Oral History Interview with Pee Wee King

“King,” he said, “somebody slipped me a mickey.” In other words, he said, “what I'm tryin' to say is that it leaked out — my bid leaked out and it was supposed to be a closed bid or money — from all my money (??)” -- it was supposed to be secretive and only the high[est] bidder would get it. And of course, Mr. Gaylord became the high[est] bidder. And he forgot all about his Dallas thing here because here was the package all built — he'd have to start from scratch to have what he's got today, if he had done it in Dallas.

And he had already put — I'm surmising this — guys like Garth Brooks and George Straight, Reba McEntire — some of these people — all under contract already. So, he had a nucleus of a hell of a barn dance, in Dallas. And these were all the Western people. So, they catered to their — there's a little barn dance over there in Grapevine Texas — they pack and jammed it when I played it years ago. Only had about 700 or 800 seats, but it was packed and jammed every time we played there. And those malls I played over there — the same thing. They like cowboy music, cowboy looks, they like cowboy dress and they like the cowboy atmosphere. And they're very clannish.

So, here's Mr. Gaylord. Then, he gets the idea to start outlittle [out little] branches like an octopus. Here's the claws (??) over here and branch out go to Atlanta —do a show out of Atlanta, put it on the air. Go down to Florida fishin' — put it on the air. Go to the racetrack where the automobiles [are] — put 'em on the air. Every phase of the business — cookin' — Florence Henderson does the cookin' — and he's got good people in there and he's got everyone of 'em — like Ralph Emery who was top disc jockey down in Nashville, so why not hire him as the top guy on television. And from dere [there], I imagine -was de [the] whole idea.

But I think he already had this idea before he bought Opryland, and WSM — probably didn't even know it was for sale. You know, he just ... it cost $650 million, but he's made a lot ofmoney [of money] on it since then. [Before Turner News Network], he just had these people under contract with no place to play. And now they've got Opryland and TNN [Turner News Network] and "Hee Haw.” And what a change they made in "Hee Haw." But I don't blame 'em — dat's de [that’s the] name of the ball game. Nothing is forever — 'at's [that’s] what Gene Autry told 'em (??). And nothing is being done that hasn't been done before. And he'd always say, “and don't I know it!” [chuckles]

I knew Grady Nutt. Oh, we lost a good comic and a good man. He was a good guy. I met him and his wife when they had an apartment in Trevilian Way. There were some pretty good other comic talents on "Hee Haw" — his competition, so to speak. You[‘ve] got Archie Campbell, you[‘ve] got Grandpa Jones, you[‘ve] got Junior Samples---you[‘ve] got about 7 comics on that show. So, when a guest comes in, he's really got a [to] pitch! In other words, he goes to bat with three strikes on 'im [him] already. There was a lot of competition and they didn't have time for any one person to be showcased very much. Everyody loved ‘im [him]—Grady Nutt. He was a natural comic. A guy like that is Billy Ed Wheeler. I knew him, too. And I like Jim Stafford, too. He sort of comes off pretty raw once in a while, but he tests his audience, and I liked his opening line when the minute he steps on stage, back in the years when he was datin' this little girl that went to Las Vegas and made it big — she married that guy who owned that big club and den he passed away — she was the one who sang "Ode to Billy Joe." And she was married to Jim Stafford for a short while. And this guy says, “what kind of a woman was that wife of yours?” He says, “who cares, and I don't give a damn!”

I watch the Nashville Network — every chance — when I take time out. And if there's some other good movie or somepin [something] like that — I've seen Ralph interview so much that I know it's the usual thing that he does. And they're there for one reason— to plug their dates, plug a book, or plug a song or an album. And so, why listen to that when you can see a real good movie? I don't have the chance to watch Ralph Emery too much because he's only gonna be on for an hour.

I like "Austin City Limits" on PBS. But on TNN, I like "Texas Connection" and I like that dance part they[‘ve] got — the two-step — the dance club. And den [then] I like the Chattanooga outfit dey [they] got goin' for 'em. And I think they[‘ve] got the new one that— oh, the Georgia boy, had a big song — he was a big star for a while and kind of dwindled out, but he took over de [the] TNN broadcast from there. I think they got one down in Florida now, too. Of course, Florida, there was good fishing territory to put on a fishing show. And he got a former boy with — he used to be on the Grand Ole Opry — but anyhow, I was happy to see 'im [him] — he got in real estate down there and made a little bundle for himself, and then when this job came up, he took it and would take all these stars fishin' [fishing] And another one was Kenny Price, the big fat guy from Union, Kentucky — he passed away — - he used to take the bus and go out on tour all the time.

TNN doesn't do much on the Grand Ole Opry. I don't know why. Why burn it out? They want people to come to the Grand Ole Opry and they give 'em just a little bit of it on television. A teaser! But they do a lot of variety things — they have cooking shows, talk shows — just like everything else. Racetrack. I'm surprised they haven't taken advantage of that Dueling Grounds Race Track [Racetrack] at Franklin, Kentucky—have horse races because they voted it out in Tennessee. Mr. House and his governor friend were really disgusted.

I think the Nashville Network is having a very big influence on Country music. It's a very good — very good — influence. It's opened the doors for people that otherwise wouldn't have a chance. You go to every little town — I don't care whether it's Smithville or Bohunk or Fisherville — there's somebody therewhthat [there that] wants to get on the Grand Ole Opry. And their only way to do it is get on the TNN network first. Mark Stewart (??) got that break. Marty Brown got that break —I don't know what he's gonna do now with Wal-Mart being dead — Wal-Mart had hired him for to play all the stores. He's from Western Kentucky. And Dwight Yoakum (sp??) — he got a hell of a break on TNN. They do have a lot of opportunities for young, up-and-comirg Country stars to perform on TNN. They have a program called "You Can Be a Star" — is one of 'em. And den [then] Bill Anderson has another one. There's about 5 or 6 opportunity-type shows — otherwise the kids wouldn't have it.

I think the quality of Country music is better than it used to be, because of TNN partly. You got better technology, better equipment. Dey [They] allow electric instruments now. Dey [They] allow any kind of electric instrument — pianos and electric guitars— but dey [they] didn't used to years ago. But I think Country music has lot [lost] the traditional Country sound. There is no more tradition. Ricky Skaggs is the closest to bein' traditional of any kid up dere [there].

By traditional, I mean, in the words of Solemn Old Judge, who was a very successful man in keeping the rain on everybody in his day, he says, “keep it close to the ground. Keep it simple, so everybody understands it.” And he says, — like he told me — he says, “when I tried somepin [something] different, there's always,” — he says, “you got a good answer everytime [every time] I correct you on somepin [something],” he said, but it's true — you usually got a good answer. “But all I can say for you, Pee Wee, you're 15 years ahead of your time, [chuckles]” Well, what are you gonna say! He was tryin' to do it the old-fashioned way — I couldn't — I couldn't do it -— that's not the way I was raised. That's what I wanted to be — I'd just be another musician or a fiddle player or

accordion player— in fact, he didn't know what an accordion was — he didn't care. He didn't really approve of the accordion for Country 'cause Country performers in Tennessee didn't have accordions.

But [as] I said, The Westerners everywhere — when you go out West, everybody had an accordion, and they'd go around the campfires and sing — had a fiddle and a guitar. And I said, “the accordion was the main instrument at that time.” Thank God for Gene Autry!

So there have been changes in Country music. You[‘ve] got to change with the times. I had to change with the times when I — every territory-you'd go into has got their own type of music, regardless of — right here in Louisville — Germantown! They don’t [know] nothin’ [anything] about Bluegrass, but you play a German waltz or somepin [something] — "Hi-li, hi-lo, hi li, hi-lo" [he sings] — that's German. But now you do the same thing in Nebraska or Iowa or Minnesota — North Dakota, South Dakota — you change with 'em — you gotta come to their level. You're there to please the people — they bought the tickets. If you want to play for your amazement, hell, you wouldn't have a job. And I now understand what the judge was tryin' to tell me. And the funniest thing was when I turned my time in and Mr. Craig says, “well, kid, all I can say [is] you go up to Louisville and try that television.” He says, “it's a passing fancy — it'll never last.” I said, “I know — XXK Mr. Craig, I heard de [the] story — you'll never have your people on television.” If a guy had a hit record, he couldn't appear on television with anybody — in Nashville. So, they wouldn't bring any Nashville ideas — television ideas — in it then. So, then I came up here and thank God for that!

I came to Louisville mainly to be on television, because [as] I said, we made a movie with Gene Autry — and Mr. Autry's a guy who still makes movies and I think the movies are good fer [for] the type of music — we're entertaining, we're visual, we're danceable and we're good songwriters and some of us are good bidnessmen [businessmen] — and that's what I want. And I couldn't have done that in Nashville, not then. But I could do it there now. Things have opened up.

As a matter of fact, they're gettin' paid and we didn't. Somebody knew somepin [something] [he chuckles]. The union — the union was the biggest step on that, because if you did a show and they had a sponsor and that sponsor- was charged a fee for broadcasting, [they] pay the artist who appears on that show.

I shout the Nashville Network's praises everywhere we go. I do like it. In Feb., '86, I have [had] a big celebration. I was 72 years old. Whole family. Snowstorm. I think it was a family reunion of some sort as a celebration of my birthday. We had 6 inches total of snow — that was here in Louisville. I remember it — had two snowstorms — the 15th and the 16th. That was during my family gathering.

And here's April — Roy Acuff, TNN-TV, Nashville — and I left for Florida right from there. And leavin' for Florida, then (??) business. And then I appeared with Lenny Meade down there and Epcot deal. Oh, I went to Epcot. I watched dose [those] entertainers down there and bumped into an accordion player that I just admired so great — he's a German guy from either Wisconsin, or Minnesota — but anyhow, he could keep that audience goin' all during lunch time — man, they stayed on that stage for an hour. That was at Epcot, in one of dem [those] dinner clubs. But it was daytime — you don't have to dress formal. Typical Disneyland [Disney World].

As far as well-known accordion players go today, there's nobody else that popular —- in his area or where he's at — like my brother — he's in the Concertina Hall of Fame 'cause he is exception[al] — he's different. And accordion players [are] the same way in different parts of the United States. But they're few and far between. Texas don't go for accordions. There are other accordion players better known than me. Well, you[‘ve] got Art Van Damme was one of the greatest. Pietro Daro (??) — he's dead now — but he was an innovator from Italy and came to America and made Italian polkas famous. He's not known to the average person, but they're the ones with the books out. Another popular one is Lawrence Welk — and Myron Floren — Welk's accordionist. Floren is about the biggest as far as accordion players go. That's the first name that would come to me if I was ....

Some people might think of me when they think of accordionists but as I say, I was an entertainer and I would change the moods and tempos wherever we went. And I did that by experience and all that. Just like that Wanda Shock (??) saying, “you're a classic entertainer, because you're not only an entertainer, you're a band leader, you're a songwriter, you're a movie star” — to go through all that whole junk. He said, “I'd put you with a capital "C" — Classic.” I said, “but I don't care for classical music.” He said, “I don't mean it that way. [chuckles”] I mean I like certain stuff —I mean you know, I enjoy listenin' to — I[‘ve] got some classical records that I play once in a while. But he meant that I was a classic because I could do everything. I could do it all.

In Louisville, I really made the accordion a popular instrument. Well, we got one — Artie Days (??) — one of the finest accordion players here in the city. Before him was — oh, the guy I took a couple of lessons from — he's like I am —he's old and ancient now — he can't play no more [anymore]. I don't practice at all anymore.

Just the time to do my show [chuckles] — my three songs or four songs and that's it. In May '86, Philip Morris Show with Mickey Gilley and Exiles. Oh, boy, they were a good group. There's the case [where] the leader got too big for his britches and he quit and then the songwriter quit and he's writin' [writing] songs and no longer a musician. And June — two days show in Detroit — oh, at that beautiful Cathedral Auditorium--Masonic Auditorium. That's a beautiful — oh, my God — and large. Meet (??) — oh,that's the Masonic Temple — big crowd, yeah.

And August, "Tennessee Waltz" for (??) Family Show, TNN. And Music Valley Association Show for Mr. Hobbs. Farmers' Hall of Fame up here in Ohio, when they hired us, because we're Hall of Fame people, I guess. And then in '87. January. Country Music Foundation meeting. Miami (??) Hotel. Oh, that was a beautiful hotel. Five days we stayed there. And the election of new officers. And was I elected in 1987 — I don't remember. Yeah, I think it was when I was 78. In March, NSAI [Nashville Songwriters Association International] award — songwriters' award. And then the St. Patrick's Parade, with Bob Ryan. And then Storer TV — oh, I did a legendary thing for him at cable. April TNN, popular (??) reunion. Third quarter — 30th — the1 Philip Morris Show. Eddie Rabbitt (??) with Nitty Gritty Dirt Band —(??)here — Lane Brown (??) — that's my little great-grandson —- he was born in '87. Fly to Wichita — oh, that's the Charlie Dniels Golf Tournament — three days — boy, that was a rousin' [rousing] time. And I played in the tournament. It was a fundraiser for the hospital. Dis [This] is a Hobbs' association — did a show down in Music Valley.

In '88, Mr. Frank was inducted in the Hallof Fame [Hall of Fame]. I was workin' on a project and I didn't take too much time — I was tryin' to put my stuff together —in workin' order —- and that was one of the big projects —- I drove down there many times — to get Mr. Frank in the Hall of Fame. I took stuff down there, too, for the exhibit and literature.

There's got to be a lot of politicking to get people in the Hall of Fame. I mean, I don’t say you buy your way through, but they[‘ve] got to be well-versed on why a man is — Don Davis is in the Hallof [Hall of] Fame now, too, as a steel-guitar player. But they associate Don as bein' one of my guitarists — steeV guitar players. Otherwise, he wouldn't--.

For the Academy Awards in Hollywood, politicking goes on all the time — to get nominated and then to get elected. And Pulaski — that's some celebration — big band, big crowd. Oh, Pulaski, Virginia.

And I was so surprised because they named the town after a Polish general. There's a Pulaski, Tennessee, too. My drummer lives in Pulaski, Virginia now — my former drummer — and he went to the committee, says, “you can get Pee Wee”. Said,” I'll get" 'im [him] for ya [you].”

So, I- went. And then the Florida trip — business affairs--oh, there's [the] new manager at Tampa, Florida, and I associated my business with pleasure. That was it.

And then '89. St. Patrick's Parade and mayor and Bob Ryan. We talked with Mayor Abramson that night. Nashville, CMA [Country Music Awards] nomination meeting, and BMI [Broadcast Music Incorporated] meeting. Opryland music regarding the news on all our songs comin' along (??).

All of my songs are under copyright now. You can hold the copyright on a song for a lifetime now. And after death, 50 years. So, my songs will be in my family's possession for a long time.

Wayne Newton -— that's Owensboro. That's where he pulled a joke about.... November (??) Hall of Fame package. September Buffalo, New York— that's where we met my friend — Ramblin' Lou — and all the apples — that's a beautiful place, too. Successful date. October Opry meeting in Nashville. Oh, he came down dere [there] for the baseball players and managers and so Lydia and Jackie got together, and Gene and I got together. We stayed at the hotel at Opryland. And he says, “God damn, kid, how do you look so good?” He says, “by God, kid, what the hell — big hotel like this — they ought to give you roller skates to go back and forth to the restaurants!” [chuckles]

And I says, “Why don't you order in your room?” He said, “aw, you get so sick of this

damn room,” — even Jackie said she's tired of this room. Course, Gene was occupied with the baseball meetings. That was the Opryland Hotel.

Autry has not had any face lifts. There's somethin’ that they're doin' to him — especially his pictures — they're doctorin' [doctoring] the pictures up a little. And I didn't think he'd subject himself to a facelift, but maybe Jackie's talked 'im [him] into it now — I don't know. Jackie is his new wife. She's around 50 now. Ina died and he was married to her for 49 and a half years. And then six more months they would have been married 50 years. And she passed away. He was never divorced — he had two wives — Ina and now Jackie. And she was the president of his bank and they used to have lunches together so they got to be pretty well acquainted. And all of us were happy for him

because rather than bein' a Vegas atmosphere with those young girls out tere [there]and let 'em catch 'im on the rebound — but he was smart. And he married the president of his bank [chuckles]. A smart business move, I guess, but you[‘ve] got to tell everybody--.

Married the president of his bank but it was a woman [chuckles]. He had no children. At first, it was by choice — wait for a coupleof [couple of] years until I can get established and then I'll do it — but then, after that, said it wouldn't have done no [any] good because they removed one of his things down there — testicles. So, it was his problem not his wife's.

Well, he had a brother and two sisters that gave him some — a lot of flak and static — but he weathered all that. And his dad stuck by 'im [him] all the time. He treated his dad real wel/ — had 'im outtere [him out here] runnin' his ranch for 'im [him]. He had problems with his brother and sisters after he had grown up. He didn't have the brother-sister feeling [that] exists between — like we do with ours. And I make sure that— I'm a Godfather — I go after that — then, like when we get home, I call all of 'em equally — every one of 'em — I call 'em right away and tell 'em, “Mom and Dad are home, and we look forward to seein' you this week sometime or if you find time next week or [the] week after we're not doin' nothin' [anything] — come over and have a drink and somepin [something] to eat.”

I try to keep my family together. Talking to each other. And I gotta keep 'em together — that's why I formed the corporation! [chuckles] Pee Wee King Enterprises, Incorporated. That's a family corporation. And that controls all my business interests. No matter what I do, they — all that comes to the corporation. I own 52% of the corporation, and four kids — 12% each. So, each one has a share in the corporation.

The corporation controls all the music, all my personal appearances — any income

I get whether it's endorsements or anything like that — it all goes into the pot — right there. And then at the end of the year, the bookkeeper gives us a statement —and they get their share and I get mine. I'm paid a salary by the corporation. A small one. But everything goes into the corporation. So that's one way of keeping the family together — not only that, I also remember many times goin' to a funeral and before the mother or father was [were] even buried, they got the kids arguin' about who gets the fur coat, who gets the automobile, who gets the house, and that. And that used to bug me. And some of the real good friends I had broke up their families because of that.

I keep that from happening in my family because dey're [they’re] all equal. I don't show no partiality to any of 'em. I have a will and it's all taken care of. E. Florence's (??) lawyer has got the — he made out the will. So that everything I own, including my personal possessions, will go to the children. They see what they're going to get — this is it. If one wants this piece and another one wants it too, then they fight it out by themselves [chuckles]. Gene is the only that wants that juke box downstairs. He said, “Dad, I don't care 'bout nothin' [about anything] else 'cause we got pianos, we[‘ve] got organs, we[‘ve] got everything you want. But they don't want - this they don't want either— it's not ours — it (??) belongs to my son-in-law — his sister got the organ from her dad -— he passed away — Al Walchter (??). Just before dat [that], we moved it in here.

The juke box is mine. Well, we kidded about it. But he said, “the way it is now— what shape it is [in] — I don't think I'd want it.” It [would] cost me more to... it will play 78s. It will play as far as I know. The boys in the band bought the juke box for me years and years ago from Tom Sherfick (??), juke box operator up in French Lick, Indiana. He had 3,000 juke boxes. He had a corporation like — it wouldn't quit. He liked (??) franchises before franchises had became [become] popular. He said,” I will furnish you the records and you run the business for me,” and different parts of the territory — and his daughter was so smart she wanted to get so close to the bidness [business], so she went to

Evansville, and this put-a-nickel-in-the-jukebox and it says, “whatdo [what do] you want to hear?”

And then you tell 'em the name of it. Well, that's the way it worked. She had like a wireless to the jukebox — business like — where she could pick out the records and they'd play it in Evansville and then hear it on the jukebox like a radio. She started dat [that]; then it got too cumbersome; she got married; she said, “the hell with it.”

Den [Then] Tom Sherfick had another tragedy after dat [that], after his daughter left home, why his son went fishing in the White River up — right out of French Lick — and slipped off the bank and I guess the cold water hit him like a brick or a ton of bricks. As soon as he hit the water, he died. The water was ice cold. Wintertime. It shocked his system so much. Heart failure.

It was nice of the band to give me the jukebox. See, we had — the band I kept 'em under control by startin' the Golden West Cowboys Band Fund. And they took money out of their check — they'd give us $2, $3 a week — and then they'd have money at the end of the week. And the parties were here. A couple of the boys got married in this house. And we [were] just like a family gathering. And we danced together.

I guess I've always been a pretty good manager. You've got to be to keep it all together — family, band. We still had five divorces. You can't be with them all the time — keep[ing] 'em together 17 years is pretty damn tough. So many people in the entertainment business go through so many marriages. They aren't stable. I tell ya [you], the easiest way I can answer thatis [that is] the family ties make a big difference. A respect for your family, respect for your wife and respect for your image and everything else. That makes a big difference, I think.

My case may be unusual. I'm surprised Lee Greenwood got married. He married a Tennessee beauty queen — last year's beauty contest winner — Miss Tennessee. I was shocked when I read that, because he and his wife — since he worked at Vegas as a dealer, and she was a dancer — and that's where he learned his show business from. And I thought their marriage was [on a] solid foundation, but I never dreamed he'd separate from her.

The marriages of entertainment people are often so unstable because, well, [for] one thing, if the guy don't [doesn’t] make it, then he's lost. And if he does make it, he's gonna be lost anyhow. So [chuckles] we look at it that way, 'cause then the wives say, “Well, I stay home all the time and you're gone all the time. What have we got to do this for?” And then the successful one is sometimes the woman, and the roles are reversed. It happens — like Loretta Lynn. With Dolly it did — she was married. And Reba McEntire married her manager. And this one girl married her recording director.

People in show business change partners often. First of all, I think show bidness [business] is glamor to them. They don't make it a business. They[‘ve] got to have a bookin' agent. They[‘ve] got to have an investment counselor. And they[‘ve] got to have a hairdresser. They[‘ve] got to have — it's like a little puppet dancin' — pull[ing] [the] strings and it dances/— 'cause they have no control over themselves — I think-I don't know. And they don't have any sense of who they are — their self. And success to them overwhelms them, I guess.

They make it so big that you — well, look at Hank Williams, Jr. Hank Williams Jr. is a hell of a big man and still he's been married three times already. And of course, his father was unstable to a degree, but he still had — up until his dying day he was with Audrey — he stayed through with her — and then finally he got — oh, what's his — Johnny Horton's Pat (??) got killed in the car wreck and then he married his wife— Johnny Horton's wife — they had a public wedding in New Orleans. Hank Williams Sr. married Johnny Horton's wife. This was after he divorced Audrey; they had a pretty tempestuous relationship, but he wouldn't have been successful without her. I don't see how. He was moody type. He was a loner to begin with — he didn't buddy-buddy with the boys and all that. But still, they loved 'im [him]. Those musicians — they tell stories about tem [them] and Hank. Hank took us here and Hank did dis [this] and dat. But today's bidness [business] has changed.

I think Hank loved Audrey very much. Oh, yeah, he'd a [would have] killed for her if he had to. All those songs had to be—have [been] written about their relationship. "Lovesick Blues," etc. We'd sit down and have a couple of beers at the hotel next door to [the] Opry between shows — he, I tell ya [you], he's a great guy. He was person smart [people smart] — with people — but as far as management or that, he didn't give a damn about business, I don't think. He knew that he had a bad hip and a bad back, and still, he wanted to make a Western movie. That was his last wish practically before he died. They were gettin' ready to make a Western picture with him, when he died. He signed a contract with the man who owned the record company — on one condition — he re-signed with 'im [him] if he got 'im [him] a movie contract to make a Western. And why he wanted it, I don't know.

Williams grew up when being a movie star was the most glamorous thing you could become. And Elvis wanted to make movies, too, later on. So maybe it wasn't so unusual. Elvis had the proper approach with Colonel Parker. Who should he get but one of the best dance instructors in Hollywood for dances in the movies — all [of] the big dancing stars in the pictures and everything. So, Elvis figured that this is good enough for dis [this] guy to make productions like that with dancing stars — he says, “he can make the colonel just sign pictures up with him.” And he did.

When Hank died, the script had not been written. It was supposed to be written. The movie was only in the embryo stage. They hadn’t yet gotten other actors together for the film. It was only in the embryo stage, see, to get him to sign that contract —the recording with MGM. He recorded on MGM Records, which was very big at that time. Well, he was one that fed it— like Eddy Arnold and Perry Como at RCA Victor. See, my career wasn't stagnant or stale because it had highlights up and down.

I would like to include the '91 Hall of Fame package as bein' a climax. Says, “did you ever think that you would be on a Hall of Fame package playin' around the country in your old age or retirement?” And I said, “you can't retire — not out of show business.” I have kept files and scrapbooks on my career. They're in my den/study in the basement of my home.