Oral History Interview with Jesse Grider, January 26, 1995

Jesse Grider 00:01

Today is January the 26th 1995, approximately 10:30 am. I am continuing the interview, which we last did in April of 1994. I believe we left off on the--speaking of the federal judges. And I had become Clerk of the Court January of 1977. I think I probably mentioned this, but at that time, Rhodes Bratcher was the chief judge and Charles Allen was the next senior judge. Judge [James Fleming] Gordon was--well, actually, I guess Judge Gordon was still the chief judge and--but he stepped down shortly thereafter, and Judge Bratcher became the chief judge. I probably got---I was fond of all of them, or most of them, but I probably got closer to Tom Ballantine [more] than any of other. He was more like a brother than--to me. We normally had lunch together every day, and there was--every day he would come in my office and if there was any business to discuss why, we discussed it, and if not, well, we talked about basketball or whatever. He was kind of a UK fan and so was I.

Jesse Grider 01:38

Then he became ill, and I think this was in the summer of, July of '91 and he came in complaining about--he just didn't have any energy, and so forth, but he had gone to the doctor. And things--they put him in the hospital to run tests, and it must have been for July, because I think it was July then when he called me to--to the hospital. And let me know that it was--what he thought it possibly was, that it was cancer, and they were going to start treatment and so forth--and cancer of the lungs. He continued as chief judge, during this treatment, he would come in quite a bit. Practically every day, he'd come in for a while, after they put him on the outpatient treatment and finally, I had been over to see him, and he asked me to stay around--because of the medication, he was a home.

Jesse Grider 02:52

He wasn't sure what he might do, or he didn't want to make any mistakes. And so---and for me to be sure and watch his work when he came out, which I did. --And--he came in one day and really looked bad, and I had been over to talk to him and left his chamber and went back to my office, and I walked into my office, and they called me to get over there right away, and he had passed out--at his desk. So anyway, we got him to the hospital. From that time on, he never did come back in, and then eventually died. Well, let's back up a little bit. He realized then that he could no longer hold the chief judgeship, which is the chief administrative officer of the courts. And the clerk dealt directly with the chief judge, moreso than the other district judges.

Jesse Grider 03:52

So, in around October, I think he stepped down as chief judge and Ron Meredith was next in line to become chief judge, which he did. And I think this was about October of '91 and he had had some health problems and had been to all sorts of clinics all over the country with some pain up his back and in his shoulders. And Mayo's [Mayo Clinic] and someplace, up in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in a clinic up there, maybe to Seattle, Washington, and New Orleans, and just all over the country, and they never found anything. Finally, in--'92, I guess, in the summer of '92, he had surgery for cancer and--- pancreas [pancreatic] cancer, and he asked me, then--to not to--be gone because him being the new chief judge, and then with this problem, also that he felt I should be there to--to handle the administrative business of the courts.

Jesse Grider 05:14

And he was in and out, mostly out, during this time. He would come in and trial cases and handle them, but he wasn't in day in and day out, for two years, I guess. Then I had some health problems, and even though I---it was bad timing, and I didn't want to do it, I and felt that I had to retire and I could no longer do the business, and I had many vacations and had some health problems also. So, had I called the--Judge Meredith and we had gone to--that I need to see him at his home. --And we went to lunch, and I told him that I--it was time that I was going to have to retire. I had some problems, and I just could no longer function. And he of course, [was] trying to talk me out of it, but he understood. And so, I retired then in January 1994. And stayed in touch and still do with the judges, most of them. Particularly Judge Allen and of course, Judge Meredith died, then in December of '94. Just less--a little less than a year after I retired.

Jesse Grider 06:52

And Charles Simpson is---people refer to him as Chuck Simpson. And he was Charles Simpson III, I think, is now the chief judge. In the meantime, [John G.] Heyburn II came on the bench, just the year before I left. They have another new judge now, in Paducah, now that Johnstone took senior status, and I went down for his swearing in. And Judge [Thomas B.] Russell, which happens to be from the same hometown that I'm from, and his father was--had a little bit to do with me becoming--with the federal system. His father was a mailman in Glasgow, and which I knew they were looking for someone, and he happened to be at this person's place of business and mentioned my name. And so, the guy called me, and that's how it all got started. But anyway, I think he's going to be an excellent judge. I think Judge Heyburn--has been an excellent judge and judge Simpson, but they're a different breed. They're not--they're not the --well, I don't know how to describe it. They're not the 'gentleman judges,' as Barbara says, that the older judges were. And of course, that's true with all generations. [chuckles] Yes, as the new younger ones come in, they have their way of doing things and--and changing things. And I guess you see that in the Congress now--of the United States, so.

08:48

Can you define any of those changes of the judges anymore?

Jesse Grider 08:52

Well, just--just the way they're--I don't know. I guess you'd refer to them as more gung-ho, you know, I mean they--. Now I had the pleasure of being there during--oh gosh why, Judge [Roy Mahlon] Shelbourne was chief judge when I came to work in that building. Judge [Henry Luesing] Brooks then became chief judge, Judge Gordon became chief judge, Judge Bratcher, Judge Allen, Judge Johnstone, Judge Ballantine, and then judge Meredith. So, I did have the pleasure of working with those and Judge Gordon and I were very close friends, even though we were different politically. He--I always felt like his bark was worse than his bite. He--we were very close friends and Barbara, and I did go to Florida and visit him, and spent a couple of days with him--his wife before he died then. And--.

Ethel White 10:14

Can you spent a little time, [clears throat] excuse me, the last time, describing some of the other judges, like--like Judge Allen, Judge Gordon. --Can you describe or tell a story or two about Judge Ballantine, and then Judge Meredith? Anything to give us a feel of what they were like.

Jesse Grider 10:34

Well, Judge Meredith is--was more down-to-earth, type of individual you had ever met. He--he was very friend--a shy person, really, but he was very friendly with everyone. Whether it was the guards on the door or the janitors or whoever. Everybody like Tom Ballantine, everyone in that building. He always had time to talk to them and tease with them, and he was just a really down-to-earth, lockable individual. Of course, I had known the Ballantines for years. I knew his father, not very well, but I knew his father, and I knew Jack real[ly] well. Jack was a law clerk when I came in the building for Judge Brooks. Jack is his brother, Bill, I didn't know that well, his other brother, but I did know--and I got to know Nancy very well, and she's a fine lady. And the children, they were all just great people and fun to be around with and--.

Jesse Grider 11:56

Now, Judge Ballantine is just hard to describe. He was just an everyday type of individual, and he, I felt like was an excellent judge. He always felt like Charles Allen was probably one of the smartest judges that had [has] ever sat on that bench. And I remember one time when they--when they came out with the rating that the Louisville bar does on the judiciary, they do that every so often on the federal judges also. That I think they had Johnstone maybe, and Ballantine both rated a little bit higher than Judge Allen. And Ballantine said, "Charles Allen's forgotten more law than most [chuckles]--the rest of us know." And I know there was an awful lot of respect there between Ballantine and Allen and Johnstone and Allen. In fact, I think they all had a lot of respect for Judge Allen. --He was a different, absent-minded professor type person, [chuckles] except when it come[s] to law judge Allen would admit himself that--and I did hear him---he received an award from the University of Louisville Law School and I attended, and he---he'd admit that he was born with a little silver spoon in his mouth. And a lot of things about life that he never had to be concerned with. But he knows this, and he was a guy that was a person that would [was] asking you how to handle things. He was never telling you, if there's an administrative problem. With the courts or signing cases and so forth. He would never tell you to do this or do that. He would just call you up and ask--ask the clerk of the court and ask me, how--what I should--what he should do. And Judge Meredith

Jesse Grider 14:13

[Tape cuts off]

Jesse Grider 14:24

I never got--of course, I knew Judge Meredith before he became the United States Attorney, vaguely. And then when he became a federal judge. I didn't know him as well, we became friends, but he was a different breed. Of course, he was very young at the time he came on the bench, and you know, didn't have the experience. I mean, you know, like Judge Ballantine came from the state court, Johnstone came [from] the state court and Judge Allen from the state. Of course, they had the experiences--the judiciary. --And Judge Meredith didn't have that experience, but he learned from the bench. And unfortunately, he got sick and was not able to perform as well as I'm sure he would have, had he not had this illness, after he became chief judge.

Jesse Grider 15:28

I was very fortunate that all the judges, and that's not true in all districts, but all the judges in this district let me run the clerk's office. They did not interfere with--with the operation the clerk's office. And all of them had told me that they didn't condition--. I didn't ask for the job, they asked me to take the job, under the condition that I take it, that I'll be the clerk, not a figurehead, and then I would run the clerk's office. And one of the purposes, they said they wanted me, that they didn't want to run it, and that they wanted someone there to--and this held true with all the judges. I never had a minute’s problem with any of the chief judges trying to--to run the clerk's office. So, that's not true in a lot of districts, because [in] a lot of districts, the chief judge does run everything. As far as even hiring and but I did not have that problem with any of--any of the judges. I really can't--I don't have anything bad to say about any of them. I mean, others I knew better than--got closer to than some and but from what I read and hear, it seems that Judge--Judge Heyburn is becoming (??) an excellent judge, and so is Judge Simpson. Now, I was with--Judge Simpson was on the bench four or five years before I left, but he--and I had known him for a number of years, as a practicing attorney.

Jesse Grider 17:12

I--and guess that's about it. I think in maybe backtracking, I had an awful lot of other duties as assigned. Which is always the bottom line in the job description is. I sat on a lot of panels selecting marshals for promotion, deputy marshals to supervisors or the chief deputies. I went all over the country on the--with an interviewing panel, which is normally made up of two deputy marshals or two marshals, and--plan--and a personnel officer. I had to take two weeks of civil service training on interviewing before I was appointed to that panel. And we'd go such places as Hartford, Connecticut and Buffalo, New York, Miami. Just wherever the most applicants was [were] within a couple of hundred-mile radius, we'd have these applicants to come in for an interview. And--.

Ethel White 18:28

What were you looking for?

Jesse Grider 18:30

Deputy marshals.

Ethel White 18:31

But what are the qualities you look for in a deputy marshal?

Jesse Grider 18:34

Well, it--so much in the hiring I've always felt like, is just a gut feeling. You know, an individual can look awful[ly] good on paper. I would just like to get them talking, and we were looking for education, which most of this stuff would show up on the paper before they would get to that step. And then just a person's attitude on law enforcement. You know if---you didn't want some guy just because he's always wanted to carry a gun, or some gun freak or [laughs] something. You're looking for an individual with level-headed and sensible answers and common sense. You know, some of the-- some of the best marshals that we had, I guess, were more than high school graduates. And, not saying that, that the education wasn't certainly important, but it wasn't really all of it. And that holds true with the deputy clerks, you know, some of the best deputy clerks that I had were--only had a little college, if any---but they were very good employees. I said, and I--I helped organize, as I stated earlier, the Special Operations Group, which is a--sort of a SWAT team. I continued to be involved in that when we were called out to different places such as Wounded Knee. You know, I mean, I was court security in Washington at the time, but they did ask me to go to Wounded Knee and be one of two or three supervisors and trying to carry out that duty.

Jesse Grider 20:27

But it started before the court security program in 1971, is that right?

Jesse Grider 20:32

No, I was in Washington at the time, Wounded Knee?

Ethel White 20:34

No, I mean the Special Operations Group.

Jesse Grider 20:36

--Oh, yeah--.

Ethel White 20:37

--You helped run--.

Jesse Grider 20:37

--That started, yeah, back gosh, I don't remember when we formed that, '69, 70, maybe. We were--had been through all of this, and we really hadn't--. We--the director at that time. Wayne Colbrun, felt like that we should have a group of selected people that would be available on emergency situations. It seemed like we were constantly getting called out for something, and he wanted them well-trained, uniformed, some of the best equipment you could get. So, this--he had known myself and the Whitworth--Bill Whitworth, which later became the marshal in South Carolina, to set this up and set the training.

Jesse Grider 21:37

And so, we did, and I think the first group we had forty, maybe we graduated ten. It was really tough, a lot of them dropped out because they couldn't do it physically but, when we ended up---we ended up with a---Class A group of marshals that could respond. And it was all typical law enforcement training. You know, being able to do one hundred push-ups and not fear of height[s] and come down out of the choppers on ropes. And we really had a--and we later set up a school in Louisiana. A permanent school, which then was to train constantly--train the Special Operations Group, and as far as I know, that's still in existence.

Jesse Grider 22:34

Backtracking a little bit and getting on court security, I--I had mentioned in an earlier tape, I think, that I had gone to Los Angeles for the Sirhan Sirhan trial, and the George Manson, I believe. At first, I had nothing to do with officially, I was only there as observant for the security purposes. In situations where it became necessary in the federal courts to handle unruly defendants, which it did later. And ---we set up such devices as we could keep them in another room, completely away from the courtroom.

Jesse Grider 23:15

We could have the defense attorney able to communicate with the defendant. The defendant could hear everything that was being said in the courtroom but was located in such a--in a location where it could not disrupt the--the court. We did this by remote control radios and earphones with speakers. We have had some that we--we had to keep in leg irons and waste chains, because they were too bad to--to have in the courtroom. They were very disruptive; besides the security risk, the judges didn't want the jury to see them in leg irons and waste chains and so forth. So, we would keep them in another room, but them [they were] able to keep up with what was going on in the court. We had this a number of times. You know, I think I mentioned the Berrigan trials, the brothers up in Connecticut, New Jersey--.

Ethel White 24:37

--Were they unruly?

Jesse Grider 24:37

--Or wherever, they were, not unruly, a lot of their followers were, outside of the building. A few times, you would have one that would get in and cause a little disruption in the courtroom, but not too much. Most of theirs was outside, protesting, chaining themselves around the building and that sort of thing.

Ethel White 24:58

How did you handle them? Was it like the march on the Pentagon?

Jesse Grider 25:01

--We didn't, yeah, we didn't bother them, as long as they, you know, most of the time, the local--if there was arrest necessary, local police would make the arrest. And we felt like it was a local matter, as long it was outside of the building and not in---on the property of the federal court. So, we had the equipment, and we came up then, after I became court security, I came up with a package, which we kept mobile, and we had about six kits. I refer to as kits, they were large packages, suitcases of all this equipment. Video equipment, radio communications that I could ship anywhere in the country to set this up if necessary. And which I did, if we'd have a trial in Miami that they needed this equipment or--then I would ship it to Miami, or have it shipped from Washington to Miami.

Jesse Grider 26:05

Sometime[s], I would go--in the system, and sometime[s] I would just ship it and some local marshal or--. Of course, I had eleven circuit coordinators, one in each circuit at that time, that worked for me. And I would send a package to them, and they, in turn, would get it to the district within that particular circuit. For instance, Kentucky, being the sixth circuit, I had a court security man in Cincinnati that represented me within the sixth circuit, which included Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee. So, anything that could come up within this circuit why, I would contact him, send him into the district to see what was needed and so forth. And then he would get back with me, and I would, if they needed extra people or equipment or whatever, then I would write it up in Washington and get the people into whatever was necessary.

Ethel White 27:14

Anything in the package besides radio and video.

Jesse Grider 27:18

Well, we kept lots of different weapons that--which was [were] normally never shipped. We would hand carry those by trunk. And then to fly, at that time, of course, there was a lot of hijacking and the planes and so forth, and they had, I think we covered this some. That they had the Air Marshals, which the United States Marshals were not part of. Our--our philosophy was that you had to catch them on the ground. If you got in the air, you--and they hijacked the plane, there just wasn't much, even if you had an armed guy up there. But at that time, if we were flying, transporting a prisoner or flying for any reason, where were armed, I always identified myself with the pilot and some pilots would be glad you were aboard, and some would request you leave your weapon in the cockpit. Very few, but every once in a while, they didn't--they were uncomfortable with somebody back there with a weapon.

Jesse Grider 28:22

But most of the pilots would--was [were] glad you were there, and they'd want to know what seat you were in and for security--or purposes if something happened. Normally, if you had a prisoner and you were transporting them why, you would get on the plane first, and of course, you would identify that you had a prisoner. You couldn't let them wear handcuffs or leg irons and so forth, so you were limited to the type of prisoner that you would want to fly. Then we later got our own plane, and we didn't have to do as much. You still do some commercial but--not like we did then. We didn't do it all that much but on emergencies--situation, somebody had to be in court and the only way we could get them there in time, of course, was flying. Well, that's--we would do it, but we didn't like to do it because of the security.

Jesse Grider 29:30

And I mean, and I think one of the--at the time, I can't think of the guy's now--the director--of the Marshal Service, Jim McShane at that time, had gone to Israel or someplace over there. And brought this guy back, and he stabbed himself. You know, he was eating (??) that up--that got a lot of publicity, at the time. He was eating meat, and the director, which was an ex-policeman from New York, should have known better, but let him have a steak knife and he stabbed himself or something. They had to land in Germany or some other country to get him to the hospital. And of course, he had to go back through the whole shebang to get him extradited from that country once that plane lands. I can't think of the case now, but it was one--it was just something I don't, I don't know. I just can't remember. But it was--amounted--it got an awful lot of bad publicity. And he and another guy, another marshal had flown over there to get him. Why he went, I don't know, it wasn't---I guess, publicity or something, but he got--he ended up getting bad publicity on it.

Jesse Grider 30:45

That brings up the matter of arrests. Did you say, did I understand you correctly earlier to say that the marshals could arrest without warrants.

Jesse Grider 30:55

Right. They--.

Ethel White 30:57

--Can you talk about that a little bit.

Jesse Grider 30:58

--At that time, they were the only law enforcement agency of the federal government, IRS [Internal Revenue Service] agents had no arresting power.

Ethel White 31:11

--Who was that?

Jesse Grider 31:11

The IRS, Internal Revenue--.

Ethel White 31:15

--Oh--.

Jesse Grider 31:15

--Intelligence, they called them, the intelligence section. That's why I would have to go--or I did go on a lot of raids with them on tax purposes, because they had no arresting power and there was always--had to be a marshal along to make the rest, unless the FBI has certain statutory jurisdiction. The Secret Service has certain statute--statute jurisdiction. And then United States Marshals could arrest for any offense, whether it was the FBI--a violation of the FBI statute--the FBI and jurisdiction of the Secret Service or IRS, or the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs [now known as the Drug Enforcement Administration].

Ethel White 32:04

But why didn't you have to have a warrant?

Jesse Grider 32:08

Well, you---you just didn't. If you saw a crime committed, you didn't---you needed no warrant. You could--.

Ethel White 32:16

--Oh, I see.

Jesse Grider 32:16

--Make an arrest without a warrant. I thin--now, some of that has changed. Now, I think at one time, the FBI had complete jurisdiction on escapees and fugitives, but I think now the marshals may have that. I'm not certain of that, but I think they changed that statute to give (??) to the marshals. Certain other statutory authority, taking it away from the FBI, and some of the other. And there was always a little bit of jealousy, like any--any situation between all the government agencies, there was a little bit of jealousy of getting in someone's territory.

Jesse Grider 33:11

[Tape cuts off].

Jesse Grider 33:12

I--by closing, I presume we're about to close. I--if I had my life---now that I'm retired and I'm sixty-two years old, fairly good health, and if I had my life to do over with again, I--certainly a lot of things I've done, I would have done differently, but I would not have chosen any other profession, and I loved it. Some of the happiest times in my life, and it certainly wasn't in it for the money, was with being in the United States Marshal Service, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The clerk's job was an excellent position. It--you went from being active to more of a paper shuffler, but--and that took some adjusting, but I certainly enjoyed that At the time I left the Marshall service why, it was--it was really hard to do, but I felt it was the thing to do for my family and--but as I say, if I had to do it over with again, I wouldn't change my career whatsoever. Certainly, a lot of things I would have done different than I did, but I guess they all turned out fairly well.

Ethel White 34:33

Thanks a lot. It has been great.

Ethel White 34:34

[Tape cuts off].

Ethel White 34:34

[End of interview].