Frankfort’s Craw Oral History Project
Interview with Mr.George W. Simmons, Jr. and Mr. Henry Sanders.
May 29,1991.
Conducted by James Wallace
© 1991 Kentucky Oral History Commission
Kentucky Historical Society
Kentucky Oral History Commission
100 W. Broadway ( Frankfort, KY 40601
502-564-1792 ( (fax) 502-564-0475 ( history.ky.gov
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should be corroborated with the original audio recording if possible.The following interview is an unrehearsed interview with Mr.
George W. Simmons, Jr. and Mr. Henry Sanders for "Frankfort's
'Craw:' An African-American Community Remembered." The
interview was conducted by James E. Wallace in Frankfort,
Kentucky, May 29, 1991.
[An interview with Mr. George W. Simmons, Jr. and Mr. Henry
Sanders]
WALLACE: Let's see, today is Wednesday, May 29th, isn't it?
SIMMONS: Right.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Let me ask if you would sit over here and I'll just .
. . I'll sit in between you.
SIMMONS: Well, I'll get you a chair for you.
WALLACE: Oh, that would be nice.
SIMMONS: We got to get together on this.
WALLACE: Let's see. I got some photos and things I thought
you all might enjoy.
SIMMONS: Of course, [inaudible] Henry, I'm going to tell later
in the story, why I got this chair. [Laughter] This chair has a
little history.
WALLACE: Let me get this turned up just a little bit so we can
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be sure and get the volume right. Oh. I brought some pictures.
I thought they might stimulate some . . . some memories. And I
got these in a sort of different sort of way. There was a . . .
do you remember Louis Cox?
SIMMONS: Yeah, he'd dead.
WALLACE: He is dead. He's . . .
SIMMONS: He was my buddy. He does, too.
WALLACE: Yeah. His wife is still alive.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And they had two . . . at least two girls, uh, Nell
Cox and I can't think of the other. But one of the girls, uh,
was coming into the area, and this was during the urban renewal,
and she took some pictures. And I thought I'd bring them. They
may be people and things that you all recognize. And I'll start
SANDERS: That looks like, uh . . .
SIMMONS: Have you got the same as I have?
WALLACE: No. I'll give him . . . this is the same one. He's
. . . just about the same. It's the same individual.
SIMMONS: This here's, uh . . . is that "Squeezer" [James
Brown]?
SANDERS: That's "Squeezer".
SIMMONS: [Laughing] "Squeezer" Brown. Oh, "Squeezer".
WALLACE: What's . . .
�
SIMMONS: I don't know what "Squeezer's" name. What is his
name?
SANDERS: I never did know what's his name. [Laughter] First
time I ever knowed "Squeezer" . . .
SIMMONS: "Squeezer". Hey, hey, this is the reason I got this
man, because . . .
SANDERS: The first time I ever knowed "Squeezer", we was
living on Clinton Street and I was going to the [Laughter -
Sanders] . . . I was going to the Clinton Street High School, in
Kindergarten. And we would play in that school when . . . no, it
was early one morning. And "Squeezer" . . . was painting an old
house on the corner there.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And that sun got hot. He came down off the ladder
and looked up at the sun, went home and got his guitar and came
back and got to picking on the guitar and said, "I don't bother
work and work don't bother me." [Laughter]
SIMMONS: That's the reason I got this man, because I didn't
know all this.
SANDERS: Of course, I was very young and . . . and it amazed
me. You know, he sit on the rung of that ladder talking about,
"I don't bother work and work don't bother me."
WALLACE: Work don't bother. [Laughter] I've heard stories
�
where he would, uh, get Kool Aid mixed up and cookies for the
kids and . . .
SANDERS: Oh, yeah.
SIMMONS: He always attracted the kids.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: They followed him.
SANDERS: He got his pension from the first World War and, uh .
. .
WALLACE: [Inaudible].
SIMMONS: Hay, [inaudible] called to invite you all in on this.
I thought you all would enjoy this.
FEMALE VOICE: Hello.
SIMMONS: This man's from England.
FEMALE VOICE: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: And this is "Squeezer" Brown. [Laughing]
FEMALE VOICE: Oh, my goodness.
SIMMONS: Just talking about these pictures.
FEMALE VOICE: Hello.
WALLACE: Jim Wallace. Glad to meet you.
FEMALE VOICE: Mr. Wallace, this is my sister-in-law.
SIMMONS: That's Charlotte.
WALLACE: Nice to meet you, ma'am.
SIMMONS: Mrs . . .
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FEMALE VOICE: Johnson.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Why don't you all sit here. We can . . .
FEMALE VOICE: No. No, we'll let you all have it.
FEMALE VOICE: Yeah. We just wanted to meet the young man.
FEMALE VOICE: This is Dot, Henry. I bet you've met Dot.
SANDERS: Yeah.
FEMALE VOICE: Dot Woodward, but that's Henry.
SANDERS: Yeah. How you doing?
FEMALE VOICE: Yeah. Good to see you, Dad.
SANDERS: Yeah, umhumm.
FEMALE VOICE: Trying to talk her into coming to church with me.
SANDERS: Well, good.
SIMMONS: I got "Squeezer" Brown. [Laughing]
FEMALE VOICE: Yeah, "Squeezer" Brown.
SIMMONS: Do you remember "Squeezer"?
FEMALE VOICE: Yeah. He was a . . . yeah.
FEMALE VOICE: Well, you all go right on.
SIMMONS: Okay.
FEMALE VOICE: We won't . . . I just wanted to come in and show
my face.
SANDERS: All right.
WALLACE: Nice to have met you, ma'am.
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FEMALE VOICE: Thank you.
WALLACE: I thought, uh . . .
SIMMONS: "Squeezer". Got that picture? [Laughter - Sanders]
SANDERS: And he'd get a bunch of kids and he'd march with
them, you know. They was in the Army. They had to march. And
he'd march them to Tiger's Inn and that's where the kids hung out
mostly. And he'd have the man lock the door and, then, get
anything they wanted in Tiger's Inn.
WALLACE: Ah.
SANDERS: Now, if they didn't act right, they couldn't get
nothing. They'd put them out the door and tell them to go on
home to your mother or something. But, if they acted right,
they'd get pop and ice cream and candy, anything they wanted.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: And they say he spent most of his pension on those
kids.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Taking them to different stores and . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . and buying them candy and pop and stuff.
WALLACE: Yeah. A lot of people have told me very positive,
favorable stories about "Squeezer".
SIMMONS: He's a . . . he was a beautiful man.
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WALLACE: Let me show you some other things here.
SANDERS: He could play a piano.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah. I didn't know that.
SANDERS: Sing. Oh, yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: This one might bring back some and . . . and, let's
see, I'll show you . . .
SANDERS: Old Mayo-Underwood High School.
WALLACE: Let's see, that was . . .
SANDERS: That Mayo-Underwood School there.
WALLACE: . . . a picture of a girl down there. When did you
start at Mayo-Underwood?
SANDERS: 1932.
SIMMONS: That's the reason I got him. [Laughter - Wallace]
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah, I went to Clinton Street [School], the
old school up behind the prison.
WALLACE: Yeah. Clinton Street School for colored.
SANDERS: See, we went past the prison to go to school every
day.
WALLACE: When were you going there, the late twenties [1920's]
or . . .
SANDERS: Twenty- . . . well, Kindergarten and first grade up
there and I went to . . . started in second grade at
Mayo-Underwood.
�
WALLACE: So, you must have been one of the first students to
go into Mayo-Underwood when it opened.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah, that was the second grade. Yeah,
umhumm. I saw the first graduation class at Mayo-Underwood.
WALLACE: When was that?
SIMMONS: My, my. Tell him the name, where the name came from.
WALLACE: Yeah. I would . . . I would be very interested in
that.
SANDERS: We had a . . . uh, the principal used to be at, uh .
. . at, uh, Clinton Street High School was named Mayo [Professor
William H. Mayo].
WALLACE: Ah, Dr. Mayo.
SANDERS: Yeah. And Underwood is the . . . the . . . was a
doctor, black doctor in Frankfort.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And he was very well liked and born a lot of black
children around Frankfort. And he made house calls and, uh, so,
they decided to name it from the principal of Clinton Street
[School] and the doctor, and they came up with Mayo-Underwood.
WALLACE: Ah.
SIMMONS: That's where the name Mayo-Underwood came.
SANDERS: Yeah. So . . .
WALLACE: Did you go through all of the grades at
�
Mayo-Underwood?
SANDERS: Yeah. Umhumm. [Laughter - Simmons]
WALLACE: And did you attend Mayo-Underwood, also?
SIMMONS: No. You see, this is why I got this man.
WALLACE: Ah.
SIMMONS: I came here in '54 [1954].
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
SIMMONS: Yeah. I came here to go to college.
WALLACE: Oh, at Kentucky College, State College.
SIMMONS: And, uh . . . oh, yeah. At the state. And this is
why I got him, and I'm so thankful that I thought of him.
WALLACE: Let me show you that picture there.
SANDERS: Now, you talk about people getting along, when I was
a kid, they had a fellow named Fallis, John Fallis.
SIMMONS: Yeah. I remember.
SANDERS: And he was more so a kingpin around the Bottom.
SIMMONS: Now, he was white.
SANDERS: Yeah, he was white.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: But he helped a lot of black people.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: How did he help them? What . . . what kinds of
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things did he do?
SANDERS: Well, if they needed coal or something, he'd have
some coal sent to them; or, if they needed groceries, he'd give
them money to go buy groceries and, if they needed clothes, he'd
give them some money to buy clothes. Just different things that
. . . whatever they needed, he'd try to help them with it. But,
uh . . .
WALLACE: Well, did he ask anything in return?
SANDERS: Nope. Nope. Because, see, he was . . . back in
those days were prohibition days.
WALLACE: Ah.
SANDERS: And he was, uh . . . he had a . . . a . . . a . . .
well, might say a ring, operating in all Frankfort selling
moonshine.
WALLACE: You mean, bootleggers working for him?
SANDERS: Yes.
SIMMONS: Yes. Stilling all that moonshine. There's a story
there.
SANDERS: Yeah. Of course, all he did, walk around dressed up,
looked like a governor or something, see. You didn't see no work
clothes or nothing on him. [Laughter] But he was very good. I
mean, one day, we was standing on the corner . . .
SIMMONS: Would you like to have a Coke or something?
�
WALLACE: Oh, I'm fine, thank you.
SANDERS: We was standing on the corner . . . I had a twin
brother and, uh, we had a little wagon. We always got a little
red wagon for Christmas. And we was running up and down the
street in it and he was on the corner and, of course, you never
knowed what might flare up any time, you know. He looked at us
and told us, said, "Hey, you little fellows don't have a bit of
business on this corner in the world." Said, "Here." He gave us
a dime or a nickel or something.
SIMMONS: And that was big money.
SANDERS: Yeah, back in those days. Said, "You all take this
and go on home now. And don't . . . I don't want to catch you
back down here any more." And, of course, that scared us.
WALLACE: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: He told us to not come back any more. But we obeyed
him. We didn't go back any more.
SIMMONS: Because they was looking forward to another dime.
SANDERS: Yes. So . . . but he was, he was awful good to the
blacks down in the Bottom. And he got killed by a black.
WALLACE: How did . . . how did that happen? What was the
story?
SANDERS: I heard that, uh, they imported a guy in here from
out of town to kill him. And he got in a gambling game someways
�
down to his house when he lived down on Wilkinson Street. And
this guy out and . . .
SIMMONS: That was down below the Carlton.
SANDERS: Right behind old Mayo-Underwood School.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Where Wilkinson and Hill run together?
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Oh, he's . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: He had a big old house sitting there right up against
that hill there.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And, uh, this guy's supposed to have shot him right
there, and killed him, in a gambling game.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: But he had . . . he had one son that, uh . . . well,
Bixie. Bixie Fallis [Benjamin Fallis], he served on the fire
department for years.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: I know. I knowed that.
WALLACE: Now, Bixie's widow, Vivian, is still alive.
�
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yes.
WALLACE: I went down and talked to her.
SIMMONS: Hey, you're on the ball. That's good. You're
getting some first-hand information.
SANDERS: Bixie's . . . he served on the fire department for a
number of years till he retired and, then, Carlos Fallis . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . was a Representative in the state house.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, uh, that was his two sons. Now, I tell you
another . . . a daughter I didn't know was his daughter until
recently. And, uh, she . . . her name is, uh, last name; she's
married. What's Bruce's name, down at the bank?
WALLACE: Brooks.
SANDERS: Brooks.
SIMMONS: Bruce Brooks?
WALLACE: Are you thinking of R. T. Brooks' wife?
SANDERS: R. T.s' wife was his daughter [granddaughter, Betty
Brooks]. [Laughter - Simmons]
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: He's getting his stuff together.
WALLACE: I went . . . well, a lot of people keep referring me
�
to others.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: I went and talked to R. T. about Fallis.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: See, he . . . he knew Fallis because he'd come up in
. . . he was a young man and he . . .
SANDERS: Well, he lived down below him there, see.
SIMMONS: But let me inject this while I'm thinking of it. Did
Fallis have problems with the law?
SANDERS: They all had . . . any of them down there that was in
the . . .
SIMMONS: Uh-huh. They didn't think too much of Fallis for
some reason.
SANDERS: Well, he shot . . . you know, he shot at a . . . he
shot Wilhelm, you remember.
SIMMONS: Yes.
SANDERS: And, then, after he shot him . . . he shot him from a
distance, saw him coming, walking, see. [Laughter - Simmons]
Police did, walked a beat down there a long time ago. And he
just . . . he thought it was Guy Wainscott and he shot.
SIMMONS: I know Guy Wainscott.
SANDERS: And after he shot and hit him, he realized that it
wasn't Guy Wainscott. And he made a statement in court that he
�
shot the wrong man, he wasn't meaning to shoot him. But, uh,
yeah, he was always in it with the law.
SIMMONS: Yeah, I thought that. I . . . I had heard it.
SANDERS: [Inaudible].
SIMMONS: This is . . . I got it by the way of the grapevine
because I can't . . .
SANDERS: They was actually afraid of him because he would do
something to you.
WALLACE: Yeah. They said that he . . . if you got into a
fight with him, you better try to kill him. [Laughter]
SANDERS: Yeah. That's right. I guess that boy out of
Lexington knew it, see, and he didn't take any chances with him
that night. And he just layed him away.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: But, uh, he was good to the blacks down there.
WALLACE: Were there others like John Fallis that had his kind
of reputation? I've heard of a man by the name of Alex Gordon.
SIMMONS: I . . . I was raised [inaudible] from him.
SANDERS: Alex was a . . . everybody thought a lot of Alex
because one time he ran a . . . before he got into trouble, he
ran a grocery store down here, and he . . . you know, blacks had
to depend on credit a lot in those days.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
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SANDERS: They didn't have any money to amount to anything and
they'd have to buy stuff like 15 cents' worth of this, 10 cents'
worth of that, uh, a nickel loaf of bread, half a dozen eggs and
a quart of milk. And they'd let them run a bill.
WALLACE: Tab.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And the end of the week, maybe they'd go up there and
pay a couple of dollars on it.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: They still owe the man $6 or $7. That's where Alex
got . . . people got to like him real well, you see. When Alex
went out of the grocery business and he got hanging out in the
Bottom, drinking. And they tell me, back in about '34 [1934], I
guess, because whiskey had just began to come back, and, uh, they
was still selling that white lightening, they called it.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: And he went to this place this black dude was running
for the white man. Cy Currens, I think, was the name.
WALLACE: What was the name of the place, do you remember?
SANDERS: Red Brick.
WALLACE: Red Brick.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Was that, what, Clinton and Washington or . . .
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SANDERS: Yeah, that's it. [Laughter - Simmons] Yeah. And he
went in there and wanted to buy a half a pint on credit and the
boy told him he couldn't let him have it. So, they got in an
argument and they got to scuffling. Alex wanted to whip him or
something and that boy grabbed him and throwed him. And Alex got
mad and left and told him he'd be back. He was gone about 15,
20, 30 minutes maybe, and he came back, walked in there and
blasted away and killed him. John Stepp's brother, you know John
Stepp.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: It was his brother. And, uh, of course, people never
did think much of Alex after that and, then, he got into business
selling, uh, packaged liquor after that.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: He got out of it. He didn't serve any time at all.
Then, uh, he had a pretty good trade with the white. Of course,
the black wouldn't trade with him because there was another
liquor store right there down the street from him. And they done
all their trading with, uh, George Taylor, they called him.
WALLACE: George Taylor.
SIMMONS: Yeah, George Taylor.
WALLACE: Whereabouts was George's place?
SANDERS: It was right there in the Bottom before you get to
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Clinton Street. On your left there, going down Washington.
WALLACE: Washington, okay.
SANDERS: It's . . . it was about two doors up from Clinton
Street on your left when you're going down towards, you know;
and, uh, of course, George was awful good to them, too, down
there.
WALLACE: Well, did George . . . somebody told me George took
over from Mike Deakins.
SANDERS: Well, here's . . . here's the deal. Charlie Duvall
was a big deacon in First Baptist Church. George was working for
Charlie, distributing beer and pop. Charlie didn't want his name
on the license, you know, on the count of him being a deacon at
the First Baptist Church.
WALLACE: Church.
SANDERS: He made a deal with George, "If you let me use your
name and put this liquor license in your name and you take care
of the business like it's yours, we'll split the profit down the
middle."
WALLACE: Umhumm. Charlie bankrolled him or something.
SANDERS: Yeah. So, that's the way the deal started out.
Then, of course, George made money out of it, see; and, then,
afterwards, when George started straightening out and buying his
own liquor store. But he started down under Charlie Duvall.
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WALLACE: Ah.
SANDERS: And it was stipulation that, uh, if George died
first, whatever interest George had in the liquor store would go
. . . automatically go back to . . .
SIMMONS: Charlie Duvall.
SANDERS: . . . Charlie Duvall heirs.
WALLACE: Charlie.
SANDERS: And Charlie died first. George kept his half and
took care of the business for his wife. So, Charlie died first.
So, that made him where he could have half of it.
SIMMONS: May I interject . . . inject this at this time?
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: See, I was in college up here, you know. I worked as
a bartender at the Knotty Pine and the Knotty Pine used to get
all of this beer from Charlie Duvall.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
SANDERS: I would go in at four o'clock in the afternoon and
the first thing I did was to, uh, check my drinks and, when I
found out what I needed, I had to call George Taylor at Charlie
Duvall's and report what I needed. And immediately after I
reported it, it was within less than an hour, it was there.
WALLACE: Where was Knotty Pine? Was it . . .
SIMMONS: Knotty Pine was, uh . . .
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WALLACE: In Bottom?
SIMMONS: Well . . . no, no. The Knotty Pine was right up . .
.
SANDERS: That was on Main Street.
SIMMONS: . . . right here where the Farmers Bank parking lot
across from the State National Bank.
WALLACE: Yeah, okay.
SIMMONS: That was the Knotty Pine. And, uh, so, when I called
up to George Taylor's, would bring the drinks in and his favorite
drink was a Erhler's '92. [Laughter] But he would drink his '92
and, then, he would go back. And let me say this while I'm
talking about it because, after I finished college, I became a
social worker and I used to be an employment counselor. I
supervised the handicapped. They was employment programs for the
state. And, uh, I found out that many of these trustees from the
reformatory was working around the capitol every day and, when
they became eligible for parole, they had to have a job and a
place to stay that had to be approved by the Parole Board. Okay,
with the connection that I had with George Taylor while he was
distributing this beer while I was doing the bartending, George
Taylor expanded. He had liquor stores . . . I don't know how
many liquor stores he had. And he had a restaurant down there,
used to be Red Cross there. You remember, Henry.
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SANDERS: There on Wilkinson Street.
SIMMONS: On Wilkinson Street, across from where the Capital
Plaza Hotel. Always was closer to the Broadway.
SANDERS: Well, closer to trestle.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, so he had jobs. He had
apartments. And he placed these people; had their, uh, jobs and
places to stay that had to be approved by the Parole Board. And
I'm the man who looked out for them. I've got a billfold in my
pocket right now that, in 1960, one fellow by the name of Leon
Blackstone, was a trustee; I got him a job and along with this
billfold that he made for me, I got a checkbook . . .
WALLACE: Ah.
SIMMONS: That he made for me, because I got him a job.
WALLACE: Job.
SIMMONS: And, uh, I got many black . . . this was a black guy,
but I got many a whites jobs, too.
WALLACE: So, George could get them places . . .
SIMMONS: George could give them a place . . .
WALLACE: . . . that . . . people back in the Bottom or . . .
SIMMONS: George could give them a place to stay and a job that
would be approved. They couldn't work around liquor.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: They had to be away from liquor and places where they
�
would be, uh, prone to go back into trouble again. And George
was the man . . . and he and I worked together for years.
WALLACE: Well, let me back . . . back up a little bit, and
we'll start and I'll work my way back.
SIMMONS: Okay.
WALLACE: Were you born in Frankfort, sir? Whereabouts and
when?
SANDERS: I was borned at the old Winnie A. Scott Hospital on
Second Street.
SIMMONS: I didn't know this.
SANDERS: Umhumm. We lived on a farm out to Bridgeport.
WALLACE: Uh-huh. Okay.
SANDERS: I . . . I had my mother tell a tale out in . . .
don't know whether I should say this or not, but I am. That, uh,
they carried her to the hospital. Back in those days, you know,
they had those, uh, what they call it, mother . . .
SIMMONS: Midwife.
WALLACE: Midwives, yeah.
SANDERS: And most children was born at home.
SIMMONS: Yeah. I was born at home.
SANDERS: Dr. Coleman, old Dr. Coleman that was the family
doctor, and he borned a many, a many a child in Frankfort and
Franklin County. And something was the reason why he had her go
�
to the hospital, because he didn't like they way she was laboring
or something. So, when she had the first one, my oldest brother,
he's dead now, she said, "Thank goodness," because you didn't
have all these anesthetics and stuff they've got now, you know.
So, when he was born, she looked at Doc and told him, said,
"Thank goodness, it's over with." He said, "Well, you just as
ready get ready for another one because there's another one
expected." [Laughter] [She said] "No, no, I can't stand it."
SIMMONS: I didn't know Robert was older than you.
SANDERS: Yeah. He's eight minutes older than I am.
SIMMONS: Eight minutes older.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: They were twins.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, after that other one was born, she said she
thought she was going to die; but she [inaudible], had both of
them, and both of them was healthy and she was [inaudible]. And
we was raised there at Bridgeport. And I left Bridgeport because
we lived in town. Here's what happened. See, they talk about
integration and the buses and things. Now, but when I was eight,
nine years old, or seven and eight years old, I used to wonder
why we had to go all the way . . . come all the way to town, past
�
three schools, in order to get to Mayo-Underwood to go to school.
And I couldn't understand why I couldn't go out there at
Bridgeport because they had a high school and a grade school out
there.
SIMMONS: Right there at home.
SANDERS: Yeah. And I got to make all this trip to Frankfort.
Then, in eight years, we knew that they had to bus these kids and
everybody was really hollering about it. But we had to be bused.
When we first started school, they put us . . . the school boards
didn't have any buses for us, no schools out in that area for us,
and they paid my daddy to bring us to school.
WALLACE: So, he would pick up all the black children and take
them to school?
SANDERS: Yeah. Him and another fellow out there, Forrest
Martin. [Laughter - Simmons] He'd bring us . . . he'd come get
us in the afternoon, Daddy would, and the other man would bring
us of the mornings.
WALLACE: When abouts was this, the late twenties [1920's] or .
. .
SANDERS: No. It was in the thirties [1930's].
WALLACE: Thirties [1930's]. Okay.
SANDERS: Yeah. Uh, and I started in '28 [1928] or '29 [1929],
up to old Clinton Street [School].
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: And their sons was, uh, grown, and they were still in
high school up there and one of the could drive, and that's the
way we started school, was to . . . riding with them. But the
one that could drive, he graduated the first year we started
school. So, the next school time, they had the other boy's
father . . . he couldn't drive . . . and my daddy to haul us back
and forth. And they paid them "X" amount of dollars a month.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: To haul us.
SIMMONS: Keep the blacks from the whites. [Laughing]
SANDERS: Yeah. So, after so long, and they figured it was
costing too much money and they had some other children in the
area out there they was going to have to start getting to school,
they made an old homemade bus; made it out of tongue-and-groove
lumber. They put some seats in there, box seats in there, and
they took it over to Kentucky State. Kentucky State had
Rosenwald School up here for training.
SIMMONS: It was segregated, too.
SANDERS: Yeah. So, they made a deal with Kentucky State to
let us come to their school and they would pay Kentucky State and
they would furnish the bus and pick all the students up. So, I
took my seventh grade and the eighth grade up here at Rosenwald.
�
And, then, back down to Mayo-Underwood for my high school. So,
uh, I . . . I . . . I just don't see these people hooting and
hollering about busing. [Laughter - Wallace]
WALLACE: So, you never actually lived down in Bottom, then,
till maybe after you graduated school or . . .
SANDERS: When I was 15 years old.
WALLACE: What led you all to come?
SIMMONS: This is the reason I selected this man, because I
knew he knew.
WALLACE: He has a lot of knowledge.
SIMMONS: He knows more than I'll ever know.
SANDERS: I tell you, that's the reason why I left home as fast
as I did, because I didn't like farming. [Laughter] They busted
me out on this farming. My uncle, Earl Tracy, he had a taxi
business at that time and they had a . . .
SIMMONS: I was hoping you'd bring this in.
SANDERS: And I had just began to learn how to drive and, of
course, I was thrilled to death to drive a taxi, see.
WALLACE: You and your brother?
SANDERS: Yeah. So, we both left home to come to town, so we
could drive the taxi, see, for him. And, of course, we never did
go back to the country after that.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
SANDERS: So, I got married and I lived at, uh, Center Street
in two rooms. One of them was the kitchen and the other was the
bedroom.
WALLACE: Did you own your place?
SANDERS: No, no, no. I didn't.
SIMMONS: No. We both came along with that kind of thing.
SANDERS: Yes. And, then, John Buckner had apartments on Mero
and . . . and, uh . . .
SIMMONS: And, uh, Center Street.
SANDERS: Center Street, yeah. Had three rooms and bath.
Yeah. There never was a bath where I lived. There were two
other fellows in this same . . .
WALLACE: So, you all shared.
SANDERS: We all had to share one bathroom.
WALLACE: Did you have indoor, uh . . .
SANDERS: Yeah, we had indoor.
SIMMONS: But that was probably different from where he came
from, though.
SANDERS: Oh, yes.
SIMMONS: When we came up, we didn't have that.
SANDERS: Yeah. So, anyway, I moved to John Buckner's
apartment, which was one of the nicest parts in that area at that
time.
�
WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: And I was paying 13 dollars and a half a month.
WALLACE: Month.
SANDERS: For rent.
WALLACE: This was the place on Center Street, the two-room?
SANDERS: Center and Mero Street.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Center and Mero. Right at . . . right across
from Mayo-Underwood.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
SANDERS: Yeah. And, then, after that, I had . . . my daughter
was born in 1945 and my sister got after me that we needed more
room because when I married, my wife had a son that was five
years old by a previous marriage, and we all had to sleep in the
same room, see.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Of course, I reserved the living room and, anyway, my
sister got after me about separating them, you know. They were
getting too big, or he's getting too big, to be in the same room.
And there was a house on . . . on Wilkinson that Ernest
Wooldridge . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . it was . . . it was just bought from somebody
and she told me to see him about it. There were five or six
�
rooms in that house. So, I saw him and he claims that he'd
already promised it to somebody, but if I wanted it . . . we was
cousins . . . then, he'd let me have it. So, I moved on
Wilkinson.
WALLACE: Was that Ernest Wooldridge, you say?
SIMMONS: Yeah. Ernest Wooldridge.
SANDERS: And, then, uh, I stayed there till, you know, the
slum clearance moved us out. They was supposed to have bought
that house, and when I went up to see them about giving me . . .
helping me about moving, you know, they had a rule that, if they
bought the house before you moved out, they would pay something
on your moving expenses.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: I went up to check with, uh, uh . . .
WALLACE: Frank Lewis or Charles . . .
SANDERS: Lewis, Frank Lewis.
WALLACE: Frank Lewis.
SIMMONS: He was here.
WALLACE: I know some of them names. [Laughter - Simmons]
SANDERS: And he told me that, when he got to checking, that
they found out Ernest didn't own that house, that, uh, he paid
the people off for it, but getting a clear deed to it, he never
did get a clear deed. And the people lived in California that .
�
. . only close heirs to it, and they was going to have to send to
California, to send these papers and get them signed and
everything to . . . in order for him to get a clear deed to the
property and, therefore, I wasn't entitled to any benefits. So,
I had to move myself.
WALLACE: Without any assistance.
SANDERS: None so ever. So, we'd bought over here where we're
at now on Langford Avenue.
SIMMONS: [Inaudible].
SANDERS: Yeah. [Laughter - Simmons] And, of course, I'm kind
of . . . and a lot of people disagree with me . . . that slum
clearance. What came about, how come it to come about? The
league . . . How they have it now? The league voters, the
voters, league voters for Franklin County, they had a club and
they went to the city fathers and told them there was so much
crime and corruption and diseases in the Bottom that they ought
to try to do something about clearing it out and cleaning it out.
And they suggested to them that they go through the Slum
Clearance to get aid and money. And that's how the slum
clearance started, from the League of, uh . . .
WALLACE: Women Voters.
SIMMONS: Women Voters.
WALLACE: I've seen the results of their survey.
�
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And some of the statistics that they quoted. I
didn't know what led them to do the survey. They just decided
that this area was unacceptable or un- . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Well, I'll tell you the reason why they decided.
They had . . . a lot of them had women working in their kitchens
and things and they was afraid that they might bring some disease
into their homes.
WALLACE: Ah.
SANDERS: So, they wanted to clean up to make sure that they
wasn't going to catch anything.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: In fact, the dump used to be right behind me at one
time.
WALLACE: Oh, really? Now, was that down by the river?
SANDERS: Yep.
WALLACE: On the other side of Wilkinson?
SANDERS: Yep.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And they moved it and, then, they brought it back.
Well, when they found out that . . . the blacks found out they
was going to bring it back, they didn't want it back down there
�
because of mosquitos and flies and rats and everything; and they
had a hearing one night on it and one lady that lived down the
street from me, she worked for Dr. Minish [Dr. Lawrence T.
Minish], I believe, at that time, in his office up there in the
McClure Building . . . uh, Julia Miles.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Willie Miles' wife.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: She worked for him for years.
SANDERS: She was there and made a very, very intelligent talk
. . .
SIMMONS: That's right. That's right.
SANDERS: . . . that night about, "You all expect us to come
clean, working for you and everything. Now, how we going to stay
clean you got a dump sitting right there in our back door; rats
and . . . and mice and flies and mosquitoes and everything? We
could catch any kind of disease off of it. Now, how do you all
expect us to stay clean and come to you all if you're going to
put a dump right in the back of our houses?"
WALLACE: When . . . was this prior to the slum clearance?
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Yes. Oh, yes.
WALLACE: Back when, in the . . .
SANDERS: I'd say the early forties [1940's].
�
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah, and, uh, so . . .
WALLACE: I know some . . .
SANDERS: It had some bearing on them because they did move it
and took it on Bald Knob Hill out there.
WALLACE: Some of the people I've talked to, they said as kids,
one of the things they'd do when the river came up, the rats
would come out of the dump.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. Sure.
WALLACE: And they'd go rat-knocking with baseball bats or
whatever. And, so, you can tell it was pretty filthy to have
that down there.
SANDERS: Yeah, it was. And the odor . . .
WALLACE: Well, let me ask some questions, since we're on slum
clearance. Do you remember how you all found out about the slum
clearance, who told you or if you read it or . . .
SANDERS: Well, I found out by . . . through the newspapers.
WALLACE: Ah.
SANDERS: News media. Of course, there wasn't too much
television because . . .
SIMMONS: We didn't have television back then.
SANDERS: And, uh . . .
�
WALLACE: How did you feel when you all found out about it?
SANDERS: Well, I thought . . . personally, I thought that it
was a good idea and would help people to a great extent because
when they started out, they had a . . . I thought, a good plan.
But, down the line, they changed everything. Their first idea
was that they were going to clear it out and those people that
owned property down there, they were going to leave a section of
it . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: . . . for them to buy back, to rebuild, after they,
uh, cleared it out and . . .
SIMMONS: Screened it.
SANDERS: Yeah, and put . . . put whatever flood protection
they were going to put up down there.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And, then, they were going to put a housing project
back in there for the people that was renting and just couldn't
afford to rebuild back. During Breathitt's administration, the
whole thing changed.
WALLACE: Why? Why? What . . .
SANDERS: Because, uh, uh, they didn't have the money to
complete it, one reason.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
SANDERS: And they went to the state to get the state to come
in on it where they could fund it to complete it. So, they made
a deal with the state that they'd put that complex down there,
office building [Capital Plaza Tower], and they . . . they tried
to make it sound good, they was going to build a . . . a gym for
Kentucky State Uni- . . . College, at that time.
WALLACE: Civic center, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah, because they didn't have a . . .
SIMMONS: A gymnasium that was suitable.
SANDERS: . . . a gymnasium that was suitable for the Ohio
Valley Conference and they was going to get in the Ohio Valley
Conference at that time. And that way, it would meet the
requirements of the Ohio Valley Conference. So, they put the gym
down there and put the complex down there. They changed the
whole thing. They did put the . . . an old rickety housing
project down Wilkinson Street.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: Now, that's the only thing from the original plan
that was . . .
WALLACE: Riverview?
SIMMONS: Heights.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Yeah. There's a lot of people that felt betrayed
�
because they were led to believe that they were going to come
back in.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: And I would like to inject this at this time. I
think you and many other people, as well as myself, feel that
many people went to an earlier grave because they were so
disappointed in how that thing finally wound up. For example, I
brought that chair over here for you.
WALLACE: Okay.
SIMMONS: And, uh, there's another one in the bedroom back
here. We have a Tiffany lamp downstairs that Bertha Parker
called me one day when she found out that she had to move from on
Center Street, she and James had to move from Center Street and
relocate where they are . . . where they moved up here on, uh,
Douglas, because of the slum clearance. They hadn't . . . they
didn't have enough room to accommodate everything that they had
cherished through the years. They had to get rid of it one way
or another. And I'm so thankful that Bertha was a close friend
to my late wife's mother and I used to go to Bertha's house and
compliment that Tiffany lamp downstairs. And she called me one
day when she found out that they had to . . . had to sell and had
to accept the price, but the price didn't commensurate with the
price of whatever relocation they were to have gotten. So, they
�
had to accept it, but they had no room for a lot of . . .
[End of Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
WALLACE: . . . the relocation. You said people went to an
early grave.
SIMMONS: Yes, because they couldn't . . . wasn't . . . I don't
know whether it was that only or whether it was that plus
separating them. Like, down there on Mero . . .
SANDERS: Well, you remember what Maurice Scott made a
statement at a meeting one night.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: That he was going to . . . rub salt in a lot of
wounds.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: Are you talking about . . . oh, what was . . .
SANDERS: Maurice Scott.
WALLACE: Maurice Scott. Now, what was that statement he made?
SANDERS: That he was going to help stuff salt in a lot of our
wounds.
WALLACE: That's a pretty harsh statement.
SANDERS: Yeah. He made the statement and it came out in the
paper.
SIMMONS: And look . . . and this is because of Lucille
�
Lampkin. It just got her. Now, she died, you know; but, of
course she had moved out. She had gotten married and moved out
because . . .
SANDERS: Well, she lived quite a number of years after that,
you see.
SIMMONS: Yes. But, uh, it used to, it was really something
that really got her.
SIMMONS: See, Morris was at one time chairman of the board on
the Clearance Board.
WALLACE: Yes. Yes. He was a big mover in it right in . . .
SIMMONS: Right, right.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah. And, then, Jack Rhorer, he got to be
chairman of it.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: I think he was in the final stage of it, really,
actually.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, did you all go . . . I know . . . I've read
that they had some public hearings when the project first started
and . . .
SIMMONS: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . they invited all the residents to come and . .
.
�
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yep.
WALLACE: Did you all go to . . .
SANDERS: I went to one meeting and . . . and got insulted and
. . .
SIMMONS: And so did I.
WALLACE: What . . . what happened?
SANDERS: Well, my landlord was Ernest Woodward and I got on
the floor and made a statement that, uh, I thought that it was a
good idea, that there's a lot of people needed help and a lot of
old sub-houses that people had to live in because they didn't
have anywhere else to live and it would be one way that, if we
might look at it, that, uh, would help them to get better houses.
He let me know right quick, "You haven't got a word to say
because you don't own nothing down there."
SIMMONS: And . . . and let me tell you one thing. I'm so
thankful that I had in mind to invite this man because I'm fixing
to say something now that it may be that it was the same meeting
that I was in on. When John Gerard was either mayor or he was
trying to become mayor . . .
WALLACE: I believe he was mayor at the time.
SIMMONS: He was the mayor, and I asked . . . like you,
encouraged it. I thought it was one of the most beautiful things
�
could happen to the people down there. And John . . . Ernest
Wooldridge told me in no uncertain terms . . . poor man is dead
now, but I'm no- . . . I'm not going to lie on him. This man
told me that, "You are a Gerard man and we don't want to hear
what you've got to say," in so many words.
WALLACE: So, this . . . this project split the black
community.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. And let me say something else, too. Your
neighbors, "Tubba" Marshall told me after he got up there where
he is . . . I . . . I went to his house this afternoon to make
sure we were together tonight. And I was looking at their homes
up there and I thought about what he told me way back after he
got up there, said, "Mr. Simmons, had it not been for the slum
clearance . . ."
SANDERS: Absolutely.
SIMMONS: ". . . I'd a never had a bath and a bathtub."
[Laughter]
WALLACE: Some people did prosper as a result.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There was lots. Everybody
profited by it. Even though it was a disadvantage to some
money-wise, so . . . so far as the environment, it was so much
better.
SANDERS: Well, it was . . . to quote the whole story was,
�
those people that had lived so long in that environment . . .
SIMMONS: That's right. That's right.
SANDERS: . . . that they thought that was the only . . .
SIMMONS: That was the only way.
SANDERS: . . . living that there was.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And my wife, right today, if it hadn't been for her,
and the Bottom would still have been there, I'd still been in the
Bottom.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Thinking that this is the greatest place there is.
SIMMONS: This was it. This was it. Yeah.
SANDERS: But she knew that we were going to have to do
something and she didn't want to have to be renting anymore.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, she got hold of [Glen] Purdy. That's when they
were developing this area over here, Cherokee Park.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And got talking to him and he gave her a price . . .
SIMMONS: Purdy was a good . . . he was a good guy.
SANDERS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was one of the finest . . .
SIMMONS: He's a white man, but he was for people. Yeah.
�
SANDERS: So, he told her . . . we didn't have any money,
wasn't making any money. And, uh, back in those days, you know,
they had a, uh, uh, freeze on your salary, you know.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: The Chamber of Commerce had gotten with the merchants
and the businessmen of Frankfort and they was holding out all
factories and, uh, in order to where they could hire us. We
wouldn't have to pray that they'd want to hire us, and you had to
sit there, see.
WALLACE: Well, when was this going on, now?
SANDERS: In the forties [1940's]; '38 [1938], '39 [1939] and
'40 [1940], '41 [1941]. I started to work for Earl Harrod at
Pete's Corner, and it was a hangout . . .
SIMMONS: I remember it.
SANDERS: . . . for the . . .
WALLACE: White kids, wasn't it?
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And I worked for him, and I got to know a lot of
those fellows over there because that . . . some of them was in
college, some of them was in high school. Billy Young and
Whitakers and all that bunch that boy that run it for Hutchison
down in there. He was very familiar. Anyway, they were set up.
�
WALLACE: So, it was almost as if they had an unwritten
agreement that we're going to set wages and . . .
SIMMONS: That's right. That's right.
SANDERS: That's right.
SIMMONS: That's right because . . .
SANDERS: I started working at Earl Harrod seven days a week
for $12 a week. And I was working five o'clock in the evening
till two or three o'clock in the morning.
WALLACE: And Henry . . .
SIMMONS: As . . . pardon me, go ahead.
SANDERS: And, uh, so, when Bob Yount was running for mayor,
they was fighting him with everything they had.
WALLACE: Who was they, now?
SANDERS: The old bunch. Pat Sullivan; my man I worked for,
Harrod; and [Fred] Sutterlin down at the ice plant. All that old
bunch. Fred Rogers, run the Model Laundry, a sanitary laundry,
"Happy" Gains, all of it.
SANDERS: So, Harrod had promised the people he was going to
bring factories in to have more jobs for the people that needed
jobs. Well, they didn't want to hear that, see.
WALLACE: Ah.
SANDERS: So, they went to fighting it in court, trying to beat
it. And they put old man Sutterlin that run the ice plant down
�
there. He was a good old man. He helped a lot of blacks in the
Bottom. He had the coal yard up there.
WALLACE: Was that Fred Sutterlin?
SIMMONS: Yeah, Fred Sutterlin.
SANDERS: Yeah. He had the coal yard and they tell me . . . I
didn't know this till recent, late years . . .
SIMMONS: I'm learning something tonight, because I didn't
know.
SANDERS: He found out that some of the blacks in the Bottom
needed coal and didn't have any money. He'd load a half a ton of
coal up and tell the guys to take down there and just throw it
off in front of the house, and they would send them a bill. But,
Burr--my man, Oliver Harrod had it--I worked for him at the Buick
Garage after I left Earl Harrod.
SIMMONS: That's what I wanted to ask you, if it had any
connection with the Buick Garage . . . which was right across
from that.
SANDERS: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I got tired of working at night,
from five till two and three o'clock in the morning. He wouldn't
switch me on day shift because, see he didn't have nobody to take
off day shift, put on the night shift; so, I did it. I just
quit.
WALLACE: And you went to where? Where did you go?
�
SANDERS: Buick garage.
WALLACE: Buick garage.
SANDERS: Frankfort Buick-Pontiac Company, Oliver Harrod, they
was cousins, he ran it. And my brother was already working there
and we was twins and after he found out that I wasn't working for
Earl, he sent for me one day to drive his wife to Lexington to
the doctor. She'd had an operation. So, I was going to dress up
and make a big impression with her, thought maybe it would help
me get on at the garage.
SIMMONS: Yeah. [Laughter]
SANDERS: And she did. It did. So, she told him she liked me
very well and all that stuff; so, about a week [later] he said
for me to come work.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: I worked for him 27 years. And, uh, so when Bob
Yount was running, about three days before the election, and he
never had pushed me about voting for anybody. He caught me one
day in the garage and asked me, he said, "Henry, I don't know how
those people in the Bottom's thinking about voting, but if you
can, I'd like for you to try to get them to vote for Fred." I
said, "Well, now, Mr. Harrod, I'll tell you how it is down there.
The people's already made up their mind which way they's going
and they already say they're going for Bob Yount because he's
�
promised jobs and factories and things coming in." And I said,
"Another thing, they are tired of Pat Sullivan [Farmer's Bank
President] was calling the shots."
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: And when I said that, he hit the ceiling.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Ummm, Pat Sullivan, da, da, da, da, da, all that
stuff, you know; but Pat was . . . he ran the town. Whatever he
said, they'd done it.
SIMMONS: May I . . . may I interject this at this time? What
year was that I ran for City Commissioner?
SANDERS: Oh, I don't know.
SIMMONS: It was in the seventies [1970's]. I'm the first
black that won the primary. Now, there was "Tubba" Marshall and
John Buckner. They ran, and John Buckner was a rich man. He had
all kinds of money. They didn't even win the primary, but I was
fortunate enough to win the primary. I met, uh, was is Prewitt's
name that . . . is he still living? He was down there on . . .
SANDERS: Clinton.
SIMMONS: Wapping.
SANDERS: Wapping or . . .
SIMMONS: He was a pastor . . . a preacher at this Science . .
. Christian Science on, uh . . .
�
SANDERS: I don't know.
SIMMONS: Anyway, I met him on the street one day and I said,
"I hope" . . . he called me "Booster". We used to be in the
Booster Club together.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: And, uh, I said, uh, "I sure would appreciate your
vote for me for this election." And he said, "Not only am I
going to vote for you, but my sister is going to vote for you."
And I walked far as from here to you, Henry, and he turned around
and said, "By the way, have you been to the Farmers Bank lately?"
I knew what he meant; but I said, "Of course, I have." I said,
"I do all of my banking there." Banking, why, what I did, I was
having it there. And I said, "I do all of my banking there." He
said, "You don't seem to understand." He says, uh, "If you don't
have the Sullivans behind you, you not going to win." I said,
"Listen, 'Booster', I got to have the Sullivans behind me to win,
I don't want it." That was it. And I meant it.
WALLACE: Well, I've heard people say that . . .
SIMMONS: They ran this town.
WALLACE: At one point in time, the blacks had considerable
political power in Bottom. I mean, they voted almost as a
block.
SANDERS: In a block, yeah.
�
SIMMONS: And one time since all of this is over, I went to the
Farmers Bank to borrow some money and, uh, this guy didn't know
and he didn't know me, that I was talking about this money. And,
uh, he said, "By the way," says, "Paul Sullivan said to have a
little agreement about it between you and him." Said, "He always
helps you and when John Sower ran for mayor and you voted for Pat
Layton . . ."
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: ". . . he just thought that it was . . . was
unfortunate, and he didn't think anything . . ."
SIMMONS: I said, "Listen, next time you talk to Paul, you tell
him" . . . no, no. He said, "As many favors as Paul has done
you, then you voted against him, for Pat Layton instead of for
John Sowers." I said, "Listen, next time you see Paul, you make
a point to tell him this; that anytime George Simmons borrowed
that money and paid it back, he was doing him a favor." And that
was it.
WALLACE: It's interesting to hear you all talk about political
people that I . . .
SIMMONS: Oh, oh, yes. Yes.
WALLACE: . . . I have some passing knowledge of. To get the
black vote, what would politicians do? Would they come down in
the Bottom and . . .
�
SANDERS: Oh, yeah. The last time "Happy" [Governor A. B.
"Happy" Chandler] ran for . . .
SIMMONS: I'm glad to hear you say that.
SANDERS: Yeah. Be glad at the old statehouse yard. I expect
he had 4,000 to 5,000 people in that yard up there. And some of
the state workers was upstairs in the Old Statehouse. They had
been looking out the window. And he made a comment, you know,
Wetherby [Governor Lawrence Wetherby] was supposed to put that
rug on the floor when it cost $28,000, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah. [Laughter - Simmons]
SANDERS: All right, he made fun of that rug. And he made a
statement before he started talking about it that if he got on .
. . in the Governor's office, we're all going to walk on that
rug, everybody.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Just not a few celebrities, all of us go.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And he looked up in the window and saw these people
and told them, "Honey, I know you all have to work tonight
because they wouldn't let you be off because you didn't want to
come to my rally, but help's on the way. Don't worry about it."
And I was standing next to an insurance man, and he looked at
this guy he was with and I heard him make a statement that he
�
just won that thing right there. I went on down in the Bottom
and was in the liquor store. And there was a pretty good crowd
of people in there because some of them had been to the rally,
see. In walked "Happy". Harry Davis and two or three more of
his henchmen shaking hands and patting on the back and
everything. And my brother-in-law, the one you got in this
picture right here, he was in there. And he wasn't for "Happy".
He was a [inaudible] man. And when "Happy" looked out there, he
set the house up, throwed $50 or something down, and told them,
said, uh . . .
SIMMONS: I didn't know this but I had heard this.
SANDERS: Well, it was in the . . .
SIMMONS: That he'd left the rally. He'd go down in the Bottom
to Mike Deakins'.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah, that's where he went.
SIMMONS: And he'd go down there and when he walked in, they
were looking for him.
SANDERS: Well, George Taylor.
SIMMONS: Was it George Taylor's then?
SANDERS: George Taylor had the whiskey store.
SANDERS: But, anyway, he would go in and everybody was looking
for him. When they saw him, they knew, "I'm going to get a drink
free."
�
SANDERS: Yeah, yeah, see.
SIMMONS: And he's telling the bartender to set them all up
and, then, give me the bill.
SANDERS: And he walked on out, walking out shaking hands,
patting everybody on the back . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: "Going to vote for me tomorrow. Vote for me
tomorrow." And a lot of them, a lot of politicians, that's where
they got . . .
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: . . . the black vote.
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: They'd come down there a night or two before the vote
and set up . . . buy beer and whiskey.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: And I'm going to tell you, tell about Ms. Alice
Samuels' daddy.
SIMMONS: Oh, I know, "Pop" Samuels.
SANDERS: Henry. "Pap", they called him.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: But his name was Henry, see.
SIMMONS: Yeah, I remember that.
SANDERS: Boone Hamilton was running for County Judge.
�
SIMMONS: Boone Hamilton was a great guy. He . . .
SANDERS: All right, they had a big vacant lot sitting there
beside, uh, his drawing place. And he built a stand and
everything, speaker stand. And they brought the beer and stuff
down that afternoon, set it up, you know, got it on ice. And
"Pap" was heading it up. He was campaigning for Boone Hamilton.
SIMMONS: Oh, yes. L. Boone Hamilton.
SANDERS: So, anyway, Boone came down that night. Well, George
William Chiles used to be a barber down there, black barber down
there, and he's full of mischief to everybody.
SIMMONS: Everybody liked him, though.
WALLACE: What was his name, now?
SANDERS: Charles William Chiles.
SIMMONS: We called him, uh . . .
SANDERS: "Corn Puddin".
SIMMONS: "Corn Puddin", that's right. [Laughing]
SANDERS: Yeah. And he's a good fellow.
SIMMONS: He liked corn pudding.
WALLACE: Pudding.
SANDERS: And he's a good barber.
SIMMONS: That he was.
SANDERS: But he was always full of mischief. So, he told Pat,
"Judge, give me a drink."
�
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: "Slip me a drink right here, Judge." "No, you . . .
nobody's getting nothing till the Judge speaks. After the Judge
speaks, you can have it; but you ain't getting nothing." "Corn
Pudding" goes next door and buys a half pint and he puts shoo-fly
in it. He opened it up and put shoo-fly in it. And he come
back, he said, "Judge, you ain't going to give me . . . " "No, I
ain't giving you. No, no." He says, "Well, I'm going to give
you a drink. Here." And he drank that bottle up. "'Corn',
you're all right." He drank that half pint up. So, when he got
on the stand, that took. [Laughter]
SIMMONS: He committed himself to all of them, didn't he?
SANDERS: He couldn't hardly stand it that night. He got
talking and all, and introducing Boone Hamilton as the next
County Judge, and [I] want all of you to vote . . ." About that
time, he grabbed himself back here and he couldn't move.
[Laughter] Boone said, "What's the matter?" They always called
old man Samuels "Judge", too, see.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: "These damned fools done shooflied me and I got to
get off this stage . . . [Laughter] "Corn Puddin" had shooflied
him.
SIMMONS: But, see, half of this, I didn't know; but I knew the
�
man that I thought knew, you know.
SANDERS: Yeah, but . . .
SIMMONS: And I said, I'm going to have him here at seven
o'clock.
SANDERS: Yeah. About a hundred people standing around down
there and he told the judge he had to go someplace . . . "Some
people done shooflied me." And it took Henry, well, Henry, he
couldn't move. [Laughter] So, "Judge" went on and made his
speech and I don't think Samuels ever got back. Somebody else
had to handle giving away the liquor and what-have-you.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: But they always managed to get that night or two
before. And it did get some votes for them.
SIMMONS: Now, look, uh, here's something else and I'll just
mention the prostitutes.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: Did you want to enlighten him on, uh, Maggie and, uh
. . . Maggie and uh, uh . . .
WALLACE: Ida Howard had a place, didn't she?
SANDERS: Yes. It was . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. And what was this guy's name, we called him .
. .
SANDERS: "Doughbelly".
�
SIMMONS: "Doughbelly". "Doughbelly". Lived on Clinton Street
right across from . . .
SANDERS: Yes. But he rented rooms. He didn't have any women
there. You'd take your . . . you'd take your girlfriend or
whatever down and rent a room from him.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: But Maggie had women and Ida had women.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: But Ida catered to the white and Maggie catered to .
. . to the ones that had the money. And they claimed that the
mayor got caught down there one night.
WALLACE: Which?
SANDERS: Deacon Smith.
WALLACE: Ah. Okay, that would have been back in the thirties
[1930's], wouldn't it?
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah, or forties [1940's], early forties
[1940's]; something along there. But they claimed police raided
it because she was letting both races go in there. It made her
money.
SIMMONS: Oh.
WALLACE: Like the . . .
SIMMONS: And she, Maggie, worked for Pat Sullivan. She was a
�
janitoress or something, isn't she?
SANDERS: Well, he don't let . . .
SIMMONS: At . . . at the Farmers Bank.
WALLACE: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: She could get by with a lot of stuff that no other
blacks could.
WALLACE: Because she was connected with the Sullivans.
SIMMONS: She was connected, yeah.
SANDERS: Well, Pat . . . Pat would go down there all the time.
SIMMONS: Oh. [Laughing]
SANDERS: He'd hang down there..
WALLACE: Where was Maggie's place?
SANDERS: At the time I remember it, it was up in the alley and
. . . what did they call that alley?
SIMMONS: Off of . . . off of Washington, between Washington
and . . . what was this where the junk yard . . . Hoopers, they
had that junk yard between . . .
SANDERS: Sam Schiller had the junkyard.
SIMMONS: Yeah, between . . .
SANDERS: For years, uh-huh.
SIMMONS: Yeah. It was back in that area. I've forgotten what
the name of it was.
�
SANDERS: But, anyway, you have to . . . you could come in it
two ways. You could come in through the alley or you could come
in the back way off Center Street.
SIMMONS: And . . . and . . . and most people that came in one
way, they didn't want to go out the same way.
WALLACE: Go out the same way. [Laughter]
SANDERS: So, anyways, they raided a couple or three times. I
think Henry Waters, because he didn't like it, you know. He knew
what she was up to. And the last time they raided it, the Judge
gave her "X" amount of days in jail, the workhouse, they called
it.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: He told her he was going to see to it that she stayed
up there and spend her time because he was tired of fooling with
her. In less than a week, Maggie was out.
WALLACE: Humm.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Ain't nobody figured yet today . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: How.
SANDERS: . . . how.
SIMMONS: Well, it was Pat Sullivan.
WALLACE: Could have been.
�
SANDERS: But she . . . she . . . she had a job up there in the
bank. She'd do some cleaning for Pat, personal cleaning and
stuff, see.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: And letting him come in in the back door, you know,
and go out the back door.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: He probably helped her pull some strings.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: I'm sure he'd squashed it because he could squash
anything he wanted to get squashed back in those days. Of
course, now a days, it's different, you know, because the news
media could pick up on it and make a big issue.
WALLACE: Are any of the, uh . . . and maybe this is . . . are
any of those gals left alive or are they all gone on now?
SANDERS: Most of them have gone on.
SIMMONS: Oh, most of them are gone. I don't know if old . . .
SANDERS: Either gone on or moved away from here.
SIMMONS: That's right. That's right.
SANDERS: Some of them straightened up and married and made
good wives.
SIMMONS: What be- . . . what became of Dorothy Wright?
SANDERS: She's in Ohio.
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SIMMONS: See, she was down in there.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: And who else that I . . .
SANDERS: And Louise Evans. She's in, uh, Chicago.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: She was . . . well, and Virginia, she'd in Detroit.
SIMMONS: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Those three, I know of that's out of town living.
WALLACE: Well, one of the points that "Jazz" makes is that
Bottom may have had some places, but there were places in other
sections of town.
SIMMONS: Umhumm. He mentions in here, and I testified to it,
that they had, uh, prostitutes down there, but you'd go over on
St. Clair. And they said some high class prostitutes there.
SANDERS: Yeah. When I was driving the taxi.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: That was one reason I asked you, because you drove a
taxi.
SANDERS: I'd get a call . . . I'd get a call from anywhere two
to three o'clock in the morning from the Capitol Hotel, and the
Irvin Jacksons was the bellhop up there that time. And he'd come
out with this woman, locked arms, and between the door and my
cab, they'd stop and they'd talk, at least five or ten minutes
�
every time. And he'd bring her on and open the door and put her
in the car. Well, I got suspicious about the woman, see.
SIMMONS: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And I asked my uncle, Earl . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . about who she was, because Irvin was black and
she looked like a white woman, but he was acting awful familiar
with her back in those days, see. And he didn't get too familiar
. . .
WALLACE: It would be unusual, in other words.
SIMMONS: Yes.
SANDERS: Yeah. So, anyway, he told me, he says, "Don't say
anything to her. Leave her alone." Said, "I tell her . . . I
tell you what she does. She goes up there and . . ."
SIMMONS: Turns tricks?
SANDERS: Yeah. She's a prostitute, and Irvin looked out for
her. And, of course, I guess she was putting a little something
on Irvin . . .
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . and the man, you know, the man at the hotel who
wanted it, he'd put something on him, and he'd get the money from
. . .
WALLACE: Both ends.
�
SIMMONS: Well, can I tell something? I'm so glad this came
up. What about, uh, the black man who had the cab, Mrs.
Tillman's husband? He used to have a cab or something. She and
I used to usher together in the . . . at the First Baptist
Church. Her husband used to have a cab stand, and there weren't
. . .
SANDERS: No, you're talking about Ray.
SIMMONS: Ray.
SANDERS: Ray. Ray.
SIMMONS: And the white women were crazy about him.
SANDERS: That's what he got killed over.
SIMMONS: And, uh, look, they called him out one night to make
a run, and he never returned because they were laying for him
because the white women were falling for him.
WALLACE: What was his name again?
SANDERS: Ray was his last name, Ray.
SIMMONS: Ray . . . Tillman. Wasn't it Tillman?
SANDERS: No, no. She was Tillman. She married a Tillman.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Ray . . .
WALLACE: But he was a black businessman?
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Owned his own cab company.
�
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. And the night he got this call, he and another
buddy of his were standing on the steps on the corner of
Washington and Clinton Street. That's where their stand was.
SIMMONS: He was a handsome guy, they tell me. I never knew
him.
SANDERS: Yeah, he was . . . yeah, he was, good looking brown
skin, good hair and everything.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: Stayed neat all the time.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: He got this call. When he hung up, he came out on
the steps and asked this friend of his to go with him. This
friend said no, said, "I've got a date with a woman who's getting
off from work about eight o'clock. I told her I'd be standing
here on the step waiting for her and, if I go with you, I'm
afraid I might miss her, Ray." And he said, "I sure hate to make
this trip by myself."
SIMMONS: Oh. I didn't know all that either.
SANDERS: Well, Dick's the one. Dick Fleming was the man.
SIMMONS: Yeah. I remember Dick Fleming.
SANDERS: And they was tight. They was just like that.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
�
SANDERS: So, he left and Dick was left there, and he left the
door open so when the telephone rang, he answered it. Well, next
day when Dick heard about ten or eleven o'clock, they found him
up on . . . off Devil Hollow road, dead . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . with a bullet in his head.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And what Dick told me afterwards, what he thinks
happened, this girl that he'd been going with, the guy that was
right across the street named "Pickle", he and Cy Currens hung
out together where he had a joint over there. He was going with
the woman, same, too, see; and he had sent Ray word to leave her
alone.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And what Dick thinks happened, they had some other
woman to call pretending to be this woman that . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, that he . . . yes.
SANDERS: . . . he's going with, see. When he got to the spot,
they was there waiting on him and forced him on up there.
WALLACE: Yeah. Murdered him.
SIMMONS: Killed him.
SANDERS: Yeah, and the poor old man that got the blame for it
is a Moore boy, Alton Moore . . . not Alton, but his last name
�
was Moore.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: He worked out at the cemetery.
SIMMONS: He was a white guy, wasn't he?
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: The sheriff went busting up the road, see. Back in
them days, didn't have no state police and all like. They was
busting up the road and they met this poor old man walking down
the road drunk.
WALLACE: Ah, and they pinned it on him.
SANDERS: So, after they got up there and found Ray, when they
come back, they picked him up and locked him up, and charged him
with the murder.
SIMMONS: I'm trying my best to . . .
WALLACE: When was that? When was that?
SIMMONS: It was before my day.
SANDERS: It was 1935. That's when it was, because Earl Tracy
started the taxi in '36 [1936].
WALLACE: Was Earl a black guy or white guy?
SANDERS: Yeah, he was my uncle.
WALLACE: Oh.
SANDERS: Yeah.
�
SIMMONS: That's the reason I got this guy, because I knew he
could tell us a lot.
SANDERS: After Ray got killed, we didn't have a black taxi in
Frankfort.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, he . . . he . . . he . . . '36 [1936] and '37
[1937] . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . he was running the taxi. When the '37 [1937]
flood hit the Bottom, he run that taxi through water coming
through the doors.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: Hauling people out of the water in the flood area
down there.
SIMMONS: I hope you can get Ray's name. I'm sure somebody
will have that.
SANDERS: I think it was Tom. Tom Ray, I believe his name was.
SIMMONS: Something. I've forgotten now.
SANDERS: But, uh, that's what happened. That's how come Earl
Tracy to . . .
WALLACE: Right.
SANDERS: And he had some help. He was working for a woman
named Ann Thomas right there where Harrod Brothers Funeral Home
�
is now. She was a rich woman, widowed woman, and she had, uh, a
butler, a chauffeur, a housekeeper, a cook, and another one
worked there. They had six of them working there for her. Of
course, he kept his job and he needed somebody to operate the
taxi, you know.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Especially during the daytime, and that's when I
started driving.
SIMMONS: You and the . . . and, uh, Robert, both, and
Sylvester Crank.
SANDERS: Yeah. See . . .
SIMMONS: And, then . . . then, I think it was Crank.
SANDERS: Umhumm. Yeah. Yeah, he had Sylvester Crank and he
had, uh, my half-brother Mick.
SIMMONS: And Judy used to drive, substitute, a lot.
SANDERS: And, uh . . . and Tommy Campbell.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Back in the forties [1940's], who would be driving,
or thirties [1930's]?
SANDERS: Thirties [1930's]. This would have been '36 [1936]
and '37 [1937].
WALLACE: Did Earl own the company or . . .
SANDERS: Yeah.
�
SIMMONS: He owned it, yeah.
SANDERS: He owned it.
SIMMONS: I came here in '37 [1937].
WALLACE: Somebody told me he was a man of political influence.
SANDERS: He was.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah, he was.
WALLACE: How did you get to be politically powerful?
SANDERS: Well, you had to . . . you had to have a pretty good
mouth like my brother-in-law had [laughter] and nerve, and stand
up with them because they'd shoot you down before you could get
on your feet good.
SIMMONS: And . . . and . . . and I'm going to tell you
something else Earl had on the ball. He serviced all the
refrigerations and everything in not only Franklin County, but
the adjacent counties.
SANDERS: Yeah. He worked for Earl Harrod over here.
SIMMONS: Yeah. And I used to ride with him. You see, I was a
student in school and I couldn't afford to ride, and he'd come by
and pick me up and I was tickled to go to some other county, just
to get away.
WALLACE: Away, yeah.
SIMMONS: And, uh, I . . .
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SANDERS: Then, we didn't have any lights on our playground,
and the whites had the playground over to the . . .
WALLACE: Second Street?
SANDERS: . . . Second Street school. And he was heir to a
piece of property down on Benson . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, Benson Road, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . Road out there. In fact, we still own that
place. And he had a bunch of us school boys, took us out there,
and we sawed down cedar logs, trees, and went up on that hillside
and snaked them out down to where we could get them on the truck
and hauled them out from down there and brought them down on the
sand bar for them to put those poles up so we could have lights
to play at night.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: He was the instigator of that.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: He got the Water Plant Board. Back in those days it
was Kentucky Utilities owned it then.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: And I'm going to say something else, too. That where
we are right now, Earl was one of the Board members of this, uh,
College Park Subdivision Association, and he had a sixth grade
education.
�
SANDERS: I didn't know whether he had that much or not.
SIMMONS: Well, maybe not. And, then, a doctor, a Dr. Ridge
and there was a lot of these other guys, they thought they knew
And they knew they didn't know, but they didn't want anybody to
know that they didn't know why this sixth grade man, a man that
didn't know anything, they all give him credit. There are
several people would have been in here right now if it hadn't
been for, uh, Gus Richards is one. Say, "Okay", Wright, you
know. Dr. Exham, Dr. Bibb would have been in here. "Plug"
Williams would have been in here. And there are any number of
people; but they hadn't . . . they didn't know which way to go,
but they didn't want to ask anybody and, as a result, these
people were anxious to get located.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: In a nice location, and they had their loan. Now,
"Plug" Williams had his loan approved from the federal government
and Dr. . . . not Doctor. He was a football coach that used to
live over there. He built this house over there in your
community.
SANDERS: Taylor?
SIMMONS: Taylor. Ramsey . . . not Dr. Ramsey. It was Taylor,
and he wanted to come over here. Well, Taylor . . . They
wouldn't listen to Earl Tracy, see, and, uh, because he didn't .
�
. . he didn't . . .
WALLACE: Because he only had . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . such a little education?
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you. Did you all get federal loans,
low-interest federal loans? They said . . .
SANDERS: I didn't. I didn't. I had . . . if it hadn't been
for [Glen] Purdy . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . I would never have been able to purchase the
house when I purchased it.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Well, here's what he did. He told me . . . he was
trying to get, uh, one of these low-interest rate loans out of
New York.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: He sent all the papers in and everything and they
sent back and got information from me and everything. And I
don't know what they ever told him; but here's what he came and
told me. "Henry, you've got to be Jesus Christ to get one of
those loans."
SIMMONS: That's it.
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SANDERS: You can't ever been garnisheed. You can't ever been
. . . several stipulations like that.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That they knew that you didn't
qualify for it.
SANDERS: Yeah. Anybody, ordinary person, came along that time
to . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . and they . . . they'd had some back bills owed
somebody or something.
SIMMONS: Uh-huh, that's . . . yeah, yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: . . .so, there was restriction on it. But he said,
"Your wife is so anxious for that house up there, I'm going to
help her get it."
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: He went to the [Capital] Building and Loan and talked
to them down there and told them that he would be willing to take
a second loan on the house as if I had paid the down payment.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: If they'd go along with the loan.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: And, of course, Jack Rhorer and had taken over at
that time and I had worked with Jack at the Buick garage. So, he
�
told him he was going to go along with it. He knowed me right
well and he figured that he'd be . . .
WALLACE: You'd make good on it.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, he came back. Now, she'd already give him some
money. She paid him a little bit at a time trying to get . . .
save up money, you know. He came back and told us that, said
"Henry" said, "I'm going to close the deal on this property,
piece of property for you all, because Dorothy wants it so bad.
And all it's going to cost you is $500 closing costs and I'm
going to take the second mortgage."
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: "And they're going to set it up there in the
[Capital] Building and Loan where you can pay on that second
mortgage and the first mortgage."
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And that's how I got the house.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: And after I had had it for about a year, Jack Rhorer
came to me and asked me was the payments too high. I wasn't
paying but $70-some a month.
SIMMONS: Yeah. [Inaudible].
SANDERS: And I was paying $35 rent money in the Bottom.
�
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: I said, "Well, it's a little steep." I wasn't making
but about $50 a week or something. [Laughter - Simmons] He
said, "Well, I'll see if I can get them to lower it a little bit
for you. And I'm not kidding you, I'm not, but I'll try." So,
in about three weeks, they came back and said, "I got them to
lower it $5. Will that help any?" I said, "Oh, yeah.
Everything helps a little bit."
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: So, he lowered the payments. So, I paid it out.
Paid Purdy and them off first and, then, paid them out there on a
20-year mortgage.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And that's the way I got my house. I didn't get any
government loan.
WALLACE: Did you get any government kind of loan?
SIMMONS: Yeah. Well, no. No. You see, I . . . we had owned
two houses prior to this.
WALLACE: Ah.
SIMMONS: And, uh, we sold . . . we bought the first one for
$3,800; 411 Wilkinson. Sold it for $4,200. Bought another one
up here where Ms. Cowherd used to live across there from the
�
campus there. Nick, uh, uh . . . what was his name? Charles . .
. uh, used to be the, uh, Senator.
SANDERS: Anderson?
SIMMONS: And it was Charles Anderson. Next to his mother's
house. We bought this house for $7,500 and later sold it for
$10,000, and we had $10,000 cash to put on this one.
WALLACE: Ah.
SIMMONS: It was Mary Elizabeth's grandfather that had bought
the lot. The lot cost $2,750 and I was making arrangements to
pay for it on the installment plan and he heard me talking to his
granddaughter, and he was living with us, and he says, "Simmons,"
says, "I got to have someplace to live. Why don't you all let me
buy that lot?" Well, I paused because that was a family affair
and I'm just a highball. [Laughing]
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: So, I let them decide and I said, "Well, if you all
feel that way, it's all right with me." And when they said that,
I called up the man that I had made the deal to pay for the lot
over a period on installment plan and told him to cancel it
because we're going to pay for it cash. And we bought it cash.
WALLACE: Excuse me.
SIMMONS: And, uh, so, we had fort- . . . $10,000 cash on the
lot. I went to Carl Kagin with First Federal and borrowed 14,000
�
and my monthly payments over a year . . . uh, a period of 20
years at $115 a month. And we paid for it seven years ago this
coming October.
WALLACE: It's a nice . . . nice place to be in, I'll tell you.
SIMMONS: Oh, I should say.
SANDERS: We were fussing here a while back about they . . . my
house assessed at $42,000.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: And I was fussing at [Glen] Purdy here a while back.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: I thought it was ridiculous to ha- . . . they
increased the assessment on it, a period of time. He looked at
me and said, "Will you take 42 [$42,000] for it?" I said, "What
am I going to do?" [Laughter]
SIMMONS: That's right. That's right. That automatically give
you the answer, too.
[End of Tape #1, Side #2]
Begin Tape #2, Side #1]
SANDERS: . . . down in the Bottom to entertain and that's the
only place you had to go.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: For entertainment mostly.
WALLACE: Where did you go for that . . .
�
SANDERS: The joints, they had about six or eight different
joints in town.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. You could go from one of his joints to
another one.
WALLACE: What were some of the joints that, uh . . .
SANDERS: Well, one of them was the . . .
SIMMONS: Tiger Inn.
SANDERS: Tiger . . . well, Tiger's Inn didn't cater to beer
and stuff.
SIMMONS: And, uh, James Lindstrom had the, uh . . .
SANDERS: Red Brick.
SIMMONS: Well, what did he call it?
SANDERS: Then, they had the Tiptoe Inn.
SIMMONS: Tiptoe Inn.
WALLACE: And that was a black joint, Tiptoe Inn?
SANDERS: Yeah. It . . . at one time it was, but they switched
sometimes. When the blacks closed it up, the whites would reopen
it, see.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: And, then, Will Wren had a place in there he called
the Tavern.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Oh, and you could . . . you walk out of one
door and you . . . the music you hear that . . .
�
SANDERS: Yeah, and people go down the street . . .
SIMMONS: . . . conflicted with the music next door.
SANDERS: Yeah. They had a jukebox in every one of those
[places].
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: And beat . . . that jukebox keep going.
SIMMONS: Kozy Korner was James Lindstrom's.
SANDERS: Kozy Korner was one, yeah. And, uh . . . and, then,
they had the 99 [Club] across the street.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah. Of course, Mike Deakins . . . not Mike
Deakins, but Alex Gordon has his down there, way on down near
Wilkinson on Clinton, I think.
SANDERS: Yeah. So, she said that she just couldn't understand
it because the white and blacks up and down the street never seen
. . . very seldom ever seen a fight between them or anything.
She said, "I can't understand it. These people have more fun
than people in New York and New Orleans have."
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: They ain't hardly . . . and you see these little
people who are mixed up and everything, you see a big fight or a
cutting scrape . . .
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . or a shooting scrape. I haven't heard an
�
argument out of nobody down here. Very seldom.
SIMMONS: And most of the arguments that occurred were . . .
came from somebody from someplace else.
SANDERS: Yeah, well . . .
SIMMONS: They started it. The people down there understood
each other.
SANDERS: Yeah. "Sleepy Head" up here used to run the liquor
store up here. He told me one time that some guys came in here
from Lexington and stopped there to buy some liquor and it's one
of them out there asked him, "Where was this Bottom they talk
about around here?" He said, "The Bottom?" "Yeah." Said,
"There's a Bottom around here. Why?" "We wanted to go down
there. We hear there's some bad people down there. We're going
down there and see how bad they are." "Sleepy" said, "Well,"
said, "I can tell you how to get down there, but I'll tell you
where all the bad people are. They're right down here in the
cemetery and that's where you're going to be if you go down
there." [Laughter] He says, "I looked out the door and them
guys took to running and headed back toward Lexington."
SIMMONS: That's the first [inaudible].
SANDERS: [Inaudible] and I told them all the bad one's down
here in the cemetery and you go down there starting something,
that's where you're going to be.
�
WALLACE: You say they'd listen to music. Did they dance, they
have dancing?
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: Oh, yeah. Yes, sir.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: Oh, yeah.
SIMMONS: And a lot of people, to show how they enjoyed it . .
. Henry, you might want . . . I'm going through there and if I
wasn't in one of the joints, I was outside listening at the
music.
SANDERS: Ever- . . .
SIMMONS: And people would drive their cars along and they
didn't have to get out of the cars, just roll their windows down.
And look at the people passing and they had music and they would
enjoy . . . they were enjoying everything.
SANDERS: One time that . . . Jack Robb had a black funeral
home here, see.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: He lived right up the street from the Bottom, right
on the corner of Mero and St. Clair.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Right behind the old Capitol. And he had a bunch of
jukeboxes himself one time. And he come down here on Monday
�
morning. That's when most of them opened those jukeboxes to take
that money out, see, because they never . . . big weekend, see,
and the rest of the week going to be slow. He come down there to
take that money out and he'd get to clowning with them fools down
there and, first thing you know, Jack had spent about half his
money dancing and playing the Victrola . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . and having a big time buying and making stuff
for them.
SIMMONS: Yeah. And nobody fought nor nobody . . .
SANDERS: No, no. Uh-uh.
SIMMONS: . . . had a misunderstanding of anything.
SANDERS: Uh-huh. No.
SIMMONS: That's where I learned to drink Maker's Mark.
[Laughter] It might be [inaudible]. Now, you had some questions
you wanted to . . .
WALLACE: Well, was it . . . when you talk about Bottom, some
people don't define that area the same as others. When you talk
about the geographical boundaries, was it the river on the west,
South Broadway . . . I mean, Broadway on the south and, what,
Fort Hill on the north?
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: That's it.
�
WALLACE: How far east would you go?
SIMMONS: Was it St. Clair?
WALLACE: St. Clair?
SIMMONS: Was it St. Clair?
SANDERS: What, uh . . .
SIMMONS: On the east.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah, St. Clair is from pretty . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, I thought . . . St. Clair, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . supposed to have been aristocratic people
there. Pat Sullivan's people were down there . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah. Down on St. Clair, yeah.
SANDERS: Our mayor lived on Mero.
SIMMONS: Yeah. The mayors, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah, and Frank Dailey people lived on St. Clair on
the . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . on that side from Jack's.
SIMMONS: That's what it is.
SANDERS: Bill Curlin's daddy, they lived in that area . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . down there. And, uh, it was supposed to have
been a kind of an exclusive neighborhood there, on this side.
Over towards the hill.
�
WALLACE: [Inaudible].
SANDERS: On St. Clair, it wasn't.
WALLACE: Well, whites and blacks lived in Bottom, didn't they;
or were they just blacks?
SANDERS: Oh, yeah.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I lived next to white. The last 15
years I lived in the Bottom, I lived right next door to a white
woman.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And I never had a bit of trouble with them.
SIMMONS: Yeah. No.
SANDERS: And nobody . . . anybody that lived, in fact, on
neither side of her, I had blacks . . . I mean, whites. And only
trouble I ever had is when see . . . prostitutes lived next door
on the other side, and one night . . . my daughter was very young
then, and they . . . ten of them lived in that old shack over
there. It was a great big old shack, had seven, eight, ten rooms
in it.
SIMMONS: Was that "Doughbelly's"?
SANDERS: No, no. It's going down Wilkinson Street before you
got to Ms. Harris's. You know where Ms. Harris lived.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
�
SANDERS: Anyway, I called the police and I told them I had to
go to work in the morning and I couldn't sit . . . lay here and
listen to all that raucous and hollering and going-on and cussing
and fighting. They wanted to know where it was and I told them.
They came down and, to show you how much they knowed what was
going on in the Bottom, they parked that car out front. And when
they pulled up, one of them happened to be standing in the
doorway looking out, the side door around the side of the house.
And I heard her holler, "Here come the police." And they come
right back to that side door. Didn't come to the front door.
Where they were, and knocked on the door. And they were turning
all the lights out and everything. And kept banging and told
them they knowed they was in there, open up. Finally, somebody
come to the door, and he told them that they had had a call about
the disturbance . . . loud, rough talk going on. And he wanted
to know what was going on here. "We ain't done nothing. We
having . . ." He said, "Well, we got a call. Now, you had to
been doing something. Don't tell me you haven't been doing
anything." So, they talked to them and told them, said, "Now, if
we get any more calls tonight, we'll take everybody out of here.
I don't want to hear no word out of nobody." You could have
heard a pin drop the rest of the night.
SIMMONS: Who was this man who had a liquor store on Broadway
�
and everybody, it was black and white . . .
SANDERS: Forrest, Forrest Moore.
SIMMONS: Forrest Moore. And they used to go up there and have
all their drinks and everything.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: And nobody never had any problems around there.
SANDERS: Well, he had it segregated. It was . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. It was the black in the back. He let them go
in the back.
SANDERS: Back. We had to go in the back. The whites and the
colored people.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: But he did accommodate them.
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: Uh, they, uh . . . most black and whites got along
down in there. And they lived next door to one another. Some of
them was . . . cooked, ate together . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Lived together.
SIMMONS: I tell you one of the most popular things down there
was. The white people used to come down there and bring their
laundry on Monday.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
�
SIMMONS: And the black people knew what time to expect them,
just . . . well, approximately.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: They'd drive up and honk their horns and there was
blacks would go out and get their laundry. And they knew exactly
what time they were supposed to pick it up. They'd come back by
the same token and honk the horn, and they'd bring the laundry
out.
WALLACE: Ah. So, they wouldn't even get out of their cars.
They'd just . . .
SIMMONS: No, no.
SANDERS: Well, they was about half afraid, you know, they'd
heard so many rumors about the Bottom.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: All they wanted to do is get gone as quick as they
could.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: But, uh . . . well, you'd be surprised at the black
did the washing and ironing for the people that . . .
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: . . . were supposed to have been exclusive.
SIMMONS: And I'm going to say something else, too. I found
that, in the Bottom, when the water came up and everybody had to
�
move out, they'd move them out and, then, it was just almost like
having a convention or something like that.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: They'd move out and, oh, when the water went . . .
they'd have their drinks and everything. That was a . . . it was
a celebration in a way.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: And, by the same token, when the water went down,
they'd go back in and start cleaning their houses out and having
the same type of party. And, do you know, I have always said
that people that didn't know the people in the Bottom didn't
realize who they were because the people down there were some of
the cleanest people I ever met. Every Spring, Ms. Bessie
Anderson and Lucy, uh . . . Mittie's grandmother, and all those
and other people and all those people, they cleaned their houses
every Spring.
SANDERS: Well, most of the people that was working for the
white people . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. They cleaned.
SANDERS: . . . and they . . . they had to come out clean,
looking good.
SIMMONS: Yeah. He . . . they were clean people.
SANDERS: They'd come down there and pick them up, some of them
�
did.
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: Most of them had to walk to work.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, some people have labeled that area a slum. Is
that fair or is it . . .
SIMMONS: Well, I . . . I . . . I . . . it was slum, in a way,
because a lot of people had been there . . . like Mr. Scott and a
lot of those other old people had been there so many years and
they had, uh, no . . . they had a source of income. It was
limited, and, uh, their property was going down and they were
getting older and they said, "Well, we don't know what's going to
happen first, or whether I'm going to die . . .
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: . . . before it was, you know, collapsed. But, now,
it was . . . it was slummy.
SANDERS: See, most . . . most of those places didn't even have
baths down there.
SIMMONS: That's right. That's what I told you.
SANDERS: No inside toilets.
SIMMONS: That's right. That's right.
WALLACE: Who were some of the . . . I've heard a lot of people
rented and there were absentee landlords and local landlords who
�
just didn't fix things up. Dulin Moss is a name I've heard.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Charlie Duvall owned places. Uh . . .
SANDERS: John Buckner.
SIMMONS: John Buckner.
WALLACE: John Buckner. But people tend to speak more
favorably of John's places.
SIMMONS: John Buckner did. He'd, uh . . .
SANDERS: Yeah. He'd try to patch them up the best he could.
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: But they wasn't up to standard.
SIMMONS: No. No.
SANDERS: They was substandard houses.
SIMMONS: Ernest Wooldridge had some property down there, too.
SANDERS: Yeah. His was substandard.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: The house I lived in leaked the whole time I was
there and he couldn't get it stopped.
SIMMONS: Yes. Yeah.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: And I happened to . . . went . . . we had an NAACP
meeting one night and . . . and we'd all . . .
SIMMONS: Do you know what the NAACP is?
�
WALLACE: National Association for the Advancement of Colored
People.
SIMMONS: That's what it is, yes.
SANDERS: So, I told them that they was welcome to come to my
house for the next meeting if it wasn't raining. If it was
raining, bring your umbrella. [Laughter - Simmons]
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you about the NAACP. They had a
local chapter here in town?
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: I was the Vice President at one time.
WALLACE: How did it get going, and when?
SANDERS: Well, on this slum clearance . . .
WALLACE: Ah.
SANDERS: . . . we knew . . . uh, we had that meeting at the
school that night.
WALLACE: Do you remember about when this was?
SANDERS: No, I don't. Not the date. And J. B. Brown, he was
acting as spokesman that night, and, uh, after they discussed
this slum clearance, about what they was trying to do and
everything, he made a suggestion that we should revise the NAACP,
you know, the chapter here in Frankfort.
WALLACE: It had died or something?
�
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, they voted that night to revise it.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: But they elect no officers. They just voted in the
meeting that they'd . . . they'd . . .
SIMMONS: They're going to re- . . . yeah.
SANDERS: . . . it was revised and, then, if you needed them
and if you had a chapter and, then, you'd call them, see. So,
that's where it begin at, and they approached me and wanted me to
be President and I had consented that I would accept it if they
didn't get anybody else. So, Ms. Holmes, Dr. B. T. Holmes' wife,
she was teaching at the Kentucky State University, and she
accepted . . .
SIMMONS: Presidency.
SANDERS: . . . as President and me as Vice. So, we had
regular meetings during that period of time, right on through the
slum clearance.
WALLACE: Did the local chapter try to block or stop the slum
clearance?
SANDERS: Well, the local chapter didn't. Here's what
happened. The property owners put up "X" amount of dollars
apiece to go to court to try to block it.
�
SIMMONS: Dr. Holmes was one of them.
SANDERS: Dr. Holmes and . . .
SIMMONS: And [inaudible].
SANDERS: . . . and Ernest Wooldridge and John Buckner and . .
.
SIMMONS: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . Jackson Robb, he put up some money.
SIMMONS: See, they had . . . they had property down there.
SANDERS: And, uh, Charlie Duvall, he put up . . .
SIMMONS: They felt that they were going to be the big losers.
SANDERS: And Charlie Duvall, he put up some money and, uh, uh,
those stores, they had three grocery stores down there at that
time. "Frog" Woods [Huston K. Woods] ran a grocery and . . . and
Butch [Christopher] . . .
SIMMONS: And Lewis [Alonzo A. Lewis] on the corner of . . .
SANDERS: Butch [Christopher] had it then. Lewis [Alonzo A.
Lewis] was gone.
SIMMONS: On, yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: Butch [Christopher] had it. He put up some money.
All of them put up . . . about $500 apiece to go to court.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, did they get lawyers there in town to fight it
or did they bring in some lawyers out of town?
�
SANDERS: No. I think they got lawyers, and . . .
SIMMONS: And . . . and the thing about it, the people that we
named just now, they didn't think too much of the local lawyers
I don't think. They got lawyers from someplace else.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: No, they got a local lawyer.
SIMMONS: They did?
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: I've heard two lawyers names. I read in the paper
that a J. S. Carroll and a man by the name of Julian Knippenberg.
SANDERS: I never heard of him.
SIMMONS: I didn't either.
WALLACE: They came and made some statements to the County
Fiscal Court and to the City Commission about how unfair it was
and the relocation plan wasn't adequate and there was no
provision for the elderly and the churches and . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: But I never heard of those guys again. They said
they were going to fight it tooth and nail.
SANDERS: I never heard of them.
WALLACE: What happened to the law- . . . did they . . . was a
lawsuit entered into?
SANDERS: Yeah, it . . . it was . . . they . . . they had it in
�
to the big court, but they . . . they didn't get nowhere with it.
They throwed it out.
SIMMONS: That dollar spoke.
WALLACE: Excuse me?
SIMMONS: That dollar spoke. [Laughing]
WALLACE: Oh, the dollar, okay. Do you know when that suit was
entered? Was it in '58 [1958] or 9 [1959]?
SANDERS: No. No, I don't exactly remember . . .
SIMMONS: I don't either.
SANDERS: . . . what year it was. But, uh . . .
WALLACE: Did the national NAACP try to get involved and help
you . . .
SANDERS: We didn't ask them.
WALLACE: Didn't.
SANDERS: Because the local chapter is supposed to go first,
they can, before they ask the national to come in on anything,
see.
WALLACE: Oh. Umm.
SANDERS: So, we was trying to exhaust all our means before we
asked for them to come in. And that's when they decided to put
this money, property owners decided to put this money up and go
to court and see what the court said about it first. And, then,
if they had to advance it, well, they would go . . . and, then,
�
they might call the . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: . . . state or the national in. But, uh, they never
did do it after the judge . . .
WALLACE: Probably came up before a local judge . . .
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . which wouldn't have helped you all.
SIMMONS: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. That's right. That's right.
SANDERS: Yeah, yeah. Umhumm. Yeah.
WALLACE: I'll have to try and find . . . there must be some
court records on this case, and I'll have to try to . . .
SANDERS: I'll tell you, have you talked to Ms. Holmes, B. T.
Holmes' . . .?
WALLACE: No.
SIMMONS: She probably . . . now, I don't believe Ms. Holmes
would be.
SANDERS: I know she done remembers it.
SIMMONS: She has?
SANDERS: Yes, sir.
SIMMONS: Well, you try to . . . you try her because she might.
SANDERS: She can bring up them things that . . .
�
WALLACE: Dr. Holmes is still . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, Dr. Holmes' wife.
SANDERS: With his wife, yeah. She was very active in
community affairs around here at one time.
SIMMONS: Yeah. And you get in touch with her through Al
Williams, can't he?
SANDERS: No. Just go directly to her. You don't have to go
Al.
SIMMONS: Don't have to . . .
SANDERS: You can go over there and that girl over there,
Mattie Tillman . . .
SIMMONS: Oh, she works for her?
SANDERS: She . . . she's . . . she's looking after her and
taking care of her, so . . .
SIMMONS: Oh, good.
SANDERS: . . . you might call her and . . .
WALLACE: Mattie Tillman.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: And, uh, tell her that you wanted . . . what you're
doing, trying to get some history on the slum clearance and you
would like to talk to Ms. Holmes, see when it would be convenient
for her to talk to you and things like that.
�
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah. See, that will clear you because
there's . . . if somebody might think that he's trying to . . .
to catch her off balance and . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: . . . do something. You know, something . . .
WALLACE: Well, is it all right if I mention your all's names?
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah. She knows all of us well because I
worked with her.
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: Because I remember one night we had a drive at the
school and . . . for membership, and had a play. And I'll never
forget it long as I live, what she said to us. She . . . after
the play and everything, she'd thanked everybody for cooperating
and working and coming around, and thought it was a success. And
she'd like for us to come over to her house to have some
refreshments. So, several of . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. He was a Grad. He was a Grad Club member,
too.
SANDERS: Yeah, I know it. And, so, we went on over and when I
walked in, she said, "Well," said, "You can unbutton your collar,
pull your ties off, and you women that got girdles and things on,
I know you're fitting tight and everything, just drop them right
�
in the floor and enjoy, make yourself at home." [Laughter]
Everybody just cackled. "I done dropped mine, so I know how you
feel with them on. Just wherever you want to undress, wherever
you do it." You know.
WALLACE: What's her first name, now, this . . .
SANDERS: Helen.
WALLACE: Helen Holmes.
SIMMONS: Helen Holmes.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay.
SIMMONS: Helen F. Holmes.
SANDERS: She taught school over here, see.
SIMMONS: I . . . I had English under her.
SANDERS: What?
SIMMONS: I had English under her.
SANDERS: Yeah. You tell him to come over. [Inaudible].
SIMMONS: She . . . she was one of the best. The best English
teacher that I ever had. I sat up a many a night till two
o'clock in the morning getting that English for her.
SANDERS: She, uh . . . when she was, uh, President of the
chapter, they got to putting pressure on her, see, a lot of these
dentist places around Frankfort, trying to put pressure on her to
make her step down, see, because she was pushing that thing
�
pretty hard for integration. And, uh, we had some . . . Carroll
was the Governor [Frankfort's restaurant sit-in took place during
the administration of Governor]. We had some pretty good
influence through the Governor's office.
WALLACE: Was that Jul- . . . Julian Carroll was Governor?
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. So, we had talked to the restaurant owners
around for . . . about integration and they said they wasn't
going to integrate. And we didn't want to have any
demonstration; so, we had a meeting down at the school. And Dr.
R. B. Atwood, President of Kentucky State at that time, he was at
the meeting, and his students were wanting to demonstrate.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: So, "Papa Jazz" got on the floor that night and told
them he didn't think it was time to be demonstrating. He thought
there was some more alternatives and we ought to try to work out
some things without demonstration, that he knew that thinks would
work out down the line and we should continue to try to
negotiate. Atwood got on the floor and made a statement and
looked at his watch, pulled it out and looked at it and said,
"Well, I tell you one thing, it's time to demonstrate."
SIMMONS: Who said that?
SANDERS: Atwood.
�
SIMMONS: Atwood.
WALLACE: The President of KSU said that?
SANDERS: Yes, sir.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: He said, "I'll tell you," said, "I've held those
students back far as I can hold them up there, and I'm mighty
afraid if you hold them any longer, they're going to get out of
reach."
SIMMONS: Out of hand.
SANDERS: "Out of hand, and I won't be able to handle them and
nobody else going to be able to handle them."
WALLACE: When would this have been, the sixties [1960's] or .
. .
SANDERS: Well, when he had come as Governor.
SIMMONS: Yeah. I think it was back in the sixties [1960's].
SANDERS: I think . . . I think it . . . well, yeah, you're
right. He, uh . . .
SIMMONS: I'll never forget, my late wife . . . pardon me.
SANDERS: He . . . he was Governor and Jackson Robb was pretty
tight with him, see, and he . . . he . . . he had campaigned for
him. So, my daughter was going to school. It was in the sixties
[1960's] because she was . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
�
SANDERS: . . . going to school over here. And she, uh, wanted
to demonstrate. I couldn't stop her. She wanted to do it. So,
they just voted that night to start the next day . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . sitting in, and named different ones who would
head a group up to go this place, that place and other places.
They all wouldn't go in the same place.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Somebody's daughter went to Putt's Restaurant. That
was supposed to have been . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Carmello?
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Benassi.
SANDERS: So, when they walked in, five of them walked in at
sat down and he come over and dusted the table off. "Get up, get
up, got to get out of here. I'm cleaning up. I'm going to mop.
I got to mop. Get on out, now, and lock it up. Go. Get to
going." So, she said . . . my daughter said, "You haven't locked
the door yet." He went to the door and took the keys and locked
it. [Laughter] "Go on." So they got up and went on out. He
�
locked the door after they went out. They went on down the
street, about four doors down . . .
SIMMONS: And turned back.
SANDERS: No. They got out of his sight where he couldn't see
them, backed up in a doorway there.
SIMMONS: And he unlocked it.
SANDERS: He unlocked it. In a few minutes, people was going
in.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, they come right back and went in. "Thought you
was locking up." Oh, he jumped about that high, you know.
[Laughter - Wallace] Oh, he throwed a little fit, told them they
was going to have to go or he was going to call the police.
Well, the guy . . . Chief Conoway . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . had told us, "When you start demonstrating, let
me know. I'm not against it."
SIMMONS: Yeah, but he wanted it to be orderly.
SANDERS: He said, "Some of these rednecks, if there's no
police officers around, some of these rednecks might try to do
something."
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
SANDERS: But if they see a police officer standing there,
they're not going to try to do anything.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: And he gave us his private home number and
headquarters number to call him any hour of the night that we
needed him or any time of the day and let him know what we was
doing. We did that.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, when they called the police, they wouldn't even
consider bothering anybody else.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: Well, down at Frankfort Drug, they found out the city
police wouldn't lock them up, so they went up to the sheriff's
office. Leon Harrod was the sheriff at that time.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: "Yeah, I'll lock them so-and-so's up."
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, he walked into Frankfort Drug. They had a eating
. . . sit down, and he throwed a fit. "You got to get out of
here." And he called the sheriff. He come down and locked them
up. Took them, put them up, booked them. And Ms. Holmes went on
up there and got them out. So, we went to have a meeting to see
�
what we should do, and, uh, so, she suggested she'd talk to
Prichard [Edward F.].
SIMMONS: Prichard, yeah.
SANDERS: Prichard.
SIMMONS: Yeah. He was our lawyer.
SANDERS: And he said he would take the case.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, the day we had the trial, we had the courthouse
full of people, black people. From Kentucky State and local
people down in the Bottom and over town. And Prichard . . .
WALLACE: Is this Ed Prichard?
SIMMONS: Ed Prichard.
SANDERS: Yeah. The one was a big politician, yeah.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: His son works with me. Nathan.
SIMMONS: Is that right?
WALLACE: Nathan Prichard.
SANDERS: Well, he took the case for three or four hundred
dollars. I don't know, it wasn't too much.
SIMMONS: Yeah. He was great.
WALLACE: Well, this was . . . this was when Bottom was still
there, right?
SIMMONS: Yes.
�
SANDERS: Yes, sir. I was living down there.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, anyway, we took him the three or four hundred
dollars. It wasn't too much. So, we're going to the meeting.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: [Inaudible]. So, I went to court and Prentice O'Rear
. . . I'll never forget that day in all my life, because I always
thought a lot of Prentice on account of Judge [O'Rear] over here,
see. He walked in there and looked at me, because he hung in
that Frankfort Drug all the time.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: "Now, Henry, what in the hell are you doing in this
mess?" I said, "I'm in the middle of it, if you want to know."
"Well, you letting these people get you in a mess. I wouldn't
get in a mess like this." I never said any more to him. So,
when the judge . . . we was up in the big court, Circuit Court.
I forget now who was the judge, Meigs or who.
SIMMONS: I don't remember.
SANDERS: It would have been Meigs.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: He looked at them and look at the court . . . the
court, the order and, then, named the case, whatever it was the
other thing that . . . Frankfort Drug v. Kentucky State Students
�
or vice versa, whatever it was. [Judge Meigs] "Are you ready
for trial?" The lawyer defending Frankfort Drug, "Your Honor, we
not quite ready for trial today." He looked over at Prich and
said, "What about you all, you all ready for a trial?" "We came
here for trial, Judge. We ready to have a trial." [Laughter -
Simmons] "Both . . . both lawyers approach the bench." He took
them up there and talked to them about five or ten minutes.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: When he got through talking to them, he sounded the
gavel and said, "Court dismissed and laid over." It's still
layed over.
WALLACE: Ha. And there . . . never did.
SIMMONS: And let me tell you, I was passing the Frankfort Drug
one day right after that and Robinson, what was his name?
SANDERS: Ed Robinson.
SIMMONS: He was in charge of it.
SANDERS: Yeah, he handles the . . .
SIMMONS: And I saw, uh . . .
SANDERS: Lloyd Robinson was . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. And I saw Mrs. Willis's daughters, uh, Lucille
and the other one.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: They were in that drug store and they were fixing to
�
buy something and I walked far as from here to that door outside,
and I said, "I'm going to go back down there and say something to
them." And I walked back there and I said, "You mean to tell me
you all are fixing to buy that from this man, and he barred us
out of his drug store? And you all are fixing to buy that?" And
I walked out. And I think they came out after that.
SANDERS: Well, see, what we did, we went into each . . .
SIMMONS: Well, let me say this. The same time, when we were
in the heat of this demonstration, my late wife and I were at
church down at First Baptist one Sunday morning, and I thought
about the students from Kentucky State were going to demonstrate
up here by . . . at Frisch's that Sunday, at 12 [o'clock] or
something like that. I wrote her a little note. I said, "What
about us joining the students and demonstrating after we get
out?" And she said okay. And do you know, we came up here and
the students were about five feet apart, single file, walking
around the building. And we just got in line and was walking
around. And you know who was on that door?
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: Who?
SANDERS: Joe Leary [Joseph J. Leary, Attorney].
SIMMONS: You knew it. Joe Leary was on that door.
SANDERS: Yeah.
�
SIMMONS: And, uh . . .
SANDERS: He'd just come in from Sunday School and locked the
door to keep them from . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, and locked it. And I came home and told my
wife, I said, "Do you know" . . . of course, we were together. I
said, "You been talking about . . ." See, my wife didn't go to
Sunday School. I went to Sunday School, but she . . . I'd pick
her up and take her to church, and she just enjoyed Joe Leary
teaching the Sunday School class. I said, "Now, here in Joe
Leary, and this is what he's doing to us." And I called his wife
. . . called his home, and he wasn't in, and I asked his wife to
ask him to return my call; gave my name and telephone number. He
returned my call. I said, "Mr. Leary, I'm George Simmons and my
wife and I were today very disappointed when we came up there and
saw you a standing on that door and every time you could let a
white in, you'd let them in. If a black would come right behind
them, you would close the door in their faces." I said, "My wife
has been one of your Sunday School students all . . . every
Sunday. She enjoyed listening at you teach a Sunday School
class. And this is the way you're treating us."
WALLACE: Were you all members of First Baptist?
SIMMONS: We were members of the black First Baptist, yes.
WALLACE: First Baptist. And Joe was coming over there and
�
teaching?
SANDERS: No. He was teaching . . .
SIMMONS: No. He was teaching at the white First Baptist.
SANDERS: White, but he broadcast every Sunday.
WALLACE: Oh.
SIMMONS: He broadcast it every Sunday morning.
WALLACE: Then, you were hearing it on radio.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Right, right.
SANDERS: Yeah. Umhumm.
SIMMONS: I'm glad you . . .
WALLACE: Okay. I'm . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah. So, he said, uh . . . I said, "Mr.
Leary, in addition to your teaching your Sunday School class
every Sunday morning, I understand that you have an interest in
Frisch's." He was . . . had a part-interest in Frisch's.
SANDERS: He and his daughter.
WALLACE: Ah.
SIMMONS: "And, then, this is the way you're going to treat
us?" And he said, "It'll come to a head one day." And hung up
on me. And I never did have no more use for him.
SANDERS: He and, uh . . . he and Ed Whelan both was up there
[at Frisch's Restaurant].
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah. Right. Ed Whelan was one of them.
�
SANDERS: Yeah. That started it.
SIMMONS: He was a judge, too.
WALLACE: This must have been probably, what, '53 [1953] or 4
[1954]?
SANDERS: No, it was in the six- . . . sixties [1960's].
SIMMONS: No. Yes. Whelan was the sheriff, wasn't he?
SANDERS: Yeah. But he got to be sheriff after that.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Was that Frankfort Drug case, was that the same time
that this was taking place.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: It was all going on at the same time.
SIMMONS: It was . . . went . . . going on at the same time.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And Bottom was still there.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: It was still . . . still operating.
WALLACE: Slum clearance hadn't . . .
SANDERS: No. Uh-huh.
SIMMONS: No.
SANDERS: In fact, we appointed a committee to go to the
Governor and see what the Governor had to say about it, and they
went, about five of them, and sat and talked to the Governor.
�
And the Governor asked us what . . . all we had done to get them
to open up.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And he knew what he could do.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: But he . . . we, uh, we should exhaust all our means
before coming to him.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: And they told him . . . I was not on the committee.
They told him what we had done; so, that's when he suggested . .
. but he said, "Keep my name clear. Don't ever mention my name."
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: He suggested them to try . . .
SIMMONS: Another means.
SANDERS: Go to these people and ask them.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Said, you all take it for granted that they won't
allow you to sit in on . . . you know, you could come in and buy.
So, we appointed different individuals to go around different
places to ask the . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . man that owned it or run it or . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
�
SANDERS: . . . would they accept us if we came in to sit down
to eat a meal or get a sandwich or something. Horn's Drug Store
said that he didn't mind them sitting down, but he didn't want a
whole crowd of them coming in at one time. He'd serve anybody.
He had a fountain in there, see.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: Served sandwich and soda. They went there. Surrette
went to Cecil Powell's, up there on Main Street.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And walked in and draw up to the counter and asked
the woman was the manager in, the owner. "Yeah." "Could I speak
to him a second, please?" "Yeah." She went back and got Cecil.
He was back in the kitchen, and she told him to come up there.
And he said, uh, "I know what's been coming in your place and
sitting down and eating sometime." Said, "I hear you have a
policy that you just serve white men. I can come in here and get
a sandwich and take it on out and eat it, but I can't eat in
here, is that right?" "That's correct." He said, "You mean to
tell me I can spend my money, stand up here at the counter, get
me something and take it out . . ."
SIMMONS: You got to take it out to eat.
SANDERS: ". . . but I can't eat it in here?" And he said,
"That's correct." He said, "Could you explain to me why that you
�
don't want me to eat in here? What's the difference between me
and any other person eating in here?" [Powell said,] "I'm just
not going to have it. I never will open up to blacks." He said,
uh, "You mean you're supposed to be a business man and, uh, one
of high-class places in Frankfort, and you're telling me that no
black will ever sit in to eat in here?" "That's correct."
WALLACE: What . . . what was the name of his place?
SANDERS: Uh, Cecil Powell's.
SIMMONS: It was there . . . what was the name of it? He had a
name for it.
SANDERS: I know it, but Marshall's there now. Right where
Marshall's is.
WALLACE: Oh, where Marshall's is. Okay.
SANDERS: Yeah. That's where it was. He said that. So, when,
uh, Surrette walked, started to leave, he hollered and said,
"Come back any time." He just looked around after him and said,
"Come back any time? You just told me you wasn't going to serve
me." [Laughter]
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to decide whether it was
Cecil Powell or the Frankfort Drugs that Dr. Brooks, who lived
just down the street here, and I went and we sat and sat and sat,
and they wouldn't wait on us. And we just had to leave.
SANDERS: But the . . . the swimming pool was the same way.
�
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: On Berry Hill.
SIMMONS: Yeah. That's right.
SANDERS: Uh, my daughter was about eight or nine years old
when that happened. Of course, the man I worked for, I give him
credit, he worked hard on that thing to get it integrated.
SIMMONS: Who was that?
SANDERS: Old man Harrod.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. I thought a lot of him.
SANDERS: See, Water Plant Board put some of that money to buy
that place up there.
SIMMONS: You know, this man was . . . Joe Lewis came in . . .
went out there and bought a couple of the horses from him.
SANDERS: Yeah, but he never did come back and get them.
SIMMONS: He didn't?
SANDERS: No.
SIMMONS: I didn't know that.
SANDERS: So, he had to go to Washington. He was head of this
KATA at that time and he had to go to Washington about a week on
that, and he had had a board meeting with the Water Plant Board
to open that thing while he was gone, just throw it wide open,
let them come. They didn't do it. They postponed it. So, I
went to the depot that afternoon to pick him up off the train.
�
That was the first thing he asked me, "Have they opened the pool
yet?" "Nope." "What's wrong?" "Well," I said, "they got a . .
. a thing out that they want the white to use it six days a week
and the black to use it on Sunday and they're going to dump the
water out Sunday night and refill it for the whites on Monday
morning." [Laughter]
WALLACE: Geez.
SANDERS: He said, "Lord, they can't do that." I said,
"Supreme Court's already ruled on that. They can't have no
segregation up there." Said, "I thought they'd have this thing
straightened out by the time I got back."
WALLACE: Your daughter was eight or nine at that time?
SANDERS: Yeah. Nine.
WALLACE: When was she born?
SANDERS: 1945.
WALLACE: Forty-five [1945].
SANDERS: Out here. So . . .
SIMMONS: [Laughing] That tells you something.
SANDERS: He called a meeting the next day over at the [Buick]
garage and he had a . . . a private meeting room in the back of
the stockroom; so, I couldn't figure out what he was up to, but I
figured that's what it was about, see, that swimming pool up
there. So, sure enough, they all came, Ted Rogers and all of
�
them that was on the board at that time, and Ben Ryan and all of
them. And that's what it was about. And don't you know some of
them old guys that took Pat back there and said they wasn't never
going to agree to it, to let the blacks go to the pool with the
whites, and old man Harrod spoke up and said, "You got to. You
just as well get that out of your head and get it off your mind
because we're going to open it up and let them all go."
SIMMONS: Well, the same thing . . .
SANDERS: So, what we done, we picked three people . . .
SIMMONS: And sent them up there.
SANDERS: That, uh, was light-complected, see. [Laughter] I
had my cousin, John Robert, he's dead now.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Al Williams and Steve Bolton, that was the three we
picked. But you go one at a time. We give them money to pay
their . . .
WALLACE: Way into the pool?
SANDERS: Yeah. And Al, he came by the [Buick] garage to tell
me what happened. He said the girl got so excited and nervous
she didn't even take his money. [Laughter]
SIMMONS: He got in free, huh?
WALLACE: Was this the pool where Juniper Hills is?
SIMMONS: Yeah.
�
SANDERS: That's the one, yeah.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. That's the same pool.
SANDERS: And, so, when, uh . . . when . . . I asked Steve
Bolton, he went to report the next morning and John Roberts
reported to Ms. Holmes. But Al had to come to me to tell me how
it happened. Everything went all right, but the girl got so
nervous and everything . . .
WALLACE: She didn't even re- . . . take his money.
SANDERS: . . . when I handed her the money, she said, "Go
ahead, go ahead." [Laughter] So, they come back and said
everything's okay. So, the next day, my daughter goes up and
goes swimming.
SIMMONS: And she was a different complexion.
SANDERS: Yeah, yeah. So . . .
SIMMONS: And they didn't . . .
SANDERS: So, they played pay no . . . didn't want her to go
in. Kept going and they never had any problem up there. That
girl got drowned up there.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: That Combs girl.
SIMMONS: Yeah. That's right. I forgot that.
SANDERS: My daughter was up there that day that it happened.
SIMMONS: Oh, no.
�
SANDERS: And they don't know right today what happened to the
girl.
WALLACE: A black girl that died?
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. Umhumm. Yeah. She was a good swimmer and
everything.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Lifeguard looked out there and she was laying on the
bottom. He went out there and got her and drug her in there, but
she was gone.
WALLACE: Well, have I . . . have I burned you guys out?
SANDERS: No, no. No.
SIMMONS: Listen, now, we are at your service. And this is the
reason I went and got this man . . .
SANDERS: Talking about . . .
SIMMONS: . . . and the reason I asked him. And he told me
about that . . . I didn't know you had that information, but
that's yours.
WALLACE: Well, it's great to have a copy.
SIMMONS: That's yours.
WALLACE: Tell me about "Shineboy's".
SANDERS: Well . . .
SIMMONS: [Laughing] Ole "Shineboy". He was a great guy.
�
SANDERS: "Shineboy", the first time I had any dealing with
"Shineboy", he was working for the National Guard.
SIMMONS: You've been look- . . . you've been around out there.
WALLACE: I've been hearing names.
SANDERS: And he was a cook over there. Didn't have no blacks
in the National Guard at all. He was the onliest one, and he was
a cook.
SIMMONS: "Shineboy".
WALLACE: Thirties [1930's], maybe, or . . .
SANDERS: Huh?
WALLACE: Thirties [1930's], 19- . . .
[End of Tape #2, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #2, Side #2]
SANDERS: . . . and he'd hang around the Bottom and spend
money, and dancing and whooping and hollering and drinking and
going on. And then he got ready to go back up there and, then,
I'd have to carry them back.
SIMMONS: And he'd get up and get drunk.
SANDERS: Yeah. [Laughter - Simmons] So, the next thing I
noticed, "Shineboy" opened a joint down there. Well, the first
one he had was right up here on East Main Street.
SIMMONS: Oh, yes. In the neighborhood where we lived is one
reason I know.
�
SANDERS: This guy had it. He had it . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . and he bought it out and . . . rented it from
her or something.
SIMMONS: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
SANDERS: And he had good food up there.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And a lot of trade from the school [Kentucky State
University] over here.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: So, when homecoming, you know, the black joints
always tricked up for the homecoming . . .
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . Kentucky State, you know what I mean.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: They'd hire extra help and buy extra supplies . . .
SIMMONS: That's right. Right.
SANDERS: . . . and everything, but they'd double the price on
it, see, because they knowed the crowd was coming and . . .
WALLACE: Out of town, right.
SANDERS: . . . they'd increase the price.
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: Hot dogs been selling for a nickel, they'd get a
�
dime.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: Hamburger, 15 cents; you get 25 cents.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Pop, dime or 15 [cents], whatever. Anyway,
"Shineboy", he's a good cook.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: And he . . . our folks liked chitlings, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: I don't know whether you heard of chitlings or not.
WALLACE: Yes.
SIMMONS: Have you heard of chitlings?
WALLACE: I've heard of chitlings. [Laughter - Simmons]
SANDERS: So, he was . . . he was noted for good chitlings.
So, J. B. Brown, he was principal down at Mayo-Underwood at that
time.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: He had some guests came in from Alabama, Mississippi,
somewheres down South, for the homecoming. So, he . . . he
decided to take them out to eat, but he didn't want to take them
to the Bottom, see. The Bottom wasn't good enough to carry his
guests up in there, you know. Brown was all right. He was a
regular guy; but, anyway, he brought them up to "Shineboy's".
�
And on . . . on the menu, "Shineboy" had Kentucky oysters. And
these guys said, "I've never eat any Kentucky oysters. What are
they?"
WALLACE: Uh-oh. [Laughing]
SANDERS: So, Brown said, "They good." Said, "You ought to try
them." Said they was good. He wouldn't explain what they were,
see.
SIMMONS: Yeah. [Laughing]
SANDERS: Said, "I'm going to try them. You say they're good,
I'm going to try them." Well, he said all of them got Kentucky
oysters. "Shineboy" brought it out and set it down. And that
guy sat there and gobbled them chitlings down just a . . . like
eating cake or something. Said, "Next time you order . . . I
believe I'll take another order of them chitlings." He said, "I
thought you didn't know what they were." [Laughter] "Man, I
never heard of Kentucky oysters, but I was raised with
chitlings." He had another big plate of them.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: The man told that, said he felt like he [inaudible].
But he could eat them all the time. [Laughter]
WALLACE: Well, "Shineboy", somebody told me he was out from
the mountains.
SANDERS: He was.
�
WALLACE: Said he come out of Harlan.
SIMMONS: I didn't know where he was . . .
SANDERS: Yeah, he came out of the mountains. I never did know
for sure where "Shineboy" was [Inaudible].
SIMMONS: Well, "Shineboy" was liked very well.
SANDERS: But he and Alex Gordon got to shooting at one another
down there one time.
WALLACE: Ha. What did they . . .
SANDERS: They were arguing about something, "Shineboy" was
drinking.
SIMMONS: I didn't know that.
SANDERS: Alex, he was, too. And they got to shooting at one
another and they were like two cowboys shooting at one another.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: One behind one tree and the other one behind the
other one.
SIMMONS: How about that.
SANDERS: They came out shooting guns. [Laughter] They shot
about eight, ten times one night. Didn't hit nobody.
SIMMONS: How about that.
SANDERS: Then, another time, "Shineboy" had a restaurant down
there, I believe right across the street there from him.
WALLACE: Where was that?
�
SANDERS: On Mero Street, right across from the school.
SIMMONS: Yeah. See, he's a [inaudible].
SANDERS: So, one night about two o'clock in the morning, I
heard this crash, you know, and glass breaking. What happened?
Well, I jumped up and hit the floor and run to the window. And
whoever was in there . . . somebody had broke in his restaurant.
And he walked in the side door and turned the light on, and when
he turned the light on, he couldn't get by him, so he run to the
front door and there was plate glass in it.
SIMMONS: And ran . . .
SANDERS: And he went through that plate glass, getting away
from there. So, "Shineboy" ran out hollering, going on; scared
to death, I guess, "Come on out of there. I know you're in
there." I guess figured somebody else was in there, see.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: He wouldn't . . . he didn't want to go in there. The
longest time before he'd go ahead and call the police. So, he .
. . he called the police. Police came. They told him somebody
had been in there. He happened to be out this time of night and
just happened to stop by there for something. And somebody went
through that plate glass up there. [Inaudible] didn't know . . .
[inaudible] opened the door. I forgot now what he told the
police. So, anyway, they sent them to court, see, and the judge
�
asked him did he know who it was. But he ["Shineboy"] said,
"No," said, "I'm going to tell you like you all tell us. We all
look alike." [Laughter] So . . .
WALLACE: Does anybody know "Shineboy's" name, his . . . his
name?
SANDERS: No.
SIMMONS: I don't either.
SANDERS: Yeah, I used to know it, but I . . .
SIMMONS: I did, too, when I came.
WALLACE: Nobody can remem- . . . everybody just calls him
"Shineboy".
SIMMONS: Well, now, is it necessary for us to say more about
Will Castleman [William S. Castleman]?
WALLACE: I'd like you all to talk about Will Castleman.
SIMMONS: Will Castleman was a powerful wheel down there in the
Bottom.
WALLACE: Where did his power come from? How did . . .
SIMMONS: I don't know how he got it, but he sure did . . .
why, he could tell everybody who to vote for, and, "I'm going to
see that you [inaudible]."
SANDERS: Well, I'll tell you where his power came in.
SIMMONS: Okay.
SANDERS: Uh, Cass was a pretty-well liked fellow down there.
�
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: And if any of them got locked up, he could call the
man and get them turned loose.
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: Said, "I'll be responsible for them."
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: And people got to liking him.
SIMMONS: And he talked like this. He was real slow.
SANDERS: Yeah. "He's a good boy." [Laughter]
WALLACE: Well . . .
SANDERS: "Had a little too much to drink. Let him go. I'll
be responsible for him. I'll see that you get your money." And,
of course, none of these lied. They said some [inaudible] came
up. They claimed that Charlie Duvall . . . you know, he had
several joints of his own down there, and selling that beer and
stuff to them joints . . . would ride around with the police on
Saturday night, pointing out who he wanted to lock up on the
weekend so they'd have . . . he'd have to get them out. And he'd
charge them 25 cents on the dollar, or whatever interest he's
charging on his money, getting them out.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: And the man I worked for, Oliver Harrod, he told me
this, now.
�
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: It's the first time I'd ever heard it.
SIMMONS: See, this is the reason I got this guy, because I
know he knew a lot that I didn't know.
SANDERS: He said that's one reason he wanted to see slum
clearance, though, stuff like that, because Charlie was robbing
them people down there, you see.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: But Charlie, he got rich. He was a rich man.
WALLACE: So, let me see if I understand this. Charlie would
point these guys out and they'd get locked up. To get out, they
had to pay to get out.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: And Charlie got his cut.
SANDERS: That's right.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: He was a . . . what was he? He was . . .
SIMMONS: I don't know.
SANDERS: Well, the guy that they had to pay to . . . give him
fines.
SIMMONS: Yeah. I don't know.
SANDERS: What they . . . what do you call those guys there?
�
WALLACE: Umm.
SIMMONS: I don't know.
SANDERS: They wasn't [inaudible] an accessory or something
like that.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Anyway, he was the man that you had to take the
money . . .
WALLACE: To . . .
SANDERS: See, and he'd sign them out, see, and get them signed
out and, then, they'd pay him $4 or $5 a week, or $3 or . . .
and, then, when you got through paying, you knowed when the fine
was paid off; so, he'd pull them out again. [Laughter]
SIMMONS: Yeah. And . . .
SANDERS: I mean, they kept the same ones locked up all the
time, see.
SIMMONS: And anybody that wanted a job, if you got Will
Castleman [William S. Castleman] on your . . . your application,
you got the job.
WALLACE: Job.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: He must have been tight with the white politicians.
SANDERS: Well, of course, he was.
�
SIMMONS: He was tight.
SANDERS: He was. See, this guy I deal with now is named Henry
Mack, he used to . . . they used to have a . . . a gambling joint
down there, and Cass [William S. Castleman] was in it, see. And
they had pool, two pool tables up front and, in back, they played
cards all the time.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: What was the name of the joint, do you remember?
SANDERS: Well, the just called it Pool Room.
SIMMONS: Yeah, that's right, Pool Room.
WALLACE: Was that Knott's Pool Room or . . .
SANDERS: No. Knott's came in late.
SIMMONS: Knott's, I forgot Knott's was there.
SANDERS: Bob Knott's came in late.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: When was this, then, that Will was operating and
powerful?
SANDERS: Well, it was in the thirties [1930's] and forties
[1940's] and fifties [1950's] . . . and the fifties [1950's].
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: And, uh, and I'll tell you what they would do. Show
you how powerful he was up-town. Grand jury would sit every
three months. They didn't . . . wasn't in session every month
�
like they are now. Every three months, they'd sit. They sent
him [William Castleman] [inaudible] close down. Grand jury's in
session. And they'd close down. Soon as grand jury session went
out and he got word, operate.
WALLACE: Opened back up again.
SANDERS: And they don't mess with him. And they never did
bother him.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: But they got slick one year. They had a double
[second] story to the place. They moved the tables and things
upstairs, and they found out about it. Well, one Saturday night,
they'd let them get going pretty good and they had a [inaudible].
WALLACE: Raided?
SANDERS: Raided it.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Took everybody in there, because they had give them
orders to close down.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: And the old grand jury . . . because, see, they could
indict you, though, if they found out if a gambling joint's
operating in town, see. They could indict you to the grand jury
and they would get some time for it.
SIMMONS: Umhumm.
�
SANDERS: But they got bull-headed that year. Wanted to do it
[gamble], and got caught.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And Sam Parker . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, I saw old Sam Parker today.
SANDERS: And, you see, they'd send five down from upstairs. I
thought my brother was in it. [Laughter] He . . . he gambled
with Morris was upstairs sending them down. He was blocking the
rest of them to keep them from coming out. Didn't have but one
way out. And he sent five down and Sam was in the bunch. But he
had a side door. When you come down the steps, you could step in
the pool room, see, without going out on the street and coming
back in. Well, one of them was standing outside the door and . .
. putting them in the car, see, when they come down. So, Sam
cut [through the side door] and went in the pool room.
WALLACE: Yeah, slipped out.
SANDERS: So, he put the four in and hollered back upstairs and
told Henry, "Send me another one down. Send me another one. You
didn't send but four." "I sent five." "Well, there's not but
four down here, Henry."
SIMMONS: See, Sam was almost your color.
SANDERS: Yeah. And, uh, he said, "No," said, "They ain't but
four down here, Henry." Henry come bouncing down there. "Damn
�
it, I sent you four down there. I know how many I sent down
there." In fact, he looked, didn't see Sam. He looked in the
pool room. Sam done had somebody's stick. [Laughter] He was
hunching like the devil on that table. Henry walked up and
grabbed him, "Come on out of here. Come on out of here."
[Laughter] That's when he got Sam in [inaudible].
SIMMONS: Yes, yes.
WALLACE: Well, tell me, do you know very much about "Black
Cat" Graham? I've heard that's a name . . .
SIMMONS: "Black Cat".
WALLACE: "Black Cat".
SIMMONS: "Black Cat".
SANDERS: Yeah, Thomas Graham was his name. Yeah, I had
forgot.
WALLACE: They said he was a man of power and influence.
SANDERS: Yeah, well . . .
SIMMONS: He [inaudible]. He was something.
SANDERS: He had a little influence, but he didn't have that
much influence.
SIMMONS: No. He wouldn't hit a lick at a snake. [Laughing]
SANDERS: But he . . . well, he did during the war because they
made him go to work, see.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
�
SANDERS: And he worked over there on Capitol Avenue in them
sewers over there when they was . . . cleaned them sewers over
there.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And he worked in a ditch over there. But soon as the
war was over, "Cat" went and got dressed up and started walking
them streets again.
SIMMONS: Yeah. I used to work at the . . .
SANDERS: He never did have a job.
SIMMONS: I used to work in the Capitol Annex. Me and James
Lindstrom were janitors over there. And he had a job, but I bet
he didn't stay three weeks.
SANDERS: Well, he would not work.
WALLACE: Yeah. He worked at the . . .
SANDERS: But he could hustle around. He'd sell worms and
anything he could hustle . . .
SIMMONS: Baseball tickets.
SANDERS: . . . baseball tickets or anything he could hustle a
nickel and dime off . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And his sons always said that . . . well, I heard one
of them say here three or four years ago . . . he had two sons,
Jimmy and Paul. And they said . . . Paul said he never did see
�
no meat . . . he never had no meat till he went to the Army. The
old man always bought the pork chops and him and mamma ate the
pork chop and give them the greens. [Laughter]
SANDERS: And he was a kid back there.
SIMMONS: And the mother really made the living.
SANDERS: Oh, yeah. She . . . she worked up there . . .
SIMMONS: She used to be a seamstress at the . . .
WALLACE: Kathryn Shoppe, wasn't it?
SIMMONS: Kathryn Shoppe, yeah. Right. Right. She would . . .
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: I mean everybody black and white, they would always
look to Anne, uh, Graham for whatever type of dress or whatever
they wanted because Anne knew what they liked and they knew Ann
knew.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: And when it came in, she'd call them and tell them,
"I got something in I think you would like." And when they came
in and looked at it, they liked it and if there was anything to
be altered on it, Anne did the alteration. And she took more
work home with her than she did on the job.
WALLACE: Well, was it typical for both the man and the woman
in the family to work? I mean . . .
SANDERS: Oh, yeah, you had to.
�
WALLACE: And the kids, they worked, too, or . . .
SANDERS: Well, most of them, we had a little side hustle. And
some of them worked after school. I remember with Leonard Dixon,
he delivered for Lutkemeier's.
SIMMONS: Did Leonard Dixon ever work?
SANDERS: Yeah. He worked for Lutkemeier's up there riding
that bicycle.
SIMMONS: I had no idea.
WALLACE: That was Georg- . . .
SIMMONS: There were two . . . there were three people in this
town that I didn't know ever worked and Howard Dixon was one of
them. "Buddy" Ellis used to drive Dr. Underwood around. You
could always tell where Dr. Underwood was. He used to make house
visits.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: And you could always tell that Doc Underwood was here
because you could see his car out front there and "Buddy" Ellis
was in the car waiting for him. And Jimmy Graham, Jimmy Graham
just started working late years.
SANDERS: He . . . he . . . he . . . the war. The war really
helped a lot of people.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: See, I remember when Earl Tracy went to war, and he
�
was up in his forties when he came away from there. "Tubba" was
up in his forties. He had a bunch of kids.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: They went off to war?
SANDERS: Yeah. Bias Graham had to go, he had a bunch of kids.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And, uh, Irvin Green, he went.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And, uh, Dick Fleming.
SIMMONS: Yeah. I was . . .
SANDERS: These are guys that . . .
WALLACE: These men volunteered to go?
SANDERS: No, they drafted them.
WALLACE: They drafted these men in their forties with
families?
SANDERS: Yes, sir.
SIMMONS: I was in . . . I was in the thirties. I was
thirty-some, 32 I believe.
SANDERS: They'd ran out of . . . the draftees, you know.
WALLACE: Umm.
SANDERS: And they had to go up in the forties to get them.
So, after they was in there, they passed a law in Washington, D.
C. that anybody past 40 could get out of the Army if they got a
�
defense job.
WALLACE: Ah. Okay.
SANDERS: So, Earl Tracy, he got out and he went to Goodyear
Rubber Plant in Dayton.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And, uh, Bias, I forgot now what job he took. And,
uh, Dick Fleming, he went out there on Charlie Blackwell's farm
because he said if he was . . . he was working on a farm and it
was essential that you could be exempted.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Essen- . . .
SANDERS: It's it. But, see, that's the way I got out of the
Army. I was working on a farm and dairy and the old man Harrod
got me exempted, but they found out about Dick Fleming, was out
there in the house, out there keeping house for the man, see.
WALLACE: Ah. He wasn't work- . . . working the farm, he was
just keeping . . .
SANDERS: They told him they was going to put him back in the
Army if he didn't get a defense job. He went to Stagg Distillery
and that's how . . . that's how he wound up downstai- . . . you
know, Dick never did work before he went to the Army.
SIMMONS: I didn't realize that.
SANDERS: No, he didn't. He . . .
WALLACE: So, the Army was sort of a catalyst for some of these
�
guys to . . .
SANDERS: Yeah, that's right.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: That's right. [Inaudible] to the Army.
SIMMONS: No.
SANDERS: He never did have to tell them.
SIMMONS: I didn't know it. He worked out there at Blanton.
SANDERS: That was way after the war. He went down there and .
. .
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: They, uh . . . him and Jimmy Harrod and all of them
was in building those warehouses back there.
SIMMONS: Yeah. They . . .
SANDERS: They helped run that stuff, office building down
there on High Street . . .
SIMMONS: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: They helped build that.
SIMMONS: I'm going to tell you something else while I'm
thinking here. I think about Taylor Lewis and Murray Conda.
They left here . . . Taylor Lewis used to work at the Frankfort,
uh . . .
SANDERS: Drug.
SIMMONS: Drug Store.
�
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: He was a delivery man.
SANDERS: But he warehoused.
SIMMONS: Rode . . . rode a bicycle, and he did electric work
on the side.
SANDERS: Umm.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: And, do you know, when World War II broke out, he
went to Dayton, Ohio and that man started making money, money,
money, money.
WALLACE: A lot of the black vets went north, didn't they?
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. They . . .
SIMMONS: Taylor, uh . . . I mean, Murray Conda went up there.
He was a school teacher here, in Mayo-Underwood, and he went up
there and did well.
SANDERS: Yeah. Some of them went to stay out of the Army and
some of them went for the money.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: Those Chiles, they left here.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: She left here for a job.
SIMMONS: Uh-huh.
�
SANDERS: Of course, she had had a hard time. She raised a big
family, and her husband was a drunk, wouldn't work half the time.
[Laughter - Simmons] And she had to foot the . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
SANDERS: So, Charles William Chiles, that one I was telling
you about give the shoofly . . . they went up there first and
that was her daughter that was married to him, see, and they sent
for her. And they never did come back after the war.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: They stayed up there.
SIMMONS: And I was very much impressed when I went up there
and found many of the Frankfort . . . not only Frankfort, but
Versailles and Lexington . . . like old, uh, "Poorboy" and Lowell
Williams from Versailles.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: Those guys went up there and they did well and they
bought nice homes, and it really impressed me, you know, to see
guys that I had known through the years that I didn't realize
were interested in homes, and . . . but they were interested, but
they . . . they . . . they just didn't have the means to back it
up. And they went up there and got those jobs in the defense . .
.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
SIMMONS: . . . plants and they went on and, man, it really
encouraged me.
SANDERS: Ms. Aperlene Hays used to teach school.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Sophomore classes. She taught me in high school at
Mayo-Underwood. They examined those teachers one year and she
had a spot on her lung and they said she couldn't teach no more.
WALLACE: Like TB or . . .
SANDERS: Yeah. So, she lost her job. Been teaching there for
30 years.
SIMMONS: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: She left here and went to Dayton, Ohio and went to
Patterson Air Field up there and got her a whirl of a job up
there, making oodles of money. Still doing that today.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: But she'd been a teacher over here, and she was a
good teacher, good teacher.
WALLACE: Well, let me . . . let me ask you a little bit about
the black clubs; black civic organizations or business
organizations. You told me about the NAACP and I heard there was
a black Odd Fellows and American Legion and, uh, were there black
social groups that, uh, you all were members of, or clubs?
SANDERS: Yeah. He . . . when I one, the only black club going
�
was Grad Club, still in existence here.
WALLACE: Grad Club?
SANDERS: Grad Club.
SIMMONS: The Grad Club.
WALLACE: What, uh . . . tell me about the Grad Club.
SANDERS: Well, it was supposed to have been for graduates of
Mayo-Underwood High School, and that person was to help . . .
the old athletic department because they never could get enough
money to fund the athletic department.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Buying equipment and stuff; balls and uniforms and
stuff.
SIMMONS: And . . . and pardon me for interruption, but, at
that time, the blacks in their athletic program at Mayo-Underwood
had to get the hand-me-downs from Frankfort High.
WALLACE: High.
SIMMONS: And, as a result, they were . . .
SANDERS: Well, I don't think that it was so much on athletic,
but the other stuff, they got hand-me-downs.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: Books?
SANDERS: Books and things like that.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
�
WALLACE: Equipment and all?
SIMMONS: Everything.
SANDERS: Yeah, but the, uh, Grad Club would buy uniforms.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And they'd last, you know, several years. And they'd
buy the basketballs. Now, you had to furnish your own shoes.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: But, uh, they furnished your suits to play in and
jackets to put on. And, uh, they'd give a dance ever
commencement for the graduates.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And have a . . . Smoke Richardson's dance band.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Smoke Richardson was . . .
SANDERS: Everybody. [Inaudible] by man.
WALLACE: Smoke who?
SIMMONS: Smoke Richardson.
SANDERS: Smoke Richardson.
WALLACE: Richardson?
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. They was out of Lexington.
WALLACE: Was it a musical group?
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. He had a good band.
�
SIMMONS: He had every- . . . oh, yeah.
SANDERS: Had about 10, 12, 15 people.
SIMMONS: Oh, yes. [Laughing]
SANDERS: They had a saxophone and trumpets and all.
WALLACE: Was this was back in the thirties [1930's], forties
[1940's] or . . .
SANDERS: Forties [1940's]?
SIMMONS: It was either forties [1940's] or fifties [1950's].
SANDERS: And, uh, so, it's still in existence.
WALLACE: Is it helping KSU now or . . .
SANDERS: No, we . . .
SIMMONS: We help the . . . seem to me, the local high school
students . . .
WALLACE: Ah.
SIMMONS: . . . who are aspiring to go to college, either here
or wherever they . . .
SANDERS: Well, they got to go in Kentucky.
SIMMONS: Is that right? I didn't know that.
SANDERS: It's . . . it's still laid out in the rule . . .
SIMMONS: I didn't realize that.
SANDERS: . . . that they have to obtain some . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . university or college in Kentucky.
�
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, they have to win a scholarship. And when we, uh
. . . we got a scholarship fund set up for . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . anybody that's eligible to receive it. And I
think they give my cousin twice . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: . . . in the last two years.
SIMMONS: I think a lot of him. I think he's a good . . .
SANDERS: He ended up going to Morehead.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: That's where I graduated from.
SANDERS: From Morehead?
SIMMONS: Is that right? How about that.
SANDERS: But, uh, they've got to enter school to get it, see.
You just don't hand it to them.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Yeah.
SANDERS: We take it to Kentucky State and give it to the
Admission Office, to make sure that it's being applied to their
admission.
WALLACE: So, this club has probably been in existence over 50
years.
SIMMONS: Oh, yes. Yes.
�
SANDERS: Uh-huh. It started . . . Jackson Robb started it
back in the thirties [1930's].
SIMMONS: Yeah. I came here in . . .
SANDERS: Then, after . . .
SIMMONS: . . . '57 [1957] . . . '54 [1954] . . . '37 [1937], I
lived here. [Laughing]
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SIMMONS: And, uh, it was in existence then, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. He started it in '33 [1933] or 4 [1934],
somewhere back in there.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: Right after he got out of high school. And he cut
them down during the war. They didn't have but about five or six
members then.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: But they kept it intact and, uh . . .
SIMMONS: Tell him about, uh . . . are there any women
auxiliaries or . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Well, they had . . . during the war, the American
Legion Auxiliary organized under Ms. R. B. Atwood.
SANDERS: Yes.
SANDERS: She headed that up under it. I think they were
�
chartered during the second World War, and they're still in
existence.
SIMMONS: What about the . . . there was another club that men
and women belonged to.
SANDERS: Well, that's Town and Country Club.
SIMMONS: Country.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Town and Country. Yeah, that's right.
SANDERS: And, of course, Capitol City Club, they're still in
existence.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: They had formed, I guess, about 40 years ago.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: These are black organizations?
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah, umhumm.
SIMMONS: Yes.
SANDERS: And our purpose was to help anybody in the community
that needed to . . . might need.
WALLACE: Assist them in some way.
SANDERS: Help, like if somebody got burnt out or something.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Or, uh, a child needs clothing or somebody needs food
�
and stuff, that they donate to it and help them. And, uh, most
of it was from dues that they paid. They didn't have any
activities to amount to anything to raise any money.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Everything . . . in your pockets, that dues you have
to pay. Some with the Grad Club used . . . you couldn't use.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: They don't have any outside activities to raise any
money for anything.
WALLACE: Generates . . .
SANDERS: And they meet, uh, once a month. They used to meet
twice; but, now, they just only meet once a month.
WALLACE: Once a month.
SANDERS: Capitol City Club meets once a month.
WALLACE: I'm . . . I'm about done in. [Laughing] I don't
know about you. [Laughter] Could we, uh, maybe get together
again some time, if you all felt up to it?
SIMMONS: Yes.
WALLACE: I got some old maps and things I'd love to show you .
. .
SIMMONS: I tell you [inaudible].
WALLACE: If you feel like walking through memory lane again.
SIMMONS: I'm . . . I'm for anything that's going to help you.
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WALLACE: Well, I appreciate that.
SIMMONS: I'd be delighted.
WALLACE: I . . . you all have told me so much that nobody else
has really dwelled on.
SIMMONS: Is that right.
SANDERS: Ever tell you about the Eight Mile house in Bottom?
WALLACE: What now?
SANDERS: Eight Mile House.
WALLACE: No. I never heard of that. What is . . .
SIMMONS: [Laughing] I didn't know that.
SANDERS: Oh, it was a sporting house.
WALLACE: A spo- . . . a sporting . . . oh.
SIMMONS: [Laughing] I didn't know about them houses.
WALLACE: Why Eight Mile?
SANDERS: I never did know why they named it Eight Mile, but
the old person named Lloyd Bell, he was drunk one afternoon.
SIMMONS: I didn't know there was a . . .
SANDERS: And they had five or six women living in that house.
[Laughter - Simmons] And he passed there one day and about five
or six kids out on the street playing, you know. They're young
enough. He stopped and looked down and shook his head and says,
"All of these kids and none of them got no daddy." [Laughter]
They [the children] belonged to the women in the house, you see.
�
WALLACE: Houses, yeah.
SANDERS: So, they went on down the street. "That's a shame."
SIMMONS: Well, I'm . . . I'm delighted in anything I can do.
And I really appreciate Mr. Sanders coming in.
WALLACE: Oh, Mr. Sanders, you've been great. You really have.
SIMMONS: Because he was born and reared here. I came here in
1937, and I knew that he could tell you much more than I can.
And when I asked him to come, he gladly accepted and he told me
where to go get that material there and I went and got it.
WALLACE: That was so very generous of you. That's going to be
very helpful.
SIMMONS: Yes. I appreciate it because it's helpful.
WALLACE: Well, you all have been great, really.
SANDERS: Yeah. You remember . . . what's Little Willie's
mamma's name? What was her name?
SIMMONS: Little Willie Oliver.
SANDERS: Yeah. What was her name?
SIMMONS: Is it Josephine? No.
SANDERS: No. It wasn't no Josephine. Anyway, you know, she
was bootlegging, you know, years down there. And she had that
son. He was spoiled and about [inaudible] making money selling
that moonshine. So, after red whiskey came back, she continued
to sell that moonshine.
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: Well, they got her, and Judge Jeffers told her, said,
"Nannie" . . . and I think her name was Nannie.
WALLACE: Nannie Oliver?
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Said, "Now, if you come back again," said, "I'm going
to give you days. You got to quit fooling with this stuff."
"All right, Judge. All right, Judge." She went right back to
the Bottom and started bootlegging again, selling that stuff, and
they got her again. Took her back. Judge, uh, told her,
"Nannie" . . . Nellie, or whatever her name was. Nannie.
Nannie, I think it was. "I told you the last time you was up
here if you came back I'm going to give you some days and that's
what I'm going to do. I'm giving you 200-and-some-odd days in
the workhouse." She hollered, "Oh, s[hit], Judge, what you going
to do with Little Willie?" He said, "Take Little Willie with
you." [Laughter]
SIMMONS: He [inaudible].
SANDERS: He took . . . yeah, he took . . . he fixed it where
Willie could go to the workhouse every night and get out of there
in the morning and go to school.
SIMMONS: Little Willie . . . Little Willie that lives down
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here on South [inaudible] . . .
SANDERS: Oh, no, no. That was his daddy now.
WALLACE: Oh.
SIMMONS: Goodness. Yes, I know his daddy and his granddaddy.
SANDERS: Yes. But she [inaudible] right in court, "What you
going to do with Little Willie?" [Laughter] Little Willie
wasn't but about five or six or seven years old.
SIMMONS: They took you and went to the workhouse.
SANDERS: He said, "Take him with you."
WALLACE: Well, was there a woman referred to as "Baseball"
Annie?
SIMMONS: No.
SANDERS: You're talking about Eva Cox. I imagine that's who
he's talking about.
SIMMONS: Eva Cox.
SANDERS: Baseball, she sold them baseball tickets all the
time.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: Eva who now?
SANDERS: Cox.
WALLACE: Eva Cox.
SIMMONS: Eva Cox. I had forgotten her.
SANDERS: She . . . she run a sporting house, too.
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: And she had the tickets in her hat or something, I .
. . somebody . . .
SANDERS: Well, she carried that . . . tied a rag around her
head all the time. And she . . . she . . . see, she . . . she
was one of those places that was integrated way back yonder when
there wasn't no integration talked about, see.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: She had girls that were white and black working for
her.
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. You'd point out a woman on the street down
there and tell her you'd like to have her and she said, "I'll . .
. I'll have her in two or three days, just check with me." So,
old Cecil Warren . . . I know . . . Cecil swore this was the
truth here. [Laughter - Simmons] He got to Miss Eva [Cox].
Cecil was a good-looking guy, you know, handsome looking and
everything.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Got that jive.
SANDERS: Yeah. And had that jive. His mother always gave him
what he wanted, you know.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
�
SANDERS: And, uh, he pointed this white girl out in the Bottom
Ms. Eva told him, said, "Well, I'll . . . I'll get her for you."
About three or four days later, she say . . . you go in the back
way and the girl go in the front, see. She come to Cecil and
told him, said, "She'll be around at my house at three o'clock in
the afternoon." Said, "Now, you be there. And it's going to
cost you "X" amount of dollars," she told him. "I got it, Ms.
Eva. All right." "Pay your half now. Give me the money because
I don't trust you, Cecil." She made him pay him right then. He
went on around and the girl was there. The girl undressed,
rolled the covers back. Cecil said the prettiest white sheet on
the bed you'd ever laid your eyes on, and there was laid the
prettiest black snake laying up there curled up in the middle of
that bed you ever seen." Said, "I always did say," and I come
back and told her," says, "When that girl saw that snake," says,
"She left out of there running and screaming. And I went back
and told Eva, 'Eva, you put that snake in that bed on purpose.'"
WALLACE: Yeah. It sounds like a set-up.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: Uh-huh. And Cecil [inaudible]. He said her bed was
clean and she kept clean sheets and everything and she didn't
have no snakes in her house. But he was over there, and that
snake was curled up right in the middle of that bed.
�
WALLACE: When was Eva operating, back in when?
SANDERS: She operated from thirties [1930's] . . .
SIMMONS: She was operating when I came in. The first time . .
.
SANDERS: Thirty-seven [1937] on up till she died.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: But she died in the sixties [1960's], I think.
SIMMONS: I had forgotten her.
SANDERS: Yeah. And she sold baseball tickets and . . .
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Kind of a front-like, you know.
SANDERS: She'd come and knock on my door selling them tickets,
you know.
WALLACE: Humm.
SANDERS: And, if you get to hitting it too regular, she'd . .
. "Ain't going back, now. The man come down on me. You too
regular." [Laughter]
WALLACE: And, then, if you were winning money . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah. See, the ticket, she'd sell it for a
dime and she'd pay off $8 and something like that, you know, and
see, if you had the winning ticket.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And she was making about $5 or $6 on each one.
�
SIMMONS: And that was big money.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: And she went all over town. She had regular
customers she'd go to every morning and every afternoon, selling
them tickets.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: That's the way she made her living. And she come to
my house a many a morning and want a cup of coffee. And nobody
never did want her to sit down because they didn't think she was
ever too clean.
SIMMONS: Yeah. And, uh, she'd look like she never had a bath.
SANDERS: Yeah. She'd have to sit down and drink that coffee .
. .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . and she'd throw the coffee . . .
SIMMONS: I'd forgotten all about her.
SANDERS: . . . she'd stir that coffee and little bubbles would
come up on it and she'd try to get them, get them bubbles up and
drink them. Said that's money if you can get them bubbles down
[inaudible] before you drink it. That's money. [Laughter]
SIMMONS: That was Eva Cox, wasn't it?
SANDERS: Yeah, Eva Cox.
SIMMONS: Eva Cox.
�
SANDERS: And, uh, she, uh, did . . . but she always . . . my
daughter was small then and she'd always give her a quarter or
dime or 15 cents and tell her to put it in the bank.
SIMMONS: We . . . did we mention "Squeezer"? We talked about
him.
SANDERS: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: Yeah. We talked about "Squeezer".
SANDERS: We talked about "Squeezer" first.
SIMMONS: He was a great guy.
SANDERS: And, so, one day, she come . . . she had a piggy bank
about that long and about that tall, and she'd been putting all
the money in. Ms. Eva come one day and told her to get the bank.
See, how it is . . . feed the pig [piggybank]. And somebody had
done practically emptied that bank.
WALLACE: Oh.
SANDERS: Took a knife, you know, and went up through there and
. . .
WALLACE: And jabbed it out.
SANDERS: Jabbed it out. And we never had noticed it, you
know.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And I've got the bank at home right now. She never
did open that bank. It's at home right now. And, uh, in a way,
�
I think it was my nephew. He used to come by there and he knew
it, worked for the sewer.
WALLACE: The sewer?
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: And he saw it and slipped in there one day and . . .
WALLACE: Day and took some money.
SANDERS: . . . was looking and got it. But, uh, there was
thrills, sorrows and hard times . . .
SIMMONS: That's right.
SANDERS: . . . in the Bottom.
SIMMONS: But that's one thing I can say about the people in
the Bottom. They cling together.
SANDERS: Oh, yeah.
SIMMONS: They always hung in there together.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: What . . . what kept them together, just because they
lived together?
SIMMONS: They had the same thing in common. They didn't have
anything.
SANDERS: Everybody knowed everybody.
SIMMONS: You talk about how I can't give you anything but
love?
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
SIMMONS: They had it. They had it.
SANDERS: I remember Dr. Cheaney's wife, lives down the street
here right now . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: She lived down under me.
SIMMONS: That's right. I'd forgotten that.
SANDERS: And, uh, she was teaching school at Mayo-Underwood at
the time and Dr. Cheaney was in the Navy.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: During the war. And the night my daughter was born,
I didn't have a telephone. Couldn't afford one. She had the
only telephone in the building.
SIMMONS: My, my.
SANDERS: There was three apartments in the building. She was
the only one that had a phone.
SIMMONS: Yes.
SANDERS: So, I had taken my wife to the hospital, Winnie A.
Scott Hospital . . .
SIMMONS: You heard about Winnie A. Scott Hospital.
WALLACE: Yes.
SIMMONS: The blacks only.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: And if they operated on you in a white hospital
�
because they didn't have the facilities in the black, they had to
transfer you to the black hospital as soon as that operation was
over.
WALLACE: Now, where was the black hospital?
SIMMONS: On Second Street.
SANDERS: On Second Street.
WALLACE: Second Street.
SIMMONS: Right.
SANDERS: So, I had taken her over there, you know, because she
was laboring; and they wasn't going to let me stay because they
was strict then, back in them days. They wouldn't let you hang
around the hospital like they do now. So, I told them to call up
Ms. Cheaney and I lived upstairs and she'd get in contact with
me. It was cold that night, blue-blaze cold. And I left ever
furnace in the house. I had these open . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: . . . gas stoves, you know, that it'd be warm in case
I had to get up at three or four o'clock in the morning. I went
on to bed. She claims she like to tore my back door down trying
to rouse me that night.
SIMMONS: You was something . . .
SANDERS: And she still says that I wasn't at home that night.
[Laughter] I said, "Ms. Cheaney, I was right there laying . . .
�
waiting, in case."
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: Said they couldn't . . . "Much noise as I made and
you couldn't wake?" I got up the next morning and I had a wagon
I drove, a covered wagon you haul milk and stuff in. There was a
note square on that stairwell, 'Come to the hospital
immediately'". Well, I don't know what time it was put there or
nothing. But I knew I couldn't get in the hospital at five
o'clock in the morning.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: That's the time I went to work.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: So, I went on to work and milked my cows and came to
the house, and I always did eat breakfast out to the house. And
she told . . . I asked her could I use the phone to call the
hospital and I had to take my wife to the hospital last night and
she . . . so, I called and the nurse said, "You had a great big
fine daughter last night and she's doing fine, she and your wife
both." And I said, "When can I see her?" "Well, you can come by
most any time." I said, "I'll be right there." It was about
eight o'clock. So, it was eight o'clock that morning. She was
born at three o'clock in the morning, but it was eight o'clock
before I ever got to see her. [Laughter - Simmons]
�
WALLACE: Humm.
SANDERS: And Ms. Cheaney swears right today . . .
SIMMONS: That you wasn't there.
SANDERS: And she . . . and she still kidding me. "But you
wasn't home now." "Don't tell me, Ms. Cheaney . . ." [Laughter]
But she was . . . she was standing around on the porch one night
and the water was coming up. You know, people watched water, you
know. They were hoping it ain't going to come no further and
stand there and watch it, you know, until the last minute before
they start moving anything.
WALLACE: Umm.
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah.
SANDERS: And, of course, she didn't want to lose her stuff.
And the water had gotten out in front of the house about that
deep out in the street. And she was laying on the banister
looking at it and talking to people walking up and down the
street. Old man Hatchet, do you remember him?
SIMMONS: Oh, yeah. I remember Hatchet used to live down on
the corner of Mero and . . . and, uh, Wilkinson.
SANDERS: Yeah. He come by about half . . .
SIMMONS: He was an ex-con.
SANDERS: . . . and looked at her and said, "Now, lady, . . ."
She was scared to death of him. "Now, what are you standing out
�
here for, losing your sleep? Now, you know if this water gets up
here, we're not going to let . . . not going to let anything
happen to you."
SIMMONS: Yes.
SANDERS: "You just go in your house and get your sleep so you
can go to school in the morning. We'll take care of you. Don't
you worry about nothing."
SIMMONS: Yes. Yes.
SANDERS: She told me after it, said, "I was scared to death of
that old man and I went on down and stayed there, too."
[Laughter]
SIMMONS: We used to buy collard greens from him.
SANDERS: Yeah.
SIMMONS: He used to grow collard greens there on the corner.
WALLACE: Well, let's, uh . . . let's try and get back together
again. So . . . if I haven't worn you out on it.
SIMMONS: No. I . . .
SANDERS: No. No.
SIMMONS: I . . . I've enjoyed it because I'm learning a lot
that I didn't know, from Henry, because he is a native.
WALLACE: Well, and I've learned a lot, too, see. I didn't
know about the Grad Club or any of these . . .
SIMMONS: Yes. Yeah.
�
WALLACE: . . . social things, and nobody . . . people know
some of the stories about either the violence or the ladies . . .
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . but they're a little shy to talk about it.
SIMMONS: Yes.
WALLACE: And . . . and I'm not as interested maybe in that
part of it as . . . as some of the things you all have told me
about some of the characters, like "Squeezer" and "Black Cat" and
some of the other people. So, let's try and get back together,
and I'll have some old maps. I found some old maps from the
forties [1940's] that have the streets and . . .
SANDERS: Oh, yeah?
SIMMONS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . all the old houses and all, and we can maybe
point some things out.
SIMMONS: I'm thinking about around here, you know it used to
be a . . . street there going by the Old Capitol and . . .
SANDERS: Catfish Alley [Madison Street]?
WALLACE: Yeah. Catfish Alley.
SIMMONS: Yeah, yeah.
SANDERS: They had an alley down in there named Catfish Alley.
SIMMONS: Yes, yes.
SANDERS: It would run from Broadway down to the Bottom, down
�
through the Bottom there and then, it changed name after it
passed Clinton.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: It was Center Street [Catfish Alley] after that.
SIMMONS: Center Street, yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah, after it passed; but it was Catfish up on the
other end.
WALLACE: On this end.
SIMMONS: Like Petticoat Lane. [Laughing]
SANDERS: Petticoat Lane. Well, Petticoat Lane's still down
there.
SIMMONS: Yeah.
SANDERS: At least, up on this end.
SIMMONS: They didn't like the name Petticoat Lane when they
lived down there.
WALLACE: Does Petticoat Long and Long eventually go together?
SIMMONS: No.
SANDERS: Oh, [inaudible].
[End of Interview]
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