Oral History Interview with Jesse Grider, February 17, 1994

Ethel White 00:05

This is a conversation with Jesse Grider. We are at his home at 7302 Arrowwood Road in Louisville, Kentucky. It is February 17th, 1994. My name is Ethel White. Let's start with a little background on on you, if you could start with where and when you were born, and just a little bit about your education and where you grew up and that kind of thing.

Jesse Grider 00:33

Okay, I was born in Barren County, Kentucky. A little community known as Griderville, which was named after my father and his brothers. It's about eight miles north of Glasgow, halfway between Cave City, Kentucky and Hiseville, Kentucky. I was born December the 23rd 1932. I was the baby of six children, four boys and two girls, and well, that's not quite true. I had a younger brother that was born, I do not remember him but died at just a few months old. But anyway, then I was raised as the baby of the family. [clears throat] My mother was Elizabeth Jesse from Adair County. My father was Hobart M Grider from Adair County, and my father and his brothers moved to-to rural route Cave City, which is known in that area as Griderville, and it's where I was born. At a young age--I do not remember living there, because then we moved to glide--my parents moved to Glasgow, and that's where I was raised, in the city of Glasgow. We were from--my father was sort of a handyman for a Mr. Cartwright that owned a lot of rental property there, and he, he did a lot of work for him. My mother, as I recall, in the 30s, and I barely remember this, worked for the WPA [Works Progress Administration]. I think, as some sort of government Job Corps-type thing or something, and then she decided she wanted to attend nursing school, and so, she came to Louisville when--at the old Norton hospital at Third and Oak and took nurses training. And my youngest sister, which is older than I, but my youngest sister and sort of babysit and took care of the two kids. It was my brother and myself. And she finished her nursing school and came back and then went to work for the hospital in Glasgow, and later became a nurse for Dr C.C. [Carl Clifford] Howard, which is one of the first surgeons in that part of the---part of the country, and he had built a new clinic and--. So anyway, she went to work with him, and we were a very poor family, but everybody we knew were too. So, that during that time that--you didn't pay that much attention to it. We always seemed to have a roof over our head and plenty to eat, but we did not have a lot. And I attended Glasgow schools, public schools. I dropped out of school, high school, and I don't know why, but then, you know, people didn't push education that much or whatever. I guess I thought I was smarter than the teachers, and then I went in the Army. I joined a National Guard in Glasgow.

Ethel White 04:24

Oh, at what age?

Jesse Grider 04:26

I was, just turned nineteen, I think.

Ethel White 04:30

When did you drop out of school?

Jesse Grider 04:34

In high school? I don't know what year that was, but--.

Ethel White 04:41

You were roughly how old? I mean, how far along had you gotten?

Jesse Grider 04:44

Oh, I was about sixteen. I was at the legal age, and it seemed to be that that was a lot of things, the thing to do at that time and. Of course, a lot of kids did it because they had to help out on farms or that sort of thing, but I just did it. I don't know why. But then, anyway, I went on, went in the service. I was 18 in December, in January the first 1951 then they called the National Guard in, the Korean conflict.

Ethel White 04:45

Okay. You said Korea?

Jesse Grider 05:20

Uh-huh. So, I was then--went to Fort Bragg, North Carolina for training, and from there, then I was separated from the National Guard outfit and shipped overseas to Korea. In which I served, I think at that time you were, it was a point system, and if you were--after receiving so many points, you were supposed to rotate. And I had my points then, which took about a year, but they couldn't get a replacement for me. So, I had to serve a little bit longer than that but anyway, I came back--I was in--at that time, they released you back to your National Guard, if you had less than a year to serve. So, I ended up serving about twenty-one months or so in the Army. And I was really never discharged. I was just released back to the National Guard. And--so, after that, I didn't know what I was going to do. And I married. In fact, I got married after I knew I was leaving for the Army, shortly thereafter.

Ethel White 06:42

So, this was about 1952 or 1953?

Jesse Grider 06:46

Well, I got married in, I think '51.

Ethel White 06:48

Okay.

Jesse Grider 06:48

Yeah, it was January, after I knew I was going to be going in the Amy, then I got married. To a Glasgow girl that I had gone to school with and had known, practically all my life.

Ethel White 07:09

Would you--.

Jesse Grider 07:09

But too young.

Ethel White 07:10

--Could you give her a name?

Jesse Grider 07:12

She was an Eudy. Allen E-U-D-Y. And---so anyway, I went on Fort Bragg took my training. She came down, and we lived in Fayetteville, North Carolina, off base and--and then in August why, I was shipped to Korea. And then the following year, and then I came --and in the meantime, she was pregnant--and I met my daughter, when I got home, was a year old. I think was notified in Korea that---that I was the father of a daughter. And this was in early October, and then the following August is when I got back. So, she was--from October to August before I got to see her. And from that-- I had a brother in Ohio. He wanted me to come up and work up there. So, we did, and I went to work for Frigidaire for a short period of time, and I guess I was just home sick, so I came back to Glasgow. And I didn't know what I was gonna do, so I took the GI Bill on refrigeration and air conditioning. Well, I did that about two months and realized that wasn't my thing. So, International Harvest Louisville in were hiring, and so I came to Louisville to go to work for International Harvester. Well, they put them in the foundry, and that lasted about two weeks, and I decided there had to be a better way than that to make a living. So, I went back home at the age of twenty-one and there was an opening on the police department. So, I decided that I was going to try to be a policeman, and so I went to Western [Kentucky University] and took a course on my--and took the GED and got my high school education.

At that time, twenty-one-year-olds were just unheard of as a policeman, particularly in small towns. They were normally older people, and I was probably the youngest one that ever had been hired in Glasgow. [clears throat] But anyway, they hired me, with the help of a lot of friends. I know you. (??) Barrickman (??), the attorney in Glasgow was the police commissioner at the time, and he was very supportive. Mr. Calvert, which was a city councilman, was very supportive of me. And they---so, I went to work for City of Glasgow as a policeman, and which was a little-- In a small town where everyone knows everyone, it was little tough to start with, because most of these people that you're arresting you'd run around with, and, you know, sneaked out and had a few beers with, and this sort of thing. [clears throat] When--as underage--but anyway, I served two years as a patrolman, and then it was a sergeant position opened up, which I'd applied, and I made sergeant. And so, I served two years as a sergeant on the police department of twenty-one employees. And so, I was there for four years, and one day I had a call that--from a friend of mine, which Mr. Pettygo--(??) Ed Pettygo had owned a Buick dealership there, in Glasgow. And said he had heard that there--would I be interested in becoming a policeman in Washington, D.C., and that they were begging for them--police officers in Washington. And I said, no, "why," you know, Washington didn't interest me at all. And so, about two days later, he called and wanted to know if I would be interested in becoming a deputy in the United States Marshal. And I knew the deputy marshal in Bowling Green.

I didn't know anything about the Marshal service other than the Marshal in Bowling Green. The deputy Marshall had served a subpoena on the--a few times to testify in federal court on the moonshine cases, the Dyre Act automobile theft cases. And I had been in federal court a a witness and did know that the marshals and ran the court and served a process, and that's about the extent of--I knew about it. And I told him I didn't know; I'd have to think about it. And so, I did for about a week, and I told him it sounded like it might be of interest. And he told me he was coming to Louisville who to see, which L.A. Demumbrum (??) was the United States marshal at that time, from Brownsville, Kentucky. And so Mr--I met with Mr. Demumbrum, and he had--there were two openings, and he let me know that he could not hire me unless I had the approval of the United States senators. Well, at that time was John Sherman Cooper, and Thruston Morton, which I knew neither one of them and was lucky to even know who they were. And the only reason I did is because I had to work when they would come to Glasgow running for office, and I'd have to work security when they would come in to make a speech. So, I thought, well, you know, that's ridiculous. There's no way I can get--. So, I go back to Glasgow, and I tell Mr. Prettygo what took place, and he always referred to me as 'my boy.' And he says, "well, my boy, we can take care of that." And he said, "could you think you can get anyone else to support you?" And I said, "well, Louie Nunn was a friend of mine." He was county judge, and I was the city policeman. And his brother, Lee was a good friend of mine, which happened to be administrative assistant to Thruston Morton, at the time. And so anyway he's he says, "well, I'll take care of the setting up a meeting with the senators, and you see what you can do about Louie--Lee," which then I did, and they supported me one hundred percent. And then Mr. Pettigo called back and said in January, that we were to meet at the Brown Hotel with Senator Cooper and Senator Morton. And he said, "now Morton will tell you right away whether he's for you or whether he isn’t, but John Sherman will not give you an answer." He said, "he'll have to think about it." So, we did, and I met in the lobby of the Brown Hotel with Senator Cooper first, and we chatted for a while.

And Mr. Pettigo was, was the chairman of the Republican party, I think then was the fourth district, which I knew nothing. In fact, I don't even think I was registered to vote, and I knew nothing about politics whatsoever. And Mr. Pettigo was correct--in that Mr. Cooper--Senator Cooper, says, "well, I'll let you know." And then I met with Senator Morton, and after we chatted a while why, Senator Morton got up and said, "well, you have my support one hundred percent," and he ended the conversation. So, I go on back, and at the time, the chief of police, I had told him what I was doing, that I had applied for this position, and I wasn't sure whether I would get it or not, but I wanted to let him know, but--but to keep it quiet. I didn't want to be embarrassed if something came up and I didn't get it. And so, this went on for a couple of months, and I hadn't really heard anything. And the--his--chief called me and says, "you know, I need to know something. I can't just keep operating here on day to day, not knowing whether you're gonna be here or not." So, I said, "well, let me see what I find out," in which I made a couple of telephone calls. And they said, "well, the bureau had it, the FBI had it, and they should be started in the background check on me." And then about three days later, I had a letter from Senator Cooper saying that he was supporting me one hundred percent.

Ethel White 16:57

And I just want to interject because your scrapbook has that letter in it.

Jesse Grider 17:01

Oh, okay. And that [clears throat] it should be well, then I leave someone calls me from Senator Morton's office and says, "don't let anybody know I've told you this and particularly the marshal, but a letter has just gone to Morton to the marshal in Louisville telling them to hire you as a deputy marshal." And so, then about two days later, the marshal called and said he had decided to hire me. And so, I thanked him and appreciated it and so he called me into Louisville, and I came to Louisville, and he said, "now I can hire you now before the FBI background, but should something show up, you know you would be--we would have to let you go." And I said, "I don't think I'd be willing to do that, because you never know what someone might tell on you, or something come up that--you might knock you out of it, and you not thinking it was all that serious." But anyway, I didn't want to do that. So, the FBI, then I started getting calls just every five minutes, you know, what have you done? The FBI has been out there talking to me, or this sort of thing. Of course, it's a small town. And so, they completed their background, and then the marshal called me and said that they had--it was after the background was done, and everything was okay. And when could I start? And I said, "well, I need to give a couple of weeks’ notice here. And plus, I like to have a few days," I was still married at time, we were not getting along very well. So, and in fact, I owned a house in Glasgow, and [clears throat] we had separated and then gone back together. Well, I had rented the house out, and so we moved and rented an apartment, so we were living in an apartment at the time. And so, he said, "fine," but I needed to come and get fingerprinted. And, you know the civil service fingerprints and so forth, and that they were going to all be in court in Owensboro and if I could be there, well that would be fine for the fingerprinting. Which then, I drove to Owensboro and did that, came back, and gave my two weeks’ notice. And then two weeks later, or three we--and then I took a week's leave, and then I came to Louisville and went in on April 7, 1958, Judge Roy Shelburne was the chief judge at the time. And I went in his chamber and was given the oath of the deputy United States marshal. And so, you had no schools, no training, except on-the-job training. So, I was assigned with a deputy marshal an older fellow and--.

Ethel White 20:26

What was his name?

Jesse Grider 20:27

Tom Duvall. He's since deceased, and I would just go with Tom, and at that time, the marshals served processes, attended court, transported all the federal prisoners. You furnished your own car. So, I was with him for maybe a couple of months, and you know, how to serve processes, which I knew nothing about. Subpoenas or someone's in complaints. Being a city police officer, you had no dealings with those things and having that--true returns on your--on your services and on how to cuff prisoners and so forth. Which you know, as a policeman, when you slap the cuffs on them and just to get them to jail or the police department, and we're not having to deal with them day in and day out over a period of several days. [clears throats] Nor did you use waist chains and leg irons and that sort of thing. Then I just sort of went out on my own then, serving processes, not really knowing all that much what do? Knew nothing about the city of Louisville, if I got off Fourth Street, I was lost.

Ethel White 22:04

Can you back up a minute? Because I wanted to ask you about the handcuffs and the chains, because I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. You're saying the process as a marshal was very different than what you were used to--.

Jesse Grider 22:14

Yes--yes.

Ethel White 22:14

--As a policeman.

Jesse Grider 22:15

Yes, as a police officer, you--you used handcuffs. You didn't know--I didn't even know what a waist chain was, had never seen one used. We never had any leg irons. We didn't use leg irons on prisoners, but a police officer does not have custody of a prisoner that long. Normally, they just arrest them, cuff their hands behind her back, throw them in the back seat of the car and take them--ahold of them. Marshals handle these people all day, especially transporting them to the institutions and this sort of thing. So, you--you were shown how to put handcuffs and use of the waist chain and this sort of thing.

Ethel White 23:02

Did you also tend to get a different type of criminal or, I mean, did they tend to be more violent or more hardened or not necessarily?

Jesse Grider 23:08

Well, I think probably more hardened and--and bigger types of crime, or more serious crime. You know, as a city policeman in particular, in a place like Glasgow well, Saturday night was a big night for drunks and fights and this sort of thing. Back then, if you--if you made a felony arrest a couple of times a year, you were just lucky. You know that--lucky or just wasn't that much big crime going on in a small town. Can I ask you one other thing, as long as I'm interrupting you? [laughs]. Sure.

Ethel White 23:48

This is going way back to Korea, was there anything in your experience in Korea that had anything at all to do or prepared you in any way for--.

Jesse Grider 24:10

No.

Ethel White 24:10

--Life as a policeman or a marshal?

Jesse Grider 24:12

No, none--

Ethel White 24:12

Did you see any action.

Jesse Grider 24:13

No, I was in artillery--when--I do not know how this happened, but I had an MOS [Military Occupational Specialty] of-- which is a number they give you, which is your occupation--as a military occupation. And they had me down as a 3705 I believe, which is a forward observer. Whatsoever.

Ethel White 24:45

Forward observer.

Jesse Grider 24:46

Forward observer for spotting targets, for the artillery. As an air forward observer, in fact, and--which means you get in these little L-19 one engine planes and fly over the enemy lines and try to spot targets and follow for missions back. Well, I knew nothing about this, and I don't know how I ended up with that MOS, but when they--when I got there, I said, "you know, this is I'm not an--an air observer." And then they changed--about that time, they changed the regulation that you had to be an officer. Well, I was a PFC [Private First Class] to be an air observer. So, that got me off the hook. So, they sent me up to the ninth field artillery, third division, ninth field artillery. And there I was an observer, but it was a ground observer, and usually, there would be three of us, and we would go up sometime with the infantry. If we were getting ready to attack why, we would call a formation and throw artillery on the enemy for three or four hours before--before an offensive assault, and sort of weaken them, so to speak, to--so the infantry could move in. Then and--at other times I would--we would pick out the largest hill that we could find in fairly safe territory, or this side of the no man's zone, which is the space between our line and the enemy's line. And from that hill, we would dig a trench from the backside and then get in and dig a[n] underground bunker, not disturbing the top of the hill, and we would stay in there for a week with field glasses and spot targets. If we saw troop movements or tanks, whatever why, then we would call a fire mission, and that would go back to headquarters at the ninth field, and from that to fire direction center, would map out, we would give them the coordinates, and all this sort of thing. And hearing from a little country boy that was uneducated, really.

And to--it amazed me how we could sit up there and do this, that we would call on farm missions and give them the coordinates and so forth. And what you would do is your first round, I was 155 which is fairly big guns. You had a 105, 155, and then they had the Long Toms, which was the biggest gun that they had, artillery piece. And the first round that you would fire, you would make long, you know, if you had coordinates, so and so, then you would add maybe 200 yards on that. So, you can get that first round out and see where that went. The next one, then you would call lower 400 yards. Well, that should hit 200 yards short of your target. And then the third one, you would--you would order---add 200 and fire for effect. Well, that third round should hit your target or close enough to do a lot of damage, just according to how big the target was. And you know, you might want to go left or right, or whatever. You know you might call--the farm mission, might say, "coordinate so and so" and they'd get the first round out, said, "left 200, drop three." You know, it means turn 100 yards left, drop 300 yards. So, you're lining it up is what you're doing, and you're using that artillery shell as a marker, and from that marker, then you're zeroing in on the target. So, your third round, if you're calling them right, and the gunneries are setting their guns right, the third round should hit the target. And these guns could be eight to nine mile back behind the line from where you actually are. So, it was amazing to see a big gun that you could call and hit a tank maybe and from eight miles back. Which is nothing now, but of course, then it was quite a sight. Or to sit up there and call an airstrike and watch these jets come in and just wonder whether they were going to be able to pull out of it or not. Because you'd call an airstrike and here the Air Force would come in with their guys (??) to to hit their targets and it looked like they would get--from where we were sitting, and watched them through the field glasses, it looks like they'd get 100 yards in the ground before they'd pull up. Well, I'm sure it wasn't that close, but it looked like [it].

Ethel White 30:19

But this was on the job training also.

Jesse Grider 30:22

No, this was in Korea--

Ethel White 30:23

No, but I mean, you learned on the job--.

Jesse Grider 30:26

Oh, yeah.

Ethel White 30:26

--In Korea.

Jesse Grider 30:27

Yeah, yeah--.

Ethel White 30:27

--As much as you--.

Jesse Grider 30:27

--Because I had no training in--in forward observing.

Ethel White 30:31

As you were doing in the beginning of your marshal service.

Jesse Grider 30:34

In the beginning of the marshals, yeah. And so anyway, then I think the worst thing that probably happened--. Well, I would stay on this for a week, and then I would come back for two weeks with them. When I came back, then I had nothing to do, and so I drove a major, which was a RA--regular Army, and they are tough. I made Corporal at that time, and then he tried to convince me to stay in the service. My service career, and there was no way, you know, I was homesick [chuckles] and I wanted to get out. Didn't know what I was doing over there. Anyway-- [tape cuts off] So, anyway, then I would drive him for my couple of weeks at back in reserve, and it'd be time to go back to my week in the hole. And [clears throat] one particular time, which was probably the worst thing that happened to me, was-- Well, two things to stick out in my mind. We had--all had Korean house boys, so to speak. They did our laundry for us back in reserve ,when we'd go back well, they'd do her laundry and clean our bunker or tent up. But the house boy that we had, I shared a tent with one other fellow, which happened to be a Sioux Indian. I can't even think of his name now, which a little later, I wished I had of because I did go to Wounded Knee. But he was cutting my hair, the houseboy in--outside of my bunker. And I heard these planes coming, and all of a sudden, a--gunfire, and they were strafing the hell out of my outfits. Of course, I jumped up and ran for my hole. We all had foxholes pretty close, and dived in my hole, and I looked up, and they were our planes, but they had gotten mixed up on their coordinates or, I don't know what happened. I never, of course, being a PFC, I'd never know, but they hit us pretty heavy, but not near as heavy as an outfit on the other side of the hill, another artillery outfit. So, the major that I was assigned to, I think they only killed two of our people in the ninth field headquarters batteries, wanted to go over. He was an S3, which--intelligence type position. To go to the other outfit to see how much damage was done. And so, I drove him over there, and they was, gosh, I don't know how many. There were just bodies all over the place, and they were loading them up, throwing them up in the back of a two and a half ton Army truck. And I don't know, there was at least 40 or 50 bodies that night. And I looked over and there stood a guy that--from Glasgow, that I had gone in the National Guard with, that he had transferred from the National Guard outfit and had gone to Korea, and he was in the foreign directive center, with a different artillery outfit, and it was his outfit that got all this damage. So anyway, we were so glad to see each other, and sort of forgot about them, then they were just throwing those bodies up like cordwood, you know in the back this truck. And we chatted a while, and then we went on, got through the head count, and--the major did and we went on back to our outfit, and then he had to go back to Seoul to meet with the powers to be on what happened. And I never heard any more about it, so I don't know what happened. But then 'Midnight Thomas' was the fellow that was with that outfit, that--from Glasgow that I happened to go over. He was a very dark, complected.

Ethel White 35:23

That was your friend.

Jesse Grider 35:24

That was my friend and--.

Ethel White 35:27

Midnight Thomas.

Jesse Grider 35:28

Midnight Thomas, as they referred to him, and he was a very dark-complected. And now you know, I cannot think of his first name to save my life, cause all I ever called him was Midnight. But then we decided, and I had a brother in Korea, and he stayed with the National Guard outfit from Glasgow that was eventually sent on over to Korea, but--after I had left, and so I wanted to get over to see him. They were on the east coast, and we were sort of on the west coast in Korea, and I went in to see my captain, and he said, yeah, he would give me a two-day pass, but I had to have transportation. Well, Midnight was a sergeant, and I was a corporal. So, Midnight says that he had promise of a Jeep from his outfit, and we had transportation. So, my captain signed me a three-day pass. So, Midnight didn't have any Jeep, and his captain hadn't promised [chuckles] him any Jeep, so, he told me how he'd work it. So, he says, "my captain's going to ask me the same thing." So, we went in and explained to his captain what we wanted. And I had a brother, and it was in our National Guard outfit. So, he agreed if we had transportation. So, I said, "well, no problem, my captain's let me have a Jeep." So, he said--in three days, I asked him--and neither one of us had any transportation. So, anyway, we'd walk, and we'd hitch rides, and of course, Korea, I think's 140 mile wide, so we'd ride on tanks, through the back of trucks or whatever we could get on and you know, get over there. So, we did go and visit, and I got to visit my brother and old the Glasgow buddies, which was the entire National Guard outfit. And we came on back then to--after three days to our outfit. And we sort of then, I think he--his artillery outfit moved and ours moved up, and we sort of got separated, but he went on and stayed in the service and became a career and retired, and I think lives in Florida, and retired as a Master Sergeant. And of course, I got out and. Were you a corporal when you got out? When I got out of corporal, went back to my National Guard, made sergeant, and [clears throat] when I took this job, then there was no way I'd stay in the National Guard and have to commute back to Glasgow. So, anyway I--to get back to the marshal's job. After becoming a deputy marshal and getting out on my own and serving processes and transported prisoners and so forth, [clears throat] I decided that things were not going all that well. My married life and so I had--she had stayed in Glasgow to--with my daughter. And my plans were that, after school was out that summer why, then she would move to Louisville and so forth. And I really don't know what happened, but I went home--and so, I come to Louisville, I had an apartment and sleeping in a room, and I would go home on Friday nights and then come back on Monday mornings or Sunday nights, and I went in on a Friday night and I hadn't even set my suitcase down. Then something was said, and we just, I just turned and walked out. So, I never didn't go back. I had to be in Bowling Green for court on Monday morning, so on Saturday night, I just went on to Bowling Green and checked in the motel. And so, anyway I--.

Ethel White 38:28

Right. This is still in 1958.

Jesse Grider 39:44

Nineteen fifty-eight and this must have been about May or so, I don't know. Not long after I had gone with the marshal service, it was within a month or two. And so anyway, we agreed on settlements and so forth, and I kept the house, and she got--and we were to sell everything else. She got a car, and I had my car, and she had her car, and all the property settlements and so forth. And we were to sell everything in the house, and that she--we were--would pay any debts that we owed. And then she was to get whatever was left, and I was to pay X number of dollars a month child support.

Ethel White 40:37

She got custody of--.

Jesse Grider 40:38

She got custody of the child. Anyway, the divorce--of course, this was sometime later. In fact, I was in--in Little Rock when I got the final judgment from the court order signed and sent the--something to sign--the agreement before they could enter the judgment granting the divorce, which I did that in a Little Rock, so that was sometime later. And after---after the marshal service, then I decided that, you know--that I needed more education. I needed all the training I could get. And I became very interested in it. And then, after the divorce, and I had set my mind to it. Then I was going to see-- it seems to me like it was a lot of things that needed to be corrected or some training in. And I got the fool around with handcuffs and your regular everyday use handcuffs, which were all law enforcement used at that time, was very easy to pick. And I could take a lady's hairpin, and I got to fooling with that, and I'd pick a pair of cuffs. I can put a pair of cuffs on with the hands in front, and put those on, and I could break them, simply by getting those three links that separated the one arm cuff to the other one. And there's three links and they're on a swivel post, but if you wiggle, [clears throat] wiggle those around, you can get one link pulling against the other, and you could just snap them. And so, I did that, but you could also take a hair pin and you can pick the lock, or you could just slide it in, where the cuffs come together, which just has teeth. You could slide that in and bypass those teeth, and it would just slip out over those teeth, or I could take that handcuff can be double locked, which means, when you put them on, if you turn them one way, that locks them. That means you can no longer tighten them or loosen them without unlocking them. Well, if you double locked them, that was a little more secure, but not totally. Because I could still take a hairpin and unlock the cuff and then push it another way, and just--the cuff will just fall off. And so, but with a waist chain on, you could not break it because you had it going through a loop on the waist chain, and you could not get one link pulling against the other, with that going through that loop. And so, it was all but impossible to break. And I also noticed that if you put them on--and most people, for convenience most Marshals that I observed, for conveniences, always put the handcuff key facing out. The hole in the cuff, to get your key. But if you turn that cuff key in toward the body, I can give you a handcuff key in with that waist chain on, and you would have a hell of a time even getting them off with a handcuff kick. So, I demonstrated this to a lot of people, and all of a sudden, it was accepted by the entire Marshal service that you know, these cuffs are not all that secure. Just because you have a set of cuffs on a person, don't think they're secure. I was probably a little bit above strength at that time in my upper body, but my wrists and hands were not--there's a lot of people a lot stronger than I that could snap those cuffs a lot easier than I could. And true, that it would have cut in on your wrists, and it would hurt a little bit, but it was not that---it could not break the skin or--. So, anyway, that was pretty well adopted and--.

Ethel White 45:41

Throughout the service.

Jesse Grider 45:42

Throughout the service.

Ethel White 45:43

I wanted to be clear on that.

Jesse Grider 45:44

Yeah, and then I used to demonstrate it later, when I became an instructor in the marshal service, well I would demonstrate on breaking cuffs, and--.

Ethel White 45:52

Now, when you say that was adopted, you mean putting the key on the inside.

Jesse Grider 45:55

Key on the inside, double lock and--always use the waist chain and put in the keyhole, turn the keyhole toward the body, and even with a key, with trying to--in these hands down here, and trying to get around to undo a lock with the key, was--would take some time. If you were watching the person and if they watched them, there's no way they could have done that, without you noticing. So anyway, that and then the leg irons were the same way, you--you always put leg irons on with the--with the keyhole up. Well, when you're taking them off, you're looking at the keyhole. Where, if the keyhole was turned down towards the ground or the bottom of the foot, then you couldn't--it's awful hard to find the hole. So, marshals normally wouldn't do it, because it meant they had [to] make the prisoners, sit down, hold his legs up, to get to--see the keyhole, to get the leg irons off, and you were just, you were at a disadvantage. And so, it was a very bad situation, because here you were going to be taking leg irons off. And most people, most marshals, I noticed would always take the handcuffs---and then the waist chain off before they took the leg irons. Well, here you are stooped down--in front of an individual. Now, there's just--nobody's given this any thought. I mean, it just doesn't make sense. And so we, you know, I came up with--in the training session that you--that's the last thing you take off. Because you're in a disadvantage of bending down there or making the prisoner, sit down, and you're taking one leg iron off, and then the other. I mean, it's just one leg iron, but it's just large handcuffs is what they are, and this guy could knee you or, you know, knock you in the back of the head, or whatever. And so, that was pretty well adopted and--.

Ethel White 48:14

You said during the training session, but I--.

Jesse Grider 48:17

This, which was later--.

Ethel White 48:18

--Oh, okay.

Jesse Grider 48:18

--It took me a period of time to--.

Ethel White 48:19

Oh, we're not there yet.

Jesse Grider 48:20

--Yeah, but these were things that I began to notice, and I felt that, you know, there's got to be better ways to do these things. And then, a little bit later, then we changed, we had our own handcuffs made, and we changed the entire locking mechanism.

Ethel White 48:41

In the beginning, did you use the same kind of handcuffs that the police were using?

Jesse Grider 48:44

Nationwide, I mean, that was on the only kind you could get. You could go to a pawn shop and buy them or walk in some police supply store and buy it. Handcuff keys were flying a mile a minute, and nobody ever paid that much attention to them. Well, we were used to, as a policeman, you're dealing with--back then, in Glasgow, dealing with day in and day out was, you know, your local drunks and fights and this sort of thing. So, you had no--and mostly--and a lot of times you didn't even handcuff them. You just threw them in back of the police car and took them on in and locked them up.

Ethel White 49:36

Does this---does this description of the handcuffs, the earlier handcuffs, before you had new ones made. Does this fit in with something that I read about, the changes in the marshal service, just about the time you entered in there was a--.

Jesse Grider 49:52

Yes--.

Ethel White 49:53

--New head marshal, and he began to what, refocus the mission, or?

Jesse Grider 49:58

At the time, when I became--when I came into the marshal service, we were sort of the stepchildren of justice. I think the Justice Department thought we were part of the courts, to be truthful. In fact, I recall and--someone asking the president, this was even--well, it was President Ford, which appointed me as the marshal. Asking him if they we were going to send marshal someplace. And he says, "well, that would be up to the courts." They were employees the courts or something to that affect and even he didn't know that we were executive branch of government, but we had a little-- very small staff that ran the marshal service at the Department of Justice in Washington. And we seemed to get whatever, if there's anything left, that then they gave [to] the marshals. And at about the time I started, of course, marshals were not that well-known, other than in their state. Because they had no--it was very seldom that marshals were ever sent out into another district. They just took care of their own district, which western Kentucky consists of fifty-three counties, and we just pretty much took care of ours, took care of our own prisoners and so forth. But things [were] beginning to change in the director's office, then they established the marshal’s director's office [coughs] and started putting more people in and giving them a little bit--and this may have come about, because I think the statutory are used to this. A lot of the stuff has changed, but in the United States Marshal is like a sheriff of account, except he's federal. He--he has a responsibility, the same as a sheriff of a county in Kentucky. He takes care of the prisoners; he takes care of the processes. He takes care of the court, back at that time, which is the same when the sheriff does in the county and taking care of the circuit courts and getting the prisoners to the penitentiaries and serving the processes and this sort of thing. Except we were just on--on the level, our level, or federal level.

Ethel White 53:04

The statute said this.

Jesse Grider 53:05

The statute said that, and so you, the marshal, you have ninety-five districts, and you had ninety-five United States Marshals that were appointed by the President of the United States and confirmed, confirmed by the Senate. With those ninety-five marshals in most cases, they had more power than the --the director of the marshal service. He served at the pleasure of the attorney general. The marshal served at the pleasure of the president, and that has since been changed. Now, the director of the marshal service is also appointed by the president and confirmed in the Senate. So---.

Ethel White 54:02

And did this mean--.

Jesse Grider 54:03

---You had ninety-five districts that were just operating independently. I mean, whatever the marshal did was, that was this district, and he was the Marshal for the Western District Kentucky, or Deputy Marshal for the Western District of Kentucky. Now--and then that changed before I left. That you were in United States Marshall. You know, you were a deputy in the United States Marshal, and not just a particular district.

Ethel White 54:34

I see.

Jesse Grider 54:35

If you went, even after we got into it and they started sending and being one of the younger marshals, I and Gilbert Bryant, which was another deputy marshal that came on in Louisville after I did, were young deputy marshals, and we were the ones that originally got sent out on these things. Because a lot of the other people were older. The deputy marshals were older. Well, they didn't have any age problem, because most of the things they did didn't require youth and this sort of thing. So, when you went into another district just to assist, you had to sign--take an oath and sign another form. And so, of course, that's all been--was done away with after a few years. That you were a United States Marshal, and you were in the United States Marshall, not just a district marshal. Of course, back then, so much has changed. It's hard to---we had, I guess I ought to go back a little bit to the history of the Marshall service. Because then I became a---sort of studied it a little bit and tried to find out as much information as I could. In 1901, there was one United States Marshal for Kentucky. In 1901, the--Kentucky became two districts, the eastern district of Kentucky, headquartered in Lexington, and in the western district of Kentucky, headquartered in Louisville. The United States Marshal for the District of Kentucky became the United States Marshal for the Western District of Kentucky in 1901. I do not know who became the U.S. Marshal for the eastern district, but each district then was required to have one U.S. Marshal. And I have the person's name, I do not recall off top my head, but I have it out because I collected pictures of all the United States Marshals that had been, since 1901.

Ethel White 57:03

In Kentucky?

Jesse Grider 57:04

In--Ken--western Kentucky.

Ethel White 57:05

Western Kentucky.

Jesse Grider 57:07

And so, the--Kentucky was split into two districts. Fifty-three counties made up the western district [of] Kentucky, and sixty-seven counties made up eastern district [of] Kentucky, for a total of one hundred and twenty counties, which consisted the entire state of Kentucky. The western district, which goes to the furthest upriver, would--up the Ohio River, would be Oldham County. Furthest east here would be Jefferson County. Shelby County is a[n] eastern district county, and it takes a line down through Washington County is---into Russell County, all by the Tennessee line. Next up the western district, and as far west as the Mississippi [River], and the Ohio [River] and the Tennessee line. So, at that time, the largest population, of course, was in the western district. They had more counties in eastern, but a lot less population. I'm not sure that's true today, because of growth of Lexington and northern Kentucky and in the Ashland area, but we had the, you know, the Louisville, the Paducah, and the Owensboro and the Bowling Green. Which was probably, Paducah was probably as big as Lexington at that time, I don't know, discounting the college students. Then, the marshal served--the dates, I've forgotten, but when his term was up, I think he resigned and moved back to Muhlenberg County, there down in that area, and ran for Congress and was elected in Congress. Now his picture is, I do not have---I have a picture of all of them, with the exception of the first one, and I know where his picture is. It's at the Filson Club, and it's in a book, and I even have the page number and so forth written down, The History of Muhlenberg County. And this marshal’s pictures in that, and I kept intending, and the Filson Club had said on official stationary, if I'd written them, they send and make me a copy, and send me the picture, which I plan on doing. Because I have all these pictures in the garage, and I'm gonna give them to the marshal service to--and bring it up to date. Of the last marshal picture on there, there's two, three now that's missing. Because I noticed the morning paper that they had just confirmed the new U.S. marshal. 'Big Six' Henderson, William B. Henderson was the was--the last picture that I have in this frame. And after he was--I became the marshal. And of course, my picture's not in there. And after, I then it became Bob Wright from E-town [Elizabethtown], which is--he was the U.S. Marshal in the Carter administration. And then just recently why, Ralph Boland (??) from Hancock County was the marshal under the Reagan and part of the Bush administration, and he was---he retired. He got enough time in to retire and as is now county judge executive of Hancock County. He went back home and ran for county judge and was elected, and I noticed today that they had confirm and appointed a United States Marshal from--the sheriff from Hardin County, E-town. I don't know him, I know of it, but--I don't know him.

Ethel White 1:01:21

All right, so you've been studying the history of the marshal service--.

Jesse Grider 1:01:25

(??).

Ethel White 1:01:25

--And it must have gone along pretty much the same for fifty years, I mean.

Jesse Grider 1:01:31

Fifty years, yeah, and when I came in, and in 1958, you began to see the change.

Ethel White 1:01:39

And do you think it changed? I mean, was it beginning to change before all the Civil Rights stuff, which I have, a sense, helped move the change along but--?

Jesse Grider 1:01:48

I think that was probably the biggest cause of change. I'm sure that there was big change, but I think this probably pushed it, or moved it a little bit faster than what had gone.

Ethel White 1:02:03

Well, maybe we ought to move into that then, although there may be something that happened first though.

Jesse Grider 1:02:09

Well, I don't know, the--.

Ethel White 1:02:14

I mean, you had--your first, well civil rights assignment or desegregation assignment, was Little Rock.

Jesse Grider 1:02:24

Right. Um-hmm.

Ethel White 1:02:24

Was that right? But I wonder if we might be skipping over something. I have a couple of notes here about a bank robber named Charles Allen Walker. Is that--

Jesse Grider 1:02:37

Well, I--.

Ethel White 1:02:38

--Did you have anything to do with that?

Jesse Grider 1:02:40

Yeah, that was just--.

Ethel White 1:02:41

--Or was that before you went to Little Rock.

Jesse Grider 1:02:42

Well, I don't recall he--Walker was a fellow from Canton, Ohio, I believe. And I think he hit the bank on Dixie Highway or was charged with robbing the bank on Dixie Highway of a little over $100,000. He got completely away, and I do not know how they--how they ended--how the Bureau--FBI finally got it, charged him with it. [Tape cuts off]

Ethel White 1:03:13

Have anything to do with this man except--.

Jesse Grider 1:04:25

No.

Ethel White 1:04:25

--In court.

Jesse Grider 1:04:25

No, just other than handling as a--.

Ethel White 1:04:27

Okay.

Jesse Grider 1:04:27

--As a defendant in the federal courts--.

Ethel White 1:04:30

Okay.

Jesse Grider 1:04:30

--Which we had handled.

Ethel White 1:04:33

Well then was, was Little Rock your first assignment of any major proportion. Is there anything we need to talk about before Little Rock?

Jesse Grider 1:04:45

Well, I was trying to think, I don't recall--that's coming--that's really testing in your memory, and I don't have anything written down.

Ethel White 1:04:54

Well, you were, you joined the marshal service in the--January of 1958.

Jesse Grider 1:04:58

April.

Ethel White 1:04:59

Or April of '58 and you were sent to Little Rock in the fall, right?

Jesse Grider 1:05:08

Right.

Ethel White 1:05:08

So--.

Jesse Grider 1:05:09

But I--somewhere, and I don't remember whether, I think it would--might have been before then that we, Gilbert Bryant and I were sent to Terre Haute to assist in a---gambling trial, which involved the sheriff of Marion County of Indianapolis, and I'm thinking that trial was before, before the fall.

Ethel White 1:05:41

Okay, well, let's talk about it. We don't have to worry too much if it's--.

Jesse Grider 1:05:45

Okay.

Ethel White 1:05:46

--Out of sequence.

Jesse Grider 1:05:46

And then well, it really isn't all that much to talk about it. It's the first time that, I think, that any marshal was sent out of his district from western Kentucky to assist other--other districts. And this was getting an awful lot of publicity, probably nationwide, and certainly in Indiana. Because there were some pretty important or well-known people that supposedly had done gambling through some bookies in Indianapolis, and which involved the sheriff. And I recall one witness in particular was, and I do not know his name, other than he was Groucho Marx's brother that came in and testified. That he had--was quite a gambler and had bet on a lot of sporting events, through Indianapolis and through these bookies. And that I don't recall his actual testimony, but some way, he linked the sheriff into--to how he knew how to make these bets or whatever. And lost several thousand dollars, but my main job there was that the jury was sequestered. And a sequestered jury, in which--means that they're--once they're selected and qualified to sit as a jury in a particular trial, the courts may sequester them. Which puts them in the custody of the marshal, twenty-four hours a day. And they have no contact with anyone, other than those that are approved by the court and with a marshal listening to the conversation. And you do--the courts do this--.

Ethel White 1:07:47

Now, you listen to what conversation?

Jesse Grider 1:07:49

Any conversation that a juror may have at night and calling his wife or their husband or children, or whatever. Ours, the marshal would take them to church on Sundays, and the marshal would take them bowling. And you--they had all their meals with a marshal. They had their pre-dinner toddy with them. Marshall controlling the booze. Everything that was moved, they moved with a marshal.

Ethel White 1:08:27

So like--

Jesse Grider 1:08:28

Whether it was a group or as an independent jurors. [juror]

Ethel White 1:08:31

Each juror had one marshal assigned to them.

Jesse Grider 1:08:34

No, no you--you sequestered them, but you had to work out a schedule, when a juror needed to go home. To pick up new clothes or shaving, which they all had to do the first day. Then, a marshal would escort one juror home and stay with him to be sure he didn't discuss the case or say anything. And we had to do this for all--I've forgotten how many ultimate jurors, but you had 12 regular juries, and not probably six or eight alternates, and so each one of them, of course, you had to take home and stay with them to be sure they didn't even discuss anything pertaining to the case with their--their spouses, or anyone else. Any telephone calls--they were permitted to use a phone, if not to call, but all the phone calls, the marshal would set up a one room as sort of a CP with the television, and all telephone calls had to be made out of that room and incoming into that room. And then you the marshal could let the individual talk in his room with the understanding that you were listening to the conversation. And that you were keeping a log, not necessarily what was said, but just a log to indicate that there was nothing in this discussion pertaining anything to this case and so forth.

Ethel White 1:10:12

But now was anyone helping you, were there other marshals?

Jesse Grider 1:10:14

Oh, yeah, there was several of us.

Ethel White 1:10:15

How many of you for--for these eighteen or so people?

Jesse Grider 1:10:18

Well, I think there were only four outside marshals, but like at night, then the local marshals would be there, or on weekends, they would be there. And you had some jurors that--that wanted to go to church. You had several different, I think the first time I was ever in a Catholic Church, I went with a juror, and I didn't know when to stand, when to kneel, and he finally told me just sit still. Because they were wearing me out. [laughs] and finally I realized I didn't have to kneel or whatever, and I just sat there. But you had Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, and all different nominations, and so anyway, we would try to get everybody to their church of choice. You had some that liked to bowl. You had some that liked play golf, and you tried to keep them as close to normal as possible.

Ethel White 1:11:24

Close to a normal life for them, you mean?

Jesse Grider 1:11:26

Right, and you know, they had to get out some. Because they were sitting in court all day, and then their meals were all handled together. We would, we had a set up there. We stayed in the Terre Haute House, I believe, which was a hotel, and we had it set up there, and we had a particular area that we'd bring them all in, and we would feed them. And every once in a while, on the weekends, we would take them someplace different, so they could have a different meal, rather than just what was served there.

Ethel White 1:12:02

How long did this go on?

Jesse Grider 1:12:03

That went on for like a month or so, and we--we had the entire floor the Terre Haute House. And I took care--I was at the hotel all time. I very seldom was ever in court. Sometimes maybe take the jury over, and then I would come back and---.

Ethel White 1:12:28

What would you do all day?

Jesse Grider 1:12:30

--Then I would sleep. Sleep because I would be up mostly at night. Then, of course, we had the one marshal on duty twenty-four hours a day in the CP, and we had a table set up, as you get off the elevator there in sort of lobby-like area. So, we, watched the stairs and the elevator, which was there close together. So--.

Ethel White 1:12:53

You really had to make sure that they obeyed their--.

Jesse Grider 1:12:57

Oh, yeah, they--.

Ethel White 1:12:58

--Order for being sequestered.

Jesse Grider 1:12:59

--We watched everything that was done, and there was very few things that was done without. I mean, they'd sleep in a room by themselves, but other than that, that's, that's it.

Ethel White 1:13:10

Well, couldn't they use the phone? I mean--.

Jesse Grider 1:13:12

No--.

Ethel White 1:13:12

--On the sly? I mean, but I know they weren't supposed to, but---.

Jesse Grider 1:13:15

--No, they--.

Ethel White 1:13:15

--They couldn't---.

Jesse Grider 1:13:15

--That was not--.

Ethel White 1:13:16

--Get away with it.

Jesse Grider 1:13:16

No, the phones were set up as such that--we had the operators to set them up as such, where they could not call out. There was no way they could communicate with anybody, not even the maids. Because we made them come in after the jury's gone, if they wanted anything. But the newspapers were all delivered to our CP. We scanned the newspapers to be sure that anything was cut out, which we would physically cut out, pertaining to this case. A lot of times you're doing that. Course, you ruined part of the paper that on the backside that you know, all TV had to be watched in one room, and a marshal sitting there to watch it. To be able to flip it off if something did come in pertaining to a case.

Ethel White 1:13:25

No. Do they---they still do it that way today?

Jesse Grider 1:14:13

They still do it yeah, the same way.

Ethel White 1:14:14

Did any of these jurors try to burst--.

Jesse Grider 1:14:18

No.

Ethel White 1:14:18

--Their bonds.

Jesse Grider 1:14:19

No, they were very--.

Ethel White 1:14:20

Cooperative.

Jesse Grider 1:14:21

After a while, you begin to get on each other's nerves a little bit. But overall, they--they understood, and they were very easy to get along with. And of course, we would lean over backwards to be sure they had everything they wanted. A lot of them, and when they'd go to dinner, they'd like to have--a have a drink before dinner. And of course, we cleared most things through the judge and the government would--the judge did issue an order that we were to pay their expenses. Of course, their meals, and that they were entitled to two drinks before dinner, those that liked to have it. Those that liked to have a little nightcap before they go to bed, we kept their bottles with their names on them in the CP, and they had to come in there to--to pour their--their drink, whatever it was, and they poured it out of their bottle. And the government--we did not buy that, that was purchased by them. We would buy it, but with their money. And so, and they were pretty good, and that was one of the really shorter ones. We've had sequestered jurors, that--I know I worked a Hoffa trial down in Chattanooga, and that went on for about three months and--.

Ethel White 1:15:56

That was in the 60s, right?

Jesse Grider 1:15:58

Um--hmm. And we've had sequestered jurors, where we've had divorces and fall on the jury and marriages after, that's result of a couple being on the jury together [laughs]. So, there's--it's pretty touchy. You know, after putting a--total strangers together for two or three months and just almost twenty-four hours a day, and it gets pretty testy, and we'd permit them play cards. You know, some of them fellas liked to play a little poker and why, we let that happen. And some of the ladies like play bridge and we furnished them that opportunity, or whatever, whatever we could do within reason, well we would try to do it--.

Ethel White 1:16:55

Yeah.

Jesse Grider 1:16:55

To make it as normal every day as we could.

Ethel White 1:16:58

Just to repeat, you didn't get into the courtroom much.

Jesse Grider 1:17:01

No--no.

Ethel White 1:17:01

In this particular trial.

Jesse Grider 1:17:02

In this particular trial. And I'm not sure whether that was before or after the Little Rock.

Ethel White 1:17:10

Did they convict the sheriff?

Jesse Grider 1:17:11

Yes.

Ethel White 1:17:12

Okay.

Jesse Grider 1:17:12

Yeah, and I do not re--. And we did have one scary---and I'm sure---not what happened. One night, the United States Attorney kept--had rented a floor below the jury, several rooms. And they kept all of their file cabinets and their evidence and records in--in this room, and a fire broke out in---on that floor. And I do not recall what room or where it was, but anyway, they this shook everyone up because they felt like it could have been intentional and hoping to--to blow the government's case with all these records, and--.

Ethel White 1:18:03

But they never proved it.

Jesse Grider 1:18:04

Come to the table--. --Burn, but they, as far as I know, nothing was ever proven. But we did have to--we did have to evacuate the jury, and which is a thing of concern because, you know, late at night, and having to take eighteen or twenty jurors out and three or four marshals, and I was a little bit concerned, but nothing really ever came out of it. And they did call and convict the sheriff, and there was [were] a lot of fun things too. Because, you know, I guess we were young and playful too. And I know one night, I was working one end of the corridor, and in order to get a little fresh air, you could raise a window there and step out on the roof. And so, I did this, and the roof was a flat roof, with gravel spread over it, as most flat roofs are, I think and some of these stones were loose. And Gilbert Bryant was the other marshal, and he was at the other end of the corridor. So, we would walk back and forth, and chit chat a little bit. This is normally after the jurors had gone to bed. And so, I had decided I needed a little fresh air, and so, I raised that window and stepped out on the roof. Well, on the corner was another window, and so I--I saw Gilbert come up to the table, and I heard him call my name and--. Which is outside.

Ethel White 1:18:27

You mean he was inside or outside?

Jesse Grider 1:18:45

--Inside, and I was outside on the roof. And he came up chit chatting a little bit, I mean. So, he walked over to the window, and he was looking. And of course, it was pitch dark, and I took one of these little gravel [pieces] and hit that window with it. And he thought someone had shot, I guess [chuckles] but he jumped about three feet. Now I got tickled, and of course, he heard me, and I came back in. And we had the table that's similar to this one. Round, huge, round table, and we had a tablecloth over it, sitting there as sort of a desk on that side of the elevator. And we would permit the jurors play cards there. And then we used it as a desk, also to sit at during the night, and the tablecloth spread over it. And when I went to the floor, and I saw Gilbert coming up one particular night or some of them early morning hours, and I got under that table. Well, that tablecloth, of course, he couldn't see me, and he's looking out on the roof because I had thrown that gravel before. And he figured I might have been-so, I reached out from under there and grabbed him with by the leg, and again, it scared the hell out of him. And but anyway, that was just a few playful things to--that you do when you get bored, I guess. And after that, the case was over, well we--we came on after the jury had reached their verdict and got them back home, and then, I think, is the next was Little Rock.

Ethel White 1:21:33

Okay--.

Jesse Grider 1:21:34

And then--.

Ethel White 1:21:36

--Go ahead.

Jesse Grider 1:21:37

--Little Rock. And you'll have to check this out, which can be done easily enough but [in] 1957 the federal courts ordered the public schools particularly Central; I believe. And I have a picture somewhere of the school and me on the steps of it, but had ordered those schools to integrate, or that school.

Ethel White 1:22:09

Central High School.

Jesse Grider 1:22:10

Central High School. [Orval] Faubus was the governor of Arkansas at the time, and he was not going to let the schools be integrated, and he refused to obey by the district court--federal court order. And when schools opened up--now, I'm-- this was before I became a marshal, so I'm going a little bit on what I've heard since, and what little I read about it that time. And so, they--the day that school was to open, I think all hell broke loose, and that they would not let the Black students come to Central High School. [clears throat] So, [Dwight] Eisenhower was President of the United States at the time, and he ordered the troops in to keep the peace and see that the federal court, which the president has a power.

Ethel White 1:23:25

And by troops--this was the National Guard.

Jesse Grider 1:23:28

No, I think he called out the 82nd.

Ethel White 1:23:32

Okay.

Jesse Grider 1:23:33

Regular Army.

Ethel White 1:23:34

Okay.

Jesse Grider 1:23:35

And maybe the 82nd airborne, I think but I--.

Ethel White 1:23:38

Okay, I'd forgotten. Now, why would they--explain why they decided to send marshals and not troops? This was for the second year. This was the fall when school was due to open. Is that right?

Jesse Grider 1:23:39

--You'd have to check that. So, they closed the schools. Faubus says that you know--that they would not integrate the schools. He would close them before they would integrate them. And which he did, I think, was his words. I'm not certain of that but anyway, the schools closed. And I think they--there was a lot of stuff going on there for a day or two before he decided to close the schools, which got pretty unruly and--and required the troops to use and break up a lot of mobs and riot type conditions and so forth. So, I think the school stayed closed the entire year. Particularly the Central, and I don't know about the others. Why, and because of that, then I think a lot of other private schools started popping up and trying to get these kids an education of some sort. So, in 1958 then, instead of sending the troops in, the order was still outstanding that Central High. School would be integrated. And they decided to send marshals in, and no troops, to get into the school. Of course, anytime these situations are going on, the military did have an observer. They sometimes called them liaison or observers or whatever, but they were the contact person should things get completely out of hand. And even the civilian law enforcement were not able to handle it, including the U.S. Marshals or FBI or whoever. Well, I would presume it would have a lot to do with politics and the black eye of having to take the United States Army to keep peace in the United States. I--you know, I'm just reading between the lines on a lot of it. And that they did not like all these pictures going worldwide of using the military against the civilians of this country.

Ethel White 1:26:24

We looked like a dictatorship, I guess.

Jesse Grider 1:26:26

Right, and this is something you would see out of Hitler or Russia or somewhere at that time, but not in the United States. And so, I presume that there was lot of these things that were taken into consideration. And someone came up the idea, well, it's a federal court order, it's United States Marshals' responsibility to enforce the court orders. They take an oath, in fact, it's part of their oath that they will enforce orders of this court and make proper returns and so forth on process.

Ethel White 1:27:05

And.

Jesse Grider 1:27:05

So--.

Ethel White 1:27:06

You were plane clothesmen, is that right?

Jesse Grider 1:27:08

Right.

Ethel White 1:27:08

So, there were no uniforms.

Jesse Grider 1:27:09

We had no uniforms. The schools didn't open, so we didn't do an awful lot, the first day the school opened. I mean, that the school was to open. There was an awful lot of mobs around there, but no one showed up.

Ethel White 1:27:30

So, the schools actually opened, but nobody came--.

Jesse Grider 1:27:32

No one showed up. And we did not physically take a Afro American or negro or Black, whatever--at that time you know, things changed so fast you don't really know how to--. And we did not physically escort anyone in, but I think a lot of these teachers, and I really don't recall--the marshal was a fellow the name of kid, K-I-D-D, for the--for Little Rock.

Ethel White 1:28:14

Marshal for Little Rock?

Jesse Grider 1:28:18

[Coughs] K-I-D-D-. And I really don't know why these temporary restraining orders were served on an awful lot of teachers and this sort of thing, but what we did was served. And I know myself and ten or fifteen other marshals did serve an awful lot of temporary restraining orders.

Ethel White 1:28:41

On teachers.

Jesse Grider 1:28:42

On teachers and the principals and [coughs] this sort of thing.

Ethel White 1:28:51

Pause button to get a little water here. Go ahead.

Jesse Grider 1:29:00

We served an awful lot of restraining orders and--throughout the Little Rock area.

Ethel White 1:29:07

Now, what were you restraining the teachers and principals?--.

Jesse Grider 1:29:09

I don't--.

Ethel White 1:29:10

--From doing--

Jesse Grider 1:29:11

--Recall. I think that the restraining order was saying that if those, if Central High School opened, it would open under an integration order, and it just kept them from--. Now, I'm not certain on this, but this kept them from trying to open the school and keep it segregated, and it kept the principal, superintendents, the teachers, and everyone involved in Central High School, from attending that school, without it being integrated. And so, after we realized--or the powers to be had realized that there was not going to be anything--that much for marshals to do. And I do not recall how many were there, but several of us that they wanted about four of us to stay, and to assist in case anything did come up. And I was one of those fellows. [Tape cuts off]