Oral History Interview with Robert E. Kellen

WILLIAM BERGE: The following is an unrehearsed tape interview with Mr. Robert E. Kellen, of Sturgis, Kentucky. The interview is conducted by William Berge, for the Kentucky Oral History Commission, at Cumberland Falls State Park, on October 7, 1990, at approximately Ten AM. Mr. Kellen, if you don’t mind doing like Mr. Brown did, tell me you full name, and where you were born and when.

ROBERT KELLEN: Robert Earl Kellen, I was born in Caseyville, Kentucky, January 11, 1916.

BERGE: What was your father’s name?

KELLEN: His name was Add Y. Kellen.

BERGE: Spell that.

KELLEN: A d d and Y, I believe that was for Young, best as I can find out.

BERGE: Huh-huh. Where was he from?

KELLEN: Smith Mills, Kentucky.

BERGE: What was your mother’s name? 1:00KELLEN: Mary Reddick.

BERGE: Spell that.

KELLEN: R-e-d-d-i-c-k. Now they have shortened that, what’s left of them to Redick BERGE: And where is she from?

KELLEN: Norris City, Illinois.

BERGE: Ok. What did you father do?

KELLEN: He was a coal miner.

BERGE: Huh-huh. So you ( ) down there.

KELLEN: That was back in the time when, you know, maybe three or four miles of--they called a run off, they didn’t pay you, they sent you back. That was back in the days when they actually said that you went in debt all—paid off in winter what you went in debt all summer. That was a fact, you always owed the company.

BERGE: What did you—where did you go to school?

KELLEN: I went to school four years in Colin, Kentucky, went to fifth, the sixth, and the next through the eighth grade in Clay, Kentucky. Came back to Colin, they had a high school there and went three years , went to Morganfield and graduated in 1934.

BERGE: Oh, so you graduated too.

KELLEN: Right.

BERGE: There was a world of people, about 2:00your age that quit school, as soon as they could, around tenth grade KELLEN: I walked three miles each way for two solid years every day, from Caseville to Colin to get two years of high school. One year I managed a ride, I had the money, and the car—one year I didn’t have the money--the car passed me every day with two or three in it.

BERGE: The same people in it. (laughs) KELLEN: Yeah, the same people. So then I moved to Morganfield, and I could wait till the bell started to ring. And wait on my front porch and to school in time—sure was nice. Like being in heaven.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah. So you finished in thirty-four?

KELLEN: Yes, sir.

BERGE: So what did you do then?

KELLEN: Well, I didn’t do anything until thirty-five. All the talk was the three C’s, I was living in Morganfield, the County seat then. Well, that was all the talk you know, the three C’s and I went up and … BERGE: To get one of those beautiful uniforms?

KELLEN: Yes, to get that thirty dollars a month. So I went up and 3:00signed up at the County Court House, or somewhere around there, and I had a brother that wanted to go. So, brothers wasn’t supposed to go at the same time—wasn’t even supposed to go. So we went up, and he told him, he said, “go with him. Just go on, go on up there and get examined.” So we both took off the same day, and went to Henderson, and they took us up, and both examined and they sent us both to Paducah.

BERGE: Hum.

KELLEN: So we stayed—there was a big camp there.

BERGE: Where was the ( ) in Paducah?

KELLEN: Well, thirty-seven , but in nineteen … BERGE: You weren’t down there then were you?

KELLEN: No, but I will tell you what … BROWN: No, we were Dawson Spring … KELLEN: But in thirty-six, they was having high water, ‘cause I worked down on the river and sand bagged in thirty-six. And I know it is true because they sent—I drank coffee which I had never done before. And they sent me to Fort Knox back in the back of an old carryall, and I had a guy with me that had—I broke out solid is what happened—and the doctor said you have the measles. They sent me to Fort Knox, because I had been in six months and I was going to get out anyway. 4:00BERGE: Huh-hum.

KELLEN: And they sent me up there, and another guy with a bad case of athletes feet, to fort Knox to the hospital. So I know we had high water. In fact, and also that winter, the river froze over, ah, the winter of thirty-five, thirty-six. The river froze over and they didn’t work us. They put us in uniforms, overcoat and marched us every morning.

BERGE: Huh.

KELLEN: That is all we did, didn’t work; see we were soil conservation, and they kept us in the barracks.

BERGE: So you and your brother went up to Paducah? And tell me what did you think about it when you got there?

KELLEN: Well, sir, see I am a country boy, and I had never been away from home. And we went in there to the city dump, to clean up the city dump. They had tents. They all come in there—had 5:00the cadre—got there at dark. And they lined—they started you up in a line, they throwed the blankets at you, they throwed the pillow at you , they throwed the mattress at you and said, “now go down there and find you a bed.” And you went in a dark tent, you don’t know what is in there, and found you a bed. Well, I had never done anything like that so I didn’t know what to think. So I didn’t think too much of it at the time, and they got up the next morning you know, in daylight, and you could see ( ). And I know when I got down there I was short two blankets, and of course, I didn’t know then, what I know now about the army. Well, I thought the thing to do was to go back and tell them about it, I got to have blankets. So I went back up there and evidently whoever … BERGE: (laughs) If you had been in the army now, you would have known to steal two blankets.

KELLEN: (laughs) That’s right. So I went up there and you know what they did they found nearly at the bottom of the blankets they found two over and they picked me up two.

BERGE: You were lucky.

KELLEN: Oh, yeah. I found out later I was, I didn’t know how lucky.

BERGE: Yeah. That wouldn’t happen many times.

KELLEN: So what we had to proceed to do was to fill shoreline. 6:00BERGE: Let me ask both of you this, ‘cause I am not too clear on it. Who made the decisions to what they would—the CCC men to do--I mean, like they were used for all kinds of emergencies, like I say, if there was a fire or something, did the local commander make that decision, or who made that?

BROWN: No, the way they established that, for most of our camps was—like you had a forest fire, like in this area here—that community, their Mayor, or their Judges … BERGE: Some local … BROWN: Would ask the other area, and ( ) I think the name was Hawkins or Hingston or something like that.

BERGE: That is what you all did, you all did like where there was erosion and stuff? 7:00KELLEN: Where there was erosion and … BERGE: Well, who would decide on whose farm they would do that work?

KELLEN: Well, as far as I know they made … BERGE: The local County Judge or… KELLEN: Local county extension outfit. They would get names of people who needed it and … BERGE: Ok. Ok. And they would just take you out to the farm … KELLEN: They would take us out in trucks, and we had rock pits, we dug roads, built the roads.

BERGE: Would the local farmer be there that owned that land and tell you where to do it or?

KELLEN: I don’t remember ever seeing one. Well see, I went in, and the first thing I did--of course I was new--everybody worked, and I worked digging rock on the rock pile. But that--then I saw how things were going and I--so I was getting ( ). So it so happened that the first aid boys was from Ohio. He was part of the cadre, his daddy was sick and he was home nearly all the time, so I got the first aid—got to run the first aid room. The only draw back was that I never did get the gravy, I stayed there and done the work but he drew the rating, and he would be gone. But I did that till about a month before I decided to leave. So I … BERGE: How long did you stay there?

KELLEN: I only stayed eight months. But my brother stayed on 8:00with it, I mean he stayed on and he became what you call a sub-altern and then ( ) BROWN: He went to Fort Thomas.

KELLEN: He run a camp after that, and then he had a camp of his own. Like he said you weren’t military you … BROWN: Military… KELLEN: Up toward Ashland, that college up there.

BERGE: Morehead?

KELLEN: Morehead, that is the camp he went to first, I only stayed eight months. Well, you know KP was on barracks rotation. I made sure that I got the barracks that ( ) went out in the field, so I never was on KP. Then I went out in the field and we picked up hickory nuts, pecans, and stuff like that, and planted them in the cold weather. It was the winter time, and that was my next job. And of course, while I was in there I had a pretty good deal. The cooks, two of the cooks was from my home town, and I had the first aid room, and I had two sick places and I would have them send down three meals.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

KELLEN: (laughter) 9:00Got my own meal, and then I slept in the first aid room and kept the fire—had to keep a fire in the winter time—little pot bellied stove. These boys would go to town … BERGE: How often did the doctor come in?

KELLEN: Oh, we had a doctor at the camp. We had a doctor at the camp and he would come in every day. He would have sick call every morning.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

KELLEN: Sick call every morning.

BERGE: Where did he live?

KELLEN: He lived right there.

BERGE: At the camp?

KELLEN: Yeah.

BROWN: They had Reserve Officers come in, but later on they did a contract, a local contract doctor. They pulled sick call, local calls, but this way they were done.

BERGE: Did you have a doctor up here?

KELLEN: We had a doctor here, his name was Wyman. I think he was from somewhere in these mountain towns. He handled these three camps. 10:00BERGE: In Paducah, did that doctor have just one camp?

KELLEN: Yes, he stayed there, this doctor stayed there. We had two or three different doctors at different times. I know we had a new doctor come in a Major, and he come in—they said you got a new doctor. So he came in one night, and he slipped in there, and we was having a musical hoe-down in the first aid.

BERGE: In the first aid?

KELLEN: And we had ashes all over the floor, and he come in, and boy he jumped us, and I had no idea who he was. The next morning I had orders to stand reveille every morning–I hadn’t been having to do that—and he said, “you will stand reveille.” I had been wearing government pajamas. I wasn’t used to standing reveille and ( ), I jumped in my government pajamas, and went out and stood in the line. (laughs). He confined me for a month. Confined me for a month for wearing government pajamas.

BERGE: They used to fine guys didn’t they?

BROWN: Yeah, it was up to the CO, most times. If you had a good first sergeant, 11:00if he was really good, the CO’s and what not would work with him, and let him put you on KP or detail. Very seldom those officers had to get in. Now they straightened you out if you got out of line, you had some good officers who could handle it, and you had some that wasn’t worth—being officers. But talking back there—back there, when we was talking about 509, we was taking these cadres; out and what they was trying to do in 509 in the valley down there was to clear it out.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

BROWN: There was a veteran camp from World War I, over at Madisonville had a cadre up here. And they had already arrived, they ( ) eleven, and we always sent twenty-three, 12:00either twenty-one or twenty-three, and they brought eleven of the old veterans. Well, when we got back from Goose Rock, and got back in here, well they had taken the rest of 509 and changed it to an F camp and taken the balance over to Jellico Creek. To clear them out so this vet camp could come in here. They wanted to come up here and they just about had their way, anyhow. So they found out that it was eighteen miles, or twenty-one miles out from Corbin they would not come. They never did get over sixty or seventy or just a few out here. So immediately they ( ) all come in, and a few other things, and boy, they demanded a junior company, and the company number that they had assigned to this outfit was 1578, SP 1, they picked up the 509 ( ), and so they established a junior camp here.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

BROWN: And after it became 1578 in the old 509 barracks down there. And then they took a reserve officer, his name was Danion, he was here this time. And he was the CO, they made him the CO down there. 13:00BERGE: Hum-hum.

BROWN: And I believe Mr. Wentworth, who was a Corbin state highway man, he became the Superintendent, the best I remember. And, like I say, it stayed there until they pretty near finished up what needed to be done, and they disbanded them. That was what happened to the Park Service.

BERGE: What did you do after you—you know I always understood that you sign up for six months at a time.

KELLEN: Well, I came in on the end of six months, with two months, and then reassigned for six months.

BERGE: Ok.

KELLEN: I’ll tell you this much, but it was interesting while I was in the first aid room, I had one case of yellow jaundice, and one case of appendicitis, and of course we had to maintain a full ( ) with all the going things.

BERGE: Yeah.

KELLEN: I 14:00had a little desk there with some ( ) on it, and kept open all night, the first aid room with the light on. After that, when I went home, I had a cousin that was going to the University of Kentucky, specializing in Engineering. So about that time this ( ) program come in and they were having sending survey parties to check the agri( ) scale. The little wheel you know that they roll off to measure on. Well, they sent out a party to check that, and they had a party chief and they had someone to run the transit and two chain-men. Well, I was one of the two chain-men, and they sent us the aerial photographs, from all over the state. Might be Harlan, might be anywhere and they take and stick, made a point with a pen here and here and make it come out a triangle. Well, the party chief, had to furnish a car, he got ten dollars a day, the transit man got six, and each one of us got three. Well, we take them photographs and the party chief, he had to go find that—they would try to ( ) a driveway somewhere it would be easy to find and we chained that thing—measured it—by actual measure. 15:00We did that for a year. and sent it back to Lexington to the office to check the actual of the little scale there. And I worked on that off and on. We had run out of money see, see like everything else, when you got through you worked in a certain place, and then they paid you off. And then you worked on the next one and when you run out of money you go back home till they call you back.

BERGE: Hum-hum. (laughs) KELLEN: So then I did that for a couple of years, and then I worked around Sturgis, a sand, gravel company and a lumber company till Breckenridge opened up. And the way it opened up was when the war started, and I worked there nineteen years. And then, I went to Fort Knox in 1963, that’s where I met Leroy. And we stayed in the ( ) there, lived together in the same building 16:00most of the time and I—till 1975, till I retired with thirty-one years. That is how I met him, that’s how we know each other.

BERGE: Did you ever have to, did you ever ( )? Mr. Brown, did you ever work at Fort Thomas?

BROWN: No, that was—we were in the Fifth Corps area when we started. And they, that was our hospital area in case we took--now we also in 509, restricted ( ) meningitis that’s where 509—563 wasn’t restricted but we were compounded in. And I was having all this misfortune to be there when they … BERGE: How long did that last?

BROWN: I would say a month. We had one to die, one person to die. But finally, he died on the way to Fort Thomas. And he was a big healthy guy, and he was in line and he just started a drawing, and he just drawed and he was in pain and they got him in—nobody at first, you know, boy’s alright. But if they knew what it was already ( ), and so they said, 17:00“here get this boy in this ambulance.” Well the ambulance driver, they drove the thing out there, and put a little tape in his mouth and drove. That was the way and he went in, they born him—Rowe, they called him bad boy Rowe.

BERGE: Were there ever any injuries? In the work, in the park?

BROWN: Yes, and no. Biggest part of them was minor stuff, on our end of it. The carelessness is what really—I shouldn’t say this about some of the foremen, but some of the foremen were not really—they were politically appointed in the park units. And you didn’t have—now at first when we started, we had, you know, somebody like foresters and some park people that was more experienced, and they was more experienced and they taught safety to you. 18:00BERGE: Yeah.

BROWN: But later on, it became the boys and the leaders taught safety to you. So they wanted to hold them ranks and then they made them chalk the line.

KELLEN: I don’t remember us having any … BERGE: I was going to ask you Mr. Kellen… KELLEN: We didn’t have any at all.

BERGE: All the time you were there? Well, you know you were in a less dangerous kind of work, than in the forest.

KELLEN: It was, it was less dangerous. When we went in there we did a lot of hand work, we had to build sewer lines. We had to dig them by hand and build the platform, you had some men on the bottom and throw the dirt up on the platform, and the other man throwing it on top. You didn’t have machines to do it. And we put sewer lines in there and cleaned up the city dump. Before we built the barracks and everything, but we didn’t have any injuries.

BERGE: Mr. Brown did you ever have any of the guys get hurt fighting fire?

BROWN: No, our team—our camp didn’t. We were pretty well drilled {in} it, and took pride in it. Our ( ) because, like I say, we had a little bit better equipment than the rest of them. And 19:00we had our trucks, and we had them up on platforms, and had to bump that thing and she rolled in just like a fire truck. And all our equipment was backhoes, and back hand, the pumps, and we kept them—and we had a team that—I mean it was tops.

BERGE: You know another thing I wanted to ask you about. You two are primarily here together, because you went to two different kinds of places; like when you were here you were in an isolated kind of place, and when you were in Paducah you were where a lot of people were.

KELLEN: Yeah. A lot of them.

BROWN: From our end of it, even we taught safety like, getting on and off the trucks; watch the snakes up here, you are a city boy, you are going to step on a snake don’t mess with them. You see wild life don’t play with them.

BERGE: Speaking of wild life, did the boys ever have any trouble with the people that came here as tourists or anything?

BROWN: No, we didn’t. Whistled at the girls, and back in them days a yo-ho, 20:00like that general did that man in the army. I guess they would have throwed us over the falls. We always whistled at all the local girls that come to the falls you know. But we never had any of that smartness or any of that—it isn’t like today you didn’t have any of that—we respected them. And I think they had more pride in themselves.

BERGE: Did you have any problem with providing, oh, social life for the boys? Did you have any dances ? Did everybody have someone to dance with and thing like that?

KELLEN: Well, we didn’t have much of it in Paducah. But the boys in Paducah went to town, it seems like most ever where you went they didn’t have much trouble, there is always girls. They’d—back them you know strange boys come to town they would … BERGE: Would there be any fights between the local boys and the CCC boys?

KELLEN: There was some of it.

BROWN: Yeah.

KELLEN: Now we had some boys, old mountain boys up from here—I don’t know where they were from but them boys—some of them were pretty rough. 21:00We didn’t have no really trouble out of them. But they would get in a fight ever now and then. I remember once though, this was when we first came into camp, they somebody started a rumor they was going to issue Springfield rifles and start marching. We had a bunch go AWOL, they left.

BERGE: ( ).

KELLEN: Yeah. They didn’t want none of that.

BERGE: I’ll bet some of those army officers did try to… KELLEN: Some of them were a little arrogant.

BROWN: Yeah. ( ). Now the state of recreation in these areas, we had some ball teams, and we had a few games, a very few. But we pipe-lined all our people into Corbin, and had a couple two or three camps coming into Corbin. They would have a few ruckuses amongst them, but biggest part of them we would ( ) with them, we would play ball with them, and you’d have a few fights over a few girls. That’s about all that was. And I am sorry to say that at that 22:00time Corbin was wide open.

BERGE: It was, huh?

BROWN: I mean you talk about … BERGE: A wild town.

BROWN: You talk about a wild time. Can-can girl couldn’t hold a light to what they did down on their Depot Street, down there. But the police force, and the policemen, and the cops, and the sheriff, they just turned over backwards. They give our boys all the breaks in the world. They went out of their way to help us.

BERGE: You said Mr. Brown, that you were up there with a lot of those CCC boys when the big flood came?

BROWN: In Dawson Springs?

BERGE: Well in Paducah, too.

BROWN: Ok. Now, that camp was out of Dawson Springs. We used--their 3557 camp was building a camp down there. And they asked for us to come to Eddyville. So we went to Eddyville, and set up a side camp up on the graveyard hill, that took place down there up above the prison. 23:00And so, we set up a side camp, and it was snowing and sleeting during that darn thing. And I have a few pictures where they had flooded the town. And you could see the one little steeple up over there and all that stuff. Now they have flooded the whole area, and have the right of way the other way and moved the buildings down.

BERGE: I get when that big flood came to Paducah, that the water stayed up a long time.

KELLEN: Yeah, it stayed up a pretty good while. Now during that time, that was from the time when I was working on this survey. But I was back home, so I wasn’t in Indian Town Kentucky, and I helped carry some people out in boats, and also passed out sandwiches for the Red Cross. I come back and we had run out of money, and was back home … BERGE: I think the CCC helped a lot at that time.

BROWN: The only camp that I can recall that we really had outsiders was Henderson Kentucky, they had West Virginia boys. In Henderson, and they made a Bird Sanctuary 24:00there, you know ( ).

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

BROWN: Our problem there was, just like down at Dawson, we had local Kentuckians in there and they married all the girls down there.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of these guys from Kentucky, when they went to California, married those girls out there.

BROWN: They claimed every girl we had down there. And I kind of claimed Dawson after we moved in there, that was my home town too, and I said that this isn’t right you’re taking all those girls away.

KELLEN: I think there is still a few buildings left over in Morganfield where they had that camp over there.

BROWN: Yeah, there is a camp over at Morganfield.

BERGE: What do they use them for?

KELLEN: Ah, storage, or there might be some people living in them.

BROWN: Yeah. That was the soil conservation camp. I think … KELLEN: It was just … BROWN: Hardinsburg, 25:00( ) they were soil conservation and then they moved to Morganfield, and then they moved to Flemingsburg. I think they stopped in Flemingsburg, they were soil conservation.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

BROWN: Although we were unconnected we bought a lot of stuff in each camp, you know we swapped amongst ourselves.

BERGE: Yeah. Mr. Kellen, you were only in a short time, and you were probably related to the CCC’s a lot less time than most. How important was it in your life?

KELLEN: Well, see I never done nuthin’ in my life, I had never been out of Case, no further than the County Seat. Paducah, was a good way from home for me, and of course, it gave a lot of experience that I needed. And of course, I, it—I worked—I was taught to work, and it was the first time I had ever made any money. My grandparents, I was living with them--see my mother died when I was in the eighth grade. And I was with my grandparents, and they were at that time up in the years and 26:00they had old age assistance, was all they were living on.

BERGE: And that money was important to them.

KELLEN: That money was important to them. And at that time they were getting these commodities, and when I sent them the money they took them old people off the commodities. Thought I was giving them the money, and it all came home you know, and my grandmother, she took a portion of it--I don’t know how much--and saved for me, and when I come home, why she had my portion of the money there in the drawer.

BERGE: You know, a lot of people did that, and they didn’t have enough money to do it, but they did it.

KELLEN: No, she took the part that she wanted, and the rest of it was right there when I come home. And I lived with them after that, off and on till I got out on my own.

BERGE: How long did your brother stay in?

KELLEN: He stayed till the end.

BERGE: How did they work that? Wasn’t there a limit on how long you could stay?

BROWN: Ok. Now that brings a question. First there was a volunteer, that is when they walked in and they volunteered; and you were supposed to stay six months only. Well there was a rule change come out, and they let you extend. The 27:00Tech Service and them got together, usually Company Commanders took it over, and they recommend that you stay maybe another six months. Then they changed a while, at one time they let the Judges, if you skipped school, stole a few coins, lifted things, or in those days they didn’t have hub caps; but anyhow, instead of sending the kid to jail they said you go in the CCC camp. Well, what happened there, they just about run it. They beat the devil out of the boys and send them over the hill and finally they stopped that. And then it got to a point, at one time, you had to be on direct need of relief—and man I can remember them bringing them boys in there—no shoes, no haircut, actually a pair of pants that ( ) and they were underfed. 28:00They were actually malnutrition.

BERGE: Yeah, there were statistics that the average person gained seventeen pounds in the first six months they were in the CCC’s.

BROWN: That is possible. But that was another problem. They had to get their cooks made from the army side, and they had some camps, had to prepare mess hall instructions and so forth. Some didn’t have nothing nowhere it was all about. It was a little rough from that angle, but of course, being with the Park Service, I they never give the Tech Service any credit for running the CCC camps. They always say the army did it, but you had to have the project or you wouldn’t have the camp.

BERGE: That’s right.

BROWN: They give barracks for the foremen, barracks for the officers. They were so arrogant when this thing started, the officers thought they were the king–pins. So the only way we can control the talk 29:00and some of them would never give in; we owned all this equipment, the trucks and so forth except an old army ambulance. And then a lot of time our foremen and our mechanics had to help repair their trucks. That officer, the only thing you could get to him, was wouldn’t allow him to take our trucks out or they were supposed to turn over all the men that had work call except the overhead. All our doctors ( ) is sick and we had to put the bee on them, to turn you over their men. I don’t care you may want them to clean out something you are going to have inspection, they are our men till four o’ clock, get them over here. Then the officer they would say, “let’s send the boys to town to play ball.” “No man they are our state bodies, uh-huh.” Until we had to use it against them and some of them would sit down 30:00and say, “well, let’s get together.” Remember we are in this game too and that broke the barriers. They would take down the partitions and ( ) we would eat with them and so forth, and this had to be done. But boy, we had a some—they didn’t give a damn if you were..

BERGE: Yeah, probably worse in the beginning than it was later.

BROWN: Oh, yeah, huh-huh.

KELLEN: We had an old sergeant, he is still living, our first sergeant, we had.

BROWN: But we would, ah, many time I would say, “no, you can’t have a truck.” If that Captain and them people don’t want to play ball with us. Huh-huh. If they are running the camp, let them run it, and they would get in a tight spot and they would ( ).

KELLEN: We had a little trouble with the venereal diseases..

BROWN: With the what?

KELLEN: We had a little trouble with them for some reason, we had three or four boys at least and I think one of our cooks turned up one time and we had a problem. One of the cooks turned up with it.

BERGE: Huh-huh. Yeah. Maybe because you were in the city do you think?

KELLEN: I don’t know, whether some of them, where they got it. Some of them went to town a lot. 31:00And I, whether they got it there, and of course, we discharge them for that.

BERGE: Oh, they did?

KELLEN: Oh, yeah.

BROWN: Well, we didn’t have that because they married all the girls, we never did hear about it. Had a lot of babies, I know. (laughter) BERGE: A lot of weddings, huh?

KELLEN: You know, I remember one sent home; later on his mother wrote us a letter, ( ) were very ignorant you know, he didn’t come home yet, she hadn’t heard from him . And we had to try to explain to her, you know. I wrote her a letter, I don’t know, but we had three or four but that, I would say that was a little bit unusual.

END OF SIDE ONE TAPE ONE BEGIN SIDE TWO TAPE ONE 32:00BERGE: Huh-huh You were having trouble… BROWN: We were having trouble like, well, you need a mess sergeant, and you need a first sergeant, and you need somebody to do morning reports; like a good company clerk, or first aid boy. And so what they were doing they finally allowed five key men they called and they allowed five for the army and they allowed the Tech Service, that would be your Park Service, forest Service, and we could get five key men and then they became LEM, Local Experienced Men.

BERGE: Yeah, I have heard about them.

BROWN: Then the problem there was that, if we brought a stone mason, or a carpenter in, he would uniform and drew thirty dollars. And then 33:00he would become a leader, and he usually had to be a barracks leader and everything. And they would try to get him forty-five dollars. Well, the Tech, I mean the army side over here, would want a good mess sergeant, and stuff like this because some of their people weren’t too good a cooks or whatnot. So they get ( ) people, and that was the best thing that ever happened to the services stabilized. And we hollered, our side, we wanted a leader for a carpenter, or a stone mason, like if some of our foremen would set up ( ) they come out of a drug store somewhere. Soda jerks, they was the son of somebody who … BERGE: The son of some big shot.

BROWN: Yeah. We would say you are a junior foremen. And they would have no more control over those boys, so the LEM would be more the leader for us and they would work better for them and that did stabilize us a lot. We had good tool sharpeners and blacksmiths, and even mechanic helpers, and stuff like that. 34:00And of course, here again, we would run into a little problem. The army would say, “well if they are going to be leaders, there can be only so many, and assistant leaders get sixteen. Now they get forty-five and they would say, “well now, he has got to stay and build barracks.” Well, that ain’t the way our LEM looks at it. He’s got a family, let him go home. “Oh, no, we got to use him, as a leader.” And this kind of caused a little ( ) in some of the camps, but most of the time we got it straightened out.

BERGE: Did you have anything like that? Guys going home?

KELLEN: No.

BERGE: Were there many people that lived off the camp?

KELLEN: ( ) BROWN: Yeah, for example here, we let--most of our LEM’s were from Woodburn or Woodbine over here--we got them, they were real good carpenters or foremen, or leaders and stone mason, if you were a good stone mason we hired them. And they had families, 35:00and they would want to go home at night you know. And some of them were so good that we ranked them on up into the forty-five, you know, give them a leaders job, and then we had assistant leaders. Of course, on the army side, we used the assistant leader and let him be the honcho, you know, in one of their barracks. And some of the army officers they were ok, and they worked it out. So some ( ) most of our ( ) here was. We had a big boxing spirit here… BERGE: Hum-hum.

BROWN: Ah, between the camps and you know if he was a good fighter, I think everybody got their nose busted sometime. But we had a good spirit, amongst those boys. It is a different breed of boys than what they got today.

KELLEN: We didn’t have that problem, because all the time I was there, the boys that had the ratings was the cadre. They were still ( ) wasn’t no ratings and no problems; and I don’t remember having no problem 36:00with the supervisor. They lived close by and they didn’t have no problem going home. We didn’t have that problem. Just being eight months, and a new cadre and just getting started some things didn’t come up yet.

BERGE: Do you think, Mr. Kellen, that your brother think that the CCC was a good experience?

KELLEN: Oh, yes, yes, sir. He sure did. He later on went into the Navy and joined the Navy. But it was a good experience, and I guess one of the things is, you still see the results of it. Dollar wise , cost wise, per capita wise, it was one of the cheapest things we ever had. It didn’t cost much.

BERGE: It didn’t cost much.

KELLEN: And we are still seeing the results of it.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it probably saved a lot of those young men that came in from, really a bad time.

KELLEN: Some of them were starving. And they grew up, you know, grew up and got 37:00a kind of growth on them and that was the big thing right there. As I understand.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah. It really was a wonderful, it had a lot of good aspects to it.

BROWN: Oh, it, beside the conservation, and the preserves, for us and them. At the time we didn’t think about it, but looking back, Lord it was wonderful. I guess like the job corps, I’m not against it, but I was down at Mammoth Cave the other day, and I can’t believe that’s what them boys have got in front of them. Air conditioned homes and Union leaders, guaranteeing the scale, vacation rights; we worked all day, go to education if you could, when you left, so long, good-by.

BERGE: That is one thing I wanted to ask you both, and probably the last thing, because I need to do something 38:00right now; but did you, either of you, know any people who came in who couldn’t read and write?

KELLEN: I knew a lot of them who couldn’t. I mean some of them from my home there I knew were educated, but I knew a lot of them who come in who couldn’t read or write and they were past school age.

BERGE: Yeah. Did they teach them?

KELLEN: Yeah. They gave them teaching there.

BERGE: Were those effective? Did they learn anything?

BROWN: Yeah. See each camp had an Education Advisor. An educational man, maybe a superintendent or principle, and they then had an assistant leader who worked for them who was usually ( ). And some of the camps I can remember, yes they brought them in, and they couldn’t sign their names to sign the payroll. So that was one of the rules that they had, you must learn to write your name or you won’t get paid. They kind of put the bee on them to make them learn. Even I helped 39:00a couple of them. He would get a paper and read it, and make like he was reading, and he couldn’t sign the payroll. So one day they kept telling me you send that driver here to get paid, we got to turn this money in. And I kept saying, “go over there,” and he finally said, “Mr. Brown, I can’t sign my name.” And I was so embarrassed, I said, “hell, I will teach you then.” BERGE: Yeah.

BROWN: So I sat down and worked with him. Finally got him where he could get by, and then I took him over there and I said, “ this is why this boy –can’t read—can’t sign his name.” They said, “well, sign his name and stay on that line.” So I said, “now stay on that line.” So he put his name down and they paid him and I said, “now you be in class tomorrow, tomorrow afternoon.” And he finally learned to sign his name and that was Strickland, Oscar Strickland. And he was a—oh, you talk to him, intelligent and today he came on up and became 40:00a GS 12. Went overseas, you know, he is retired and became a training—Saudi Arabia and all this stuff--he is retired now, back you know. And he … KELLEN: If you really wanted to learn to write, they could do it, but you know you have to want to. A little side line, when I was in there, you making thirty dollars I needed a little spending money and I started to be a lender. So a guy came in say, “I’ll give you five for one payday.” So I would say, “ok.” Or, “I’ll give you three for one, or two for one,” or whatever they wanted to give me, I never set any interest. Then on payday I would set at the end of the line, where they drawed their line, I’d be there at the end of the line to collect my money; I never lost a dollar, The only thing I lost, I sold a guy a suit of clothes on credit and didn’t get that, but I collected, I got ever—that is the way I got my extra spending money.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

KELLEN: I didn’t 41:00have any to start with.

BROWN: I’ll say the CC was a great thing. I would like to see something—see we have twenty-one states already have—they use conservation, nationally. Kentucky don’t have the money. They are for it, I mean Bob has talked to Brown on down and they say they are for it one hundred per cent, but they don’t know where they are going to get the money. There is no where—right now they are tied up with education, trying to get it established, They got no money, no way to get money. Yes, they would like to have it ; they support it, but that is as far as we can get with it.

KELLEN: We ( ) the Masons are close to ( ) but they have a lot of trouble there.

BERGE: Yeah. A lot of money too.

KELLEN: Yeah, they have a lot of … BERGE: ( ) {They are all talking at once}

BROWN: Well, ever where see, the Department of Labor still … KELLEN: Well, they would like to come in town, but they are restricted.

BERGE: Yeah, I understand they have had some real serious problems.

KELLEN: They keep a lot of it under the … BERGE: First of all they bring a bunch of kids—inner city kids—who are bad kids to start with … KELLEN AND BROWN: ( ) ( ) that coed thing—you got that coed thing—that 42:00is the big problem—( ) this last trouble they had … BERGE: That would have been a big problem for you all. (laughter) KELLEN: They wouldn’t have worked for us..( ) BERGE: End up with a lot of trouble—trying to hide it. I want to thank you two for doing this for me and it is … END OF SIDE TWO TAPE ONE TRANSCRIBERS NOTE: MR. LEROY BROWN AND MR. ROBER KELLEN WERE INTERVIEWED AT THE SAME TIME; HENCE MR. BROWN ALSO APPEARS ON THIS TAPE.

END OF INTERVIEW.