Transcript
Index
0:00
Ethel White 00:02
It's now the 26th of May 1994 and we were talking about miner strikes and---and
I thought maybe you could talk a little bit about anything else on that subject, particularly in Kentucky or nearby.00:20
Well, of course, most of the--most of the mining in western Kentucky is strip
mining. West Virginia was underground mining. Not that that makes a lot of difference, they're all United Mine Workers. We did have an awful lot of strikes in western Kentucky. Judge [James F.] Gordon normally handled those as the city judge in Owensboro, which was a division that most of these--strip mining was located in. [clears throat] He--he had a way of working people pretty well, and we just didn't have an awful lot of trouble. He would call these---.Ethel White 01:10
--He, meaning Judge Gordon.
Jesse Grider 01:10
--Judge Gordon would call these union leaders, we'd go out and slap injunctions
on them, or slap them on them--serve injunctions on them and get them into court. And Judge Gordon always seemed to be able to work things out. He was quite a negotiator in getting people's heads together and with no misunderstanding that who was in charge. He--he didn't have to say anything about that, you just knew it when you walked in the room with him. If you had known him--I don't know how long you have known him but, if you had known him back in his earlier years, he was--he was quite a fellow. He was very strong, knowledgeable, direct. You always knew where you stood with him. If he said something, his word was his bond and he--he was just an ideal judge, in my opinion. Not that we--we had an awful lot of good judges, but Judge Gordon just seemed like he was born to be a judge [chuckles]. I think he's typical of a person that you would think should be a judge if he wasn't.Jesse Grider 02:33
Anyway, we served an awful lot of injunctions, but he would usually negotiate
those things out, and we didn't have an awful lot of problems in western Kentucky, I think because of him. I also had to go over to the Charleston powder plant [Also known as the Indiana Army Ammunition Plant] . They was [were] on strike there, and I went over to carry out a federal court order from the Southern District of Indiana to assist the marshal in the Southern District of Indiana, out of Indianapolis. And we didn't do an awful lot there. Again, they were trying to stop the trains from coming and going in out of the plant. And we just made sure that no one interfered with, with the movement of trains and trucks and so forth, that was [were] coming in and out. And we were--I was over there maybe four or five days, and during the day mostly. And I don't recall any others that I was involved in, strike wise, other than the West Virginia and the Ironton, Ohio and the Kentucky western and southern Indiana, Charleston powder plant. And that's about the extent of our involvement. I guess the big one was the--the coal mine strike in West Virginia. I think I said before, it had nothing to do with the mining company. It had something to do with the schools and the books that they were introducing to the--into the schools.Ethel White 04:18
About Judge Gordon, I think you mentioned briefly to me, off--off the recorder,
that he knew some of these people that he had to negotiate with. And could you just--.Jesse Grider 04:33
--Well--.
Ethel White 04:33
--Mention that.--
Jesse Grider 04:33
--Judge Gordon was a--Judge Gordon was an--a practicing attorney in western
Kentucky for a number of years. He knew everybody in western Kentucky. He had been involved in politics, and I think he was--managed, maybe Happy Chandler's at one time. I think that there was some mention for him running for the United States Senate in Kentucky, at one time. Either doing [Lyndon] Johnson or [Hubert] Humphrey's. I think it was in Johnson's administration and--but Humphrey was running for president.Jesse Grider 05:18
He was the vice president and was running president and they wanted--it was my
understanding that they come [came] to Gordon to get him to run for the Senate. And that the vice president wanted him to run. And I--I'm going back a long way, but it seems to me that he told me that, well, if the vice president wants me to run, let him call me, and he never got a call. So, probably is the best thing he didn't at that time.Jesse Grider 05:51
Because of the results of the election, but he always dabbled in politics, but
his--his bark was worse than his bite. He of course, there's no if and buts about it, and he always let you know he was a Democrat. And--but I guess the truth be known, he was a very conservative, in ways Democrat, and he would probably turn over in his grave hearing me say this, but I've got an idea he'd voted Republican a few times too, so. [laughter] He'd never admit it, I'm sure.Ethel White 06:32
Well, did knowing a lot of these people, help him in the negotiations.
Jesse Grider 06:36
Oh, yes.
Ethel White 06:40
--Or you think it didn't--.
Jesse Grider 06:42
He--later, after he had retired, his health sort of forced him into retirement,
and he was going to Florida during the winter, and he finally decided, I think, to stay there. One of the mine workers [was] president of the region, and I've forgotten what region western Kentucky is under, but from over in Evansville, had retired at the same time and moved to Florida, and they were good friends. This guy was a big help to, I can't recall his name, but I met him when I was down to visit Judge Gordon in Florida, but he was a big help to the judge. They lived fairly close to each other, and he would come over and see about the judge and take him wherever he needed to go. And then when Mrs. Gordon flew in for something and was flying back, I called this guy to meet her at Fort Myers airport. So, they were very close, and I think he had attended all of Judge Gordon's children's weddings, and---.Jesse Grider 07:44
[Tape cuts off]
Jesse Grider 07:52
--I presume that they had been friends for years, along with a lot of other
union leaders and business agents and so forth. He--Judge Gordon is--could talk to anyone. He could sit down with a labor leader, or he could sit down with a miner, and he was just that type of person. So, I presume by him practicing--I attended a--some sort of dinner one night for--they were honoring Judge Gordon. He could not be here, but someone had gone to Florida and taped him, at the Galt House. And it was something to do with the civil rights or the bussing situation, and Galen Martin and oh, what's the older Black fellow's name here in town, that was one of the first Blacks to enter the university from the--Lyman Johnson.Ethel White 08:55
Lyman Johnson, yeah.
Jesse Grider 08:57
--Lyman Johnson. These people were there. So, one attorney got up, and I think
it was maybe Grimes, I'm not sure, a Black attorney, but he told a story about bringing suit against the Madison---Madisonville school board. A desegregation, or civil rights suit, and Gordon was the chairman of the school board at that time, or was at least on the board, I'm not sure a chairman, but-- [clears throat]. So, they all called, and the attorneys and the school board were meeting to--rather than to get in a long litigation type thing, they were trying to work out their problems. And he told a story--the Black attorney, here in town about the suit. And so, it was time for lunch, and so, they all went outside, and Gordon says, "well, you--they can't eat." You know, here they are down here to sue us over our school policies, and there's no place in town that'll have--they won't serve Blacks.Jesse Grider 10:20
So, Gordon called Iola, his wife, and says, "we're having lunch guests, and to
have sandwiches or something [chuckles] ready." And he took them out to his house for lunch. And later he told this black attorney this story. And so, this is why the attorney was telling me that this dinner honoring Judge Gordon, but this just--this was the type of person he was. He could always work out something. And he--from the bench, he was very tough, straightforward. He was--he had an awful lot of respect for the military. During the Vietnam [War], there was a lot of protesting and draft dodging and so forth, and Judge Gordon would slap it on him pretty good if they came to his court. I have, I have taken under his order, a young fella to the army--recruit him to go in the service. And the judge would even give him a choice, you either go or you're going to the penitentiary.Jesse Grider 11:30
And you know, I'm not criticizing your religion, if that's your reason, but
there's other work to be done and not have to carry arms or fight in a war, but there's other things you can do. He would send them to the Jehovah Witnesses. He sent a lot of them to jail, in the penitentiary. But he was just a firm believer, and that was his--his way of doing things, and he would certainly do it. I can't remember whether it was he or Judge [Henry Luesing] Brooks. At one time, there was a young fellow from New Orleans had stolen a car and was picked up here in western Kentucky. And I think it was Judge Gordon, and he'd gone in, and he had very long hair. And being a little bit conservative, that turned the judge off real[ly] quick, and they said the judge was wanting to probate him, but he said, "I'm leaning toward probating you but I'm going to adjourn court for an hour, and if you want to be probated, you go with a marshal and he'll take you over the barber shop and get you a haircut. And you come back here in an hour, and we'll see whether I'm going to probate you or not."Jesse Grider 12:54
Well, the young fella didn't hesitate. I took him to the barber shop, and he got
his hair cut and we went in, and Judge Gordon probated him. Said a lot of funny things like that that happened. Judge Gordon at that time, and I don't know now, but things have changed so much with the law changes daily. That a federal judge could comment on the--on a case from the bench. And we had a couple of people that were--defrauded some companies and appliances. And the problem was, this fellow's father was a legitimate appliance dealer here in Louisville. And when he opened his own store on Bardstown Road, and these companies thought they were shipping it to his father, and they were shipping it to him, and he was paying and selling and was never paying for this stuff. And almost ruined his father, but anyway, he got him for mail fraud.Jesse Grider 14:05
And after the trial, Frank Haddad represented him, and at the end of the case,
the judge then was going to comment on the evidence in the case. And he says, "now what I --in instruction to the jury was that what I say is not to be taken as evidence. That I have the authority and right to comment." And he said, "in my opinion, these people are guilty, as guilty as they can be. They've got[ten] on this witness stand and lied." [chuckles] And Haddad was jumping up and objecting, of course, and--and Judge Gordon and Frank Haddad were close friends, fishing buddies a lot. Haddad being a real short [chuckles] fellow with short legs, and Judge Gordon was a big barrel of a man at that time. And Had----and Judge Gordon sent the jury out and adjourning court. And Haddad followed him all the way back to his chamber hollering that, "you--judge, you shouldn't have said that. You shouldn't have said that." And Gordon turned around and says, "now, Frank, if you don't like it, take it up the river." [chuckles] Which meant that he could appeal it to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals.Jesse Grider 15:28
And Haddad still laughs about that. But anyway, the jury convicted him, and they
got their time. I00there's an awful lot of stuff that I'm sure I've missed over these thirty-some years. I think I covered it, in 1975, the marshal for the western district resigned or retired. When that happens, then the courts interim appoint, a United States Marshal. And the courts, which consist of Judge Gordon, Judge [Clifton Rhodes] Bratcher and Judge [Charles M.] Allen, appointed me-- interim appointment. Which meant that I was a U.S. Marshal serving under a court appointment. I was drawing the money for it and doing the job. And then in the early fall, I was nominated by the president, and then confirmed in 1975. I became--from court appointed to a presidentially appointed marshal. And I held that position then until 197--. Well, it was really '76 that--the judges call me in and off--wanted to know if I was interested in becoming the chief deputy clerk. [phone rings] [tape cuts off]17:15
And I--this was late '76 and--well, let me back up just a little bit. What
happens when you're a presidential appointee, you're appointed for a four-year term. I still had four years to go---two years to go on my appointment but the administration had changed. And I had career status as a chief deputy marshal, which meant I would stay with the Justice Department as the chief deputy. Sometime, the administration changes, even though your appointment isn't up. When the administration changes, sometime[s] they make changes in the marshal and the United States Attorney, even though their term may not be up. And I would have had to have gone where there was an opening for a chief deputy marshal. And I don't know what happened in the clerk's office, but something happened, and the chief deputy left. And the courts asked me if I would be interested in accepting that position. I told him I didn't know; I'd have to think about it, and after giving it thought for a few days, I declined. And told him I did not want to be chief deputy clerk.Jesse Grider 18:32
About a week later, then Judge Gordon came in my office--the marshal's office
and asked me why I did not apply for the clerk's job. Well, I didn't know--and August Winkenhoffer (??) was the clerk for the U.S. District Court at that time, and I didn't know Winkenhoffer was--. And I said, "well, what's happened to Winkenhoffer?" And they said, "well, he was retiring." He had had some medical--health problems. And so, I didn't think much about it. And then it--Rhodes Bratcher was the chief judge, and they called me down and wanted to know if I would be interested in becoming clerk of the court. And the clerk is appointed by the majority of the judges and serves at the pleasure the judges. The chief judge of a district is---has no more than one vote. He is the administrator of the courts, but he only has one vote--as in all the other judges do. I told them I didn't know; I'd have to give that some thought. And I thought about it over sort of ruined my Christmas, really. Because I thought about it over the Christmas holidays and discussed it with my family and whatever I wanted do was fine with them. And it meant I was going to probably move again and leave home.Jesse Grider 20:06
And at that time, there was only two opening---three openings, one in Miami, one
in Jackson, Mississippi, and one in Memphis, Tennessee, and neither one of the three appealed to me. So, I decided that I would like to try and become--be the Clerk of the United States District Court. And so, I wrote my memo. Said I would consider the appointment, if desired. So, I was appointed Clerk of the U.S. District Court. So, I immediately--I wrote the President of the United States and resigned, effective the 31st day of January, as a United States Marshal of 1977. The following--next business day, then I was sworn in as Clerk of the U.S. District Court. And it was on the same floor, I just moved down the other end of the hall. I went from, as a marshal, I had mostly males. I had three clerks--female clerks, administrative clerks. Going in as the clerk of the U.S. District Court, it was all females, practically. There were two other men there. One had become----a young attorney was my chief deputy, and another older fellow that was the speedy trial coordinator.Jesse Grider 21:31
And other than that, I had--we had about twenty-eight females. I was familiar
with the operation and administrative part of it, but I was not accustomed to supervising females. And it was a lot of adjustment and different, especially from law enforcement. Because, you know you could give each other a good cussing in law enforcement or chewing out and you'd forget it and go on about your business, but that didn't--didn't work too well with the women. But they were great people, and they were a big help to me, and we survived. I never had any problems. I never had to let anyone go. We grew, when I left, to--and we had grown to about fifty-four or five people. I hired the first Black deputy clerk, in the clerk's office for the Western District. And a young lady, was a Sharon Palmer, which I'll have to say was one of my best moves, not because of race, but just as an individual. She was a fine, young lady. She'd attended Western [Kentucky University] and, late (??) just a little getting her degree. And come to think of it, she promised me she'd get her degree, and I don't think I ever held her to that promise. I don't think she ever did, but she was a fine, young lady.Jesse Grider 23:24
And then later, I hired two other Black and--a young Black fellow and a Black
female, another Black female, all in the Louisville office. I had advertised and increased the Bowling Green and Paducah and Owensboro office, but I never had a qualified minority apply. I wouldn't have hired them just because they're a minority, but if I'd of had a good, qualified one, I'd certainly would have hired them in one of the divisional offices. Remained as clerk of the court for about seventeen years. Went through, at that time, one, two, three, four, five chief judges. I was on my fifth one when I--when I retired. Rhodes Bratcher and from Rhodes Bratcher, Judge Allen became chief judge. Judge Allen stepped down or Judge Bratcher died about six months after I became, suddenly became clerk. Judge Allen became a chief judge. You become chief judge by seniority. And you cannot become chief judge after age sixty-four. Judge Allen stepped down early so we had-- [Edward Huggins] Johnstone could become chief judge.Jesse Grider 25:02
And Judge Johnstone was headquartered in Paducah but spends an awful lot of time
in Louisville. He remained chief judge for quite some time, and he stepped down a little early, because Judge [Thomas A.] Ballantine, to become chief judge, had he not done that, Judge Ballantine--had Judge Johnstone stayed his full-- Six years is the most you can remain chief judge and then Judge Ballantine would have been too old, so Judge Johnson stepped down early. Judge Ballantine then remained Chief Judge until he became ill. Even after becoming ill, he remained for a few months, until he got to the position where he just could not handle the administrative. So, he was--he took senior status, and then Judge Meredith--Ron Murdoch and was the next senior, became chief judge, and was chief judge when I retired. And Judge Ballantine then died in February of '93, of cancer.Jesse Grider 26:20
Judge Meredith then became ill with cancer, and he is still the chief judge
at---as of this day. And has spent an awful lot of time in and out of hospitals with his illness. They're some of the best people that you could have ever worked for. I've never had any problem with any of them. I served at the pleasure of the judges. --They let me run the office, they did not interfere with the operation of it. Of course--all the important things, I would run by them.Jesse Grider 27:08
They--Judge Meredith particularly, says, "well, I don't have anything do with
that office, our probation office, or any branch of the courts, because that's what you're there for and there was something wrong, you're the one I'm gonna be looking at, not worrying about the--each employee. Because a chief judge, when you sit down look at it, had a little over one hundred and some employees. Would probably been one hundred and fifty or 60 but then the new Bankruptcy Act took bankruptcy out from under the district court, to a certain extent. And then we transferred all bankruptcy, at that time, the district court clerk handled the bankruptcy filings and pleadings as well as the district courts. And I've forgotten what year, but when the new Bankruptcy Act went into effect then the--we transferred all bankruptcy cases to bankruptcy court, and they maintained their own docket and file.Jesse Grider 28:17
I thoroughly enjoyed it, as I say, it took some adjusting, but you know, as a
clerk of the court, you then--you are the administrator for the judges. The pay was a lot better than the marshal's [chuckles] pay. In fact, I used to think that it was a little--maybe a little ridiculous amount of money that they were paying me to--to do the job I was doing, but I thought we had a good office. And we--I thought we had a--and all the reports indicated from--you get audited, and management reviewed every few years. And we always had [an] excellent report from that. Not because of anything I did particularly, but because of the people that were there.Ethel White 29:11
Yeah. --Could you comment a little bit on each one of these chief justices,
either--either by way of description or by way of--.Jesse Grider 29:18
Well--.
Ethel White 29:18
--Any stories?
Jesse Grider 29:18
They were all different. They were all different.
Ethel White 29:22
Well, let's start--let's do it in order. Let's start with Bratcher.
Jesse Grider 29:24
Okay, Judge Bratcher was--as chief judge, I really didn't have time to work with
him very long because he--I became clerk, the first of February, he died in July, I believe. So, I--it was just a very few months there and I was still trying to--to adjust to the new position. Judge Allen, everyone loves Judge Allen. He is a gentleman's gentleman. He--he was born, as he says, with a silver spoon in his mouth. --He loves law, that's been his whole life.Ethel White 30:18
Yeah.
Jesse Grider 30:23
Very intelligent, they tell the story on him that he carries law books in his
car, and when he stops for a red light, he's reading a law book. [chuckles] He--.Ethel White 30:34
This is a true story.
Jesse Grider 30:36
This is a true story. He's a very careless type [of] fellow. He--his mind is, is
always seems to be on more important things and money to him is not important. So, the story is that he used checks for bookmarkers. He has these--awful big in stock. He'd get his dividend checks; you'd just find them everywhere. Judge Gordon told a story on him that he had a call from the Administrative Office of the Courts in Washington, that Judge Allen wouldn't cashing his paychecks, and that they were messing [chuckles] up the system. And he called Judge Allen and told him to find those checks and start depositing or cashing them and said he's pulling them out of books and everything (??) But anyway, he--Judge Allen was, I don't know how to describe him, other than he was just a fine gentleman. He--he didn't want to be bothered with little stuff. If he had something to deal with you, he would call you down and ask you how and handle it. He would never call you down and tell you. He may call you down and say, "this is a--I've gotten a little problem with this," or something, and then he would just expect you to take care of it. And he didn't bother you or--and if you didn't hear any more from him--from the problem, he presumed it was fixed, I guess. Because he never came back and inquired how you did it or what happened.Jesse Grider 32:20
A federal judge's staff consists of two law clerks, a secretary. And
occasionally, they will--the chief judge can have three law clerks of a district, if you have five or more judges. Judge Allen never just called you over to chit chat. I mean, he was just not that--he plays bridge every day, at noon. He would go to, I don't know whether he played at the Jefferson Club or (??) or where, over there someplace. And every day, he would go play bridge with his regular buddies, and Thruston Morton being one of them until he died, and different ones. He is a railroad buff, he-I--things that you and I have to worry about, he doesn't pay much attention to. His dress, he doesn't--you know, you may see him coming down the hall and his pant leg down to his socks or something, but he just doesn't pay any attention to those things. He will fly to--halfway around the country to ride a little--a little old steam engine or something for a five-mile trip or.Jesse Grider 33:53
I know one--one time, he was going to Florida, and it was the wintertime. To
ride a train from Jacksonville to Tampa or something, and he'd left his car at the airport [clears throat] or was going, this was prior to his trip. And he asked me, he said, "if you're out,"--this was when I was a U.S. Marshal. And he says, "if you're out at the airports." Says, "I'm gonna leave my key to---Delta whoever--whatever of airlines and start my car for me." And I says, "well, I've got to be out there because I've got to meet a plane on so and so date flying a prisoner into us, and I'll start your car." So, I did, and I started his car, and I noticed it was sitting on empty. So, he was due in the next day, I think. And I put a big note on this steering wheel, 'do not leave the airport until getting gas.' And I taped it [clears throat] on this wheel. But evidently, he saw the note and didn't pay attention to it or thought he had enough. So, he got home all right, but the next morning, he come [came] walking into--in the marshal’s office and said he had a little problem. Said he was on the Interstate 71 coming in [chuckles] from home to work and ran out of gas. And I said, "judge, didn't you see my note?" "I saw it, but I thought I had enough to get to-- [chuckles]." So anyway, we went out and got him some gas and got his car and, but things like that, he just doesn't pay attention to.Ethel White 35:29
Right.
Jesse Grider 35:30
And he'll admit, Judge Ballantine came out one day, and it was the wintertime,
and Judge Ballantine was scraping the snow and ice off his car. And judge--the judges park next to each other, and he saw Judge Allen's car. And he thought, well, he could just scrape his while he was there. So, he scraped it and got to the back, and he had a defroster on. And Judge Allen came out about that time and started up. And Judge Ballantine says, "well, Judge Allen, you have a defroster back there, how come you don't turn it on?" He said, "I didn't know what that was." [chuckles] and he had this car about three years. In fact, my son drives that car today, I bought it from Judge Allen. He has it for sale, but things like this, it just doesn't--. And get in his car, and you'd have books and tennis balls and law books, magazines. It was just unbelievable (??). You walk in his chamber, and he has a good system, and it looks awful to walking into--and a judge's chamber is a pretty good-sized room. I think they're entitled to around 1,800 square feet, so that's a pretty nice chamber.Jesse Grider 36:53
And he would have law books on the floor, he has huge conference tables, two of
them. And he'd have stacks of law books, the legal pads, and--by each one of them, in the floor, and legal pads there. I never went in there and saw that man sitting at his desk. And his system, I finally figured out was, that he was working on all his cases--and he would just move to the case. And--which was a pretty good system, and he did--never put those books back on the shelf until he finished with that case. And he---you would go in, and you never knew where he would be sitting in this big room, or whether you could see him with the books or not, but he would be sitting around working on whatever case he was working on and sitting next to that stack of books. From the bench, object they would cite some law, and he would come back without even having the law books in there. And 'well, I think you're right, that the Seventh Circuit did, but the Sixth Circuit ruled on so and so versus so and so,' without ever having to crack a book. And this is just all in his--in his. From Judge Allen--.Ethel White 38:13
Let me just ask you a question, what about baseball? Didn't he--?
Jesse Grider 38:19
Oh, he's--he's a sports fan, I mean, he loves all sports. And I went to a
basketball--UofL game. Marquette and UofL Were playing the fairgrounds.Jesse Grider 42:03
[Tape cuts off] [Pause in tape]
42:04
--And being somewhat of a basketball fan, although I'm a UK fan first and UofL
second, I went to the basketball game with him. And he knew every player, what they were averaging. Well, both teams, he didn't have a book with him, so this was in his mind (??). And I had gotten--had gotten a program, and I was trying to keep up with who--who was scoring what points. And I'd say, "well, I have Felton Spencer down for sixteen," or whatever laws. And he would correct me right away, that he only had 14. [chuckles] Now, he was doing this in his head, and I was trying to keep in--on the program. You could talk to him about baseball. He could tell you; I think he was a Yankee fan, I believe, but--because his son lived in New York, and he would go up there and visit him and always go to a ball game. But not only [the] Yankees, he'd give you the Reds, what their batting averages was [were] and it was just unbelievable. Thinking, when did he have time--when did he--. He plays tennis two or three nights a week. And Judge Allen is, must be 77, 78 years old. He plays bridge and understand an excellent bridge player. And not a bad tennis player for his age. He--he's had an awful lot of trouble with his eyes, and that's affected his tennis playing some, but he still, he still hangs in there.Ethel White 43:46
Did you ever go to baseball games with him?
Jesse Grider 43:49
No--no.
Ethel White 43:49
Just, just the basketball.
Jesse Grider 43:50
Basketball.
Ethel White 43:50
Okay.
Jesse Grider 43:50
I had gone to college games with him. And my daughter was a cheerleader at
Ballard [High School], and he wanted to go---there was [were] a couple of kids up there that went on--on the scholarship to play, play major ball and judge. Allen wanted to go see him. And so, one night, I picked him up, and we went up to Ballard High School see a high school game. And he got just as much a kick out of that as he did UofL or, and he was a big UofL fan. We would go out pregame maybe, and I'd gone to several UofL games with him, and we would go in their alumni room and Judge Allen was, I guess, contributing an awful lot to--UofL. So, we'd go in the alumni room, and we were sitting in the president's box, and that--. Here I was a UK fan, and I think I had blue on and everybody else had red and had a blue blazer. And Judge Allen, when he had introduced me, he'd tell me I was fine fellow, except I was a UK fan. And I said, "judge, you shouldn't be telling me in here, eating their cheese and drinking their wine and sitting in their box and--." But, anyway, and Scott Miller was a big UofL [fan], so he was always there. And but any--Judge Allen is a lot of fun --He's witty in ways, but [in] other ways he doesn't understand the average person you know, having to worry about car payments or mortgage payments and this sort of thing.Ethel White 45:41
Okay, I think I'd prevented you from moving on to Johnstone.
45:44
Okay well, then Judge Johnstone was our next chief judge. Judge Allen stepped
down early so he could become chief judge. Judge Johnstone was [clears throat] different, he was not from money. He--I mean, he did all right, I'm not saying he was a poor man by any means, but he was not old money like the Allen's or--or Ballantine, but neither was Bratcher. I knew Bratcher---Judge Bratcher’s Father, which was a circuit judge down in Butler and Edmondson County area Judge Johnstone was a worker. He was different from the other judges that he--he liked to know what was going on.Ethel White 46:40
You mean as--for--.
Jesse Grider 46:41
--As far as the--.
Ethel White 46:42
--The court operations go.
Jesse Grider 46:43
Court operations. He believed in a lot of meetings. He'd like to have a meeting
once a month or so. He loved sitting on the bench. Most judges don't, but he does. He enjoys trials. He--if anybody has a good time, it's Judge Johnstone, he's quite a teaser. He--I don't know he's always coming up with something, some kind of--some kind of joke or something on him. He--I know one time; he called the office about 5:30 or something. Normally, our office hours [are] from 8:30 to 8:30, and he was in Paducah, and he called the Louisville office. And I answered the phone, for some reason, I was still there. He wanted to know what I was doing, still in the office at 5:30, and of course, Paducah being an hour behind Louisville. And I said, "well, I'm not in the office. I put--I have call forward, and I'm at home." And I said, "anytime you call me during the day, I might be at home." I said, "I just put this thing on call forwarding." He told everybody in town. "Grider never comes to office, he has call forwarding [laughs]."Jesse Grider 48:10
But anyway, he got a big kick out of that, and he liked to tell that. I had to
be in Paducah one time to--some old files had been in the storage room in the basement for years. And we were supposed to ship those to the Federal Records Center every--we tried to keep--I narrowed it down to about three years. We tried to keep three-year-old cases on file here, then we'd send them to--to Glencoe, Georgia for storage, the National Records Center there. Some had to go to the National Archives. So, I was down and a couple of the ladies and I flew down to Paducah, to try to get these things separated and shipped to the proper place. And I had on old work clothes, and it was dirty, they had that room dusted (??). And the judge wanted me to come--sent somebody down to get me, and Paducah’s a small building. It's three stories and he's on the second floor. And so, I went up expected he just wanted the BS or something so, I went in his chamber, and he was on the bench. And the secretary told him I was in the chambers. "Tell him to come on in here." I said, "I can't go in now. I'm in blue jeans and hands [are] black, and--."Jesse Grider 49:43
"Now, he wants you to come over here now. (??)" I went in, and he was not on the
bench, he was sitting down in the--on the floor level with attorneys, and here they were in their two-hundred-dollar suits, and Martin Holbrook, I think was there and (??) and attorneys out of New York. And it was quite a big case that they were trying to work out a settlement in. And here I walk in [chuckles] with these blue jeans and all this dirt on. "I want y'all to meet my clerk," he said. [chuckles] So, I felt bad about it (??). And then they requested me--wanted to question--really, what he wanted me up there for is when the--the clerk has responsibility for the registry account of the court. If there's a settled agreement or any money comes in and it's to be put in an escrow or in---in the clerk's hands for safekeeping until ordered to disperse by the court.Jesse Grider 50:47
And this could be several million dollars, at times. And the problem that we had
was that we kept it in local banks, and your local banks are only insured for the $100,000. Well, then--what if we got a two-million-dollar judgment that was paid, and it would--I may be keeping it for six months or thirty days or whatever? But I had to be sure that money--I could be held personally responsible for this money. And the only way you could do this then, is contact a bank, and the bank would deposit with the Federal Reserve bonds to cover this particular account. And so, that takes some time. The law was changed, a little bit later that all the--nd at that time, we did not have to put it in interest-bearing accounts. That we could just put it in---in the bank, and it just laid there the bank could use it until we were ordered to disperse it. And I was the dispersing officer for--I dispersed federal checks and escrow account checks.52:06
You changed the law on us and then, all money that came in had to be in an
interest-bearing account. [clears throat] Now, this puts a clerk, and I don't know whether this should go in this or not, but it puts a clerk in a pretty bad position. Because you [are] being married to an attorney, they work out a settlement with some lawsuit, and a million dollars has to be deposited because maybe there's ten clients. And each client may be entitled to different amount, plus the attorney's entitled to his fee. That money goes in an escrow account of the clerk of the court, and it says that it must be in an interest-bearing account. Well, surprisingly, that--we dealt with about five banks in the city of Louisville, and each five, if you [are] talking about that kind of money, would quote you different interests. So, it really made a clerk an investment individual, which you were not qualified to be, but you felt scared if you didn't, then an attorney could come back on you. Well, you could have gotten better interest here, you know.Jesse Grider 53:22
So, I did draw up an order and had the judges to sign, unless an attorney
specifies what interest or what bank within these five. Then the clerk will not be held responsible for depositing--getting the best interest he can among those five banks. I'm trying to protect myself and the judges signed it so, I never had any problem, but I could see where--. There has [have] been clerks with problems. Or if you miss getting it in an interest-bearing account. You know, you take three million dollars and days interest makes a big difference So, you can run up quite a few--and as I say you, we're not insured. [coughs] Would could be held personally responsible for that.54:23
You, we tried to adjust--I'd make reports to the court. The statute reads that
the clerk is to make any reports to Washington, the Administrative Office of courts. We had to make an awful lot of reports to Washington, monthly financial and case management reports. I'd make reports to the judges as to each judge's activity during the month and to the year. Cases assigned; we assigned all cases to the judges. We did that civilly by draw. We tried it both ways, on criminal. It felt like that if you--we would say a judge would take two months criminal. Any indictments returned in two months would go to a particular judge. The judges got a little concerned about that, and I did too, because I think I saw a little of it. That the U.S. Attorney could judge shop on you. Because a U.S. Attorney could indict any time they wanted to indict, but if it was the wrong judge, that they felt like they didn't want that judge, they just wouldn't really indict those two months.Jesse Grider 55:41
And whether the next month or until the judge that they wanted was coming up,
and then they could indict and-- knowing that it would go to that judge. So, in order to get it around--but then the judges--criminal has priority. The judges like that because of the speedy trial, and all these things that you've got to be concerned with. We would have to furnish a judge when he got a case. This case has to be tried by so and so date. There's excludable time, all this sort of thing that we would furnish the judge that you know, it has to be tried by August the fifth, but I understand, there's going to be a motion filed, and so that's excludable time as--until the court rules on that motion. So, we had all this in a computer so we could keep up with it, [clears throat] giving--it's constantly giving the judges a new date. But the judges like the idea of their two months, because then they could get rid of their--their criminal and have the rest of their time, the next eight months or so, to spend on civil.Jesse Grider 56:50
But because of this fear of judge shopping, we went to the draw on criminal.
Now, some judges like it, and some didn't. We went to the draw on the criminal, which was good as far as judge shopping, because no one knew what judge was going to get a particular case until the day of indictment. And then we would draw a judge's card, and it would be assigned to that judge. But that meant a judge never knew what he was going to have criminal. So, whatever month--our grand jury normally would sit once a month. And each month, the judge never knew whether he was going to have one criminal case or ten criminal cases. And so, they had to shuffle their docket accordingly. The other way was much better for the judges, but at the same time, was not a---they were just a little bit concerned that it could--(??) to me that when one judge was getting all the narcotic cases and another one was getting all of something else, that there was some problem, but the draw took care of that.Jesse Grider 57:56
So, then you reassign cases, we tried to watch, if a case came in, unless it
involved the Ford Motor Company, and then we knew this judge. I had a list of the companies that they had investments in. Then we would try to flag that, and it could not go to that parti--even though that judge may have drawn that case, it couldn't go to him because he had stock in the company. But a few occasions, I've seen that go by Judge Gordon did it, and--once in a coal mine suit.Jesse Grider 58:39
He had--or Iola had several hundred acres that Peabody Coal had leased from her.
And he so advised the attorneys of this, and this suit was against Peabody Coal. And in his letter, he wrote to each attorney and the plaintiffs, and stated this out. And that 'if any of you feel that you think I shouldn't--get out of the case, please notify the clerk of the court. I will not know who did it. I do not want to know who did it.' But no one ever, I mean, they all knew Judge Gordon would be fair with it, and they had no problem with it, so he stayed in the case. And I have seen that done a few times.Jesse Grider 59:31
[Tape cuts off].
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