been elected to county judge there, and of course, that was the old county judge system, which they handled court and so forth. Compared to today's county judge executive, or whatever the titles are.Ethel White 02:18
So, you knew him to just--.
Jesse Grider 02:19
--By viewing by--.
Ethel White 02:20
--Virtue of it being a-- Small town.
02:20
--A
Jesse Grider 02:21
Small town, and they'd been on the police department, him as county judge. And
of course, we--and then his brother, Lee Nunn, which then was in the automobile business, I think, or had been, and he became a dollar year deputy sheriff, and they were big on bootleggers. Barren County being a dry county, and so, I worked with him a lot in trying to catch bootleggers and whiskey runners and so forth, and which we did catch an awful lot of. And then, of course, Louie didn't run for reelection. I don't know what he did from the time he went out of--other than an attorney practicing law. And Lee then--Thruston Morton--Lee, Louie's brother, went to work for Thruston as an administrative assistant. [clears throat] And Louie practiced law for a number of years and---and was always involved in politics and the campaign manager for Thruston or something, but he was always involved. And then, of course, he ran for governor what, twice? The first time he got defeated, I guess, by [Ned] Governor Breathitt, and then the second time, he ran against [Henry] Ward and was elected governor, and served just four years as governor. And stayed in Lexington I think practice, but now he's back in Glasgow. Well, Park, Kentucky's really where he--where he lives, which is out near Griderville and he, but he practiced his law out of Glasgow.Ethel White 04:26
Also, why did you go to Owensboro for fingerprinting, when the marshal’s office
was in Louisville?Jesse Grider 04:30
They were having--
Ethel White 04:31
--When you first joined.
Jesse Grider 04:32
--court there and marshal and--back at that time when, when you had court, the
whole shebang just packed up and moved to the city and where court was going. That's your clerks, your FBI, Secret Service, the marshals, the judge, and everyone went down to the division. So, it was a regular term of court. You normally had court in those divisions twice, a year, the spring, and the fall. And you had grand juries sitting in each of the divisions, [clears throat] and they would return their indictments in that particular division. And I guess I'd have to go back and say a division is made up of so many counties, like the Bowling Green division would be made up of eighteen counties in the south-central part. Owensboro would be made up, and I can't recall off the top my head but maybe nine or nine or twelve counties. From Leitchfield, which is Grayson County, Daviess County. [Tape cuts off] Oh, when you had your term, a court came up. Then, the courts just packed up and moved to that city and handled their civil and criminal docket. And the court was [has] been handled in Owensboro and the marshal was there and--and so it was just as close for me from Glasgow to go to Owensboro as it was Louisville.Ethel White 06:36
Okay.
Jesse Grider 06:37
And so, I went down that morning and was fingerprinted and so forth.
Ethel White 06:45
And my last cleanup question, which may not be a fair question, but is there
somebody that---that you could point to that had, perhaps the greatest influence on you. Before you became a marshal, during your growing up days.Jesse Grider 07:02
My mother probably.
Ethel White 07:05
how was that?
Jesse Grider 07:06
Well, she was just a very hard working, religious, very religious person. Never
missed, missed church or Sunday school. She was a Baptist, and she made all the grandchildren--on Sundays, she would get all the grandchildren together and make them go to Sunday school, including me.Ethel White 07:39
The grandchildren.
Jesse Grider 07:40
Grandchildren and me being the baby of six. [clears throat] And my older
brothers and sisters that had children, and so she would make them go to church. And I don't know, she was just a fine lady. She died very young, with a brain tumor at age fifty-four. And--but I think she probably, and most people say that I take them--that I have a personality a lot like hers. I hope so, I do, I think it'd be great. I don't know, and I--and coming from the background that I did, which was a very poor family, that I was just sort of determined that, even though I didn't go on at that time and get an education or a higher education, I was determined I was going to make something of myself and do the best I could with what I had to do with. And law enforcement just sort of--after I got into it, it just sort of seemed to be my thing, and I enjoyed it. And not, but of course, back then you didn't have Miranda, all these rights and so forth. And what a police officer said was it, you know, and, and particularly when the federal---if the federal spoke, well, that was, that's the way it was. And--not that I was in it for any power, or I wasn't that type of person, but I just enjoyed it. I enjoyed the work, and felt like I was contributing something, and maybe I got to that from my mother, she was a nurse, and she enjoyed it. And my sister, then is still a practical nurse in Caverna, she lives in Glasgow, but she commutes to Caverna. Her daughter is an RN at Vanderbilt in Nashville, so the nursing sort of runs in the family and--but I'm the only one who got involved in law enforcement. I thoroughly enjoyed it.Ethel White 07:45
Oh, okay. When we finished the last time, we had---we were talking about Little
Rock, and you had just talked about the fact that you were one of the four marshals that they chose to retain there. After they dismissed or discharged, or whatever you would call it, the larger group of marshals. Do you remember anything about that final period?Jesse Grider 10:24
No, not really--.
Ethel White 10:24
How long it lasted?
Jesse Grider 10:27
About a month, I think. And we didn't do an awful lot. As I say, we served a lot
of TROs, temporary restraining orders and this sort of thing but we didn't do an awful lot. And [clears throat] there was two from Kentucky, two--marshals, myself [me] and Gilbert Bryant, and two deputies from Mississippi. Then we were the four that stayed for that extra month or so. And what had happened, after they realized there wasn't going to be anything much going on, that the schools were not going to open and this sort of thing. Then they--all the marshals that were in there, and I do not recall how many. And of course, at that time, I was just one of the deputies, I had not--we'd had no training or this sort of thing. And I had no supervisory responsibility or this sort of thing. So anyway, after they realized there wasn't anything going to happen or go on, and the majority of the marshals went back to their home districts and the four of us stayed. In about a month, and then we came back home. After getting back, I guess they realized that if we were going to be involved in this, that we had better receive some training. And--.Ethel White 12:00
Now this--you're talking about the higher up people in the marshal--.
Jesse Grider 12:03
Right.
Ethel White 12:03
--Service realized this--.
Jesse Grider 12:04
--The Justice Department and--.
Ethel White 12:06
Justice Department.
Jesse Grider 12:06
Being part of the responsibility of the marshals to carry out federal court
orders. And it looked like that this was going to open up, and then we're going to see an awful lot of cases in--particularly in the south. Going into federal court and ordering desegregation.Ethel White 12:28
Civil rights. Um-hmm.
Jesse Grider 12:29
Uh-huh. And so, I guess the powers to be felt like that you know, if it was the
marshal's responsibility to carry out federal court orders, that we had better start getting some training and so forth. So, in 1959--about January, I think, they started a school in the national--Federal Youth Center in Washington, D.C. And this was an institution for handling juveniles, mostly. But then we--the marshal service established a school there, and so I attended in--not in January, but sometime that early, early spring in February, maybe March. Then I was to go attend at school, which I did. And--Ethel White 13:33
Did that become required for everybody? Or was it just--.
Jesse Grider 13:35
Every marshal, yeah Well, I think there was maybe an age to it, because at that
time, you did have a lot of older marshals or deputy marshals. Now, when you're speaking of marshals, you're--you're speaking mostly of deputy marshals. The marshals themselves are more administrator and presidential appointee for a term. Chief deputy marshals and deputy marshals are career people, and so all the deputy marshals of a certain age category, went through this training. And so, my two weeks training there, evidently, they--someone must [have] liked what they saw of me or whatever. But from that, then I was selected to become an instructor, and I--I came back. After finishing--completing that training, I came back to western Kentucky, back to Louisville. And in the late summer [clears throat] of 1959, we--they decided this should be a training program upgraded or refresher in El Reno, Oklahoma. So, I was sent along with about six other instructors to set up the school in El Reno, Oklahoma. Which, there is a federal institution there, and we were using their facilities. We set up a training school, and we were returning--we were running fifty, forty or fifty deputy marshals through the school for a two-week period. Well, we--we realized that--after we got them--set this up, that it had a dual purpose. And one of them was that we would be much closer to Little Rock, and we'd all be together, and with one move, we could move in several marshals into Little Rock, if necessary, for that fall. And--but we were not told this. We were there for training purposes only, and that was it, but reading between the lines, I think that's why we were sent in there to--for training and to be available if they needed marshals in Little Rock for that fall school term. And--which they didn't, and we didn't go, but we had overlapped classes. Like we would have forty to fifty deputy marshals maybe in a class, and we would have the other trainees come in two days early. So, we would always have eighty to one hundred marshals there within a two- or three-day period, which would be the first group that we'd be sending into--to Little Rock, should we have to go? And we didn't, and as I say, I did not see this in writing, nor did any--we were just--figured that this must be what was---what we were there for. We were not told but we were available.Ethel White 17:28
Could you take a minute to describe the training? What kind of training was it?
Jesse Grider 17:33
Well [clears throat] we had a---we had quite a bit, but mostly--my part of it
was mostly mob and crowd control.Ethel White 17:42
Now, is that physical or psychological?
Jesse Grider 17:45
Both, I would handle mostly the physical part of it, and they would have other
guest instructors and so forth. I'd done all the studying and reading than I could on this. And we found out it's almost--well, I guess we'll get into a little bit later, but--. Normally, in mob or riot control, it takes pretty a level-headed individual if not well, then you could do more damage than you do good, and--an awful lot of common-sense and. Normally, in a mob, you'll have a few that are the instigators and get everybody riled up. And so, the idea is to finger those people and let them know they've been fingered. And a lot of times, they sort of disappeared into the woodwork. Because they realize that if anything's going on, they're going to be the first ones that's--that's gonna be you know gotten or taken--.Ethel White 19:04
Is that you mean by finger? Do you mean to threaten them or--.
Jesse Grider 19:07
No, no, just---. --Realize and pick out who the troublemakers really are. And
you know, and if you've got a crowd of a thousand people out there, you may have thirty or forty that's agitating them [clears throat]. So, what you try to do is isolate those agitators, and you know, you can start watching them, and they realize that, that they are being fingered, so to speak, that they've been picked out. That, you know, they realize if anything goes down, that they're going to be the first ones that's going---going to get it arrested, or whatever. So anyway, this was mostly--my part of it was mostly the physical and so, I'd been in the Army. Then, we did training [train] through a lot of formations, and how to split a crowd and how to move them back, and you know, the use of your--your night sticks, and your--use of your gas, and you have all these different formations for different purposes. You know, if you're gonna just move people back, you use a particular formation, but what you try to do is split them and get them into smaller groups. So, you have a particular formation that you use for that. So, that was my--mainly my part of it, that if we did an awful lot of military type training, such as marching, and, you know, to--to operate as a group and. Almost like a ball team, you know, it takes everyone working together to be effective. And that's what we tried to do, and it we was [were] successful at it, I think.Ethel White 19:09
Just--
19:29
What about any physical endurance training or--.
20:49
We had an awful lot of physical. We--they talked--a lot of things, handling of
prisoners, Judo at that time, was the big thing. And we had some people, and I taught some of it, but I did not hold a belt in it, but a couple of our instructors did. But of course, then I was twenty-five, twenty-six years old and it was pretty physical. And we taught how the--proper --proper way to handle prisoners and you know, to cuff them and the proper way to fingerprint. And we had an awful lot of other type training, rather than just the mob or riot control, but that was the--the main thing at that time, was to get as many marshals trained under mob and riot control as we could. So, we could have a force of a couple--a hundred, maybe, to move in at any particular time. And it just kept getting on better. I mean, we, we eventually ended up with a special operations group for SWAT team, so to speak. And this was a very physical, but that came a long time later. I--Ethel White 22:41
I believe I saw in your scrapbook a--an award that you received for being an instructor.
Jesse Grider 22:47
I was very fortunate to--.
Ethel White 22:50
I need to press you on this [laughs].
Jesse Grider 22:50
--Receive a lot of--quite a few awards, yeah. I received one Attorney General
Bobby Kennedy.Ethel White 22:57
At this time? No this--
Jesse Grider 23:00
Shortly after.
Ethel White 23:00
Maybe a little later.
Jesse Grider 23:01
Yeah.
Ethel White 23:01
Okay, but all for training, as an instructor--.
Jesse Grider 23:05
As an instructor.
Ethel White 23:06
--So far--.
Jesse Grider 23:09
--Uh--huh--and--.
Ethel White 23:14
Why do you think you got them? Did all instructors get them?
23:21
Maybe not at the same time, but most instructors, I think did. Because we were
sort of the--the leaders, so to speak. If you had a problem and you called a group of marshals in, normally two or three, the instructors were always there. As the--sort of the supervisor are running it, then there's always people there from Justice Department that was overall in charge. But if it got down to having to get involved physically or the actual groundwork. Well, then we were--we were there to see if that was carried out and carrying it out properly.Ethel White 24:08
Now, why were you chosen to be an instructor? Do you know what?
Jesse Grider 24:11
Well, I don't know. I guess they must have liked my ability to--to do these
things. And--.Ethel White 24:25
Now you had, you had fooled around, as you called it, with the handcuffs, before
this time.Jesse Grider 24:30
Yeah, I had--.
Ethel White 24:31
So, that was one thing you had--.
Jesse Grider 24:33
--Yeah, I had fooled around with that. I guess they liked my--even though I was
young, I was very mature, I think, for my age. I don't know, I must [have] impressed them with the way I did things. I--they never told me that and I don't know why. I was honored to be selected and was proud to do it. But anyway, after El Reno, then our training and the school opening time came and went, and we were not needed in Little Rock why, after our classes were over, [clears throat] then we came on back home.Ethel White 25:26
Can I interrupt you one more time? --I would rather let you talk, but I don't
want to lose a couple things. And I wanted to ask you specifically before we move on to the other towns that---in which you found yourself, and that is, can--I mean, that's a long time ago, but can you--can you describe something of the mood. Both in the country as seen by the marshals and in the marshal service itself. In other words, here was Little Rock. Most of the desegregation incidents hadn't occurred yet. But did you all--do I infer from what you said that you had a clear sense that something bad was coming. There were going to be repetitions of Little Rock or what?Jesse Grider 25:28
Sure. Well, I didn't at the time, but I'm sure that the powers to be did, that
it looked like that you know, you were beginning to get a lot of protest or demanding of rights and so forth by the minority groups. And so, I guess the powers to be felt like this could be something that we might be involved in, and that we'd better be prepared, or the federal government had. I don't know if anything happened between that time. I don't recall of anything of significance happening. We came on back and did district work, and continued in the training, and we had no permanent school at that time. So, all we would do is hold training at federal facilities such as El Reno, on the institution grounds there. We had school in Greenville, South Carolina, at an Air Force Base. There was also a prison camp there. We had school at the United States Penitentiary in Atlanta. We had--we had school at the U.S. penitentiary, Terre Haute, Indiana, which is a federal prison located there. We had School at Fort Knox, Kentucky. I don't know this, but I like to think that it was because of my situation at the time that--. Of course, I had gotten married. This was in [the] early--60s, about '61 or whatever, and we were scheduled for some classes, and I was to be an instructor, but I had a wife and a newborn baby, and I was begging to not be sent.Ethel White 28:54
Now, you were married in 1960 but--?
Jesse Grider 28:57
Right.
Ethel White 28:57
By this time--.
Jesse Grider 28:58
--It was in '61--.
Ethel White 28:59
--It was '61.
Jesse Grider 28:59
Yeah, I'm getting a little bit ahead of the things that went on but--.
Ethel White 29:04
That's all right.
Jesse Grider 29:06
Anyway, I like to think that then they scheduled--they said, well, we--I just
didn't feel like I could be gone overnight or very far away from home. And so--the Jack Cameron, which was the associate director of the marshal service, was sort of overall in charge of training. And he said, "well, we'll see what they could do." And so, I'd like to think that the reason they set it up in Fort Knox is because I could be there, and it would be close to home, and I could commute from home. But anyway, we went on in 19 and 59, I don't recall anything happening in August.Ethel White 29:52
Can I ask you about that?
Jesse Grider 29:54
Sure.
Ethel White 29:55
There's something about somebody named 'Slippery Bill' Gully in your scrapbook.
Did you have anything to do with him.Jesse Grider 30:00
Well, that was a district--yeah, that was a district matter. He was a---an
escape artist, and I don't recall what he was charged with in the federal system, but I was in Terre Haute, Indiana, working a--on a big criminal case. Not on that case per se but handling a jury in the big criminal case. And--where they had federal court here in Louisville, and they had a--several prisoners that they were taking down to the court. The marshal service has a holdover, which is just cell blocks and only there to handle prisoners while they're waiting to go before the court. Then you might take seven or eight, ten prisoners into court at one time, and they would be arraigned and an attorney's appointed to represent them if they did not have--have attorneys. And then you would bring them back to the cell block, and the attorneys would have a chance to interview and talk to them, so forth. So, you weren't there at the time. So anyway, the--although I was in Terre Haute, I heard this and got a phone call at night, and from the courtroom up to the marshal service, which is located on the same floor at that time, the second floor of the old post office bill, now the Gene Synder Building, and there was a marshal in front, one in the center and one in the rear. And on the way from the courtroom back to the marshal service, this one prisoner ran. And they were not cuffed, which they should have been, but they weren't. Normally, you would cuff them all together, so you'd have a line of ten prisoners, and they'd all [be] cuffed together, so nobody--one could run. These weren't--they were just walking back from the courtroom to the marshal service. So, the chief deputy at that time was Everett Langford, (??) and come--to find out later, and the--and the bullet hole was still in the wall there in the old building. So, the chief deputy then took off after the 'Slippery Bill' Gully, as the press named him. Why, it was Bill Gully, and I think this was maybe his third or fourth escape or something. And going from the second floor to the first floor, he ran down those steps. Well, there's a little landing as you come off the second floor, the little landing, and then another set of steps to the first floor. And Langford shot at him as he was on that landing. Well, about the time Langford shot, Gully's feet flew out from under him, which was marble flooring, and Langford hit that wall. And the hole is--chip is still there, out of that marble, where he shot him. So, they went out the Sixth Street entrance, and Langford shot at him again and shot the glass out of the doors on Sixth Street. Again, missing 'Slippery Bill.' So, he ran him to Fourth Street and lost him. And so, of course, the FBI and everybody was out looking for him, and I don't know, I came on back from Terre Haute, from finishing my duty there. I wasn't--.Ethel White 31:25
Oh, okay.
Jesse Grider 31:44
--There at the time. And the state police had stopped a car down in western
Kentucky someplace, and it was Bill Gulley. So, the trooper, I don't know that--knew who he had at the time, but he had him in the back of the police car. And--or in the police car, and I presume, was radioing in to see if this person was wanted or whatever, and Gully took off again and got away from the trooper. And this was two or three days, and they finally found him down [in] western Kentucky someplace. And he was lodged in a local jail, and so then, we go down and get him and bring him back to Louisville to face the charge, with his original charge, plus he'd been indicted for escape and so forth. And--Ethel White 34:57
Was there anything about the jury that you were handling in--in Terre Haute,
it's worth, I mean.Jesse Grider 35:04
Well, not really.
Ethel White 35:05
Okay.
Jesse Grider 35:05
I had the one instance that got everyone all shook up, and I may have mentioned
earlier that they--we were on, I believe it was the old Lafayette--Terre Haute House, I believe, that we were housed. And we were on, I've forgotten what floor, but the U.S. attorney had a floor below, and I think we talked about that.Ethel White 35:29
Oh, this was that same one.
Jesse Grider 35:30
And then we had a fire.
Ethel White 35:30
Okay.
Jesse Grider 35:32
So anyway, then after the Gully, I think we saw the picture in the scrapbook of
myself and the marshal bringing him out after he was sentenced and getting into court, and we finally got him on to the penitentiary, and I never heard any more out of him. I don't know whatever happened to him. So then let's see, to get back to 1960, then I got married, and Barb and I were married in August 1960. I don't recall of anything exciting happening between--well, I may have. I think, not really exciting, but my first trip--was to Alcatraz was from the fall of '59 till sometime between then and August of--. No, it have to been January. I just gotten back from Alcatraz and had attended a party where I met my present wife, Barb.Ethel White 36:41
This was January of 1960.
Jesse Grider 36:42
Yeah.
Ethel White 36:43
Okay.
Jesse Grider 36:45
We had gone to Alcatraz to bring a person back.
Ethel White 36:50
Anything that--.
Jesse Grider 36:51
And we drove him by--automobile. And this was a person that was a huge, very
dangerous individual. He was from California, originally, Harold Wayne Davis. Don't see any reason why I can't use his name, [clears throat] but he had been caught in Kentucky. He had kidnapped some people--of them---. He was going to rob a service station; I think and took the young fella and some woman as hostage. And the troopers pulled up and he was holding them as hostage. And the trooper talked to him--and his brother-in-law, which was a Burton, I believe; into taking him and letting this-- couple, young couple go. Which they did, and they--. [tape cuts off]39:55
Now this, this all happened before I became a marshal. You know, I mean, one of
my first trips to Alcatraz was after I became a marshal, to pick him up and bring him back. But anyway, the reason--then he came, he and his brother-in-law came into Kentucky--into Paducah, Kentucky in a Missouri State Trooper's car. And of course, they had a--everybody in that area, including Kentucky and Illinois and Indiana, was [were] on lookout for these people. But the problem when they came into Kentucky was that they were in a Missouri State Trooper's car, and here come all the Missouri State troopers into Kentucky. And nobody knew which one was the troopers and which one was the--the criminals. They went out someplace down in the western part and kidnapped a farm camp family. And I don't know, you could go back and look at this, but they had roadblocks set up. And I don't know why this, I think it was an insurance agent, was standing at roadblock with these police officers and troopers and so forth. And some young couple, as I recall, came down the highway and saw this roadblock, but rather than get involved in it, they stopped and backed up and turned around to go back. And this civilian had nothing to do with law enforcement, and why he's there, I don't know. And whether it was his gun, his rifle, or whatever he had, or if he picked one of theirs up and shot at his car and, I think, killed the civilian, which had nothing to do--. You know, maybe the guy that had a few beers or something. I don't know what his reason was, but they saw the roadblock, and then I'm going back by the paper at this because I was a policeman in Glasgow, and we had a lookout for him, but we were so far removed, it wouldn't been likely.Jesse Grider 42:19
Anyway, then Harold Wayne, his brother-in-law, went out in some community there
and kidnapped the farm couple, and the police finally had them located and I think, and was--was moving in on them. And Burton, the brother--and one brother-in-law ran and he hid in a coal bin some place there within a few hundred yards or a mile or something. But anyway, they caught him in this coal bin. And Harold Wayne, the guy that we later went to Alcatraz to bring back, went in the back, as the police were moving in, he realized that he didn't have much of a chance. He walked out back and shot himself. So, after this of course, they got the ambulance in and got him and real--and was treated there in Paducah. An emergency situation, but he was able to travel, and it'd have been a federal offense on the kidnapping and so forth why, the Bureau of Prisons, rather than put guards on him in a civilian hospital there in the Paducah area, they--by ambulance, moved into U.S. penitentiary at Terre Haute [clears throat]. Where he was treated for his gunshot wound. He survived, of course, and came back into to Kentucky. The marshals bought him back into Kentucky, and he was--went before Judge Brooks. And Henry Brooks was U.S. district judge at the time, and Judge Brooks gave him, I think he pled guilty to this, and Brooks gave him a life sentence. Well, at that time, the life--federal life sentence, you had to serve fifteen years before you were eligible for parole. And the Bureau of Prisons, ordered him--committed directly to Alcatraz, which is very seldom ever done.Ethel White 44:36
Why was that?
Jesse Grider 44:38
He was wanted in California for murder. He'd killed a policeman there, I think.
And a motorcycle policeman, and where in California, I don't know, but he--he had robbed a place, I think. And this motorcycle policeman had no idea, and just-- he came around the corner. Davis evidently thought he was after him for robbing the place, and the motorcycle officer didn't even know what was going on, and so Davis shot him.Ethel White 45:13
So Alcatraz is for the worst.
Jesse Grider 45:16
Worst offenders. You just did not commit normally, directly--marshals did not
commit directly to Alcatraz. Normally, those people in Alcatraz were moved from some of your other maximum-security prisons--prisons. But anyway, then after I became a marshal, then in '58, would have been in the early I guess, '60 he had filed for a writ. That he was brought back here and sentenced, and he pled guilty and really was not in the proper frame of man or had just gotten out of the hospital and blah, blah, blah. A lot of reasons why he was tacking in the sentence on the on 22, 55 of them. So, he was ordered and returned here and so, we drove out and got him. At that time, I don't know who the warden was, but said that he had rather see anybody on that rock taken off of there, other than Harold Wayne. Because he was really a bad, bad customer. So anyway, we the two, two of us drove out, and then the marshal himself flew out and rode back with us.Ethel White 45:17
Offenders. So now, who was the who was the other deputy?
Jesse Grider 46:42
Gilbert Bryant.
Ethel White 46:47
Gilbert.
Jesse Grider 46:47
Um-hmm. and we were in Gilbert's car. So, when you're moving across the country
with federal prisoners, you have a book of federal approved jails, and only those jails, could you put a federal prisoner in. And these were jails that had been inspected and approved by the Bureau of Prisons. So, you're coming out--when you're moving and going out west, as you know, if you've driven by automobile out that way, that you might have to drive six or seven hundred miles, from city to another. And particularly when you were limited to the type of jail that you could put these people in. He gave us no trouble. We, of course--we leg ironed, and waist chained him and this sort of thing, which stayed on him until--from morning till night. We put him on the inside of the jail, and we didn't take them off until we got inside of the next jail that night. And we were on the road maybe five, six days from San Francisco, And you could of probably made it sooner, but you have to realize that you have to stop, and these people have to use restrooms, or you have to feed them and that sort of thing. But they do this with the waist chains and leg irons and the cuffs on. You don't take those off for any reason, particularly a guy like this. We brought him back, and he--think his writ was of course denied. And I don't remember what attorney represented him at the time. Oh, I'll tell you, it was Frank Haddad. And--because I laugh about it today. When this guy, when we got him off, and I didn't know Frank, when we got him off of the island, which we--you of course, go by boat. And when we got off the boat and put him in the car, and this was done by Bureau Prison people and Gilbert and myself [me] and the marshal. And once we got on that mainland well, he was all ours. The Bureau of Prison had no authority or jurisdiction. And the first thing he said was that he wanted to know if he could pick his own attorney, "and I don't get (??) one." Says, "well, not usually, the courts appoint an attorney from a list." Which, that time attorneys were not paid. He says, "well, I don't want any attorney. I want Frank Haddad. Well, here's the guy [chuckles] that had, as far as I knew, had not been--no connections or been in Louisville or anything else. And I thought, who in the hell is this Frank Haddad. You know, here's a guy from California getting him out of Alvarez, and of course, Haddad at that time was fairly young, starting practicing and but he must have had a reputation awful early. So anyway, when he got back, he, I think Brooks, did you know, rather than ask Frank, and Frank agreed to do it. Of course, there was no money or no fee. And---but I was thinking on the way back, I got to know who this Haddad is he must be something else. [laughter] And, but Judge Brooks called Frank and and Frank did agree to represent him, although he was not on the list of appointed attorneys or didn't do that, but as a friend of the court why, he did represent Harold Wayne. And he--we ended up--he was denied, of course, and, and, but we sent him--we did not take him back to Alcatraz. We took him to Leavenworth, Kansas, which is a maximum-security prison. And I don't know whatever--I never heard it more about him. I don't know whether he finished that life sentence, or whether he even lived through it, or whether he's back in California on a murder charge or. And I was going through his file the first night why, in the motel room. I was looking through his file and he had some pretty vicious--he's sort of a wild type of person. I he--had been sentenced to—for, I don't know, so many months, and I don't know whether this is proper to say this or not, but for--one of them was biting his wife's breast off. You know [laughs]--you know, I mean, he was just a wild individual, but I never heard any more from him, so I don't know what happened to him. But anyway, and then that must have been January. So, at a party in January, I had met my present wife, Barbara.Ethel White 52:24
And her name at that time?
Jesse Grider 52:25
Mann, M-A-N-N-. She was from, she was teaching school here in Louisville, but
she was originally from Cumberland County, and her father was in the--in the state senate. He may have been in the house at that time and was later elected to the senate from Cumberland County, Monroe, Cumberland, Russell, down in that area. And it was--oh, I don't want to get into it. But anyway, I had--Barb, my wife was there with a date, and she had a friend that they roomed together, that was also a teacher, and they were, I guess, looking for a date for the friend. And Barbara tells this better than I, but Pat's just sitting in there, and I knew that Barbara's date. He was from Glasgow, so I knew him. And Pat said, "well, there, this is Barbara's friend. There's a fellow that I might be interested in dating. “And so, Barbara's date said, "well, I know him." So, I went over to the table, and [he] introduced me. And we chatted a while, but I ended up taking Barbara home and her date [chuckles] ended up taking the girl that I--they were trying to fix me up with. But anyway, then we got married in August in 1960 and we had--it wasn't really much of a honeymoon, but I had taken a week off, and we'd gotten married in southern Illinois, and I made the mistake, I guess, of calling my office. We were sort of working our way back to Louisville anyway, but they had called and wanted me back immediately that I had--I was calling was to be--to be in New Orleans on so and so date. That--so, I came on back two or three days early and immediately, then taking off to--to New Orleans. That--Judge J. [James] Skelly Wright was U.S. district judge at that time in New Orleans and had to order the city of New Orleans to integrate their public schools. And I don't recall how many marshals were in there because we were scattered out. We were having to stay of course, in motels, hotels and whatever. But they was--I'm guessing, but I would say probably sixty or eighty marshals maybe called in there.Ethel White 53:04
In the motel?
Jesse Grider 55:20
No.
Ethel White 55:32
In New Orleans.
Jesse Grider 55:34
In near--to New Orleans. And then I--and along with, although we went separate
schools, there was about eight of us, I think, that were selected to--to take this, these two children into two separate schools.Ethel White 56:04
Well now when you got there, had there been any violence or any demonstrations, or?
Jesse Grider 56:08
No, no. I mean not that I know of.
Ethel White 56:10
Okay, you were just there as precautionary at that point.
56:13
Yeah, and well, that, that the judge wanted us to take those children to school---.
Jesse Grider 56:20
--Just in case. But in the meantime, there was an awful lot of, I think Jimmy
Davis was a governor of Louisiana at the time. And didn't he write, "You are My Sunshine," or he was some sort of songwriter. Back before he became governor, but the state legislature was in session, and he was fighting the desegregation order of Judge Wright. And they were passing bills left and right in Baton Rouge, which is about eighty miles in New Orleans. And we were having--Judge Wright was signing orders declaring their--the state legislature's bills unconstitutional. So, we had about four marshals that were keeping the road--. She'll get that (??).Ethel White 56:20
Okay. Okay.
Jesse Grider 57:22
Keep the road hot running between New Orleans and Baton Rouge. And they were,
these were local marshals Louisiana marshals.Ethel White 57:30
The local marshals were running back and forth.
57:33
Back and forth.
Ethel White 57:33
Okay.
Jesse Grider 57:33
To serve these orders on the governor and the powers to be in Baton Rouge, which
is the capital of Louisiana. And they'd get back and they'd pass another one and just write and then strike this. So, this went on several days, and it came the day for the schools to open. And on a Sunday, before they were to open, [clears throat]. There was [were] eight of us I think, with a local driver. Chosen to forward--to each school with a child and a local driver, and that we were to take these two children in--their respective schools. Sunday afternoon the--Judge Wright--we went and met judge Wright in his office, in the federal courthouse there in New Orleans. And of course, the governor and the power, state powers were threatening to arrest anyone that had anything to do with bringing these children into their schools. And this was all in the newspaper on the TV and so forth. And Judge Wright says that he wanted us to be sure that everyone there knew who we were and that we had a copy of this order. His order--order ordering these children to attend those schools. And to make sure that we had proper ID where everyone could see it, and that if we were arrested, that he assured us that he would get us out of jail [laughs]. And it's--I was thinking to myself, you can't get us out of jails, you don't know where we are. I'm going to writ--(??) you got to be directed to the keeper or the jailer, the keeper of the institution. And they would move you around so fast, they couldn't get them--they never would find in those parishes down there.Ethel White 1:00:03
You knew this, I mean.
Jesse Grider 1:00:04
Well, I was thinking this.
Ethel White 1:00:04
You were aware at the time.
Jesse Grider 1:00:05
And, but I--it was part of the job. And I thought they're not gonna arrest me.
I'm not going in any jail. And of course, I guess the worst thing could have happened, if it had gotten where I had to hurt someone rather than to go why, it would have been a pretty bad situation, I'm sure. But anyway, the city of New Orleans, which the police department, which was better than a lot of other places that we had to go [to] later. The chief came on T.V. and says that--this was on the weekend. That the city police, the city of New Orleans, had nothing to do with carrying out any federal court order, and they were not carrying out any federal court order, but it was their responsibility to keep peace and quiet in their city. And that they were going to do that regardless of what was going on, but they wanted the citizens to know that it was not--that they were not carrying out any federal court order. And he was a very strong, tough chief. I had read some about him prior to going down there, but and then after reading in the newspaper and watching him on T.V., he was a pretty--he was a cop. I mean, he was a good policeman. And of course, in New Orleans, they'll use the horses for mob control and Mardi Gras and this sort of thing. So, 100,000 people didn't mean much to them as far as trying to handle crowds. And, Monday morning, a local marshal, drove myself and two other, three others, I guess, to the--. Well, we were in two cars, as I recall. I was in the car with the young lady. I went to the--and drove us out to the house, and the young girl was dressed and ready for school, and we got in the front car.Ethel White 1:02:48
Did you know her name at the time?
Jesse Grider 1:02:49
No, well, I knew it, but I had forgotten. I mean, I was told of course there.
And then I talked to her a little bit before we left, while her parents, her mother was particularly, was standing there. You know and she was, I don't think she really realized what was going on so much, but I assured that we--.Ethel White 1:03:12
She didn't seem nervous or--.
Jesse Grider 1:03:14
No, she seemed to be very calm. I don't think she realized, you know, the full
impact of what was going on. So anyway when we get to our school--.Ethel White 1:03:28
Can I just interrupt you a minute? How about the mother? What was she--how did
she see?Jesse Grider 1:03:34
Very calm. She--she believed in what was, what was going on, and she thought it
was, I remember the way she talked, that it was the best for her child, and the only thing she wanted is the best education she could get for her. And a very nice lady. So, we pull up from our school and, I mean, there was a mob. [chuckles] Thousands of people. [coughs]Ethel White 1:04:08
Were you prepared for that?
Jesse Grider 1:04:10
Well, I was prepared for some problems, but not that many, I don't think. And I
thought, well, you know, my job is to protect this young lady, and I will do that to the best of my ability. And so, when you see the picture of Norman Rockwell, that is not the way that we went in the school. I You always keep yourself between the individual you're trying to protect and those that are trying to harm them, and so you wouldn't have--no marshal with any proper training would have left that girl in between four marshals and open to the crowd, you know. So, you kept the child to your--your body between she and the mob. You couldn't--you could make sure that she wasn't going to get hit with anything, but you could not keep her from hearing some of the things that she was being called and what we were being called, and so forth. But the police were there--.Ethel White 1:05:25
Not repeatable, I assume.
Jesse Grider 1:05:26
Not repeatable, it was just everything you could imagine. The police were there,
and they were on their horses, and we go in the school. The police the principal, the vice principal, and several other people were standing inside the door and greeted us. We had--I had an armband on stating 'United States Marshal.' I had a badge on my coat lapel, the United States Marshals badge, so there'd be no doubt as to who I was. And--.Ethel White 1:06:09
How are you greeted?
Jesse Grider 1:06:13
Nice. I mean, the principal introduced himself and introduced us to the--myself
and other two or three marshals, and there are two other people. And I noticed one fellow standing back to the side in a suit, and I went over to him, asked him who he was. And he said he was a state trooper, and sort of raised his arms and says, "I'm not armed." And I said, "well, what are you doing here?" And he said, "observing." And I says, "well, if you observe, you have to observe outside, and you can't stay in the school." And he walked out, and I thought to myself, when he said he wasn't on, this guy's a patsy, I don't have worry about him, you know. [chuckles] He was afraid I was going to shoot him or something [laughs]. So anyway, then the teacher and I and the young lady walked down to the classroom. There was [were] no other students in there--in the school that I could see. We go in the classroom, and the teacher starts teaching, just as if it was a full class of students there. And I could hear all this noise from the street, but from the classroom, I couldn't see it. And I sit [sat] in the back of the classroom, and I would go out to the back door and into the corridor and look out the window. I was facing the mob, which was the--this window was on the front part of the school. And I would stand there a few minutes and watch the police, and which they handled great. A lot of these people, after they started busting them up and getting them--moving them out, there was a little drug store, or grocery store, as I recall, on the corner. And one policeman went in there and ordered everybody out, and another policeman on a horse was standing--his horse, on his horse, standing in front of this little drug store or grocery. And as these people would come out, that horse [laughs] why, would take his head and knock one--one way, and the next one'd come out, he'd knock the others. So, that horse was separating them and keeping them from getting back together and forming another mob. And to watch those horses working in a crowd control was beautiful. I mean, they just--that policeman could get that horse moving sideways, and you take a 2,000-pound horse and him sidestepping on you and using his whole body to push you well, he can move a lot of people and plus, you certain scared he's gonna step on your foot or something. You know what damage [they] you can do. So, when those horses wanted to move you, they'd move you. And then at lunchtime, then they were--still little groups would form and get back and the policemen were all day, you know, keeping these groups from getting too big, and keeping them small, where you can handle them a lot easier. And at lunchtime, then I think the young girl had her lunch. I'm really not sure, but we went down to the lunchroom. And in the lunchroom, here was all these policemen. Well, I knew there were some in the school in their riot gear, but they were completely out of sight of the civilians or citizens, and they were there as a backup in an emergency in case they needed more policemen out front. They had nothing say to me. I would speak, they wouldn't speak, and I'm sure resented what was going on, and the majority of them did. But we sat, and the little girl had her lunch, and we used our thirty-minute lunch period, and I--of course, was going to sit with her (??) and I took her back up the classroom. And then after--that afternoon and class was out why, we walked out the front door, and we didn't sneak in or out. I did have the--- had gone in there and knew the emergency exits and how to get out of there, other ways than the front door, should it become necessary. 1:00