Oral History Interview with James Wilhelm

WILLIAM BERGE The following is an unrehearsed taped interview with Mr. James Wilhelm. The interview is conducted by William Berge for the Kentucky Oral History Commission, at Cumberland Falls State Park. The interview was conducted at Cumberland Falls State Park, on September 28, 2000, at Five PM. Mr. Wilhelm, let’s start off by you telling me your full name, and where you were born.

JAMES WILHELM: James Wilhelm, Sr.

BERGE: And where were you born?

WILHELM: Elizabethtown.

BERGE: E-town, Kentucky. What date were you born?

WILHELM: December 9, 1918.

BERGE: 1918. What was your father’s name?

WILHELM: Mark.

BERGE: And what is you mother’s maiden name?

WILHELM: Jennings.

BERGE: Jennings. What was her first name?

WILHELM: Annie.

BERGE: Where was she born? 1:00WILHELM: Isham, Kentucky BERGE: And where was your dad born?

WILHELM: Isham, Kentucky.

BERGE: Ok. And where were you born? At E-town.

WILHELM: E-town.

BERGE: Ok. Now, when you were born did—how many brothers and sisters did you have when you were born?

WILHELM: I had one sister when I was born.

BERGE: Ok. And how many later?

WILHELM: Four.

BERGE: Four.

WILHELM: Two boys borned and two girls.

BERGE: Now, where did you go to school?

WILHELM: Well, I went to J. B. Ackerson for grade school.

BERGE: Where was that in E Town?

WILHELM: Louisville, Kentucky.

BERGE: Oh, in Louisville.

WILHELM: And Western Junior High School, and Aaron’s Trade School.

BERGE: Oh, you went to Aaron’s?

WILHELM: Yeah.

BERGE: Where was the elementary school you went to in Louisville?

WILHELM: It was ( ).

BERGE: How old were you when you moved to Louisville, do you remember?

WILHELM: Oh, you mean 2:00when I went to school or what?

BERGE: No, when your family moved from E-town to Louisville.

WILHELM: Well, I was in about the second grade.

BERGE: Oh, you were, Ok. You were probably six or seven somewhere in there. All right, what year did you go in the three C’s?

WILHELM: Ahh, 1938.

BERGE: 1938. So you were twenty years old.

WILHELM: Yeah.

BERGE: Ok. Do you remember how you heard about it?

WILHELM: Well, everybody heard about it. It was in all the papers and … BERGE: Was it pretty well advertised?

WILHELM: Yeah. It was pretty well advertised. In 1937 flood—wait I said 1938, that’s wrong—‘cause it was right after the thirty-seven flood.

BERGE: So you went in, in thirty-seven.

WILHELM: Yeah.

BERGE: Ok.

WILHELM: And the 3:00CCC people from Fort Knox, came in to help the evacuation of the thirty-seven flood.

BERGE: So a lot more people realized, in what they did in Louisville, after the thirty-seven flood than they even did before, didn’t they?

WILHELM: Oh, yeah.

BERGE: Did you know anybody that was in the three C’s before the flood?

WILHELM: Not that I know of.

BERGE: How did you decide to go in?

WILHELM: Well, there were no jobs, no nothing, just out of school, in the middle of the depression.

BERGE: Who talked you into it?

WILHELM: Well, I don’t know that anybody talked me into it. I had to do something.

BERGE: Huh-huh. Did you go by yourself when you enlisted?

WILHELM: I went by myself.

BERGE: You did, huh-huh. And you didn’t have a friend go in with you or anything?

WILHELM: No.

BERGE: Most times when you talk to people there was somebody else they were involved with.

WILHELM: Well after you get in there, you might as well tell somebody you know that … BERGE: Yeah.

WILHELM: But as far as going 4:00in with somebody we didn’t.

BERGE: Can you remember where you enlisted in the three C’s?

WILHELM: ( ) Kentucky.

BERGE: Whereabouts in ( )?

WILHELM: In the post office.

BERGE: You just went in the post office and you could do it?

WILHELM: Well, the whole gang of them went in at the same time; they give you the examination and, ( ) you down to Fort Knox for a couple of days, and put you on a train, and shipped you to California.

BERGE: So you went in—you first went into Fort Knox, and had your physical and … WILHELM: Everybody in Kentucky went through Fort Knox, because that was a staging area.

BERGE: Ok. And how do you think they decided where people went? Did you ever find that out?

WILHELM: Well, ah, now of course Kentucky was part of the Fifth Corps. Ah, there were four Corps, the First, Second, Third, and Fourth Corps. 5:00The Third Corps, ah, or the Fourth Corps was the middle row of states. From Louisiana, north, up through Illinois and as far as Indiana I think.

BERGE: I wonder how they decided to send you to California?

WILHELM: Well, there was a camp that needed people. It was a Fifth Corps Camp that needed people.

BERGE: Ok. Where … WILHELM: People had been discharged from—after their enlistment was up and they had to replace them.

BERGE: Ok. So whereabouts in California did you go?

WILHELM: Oh, we went to Tulelake first, I was 6:00there maybe a month..

BERGE: What did you do when you were there, do you remember?

WILHELM: Dug ditches.

BERGE: For what? Do you remember?

WILHELM: Irrigation canals.

BERGE: Ok.

WILHELM: And I built fences along the canals to keep cattle and such out of them and people. Then they shipped us to—thirty of us to Orland, California to build a camp.

BERGE: Were most of the thirty of you from Louisville? Did you go from the Fort Knox … WILHELM: Oh, no, there were some of the old ones, and all the leaders or what would amount to a ( ) in the army of the leaders, had already been there, I don’t know how long, at least six months longer.

BERGE: Huh-huh.

WILHELM: And there was two—let’s see there was a leader and an assistant leader. A leader was considered the same rank as a sergeant, assistant leader was the same rank and a corporal.

BERGE: Ok. You—when you left Fort Knox to go to California did you already have your uniforms?

WILHELM: Yeah.

BERGE: Ok. 7:00WILHELM: Yeah, we wore them out to California.

BERGE: Ok. Now, do you remember, when you first went in, how much money you actually drew yourself on payday?

WILHELM: Yeah. We drew five dollars a month.

BERGE: Five.

WILHELM: Twenty-five dollars a month went home.

BERGE: Ok. So you got five.

WILHELM: I got five dollars a month.

BERGE: What did you do with that five?

WILHELM: Well, you bought your stamps, you bought your shaving cream, your razor blades, what have you, your sanitary needs.

BERGE: Did you … WILHELM: We had a candy bar now and then.

BERGE: Were you pretty happy with the living conditions there?

WILHELM: Well, you had to be you didn’t have any choice. Now, if you took a notion you didn’t want to stay and went over the hill, why you forfeited all the money you had earned, and 8:00they didn’t give you a ticket home. You got home the best way you could.

BERGE: When you went from Fort Knox to California, did you go by train?

WILHELM: Train. Troop train.

BERGE: Huh-huh. Was the whole train full of troops?

WILHELM: Yeah, the whole thing was full of troops. What it was, was a group of replacements for several camps in California. Some of them might have been from the Fourth Corps, some from the Fifth Corps, some of them maybe from the Third Corps.

BERGE: When you all were going out there who was in charge of you?

WILHELM: There was a lieutenant in charge of the train.

BERGE: An army lieutenant?

WILHELM: An army lieutenant. And army cooks, there was a sergeant, there was a sub-altern, to the lieutenant, 9:00and he was the one who kind of checked cars every day.

BERGE: Did they stop the train and let you all out on the way out there, or did you stay on the train the whole time?

WILHELM: We stayed on the train. We might a got off when they pulled into the station to service it ( ), and such but most of the time you was on the train.

BERGE: Huh-huh.

WILHELM: What they would do if you were—say you were ( ) from here to Chicago, then a train going west maybe ( ) would pick the train up—you never got off the train and never re-boarded the train; they just put one of the engines … BERGE: Yeah, you never got out of your car.

WILHELM: They just put another engine ( ) on the train.

BERGE: What did you think of that country when you first got out there?

WILHELM: It looked pretty ( ).

BERGE: Yeah. Where you first were?

WILHELM: At Tulelake? Well, they already had the camp built, and they had barracks, just like you did in the army—head 10:00to foot. And your work was on irrigation canals so the farmers could have water, for their crops. Now you can have a ( ) here, you can have a canal here, ( ) here, but this water could not be used by this one right here, because he didn’t have a water line. Now you could buy land in California … BERGE: But you had to … WILHELM: But you had to buy water rights with it.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

WILHELM: If you didn’t buy water rights, you did without water. And what we was doing, was building canals to help irrigate the crops 11:00which ( ). ( ) the government gave them X amount of acreage, they had to stay on it and improve it, for X number of years BERGE: And you would build a canal through … WILHELM: And we would build a canal through there and—for the person who had the farm, or had the water rights, so they could use the water, otherwise they couldn’t.

BERGE: Seems strange that the government was building the … WILHELM: Well now, if you didn’t have irrigation in California, it would just be another desert.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah. Did –what kind of work when you went to build that new camp?

WILHELM: Well, we built the camp. We built the barracks we built—ah—we set the ( ), we built the Mess Hall. Built the whole camp.

BERGE: How many barracks? Do you remember?

WILHELM: Ah, 12:00four barracks for the enrollees, a barracks for the officers, a Day Room for the ( ). Ah—the—built the army office, ah, the irrigation office, the supply room, and there was another building, and then, ah, there was a latrine, which was the outhouse you might say.

BERGE: Ah, Mr. Wilhelm, when you were—how long did you stay in California?

WILHELM: Well, I stayed in there for two years.

BERGE: Huh-huh. You stayed your full two years in the CCC, and did you stay at the same camp the whole time then? The one you built?

WILHELM: Oh, the one we built. Yeah.

BERGE: Yeah. Ok. Did you get to know many people in town?

WILHELM: ( ) didn’t 13:00go overboard, but a lot of the people in town didn’t think a whole lot of us, because the, ah … BERGE: The girls?

WILHELM: The girls liked the uniforms better than they did the civilian clothes. (laughter).

BERGE: Yeah. That was always a problem between … WILHELM: Yeah, it was always a problem in a way, and some of the boys would corner one of the guys and work him over.

BERGE: Some of the boys in town did that, yeah.

WILHELM: And by the time they( ) the camp it would be over with.

BERGE: Yeah. What did they have for recreation at the camp?

WILHELM: Well, they had basket ball, they had a boxing instructor, they had a different types of games; 14:00you could play football, you could have relay races and such.

BERGE: Did you ever see any movies?

WILHELM: Sometimes. Once in a great while they would have a movie, but once in a while an actors troop would come through, and they would put on a show at the camp.

BERGE: Where were those acting troops from? Do you know?

WILHELM: From California someplace.

BERGE: You know the WPA did some of that.

WILHELM : Yeah, I know it.

BERGE: The—did you participate in any of the sporting events yourself?

WILHELM: Well, we played—we didn’t have any—huh—army guys played ( ), pick up a basket ball game, base ball game or such, anybody could play.

BERGE: Did you play?

WILHELM: Some. 15:00BERGE: Did you ever get to go home in those two years?

WILHELM: No.

BERGE: Did you write home much?

WILHELM: Well, once or twice a month.

BERGE: Did they--did anybody’s mother ever write to the commanding officer and say, “why doesn’t my son write home, or anything like that?” WILHELM: Not that I know of.

BERGE: I didn’t know if there was any of that going on.

WILHELM: I was in there about six, seven months, and came up for supply sergeant.

BERGE: Was that a good job?

WILHELM: Well, you got eleven dollars more a month.

BERGE: Well, that’s good.

WILHELM: You got thirty-six dollars a month, instead of the thirty and you got to keep the eleven.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

WILHELM: And I was Supply Sergeant till my discharge came.

BERGE: Was that a hard job?

WILHELM: Only when you had new recruits.

BERGE: Trying to dress them?

WILHELM: Issuing clothes and blankets, 16:00bedding … BERGE: Did you have a lot of guys—was it a big job trying to get the job—I mean uniforms like replaced, and did people come in with uniforms that needed replacing? Did you ever do that like … WILHELM: Well, you had to requisition them.

BERGE: If I had a un—let’s say I had a uniform that for some reason got torn or worn out or something like that would … WILHELM: Well, ah … BERGE: Could I get another one free?

WILHELM: It all depends on how it happened.

BERGE: Whether it was my fault or not.

WILHELM: If it happened in the line of duty, chances are you could get it replaced for nothing; but now, if it was a misdemeanor or something like that, you would likely be paying for it.

BERGE: Yeah. How much would it cost? Do you have any idea?

WILHELM: Oh, no, not off hand I don’t. Probably about twelve, thirteen dollars for a shirt and pants. 17:00BERGE: Yeah. I was wondering roughly.

WILHELM: Something like that.

BERGE: How about shoes? They didn’t last forever. How often would a person get new shoes?

WILHELM: Well, whenever they wore out, because they … BERGE: Was that your decision?

WILHELM: Now wait a minute. An officer would walk down a line and have you hold your foot up … BERGE: Oh, I see.

WILHELM: And look at the soles on them.

BERGE: I see.

WILHELM: And if he thought they had to be half-soled, why they would pick them up, and ship them to Sacramento Headquarters to the shoe repair, and they’d repair them and send them back to you.

BERGE: As Supply Sergeant, were you the one that had to send those?

WILHELM: Yeah.

BERGE: Then you didn’t have to decide whether the clothing needed to be replaced, the officer did that. Is that right?

WILHELM: That’s right.

BERGE: That sounds interesting. About the food?

WILHELM: Well, it all depends on the mess sergeant.

BERGE: Did you have good one out there?

WILHELM: Now your mess sergeant, 18:00ah controls your food. You had a officer that was the ( ) officer, and if he took a notion that he wanted to save ten bucks a month, why he would put ten bucks over in the box, and there’s ten dollars less to feed the troops on.

BERGE: I see.

WILHELM: Ah, of course, now on holidays, Thanksgiving and Christmas, you would have your turkey and all the dressings.

BERGE: If you wanted to stay longer that two years could you have?

WILHELM: Well the only way you could have was as a specialist.

BERGE: Like—for instance?

WILHELM: The officers made the—or, if the leaders of the work crews would make the decision whether 19:00they would like to have you or not.

BERGE: What kind of specialist would that be?

WILHELM: Well, you take the leader that was trained in the building in the irrigation canal. Ah, he might be the crew member who walked along the bank, and checked to see if you filled in the banks and didn’t have ripples and such where it would wash out.

BERGE: Yeah. When ah, when your two years were up, where did they discharge you from?

WILHELM: Ah well, at the camp or at ( ).

BERGE: They gave you a ride back?

WILHELM: Yeah. Providing you didn’t go over the hill.

BERGE: Ever.

WILHELM: Now if you went over the hill, you got a walking discharge. Now if you had committed some ( ), that ah, didn’t 20:00come up to snuff; or someone was discharged for ah, some reason that the officer decided they would give you a ( ) discharge, which was a seat on a train.

BERGE: What were some other states that you knew people from who were out at that camp?

WILHELM: They were all from Kentucky.

BERGE: All of them?

WILHELM: Ah, ninety-nine per cent. Some of them were from Ohio.

BERGE: Did any of those Kentucky boys, marry California girls?

WILHELM: Yeah. Matter of fact, ah, one fella that I still swap Christmas cards with, and another one, I just got a letter from his wife, you remember ( ) Spiegel?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Huh-huh.

WILHELM: Ah, I just got a letter from his wife, and they are not coming, because Hale had Alzheimer’s and she is afraid that he’ll get out and get lost. 21:00Said, because he does that here at home.

BERGE: Hum-hum. Yeah. That … WILHELM: I’ll let you read that letter when … UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Ok.

BERGE: That Alzheimer’s is a strange thing, isn’t it?

WILHELM: ( ).

UNIDENTIFED VOICE: Yeah.

WILHELM: I talked to Murphy this morning, and he told me he was coming in the morning and then in the afternoon he is going to get Arthur and Ronnie.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Ok.

WILHELM: Arthur ( ) was our ambulance driver.

BERGE: Out in California?

WILHELM: Yeah.

BERGE: How many of those California groups that you were with is active in this group here?

WILHELM: Oh, I don’t know off hand, only ones that I know of are ( ); we had as high as fifteen, but they are whittling down. I don’t know if I’ll be here. Ah, ( ), Arnold Smith, I don’t know if he is coming or not, he’s in Florida. 22:00UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: He is. He is going to be flying in Saturday night.

WILHELM: Oh, he is? And … UNIDENTIFIED: VOICE: ( ) in California?

WILHELM: And Heany ( ), ( ).

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: That would be good ( ).

WILHELM: I had my book laid out to bring with me, and I come on and forgot it. I’ve got an Annual from 1938.

BERGE: Oh, really?

WILHELM: It’s got people in it, pictures of work we done, and things we made and such as that. I had one of the fellas call me, oh about a week ago now, he was up in Pennsylvania somewhere and he got my name out of the Journal and I ( )?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Hum-hum.

WILHELM: And he called me, and wanted to come over to the house and he was at the house for a couple of hours. Showing what he done 23:00and such as that.

BERGE: When I was young, the CCC’s in Pennsylvania did an awful lot of work in the forests. We had a Gypsy Moth infestation in our pines up there, the CC’s, the three C’s people got strips of burlap, and I guess they soaked it in creosote ;and wrapped it around the trunk of all those trees and saved the forest really.

WILHELM: Ah, the, ah—one fella that I still trade Christmas cards with, he was a truck driver, and, well, one of the fellas there in Louisville he had a heart attack here, about three months ago, and he had double pneumonia 24:00and had to go back; and I talked to him, just about a week ago, and he was in the hospital again with, I don’t know what all. Has ( ) in one of his eyes, he’s in bad shape.

BERGE: When you got—when your two years were up and you came home, what did you do then?

WILHELM: I worked for an electrical company.

BERGE: In Louisville?

WILHELM: Yeah.

BERGE: How long did you work for them?

WILHELM: Till I had to go in the service.

BERGE: How long was that?

WILHELM: September 9, 1941.

BERGE: You were not too long, just a couple of years, I guess.

WILHELM: ( ). ( ).

BERGE: Yeah. Where did you go—where were you stationed in World War II?

WILHELM: World War II, I was at--we went from here to Fort Thomas, and from Fort Thomas we went to Camp Roberts California, and … BERGE: You went back to California again then.

WILHELM: That’s 25:00up near San Francisco. Ah, we took ( ) training in telephone communications; I finished training on Friday, Pearl Harbor was bombed on Monday, or Sunday, and I got out four years later. And we pioneered the west coast from the Mexican Border to Palo Alto California for a radar site. We put on, radar site for the biggest part of the war.

BERGE: Did you—you did electrical work did you in the service?

WILHELM: Yeah. They shipped us to ( ) for school, went to school, shipped us back to California, till discharged.

BERGE: Do you think that having been in the three C’s, helped you get that electrical job in Louisville?

WILHELM: Oh, Yeah. No, no.

BERGE: It didn’t. But it helped you get where you were in the army, didn’t it?

WILHELM: Yeah. 26:00BERGE: How did you get that job in Louisville when you came back was it ( ) for people?

WILHELM: Well, I knew some people that were working there, and they put in a good word for me, and they needed somebody.

BERGE: Huh-huh. After you came back from the service, after you got discharged, when was that do you remember?

WILHELM: December 15, 1945.

BERGE: Ok. Do you remember—what did you do then?

WILHELM: I went back to work for the electrical company.

BERGE: What was the name of the electrical company?

WILHELM: Roof Lighting.

BERGE: Roof Lighting. I’ve heard of that. Yeah.

WILHELM: And I stayed with them till I retired.

BERGE: Huh-huh. When did you retire?

WILHELM: About eighteen year ago I think.

BERGE: Huh-huh. How long have you been active in this group that comes down here?

WILHELM: Oh, I’ve went to the first one, and I’ve been to every one. 27:00BERGE: When was the first one?

WILHELM: Ah, … UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Forty-nine. I believe.

WILHELM: I don’t remember when the first one was.

UNIDENTIFED VOICE: I think it was 1949.

WILHELM: This is the twenty-first one isn’t it?

UNIDENTIFED VOICE: Twenty-second.

BERGE: When did I come down here and do those interviews …?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: 1990.

BERGE: …for Steve Pickertt, I figured about ten years ago.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Ten years, almost exactly.

BERGE: I didn’t interview you then did I?

WILHELM: No.

BERGE: I didn’t think I did.

WILHELM: No, the first sergeant of the company was here this year. Herschel Crone was here, and ( ). I saw him back in the spring, and he is awful weak I don’t know ( ) bring him or not. He said he was coming.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Did he go to California with you or did he get out before?

WILHELM: He was in California, he was our company clerk. 28:00BERGE: You know I—I—someplace I interviewed somebody who was in the three C’s, who was from California, ( ) he was sent to Kentucky to this camp.

WILHELM: ( ) there was nine Corps, ( ) was the Ninth corps, Kentucky was the Fifth Corps. Now, they swapped people back and forth, it was an education in some things.

BERGE: Did thy have any kind of education things in the camp?

WILHELM: Oh, yeah. They had an educational director. He had things set up in town in the schools, and after work you could go in there, and you could take, maybe a typing course. Maybe a 29:00course, of … BERGE: Hold on just a minute please.

END OF SIDE ONE TAPE ONE WILHELM BEGIN SIDE TWO TAPE ONE WILHELM BERGE: I just wanted to turn this over. The—what were we talking about when I turned this over? I can’t remember.

WILHELM: Talking about the schools.

BERGE: Oh, yes. Did you take any of those classes?

WILHELM: I took one. I took a little typing.

BERGE: Was it a good looking typing instructor? Is that the reason you took that class?

WILHELM: No, it was a man. And then, they had a school building there in camp, a library, ( ) self contained camp, had a barber shop; and the library of the educational director would help you with certain classes and stuff.

BERGE: Were there any—how many people were in a barrack? Have you any idea?

WILHELM: Around forty.

BERGE: Huh-huh. So there were about one hundred and sixty … WILHELM: One hundred sixty plus. People living in other buildings like company clerk, first sergeant, 30:00different trucks and things had a different area.

BERGE: Where they stayed where they worked. Like a cook.

WILHELM: No, the cooks had a building to themselves, more or less. Cause they would go to work at noon, and work through the evening meal, and through breakfast the following morning, and then the other crew would come on and make the lunch, supper and breakfast.

BERGE: Yeah, so they worked a day on and a day off. Yeah. You said the food was pretty good didn’t you?

WILHELM: Well, it was eatable. One company was real good, it all depended on the cook and if he knew how to fix it. 31:00BERGE: Yeah. Were there any kind of meals that you sort of identify and associate with the three C’s?

WILHELM: Well, your Sunday meal usually got a little better food. You got either baked ham, or baked chicken, or some special meal along with your vegetables, which could be most anything.

BERGE: Hum-hum. Were there ever any women working on the camp?

WILHELM: Not on our post, I understand that there was some women in certain capacity, if they were working at headquarters or something like that. But as far as working in a camp like we--I don’t know of any.

BERGE: You didn’t see any there. There was none in your camp.

WILHELM: No.

BERGE: What 32:00was the town like there?

WILHELM: It was a small town, and everything was built around the high school.

BERGE: Did you all go to the movies there?

WILHELM: They had a movie house, and they had a recreation trucks that would run to the lava beds. The Modoc Indian area and the lava beds and certain points of interest. Lava beds they had all these caves where ( ). They had one called ice cave, you walked down there, fall on your butt, ‘cause ice was in the bottom of it. You had another cave they called valentine cave ‘cause it had ( ) all the way around.

BERGE: That was quite an interesting area, that Modoc area then.

WILHELM: Yeah. The Modoc Indians were Captain Jack. 33:00BERGE: Yep. I read a book about him about a month ago.

WILHELM: Oh, he was … BERGE: He was one of the last … WILHELM: He was the Cochise of the Modoc Nation.

BERGE: Sure was.

WILHELM: And he was finally captured ( ), about eighteen hundred something.

BERGE: Yeah. He was tough.

WILHELM: He would drive these mountain goats into these caves, and then they would slaughter them, and they would have food for the winter.

BERGE: Huh-huh. Would you—did—how important do you think it was for a lot of these young people who went in the three C’s?

WILHELM: Well, if it hadn’t been for the CCC, there would have been a hell of a lot more crime on the streets … BERGE: Bums.

WILHELM: Bums or 34:00… BERGE: Hobos.

WILHELM: Well there was a lot of hobos, anyway, even the older men. They were riding the rails looking for work.

BERGE: A lot of children too. There have been a lot of studies about them.

WILHELM: Yeah, but if it hadn’t been for them, we would have been in worse shape today, we would have been in worse shape in World War II, because … BERGE: A lot of people were ready for the army, weren’t they?

WILHELM: Not only that, but they were all ready disciplined.

BERGE: They were ready for the army. Could you tell the difference—did it help you in the army?

WILHELM: ( ) discipline, then what you needed to know about the country, and the people in the army. Now you take the Ninth Corps area, the commanding general, I don’t know what his name was; but anyway, his wife 35:00was President of the Christian Temperance Union.

BERGE: How did—WCTU?

WILHELM: And the Ninth Corps area could not serve any alcoholic beverages after nine o’ clock.

BERGE: Because of her—the WCTU?

WILHELM: Yeah.

BERGE: Did you four guys, when you got out there in California, I guess it was hard to get any moon shine?

WILHELM: I don’t know about that. (laughs) BERGE: Unless you were making it. (laughs) WILHELM: Some of them were making it. And, but even in Louisville, they made it. Because when you smelt rubber burning early in the morning, you knew somebody was running off a batch.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah. Well I’ll tell you the three C’s--I have often heard people say that it helped the United States mobilize their army in a hurry, when the war came 36:00… WILHELM: Besides mobilizing the army, it helped because you were already disciplined, they had … BERGE: Basic training almost … WILHELM: Well they almost had a lot of basics as far a making your bed, as far as your barracks and everything. In other words, if you had a civilian shirt hanging on your rack there you had to cover it with something to cover the initials.

BERGE: Oh, I see.

WILHELM: You couldn’t have any civilian clothes showing.

BERGE: I didn’t know that. And so you would have to hang something … WILHELM: You’d have to hang—now if you had a shirt you would hang your blouse over it.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

WILHELM: Or you might hang a shirt over a shirt.

BERGE: Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you Mr. Wilhelm, I surely enjoyed talking with you. Do you have any questions Brent?

BRENT: You know those ditches did they use any heavy equipment or was it all by hand?

WILHELM: What did he say?

BERGE: The ditches.

BRENT: The irrigation ditches was it heavy equipment, or was it by hand?

WILHELM: Most of it pick and shovel.

BERGE: Sort of like the WPA in that sense?

WILHELM: Yeah. 37:00There was some heavy equipment now, like drag lines and such as that. There were small bull dozers. We only had one small dozer.

BERGE: I guess it was something when you dug one of those, and you finally saw water come in.

WILHELM: Well yeah. What it was, you would take a ground two foot wide, you would dig down two foot, you go right straight down two foot. Then you would slope the sides, and by the time you got through you had a six foot canal.

BERGE: Huh-huh.

WILHELM: Then of course, when water come through there you had to soak those banks with water. You fill up any ( ).

BERGE: Yeah. Sure.

BRENT: Could you tell that the farmers appreciated the work at the time? Did they come and watch you?

WILHELM: Well, very seldom.

BRENT: So you don’t really think they realized what you were doing? 38:00WILHELM: Some of them would, and some of them had fruit trees and such as that, and would bring fruit out to you. Especially figs, and I can’t stand figs. (laughs) BERGE: How far away from your camp did you go to dig these ditches?

WILHELM: Oh, it was probably ten, twelve miles.

BERGE: Yeah.

WILHELM: Now ah, … BERGE: Did you dig laterals too?

WILHELM: No.

BERGE: You just dug the main ditch.

WILHELM: Main ditch.

BERGE: ( ).

WILHELM: ( ) land would be right along this, and he would have to have water rights to use it. Then he would have gates that he could ( ) ( ).

BERGE: But he was responsible for putting the laterals in?

WILHELM: Yeah.

BERGE: Where did the water come from?

WILHELM: The water came from the mountains; and some of it came from the Colorado River, and 39:00the Sacramento River, the Snake River.

BERGE: Did you ever get to go to any of the cities in California when you were there?

WILHELM: Well, no, not really.

BERGE: How many guys would go over the hill?

WILHELM: I know of three of them that went over.

BERGE: Did you know that they were going to do it?

WILHELM: I didn’t know it, no.

BERGE: They didn’t tell anybody, they just … WILHELM: Well, usually they don’t. Now, we had a … BERGE: Yeah, but … WILHELM: …supply sergeant when we moved from Tulelake to ( ). The supply sergeant had three stripes, well when we went to Orland, he only had two so he took a cut from forty-five dollars a month to thirty-six dollars. He went over the hill.

BERGE: That’s when you got his job?

WILHELM: That’s when I got the job.

BERGE: (laughs) WILHELM: Well I’d had appendicitis, and was operated on in ( ) General Hospital in Sacramento. And I was back, and I was assistant 40:00to the first aid man at the time.

BERGE: Did they have sick call every day just like in the army?

WILHELM: Yeah, they had sick call they had a contract doctor. Had … BERGE: Is that how they found out you had appendicitis?

WILHELM: No—yeah, he is the one that diagnosed it. But there was an army captain that ( ). And sent me to the hospital.

BERGE: How long did you stay in that hospital, do you remember?

WILHELM: Oh, four or five days. Maybe a week. I probably would have stayed longer, but the commanding officer had to come into Sacramento for something, and he had a truck in there, so I got a hold of that ( ) had to go back to camp. But I was on light duty and assistant to the first aid man. And eventually 41:00I lucked into that other job.

BERGE: Well, I’ll tell you Mr. Wilhelm, I enjoyed listening to you … WILHELM: Now, a, you might want to turn that off.

BERGE: Yeah, just a minute, I want to thank you for this interview. I’ll turn it off now.

WILHELM: Yeah, turn it off..

END OF SIDE TWO TAPE ONE END OF INTERVIEW.