Oral History Interview with Pee Wee King

And he's going to bring his movie camera and make the presentation of it, and Redd and Darlene (??), so there are two parts. So, I'm on the move a lot. Johnny Mack Brown is the same pleasant man he appears to be in the movies. He's a wonderful guy. I didn't meet any of his family — we didn't see any. He took us to one of the high-class restaurants, to the Brown Derby or something like that.

It called for a 50-day contract for the musicians. We had to pay on the scale salary. We were on call all the time, I think we were out there 10-11 days, or maybe the whole 50.

I was also in "The Durango Kid." That was in 1952. I don't remember how that one came about. Oh, we made that contact when we were at Riverside Rancho in California, it's the biggest Western dance hall in that part of the country, on Colonial Boulevard. We were playing there — had a two-week engagement there, or a two-week option. It's in Riverside, California. That was in 1952. Mr. Frank booked that.

We used a band in "The Durango Kid"— a shoot-'em-up cowboy picture — very good Even Hatton (??) was in [that] dat one, too. Mr. Frank, I, and the band went. This was a different band from 1945. This is the band that made the records. Redd Stewart, Gene Stewart, and all the Golden West Cowboys — it got all the awards.

This movie was different in that we did a lot of shooting' at the studios. There were [was] so much studio work like the bar scenes and that. And we used the whole Columbia set. And that was at that time downtown. See, the Riverside Rancho was on Riverside Drive in Hollywood and the Columbia Studios was down in that same neighborhood. And that's where shot a lot of the movie. This third film and the fourth one were Columbia Pictures. The first one had been Republic, and the second one Monogram.

I was getting increased fees for my film performances. That was one of the reasons I think Mr. Frank booked us a double thing. We got the two weeks with the two-week option playing the Riverside Rancho. We worked Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays. Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays were available. So, three days of the week — we'd either work three days a week right straight through or Monday, Wednesday, and Friday — a split week. But we had to be at the Riverside Rancho Saturday and Sunday. So, we were playing the engagement at the Riverside Rancho at the same time we were maki.ng the movie.

And Mr. Frank arranged for both engagements, and we had our publishing company out there, too, at that time. Publishing and record company — that was our second attempt we had. Before it went down the drain when the ASCAP- [American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers] BMI [Broadcast Music Incorporated] strike happened and personal records, and there we are with a record company and no records.

The fourth movie I did was "Riding the Outlaw Trail", and the real shoot-‘em-up cowboy picture was "Rough, Tough West." They were made together — one after the other, (they were made in 1952.) We were out there for a month. And my band was in both of them — the big band.

I didn't make any more movies after "Rough, Tough West." I never got invited again — Mr. Frank was gone. So, I had to become my own manager. He was more than a manager and father-in-law to me — he was it, to me. He had a knack of doing the right thing at the right time at the right place, for the right people.

Gene wanted him to go out there so bad. He said, “nope, I don't think I like California. Says, “I'm not--,” he would have felt out of place there among the tycoons and all that because he wasn't that type of a man. But he was extremely successful doing what he did. He lived on that theory — when you're doing a thing, do it the best you can. That old staying, things done by half are never done right — applied to him.

In addition to me he managed Eddy Arnold, Minnie Pearl, Roy Acuff, Ernest Tubb, Cowboy Copas, (??) Grandpa Jones, Archie Campbell. Some of the greats in country music. It was like a stepping stone for them because they got into the Opry. Minnie Pearl used to be very active until recently — she had a stroke in Joliet, Illinois. That's the date we played. They flew her home. She's in a wheelchair. It happened last year — 1991. Her doctors won't let her perform on television now. She would love to — I talked to her husband Henry not long ago — now they’ve got a 24-hour nurse. She's 78 years old. She was always active and energetic — that was her life — show business. She started out in a tent show. That's where she got the name Minnie Pearl. The place that she boarded at — Mr. Sewell used to board those people and Actors Theatre Guild was all it was. It's like they got that knotted Indian sign — doing the same thing they did on the outside.

There weren’t' boarding houses for actors and entertainers especially — just people who would take people in. Some boarding houses we stayed in people [people] had relinquished their rooms one or two nights so we would have a place to stay or wouldn't have to leave, because if we had to come back to Nashville, we couldn't have made it. We stayed at places where, some catering to the entertainment industry —where you could get your meals, too — breakfast, dinner, and supper. And board and bed — and now it's a very common, successful thing around the country.

I met Ernest Tubb in 1945. He joined us by himself. He gave up his job advertising beer down in San Antone. He was working San Antonio at KONO, and then he left there and got the beer program and that's where we met him then. And Mr. Frank hired him to come to the Grand Ole Opry. He appeared on our radio show — Pee Wee King radio show — on WSM, and stayed with us a couple of months, several months. He got so big the mail came pouring in when he was selling this book on the Grand Ole Opry. The mail poured in the way it used to do for Asher and Little Jimmy, so Mr. Frank started to put together a band for him, too. So, he brought the two Short Bros, from Texas to join in — the Texas Troubadours — that's where he got the name.

Ernest Tubb and the Texas Troubadours. Mr. Frank helped him put together the band. Ernest took one of my musicians; he took a fiddle player from me. Later on, somebody else wanted to go with Ernest — I forget — it was a bass player or something. He got his group together the latter part of '45.

Grandpa Jones come to work for me in 1944. Cowboy Copas. Cowboy Copas wasn't as well-known as some of the others. He died in that airplane crash at the peak of his career. And God knows how big he would have been because Mr. Frank was his manager at the time. And Copas had a couple of good records on King Records — a small label but still, he was selling records like crazy. He was the second one to record "Tennessee Waltz." He was from Oklahoma, and he was the one who suggested I hire Grandpa Jones to work with Minnie as a comedian. And Grandpa was an established comedian already. Lot of good talent there.

I always said hire somebody who likes what he's doing but don't get a temperamental artist that thinks he's a star already. And we've had a couple of those. Mr. Frank once found a boy up in South Carolina — a blond headed boy — and tried to make another Gene Autry out of him. And he was married and had two kids. And they brought him to Nashville. His wife was so dissatisfied that she threatened to move back home and leave him. And that guy says, “Mr. Frank, I don't thank the fact that my wife is unhappy — I'm not as big a star as I thought I was in South Carolina.” He said, “I was a big name in South Carolina, but nobody knows me here.” And he got disgusted and quit. His name was Royce Sprayberry and he changed his name to Roy Spray; he didn't like that either.

And another time a big artist--Jesse Rodgers from Philadelphia. He his and wife were the hottest Western act in the Philadelphia area. They were on the big radio station there, and on TV. He talked to Mr. Frank trying to get him to bring him to the Grand Ole Opry. Jesse Rodgers’ wife thought she was a big star, so she was going to stay there in Philadelphia, and Jesse was going to come to Nashville. Jesse come [came] to Nashville, and they broke in[to] his car and stole all his wardrobe. He was in the parking lot by the hotel/near the Grand 01e Opry. Well, that discouraged him right then and there. I think he appeared as a guest on our show about twice at the Grand Ole Opry, and he packed up and went back/ o Philly. He passed away right after that. He and his wife still stayed together [professionally] she became a star then.

Nothing ever happened to Royce Sprayberry, that I know of. He didn't even get his job back when he went back to South Carolina, an auto dealer was his sponsor in South Carolina. I think he was from Columbia, South Carolina.

To be a success in country music, you got to have talent and push. A lot of drive — I mean you [have] got to be dedicated. Just like Minnie Pearl said, “we don't do this for the money. We do it for the love of it because there is no money in show business.” Not in our day it [there] wasn't. We were all about in the same boat. Like Minnie says, “how do you tell the difference between a goose and a gander?” She says, “just throw them out in the yard and let them figure it out for themselves! “That's the way show business is. You can tell who's going to be a star up-and-coming.

We knew Wayne Newton was going to make it just as soon as Jackie Gleason got him. Jackie Gleason discovered Wayne Newton. I know Wayne Newton — a good guy. They can say what they want to about him going to Las Vegas — you gotta be Las Vegas to know Las Vegas. And you don't become [of] the Number one entertainers in las Vegas seven years in a row and you got all that talent to compete with, so he had it. I met Wayne Newton at Hillbilly Park In Ohio. He and his brother Jerry worked together. They were called the Newton Brothers. And Jerry was the main honcho; he took care of all the business; and Wayne was about 16 years old. I watched 'em work that stage. I knew there's a kid who could do it because he was playing a fiddle, guitar, banjo, and steel guitar. And got up and tied that park so — we had about 6,000 people in the park — and they got encore after encore — Wayne did. Jerry was smart enough to know I got to push him because I'm [he’s] secondary.

He was pudgy; he was fat. And his voice was a little high pitched. But he had talent. You can tell when a kid's got it. That's the hardest thing in show business to follow a kid act or a dog act. There were about five acts at that show in Ohio, with Wayne Newton appearing, and we were one of them. There was also the Summer Barn Dance from Wheeling, us from Louisville, and one of the acts from the Grand Ole Opry — I think the Movin (???) Bros. — they're from Alabama too. Peaplckers — Alonzo and Oscar.

When the tabloids start pickin' on you, you'd better look out [referring to allegations that Wayne Newton may have mob connections]. And when Johnny Carson said, “that'll be the last time Wayne Newton is on my show,” he said, “I don't give a damn.” There was some kind of friction between Newton and Carson; they didn't get along. Wayne Newton knew that Johnny didn't like him; and Johnny Carson knew that Wayne did not like him. Wayne Newton started out as a country performer, and now he's pops [pop]. You got to in Vegas--you got to do everything. He still sings country songs on his shows. He was raised in Ohio on the West Virginia border. He called West Virginia home for a while, then Ohio, and then went out to Calif.

I can't remember anyone in country music I was surprised to see become a success, Someone I thought didn't have much talent but made it anyway. But I

can think of some in pop music — specifically rock 'n roll. For instance, Conway Twitty, switched from rock 'n' roll to country. He's got good talent and all that — he's a star — but he's not a vivacious type on the stage. Just one song after the other — just grind 'em out. He doesn't have the stage presence or the songs. He don't [doesn’t] electrify like Hank Jr.

Hank Jr. right now is to me the top country music star entertainer in the business. From the standpoint of entertaining the public. Although Garth Brooks is really number one, but in my estimation, if you were supposed [suppose you] to put Garth Brooks and Hank Jr. on stage together and let each one do his show, I haven’t seen Garth do as much as Hank has. I've seen Hank's show several times. So, I don't know how far he extends himself, but Hank goes all the way.

Randy Travis is a good kid, and he was very nice to me when we played Toronto, but Randy would have---like Alabama — I didn't like their wardrobe at first. [They] Dey had

the talent but they had to find themselves. Come out there with them [those] goofy outfits — tennis shoes, Tuxedo jacket and all that — T-shirts — but the entertainment was there.

It takes a little time to find your niche, to create your image. I learned if you 've got a way to get to the public with your talent — your music talent — your acting talent — your sports talent — or whatever — be the best that you can. And our band — the reason they were picked number one — they were all striving for the same thing. I was the happiest guy in the world — for them — because they knew they were good, and they had a [to] be good; otherwise, we wouldn't have gotten to number one (??). So, I give a lot of credit to the boys in the band.

Still, you've got to have a Vaughn Monroe with his orchestra, a Guy Lombardo with his orchestra, you got to have a Pee Wee King with his orchestra. There's something that we had together that you could tell. The kind of image we wanted to project. Well, we wanted to have hit records. Without the hit records, you couldn't make it. You gotta have that. And when I look through my scrapbooks now and look at how many hits we had — oh, my gosh — on record--and still, the two that popped up or three that came out to get us the awards — to became standards.

And some of the other songs — "Changing Partners" — a lot of times, people thought that was our song because it was so much like "Tennessee Waltz." I know 'em like the back of my hand. "Changing Partners'" was written by two fine writers from New York —got a lot of awards when we went together. Good songs — I wished that we had a chance to record — at one time I wanted to record — "You Call Everybody Darling." And I couldn't get Steve (??) to let me do it because he said, “it didn't fit your style. Waltzes are going to be your style.” I said, Steve, “we got a heck of an arrangement on it.” He said,” I don't know; I think we'll have to wait till later on — I don't want It.”

And the very first song I did was “You Call Everybody Darling Square Dance." It was in a square dance album and kit was the number one song in the square dance album. People would request it all the time. "You Call Everybody Darling" was written by a guy in England. And what's his name in Chicago recorded it. It was popular in 1950, and '49 maybe. A good dance tune.

Be sure and add the radio station in New Guinea. Morotai, New Guinea. And in the Philippines. And he came back in Dec. '46, Redd Stewart. Redd and I had an era that just at the right time for composing and recording. And now, we couldn't get arrested. If we tried to record today, our type of music doesn't go. But people know our songs from an earlier time. Like my brother said, he said,” I wouldn't go back and record any of it if I were you because everybody's got the songs already.”

You not only have to have talent but also luck. Be at the right place at the right time. Like songwriters think they can sit down and just right a hit song for a movie; you can't — you've got to have an ideal what the script is like, what the mood's gonna be. I still say one of the greatest things that happened to me was meeting Wayne King because he says, “watch the feet to set the beat. Watch the feet to set the beat.” The two-step is one thing, and the waltz is another.

Not all of our songs were dance songs. We have written some songs that tell a story. "She met a man in Heaven,"[he hums.] It's a tragedy song. But most of our music — songs — was [were] Intended to make people happy or dance.

I have saved our vapors (??) from 1954 all the way to '89. The piectures [pictures]in the programs — souvenir books — that speaks for itself 'cause that coincides with this. Here's the typical schedule that we had. In 1954, we had 27 shows, on Cleveland {???), Jan. 15th, Shepherdsville, 16th, Fort Knox, 17th, Indianapolis, then we go to Little Rock and Memphis, Kansas City, St. Joe, Mo., Jasper, Ind., Huntingburg at the fair, E-Town, [Elizabethtown] Ky, the dance. Canton, Ohio, Hot Springs, Ark., Little Rock, Texarkana, Sheboygan., Tacana (??), Tell City, Indiana. These are day after day. Vermillion, Ohio, Ashtabula, St. Louis, Mo, Cincinnati, Chattanooga, St. John’s Picnic right here, Evansville, Ind. Metropolis, Ill, Knoxville, Tenn., Sparta, Ill., Vermillion, Ohio, Danville, Ill., Mt. Vermon, Ill. Herrin, Ill., South Roxana at the park, Ill., Eleanor, Ind., Waterloo, Iowa, Austin, Minn., Sioux Falls, S.D., Mason City, Iowa, Madison, Iowa. Marlon, Iowa, Terry, Iowa, Burlington, Iowa, Mason City, Iowa, Kukono, Wisc., Mason, Mich., Shafferstown, Penn., Pottstown, New York recording, Columbus, Ind., — that was the days of the airplane — Fairburg, Ill., Edwardsville, Ohio at the lake, right out of Cincinnati.

Mulberry, Ind., Myron, Mich., Traverse City, Philadelphia, Ohio, Angola, Ind., that's (??) Ranch, Ellettsville, Ind., Montgomery, Ala., Nashville, Tenn. Two days, Wichita, Kan., Topeka, (??), Ill.., Cincinnati, Ohio.

I had to come In town for a TV trial — Billings, Mont., and then we're going to stay there because we're going to come back to Billings anyhow. Bloomington, and then we go back to Billings, Mont., Chicago at the country club, Dubuque, Iowa, Springfield, Ill., Tulsa, Okla., Enid, Okla., Norman, Okla.

In 1954, we were traveling by car with the vans. Some of these dates were by plane, however. Some were every night a different place. For instance, Nov. 1st in Enid, Okla., Oct. 30th in Tulsa, Oct. 31st in Oklahoma City, Nov. 2nd In Norman, Oklahoma, at the college, [University of Oklahoma] and then we came home, and it was TV for Cincinnati, which was always on a Wednesday. Lexington, Ky., then Cincinnati again.

We traveled in two vans. Once in a while we would rehearse on the road if we got an idea for a song or getting ready for a session to do an album. Then we'd stay at a pretty nice hotel and take our instruments up there, and lock ourself[ves] off and have a few days off and not travel. Some of these towns I mentioned we had a rehearsal with a record session. With the shows we'd do pretty much the same. Unless situations came up when we had something else to do. With Redd coming back from the Army, that made a big change for us. Up until then we had several singers but no one voice that represented the Golden West Cowboys as much as he did.