Oral History Interview with James L. Hite

WILLIAM BERGE: The following is an unrehearsed tape interview with Mr. James L. Hite, of St. Louis Missouri. The interview is conducted on October 6, 1990 at Cumberland Falls State Park, by William Berge for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. Mr. Hite I am going to start off by asking you to tell me who you are, and where you were born, and when you were born, and things like that.

JAMES l. HITE: Am I ready to go sir?

BERGE: Yes. Go on.

HITE: My name is James Lucian Hite and I was born on June 3, 1915, in Carlisle County, which is the most western state… BERGE: County in the state of Kentucky.

HITE: That’s right. Right next to the Mississippi River. And I was three miles from a little town called Kirbyton, Kentucky.

BERGE: Spell that.

HITE: K-i-r-b-y-t-o-n. 1:00Kirbyton. That is where I married my wife, present wife, and she and I went to kindergarten together at Kirbyton school.

BERGE: Ok. Let me ask you this. What was your father’s name?

HITE: William Henson Hite. They called him Will Hite.

BERGE: Huh-huh. And your mother’s name?

HITE: Mary Gertrude Carrico Hite.

BERGE: Her last name was Carrico?

HITE: No, no. Oh. Before she was married?

BERGE: Before she was married, her maiden name.

HITE: Her maiden name Carrico.

BERGE: Yeah, Carrico, spell that.

HITE: C-a-r-r-i-c-o.

BERGE: Huh-huh.

HITE: It might be Italian, I am not sure.

BERGE: Yeah. There is a woman with that last name at Western Kentucky University who is a historian, Carol. Let me ask you this, what did your father do?

HITE: Well he was a pig farmer and raised a lot of corn. We had a square of land there. A square is six forty acres. 2:00( ).

BERGE: What did you—did you work on that farm I guess, as a boy?

HITE: Well, I started breaking ground with a two-horse plow when I was seven years old.

BERGE: Where did you go to school?

HITE: St. Charles.

BERGE: How long did you go to school?

HITE: I went through the eighth grade at St. Charles and wound up in Cunningham, had two years of high school at Cunningham, Kentucky. Which is four and one-half miles from where I lived and that was pretty long ways to walk. So you wouldn’t believe it, but I walked six months, four and one-half miles there, four and one-half miles back. There was quite a few boys around Kirbyton that did that. So I give up, I couldn’t finish it because I was needed to do some work on the farm with my dad.

BERGE: Let me ask you this—I’ll 3:00ask you—curious too--it was a very common occurrence, it seems to me ,and I don’t know why, but there were an awful lot of people quit high school after two years. What was—because you were sixteen or seventeen, or what was it?

HITE: Well, a… BERGE: That was very common though wasn’t it?

HITE: Sure. But I think it was because of a lack of a—lack of money. We wanted to go to the big towns like Detroit. Well, first they started leaving my country and went up in Illinois to the coal fields.

BERGE: Like around Carbondale and places like that?

HITE: ( ) That was the biggest part where they would go. And they would come back with the old Model T’s… BERGE: And a little bit of money.

HITE: …a little bit of money and we—they could buy a coca-cola for a nickel and 4:00get some crackers and a baloney sandwich from my father-in-law’s store for a nickel and a… BERGE: It was a temptation I guess.

HITE: It was. We needed—we needed the money.

BERGE: So what did you do when you finished high school?

HITE: Well, I began to want to get away from home. That was what I told dad. Well, then my dad began—see they—at that time the depression was on and he didn’t take the banker up ( ). A lot of people took the banker up ( ). My dad signed a five thousand dollar check—I mean a… BERGE: Note.

HITE: …note to a good friend of his and would you believe it, my dad had to pay it off.

BERGE: Sure,( ). (laughs).

HITE: He took the banker up ( ). This guy did. He moved to Paducah and all of his properties and everything he turned it over—eventually—when he would buy anything 5:00it would always be in hi son’s name and you couldn’t touch it.

BERGE: That’s right.

HITE: We tried to garnish the wages and couldn’t touch it. So then that more or less… BERGE: Yeah. Meant you all had something to do.

HITE: Sure. So then we had a little project down in Carlisle County. I guess it was everywhere, all the way in Kentucky, that you could work on the County roads; like cutting bushes along--the right of ways or putting in culverts or something. I think it was called—was it called RFC, before the C.C.C. came in?

BERGE: Well there was the W.P.A., and ( ) W.P.A. and C.C.C. started about the same time.

HITE: No, W.P.A., ( ) (they are talking at once)… BERGE: ( ) they started about the same time.

HITE: Well, C.C.C. started first W.P.A. ( ).

BERGE: I don’t know when they started, but it wasn’t—what did you call it?

HITE: It was something like RFC. Now here… BERGE: ( ) Finance Corporation.

HITE: Yeah, well that—I know what that was—it had something to do like RFC--Rural 6:00something, Rural Work. Well now let me get to the point and tell you.

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: You got no money, you’d work so many hours a day, for five days and they would give you a thing, it looked like a laundry slip. Started out with A, B like beans, flour, sugar, and then how much you want. Well, see I was only getting three dollars fifty cent a day, you know, no money, but three fifty a day for doing that. And at the end of the week, why I would take it to my father-in-law’s store. He’s my father-in-law now, but he wasn’t then naturally. So then we would take it there or I would take it over to Cunningham and get a box or groceries. 7:00BERGE: Hum-hum.

HITE: So then I decided that I would join the C.C.C..

BERGE: How did you hear about them?

HITE: Well, ah, see it started in thirty-three—C.C.C. did--and I didn’t enter it till June when I got eighteen ( ).

BERGE: So you knew about them?

HITE: I knew about it and there was a little… BERGE: Did you know people who were in it?

HITE: No I was the first one in that part of the state. When I registered to go see, they sent me from Carlisle County Court House, a letter to come down to Bardville on a certain morning and my number was a certain number see. And they wouldn’t interview you there but you would get on a truck—an open truck—with about twenty other fellas from Carlisle County 8:00and we went to Paducah, to be examined in a Post Office Building there in Paducah. So they gave me my papers and every one of us boys that climbed up into the back of this cattle truck—what they call a stake body truck—so we went to Paducah and lined up you know, and called our names. And so then the doctor started examine us so I—on my card that I had it did not say that I was really going to be in the CC’s. I was a substitute in case some of the boys failed the exam then I would like sub—I was a substitute—and then the doctor would call me. So about eleven o’ clock came and no one had failed to pass. I thought, “well I don’t guess I am going to ( ).” So 9:00a few minutes a fella sitting’ beside me said, “can you imagine, I failed to pass.” I thought, “oh boy, I was going to get in now.” BERGE: Hum-hum.

HITE: So about that time the doctor said, “James Lucian Hite.” “Here Sir.” I got up and went up there and he said, “strip off the clothes.” And he weighed me and everything. He looked in your ears and your eyes and your teeth and everything. He said, “ok.” So he didn’t weigh me then he looked in my ears and everything was ok; my eyes was ok, I could see good, hear good and everything. So he said, “well we are going to have to weigh you”, and he said, “ take off your clothes and your shoes and everything.” He weighed me and I weighed one hundred and seven pounds.

BERGE: What time—what time of the year—did you have any experience like this? Was that a concern about you getting in, your weight?

HITE: I am surprised because the doctor said, “hey Hite, I am 10:00sorry but you are going to have to put on some weight somehow.” And I said, “well listen I got to go to lunch.” And I said, “I will tell you what I will do I will go down here to the market and I will buy four pounds of bananas.” He said, “ you got any money?” I said, “well I got enough to buy five pound of bananas, you can get five pounds for a quarter, or four pounds.” So he said, “here, here is a quarter, you go get them and eat them. Eat them slow,” he said. (laughter). So I said, “Ok.” So I went down to the store—I knew him real well there—bought four pounds of bananas, eating them slow and drinking water, you know. So then I got back there… BERGE: ( ) you had enough cattle you knew how to do that didn’t you? (laughter) HITE: So when I got back to the Post Office, about forty-five minutes later and he said, “ we are all present, we are ready to start.” And he said, “James Lucian Hite.” 11:00And I said, “yes, sir.” Went up there and he felt my muscles, he said, “yeah you might”—he was just kidding you see ‘cause I was just a kid—I got on them scales and would you believe it, you gained three pounds and three quarters. I was over weight. (laughs) BERGE: You were over—(laughs) HITE: So he said, “you are in.” BERGE Yeah. And then where did you go?

HITE: Well, we fooled around till he got all of them examined. Then they carried us over to a—well it is not a Union Station like St Louis, but it was called the Illinois Central Station. And he said, “there will be a passenger train go out of there at , I think it was three forty-five at that afternoon, he says, “you will be going to Fort Knox.” I said, “that sounds all right, never been on a train before—don’t even know what it looks like in those coaches.” 12:00So we got on there, started riding you know and all of a sudden wham it got dark, I said, “what the hell is this?” BERGE: A tunnel.

HITE: Oooh, went through a tunnel—cold smoke and everything began to come through here—had the windows open looking out you know.

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: And so—see we only had one coach—wasn’t allowed to go from one to another. And so pretty soon when it got around to Central City or somewhere why I heard them shaking the dice. I didn’t know what the hell that clicking you know—they would throw it up against the—and those guys was down on the floor shooting craps.

BERGE: The guys you were going with?

HITE: Yeah. Yeah, they had been broke in good from somewhere, because I didn’t know what shooting craps were.

BERGE: Well, they were from Paducah. They were big town guys.

HITE: Maybe so. But anyway it wasn’t long until, wow, it got dark again, another tunnel, I thought, “good God.” This must nothing but hill country up through here by Central City. So anyway 13:00we got into Fort Knox, I don’t know probably midnight and it was in June because my birthday was the third and it was past my birthday. But anyway we fooled around outside of--when we got off the train in Fort Knox the military was there to meet us. They… BERGE: Were there many people beside you, or was there just the one little group?

HITE: Well, there was from Hickman County too, had come in there and went on down… BERGE: That’s about the same time you did didn’t they? (This apparently to someone else in the room.) UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: What?

BERGE: He went in on about the same time you did, didn’t they?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: We were thirty-five.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

HITE: Oh, I went in, in nineteen thirty-four and he went in thirty-five. I was a year ahead of him. But anyway the expanse of Fort Knox, that was kind of frightening.

BERGE: How long did you stay there?

HITE: About ten or eleven days. Anyway 14:00enough that I got on KP when I was there. Can you imagine that?

BERGE: Yeah. Were there people from all over the Kentucky area or just… HITE: I don’t know. I ah, I was the type of guy that I just got ahold of a couple of men or boys and palled with them and paid no attention to outsiders. But anyway, in Fort Knox that morning they got us—they called our names and we had to line up in two and two, see, and they marched us over to a big examinating room. You know, stripped us all and marched us through and I was one watching you know, if there was going to be a doctor over here and a doctor over there. And they had assistants that give you--give the doctor—when 15:00they were shooting you—you have a cotton swab and rub you and they would {shwoot}, (phonetics) stick you with a needle. You’d be looking there and a guy would be over here doing something to the other arm, see. So we went on through with the exams and so, you know we were always hearing the soldiers—soldier boys along the side where they could see us, they were always hollering, “we didn’t get that crooked needle.” Had you heard that stuff?

BERGE: (laughing) Yeah. It’s working. Yeah.

HITE: Where did you get that crooked needle?

BERGE: ( ).

HITE: My buddy said, “I wonder what that crooked needle is? I never heard of that.” BERGE: That’s funny.

HITE: So then he was being examined and they would tell you to bend over and spread 16:00your cheeks, or something like that. And my buddy when they told him—there were two doctors over there—there was two lines of us… BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

HITE: So this buddy of mine he bent over to spread his cheeks, you know, and the doctor must have stooped down and touched him on the back end, and you know what? He damn near fainted! He thought that touch was going to be it. But anyway we went on through there… BERGE: (giggles) That was going to be the crooked needle.

HITE: Yeah. That was the end of the crooked needle. But then—then another thing came to me. They were shooting me in the arms and then when I finished there he told me he said, “urinate in that bottle over there.” And I said, “ from way over here?” (laughter) He said, “no.” BERGE: You ( ) stayed on the farm. (laughter) HITE: Yeah. I—he said, “no, go over there.” BERGE: You thought it was going to be a distance contest. (laughs) HITE: So I stepped out of line and went over there, you know, and peed it full and he said, 17:00“that’s enough, don’t run it over.” Well, I didn’t know how much he wanted and I didn’t even know what he wanted it for; but now then I know, he wanted to test for sugar and stuff like that. So we went on through there and then the next thing was our supplies. We went through the supply room it was opened up like a big truck and two guys was in there throwing them at you. They said, “what size shoe do you wear rookie?” Or something like that. So I said, “Well I wear a size seven and one-half.” He says, “cool, hey here’s a pair of nines. I can’t find a pair of seven and one-half,” he says, “maybe your buddy has a pair of seven and-one-half and he needs your nines.” I said, “ok.” It didn’t make no difference to me. Ok, he gave me a pair of—had a big old bag thing, man it was big.

BERGE: ( ).

HITE: Yeah. well you see he was throwing and I was catching and stuffing the things in there. 18:00And he says, “what size pants?” I said, “I don’t know just denim.” He says, “that’s about all you are going to get.” So he would throw me a pair of OD’s and a pair of blue jeans, you know like we had on the farm when we was suckering tobacco and stuff you know. So I filled my bag up with things you know.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: You had to remember to get your clothes when you went in the artillery. If you didn’t get them, you went stark naked.

HITE: Yes! (laughs) So then I got outfitted see, and they took us over—I will never forget this it was a double two story barracks. And my barracks number, I will never forget it, was Area C, Company J-53.

BERGE: How do you remember that stuff?

HITE: I don’t know. It is like a Social Security number, I know my Social Security number. But as easy as that, 19:00but I was talking to Leroy Brown and he said, “you know what I didn’t live too far from that company number, Area C, Company J-53.” But anyway then they gave us a fifty per cent shot—you were supposed to get what they call a hundred per cent--but you get fifty per cent today and next week on the same day you get the other fifty per cent see.

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: Then I guess you are inoculated for scurvy and all that stuff, I don’t know what all it was for. But in the mean time the Sergeant, when they lined us up for roll call outside there, he says, “we need a few men to go to areas somewhere out,” and he just looked us over and I was the short that one, he said, “we need you, you and you.” Just like that, “ step forward.” I stepped forward, he says, “ you going to be—follow this sergeant he’s going to a mess hall in another area.” I thought, “well, what the heck.” I went over there 20:00and boy listen here they put me to work scrubbing tables, not only on the top, but underneath too, with ( ) lye soap water. And I had on that pair of number nine shoes, that new cow-hide leather and everything and you put—and then after we did the tables we had to do the floors, with the mop, you know and take and squeeze it out—push that water all over. And got that so my doggone shoes began to fade you know, that nice brown that ( ) lye, getting wet see and they got slicky, you know, so I said to my friend, I said, “you know what?” After we had that kitchen floor pretty well soaped up with that lye soap and everything, I said, “you know what? I could skate on this damn floor, my shoes are slicky.” He said, “why don’t you try it Hite?” And I said, “Ah I better not.” So I kept moving that damn mop back and—so I seen the cook go into a door 21:00and come out with the gallon cans of food—he was getting ready to open those cans to make stew or soup or something.

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: So I was up the ( ) and he went back in that door and I told this boy, “I’m going to try to skate, just for the damn fun of it.” so I get a couple of runs you know and start skating, oh man it was slick, ‘bout the time I got to them doors, that son of a bitchin' sergeant came out of that door with them cans and I hit him. (laughter) Cans everywhere, he said, “you ain’t going to get out of this for about three weeks.” And I had to go back over there every day until I shipped out.

BERGE: Where did you go to?

HITE: Well, at first they didn’t tell me where I was going, but we were going to Louisville for sure. 22:00See at Fort Knox it is only about forty miles up to Louisville. So we got to Louisville and that train switched up and down the track. I don’t know there must have not been a round house or something, but finally they moved around and I—it was at nighttime—and we moved around and we headed—it looked to me like I was going east, which I was then, when the train pulled out of there. I went east and then it began to change and it felt like I was going south again. I was going down to London and Corbin Kentucky. So I didn’t know for sure, but I felt well, some of the boys had a map and they were looking on that and yeah we were going down toward Corbin and Pineville. So sure enough, that 23:00morning when the sun came up we looked out, you know and man we were in the hills then. Finally, you see, me being from the lower end of Kentucky, we didn’t know what hills were hardly, man they looked big. On the side of that track of the train was a river, oh man you looked down and you couldn’t see no bottom hardly. And it would switch around, and actually the train they had the seats that was made out of straw and if the train went backwards you could shove that seat and change and ride thataway.

BERGE: Yeah, you could move the back of it.

HITE: Yeah, you could move the back and you could ride backwards or you could ride frontwards. But anyway I’ll tell you … BERGE: Where did you end up?

HITE: Well we ended up at Harlan County Kentucky, that is that day. And a—well I was going to tell you about the crooked railroad.

BERGE: Oh, yeah.

HITE: That train would be going along like that and you would look out the danged window and the engine was coming back. You look over there and the guys would say, “hey, where did it go?” Thinking’ I was on the same 24:00damn—that is just the way it was, back and forth. So we went on up to Harlan and they had pull up I guess it was a switch yard or something. They would pull up and bang, banging back and forth and they would come up—of course, after I got a little age on myself I looked around over the country and I could see--I had a—they didn’t have no round table over there for the train engines to turn, so they had some tracks so they could change the direction.

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: Then they went up between Black Mountain and Pine Mountain. Were you ever up there?

BERGE: Yeah, a lot of times.

HITE: Ok. So then we went to Putney Kentucky, Company 512.

BERGE: Huh, that was some experience for you, to get to Putney, wasn’t it?

HITE: Oh, my God man.

BERGE: What did you all do up there?

HITE: Well, first two or three days 25:00they give us—I guess a little chance to get our legs back to where we could run around and everything. And well, the first—I’m going to tell you—the first days that we didn’t have to go out on the job or anything, they let us just sight see by walking. You know there was a hill up there that you couldn’t hardly—you could see cows way up in the top. And I said, “good God, let’s take a hike up there and see what that looks like. Look at the country up there.” So we started walking—that was on the Black Mountain side--so we started walking and we looked back and you could see the camp way down there. The farther you got up that way the littler the camp … BERGE: Was the camp pretty well established or … HITE: No, it had been 26:00finished as far as the barracks were concerned. But the grounds had to be leveled and smoothed, it was rough. It took us probably a year to get the company street … BERGE: What did they take you up there for? What kind of work did they have you doing?

HITE: Well, we were completing the Laden Trail Were you ever on the Laden Trail?

BERGE: No, but I know of it.

HITE: You know of it, ok. We completed the Laden Trail over on the Pine Mountain side.

BERGE: When you got to work on that trail, how did they transport you to where you were working.?

HITE: Well, they had stake-body trucks … BERGE: Ok. The road was good enough?

HITE: Oh, hell no, not good, it had to be good enough, you know cause the government mail carriers rode mules up there.

BERGE: Was it a Star Route?

HITE: I don’t know if that was a Star Route or not, but on the other side of Pine Mountain down on the other, on the north side, 27:00slope of the Pine Mountain was what they called the Pine Mountain Settlement School. Did you ever hear of that?

BERGE: Yeah, I’ve been there.

HITE: Oh, you’ve been there. Before it burned down?

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: Yeah? It was a pretty damn place. Oh, excuse me I’m on tape.

BERGE: No, that’s good. So how long did you work up there?

HITE: Well, I was in that camp. Let’s see it was June of thirty-four and June of thirty-five was one year, and June of thirty-six was two years. Now, I don’t want to skip over one thing while I got a better job in the camp. See at first I was riding those trucks ever morning to help them make little rocks out of big rocks.

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: And drive steel. Shake steel. First day on the job when I was carried out there on the job at Laden Trail, past Rebels Rock, if you know where that is.

BERGE: Yeah I know of it.

HITE: Ok. You never seen it? You had to have seen it if you went up Laden Trail because it is right on the Trail. 28:00I’ll tell you a story about the Rebels Rock in a minute. But anyway, got up there and my boss, his name was Charley Cobb--he was a feller, he was a general superintendent over Clinton Camp. I don’t know what happened to him. He gave up that job, or whether he lost it or something, or maybe they demoted him from Clinton’s Camp as general superintendent cause that is a pretty good job. So he was up there, I found out, you know, I found out about him when I got up there and got acquainted with everybody. So Cobb, was my foreman, my boss, and he first day out he was telling me, now he says, “you are little, I am going to let you shake steel.” I said, “anything 29:00as long as it’s a job.” So steel starting off is about that long, it is hexagon and it has got a star like that—four corners. And each one little point is a cutting edge. Did you ever see one?

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: Ok, well then, no use explaining it to you.

BERGE: What were you using it for?

HITE: Well, we was going to make a hole about three foot deep, and then put three sticks of dynamite down in there like a ( ).

BERGE: Like a star drill?

HITE: Well, I was using a star drill. That was the name of it. But from the lower end of Kentucky and never been out of the back yard you wouldn’t know what a star drill was. You would think ( ).

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

HITE: But anyway … BERGE: How long did it take you to drill one of those holes? Do you remember?

HITE: Oh, yeah. If you gonna drill one down about three feet it would probably take about three hours. I’d guess, probably a foot an hour. 30:00But anyway, I would shake the steel and start shaking it and Cobb told me, he said, “now when you shake—when the guy hits it you turn it a quarter. He hits it you turn another quarter and so on like that.

And then when a lot of dust starts flying out of there you hold your hand up and he is supposed to stop, you pull out the star drill and you take a mud stick, wet it and put it down in there and blow it out.” So I had never paid no attention to the guy that was driving my steel. So I got it going and he did pretty good at it for a while you know, and he made a dense hole down in there so that the bottom of it, so that the star wouldn’t slip around, so he was hitting along and all of a sudden he started missing, letting me glance over you know.

BERGE: That got your attention didn’t it?

HITE: That got my attention, ‘cause my knuckles was bare. (laughter) So finally he hit and 31:00missed and kind of hit my little knuckle there but not hurt at all but it stung a little bit. And I looked up and I was going to say, “hey, can’t you see no better than that.?” But I didn’t say nothing to him; I looked up and he was cross-eyed. (laughter) So I said---so I told--I said, “Mr. Cobb, I got to go down here in the trench I got to take a pee-pee.” BERGE: Well, you had already demonstrated that you could do it ( ) that room ( ) (laughter).

HITE: But anyway I went down there and on the way back I got Mr. Cobb up against a tree, and I said, “hey, Mr. Cobb, can’t you give me something else to do.” I said … BERGE: ( ) different anyway.

HITE: “I looked at that guy and he can’t see too well ‘cause he ( ), he’s cross-eyed.” And Cobb, he said, “well I’ve got the job for you.” I said, “ fine.” 32:00He says, “you can be the water boy.” Did you ever see a water can that ( ) with? Got that—you strap it on your back. It fits good on your back and you have about a two foot hose here, and then you holler, “you want water?” And they will say, “yeah.” And you just pull that little cork out of it and you can fill up a canteen in no time, see. So Cobb gave me that job, he said, “I didn’t know that he was that bad.” I said, “well anyway let’s don’t talk about him.” I said, “ he is surviving too.” So I got to be the water boy.

BERGE: How long did you do that?

HITE: Well, I guess about ninety days. That was a good easy job ‘cause see you fill up the canteens 33:00and you could go down there … BERGE: And get water.

HITE: And get water and you could sit or lay back under the chestnut trees in the shade and you could just sit there, or you could go to sleep. And then about an hour later you would hear somebody holler, “water Jack, you should have been there and half-way back.” Well then I would get up and run up there and water them, and then I would run back down. Anyway here’s the—we get off of that—so then he said, ah, Cobb said, “I’ll tell you what, we got a caterpillar tractor coming in here, a bulldozer,” and he says, “how would you like to run a bulldozer?” Well, I said, “let’s get it here first and I’ll tell you.” So in about three days a ( ) yellow-jacket caterpillar come in there 34:00and it had a blade on it , man that would push those rocks and dirt and everything you know. So they brought it up on the mountain and Cobb says to me, “did you ever drive a car?” BERGE: Let me turn this over.

END OF SIDE ONE TAPE ONE BEGIN SIDE TWO TAPE ONE HITE BERGE: Ok. Go on.

HITE: So they got the Caterpillar in and Cobb gave me a few lessons about how this lever pulls it to the right and this pulls it to the left.

BERGE: Did you ever see one before?

HITE: Not a Caterpillar. But I had seen a … BERGE: Allis Chalmers?

HITE: Allis Chalmers cleat track, which is about the same thing. But anyway, they got it off and inspected it and a fella by the name of Dillon was the big mechanical advisor or something down there at the work shop. 35:00But anyway, Cobb, he wanted me to run that Caterpillar tractor. So I got so I could handle it. After you put it in gear you know the little gear and you drive it, you don’t have to shift, ( ) you just gotta know how to stop it and turn it and back it and is about all there was to that.

BERGE: How long did you do that?

HITE: Well, I did that, I guess about four months. Now there was a story about that tractor. At noon time they had thirty minutes lunch break. Sit down along the side of the road and the truck would come up from the mess hall with the sandwiches made. Like a baloney sandwich and a cheese sandwich and a liverwurst sandwich and no kind of salad, 36:00or nothing to put on it, it was dry, pretty hard to swallow it sometimes, that liverwurst. But anyway, while we were eating lunch after I had used the tractor for, I guess, maybe three or four weeks. I got so I could handle it real good, push dirt, push rocks and everything, even push down little trees with it. So at lunch we were eating and—so we had a fella there from Whittlet, Kentucky, his name was Lazy Bones Stephens—and I’ve looked him up … BERGE: That is close to where you are from.

HITE: It sure is, that is Ballard County and I am from Carlisle. So Herschel Fifthton said to Cobb one day at dinner, he said—I left the engine running—and, to eat my sandwich off the tractor--so Herschel Fifthton said to Mr. Cobb, “hey 37:00Mr. Cobb, I would like to learn how to drive a Caterpillar too.” He was my size, about one size large than me, Lazy Bones was. So Cobb said, “get up on there then and move it back and forth, and move it forward and reverse and, left and right and see a little bit I could use another assistant.” Lazy Bones got up on it and he backed up and then he’d let the blade down, push a little dirt and back up, he’d lay the blade down and push a little dirt and pretty soon he had a pretty good load. So somebody says that Herschel Fifthton says, “push that load over the bank, back up and push it over the bank.” So Herschel was doing pretty good, looked like he could do it. So he backed the tractor back down and got a great big load and he was coming 38:00up through there, he cut it to the right, put it straight to the side of the road and he pushed it over and the dirt began to roll over. Somebody said, “go a little farther with it.” Would you believe what happened? (laughter) BERGE: He went all the way over. (laughs) HITE: Whew! The saddest day of my life.

BERGE: That was the end of your job wasn’t it?

HITE: Eighty-five thousand dollar tractor went down that hill. Running on it’s tread and all of a sudden it started flipping; it made a path that looked like it was a damn General George Patton’s tank had popped those trees down there.

BERGE: I guess you never did get another bulldozer, did you?

HITE: Well, I’ll tell you, they got another bulldozer, but I got a job in the kitchen. But that was the best job of the whole CC. 39:00The kitchen.

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: But anyway let me finish this tractor business, it took them three months to get that tractor out of there. They had to build another road to go in there and to bring it out.

BERGE: Down the side of the mountain?

HITE: Yeah. Just off the Ladon Trail, heading toward the Pine Mountain Settlement School.

BERGE: Do you ever run into anybody that you worked with up ( )?

HITE: Huh? Oh, you mean since it’s been over. Yes, yes, see I have been coming up here for the last seven or eight years. Yeah . I run through quite few. There was a fella by the name of—now see I would have to—oh, his last name was Boyles. And we called him measles. He and I had the measles together one time and we were quarantined in a damn fourteen foot tent up by the side of the dispensary and that … Anyway to get back we got that tractor out of there and then I was out of a job there, but of course, I could go back to driving steel, but I didn’t want to do that… 40:00BERGE: (laughs) ‘Cause that guy was cross-eye. (laughter) HITE: So I was on the KP for the weekend, because a man by the name of John Hearns, a first sergeant in one of the barracks, he didn’t like me and he was always--when we had roll call, and when we would go out to pick up match sticks and cigarette butts and everything—I don’t know why he didn’t like me. He was a big rough looking guy—weighed about—he was about six foot tall, and probably weighed one hundred and twenty-five pounds--and he was awful rough on me. I don’t know why to this day. But anyway, he would watch me and if I passed over a piece of chewing gum paper and didn’t pick it up he would chew me out. And he said, “if I have to tell you again to pick up anything I am going to put you on KP for the duration of your tour with this outfit”. 41:00Well, I didn’t know what to do. So then I got on KP, see he put me on KP, for the week-end. So I was in there on a Saturday night and a first Lieutenant, who was kind of short, came in with his girl friend about, I guess seven ‘ o clock and I was cleaning up the kitchen, and everything, mopping the floor. So the Lieutenant said, “what’s your name son?” And I said, “Lucian Hite, I am in barracks five over here.” He said, “can you cook?” I said, “sure I can cook. My mom showed me how to cook and everything. I can fry steak and bacon, fry eggs and everything,” I said, “why?” He said, “I got my girl friend in here and she is an ( ), mess hall, Officers Mess, 42:00he said, “here are the keys to that walk in cooler over there.” He said, “just go in there and show me that you can cut off a piece of steak, fry us two steaks. Fry four eggs, over light and bring it in there when you get it done.” I said, “all right.” So he gave me the keys and I went in there and a hind quarter hanging there and I cut off a couple of good slices, not half inch thick, ‘cause I don’t like it that thick. But it was a little over a quarter of an inch thick each slice was. Cut ‘er off nice, trim the edges off of it, cut out some of the fat meat, you know fix it up right. Salted it good on both sides, and got some flour and floured it good on both sides. And I was really going to fix them up good, slide it in an big old iron skillet, ‘cause that’s the only way 43:00to really fry steak. So I fried the steak and fried his eggs. You know had one of them big platters like that and put the steaks in the middle and two eggs here and two eggs over here. Fixed two plates for them and by that time I had a pot of coffee made for them—took that in there and got them bread and everything. So I went ahead then and finished up the kitchen cleaning. Just about then he and his girl friend came back into the kitchen where I was, and said, “what did you say your name was?” I said, “Lucian Hite.” He said, “that is a damn good steak.” I said, “well thank you.” And she said, “the eggs was fried just right.” BERGE: What did she look like?

HITE: Oh, let me tell you , those officers they had good looking women.

BERGE: They always did, that is why I asked you what she looked like. 44:00HITE: So he said to me, he said, “what are you doing now?” I said, “I tell you Lieutenant,” I said, “I’ve been treated a little rough up on that mountain and it is not my fault and I said John Hearns has been giving me a rough way to go and I said I can’t take much of that.” He said, “you report here Monday morning, my name is Lieutenant Short.” And he said, “I am going to make a cook out of you.” I said, “Ok.” I’d do anything after that not to have to ride them old stake-bodied trucks up the mountain. (laughter).

BERGE: ( ) HITE: Yahoo! So I want to tell you—what did you say?

BERGE: When you all were living there when you would go into town, where did you go?

HITE: Harlan. And you had to watch yourself, because the natives, they didn’t like us. Because I understood—and 45:00I could tell it—they were jealous of us. They didn’t want you to fool with their women. That’s right. We had a CC boy in Harlan Camp that got killed.

BERGE: ( ).

HITE: Bledsoe. Yeah. So that was more or less off limits and we got to called into the recreation hall maybe once every three weeks to kind of caution us boys about fooling with the native women. But yeah, we’d go there and we would go to the ( ) Grand Theatre every—about the best theatre there in Harlan and we’d go in a Government truck. They had one Government truck a metal bed. You know the double truck with a tarp over it, seats on the side.

BERGE: Yeah, Seats on the side.

HITE: Olive drab color—seats on the side and I think it had one across 46:00the back. The back was against the cab. Then if they had more boys than that would take, then they would take one of the stake trucks and load it up with boys. We would go in every Saturday night and they had a certain hour to pick you up and if you were not there it was just SOL. You would have to walk ten miles.

BERGE: How long did you stay there?

HITE: Let’s see. I stayed there from—well—November, November of thirty-six, I put in for a transfer. But anyway, let me go ahead and finish about this cooking.

BERGE: Ok. You stayed there three years?

HITE: Sure.

BERGE: Ok.

HITE: Now, you know there was a limitation 47:00you could only stay so long, unless you were special, then they would remit, reinstate or reenlist again. The company would. So see I started out thirty-six dollar man, second cook in the kitchen. Well in sixty days, buddy I was a forty-five dollar man. They raised me up to first cook. Right next to the damned, Mess Sergeant so man I was doing all right. I was breaking in cooks you know.

BERGE: Did you stay a cook till the end?

HITE: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So then, in—when I began to think, you know that I should get out and look for something better, because it was just getting by you know. I was looking forward to years to come. 48:00I couldn’t stay in the CC and not advance myself some. So I told Lieutenant Short, I said, “listen Lieutenant I need a transfer.” “Heck, I can’t let you go.” I said, “I gotta go.” That was in November the first, I believe of … BERGE: Of thirty-six?

HITE: Of thirty-six.

BERGE: In those years you were up there … HITE: Yeah.

BERGE: Did you ever go home to visit?

HITE: One time. One time. But then see, I got a transfer—I was transferred—I had already transferred to Company 3560 in Paducah. See, I wasn’t pulling out of the CC, I wanted to transfer back home. Then I could be close to my mother and dad. So they said Ok in ten days you will have it. You go to 3560 and you see Captain Somebody 49:00there. They gave me a sealed manila envelope with stuff in it and I didn’t know what was in it. But anyway, the transfer came through and I went down there just after Thanksgiving and transferred into 3560. So I gave it to the Captain—I can’t think of his name, I believe it was Captain Cohen I believe it was—and he said, “oh, I am glad to meet you sir, Mr. Hite” and stuff like that. And I think that was on a Friday and he says, “you want, you can take the rest of the week off,” he said , “you can go to your dad and your mother’s place and then come back Monday.” I said, “Ok.” So that river started coming up, we had a heck of a big flood there. So it came fast.

BERGE: The winter of thirty-six? 50:00HITE: The winter of thirty-six past Thanksgiving see. So I started cooking there and the cooks didn’t exactly like it because, you know, I guess I was kind of stepping on someone’s toes. I don’t know. So I was—I would do whatever the Mess Sergeant would tell me to do, his name was ( ) he was a little bitty Italian guy. But anyway, I was ( ) stalling for time again because I wanted to advance and if possible, I would like to be first cook again. But anyway, the Mess Officer didn’t push it and I was the second cook and I had to kind of take orders a little bit from a second cook although I was a second cook too. I mean you know, I was a cook but I ( ) me to nothing there. 51:00BERGE: Huh-huh.

HITE: So the river kept coming up, and coming up and then it came over the foot of Broadway and then it began to run into the low places of our camp ground. So they began to make preparations what they were going to do, they could see it was coming. So seventy-five of us kitchen people and a couple of sergeants they moved us to Club Lakeview. Do you know where Club Lakeview is at?

BERGE: Hum-hum.

HITE: Well it is a kind of a golf course outside of Paducah on Highway forty-five, and man let me tell you it is someplace. You ain’t got nothing around here that looks like Club Lakeview, I’ll tell you. Then about that time we had to set up a field kitchens at the end of Broadway and Avendale Heights. Do you know anything about Paducah?

BERGE: A little bit.

HITE: Well, the Avendale Heights begins at the Thirty-Second street in Paducah. 52:00And there’s where Forty-Five comes around like that and Avendale Heights goes around like this in the hills. Here now is a Coca-Cola bottling company right there in the corner. Well right where that coca-cola bottling company is, is where we set our field kitchen. At that time they were hauling the people out of Paducah, you know, water refugees you call them. So we started cooking. We would feed maybe two or three hundred people, for breakfast, two or three hundred people for dinner, we kept food—because people were bring food from all over the lower part of … BERGE: Who were you feeding? Just anybody?

HITE: Anybody that wanted a bottle of milk, anybody that wanted … BERGE: Flood relief is what you were doing?

HITE: Flood relief yeah. So we fed then until the water came all the way from the river all over Broadway come right up from within fifty feet of our cook shack. 53:00BERGE: What were the other C.C.C. people doing when you all were feeding?

HITE: Well they had… BERGE: Filling sand bags or something?

HITE: Sandbagging and running motor boats going all over that area bringing back—bringing the water refugees out of the town. They didn’t want to move.

BERGE: Did you do a lot of emergency stuff like fires and … UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: They fought millions of fires.

BERGE: Yeah I know that, but when there are an emergency they would use them like the army?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Yeah.

HITE: Oh, absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: We did lots of things like Paducah that he is talking about. I was in Company 3460 at ( ) State Park but before I got here this was before my time. But there was a black 4497 ( ) they sent all them black boys to Paducah. See their camp was ( ) they brought two hundred people from Paducah and ( ).

BERGE: Oh, while the 54:00program was going on. Oh, do you remember those black C.C.C. guys he is talking about?

HITE: A few. I remember a few of them, yeah. ‘Cause now, I am not prejudiced or anything, the black C.C.C. boys were not too well liked.

BERGE: Oh, I am sure.

HITE: Yeah.

BERGE: But you remember seeing them?

HITE: Oh, sure, sure. Now you were wondering how did they get those refugees out of there? Well the C.C.C. boys the Coast Guards too worked together. Running boats as fast as they could up and down the street from the river all the way back out to Broadway and to Highway Forty-Five. The ( ) even my wife, she was running a typewriter. Typing the names as they were coming out to go over to Mayfield somewhere.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

HITE: But 55:00anyway we fed them; it got to the point where we fed at least eight thousand people a day. You know, coming through there and where the … BERGE: What about the storm? How long did this last?

HITE: It went on until, let’s see—January thirty-seven—January, February … UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Till March.

HITE: Till March. About ninety to one hundred days into the New Year. Then the water began—had gone down out of the camps. Then they started cleaning and steam cleaning and washing our barracks out and everything.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

HITE: And finally we moved back in there in thirty-seven; and I stayed another year there and then I completely cut loose from the CC’s.

BERGE: What did you do after that?

HITE: Well, I got married. I went to St. Louis 56:00and I got a job with an electric company in St. Louis. So I stayed with them for forty-two years. Never changed jobs, with this electric company, made good money, saved it, retired and that’s it.

BERGE: Let me ask you, what in your experience with the C.C.C., do you think, had the longest lasting influence in your life?

HITE: Well, let me tell you. Always in the back of my mind—you probably now—you—I did not go to the Army, because the company that I was with got me a deferment every time Uncle Sam looked for me.

BERGE: Was that the electric company?

HITE: The electric company. We made –we made 57:00an alternator and a generator tester and I had—I was making these alternators, they come in eighty volts of DC output and they come with a hundred and twenty-two thirty volts AC.

BERGE: Hum-hum.

HITE: And we had a company that was buying them and sending them to Ala—Alamos New Mexico.

BERGE: Alaminos?

HITE: Alaminos, New Mexico. We didn’t have the slightest idea what they were doing, but they were using so many of those.

BERGE: For the A Bomb?

HITE: Yeah, but listen nobody ever heard. Do you know what? That was the biggest surprise of my life when they dropped that Atom Bomb.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

HITE: Los Alamos, that’s where it was. Los Alamos, New Mexico. ‘Cause I had a man come there and witness 58:00tests of some of my testing to be sure that it was exactly—it was a flat compound output. Put a full load on it, it wouldn’t drop—not a half a volt! Put two hundred per cent volt on it, it would drop one volt, that was how flat it was.

BERGE: Hum-hum. Yeah.

HITE: It was so—had to be just that or he wouldn’t accept it. If it didn’t do that they would have to pull it apart and put shims in it to make a closer air gap, then it would come up and make it flat.

BERGE: ( ) the C.C.C.?

HITE: What?

BERGE: I ask about the C.C.C., what do you think was the biggest influence of the C.C.C. in your life?

HITE: Well— BERGE: In addition to the fact that it got you through the depression, and gave you something to do.

HITE: Well, I was aggregated that after World War II, 59:00that the Republicans didn’t revise it again, because if it hadn’t been for the C.C.C. we could have lost the damn war. I know that for a fact, because the C.C.C. boys knew how to train the men. The rookies and the green-horns, that went into the army and was drafted and went across the … BERGE: I’m from northeast Pennsylvania, all the C.C.C. camps up there involved in fighting, what they call the Gypsy Moth infestation … HITE: A Gypsy what?

BERGE: Gypsy Moth, you know that attack the pine trees, and all they did was go into the woods and they had creosote—they had burlap rags and they would dip them in creosote and they would put them around the trunk of every tree in northeastern Pennsylvania to stop that. That’s literally what they did ( ).

HITE: Well, ok … BERGE: ( ) but that was the main 60:00… HITE: Well, I agree, I agree when it’s a thing like that, but another thing that the C.C.C. boys--work—not only did it improve the conditions of the country, but it made us know how to do. Gave us discipline. How to mind.

BERGE: You know another thing--let me ask you ( ) in here what do you think that they—it was kind of interesting because even though—like they had them set up in gangs to work ( ); there still was a lot of individual initiative. Because like C.C.C. boys had to figure out themselves how to do things. You know they didn’t tell you how to do every little job, they gave you a job to do and you had to do it.

HITE: Yes, they—they—the boss—ninety-nine per cent of the bosses let you use your judgment.

BERGE: Some of those didn’t know how to do it either. You know … HITE: And the C.C.C. boys, they got real smart. 61:00They knew exactly how to do anything; like to stop an erosion.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

HITE: We knew how to do that, sure. I watched them work on that. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: ( ) the armed forces, if it hadn’t been for the C.C.C., a lot of boys were not ( ) physical ( ).

HITE: That is true.

BERGE: That is true they ( ) the C.C.C..

HITE: Absolutely. Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: ( ) how the young people ( ) projection ( ) help operations.

HITE: So now, before we bring this, wind this down, I still want to get back to one point to you about this John Hearn.

BERGE: Yeah, that guy you had trouble with?

HITE: He hated me like a blue passion and I did the same to him.

BERGE: ( )?

HITE: Why sure. Sure, he turned out to be a good friend of mine. But what I’m going to tell you what happened now.

BERGE: Ok.

HITE: I 62:00was down in Harlan town on a Sunday morning and I was standing out in front of the ( ) Grand Theatre and John Hearn comes walking across the street like a big old German Shepard dog after me. He said, “ I thought you were supposed to be on KP today? I had you on KP for this week end.” HITE: And I said, “listen John”, I said, “there is no rule says that I can’t hire somebody to pull my KP.” BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: Yeah, he says, “you are a little snotty something from western Kentucky.” And I said, “well,”. So I just got where I couldn’t, couldn’t stand that. And I was standing up on the curb and he was standing down into the street. And that put me about eight inches up and I was looking him right 63:00straight in the eye, because I would have to look up at him. But I was up and looking him in the eye and it was just something it seemed like my heart began to get in my head, and you know what—he was like a dog growling at me and would you believe it that I struck him with my right hand. I knocked that son-of-a-gun out. He straightened out on that street just like that.

BERGE: He wasn’t expecting it either, was he?

HITE: Nooo. No. I tell you I thought I had killed him. I started looking for some help.

BERGE: What did you do after you hit him?

HITE: What did I do? Let me tell you I skedaddled, after that, you better believe it.

BERGE: What happened when you saw him again?

HITE: Hey he was as cool as a cucumber, he loved me. He come up in the kitchen, 64:00he put his arms around me—some of the boys—his pals said, “hey John, look at that face of yours.” (laughter) I want to tell you Mr. Berge, if there is a fella here today, if there is a man here today, Charlie Skaggs from up there in Harlan town, I want you to meet him and he will tell you, and verify exactly what I said.

BERGE: Well, if you see him, you run him down here and … HITE: I’ll do it. I’ll do it.

BERGE: Well I tell you I really appreciated you coming by here and telling me—let me ask you one more thing—we have sort of run out of time, but let me ask you one more thing. When I ask you Mr. ( ) a while ago about boxing, you were doing something over there, so did you do boxing?

HITE: Listen, Benny Crawford was the Mess Sergeant when I was the First Cook. And he told me, 65:00he says, “one day, somebody ( ) Cowboy Strunk.” He was about two sizes larger than me, which is like a—I’d be a eight and he would be a nine size. He was a large man. Cowboy Strunk always teased me, he said, “I’m going to beat the hell out of you some of these days Hite.” I thought—well he had me kind of nervous, if anybody says anything like that every time he seen me I think he must have something against me.

BERGE: Yeah.

HITE: So, Benny Crawford, he said to me one day in the kitchen, he said, “I’m going to get you out of this kitchen if you don’t beat his butt,” just like that. So, I said, “aw Benny I don’t pay no attention to him.” But it bothered me, so the next day Cowboy Strunk, come along and said something snotty to me and Benny Crawford said, “ we’ll see you in the Rec Hall at six-thirty this evening. 66:00BERGE: Yeah. He’s talking for you , huh?

HITE: He’s talking for me. And said, “Hite said he was going to put the gloves on with you and he was going to knock you out.” Just like that see. I said, “Benny keep quiet, I ain’t going to do that.” “Yes, you are too.” So word got around, Hite and Cowboy Strunk are … BERGE: Going to fight.

HITE: Hite’s going to fight tonight. I’ll never forget it. So about six-thirty in the Rec Hall the whole two hundred and sixty men it looked to me like, man they were standing wall to wall, with a square circle you know—ah not a circle—but a square for the ring. And old Benny brought in two pairs of gloves. He pitched the Second Lieutenant a pair and said put them on Cowboy Strunk and Benny laced them on my hands. 67:00And I ( ) you could make a fist in there, it felt like a ball.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

HITE: So they got over there and they said shake hands. I wouldn’t to shake his hand you know. I was just ( ) mean. I wouldn’t shake his damn hand. So it ( ) he hit at mean you know and I ducked down and I am telling you I swung a couple of times and I finally swung a right haymaker and I knocked that son-of-a-bitch out too.

BERGE: Yeah?

HITE: Sure did. (laughter) And from then on Cowboy Strunk was my friend.

BERGE: Was that the only time you boxed with the gloves?

HITE: Never again did I put them on. Nooo. No more, I don’t want no part of that ( ) the next time. Third time would be … BERGE: Well I sure want to thank you for coming in and talking with us. I appreciate it and we learned a good bit from talking with you.

HITE: Do you think—let me ask you—do you think I could get 68:00a little—get this on tape?

BERGE: Yeah. I will send a copy to you.

HITE: Ok. I want to tell you why I have some expensive brothers—pretty wealthy. And they are going to come up and we are going to make a picture ( ) of all the Hite and ( ) family. They got the family tree ready now.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah. We will send it to you.

HITE: All right.

BERGE: Yeah. We have your address. Thank you very much.

END OF SIDE TWO TAPE ONE HITE END OF INTERVIEW