Oral History Interview with Harold Leroy Okey

WILLIAM H. BERGE: The following is an unrehearsed tape interview with Mr. Harold Okey of Shively Kentucky. The interview is conducted at Cumberland Falls State Park on February 16, 1990, by William Berge for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. Mr. Okey, I sure want to thank you for coming down, coming down all the way to Corbin this week end to let us interview you it is really a help. We are learning a lot of things from this. Let us start off by you telling me your full name and where you were born and when you were born.

HAROLD LEROY OKEY: My name is Harold Okey, I was born in Allendale Illinois in 1912.

BERGE: Allendale?

OKEY: Illinois.

BERGE: Ok. Your middle name is Leroy?

OKEY: Leroy, that’s right.

BERGE: What was your father’s name? 1:00OKEY: Clemons Leroy Okey.

BERGE: Spell it OKEY: C-l-e-m-o-n-s. Clemons.

BERGE” What did he do?

OKEY: He was a refinery worker in the oil business.

BERGE: Where was he from?

OKEY: He was from Ohio.

BERGE: Ok. Your father was from Ohio. What was your mother’s maiden name?

OKEY: Harrington.

BERGE: First name?

OKEY: Cecil. C-e-c-i-l.

BERGE: Cecil Harrington Okey. Where was she from?

OKEY: She was from Allendale Illinois. That is where… BERGE: You and she are from the same town then.

OKEY: Yeah. She was born there and I was born there. And my mother and father met in the oil fields. There was oil fields up around Allendale and Mt. Carmel, Illinois, up through there.

BERGE: Where did you go to school?

OKEY: I went to grade school 2:00in Allendale… BERGE: You remember the name of the school?

OKEY: No, I don’t. Then I went to Baltimore, Maryland—my daddy went there—and I finished my grade school there. My daddy was a traveling man in the oil business. Then we moved back to Lawrenceville, Illinois, then from Lawrenceville, Illinois, we moved to Louisville, Kentucky.

BERGE: Did you go to high school?

OKEY: Yeah: I went to high school in Lawrenceville:.

BERGE: Did you graduate from high school?

OKEY: No, I finished the first, third—I mean… BERGE: The third year in high school. Like your junior year. Yeah.

OKEY: Yeah.

BERGE: And then what did you do?

OKEY: Well, we moved right after that, we moved to Louisville.

BERGE: And you didn’t go to school after that.

OKEY: I didn’t go to school and… BERGE: You probably would have finished… OKEY: Well, I did too, I take that back, I went to one year in Male School… BERGE: In Male High?

OKEY: In Male High in Louisville. 3:00And then after I got out of… BERGE: I bet if you hadn’t moved around so much you would have known everybody and stayed in school, probably. It is just too easy to quit when you… OKEY: Well, you know, when you get so old you think you know it all and (laughs)… BERGE: Do you remember what year would be your last year in school?

OKEY: Well, let’s see, I was—we were married… BERGE: About twenty-eight or twenty-nine, was it?

OKEY: Something like that, yeah.

BERGE: When you left school, what did you do?

OKEY: Well, I tried to get a job. And back in those days you didn’t get jobs unless you… BERGE: Knew somebody.

OKEY: Knew somebody. And I really, I got just part time work. I worked at Ford Motors, for about, oh, a year. Maybe a year and one-half, something like that. And then a… BERGE: Were you already married then?

OKEY: No. And then, that a—I was going 4:00to say that was when I met my wife. Then we got married and I continued working down there. Eventually got laid off and then is when the CCC… BERGE: Oh, so you got laid off right at the beginning of the depression then.

OKEY: Right.

BERGE: In the early thirties probably, yeah. Were you married then?

OKEY: Huh?

BERGE: Were you married then?

OKEY: No, we wasn’t right then.

BERGE: You got married after you were in the CCC?

OKEY: Yeah. I went in the CCC in thirty-three and we were married in thirty-four.

BERGE: Ok. Now let’s go back a ways now. Do you remember how you first heard about the CCC?

OKEY: Yeah. That is easy. I can really tell you that because I was running with a fella, Tom Bedell, I don’t guess you care about whose named… BERGE: Yeah, that is ok OKEY: And, a, he and I we went up to join the Navy… BERGE: In Louisville, you mean? 5:00OKEY: Well, there—Tom took his physical and they passed him—and when I went to take mine, I was color blind and they wouldn’t accept me. So Tom says, “well, I’m not going in if you don’t go in.” So I said, “that’s fine.” So we walked down the street and we saw the CCC and we decided to enlist in the CCC.

BERGE: You were looking for something to do really.

OKEY: We were looking for something to do and something you know… BERGE: Where to get meals and…(laughter) OKEY: And, a, so that is how we came to the CCC. I was sent down here to Cumberland Falls and he was sent to California.

BERGE: But you went in on the same day.

OKEY: We went in the same day the same time. (laughs) BERGE: Now tell me when you went in there, was it like an Army or Navy enlistment place?

OKEY: Well ours was at the court house.

BERGE: Did you already know about the CCC?

OKEY: I had read it, but I didn’t—you know a young person like that you don’t pay too much attention to it. 6:00I knew it was the Civilian Conservation Corps…( actually he said consecration corps.) BERGE: Yeah. You knew what it was.

OKEY: Yeah. But as far as an idea of what was going on I didn’t know really.

BERGE: So when you went in there, did they give you a physical?

OKEY: Yeah. We, a well—now right then they shipped us to Fort Knox, Kentucky. Then we were given… BERGE: You mean like that day?

OKEY: Well, two days later or something like that. You know what I mean. They give you time to straighten out.

BERGE: Yeah. Yeah.

OKEY: And a… BERGE: Did they tell you there what it was going to be like?

OKEY: Oh yeah.

BERGE: What did they tell you?

OKEY: They told us we were going to make fire trails and go anywhere they needed work done. You know, to be done in the forestry… BERGE: So you knew you were going into the woods then.

OKEY: Yeah. We knew we were going to be in Forestry in some division. Now we didn’t know what at the time. And a… BERGE: What did you think when they told you about the money?

OKEY: Well, I thought it was a good deal, really, because… BERGE: They gave you room and board?

OKEY: That was, they said it was thirty dollars and they sent twenty-five to your home and they 7:00give you five dollars a month.

BERGE: Huh-huh.

OKEY: But, a, when they sent us to Fort Knox we were given a physical and then I guess some basic training. They gave us all a sixteen pound sledge-hammer and sent us out on an airport to make little ones out of big ones. (laughs) BERGE: Out there at Fort Knox?

OKEY: At Fort Knox.

BERGE: I bet a lot of guys wanted to quit. (laughter) OKEY: Yeah. They worked u pretty good. They sent us out there in the morning. They give us box lunches at dinner time.

BERGE: So you weren’t really training, or anything, you were just out there working.

OKEY: We were out there toughening ourselves up really, because we—well when we went in we were just a bunch of skinny kids, really, you know.

BERGE: Did you know many of the—was that boy the only other one you knew?

OKEY: Yeah. That’s the only one I knew and after I got in there I had to learn friends—you know. Then. But, they sent him on to California, I didn’t see him for another year. 8:00BERGE: But you went through the same training there—I mean you were still with him when you were breaking rocks and everything I guess.

OKEY: Oh, yeah. I was with the group that came down to Camp 509, down here… BERGE: Well, just let me ask you something, I want to get this clear because, I don’t think that everybody I have talked to has had this the same way. When you were up there at Fort Knox, did you have your choice of where you would go?

OKEY: Not that I know of. I didn’t have no choice ,no. I was assigned to this one company and that was it.

BERGE: Hum-huh. You had no idea where you were going to go when you were up there.

OKEY: No. I had no idea.

BERGE: And he didn’t have any idea where he was going to go either did he?

OKEY: No, he didn’t.

BERGE: Did you think it was funny when you got in different companies?

OKEY: Yeah. I did, I mean we thought we would be together. We had been buddies for years, you know. And 9:00here we go to join the Navy together and can’t get in; and then we join the CCC… BERGE: He might as well have joined the Navy then.

OKEY: Yeah, he goes one way and I go the other, you know. It was odd how it came out, but I guess that was the way the count went, you know.

BERGE: Did they give you uniforms and stuff as soon as you got there? At Fort Knox?

OKEY: Yeah, huh-huh, there was Khakis with a black—thin black tie.

BERGE: Now when you went into the service, were your folks still living in Louisville?

OKEY: Yeah.

BERGE: Did you get to go in to see then from Fort Knox? Did you get to go home?

OKEY: Yeah. I got to go home one time before we went—was shipped out to the Cumberland Falls.

BERGE: How long were you there before you went to Cumberland Falls? Do you know?

OKEY: Oh, about two weeks, something like that.

BERGE: Now, when is this we are talking about, nineteen thirty-three?

OKEY: Yeah. Nineteen thirty-three. I went in, in May nineteen thirty-three. 10:00BERGE: Huh-huh. Did you—when you came down here—I wonder how long the CCC was going on when you went in, do you know?

OKEY: We were one of the first—to come down here. When we came down here we were one of the first.

BERGE: It really just started then, didn’t it?

OKEY: When they brought us down here there wasn’t nothing but a big woods, sitting over there. And they said that’s it boys, there it is. (laughs) BERGE: Did you sleep in tents and everything did you?

OKEY: Huh?

BERGE: Did you stay in tents?

OKEY: Oh, yeah we slept in tents. In fact, the group that went out—I just stayed six months—and the group that went out, we never really got to stay in the barracks. The barracks was being worked on; but we were still in the tents when we went home. I never stayed in any of the barracks.

BERGE: When you came down—or when you were still there in say, up at Fort Knox going through the introduction, or what ever--Mr. 11:00Fuller, the man that was in here before you, he said one of the things that might have been better would have been, if they had given a little more training and stuff. Particularly forest fires and ( ) but he said probably they didn’t know anything about it, they had just started the program and they were just getting people… OKEY: I really believe that is it and as far as, you know, as going out on that airport and everything, they were just trying to get us physically fit for anything that might happen later on. (laughter) BERGE: Tell me this, did any of the people kind of wash out there or did everybody keep… OKEY: No everybody that came there—I mean it wasn’t grueling.

BERGE: Of course, one thing about it, most of the boys that joined knew they were going to be working. They knew they weren’t… OKEY: We knew it wasn’t going to be no picnic.

BERGE: Yeah. You knew from day one that there would be work. But I imagine they told you that when you enlisted didn’t they?

OKEY: Yeah. They told us that we would run into hard problems if we went into the forest. 12:00BERGE: When you went in there and enlisted, were there civilians who enlisted you? Do you remember?

OKEY: Yeah, as far as I can remember. I mean there wasn’t no Army officer or anything like that.

BERGE: What kind of clothes did they give you?

OKEY: Huh, Khakis with a… BERGE: Kind of like army uniforms?

OKEY: Right. They didn’t have no wrap leggins’ or anything like that, they were just straight pants and shirts. And one of those Khaki jackets, you know.

BERGE: Do you remember, did they give you any pep talks or speeches, did they talk to you… OKEY: Well, we were given a talk on girls you know, and what to do if you had relations with them… BERGE: Just like the Army.

OKEY: Yeah. Just like the Army.

BERGE: Well, that is interesting.

OKEY: And what to do, and… BERGE: So they did have that kind of stuff.

OKEY: If you did, when you came back to go see the doctor. 13:00BERGE: Oh, really?

OKEY: Yeah. Yeah.

BERGE: Well, that is interesting. Gee, I didn’t know that. Let me make a note here I want to ask you about something later. Ah, when you were getting ready to come down here did they tell you where you were going? Up there at Fort Knox, did you know you were coming down here when you left there.

OKEY: Yeah. When were left there we knew we was coming.

BERGE: Did you get to go home and tell your folks where you were going?

OKEY: Oh yeah, yeah, they knew. I went home—I say--I think it was two days, I think we had two days to get back.

BERGE: Those of you who were from Louisville had a little bit better deal on that than people from further away.

OKEY: Yeah.

BERGE: Was everyone there from Kentucky?

OKEY: As far as my knowledge yes. I wouldn’t say for sure, but I mean I think most of them was from the Louisville area.

BERGE: That went there, yeah.

OKEY: That went to Cumberland.

BERGE: Of course, this, this, a… OKEY: Now this one fella I understand… BERGE: He was from Barbourville.

OKEY: Yeah. Now he came out of Barbourville there.

BERGE: Yeah, he said that he went up there—now he was there after you I think. I don’t think he was in that first bunch. 14:00Because he said there were buildings here when he came.

OKEY: Oh, no there weren’t no buildings here when we came.

BERGE: But he said that he and another fella from Barbourville went there, and that fella died here. The other boy that came with him, with pneumonia or something like that. I will ask him later on when everybody’s together, I’ll see if they remember that.

OKEY: That is one of the reasons I think we really came—the group that came down was all Louisvillians, you know because, later on our company was, I think there was better than two hundred people in that company.

BERGE: They came from other places then.

OKEY: Yeah, after… BERGE: But the first that you remember, the first bunch of you were all from Louisville.

OKEY: Yeah. Far as I know… BERGE: You remember the train trip down and all that stuff?

OKEY: Well, I’m trying to think it was a train trip. I don’t know whether it was a train trip or a bus, or truck. I think it was a truck.

BERGE: You mean all the way to Fort Knox.

OKEY: Yeah: BERGE: Ok.

OKEY: I think we came down on trucks. I know 15:00we did, because when they come down , you know they come down in the trucks with spaces, that you know, went down through there.

BERGE: So you came down here and got here and they said there it is.

OKEY: That’s it BERGE: Do you remember that first day, what you did?

OKEY: (laughing) Yeah, I looked at that and said, “Oh, no.” BERGE: What did you do?

OKEY: It was a—down in the valley… BERGE: There was a farm out down there, wasn’t there?

OKEY: Well, there was an old building I wouldn’t call it a farm house you know and they said, “well, here it is boys, start pitching your tents.” I know we were in trucks, because the trucks were carrying the tents.

BERGE: Did they tell you where to pitch the tents and everything? Was it kind of like the Army?

OKEY: Well, we kind of made an alley. You know, on this side and on this side… BERGE: When you got there who was in charge?

OKEY: There was a Captain and a… BERGE: This is an Army officer?

OKEY: Yes. A Captain and a Lieutenant. 16:00BERGE: Were there any Sergeants?

OKEY: Well… BERGE: Do you remember that?

OKEY: I don’t know, but I do know there was a Captain and a Lieutenant.

BERGE: Where did they live?

OKEY: I don’t know. They were from Fort Knox.

BERGE: Did they live in tents, I mean… OKEY: They had to, there wasn’t no place else to live.

BERGE: Where did you get water and food and stuff like that, do you remember?

OKEY: Our water was in great big canvas bags, you know, regular Army canvas bags, like you ( ). And our food, we would go in—ah, we would, I say we--I didn’t go at the time—we’d go into Corbin and get food. The mess Sergeant and our mess Sergeant I guess we’d call him, our cook, I’ll put it that way, would go into Corbin and get… BERGE: And take people with them and get it. Do you remember 17:00that first couple of days? Do you remember when you started building things or anything?

OKEY: Well, it was rough work, not being used to working like that, you know, just coming right out of the city, like that—in fact you didn’t realize there was country like this around, you know.

BERGE: Yes, this was something new to you.

OKEY: Yeah. It was an experience. Really to come down in here and, I think, for the people down in this area it was an experience to see us down here because… BERGE: You were different than anything they had seen too.

OKEY: Yeah. In fact, we sent out from that camp—there were two or three side camps. One was a Barbourville and one was at Pineville. Well I was one of the ones, (clears throat), pardon me, that was sent to Barbourville and we lived in tents over there too. 18:00BERGE: How long did you stay there?

OKEY: I stayed in Barbourville quite a while. I say quite a while, I think maybe a month or two, and then I went to Pineville too. We were shipped from… BERGE: You weren’t here all that much really were you?

OKEY: No, I wasn’t at the main camp here at 509, I was here oh, maybe a month.

BERGE: Yeah, so really the month you were here they weren’t doing any work here they were just setting up the camp, weren’t they?

OKEY: That’s right. Then after I served over in Barbourville and, oh, a Pineville, then I got shipped back here and then we started building, fireplaces—not fireplaces—barbeques and stuff like that. ( ) I went out… BERGE: What kind of work did you do mostly here, do you remember?

OKEY: We just laid bricks and stuff like that and later on 19:00I got out of the—I got lucky and got to be the Captain’s orderly. (laughs).

BERGE: Oh, yeah, what did you do?

OKEY: I went with him in town and we picked up the mail, and supplies and… BERGE Rode around with him?

OKEY: Stuff like that, uh-huh. Then kept his tent in good shape, you know, made beds… BERGE: Yeah.

OKEY: You know what an orderly is.

BERGE: Yeah, you sort of learned a lot listening to him.

OKEY: Oh, yeah. To get back… BERGE: Do you remember his name?

OKEY: No, I can’t think of his name, but he was a swell fella, you know what I mean as far as—he knew how to treat the men, he knew what it was all about. But getting back to these people I think it was an experience for them because we took these army trucks back in to Barbourville and places like that and those people back in those hills, I never saw people live like that, in those hills and hollows; and they never saw any army trucks, 20:00they never saw any trucks. So I think, all in all I think it was a good deal for us and for the people of this area.

BERGE: Yeah, yeah, that is interesting. Do you remember any kind of an educational program down here? Did they have anything like that or was it just work?

OKEY: It was just work really, I mean they didn’t have no time for education.

BERGE: Did you have any dealings with forest fires?

OKEY: No, I was fortunate. The big fire that they talk about, that I missed, was over in Williamsburg, I think.

BERGE: The ( ).

OKEY: Yeah, I think it was and… BERGE: That was a bad fire wasn’t it?

OKEY: Yeah. From what I understand it was, but I was back here then and I didn’t get on the call, but I think that everybody that… BERGE: That went there remembers.

OKEY: That was available, yeah. I’d say Williamsburg, Side Camp, and Pineville and some of ours went over there too, I think to help fight it, but I 21:00was fortunate. I was—I had made a few fire lanes through here you know, made a few fire lanes, over there.

BERGE: What, you remember the men that were in charge of the work gangs and that kind of stuff?

OKEY: Well, they were more or less, I’d say, Corporals, you know… BERGE: Were they in the Army or were they people with the CCC?

OKEY: No, they were CCC.

BERGE: Ok.

OKEY: Like, well, I think Jack was… BERGE: Was one of those, huh?

OKEY: Was one of those, yeah. Well, a lead man, like you would call a lead man… BERGE: Yeah. Ok.

OKEY: Or I would call him a Corporal, you know… BERGE: Yeah, I know what you are talking about.

OKEY: Say he had a squad, you know, of eight men, or something like that. But they were CCC men and they were supervised by this Captain and… BERGE: And they in turn supervised the people… OKEY: They were given their orders by the Captain and the Lieutenant what they wanted to do that day and they would relay 22:00it to their people.

BERGE: In a camp—now let’s say I don’t know anything about this—and I really, don’t, but what was a typical day like? How did you get up, what would you do when you got up, you know tell me… OKEY: Well, you would wake up to reveille in the morning. They had a bugle, and they had a great big microphone set on a post and the bugler would blow into that.

BERGE: What time of day was this? Do you have any idea?

OKEY: Oh, around six o’ clock in the morning. He would blow reveille and we would get up and get washed and shaved. Then you would go to chow. Then when you come back from, chow you had time to go back and ( ) wash your teeth and make your bunk, or something like that; then you were given your assignment. Then… BERGE: Did you have a good place to take a shower?

OKEY: I’m coming to that.

BERGE: Ok.

OKEY: No 23:00I wouldn’t say it was a good place to take a shower, ‘cause there was no shower. Then when you came back that night, ‘course you was all dirty and everything, you would hike from that point down to the Cumberland River. We had trails down to the Cumberland River, and on your way down there you would see Copper Heads and Rattlers and everything else. And when you got down to the river, say six of you went down there, three would stand out on the bank and shoo the snakes away and when they got bathed, you went and bathed. I mean, you know you had to watch out because there was a few snakes and such in that country down there. There still is, for that matter.

BERGE: Yeah, yeah. Did they build any showers or anything after you were there?

OKEY: Well no ( ) the barracks. No I wasn’t here when the showers got, ‘cause as I said, I left before the barracks, was—but they did get showers 24:00in. And we had a funny incident; we had a four-holer, with a canvas around it.

BERGE: Yeah.

OKEY: And this fella was in there sittin’ on the hole and a wildcat jumped in on the other end of him. He flew out of there and went up and got either the Captain or the Lieutenant, I don’t know which it was, and he came down there and shot the wildcat.

BERGE: Do you remember that?

OKEY: Huh? Oh, yeah, I remember that. Later on it was stuffed and mounted in the barracks. You know… BERGE: It was a historical thing, huh?

OKEY: Yeah. But that stuck in my mind. I can just imagine that poor fella a sittin’ on thing, you know…[laughs] BERGE: What did you all do for recreation?

OKEY: Oh, well we’d go—we’d come down to the falls 25:00and—now when you was in the Side Camp, we wasn’t too far from, we were out of Barbourville, and then Pineville, but we’d a, maybe four or five of us would go into… BERGE: Town.

OKEY: Jericho Tennessee… BERGE: Jellico… OKEY: Jellico, yeah. And they had picture shows in there. Of course, you did a lot of flirting, you know, I mean, we… BERGE: How did the girls treat you all?

OKEY: Fine. We went… BERGE: Did you go to any dances or anything?

OKEY: Well, they, those girls were as curious of us as we were of them. You know, the girls would come over to our camp, the side camp. Now, I don’t think it was so much, in the main camp you know; because the side camps were more available.

BERGE: They were littler and closer to… OKEY: Yeah. They would come down, but, a, this 26:00one night in particular, this girl and I went to the show and there were a couple of girls sitting there, so naturally we got to talking to them you know, and we asked if we could take them home. And they said, “yeah”. We said, “well, where do you live?” They said, “Oh, just over that there hill.” Well I think we got out of the show, it was kind of early and that there hill run into the next one, I think we got back about four o’ clock in the morning, getting over that, there hill. [laughs] Wasn’t no monkey-shines going on either. When we took the girls home—well we stayed at their house a while really.

BERGE: Huh-huh.

OKEY: They took us in and introduced us to their daddy, and he opened a great a big pot-bellied stove, reached in there and pulled out a jug, a little moonshine, set ‘er down there and said, “You boys care for a drink?” BERGE: Was it any good?

OKEY: Huh?

BERGE: Was it any good?

OKEY: Naw, you couldn’t get past that first drink. [laughter] 27:00Oh, you put that jug up to your nose, you know, and ( ) that first smell of that, Ohhh, God.

BERGE: Were they nice to you?

BERGE: Yeah, they were really nice. They invited us back. I think we went back to see them later on, you know, not every week or so.

BERGE: Tell me this, do you remember any—was there much drinking in the camp?

OKEY: Well, once in a while if you run into a still.

BERGE: Where were they?

OKEY: All over the mountains. [laughs] I remember one still in particular they run into. They brought back a barrel or a half a barrel or whatever it was.

BERGE: What did they do with the stills when they found them? Did they break them up?

OKEY: They broke them up, but they salvaged what they wanted. You know, everybody got some, but this time they brought it back and 28:00we had quite a party that night.

BERGE: Prohibition was over about that time, do you remember getting any beer?

OKEY: No, Huh-huh.

BERGE: They didn’t have anything like that in the camps, huh?

OKEY: No, no there was nothing like that no beer. The only beer that was in there was what I brought down and somebody stole it from me.

BERGE: Were there any girls around here?

OKEY: Well, not too many I think the girls were more or less tourists, you know.

BERGE: Did you ever see any tourists, I was going to ask you about that?

OKEY: Oh, yes, you would see people around here.

BERGE: In the park?

OKEY: You know, they’d come down for the falls and we were working right in this area in here, right down in here. Making those benches, that you sit on—stone benches—and everything we made was out of the creek bed, you know. I mean your fireplaces, and I keep calling them fireplaces, bar-b-ques.

BERGE: I know what you are talking about.

OKEY: But, a… 29:00BERGE: It was all local materiel?

OKEY: Yeah.

BERGE: The park guests talk with you and everything?

OKEY: Oh, yes, they would come over and would want to know how you were doing and if you were enjoying yourself and…yeah, they… BERGE: Did the people know anything about the CCC or were they—did they ask you about that?

OKEY: Yes, they would ask us what our duties were, you know, and we told them… BERGE: People were interested in it weren’t they?

OKEY: Yeah, they were, they were really interested. That, I believe was one of the best deals, that any of the Presidents have ever thought about.

BERGE: Yeah, it was a wonderful thing wasn’t it OKEY: Personally, I think something like this, right now, with all the crying and the… BERGE: Yeah, it would really be good for people who haven’t got work, wouldn’t it?

OKEY: That’s right. It would take a lot of these kids off the streets and learn them, I mean, there still quite a bit of country here that they could work in 30:00or something like that.

BERGE: Do you ever remember going across the river?

OKEY: Oh, yes. You used to wade across the river.

BERGE: Later on they had a basket going across the river, do you remember that?

OKEY: No.

BERGE: Ok. You did wade across the river?

OKEY: Yeah, we had… BERGE: What was across the river?

OKEY: What? Oh, just another road, I guess just a continuation of this road. You forded right down here somewhere, I don’t know… BERGE: Not too far from you camp was it?

OKEY: No. But you forded the road. The government truck would go there, somebody would go in front of it you know. There was no bridge over the… BERGE: Did you all ever fish? Anybody ever fish?

OKEY: Oh, yes, they would come down and try but, they, well, they would catch a few, you know.

BERGE: Did you ever do anything like that?

OKEY: Well I fished one time, but I didn’t catch nothing.

BERGE: Did they have anything like baseball or basketball?

OKEY: Oh, yeah, around the camp you know, we 31:00had recreation like that. I mean I can remember baseball more than basketball, because really that terrain, wasn’t suitable for basketball, you know what I mean.

BERGE: Yeah, it was… OKEY: Yeah, and we’d have competitions.

BERGE: Did you play teams from anywhere else?

OKEY: No. Our team didn’t I’ll say that. I can’t see for anything past six months.

Now, what happened past that I… BERGE: Yeah, it may have become a little more organized after a while.

OKEY: Yeah, I think it was because, you know it was rough getting down here and getting settled and setting up those side camps. You know, because… BERGE: Do you, do you ever remember any dangerous work, besides the snakes I mean.

OKEY: Well, a, sometimes climbing those mountains, you know, you would come to a cliff where you put your 32:00fire trail through; you know, I mean if you’d a slipped on there. If you had been unfortunate enough to slip on a rock or something, you could have—that was about the only danger, outside of the animals and there were a lot of wild animals around there, there really was.

BERGE: I would bet it was scary for you guys from Louisville, you know.

OKEY: Oh, yeah, I mean--you know—but, a I lived on a farm up in Illinois for a while, but it wasn’t… BERGE: Rough like this.

OKEY: No, I thought, man this is going to be like the farm. It wasn’t nuthin’ like a farm you know. But, I mean it, I tell you that was an experience of my life. I don’t want to forget it because, I think that if were going to have something like that, it would be the greatest thing in the world.

BERGE: Let me ask you some other questions, kind of related to this. Did—was it—what did you think of the people you went with, were they a nice bunch of boys?

OKEY: Everyone of them was a swell bunch of fellas. Well we were all the same boat… BERGE: You all needed to work… OKEY: We all needed to work and we could use the money 33:00and it was sent home, and we had our five dollars… BERGE: Did your five dollars last you all month?

OKEY: Well, we didn’t have nothing to do. What would you do? You know.

BERGE: The guys that smoked cigarettes, did you buy them at the camp?

OKEY: Yeah. You could buy your candy bars and cigarettes and stuff like that… BERGE: You had a PX?

OKEY: But as far as I can remember, I think cigarettes were a dime a pack and a candy bar was a nickel, you know. You had coke there, you could have cokes. But I mean you really didn’t have—that five dollars would last you a month.

BERGE: Was the food good?

OKEY: Yeah, We had excellent food, I’ll say that, we really did.

BERGE: Plenty of it?

OKEY: We had plenty of it in the main camp there and both side camps. Our food was good and we had good cooks.

BERGE: Huh-huh. Did you have to pull KP?

OKEY: Nope. I was fortunate. [laughs] BERGE: ( ) told me that he thought they had guys that sort of like to do it.

OKEY: Well, 34:00evidently they did because I was never designated to do it.

BERGE: What was the best job you had? Working for that Captain?

OKEY: I’ll have to say yeah, that was the best job, but really I believe I enjoyed getting out.

BERGE: In the side camp?

OKEY: In the side camp and stuff like that.

BERGE: You were more free there wasn’t it?

OKEY: Yeah I was more free because here I was tied down, and he might have went into town—we left here in he morning at eight o’ clock, well we might not get back till say three or four o’ clock that afternoon. And he was running some girl there in Corbin [laughs] and I was on my own, I mean really.

BERGE: You mean that Captain.

OKEY: I was just all over Corbin, I was on my own.

BERGE: He could have fixed you up with her mother. [snide laughter] OKEY: Yeah, you know… 35:00BERGE: Where was he from? did you know?

OKEY: The only thing I knew, is that he came down from Knox, ah, Fort Knox.

BERGE: Fort Knox with you all. But he seemed like a pretty nice guy.

OKEY: He was a swell fella, well his Lieutenant was too, you know.

BERGE: Uh, when they were making those trails--I don’t know if they had made them yet when you were, maybe they weren’t around then—but you know there are those big, big stones for steps on those trails. Do you know where they got those?

OKEY: No, I guess… BERGE: That was after you were there probably.

OKEY: Yeah, they would—see what we did mostly was come down and clear. I would say the first six months we cleared this area, I mean you know, 509; the Williamsburg, then Pineville. Later on I know that over at Pineville, 36:00I know that they helped build that Pineville Lodge, over there at Pineville State Park.

BERGE: Oh, they did?

OKEY: Yeah. That was CCC, in fact, I think they have a museum over there that tells and shows what the CCC did.

END OF SIDE ONE TAPE ONE 18 S 1 BEGIN SIDE TWO TAPE ONE 18 S 1 BERGE: You probably remember this—would know this better than some of the others I talked to. Did the CCC and the WPA ever work in the same place?

OKEY: Not to my knowledge.

BERGE: You never did see any of the WPA around where you all were. I thought they might have used them around some of the… OKEY: No. Huh-uh. And later on I understand that some of the CCC 37:00helped build this lodge here too.

BERGE: A-huh. But that was after your time.

OKEY: Yep.

BERGE: Do you remember that Inn across the river?

OKEY: Way back on the other side, setting back about where that Holiday Inn is now or somewhere?

BERGE: Yeah. Huh-huh.

OKEY: I remember vaguely of there being a hotel back in there. But didn’t that burn?

BERGE: Yeah. I think so.

OKEY: I thought it burned too.

BERGE: Do you remember any fights or anything like that among the guys that lived there?

OKEY: Oh, once in a while.

BERGE: But not any big things.

OKEY: No. Once in while there would be a flare up, somebody, you know, would say something that would ruffle the feathers a little but they didn’t have any knock… BERGE: Did they have anything like movies for you?

OKEY: No.

BERGE: Did they have any electricity down there?

OKEY: No.

BERGE: What 38:00did you use for lights?

OKEY: Lanterns. Now this is when we first come down there. Later on they got--I understand that--electricity was run down there, you know. This rural electric came in.

BERGE: Who were your best friends here?

OKEY: Here? I never will forget, Peake was his name. And, a… BERGE: Where was he from?

OKEY: He was from Louisville, and he and I bummed around quite a bit… BERGE: Have you seen him since?

OKEY: Yes, I was getting around to it—named Jack--I knew Jack slightly because he was from the Shively area and I was from the Shively area.

BERGE: Yeah.

OKEY: And this ( ) one day--I worked with the Courier-( ) Times, newspaper. I was going down the hall and I saw this fella, and I thought that looks like Peake. And I went up—and he was working in the ( ) roto-gravure… 39:00BERGE: All those years.

OKEY: Yeah. well it had been quite a few years, because, let see, I worked for the Courier for about forty and one-half years, so—and I knew him before that but he wasn’t no more surprised to see me than I was to see him, I tell you. But when we got back to Louisville, now the bunch that I was with and went out at the same time; we formed a CCC club in Louisville and it was held in a club house next to a church. They had ( ) the church and this was probably a school house really, and we formed a club in there and we met once a month, in this club house, ex-CCC’s, you know.

BERGE: Yeah. I know what you are talking about.

OKEY: I knew quite a few people then, but I tell you my memory is not too good, you know, I am fifty-seven years, that’s a long time.

BERGE: That is interesting that… OKEY: But, then we had dances on Valentines Day, we throwed two or three dances just for the CCC members. We really enjoyed ourselves. It was more 40:00like a reunion every month, you know.

BERGE: Tell me this, why did you quit after six months.

OKEY: Oh, I don’t know, I signed up for it and I was going with the wife at the time, you know, and in fact, when I went back on furlough, you know, I went back to see her. My mother and daddy came here to see me when we were in camp. We were allowed to travel and one Forth of July we went back with another fella and myself, oh, Bedell, ( ) Bedell was his name. He was another pretty good friend of mine, he is dead now. We went back on the Fourth of July and I think, we more or less got the gate.

BERGE: Did you have a job to go to when you left here?

OKEY: No. But… BERGE: But you left really because you were going to get married, 41:00not because you… OKEY: But I did go back to the Ford. I worked at Ford in thirty-two and I worked at Fords for—no, I didn’t go work at Ford in thirty-two—thirty-four.

BERGE: The next year.

OKEY: Yeah, the next year because I went there and got on and then we got married. And then I worked for Ford until I was—in thirty-six—during the big flood, and then I got a job at the newspaper and I worked for the newspaper ever since.

BERGE; Until you retired.

OKEY: Till I retired.

BERGE: It’s a shame what has happened at the newspaper isn’t it?

OKEY: Awh, terrible I mean you know… BERGE: It was the greatest newspaper in the world… OKEY: It was, and I mean, those damn ( ) they really were—see they owned the newspaper, the Rotogravure, and the radio station. And they had—when I first went there, they had financial troubles they pert near lost WHS 42:00and stuff like that. We didn’t have the greatest salaries going, ‘course back then you know salaries wasn’t good. When I went to work there, I was making $14.75 a week and you worked until your work was finished. If it was forty hours it was forty and… BERGE: Where did you work when you first went there?

OKEY: I was a ( ) typer I when I first went there—to begin with—no I take that back—to begin with I went in as a porter. Then a ( ) typing opening came in and I applied for it and I got it. That was the ( ) typing department, they worked off the printers; would send us the hot bed and we would mold it for them off the hot bed into a form that we rolled into half turns, which in turn was sent down to the press room and printed on the presses. It was a lead form—a lead form. And I think that the CCC got me in shape for that, because 43:00in the ( ) type department we handled over, between three and four hundred tons of hot lead every day. From… BERGE: I bet you felt yourself get a lot stronger when you were with the CCC didn’t you?

OKEY: Oh I did. When I came out of the CCC I was in the best health. Of course, I am skinny now but I have—I will tell you about that I---when I came in, I think I weighed one thirty-five, one forty around there and when I went out I weighed the most I ever weighed in my life, I weighed one seventy. And I… BERGE: And solid muscle, huh?

OKEY: It wasn’t flab, it was muscle, you know.

BERGE: It was a healthy life too wasn’t it?

OKEY: It was real healthy. I mean it was—I advise any young person, you know, if they had an opportunity to get into anything like that to get into it.

BERGE: How long did you stay in that kind of work, with them, with that hot lead?

OKEY: Forty-one and one-half years. 44:00BERGE: Did you work in the same section all the time?

OKEY: Well, now, I said forth-one and one-half years; they were phasing out the hot lead when I left. Because I had my—I could either retire when they did away with that… BERGE: Or learn a new job.

OKEY: Or learn a new trade. And I had been there and I was sixty-five years old and I thought , that was kind of silly, because you know… BERGE: Yeah.

OKEY: And I went down and found out about my pension and my social security and I thought, well, I might as well go on out. Now, all their printing and stuff like that is—their printers—they photograph all that stuff and it is all masked on sheets and then that is photographed and then that is sent to… BERGE: A lot different job now.

OKEY: Oh, that is sent to a plastic plate; you know the size of a form? Then they put it on there, and then it goes to an etching machine and the letters are etched onto this plastic plate 45:00and then it is sent down to the press room, and they just take it and wrap it like that where—God, we lifted all that hot heavy lead for years, and years, and years. And we had to make base for our forms you know, for them to put their type on, well you maybe had a piece of base ( ) and then when you poured base, you poured ( ) of maybe a hundred pounds.

BERGE: Courier was just like a big family then wasn’t it?

OKEY: Oh, yeah, everybody knew everybody up there I mean –the printers and everything else and everybody was Union. And we were ( ) and everything else but the wages were comparable, I mean, the printers were a few bucks ahead of us, the presses were about equal to our salary, but I mean, it was a nice job, it really was.

BERGE: Yeah. Do you ever see the Binghams much?

OKEY: No, I see—well you know the old man Bingham is dead.

BERGE: No, I meant when you were working there.

OKEY: Oh, yeah, they were fine people. They would come by 46:00and ask you how you were doing. I mean, Gray Bingham Junior, he is a fine… BERGE: Yeah, one of my daughters worked for him. She is an attorney, she did some work for him.

OKEY: Yeah, he is a fine person. We liked theatre, and we’d go to the theatre quite a bit. And he would be in the theatre and we would be sitting up not too far from him, and in the intermission we’d go out and he would speak to you and ask you how you were doing and how everything was. I mean he wasn’t one of these people that snubbed his workers, ‘cause he knew we worked for our ( ). You know, but… BERGE: Well, I never heard anything bad about him.

OKEY: Yeah, I had a lot of good times with the CCC. Just like I was telling you , that Fourth of July you know, we went down this man and I--and my wife’s daddy made home brew—so he took a couple quarts of home brew and I took a couple quarts and we put them in our duffle bag, you know. We carried 47:00them things all the way back here you know, and there was a spring down there at the camp, and I thought I had hid my beer down there real good so nobody could find it, but when I went down there to get it, it was gone. (laughs) BERGE: You figure Jack Hardin got it?

OKEY: I don’t know who got it, but somebody knew… BERGE: (laughs) I’ll ask everybody this afternoon, did you ever steal any home brew out of there?

OKEY: No, but a, I mean it was just like that it was—I was mad because ( ) funny, I, I should have known somebody would get it… BERGE: In retrospect… OKEY: But what made me mad was carrying it all the way from home and somebody would take it.

BERGE: Yeah. And your buddy brought his all the way down too. There is a lot more questions I could ask you about this and I probably will later, because this afternoon when we are talking I think that there will some stuff that I will ask all of you and you know, just remind you of it; but you really think that it was a good experience for you?

OKEY: Oh, for me it has. Now, I don’t know how the rest of them feel 48:00about it, because I can’t speak for them, but personally, myself, it was an experience I will never forget. Well, I remember, sitting here talking to you, I remember a lot of things, come back to me that ordinarily you would just shove off, you know.

BERGE: Did you ever think about reenlisting for another six months?

OKEY: No. Not after you get married, you didn’t want to reenlist. You just think about getting married. And then I got my job, you know, at Fords and…well, I mean, if it came to the point where I… BERGE: Did you ever… OKEY: Could have I mean, or had to I would have.

BERGE: Did you—later on in life did you ever met other people that were in the CCC and talk to them about it?

OKEY: Oh, yeah, you know, like that Club we had we… BERGE: How long did that last, about ten years.?

OKEY: Yeah, and then they begin to drift off, you know, I mean, they get married and move away… BERGE: Went in the service, and the war, war came along… OKEY: Different things like that, you know. And it finally broke up, 49:00you know. But I never will forget Peake, you know; I thought I never would see him again and then run into him right there… BERGE: Working right there.

OKEY: And Tom Bedell, or Dan Bedell, I said Tom is the one… BERGE: You meant… OKEY: He is the one I was to go into the Navy, it was Dan, his brother, now he got into the CCC; and he came down here too. But He got into, I would say, more or less politics, he got into the union stuff and he moved to Washington, but he later died.

BERGE: Did you ever see your friend from the Navy again?

OKEY: Huh? No, when he came out of the Navy, he came home, I guess, well when he came home, he reenlisted. He made the Navy his career. And he reenlisted and he moved back to California and he married out there in California and I never saw him after he came back from the first enlistment. 50:00He had so much time and his mother and daddy was still living here and his brother, and he was them and that was the last time I saw Tom.

BERGE: Yeah. Well I tell you Hal, I really enjoyed this and I am going to enjoy talking to you again this afternoon. I want to thank you for coming down and letting me talk with you.

OKEY: Well I appreciate it and I appreciate you calling us and letting us come down.

Well you know.

BERGE: Yeah, I am sure it does and it probably was kind of interesting, last night sitting at that table with those… OKEY: It was. You know and I, well, Blunk, I hadn’t saw Blunk for years.

BERGE: Did you remember him when you saw him?

OKEY: Yeah. As soon as I saw him I remembered him.

BERGE: You knew who he was, huh?

OKEY: Yeah.

BERGE: Did you see any of those pictures he had last night?

OKEY: Yeah. We… BERGE: They were really something to look at weren’t they?

OKEY: Yeah. They were. We...

BERGE: Did you recognize any of those guys in the pictures?

OKEY: I recognized a few, but I, I mean… BERGE: People change, you know people change.

OKEY: Yeah, they do change, I mean… BERGE: It would be hard for me 51:00if they ( ) look like in that picture.

OKEY: Oh, yes, I don’t look nothing like I did. I had some pictures at home of myself… BERGE: ( ) was surprising because he was a big strong looking guy.

OKEY: I had pictures of myself and my mother and daddy standing down there by our camp… BERGE: Oh, yeah? You still have them?

OKEY: We looked that house high and low—I tell you we played Pinochle at valley with Jack’s wife and I brought those pictures out there and showed to Ed Frisch, he was another one, that was in the CCC, down here with us. Those pictures—I took them home and I cannot find those pictures nowhere. And we were sittin’, ah standing by those tents, so that would have given him an idea. But I told Ginny, when I go home I am going to turn that house up—I know those pictures there somewhere.

BERGE: I have some names of some other people in Louisville, that this afternoon I wouldn’t mind asking you and Blunk, and 52:00Jackson about, to see if you remember any of them. I want to thank you and we will talk again this afternoon.

END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO.

END OF INTERVIEW.