1992OH01.8 Graham
Frankfort’s Craw Oral History Project
Interview with James T. Graham.
May 21,1991.
Conducted by James Wallace
© 1991 Kentucky Oral History Commission
Kentucky Historical Society
Kentucky Oral History Commission
100 W. Broadway ( Frankfort, KY 40601
502-564-1792 ( (fax) 502-564-0475 ( history.ky.gov
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should be corroborated with the original audio recording if possible.The following interview is an unrehearsed interview with
James T. Graham for "Frankfort's 'Craw:' An African-American
Community Remembered." The interview was conducted by James E.
Wallace in Frankfort, Kentucky, May 21, 1991.
[An interview with James T. Graham]
WALLACE: Let's see. Today is Tuesday, May the 21st . . .
GRAHAM: First, un-huh.
WALLACE: We're at the home here of Mr. James T. Graham to talk
a little bit about Bottom. Mr. Graham, are you a native of
Frankfort?
GRAHAM: I'm a native of Frankfort. I was born and raised
right here, 64 years old; almost 65.
WALLACE: [Laughter] Where were you born in Frankfort?
GRAHAM: I was born at the next door to the house that I lived
in. I lived at 609 . . . I was born at 609 Washington Street.
WALLACE: Okay. Would that have been . . .
GRAHAM: Uh, that's between, uh, Hill Street . . .
WALLACE: And Mero?
GRAHAM: . . . and Mero.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
GRAHAM: Umhumm, yeah.
�
WALLACE: When you remember your early years there at
Washington Street, uh, tell me a little bit about the house you
grew up in, your family?
GRAHAM: Well, we, uh, rented from a fellow called Mr. Crouse,
and, uh, in later years, he gave us an opportunity to buy the
house. It was just a small three-room house. There was my
father and my mother and there was . . . I had a brother by the
name of Paul. That was . . . it was the fifth house from the
corner of Mero Street.
WALLACE: So, you were born there in '27 [1927]?
GRAHAM: 1926.
WALLACE: Twenty-six [1926], okay.
GRAHAM: 1926. June the 24th, 1926.
WALLACE: Was the house just a little wooden frame or . . .
GRAHAM: Just a little wooden frame house.
WALLACE: Did you all have electric or plumbing or . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah. We had . . . we got electric later and we got
plumbing later, you know. Actually, when we started out, we had
lamps. Used to have . . . that was one of our early jobs was
cleaning out these lamps with the . . . with the newspaper . . .
WALLACE: Like kerosene?
GRAHAM: Kerosene, yeah.
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
GRAHAM: Yeah. And, uh, it was, I guess, probably in, uh, it
was almost the forties [1940s] before we got electricity.
WALLACE: When you remember those early years, uh, was your
daddy working and . . .
GRAHAM: Well, my father . . . my mother was a, uh,
seamstress. She made, actually made our own clothes.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: Made our clothes every year up until we were about,
say, probably 14, 15 years old. [Laughing]
WALLACE: Did she work in the home?
GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah. She worked . . . well, no, she worked in
the home and she worked at . . . when the Kathryn Shoppe was
opened, she . . . I think the first . . . the second week it was
open, uh, Ms. Kathryn Roberts hired her as a seamstress and she
stayed there for 30-some years.
WALLACE: Good grief. What was her name?
GRAHAM: Her name was Anne Graham.
WALLACE: Anne Graham.
GRAHAM: Anne Graham. And my father, he was like a, kind of
like a hustler, I guess, you'd have to call that. [Laughter -
Wallace] And he'd go from job to job. He went . . . he worked
with Hillenmeyer for a while. You know . . .
WALLACE: Yeah, the nursery.
�
GRAHAM: The nursery when they, uh, when they sodded the
Capitol.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: You know, he worked down there doing that, doing
that. Then, he was a bartender for Mike Deakins. He worked in
the whiskey store for Mike Deakins.
WALLACE: Deakins. Can you . . . I've heard of Mike Deakins.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Can you describe it to me, where it was and what it
looked like?
GRAHAM: Well, Mike Deakins was a . . . had a place, a little
whiskey store right at the . . . on the other side of Clinton
Street going toward Broadway. And, uh, as a . . . he had . . .
well, at that time, that was the only whiskey store. George
Taylor bought all . . . bought Mike Deakins out.
WALLACE: Deakins, umhumm.
GRAHAM: Yeah, after . . . even before he died, un-huh. But
that was the . . . the whiskey store moved three different
places. They had two little whiskey stores there when George
Taylor had it. He had one on the left-hand side of . . . in
between Broadway, and he had one on the right-hand side . . .
WALLACE: Broadway.
GRAHAM: . . . of Washington Street.
�
WALLACE: Where Washington ran . . .
GRAHAM: Washington, right, yeah, right.
WALLACE: When was your dad working down there?
GRAHAM: Well, he worked . . . he worked there when he was . .
. well, actually working there when he had a . . . he had a
stroke . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: . . . in the sixties [1960s]. And, uh, that was . .
. you know, before the flood because he died in '66 [1966]. But
this was all during the time of the . . . when they were going
through the planning stage of . . . of urban renewal.
WALLACE: Umhumm. When you were growing up, the folk down
there, was it mainly black or was it whites and blacks living
together?
GRAHAM: No. It was blacks and whites. On the corner where I
lived in between . . . I remember we had one white family which
was the Marshalls there and which we was just like sisters and
brothers, you know.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
GRAHAM: I mean, if . . . if you . . . you know, the food was
a little light. You know, you'd just put a little more water in
the beans and everybody eating. You know, that was the . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
GRAHAM: That was the type thing, the kind of relationship
that we had. And, of course, I had several . . . on Wilkinson
Street and on Hill Street in certain sections, there was three or
four families, you know . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . that was mixed there.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: They had black and white on the far side of Hill
Street was some of them. We had some in the middle of Clinton
Street . . . not Clinton, but . . . well, on the far side of
Clinton, on one side, there was about five families.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And on the other side, it was about two families of
whites. But that was the way it was, I mean, it was from
Washington Street to Wilkinson Street. Then, on the other end on
Wilkinson Street proper in between . . . behind Mayo-Underwood
all the way up to the edge of Hill Street, see, there was . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . still there was a little mixture of . . .
WALLACE: Ms. Fallis and her people.
GRAHAM: Ms. Fallis. See, John Fallis and some of his, uh . .
. he lived right on the corner there of Hill and . . . and . . .
and Wilkinson Street.
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And across from that was Ms. Ruby Jackson, which was
black. And, then, like I say, there was always the Fallises,
Bixie [Benjamin] and all of them.
WALLACE: Oh, yeah.
GRAHAM: Back in around there. We had one that ran for a
representative
WALLACE: Carlos.
GRAHAM: Carlos.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: Yeah, you know that by now, then.
WALLACE: Well, Bixie [Benjamin], I talked to Vivian.
GRAHAM: Right.
WALLACE: You remember Vivian?
GRAHAM: Right.
WALLACE: And those Fallises were wild boys.
GRAHAM: They were wild. The old man was something else. He
. . . he had a . . . he had a certain rule that everybody
followed. [Laughing] That was one of the things that . . .
WALLACE: What do you mean when you say a certain rule?
GRAHAM: Well, he . . . just like I say. He just . . . he
treated everybody . . . as long as you had respect, he respected
you and he wouldn't let anybody mistreat you, you know what I
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mean . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . as far as kids were concerned. A lot of times,
you know, like I say, they . . . they would run . . . he had
little job that seemed to pay him, but I used to . . . a lot of
times, I made a little money emptying slop jars . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: . . . believe it or not. [Laughter]
WALLACE: Did you?
GRAHAM: Then, your father would take it away from you, you
know. [Laughter]
WALLACE: You were working for Fallis emptying slop jars?
GRAHAM: Well, I never . . . some of the other people down
there. There was a lady called Ida Howard. She . . . I used to
. . . I worked for "Frog" Woods [Huston K. Woods] at a grocery,
and, uh, but I delivered a lot of groceries to this lady called
Ida Howard.
WALLACE: I've heard that her reputation might . . .
GRAHAM: Reputation wasn't, right, a little . . . little . . .
little devious.
WALLACE: Yeah. [Laughter - Graham] As a matter of fact,
didn't she and Mr. Fallis have a relationship?
GRAHAM: Yeah.
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: They finally did.
WALLACE: Where was "Frog" Wood's [Huston K. Woods] place?
GRAHAM: "Frog" Woods was at the corner of . . . of Mero and
Washington Street. And Alonzo Lewis [Alonzo A. Lewis] was on the
other corner of Washington . . . I mean, of Wilkinson and Mero.
And, then, on the other corner of . . . going into the . . .
well, St. Clair was Triplett's Grocery [Eugene P. Triplett].
WALLACE: Triplett's Grocery.
GRAHAM: Grocery, yeah.
WALLACE: What was Alonzo Lewis's place, a grocery, too?
GRAHAM: He was a grocery, too. All three of those were
grocery stores. Now, most of the blacks, they . . . between them
and Sull- . . . the two Sullivan's. One of the Sullivan stores
was across from John Fallis.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
GRAHAM: Yeah. There was a little island that ran in between
there, just a little half a street. And that was Nell Sullivan
that ran that one.
WALLACE: Nell?
GRAHAM: Nell Sullivan . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: . . . was who run that and she ran that store. And,
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like I say, these . . . all of these four stores or these five
stores, more or less, catered to the black.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And, well, you know, that was . . . that ran both
ways. You got your groceries usually on the ticket, uh . . .
WALLACE: They'd let you run a tab?
GRAHAM: And you'd run a tab. They'd let you run a tab. All
of them were very nice . . .
WALLACE: Were those black-owned and operated?
GRAHAM: Oh, no, they were all white-owned . . .
WALLACE: White.
GRAHAM: . . . and operated. But all of them had black
delivery boys or, you know, or sometimes some of them even had
black clerks that worked . . .
WALLACE: Those were places you could get the jobs.
GRAHAM: The jobs, right. That was one of the places they'd
let you. That wasn't a lot of money, but I guess it paid $6 a
week.
WALLACE: Oh. [Laughing - Graham] Well, your rent was
probably $3 a week . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah, well . . .
WALLACE: . . . or five.
GRAHAM: . . . at that time, I mean, in . . . in the . . .
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WALLACE: Would that have been the forties [1940s] . . .
GRAHAM: . . . house that we lived, I mean, we . . . we paid
about $20 a month.
WALLACE: Month.
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: And, then, of course, it went up to about $35 a
month. After . . . well, that's all during the childhood days.
And, then, . . .
WALLACE: 1930's or so.
GRAHAM: Yeah, thirties [1930s], and, then, . . . thirties
[1930s] and the early forties [1940s].
WALLACE: Do you remember the '37 [1937] flood?
GRAHAM: Very much so.
WALLACE: What happened?
GRAHAM: The thirty flood . . . the '37 [1937] flood, I rode
in a boat with my father over the top of my house.
WALLACE: Good grief.
GRAHAM: Over the top of my house, of our . . . the house that
I lived in, 611 Washington Street. The house next to that was a
two-story house. And the boat was up to the window in the . . .
WALLACE: Second story.
GRAHAM: . . . second story of it, yes. And I can remember
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that very well.
WALLACE: Did you all go back in after the water went down?
GRAHAM: After the water went down, we went in and cleaned,
you know, we washed and soaked and did all of this trying to get
the . . .
WALLACE: Mud out.
GRAHAM: . . . mud out of it. We went back every time up
until '62 [1962] flood is the one that we never did go back.
WALLACE: Why did . . . why did you go back? I mean, all of
the trouble . . .
GRAHAM: Well, at that time, we had bought the house.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: We had bought the house, and, uh . . . well, not in .
. . in '37 [1937]. We bought the house in '40-something
[1940-something]. But, uh, we went back and we added . . . it
was a blessing in a way because that's when we put the
electricity in and we built the . . . we fixed the porch and
built a . . .
WALLACE: You mean after '37 [1937]?
GRAHAM: Yeah. We built this . . . we built this toilet on
the . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . where the porch was.
�
WALLACE: Kind of a frost-free outdoor toilet?
GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah. See, we had . . . that's when . . . no,
this was one of those . . . we did a tub and everything in there
at that particular time. That was . . . it was in the forties
(1940s].
WALLACE: Forties [1940s].
GRAHAM: It was in the forties [1940s]. It was in the
forties [1940s].
WALLACE: Let me ask you about the school days.
GRAHAM: All right.
WALLACE: Did you go to Mayo-Underwood?
GRAHAM: I went to Mayo-Underwood. I started out in
kindergarten and they . . . because, uh, that was . . . Mayo-
Underwood had just . . . that was a . . . had been built. It
opened up the year that I could go to kindergarten.
WALLACE: About '32 [1932], maybe.
GRAHAM: Yeah, right. That's right. I was just . . . I was
six . . . well, now, really, they let me go . . . then, my
birthday was in June, and they let me start actually in
kindergarten, I was just five years old. I was in the first
kindergarten class.
WALLACE: Class, ahh.
GRAHAM: And Ms. Johnson. I never will forget that. And,
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then, I, uh, stayed in school until, uh, I went in to the war. I
left in the tenth grade and went to service. And, then, I came
back in '46 [1946] and went to . . . went back to finish high
school.
WALLACE: What outfit did you join up with?
GRAHAM: I was in the . . . well, I went in the Navy. I was
in the, uh . . . I went to the Great Lakes in the Navy. And,
then, the Navy transferred me to the CB's.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: And I was in the CB's. I went to the 34th in CB's.
And I went to (inaudible] California. And from [inaudible]
California strictly right on to Okinawa.
WALLACE: Ahh, man. [Laughter] Did you make it in time for
the big . . .
GRAHAM: Well, we got in there at the end. You know, they
was, uh, they was winding down, but I got all of the action I
wanted.
WALLACE: You wanted. [Laughter]
GRAHAM: Actually when the . . . the day that we left, uh,
from Okinawa, there was several Japanese surrendered that had
been . . .
WALLACE: Yeah, kind of holding . . .
GRAHAM: . . . didn't know that the war was over.
�
WALLACE: Yeah. [Laughing - Graham] You must have only been
16 or 17 years old.
GRAHAM: I was 18 years old. I was 19 . . . I stayed overseas
until I was, uh, twenty- . . . I was twenty- . . . I got back
here on the 19th of '46 [1946], and I turned, uh, 20 on the 24th.
[Laughing]
WALLACE: Ahh. Well, some of the vets I've talked to left
Frankfort and went north for jobs.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: But you stayed.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Why?
GRAHAM: Well, I left at one time in 1951. I left and went to
Dayton and . . . and my wife, you know, wanted to . . . after we
got married. Then, we got married in '48 [1948] and had two kids
right quick. And I decided to go to Dayton . . . went to . . .
at, uh . . . right at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base . . .
WALLACE: Oh, yeah.
GRAHAM: . . . for two years. And we just never could get . .
. she could have got . . . come up there with a better job than I
could because one of her high school friends was in a position in
a . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
GRAHAM: . . . treadmill type thing. But we just kept
tickling about it and just as I say it was stuffing me to come
back and sometimes I wouldn't only be off on 24 hours.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: And, uh, it was right then only one day a week. I
was on security at, uh, Wright-Patterson.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: We was only off one day a week.
WALLACE: Not enough to even come down and visit your family.
GRAHAM: Yeah. See, when I'd come down, you know, I got the
train and just come in and go right back, you know.
WALLACE: So, when did you come on back to Frankfort?
GRAHAM: I came back . . . I finally got a transfer. Well, I
was working on a transfer to go to work at [inaudible] Farm, in,
uh, in Lexington.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And, uh, meanwhile, I had gone to sleep on the job.
WALLACE: Ahh. [Laughter]
GRAHAM: So, they, uh, . . . you know, I was in a little
trouble there. So, rather than to . . . you know, you got
dismissed that you kindly got . . . well, just like I say, it was
one of those times. I had gone back to the . . . jump down here
and, uh, try to go back and go to work.
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And I . . .
WALLACE: You hadn't slept for 24 hours probably.
GRAHAM: And it just finally got . . . it got to me.
[Laughing]
WALLACE: Well, when you came back here, where . . . where did
you come back to?
GRAHAM: I went to work at the state.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: I went to work at the state. Uh, that was in, uh,
uh . . . I worked for the state for the Division of Publicity.
WALLACE: Oh, yeah.
GRAHAM: For . . . at the time, that was all under
Conservation at the time when the end of the war. And I worked
at . . . I had a little experience of . . . well, really, before
that, I had worked for the Department of Education for two years,
and I was one of the first that . . . of any kind that taught the
multilith [ograph] machine.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
GRAHAM: So, I . . .
WALLACE: Printing.
GRAHAM: Yeah, printing. I had to . . . I had this guy that
was selling these machines. In other words, I'd go around and
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demonstrate them . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . to the other departments, too. I think we
sold . . . I was probably in that a couple of years. Believe it
or not, I'd get $25 to demonstrate the machines and, uh, they'd
get . . . I think in maybe in a period of seven or eight months,
they sold maybe 20 of those things.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: It was what they called the, you know, addressograph
at that time.
WALLACE: Were you living down in Bottom when you came back?
GRAHAM: I was living in the Bottom. I still was living in
the Bottom. I lived at 308 Blanton Street after we got married.
And prior to marrying I was living, I was renting from Bob
Dreyer, Ms. Dreyer, that lived on the corner of, uh, of . . .
that's Ann and Clinton Street, at the corner there.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
GRAHAM: Because, now, he had a groc- . . . her husband had
had a grocery that was on the corner. Bryant had bought that
grocery out. That was on the lower end. There was Center . . .
Blanton Street, we called it, and . . . and St. Clair.
WALLACE: Yeah, okay. What was the name of the grocery?
GRAHAM: It was Bryant's Grocery then.
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WALLACE: Bryant's Grocery.
GRAHAM: But it was . . . it was Bob Dreyer's first. They had
always . . . Ms. Dreyer and all of them . . . Bob and even Sam
worked in that little grocery there . . .
WALLACE: In that grocery.
GRAHAM: . . . at the corner. They had this house right just
a little . . . right on Blanton Street and that's what . . .
they rented that, a little . . . had a little four-room house.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Now, that house had the toilet that when you got up
off of it . . . have you heard of the tank toilets that they had
then?
WALLACE: No. How did they work?
GRAHAM: People had it even inside the house. Boy, that was a
set-up there. You sat on the stool and, then, when you got up,
it flushed itself.
WALLACE: Itself, yeah. [Laughter]
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, I heard it was sort of a rare thing . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . to have indoor plumbing.
GRAHAM: Well, we just had . . . at that time on that house .
. . in that particular stretch, I'd say that there probably was
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only maybe five houses that any type of plumbing in them down
there in that area. Most of them still had a lot of outdoor
plumbing.
WALLACE: Did the people that lived down there refer to the
area as Bottom or Craw, or would that have been considered
derogatory?
GRAHAM: Well, actually, you had two . . . the Craw and the
Bottom were one and the same in a sense that some streets, you
know, they . . . some sections of the streets wouldn't have been
called the Craw. But, you know, usually any people referring to
it, they referred to the whole thing as the Bottom.
WALLACE: Well, what . . . what sections were Craw?
GRAHAM: Actually, the one street was the street from . . .
from Broadway to . . to, uh, actually to Mero . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: . . . was actually the part of it that was called the
Bottom. Really, it didn't go all the way down to the end of
Mero Street. They would always just classify that section
between about half a block down to Madison Street and about
halfway down to where those houses I was showing you here.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: That, uh . . . that was . . . at the half of this
block here, right at this street . . .
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WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . going down Clinton . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . would be . . . and these are the houses right
there in that area.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: That's the little old places running across . . .
that ran up to the trestle.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: There's a little alley there . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . that ran from Clinton Street to Broadway.
WALLACE: Right.
GRAHAM: And that's what they classified . . . all of that was
classified as the Bottom.
WALLACE: Bottom.
GRAHAM: That was the Bottom.
WALLACE: Were people who lived in the Bottom, were they sort
of a stable neighborhood or were there people coming and going
all the time or . . .
GRAHAM: Well, you know, a lot of . . . the whole thing was
that, uh, the people in the Bottom that actually lived in the
Bottom, uh, they wouldn't . . . they wouldn't cause any trouble.
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It was the people that came a-visiting that caused . . . usually
created all of the problem.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: Because, I mean, it was a good rapport. You had a
good sense . . . as I say, people cared about each other. You
know what I mean?
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: If there's a . . . if a family was in need, these
people even what you'd call the hustlers and the gamblers, the .
. . the neighbors, they'd get a pot together, you know, and
they . . .
WALLACE: Help them out.
GRAHAM: . . . just provided . . . would just take . . .
they'd take the money and no . . . no strings attached and they'd
help anybody out. I mean, if there was a sickness or a death or
whatever, you know. You didn't have . . .
WALLACE: So, trouble came in from the outside.
GRAHAM: Outside, really.
WALLACE: What brought those people in from the outside?
GRAHAM: Well, it was . . . it was fascinating, you know. You
had call girls or house of ill repute, as you say. You had these
two or three houses there that was . . .
WALLACE: Where were they, on Center or . . .
�
GRAHAM: They were really off of, uh . . . well, you had one,
you had two probably right in the heart of Bottom, that was
Clinton Street. And you had . . . that was, like, some of them,
you had to bring your own . . . you had to go to these joints and
pick up a lady . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: . . . this is what they would do and they'd go down
and this guy would run, like, a little . . . he'd furnish rooms,
you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Then, you had the places where that the girls was
already there, you know. And, uh, that was . . . that was the
type thing that, uh . . . and the thing . . . the bad part about
it was that I always . . . see, the rich people would come in and
do their little dirt, the girlies . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: And, then, they were gone and it was over, you know.
I mean, they . . . I mean, some of the finest families in
Frankfort . . .
WALLACE: Frankfort.
GRAHAM: . . . well, you . . . you . . . you see them now and
see them then, you know. [Laughter]
WALLACE: I imagine that makes it a little . . .
�
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, they're probably the same ones that condemned
the people who lived down in the Bottom.
GRAHAM: Exactly, exactly right. And it was the same way that
we had the problem with the people at South Frankfort and . . .
and what we call the Hill. See, they would come down and raise
all of this sand in the Bottom, and, then, they'd go home free as
a breeze. I mean, you know . . .
WALLACE: Where was the Hill?
GRAHAM: The Hill was the campus. I mean, it was the people
that lived . . .
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
GRAHAM: . . . on East Main and, uh, because you had some
people that had some fine homes there. Some of your . . . you
know, your craft people, the black craft, the brick layers and
stone masons . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . that lived and had, you know, more or less had
money every day, you know, at that time.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: That trade was good, you know. And, then, you had
some of your business people that, uh, that, uh, you know, they'd
come down and raise a whole lot of sand . . .
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . and, then, they're gone, you know. [Laughing]
WALLACE: So, as far as the violence, it was more or less
confined to maybe people getting intoxicated . . .
GRAHAM: -cated, right, exactly right.
WALLACE: . . . at joints or something.
GRAHAM: That was precisely the thing that would happen. And,
say, . . .
WALLACE: Well, you . . .
GRAHAM: . . . well, you had, uh, you had three . . . well,
you had three churches. Your Corinthian Church was on the corner
. . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: . . . it was on Mero Street there, which was a very
big church. And, I mean, it had a very good following, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: As I said, in this particular area, you had, uh,
maybe five teachers that . . . that lived in there. And, like I
say, even though they lived in the Bottom, they were not
basically affected by the Bottom.
WALLACE: What was the name . . . do you remember the teachers'
names? I'm curious.
GRAHAM: Well, you'd have Ms. Alice Simpson . . . Ms. Alice
�
Simpson and Ms. . . . and Ms. Pattie Simpson.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Believe it or not, they lived in this house right
here, right next to the Sullivan's . . .
WALLACE: Grocery.
GRAHAM: . . . Grocery. There was a house that sat back, and,
then, they lived in it. You could see the big house right there.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: That was their big house that they lived in.
WALLACE: Was Alice the principal at Mayo . . .
GRAHAM: Alice was . . . no, Alice at one time was . . . she
taught at . . . at, uh, Rosenwald [School].
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
GRAHAM: Okay.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: Then, you had Ms. Alice Samuels who lived right two
doors from the Craw itself. I mean, she lived . . . there was a
restaurant which was the Kozy Korner where . . .
WALLACE: Okay. Where is Kozy Korner?
GRAHAM: It's on the corner . . .
WALLACE: Corner . . .
GRAHAM: . . . caddy-cornered from the American Legion, the
big building you were talking about.
�
WALLACE: Okay. Clinton and Washington?
GRAHAM: Clinton and Washington.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: All right. They lived . . . there was another house,
some small houses in between that, and they lived in the third
house going back toward the Hill Street . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: . . . on . . . on Washington Street. Yeah. They
lived there because, uh, she and her mother and the whole family
lived in that big house, which was one of the best kept, I mean,
houses on that street in that section.
WALLACE: Well, let me . . . let me say this to you. I've
heard people refer to that area, the Bottom area, as a slum.
GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: Is that accurate?
GRAHAM: Well, it's accurate to a certain extent because if
you took the whole picture, I mean, or you took the number of
houses that, uh, that were run-down. Uh, but you had some people
that had a little pride that they . . . they would do paint, you
know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: But that was the only thing. You might have a house
that . . . that was well kept, and, then, the house next to that
�
would be, uh, uh, run-down, I mean, it just dilapidated on their
property. See, you had a man we called . . . a man . . . the
three men that owned most of the property down there was Dooley
Moss (Dulin Moss].
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: Dooley Moss, which was a jack-leg lawyer.
WALLACE: Yeah. I've heard a lot about Dooley.
GRAHAM: Yeah. And he's . . . he's the man that broke my
grandfather's will. This was the man that broke my grandfather's
will. My grandfather . . . my grandfather owned . . . actually
owned where Montrose Park is right now.
WALLACE: Good grief. [Laughter - Graham] Owned that whole
area?
GRAHAM: He owned that area. They raised that area. They
kept dumping . . . dumping dirt until they raised that area.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: But that was . . . there was two houses there in the
front and his brother lived in one of them and he lived in . . .
he lived on Hill Street. He had that property there.
WALLACE: What did Dulin do? Did he break . . . how . . .
GRAHAM: Well, he broke the will which Pat Sullivan was the
administrator of this will. I don't know how my grandfather came
into this money or how he would come up with the particular
�
things, but he evidently was a pretty smart businessman, you
know, of some type. I don't know how, but he, you know, at least
he'd bought . . . they'd wind up with a lot of property.
WALLACE: What was your grandfather's name?
GRAHAM: His name was Thomas Graham.
WALLACE: Thomas Graham.
GRAHAM: Thomas Graham. Thomas Graham.
WALLACE: So, Moss broke the will and the property went . . .
GRAHAM: It went to . . . it . . . well, my . . . my
grandmother by marriage was . . . they could pay for a divorce in
installment plan.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: Well, when he died, they, uh, did not, uh . . . she
hadn't finished paying for the . . . for the . . . and he had
left his . . . he had two sons, my father and another, Morgan
Graham. And, uh, he left . . . he left them a dollar apiece.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And he left his total estate to my brother and I when
we'd become 21 that we would inherit this. So, uh, that . . .
but, you know, there was a lot of times we needed school clothes
and we needed things like that. So, they would dish out a
certain amount of money.
WALLACE: The executors?
�
GRAHAM: Executor, right. So, when we got . . . did get 21,
after I got out of service, we got 21, there was very little
money left.
WALLACE: Left.
GRAHAM: But, uh . . .
WALLACE: What were the other men that owned a lot of property
in Bottom? You said there was three.
GRAHAM: Well, the other fellows, it was, uh, they were called
the . . . the . . . Rufus, Rufus [Rupert Apartments, 400-404 W.
Broadway]. They had the houses . . . the big houses up on the
corner of . . . they were . . . they started at the corner of
Broadway and . . . on this side of the railroad track.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Broadway and, uh, and, uh, and Washington. And they
ran all the way down . . . they had about five apartment houses .
. . . four . . . I think it was four apartment houses going
toward Wilkinson Street. Then, they had all of these other
houses in front of the school.
WALLACE: Hmm.
GRAHAM: They had . . .
WALLACE: That's a name I hadn't heard before, Rufus [Joseph
Rupert]. That's the last name?
GRAHAM: That was their name, Rufus. They . . . they . . .
�
WALLACE: They're still in town?
GRAHAM: Oh, they've been . . . they've been dead.
WALLACE: Oh.
GRAHAM: They died . . . one . . . whatever the, uh . . . now,
these were all white. They were, uh, because the . . . you . .
. if you wanted the black landowners, of course, across from the
school, you had Ernest Wooldridge.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Okay.
WALLACE: John Buckner owned . . .
GRAHAM: John Buckner. He had . . . had the same thing over
there, you know, like . . . oh, these houses, like I say, you
know. I don't know whether you . . . anybody had told you but
the sign they used to have . . . that they had in the courthouse
square, that he bought that sign. And that's what he refurbished
a bunch of his houses with was that . . .
WALLACE: Sign?
GRAHAM: That sign that had all of the veterans' names in
Franklin County on it. I mean, he . . .
WALLACE: John Buckner did?
GRAHAM: John Buckner. He bought that sign and that's what he
. . . he used that lumber. He'd buy old houses when they'd tear
them down and made . . .
�
WALLACE: Well, did these men keep up their property or is that
why . . .
GRAHAM: Well, they'd . . . they'd . . . they'd . . . some of
them tried.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Earl Tracy. Earl Tracy had quite a bit, and . . .
and, of course, like I say, some of them didn't . . . the thing
that teed me off about the whole nine yards was that the people
that were trying to maintain and doing their . . . a lot of
people had put quite a bit of hard-earned money into the houses
when . . . when it became final [inaudible], you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Now, this is a long-going . . . long-going thing
that, uh, like Ms. Holmes that owned their house. I could name
you, I'd say, maybe 25 people that owned, that actually owned
their house.
WALLACE: Finally paid off their house.
GRAHAM: That finally paid off their homes. And, uh, so, if
they came in with a deal, they wanted everybody to put up $200.
Even the husbands and wives to try to save it. Just like her
mother, she had owned two houses. She had already owned two
houses that she lived in, and, then, another house that she was
renting. And, uh, as I say, when you . . . if you didn't sell,
�
those houses mysteriously got burnt.
WALLACE: Well, that's what, I think, your wife told me.
GRAHAM: They would get burnt. They . . . they were torched.
And the fire department would be right there waiting. They'd see
that they burned all the way down, you know. They would be on
the scene . . .
WALLACE: If you were a property owner and holding out for a
better price . . .
GRAHAM: They also knew how much insurance you had. So, when
you didn't . . . when you paid . . . when they paid, whatever the
insurance company paid you for the . . . for the fire, that was
deducted out of the . . .
WALLACE: The proceeds of the . . .
GRAHAM: . . . proceeds there, which meant that they were
always less.
WALLACE: You said something that caught my attention. You
said they wanted everybody to contribute $200 apiece to save
something.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: What . . . what was the deal there? I don't
understand.
GRAHAM: Well, they . . . they had these lawyers that came
from Washington, D.C. that were going to try to fight this. And
�
they . . .
WALLACE: Who . . . who got the lawyers?
GRAHAM: Well, uh, I guess some of the leadership in town,
they called themselves, was going to try to get it, you know.
They never came back. There was never anything done about that.
WALLACE: Was that . . .
[End of Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
WALLACE: . . . accounts in the newspaper where they made these
statements how they were going to fight . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah, fight for the rights.
WALLACE: . . . for the rights.
GRAHAM: That's right, exactly right. They never . . . they
never showed back up. It was, like, I think, my grandmother or
my step-grandmother and, uh, even her husband. There was Mary C.
Holmes. I could name you . . . I could name you 20 people
easily.
WALLACE: Did they contribute to . . .
GRAHAM: Sure, umhumm. They got . . . you know, some people
had to borrow that money, you know, to . . . to . . . to . . . .
WALLACE: So, they paid these attorneys all of this money.
GRAHAM: All of the money.
WALLACE: Was a lawsuit ever filed to try . . .
�
GRAHAM: No, nobody ever knew how to . . . to really . . .
they . . . I don't know. See, nobody wanted to take the credit
for even contacting them or how they contacted these other people
to do it. But, I mean, it was . . . it was . . . it was . . .
that's what happened.
WALLACE: You are the first person who has . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . even been able to tell me anything about that.
GRAHAM: Yeah. I'm going to tell you, now . . .
WALLACE: Because nobody, I guess, wants to be . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . associated with it for some reason.
GRAHAM: Well, well, I'm telling you because at the time, I
mean, because I guess I was a rebel. I was a total rebel, see,
because I thought . . . I could see that this was a sham, all of
this was a sham. The whole thing was . . . and just . . . it . .
. it irked me so much. And, as I say, see, I mean, during this
time, I mean, I . . . I know the hardships that, uh, some of the
people that had gone through. And, then, I said, well, you know,
this . . . it's like these promises that they say, well . . . I
remember I went to that one meeting that they promised that
you'll be able to . . . they showed the big plaque that you'll be
able to buy back at probably what we are going to give you for
�
the property.
WALLACE: Property.
GRAHAM: Because you'll . . . and these will be houses and
this will be this.
WALLACE: Who . . . who was making those kind of promises to
you, do you remember?
GRAHAM: See, actually the head at that time was the head of
urban renewal.
WALLACE: Charles Perry.
GRAHAM: Parish, Charles Parish [Charles R. Perry].
WALLACE: I tried to get him to . . .
GRAHAM: That's right, Perry. Perry?
WALLACE: Charles R. Perry.
GRAHAM: Perry. Perry was a man that they just . . . he
hood-winked a whole society of people.
WALLACE: What was the story on him? Do you know how he got
hooked up with urban renewal or . . .
GRAHAM: I don't know how he did it. I don't know . . . when
he just came out of the woodwork, and, uh, of course, like I say,
with promises. It was [laughing] I mean, I think it was
terrible that I said, hell, it was just like, uh, this . . . I
made several references to this in later years about it. I said,
well, it's just like they've got us off of that slave ship with a
�
piece of red flannel and a bone. [Laughter] You know, but it's
just . . . oh, he was . . . he . . . he got the people's
confidence. You know, he came . . . he was down there every day
telling about what . . . and this is going to be so much better,
you're going to be able to relocate and you're going to do this.
Fortunately, in a sense, we were one of the lucky ones.
WALLACE: How come?
GRAHAM: We were lucky for the simple reason that we left . .
. we went to a better house.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And, uh, we . . . that when we moved across from the
Post Office, we got that, you know, got that house from that, uh,
I can't think of . . . oh, Cohorn. We were lucky enough because,
like I say, we had four people, really five people working.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And, so, we could, uh, we could pool our resources
and we were able to buy this house . . . buy that house.
WALLACE: Well, did . . . did you all get what . . . what you
considered a fair price for your home?
GRAHAM: No, not, you know, not . . . we couldn't . . . we
couldn't, uh . . . we really . . . you know, I mean, like I say,
we . . . we didn't have any option. But, I mean, the house was
well kept and . . .
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . it was maintained and painted and everything of
this type. And . . . but it was just . . . you know, what we had
expanded on, what we had built on the back and everything. It
was . . . but it . . . it . . . we knew we had no choice.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: In other words, it was one of those things where that
everybody else had sold all around us. We didn't . . . we . . .
and just like . . . we knew, too, that if we didn't sell, it
would be torched, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm. You're the first person that's told me about
the fires.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Do you remember how you found out about the project?
GRAHAM: Well, when they . . . yeah, we found out about the
project at a meeting. There was another meeting that, uh, uh, I
think that was Sutterlin that . . . when they . . .
WALLACE: Fred Sutterlin?
GRAHAM: Yeah, when they was talking about building this thing
up here. And, of course, everybody was saying, well, now, in
other words, now, they're going to do us like the Indians.
They're going to put us on reservations, you know. [Laughing]
WALLACE: Sutterlin Terrace is a reservation?
�
GRAHAM: A reservation, it was. Well, you stop to think about
it. One police car can stop any vehicle from going through
there, you know. That was . . . it was insane. You stop to
think about it. You could maybe walk out, but you couldn't drive
out.
WALLACE: Drive. You mean, it was sort of . . . they could
keep better control . . .
GRAHAM: Oh, and exactly, exactly. It was one of those type
things. And this was all in the thinking, you know. So, it's
true.
WALLACE: Do you remember what you felt when you first found
out about it?
GRAHAM: Yeah. I . . . of course, I think we had already made
arrangements for this . . . to buy this other house and I said,
well, this is going to be another settlement that will be, you
know, where that in all probability that it will turn right back
into another slum.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Because you're going to have to have a certain cross
of sections, or what you call them, to satisfy what . . . what it
calls for. And, uh, it's like I say. When all of the rest of
them, they got to building them up and you could see the same
thing was going to happen. I know that Ms. Nellie Harris, she
�
had been displaced one time. She lived right next to us and had
a nice house, a nice, uh, stone house. And she moved to Hill
Street where she went into a tremendous amount of debt there.
But the ladies that she was working for, she worked for the
Caruthers, two old ladies, old maids. One of them worked at the
Education Department with me and the other sister, they . . . and
they were helping her out, you know . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . too, because they wanted her . . . because she
had worked for them for all of her life. So, they wanted to make
sure that she had a home and they supplemented. That's the only
reason she would buy that. And, then, of course, here comes the
other project and it displaced her again, see. [Laughing]
WALLACE: That's what I . . . the original project . . .
GRAHAM: Project . . .
WALLACE: . . . was not to affect Hill Street.
GRAHAM: Right, really.
WALLACE: And they expanded it.
GRAHAM: Expanded it. Expanded and . . . you know, and they
went on to Rosewood and down to the other place. But all of
these things was like I said. They . . . it was . . . the plan,
they kept talking about a 20-year plan or whatever the original
idea was, that they were going to build all of these things. But
�
they were all going to be . . . and where that you could still
have gone back into the slum area and built a house if you were
able to do it . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . which that never materialized because they
never . . . it was never made available.
WALLACE: Not . . .
GRAHAM: You look at the planning, the way all of the floods
that had happened . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Has . . . has the Capital Plaza ever flooded since
then?
WALLACE: No. [Laughter]
GRAHAM: Why couldn't you have done this, you know, years ago?
I mean, it made you say, well, we improved your property. It's
just like this street, this street here was Blanton, the lower .
. . or the higher end of Blanton.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: You had on that corner the Brookses. Old man Brooks
was a stone mason at the end of, uh, Ann Street . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: . . . right where the . . . you know where The Cave
is now?
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: That was, uh, that was a . . . a magnificent stone
building house. The lady next to that was . . . my sister owned,
sister-in-law owned that house. They had done a tremendous
amount of work. Uh, they . . . okay, the next house to that was
the only shabby house on that street.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Because everybody on that street had . . . that . . .
and all of them owned that . . . all of them owned that . . .
owned that property, each one of them. My mother-in-law had a
very nice two-story house there, and somebody burnt it down.
And, then, as I say, that other little house there next to that
was, uh, it was a little shabby. But it still was . . . you
know, it had been painted and everything. And all the way to the
end of the corner was . . . to the end of . . . which was the end
of, uh, St. Clair.
WALLACE: Well, why did they expand the project area? I don't
understand.
GRAHAM: Well . . .
WALLACE: Do you know?
GRAHAM: I don't know. It's, like I say, they had . . . they
found out . . . like I say, you just . . . you just . . . they .
. . I don't think they ever realized how many people that they
�
had displaced.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And, of course, that made families break up that
maybe had two families in the one house that would put . . . or
sometimes three families.
WALLACE: Where did the families go when they got this . . . I
mean, did they have anyplace to relocate?
GRAHAM: Well, really, most of them didn't have anyplace to .
. . a lot of them . . . I mean, they were working doing
housework.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . things of this type. Uh, they didn't have . .
. they just didn't have the facilities . . . if they were already
renting, and, at that time, they didn't do what they do now.
They displace and pay for you to move and, uh, relocate you.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: You had to go out on your own to find this . . . to
find a res- . . . to find these places.
WALLACE: Were families evicted if they were renting . . .
GRAHAM: Sure, right. They were evicted. Some of them tried
to stay there. They were either evicted or burnt out. It was
just that simple. That was . . . when they got down to the . . .
just like I say, when they . . . when they . . . big [property
�
owners], like, John Buckner. When they sold . . . well, that
probably . . . in that particular area, he, say . . . I'd say he
had seven houses.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: He had one building there that had six families, six
different families in it in that one building. Okay, then, on
Whitehead, he had another big building which he had five families
in . . . four families . . . there was five families in that . .
. in that particular building. And the little building that he
had next to that, and . . . well, I'd say he . . . when he sold,
that . . . that affected 15 families.
WALLACE: They said, at least I've read that a lot of people
wound up renting from the city or the slum . . .
GRAHAM: Umhumm, slum clearance.
WALLACE: . . . clearance.
GRAHAM: People was left staying in the houses they left.
They had these particular houses down there, some of those people
stayed in there maybe a year and a half or two years.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: And they rented from them; that they'd rent to the
city, see.
WALLACE: Do you remember Frank Lewis?
GRAHAM: Yes, Frank Lewis.
�
WALLACE: He's still alive and with us.
GRAHAM: Yeah. He is?
WALLACE: Yeah. Did you . . .
GRAHAM: Yes. I worked for Frank Lewis.
WALLACE: Oh, you did?
GRAHAM: I worked . . . I worked at Sherman Williams and he
was . . . Frank was the chairman of [inaudible]. Frank Williams
and, uh, Frank and, uh, Jim, uh, Jim . . . they ran Sherman
Williams paint company.
WALLACE: I know Frank was a relocation officer . . .
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . for the slum clearance for a long time.
GRAHAM: He came in late.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: He came in late. He . . . he had more dealings with
the . . .
WALLACE: With Gene . . .
GRAHAM: Gene, yeah, Gene Hines.
WALLACE: Gene Hines.
GRAHAM: Yes.
WALLACE: Why did they . . . do you know why they brought in .
. . Perry went out in '63 [1963] and Gene Hines came in.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
�
WALLACE: Do you know if there was something . . . why Perry
left and Hines came in or anything about it?
GRAHAM: I would think probably that some of the . . . the
people got to the point where probably they . . . I thought
really they might kill that man, you know, over some of the
things that they'd done.
WALLACE: Kill him.
GRAHAM: Some of the . . . here's what happened. Some of the
relatives that had been gone to Detroit and Chicago, uh, and
Ohio, they come back and saw what was happening, you know, just
to their relatives.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: You know, they . . . I mean, it was . . . they become
kind of violent.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: And you can see, some of the . . . you know, some of
these . . . some of this was like heir property.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And that's why you wonder sometime how they
manipulated these deeds or sold it without getting consent from,
uh, . . .
WALLACE: The heirs.
GRAHAM: . . . the heirs. They had . . . they had to either
�
condemn it or whatever they did, you know. Some of the vehicles
that they used to do that.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: But that was, uh, that was another . . . some of the
other problems. But, as I say, Frank, he came in in the late . .
. in late years . . . it was late . . . in the other stages, late
stages of the thing.
WALLACE: Sixty-four and five [1964 and 1965] and all of that.
GRAHAM: Right, right.
WALLACE: You say the '62 [1962] changed everything. What did
you mean when you said that?
GRAHAM: Well, it's, like I say, some people decided they
didn't, you know, they didn't . . . that they wasn't going back,
that they wasn't going to go through this again. And some of the
people, particularly some of the people that, uh, that didn't own
their property.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: See, they said, well, we'll find housing somewhere
else, see. And that's when a lot of them, you know, went . . .
was thinking in terms of the Hill. Some of them was glad to go
to the projects, you know, to . . . to get out of this . . . out
of this area.
WALLACE: Would your family, if you had not had your own home
�
and all, would you have considered the public housing?
GRAHAM: I wouldn't . . . I would never have considered, uh, .
. . I would never have considered public housing.
WALLACE: To my knowledge, the only public housing that was
built back in the Bottom . . . or close to the Bottom was
Riverview.
GRAHAM: Riverview, yeah.
WALLACE: Was the only . . .
GRAHAM: Only one . . .
WALLACE: . . . housing unit that ever went back down in there.
GRAHAM: Right, right, right. That's . . . that was . . .
WALLACE: Someone said that, uh, that no blacks were involved
in the planning of the urban . . . do you know of any black
resident that was ever . . .
GRAHAM: No.
WALLACE: . . . involved in the planning?
GRAHAM: No. I know of none. They, uh, they . . . they just
. . . they were eliminated, totally eliminated. There was a few
. . . they had a few, had maybe two that I would . . . that would
have, you know, they were seemingly sympathetic, but you . . .
you never . . . if you didn't . . . wasn't at the meeting of the
City Council at the time, you wouldn't . . . you . . . you know,
you would get fogged . . .
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: A very fogged opinion of what some of them said
sometimes.
WALLACE: Did you go to any City Council meetings or . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah, I did, I did.
WALLACE: Did you raise any questions or issues?
GRAHAM: I . . . no, I was . . . I tried to take them on one .
. . you know, a one-on-one deals, but I would question some of
the pro- . . . you know, some of the politicians there. And, of
course, they would . . . some would, they . . . you know, they
lied to you good.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: They lied to you good.
WALLACE: They said John Gerard was a big supporter of the slum
clearance. Is that . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Do you remember John?
GRAHAM: Yes. He was . . . of course, he had a garage and
electronics because he also had the, uh, had the, uh, TV. He had
a . . . he was the one that really started Community Service for
TV. He had the . . . of course, he was in competition with
Jacobs. See, old man Jacobs was the one . . . Jacobs and, uh,
Norrell . . .
�
WALLACE: Oh, yeah.
GRAHAM: That was Norrell's son.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: You know, that's his son.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: That was his step-, I mean, his in-laws, son-in-law.
When Jacobs himself was around. You know, when we hooked on to
TV, it cost you $100 at that time.
WALLACE: Shew, a hundred dollars.
GRAHAM: They had a . . . they had a pole up on Fort Hill and
they'd ask . . . you know, and, then, run the lines from there to
the . . . down to . . . and you paid that $100 up front before
you got hooked on.
WALLACE: I remember Isaac Fields told me they got hooked in .
. .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . and all of the kids in the neighborhood came .
. .
GRAHAM: As I say, well, we were lucky to have one of the . .
. well, we wasn't first, but we were pretty . . . you know, it
was . . . it was early. We were one of the earlier ones on the
street to get hooked in on TV. [Laughing] So, you can imagine
in the afternoon, we had a room full . . .
�
WALLACE: Full of kids. [Laughing]
GRAHAM: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: I heard that there was supposed to be low-interest,
federally-insured loans available to homeowners to help you . . .
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . buy replacement housing.
GRAHAM: That's exactly right.
WALLACE: Do you know people that took advantage . . .
GRAHAM: That's exactly what you . . . I know of no one that
was that was . . . that . . . I know a lot of people that put
applications in, but everybody, for some reason or another, they
would always . . . they wouldn't qualify.
WALLACE: Oh, you had to have a certain income . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah. You had to have a certain income. And they
really wanted . . . it wouldn't be husband and wife. It would
have to be the husband.
WALLACE: Oh.
GRAHAM: Head of the household.
WALLACE: So, only one income could be counted.
GRAHAM: Yeah, see.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: So, that . . . that means . . . that . . . that . . .
WALLACE: That ruled out a bunch.
�
GRAHAM: Sure. Well, at the time, even if you were working on
two jobs, that didn't count. You had to make a certain amount on
one job.
WALLACE: One job. Well, that didn't help . . .
GRAHAM: See, that was . . . that didn't help at all.
WALLACE: Yeah. I have yet to run into anybody that ever got
one of those low-interest loans.
GRAHAM: No, nobody got one. Nobody that I knew that . . .
that got one of those loans. I know that even the teachers that
applied, uh, they were asked to apply because . . . but at the
time, you know, the teacher's salary was very low, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah, they weren't . . .
GRAHAM: And they . . . they were strictly nine months'
salary, see, [laughing] because most of the teachers would
supplement themselves. They worked part-time jobs on the . . .
at the end of the school . . .
WALLACE: School year.
GRAHAM: . . . year, see. They'd have to get other jobs.
WALLACE: Where did the . . . you know, you talk about, like,
such a tight-knit community of friends . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . and neighbors. After the project started, did
the people tend to relocate in one area or did they just scatter
�
or . . .
GRAHAM: No, they scattered. Actually, as I say, the . . .
the . . . the working class, uh, opened up . . . well, South
Frankfort kind of opened up.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: You know. There . . . there was a lot of houses,
fairly decent housing that was in South Frankfort that they
scattered to. And, then, as I say, a lot of them came to the . .
. to the Hill. And, uh, that . . . that . . . that opened up,
you know, quite a bit.
WALLACE: Have you heard of a Cherokee Subdivision?
GRAHAM: Yeah, okay, the Cherokee . . .
WALLACE: Where . . . that was one I've heard mentioned as an
area that they were trying to develop.
GRAHAM: The Cherokee Subdivision. You couldn't . . . they
bought all of this. I wish my aunt had stayed here when you . .
. before you got here. The Swain subdivision is what it was.
WALLACE: The what subdivision?
GRAHAM: Swain subdivision.
WALLACE: Swain.
GRAHAM: The Swains owned that . . .
WALLACE: Where . . . where was it?
GRAHAM: It's right at the . . . behind the football field.
�
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
GRAHAM: It's right there. You're going down Langford . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: . . . it went down. Now, Pat Green and his mother
owned all the way to the first turn. They owned all of that
property on that far side. The Swains owned all of it back to
where College Park starts.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: But, in other words, Missouri now, as you go down
through Missouri where a couple lives now, that's Missouri and
Langford. That's a complete circle.
WALLACE: Yeah. I know exactly.
GRAHAM: The Swains owned all of that. They sold those lots
for $50 a lot.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Okay. You couldn't . . . you still . . . you
couldn't get a contractor. You couldn't get anybody to go in
there with . . . I mean, I . . . I was a good friend of the
husband . . . see, the old man died.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Well, Lucille is like my . . . she was the wife of
the . . . of the son that owned this thing. They were living in
Detroit.
�
WALLACE: Swain.
GRAHAM: Swain's, umhumm. The Swain's.
WALLACE: He was black.
GRAHAM: He was black. Un-huh, they were black. Okay. What
happened . . . I want to go back to another thing when I get
through with the Swain deal. They said, well, we'll just try to
sell it off in tracts where that somebody can go in and build a
home. And they broke it down into these small lots of, uh, more
or less like what some of the things you had in the Bottom.
Well, of course, anybody would have to buy two or three of them
to . . .
WALLACE: To . . .
GRAHAM: . . . to know the difference.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Okay. When they found out they couldn't get anybody,
nobody, no contractor would touch it.
WALLACE: Why?
GRAHAM: So . . . for some reason, and I don't know why,
whether it was, uh, black balls or whatever . . . whatever
happened. Even the people that owned that, I mean, some people
had four and five lots down there.
WALLACE: Couldn't . . .
GRAHAM: What happened, Ward Oates and Glenn Purdy and, uh, I
�
can't think of the other fellow's name. They, uh, decided . . .
they just decided they would go in there and find out who had
these deeds. They went out and bought it. They bought up all of
that land, and they cleared it straight down off. And they went
in there with something that if, uh, . . . . a mirage, but, of
course, there was . . . there was several people that had some
fairly good money like the Turners and, uh, a few others. They
had built houses. They did. They had actually got . . . were
able to get houses built.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Before Purdy and them came. And, then, after Purdy
and Ward Oates and I can't . . . I'll come up with the other
guy's name because he was a . . . used to be a vice-president of
Schenley Distillery, the other fellow that was in on that deal.
WALLACE: Not Liebman, was it?
GRAHAM: Oh, no, Liebman wasn't in on this. They, uh, bought
up all of these [inaudible] flattened them out. They started
building. They started building and putting houses up. But the
key was no matter how much money you ever got, it still was going
to take you 30 years to pay those houses off.
WALLACE: Ahh, 30 years.
GRAHAM: Thirty years. No matter if you got rich the next
day, [laughing - Wallace] you could never pay your house off for
�
30 years.
WALLACE: You mean, the money you got from the sale of your
house down in the Bottom or . . .
GRAHAM: House, yeah. Anything you got, whatever they . . .
like they knew, they knew exactly how much money you got and . .
.
WALLACE: So, they'd adjust the price accordingly.
GRAHAM: They adjusted the price . . .
WALLACE: Accordingly.
GRAHAM: That's exactly what they did. And everybody that
wanted in there that was out of that slum, out of the area, and
whatever they got for the other property they owned there, it was
. . . that's the way the price was adjusted on the . . .
WALLACE: You are the only person that has ever told me
anything about Cherokee before.
GRAHAM: That's right. That's Cherokee. That's Cherokee
Park.
WALLACE: And, then, College Heights . . .
GRAHAM: College Heights was a different story. That was a .
. . that was another deal. Now, we go back to South Frankfort.
And this happened. There was a man that owned what they called
the mill, all of that St. John's which is now in the new flood .
. .
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WALLACE: Sure.
GRAHAM: That's the new flood story.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: I happened to have . . . I own a house down there. I
own two houses down there.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: And we're going through the same deal that was done
back in the . . . it's going to be a . . . well, it's going
through the same type thing. Of course, I'm not down there
living. You've got property owners that live in the area, but,
now, the renters, see, I mean, they're going to be totally
displaced. Hollenrufer [George Halmhuber], a fellow by the name
of Hollenrufer owned all of this land. So, what he did, he would
sell you a lot on credit and make a deal with your . . . you
could buy these pre-fab houses. See, four of those houses down
there are pre-cut, pre-fabs.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Alex Sanders was one of the first to buy one of them.
And Lewis . . .
WALLACE: Is that the house that Alex still lives in now?
GRAHAM: No, no. Alex lives . . . that was the first house he
lived and it came in on a truck. I helped unload that damn
thing. [Laughter] On a Sunday . . . it come in on a Sunday
�
morning and I'll never forget that. He built . . . see, next to
that, then, he built a house. He built the one on the corner
after that.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Because his brother-in-law built the house next to
that. So, those . . . see, Alex and some member of his family
owned all three of those houses at one time there.
WALLACE: Where were these, now, on . . .
GRAHAM: On . . . it was on St. John's Court.
WALLACE: St. John's Court, okay.
GRAHAM: Okay. And, then, the one that I owned, which Patton
bought.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Patton. He got . . . bought that land from
Hollenrufer [George Halmhuber] and he built apartments, and,
then, this little house and Vernon Lightfoot built one of the
pre-cut houses. But he . . . but he wasn't . . . he really
wasn't displaced, but he bought that little house next to the . .
. on St. John's Street.
WALLACE: So, some people were making money off of these . . .
GRAHAM: Sure. They made . . . they made money on them. They
. . . they exploited.
WALLACE: It's funny. I've heard people . . . "Pappa Jazz"
�
Berry in an article in the newspaper . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . said that white people made money off of
Bottom.
GRAHAM: Sure.
WALLACE: And he didn't really explain that in the article.
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: I . . . I assume maybe bootlegging or . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah. Well, even . . .
WALLACE: . . . renting.
GRAHAM: Well, even . . . like I said, even the illegitimate
business, the . . . the blacks didn't own it. I mean, they were
running it, but it was for somebody living on Capital Avenue.
[Laughter] You know, free. I mean, it's . . . they still got
you both ways. [Laughing] They would . . . you know, they was
the backers and they would back you. But, you know, that was
like old man Haydon, uh, that had that beer garden and, uh, my
father worked for him. He went to prison for him. My father had
to go to prison to keep him from going to prison.
WALLACE: Where was the beer garden?
GRAHAM: The beer garden was on Clinton Street, right about .
. . right down from this thing here going . . .
WALLACE: Sullivan's Grocery.
�
GRAHAM: . . . on the same side on the far side of the street
all the way down.
WALLACE: On the north side, yeah.
GRAHAM: Yeah. There was a . . . that was between Center
Street. There was a little street that went in between there
called Center, and the beer garden was the next building over.
WALLACE: Over.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, you dad took a prison rap for this?
GRAHAM: Took a prison rap for . . .
WALLACE: For running . . .
GRAHAM: For . . .
WALLACE: For running a . . .
GRAHAM: . . . running whiskey for Haydon, yeah. That's
exactly right. He . . . that's . . . you know, he told him,
well, I'll take care of your kids and all of that, you go on, you
take this [inaudible]. It wasn't no . . . I mean, it was . . . it
was, uh, like, I guess maybe five or six months or something like
that, but he did. You know, he'd bring some groceries and things
in there.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
GRAHAM: I can remember that, you know, because like I say, my
mother was a real proud woman and, uh . . . cause, uh, when I . .
�
. you know, that . . . that was something to . . . that . . .
that . . . it was a stigma that you . . . you still think about
it today, you know. That's one of the reasons I think I've . . .
maybe I was at a time real bitter. [Laughter]
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: I had a lot of reasons to be bitter.
WALLACE: Well, I've run into people who . . . who are bitter
because they feel like they lost a sense of . . . of community.
GRAHAM: Yeah, they did.
WALLACE: Ms. Gill said "I'm . . . I'm just one black woman
stuck out here all by myself."
GRAHAM: Yeah, that's right, and that's what happened. You
know, you . . . you could get together within three blocks,
walking distance. You didn't have to have a car to communicate
with all of your friends. Now, you've got to have a car. You've
got some of them stuck over here, some stuck here and some over
there. You've got to have transportation. Now, think of the
people that don't drive.
WALLACE: That's true.
GRAHAM: And you've got to get a cab to see one of them.
You've got to depend on somebody else for . . . to go anywhere
you want to go. So, it's . . . it was . . . it . . . it . . . it
separated it. And it created a cast system, too.
�
WALLACE: How so?
GRAHAM: It creates a cast system because, see, if you got
over and, then, that guy, you know, their chest sticks out, you
know. They say, well, I don't . . . I've got . . . I've made it,
you know. All right. Well, people will turn against you, you
know, in a sense because you say, well, people should never
forget from whence they came. And, uh, it's . . . but . . . but,
yet, at the same time, there's so much envy.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: You know.
WALLACE: For those that succeeded economically . . .
GRAHAM: Succeeded economically, that's right.
WALLACE: Sort of would look . . .
GRAHAM: They actually, you know, they . . . they . . .
they're looked down on instead of, you know, glorified. They are
looked down on.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: It's like some of the . . . one of the things . . .
I'll tell you what I . . . [laughing] this is a heck of a thing
to think about. Uh, I've always said that the slum clearance
caused more marriages because, see, when they went into these
housing, you had to be . . . all of the common law, people that
had been living common law . . .
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: . . . lives all of those years, then, they made a
stipulation that they had to be married to move into the
projects.
WALLACE: Oh . . .
GRAHAM: And, so, I'll say that was one good thing [Laughter]
religiously that . . . that happened that maybe was a blessing,
you know.
WALLACE: That's the first I've heard of this. [Laughing -
Graham]
GRAHAM: See.
WALLACE: Ahh. Well, what happened to the black-owned
businesses? There were . . .
GRAHAM: They all disappeared. They . . . well, they would
find . . . they couldn't find suitable . . . they wouldn't . . .
they couldn't find a suitable location or they couldn't afford
the location if they had found them because they didn't have . .
. well, they said, you know, everybody had the same stigma that
it's . . . it's going to create another slum there, you know. If
they open up a place here, the rowdiness. They didn't want you
in South Frankfort. They didn't want you on the Hill, and the
businesses . . . our business . . . I was . . . we . . . as I
say, we had just started in '59 [1959]. The VFW started and was
�
found in '59 [1959]. And, then, after we moved out in '62
[1962], after the '62 [1962] flood, we didn't go back into that
building. We went up on East Main, went up where we are now.
WALLACE: What happened to Ewen Atkins and Dr. Holmes and all .
. .
GRAHAM: Ewen Atkins was not able to relocate. Uh, he . . .
he didn't own the building. John Buckner owned that building.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: And, as I say, when he sold . . . see, he displaced
that business. When he . . . when John Buckner sold, he was not
able to go back into the building. And as I say, he lived . . .
he always roomed with Ms. Holmes who was a teacher at Mayo-
Underwood. She moved out . . . she went to . . . out on Wallace
Avenue.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
GRAHAM: Now, see, that was four houses that opened up out
there that, you know, blacks had not lived. I had . . . there
was only two black families that lived out there at the
beginning.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: But that wound up being five families out there.
WALLACE: Across from the Post Office and back in there?
GRAHAM: Well, back . . . Wallace Avenue is out . . . going
�
out Holmes Street . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: . . . and it turns off of Holmes Street right, you
know, going back toward the Hill again.
WALLACE: Yeah. I know . . .
GRAHAM: That's Wallace Avenue. And, uh, because, uh, . . .
Ms. Holmes was able . . . lucky to find a house out there. She
bought and had to do a tremendous amount of work on it because
she had three roomers.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: And she had this big two-story house on Clinton, and,
then, she had to fill this little thing out there which was just
about less than half the size . . .
WALLACE: Size.
GRAHAM: . . . of what she moved out of. Let's see. You
know, I mean, she . . . it took her . . . I mean, I knew
personally by talking to her. I used to drive her. My wife used
to drive her around here. She was a good . . . she had bought a
car, but she couldn't drive it. [Laughter] We used to drive
her, and I remember she . . . you know, she would discuss her
business openly. And she was, uh, she was really upset about,
uh, what they had promised her for the house and, then, what they
paid her for the house.
�
WALLACE: She got a lot less than what . . .
GRAHAM: A lot less than what they . . . they . . .
WALLACE: Did a lot of those folk have to . . . that own their
own homes have to go back into debt?
GRAHAM: Sure. They had to go back into debt. That's what I
was saying. That was . . . that was the bad part. At that age,
you know, to have to go back into debt because she was, then,
retirement age at that time even. So, it . . . you know, it was
. . .
WALLACE: When Mayo-Underwood closed, did the black teachers
get . . .
GRAHAM: They didn't have but three teachers, and they didn't
get teaching jobs. They went on and got a library job and one of
the . . . it was later that they got . . . Ms. Alice Samuels was
the, uh, the . . . Ms. Alice Samuels . . .
[End of Tape #1, Side #2]
[Begin Tape #2, Side #1]
WALLACE: It's rare to find someone like you that not only
remembers it, but remembers it so vividly.
GRAHAM: Well, yeah.
WALLACE: Ms. Gill said, you know, I remember some of it, but
she had been sick.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
�
WALLACE: And . . . and her memory was not quite . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . as good as she would like. Let me . . . let me
get away from urban renewal for a second and get back to some of
the businesses that you remember. Tell me about the
Suds-n-teria. . .
GRAHAM: Okay.
WALLACE: . . . where it was and what kind of business it was.
GRAHAM: Okay. The Suds-n-teria was a laundrymat. It was a
laundrymat, uh, and it . . . it . . . believe it or not, that was
another John Buckner. He owned that building.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: He owned the building. At one time, there was a
doctor's office up above it, a black doctor that had it.
WALLACE: Which . . . now, that wasn't Dr. Holmes, was it?
GRAHAM: No, this was Dr. Gay.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: He was a dentist.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: He had an office over there.
WALLACE: Where was Suds-n-teria?
GRAHAM: And, then, Dr. . . . Suds-n-teria was in the middle
of the block between Washington Street going toward, uh, the back
�
of the Capitol.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: Madison Street was the next little . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . street there. Uh, the . . . the Suds-n-teria
was, like I said, they had a little . . . probably the only
laundrymat that blacks could go to.
WALLACE: It was a black-owned business.
GRAHAM: It was not, no. It was . . . there was a Harrod . .
. Harrod, uh, rented that to . . . you know, put the laundrymat
in there for . . . I think it was the . . . you know, the same
fellows, the Harrod that owned the Pete's Corner.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: He . . .
WALLACE: Not Bob Harrod, was it?
GRAHAM: Not Bob Harrod, no. This was another Harrod, that he
. . .
WALLACE: That's funny because Pete's Corner is sort of the
white counterpart . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah, counterpart.
WALLACE: . . . to Tiger Inn.
GRAHAM: Tiger Inn, right. Well, it . . . he . . . of course,
Charles Fields worked for Pete's Corner. They had three black
�
guys that worked for him and still . . . Blue Bonnet, the
connections are still there, the same thing. He works for them
even today, and I guess Charles is probably 74 or 75 years old.
WALLACE: So, the same people that own Pete's Corner own Blue
Bonnet . . .
GRAHAM: Own . . . Suds-n-teria, right.
WALLACE: . . . and Charles Fields.
GRAHAM: Charles Fields, yes, right.
WALLACE: I want to go talk to Charles sometime.
GRAHAM: Yeah. He's a good . . . yeah, that's right.
WALLACE: Well, what about the 99 Club?
GRAHAM: Well, 99 was where . . . oh, the 99 came into . . .
that was George Taylor. George Taylor bought . . . see, when he
bought those two buildings, he bought . . . and they had a little
restaurant there and "Newt" Berry run one of them and a fellow by
the name of Thomas Jefferson.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Thomas Jefferson, he . . . I don't know where he . .
. he and his wife had come in here and George Taylor more or less
had him as a . . . like, uh, running the best business, the
hamburger joints and the . . .
WALLACE: Un-huh. Where were the two buildings located? Were
they on Washington?
�
GRAHAM: Well, they're still on Washington. They're on . . .
in the same area which was the . . . used to be known as Mike
Deakins.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: Which was the basic store, and, uh, they made a pool
room out of one side.
WALLACE: Was that Knott's Pool . . .
GRAHAM: Knott's Pool Room, Knott's Pool Room. Of course,
see, Jeff and . . . and Knott worked for George Taylor. All of
these were George Taylor enterprises.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: All of these, the three things. He had the three
businesses right there together, three . . . three businesses.
All of them was owned and operated . . . well, they were operated
by Jeff and Bob Knott.
WALLACE: Do you remember an individual referred to as "Black
Cat" [Thomas Graham]?
GRAHAM: "Black Cat" was my father.
WALLACE: Ahh, wow. [Laughing] I don't know anything about
him other than . . .
GRAHAM: "Black Cat" is my father.
WALLACE: . . . he was supposed to be a man who . . .
GRAHAM: If . . . if . . . his main thing was that if they'd
�
taken black baseball players during that time, he would have been
one of them. I mean, he'd had gone to major leagues, he was that
good a pitcher.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
GRAHAM: That . . .
WALLACE: He played for, like, Mayo-Underwood or . . .
GRAHAM: No, he didn't play for Mayo-Underwood. He . . . he
played for these what they call industrial ball leagues, oh,
black, whatever they call them, the Negro leagues.
WALLACE: Leagues.
GRAHAM: And they . . . you know, they . . . well, that was
one of the hustlings that they had then. They'd go to the best
towns, Springfield, Bardstown and Lebanon and Versailles and
Lexington and play ball on Sundays usually, and they had the old
[inaudible] lot out there is what they . . . that's what they
called their home field where they used to have circuses.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
GRAHAM: Out there on Holmes Street. That was called
[inaudible] Lot where they'd have their circus, and that's where
they had a ball . . .
WALLACE: Where . . . where on Holmes is that, now?
GRAHAM: It was . . . you know where, uh, okay. You know
where the surplus property is?
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: Right across the street going toward the Hill.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: That lot back there, that was called [inaudible] Lot.
That was the ball . . . they had a regular stadium built out
there.
WALLACE: What team did your dad play for?
GRAHAM: Well, it was . . .
WALLACE: A bunch of teams?
GRAHAM: They just . . . they just called them . . . they
called them the Merchants.
WALLACE: The Merchants.
GRAHAM: It was the Merchants, umhumm, the Frankfort
Merchants. Of course, like I say, they'd . . . you know, they'd
. . . that was a big time deal then. These people would turn out
like . . .
WALLACE: Black and white?
GRAHAM: Right, black and white was following them, you know.
They'd play these guys . . . like old man John Fallis and, like,
he'd go . . . he liked to bet on them, you know.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
GRAHAM: They'd bet that money, and, of course, they'd
bootleg good, too, out at the ball games and places. [Laughter]
�
WALLACE: When was he playing? When was your dad playing,
about what time?
GRAHAM: Well, he played, uh, . . .
WALLACE: Would it have been . . .
GRAHAM: . . . all the way through . . . even . . . even
played up in the forties [1940s], up into the forties [1940s].
WALLACE: When . . . do you know when he started playing, 1900?
GRAHAM: I don't know. See, he got out of service. He went
to the . . . he was in World War I, see. And, uh, I . . . I
guess after he got out of service that's when they started
playing ball.
WALLACE: But he didn't . . . like I say, he didn't make his
living playing ball.
GRAHAM: No. Well, he . . .
WALLACE: He couldn't.
GRAHAM: Well, there wasn't no really . . . of course, like I
say, they made . . . it was . . . they got paid, you know, after
. . . they got paid. Everybody . . . like sometimes what would
happen, they'd say winner take all.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: The winner, they'd take the gate, you know, because
the guy that was renting. They'd . . . you know, they'd charge
so much on the game.
�
WALLACE: On the game, right.
GRAHAM: Like fifty cents or twenty-five cents or something
like that. But they . . . they're all sold . . . they'd bet some
on it themselves, you know, who was going to win. But, like I
say, that would be a lot of money. And when they won, we'd
always have more to eat. [Laughter - Wallace] I know that, you
know. [Laughing] I can remember that. There was a lot more
food.
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, they . . . they say your dad was sort of
the black John Fallis of . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . of Bottom.
GRAHAM: Yes. Well, that's what it was. They respected him.
At least one thing, you know, like I say, he was a law and order
man, you know, as far as if somebody got in trouble or whatever
it is, he could kind of straighten them out, and that's what . .
. I guess he's sort of like the mediator for trouble.
WALLACE: Ahh, I see.
GRAHAM: That was the one thing he could do, you know.
WALLACE: So, if you got in a fix, you could come to your dad .
. .
GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: And he might square it with the right people.
�
GRAHAM: And he'd square it with the police or the judge or
something. They respected him that way; that, you know, if he
told them something, it was right. And, like I say, he was a
peacemaker or supposed to have been, I guess.
WALLACE: I see.
GRAHAM: More like a peacemaker.
WALLACE: When you think of some of the places down there, the
joints, the Blue Moon, the Tiptoe . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . or the Peachtree.
GRAHAM: Tree.
WALLACE: Are those places that blacks went to or . . .
GRAHAM: No, the blacks didn't go in them, you know. They
didn't go in them, but, uh, like Alex Gordon, Peachtree Inn.
But, uh, uh, you know, it's like I say. The crowds, they . . .
each one respected their own territory.
WALLACE: Territory.
GRAHAM: Now, you have some whites that could come in to all
of the black joints and be welcome in that joint.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: But, uh, most of the blacks wouldn't go into these
other joints.
WALLACE: Where were the black joints? Where would you go as a
�
black?
GRAHAM: Well, you had . . . I could name . . . I was just
thinking. Now, that's . . . these are all black joints in that
area. All of these were in that . . .
WALLACE: Where was "Shineboy" [Alfred Pollard's restaurant]?
GRAHAM: "Shineboy's" was on the corner across from the
school. "Shineboy's" was where the school kids in the day, you
know, they had . . . he sold hot dogs and chili and bean soup and
it was like the Tiger Inn. They had about the same stuff.
WALLACE: So, that was not a drinking place. It was an eating
place.
GRAHAM: No. It was eating. But in the night, no, they would
drink. I mean . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: . . . they drank beer. He sold beer after school,
after school hours.
WALLACE: Oh, I see, okay.
GRAHAM: See, they'd sell it. And he had a little dancing
place in the back.
WALLACE: Who . . . who was "Shineboy"?
GRAHAM: "Shineboy" was one regular guy. He was . . . he was
a cat. He came out of Harlan.
WALLACE: Harlan?
�
GRAHAM: He came out of Harlan, yeah.
WALLACE: Eastern Kentucky.
GRAHAM: Eastern Kentucky.
WALLACE: What was his name?
GRAHAM: You know what, I can't . . . I can't think of what
his real name was because he's dead now. And he just died, I'm
talking about last five or six years.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: But, I mean, it was . . . he drove a cab in
Cincinnati even in later years after he left there. Uh, he was a
World War I veteran.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: He was, uh . . . I run into him at the hospital in
Dayton, Ohio at the VA Hospital one time. I'd run into him . . .
after he left here, he'd . . . he'd been gone out of Frankfort
for I couldn't tell you, maybe 35 years or maybe, you know, but
the renewal got him, too, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: And there was a . . . he had three barber shops,
three black barber shops . . .
WALLACE: "Shineboy" did?
GRAHAM: No.
WALLACE: I'm . . .
�
GRAHAM: He had . . . he wound up one time he did have two
restaurants at the same time. He had the . . . he had the
restaurant up under the American Legion which is, uh . . . was,
uh . . .
WALLACE: What was the name of that place?
GRAHAM: That was Silver Slipper. They call that the Silver
Slipper.
WALLACE: Silver Slipper, okay. Would this have been in the
fifties [1950s] or . . .
GRAHAM: This would have been in the fifties [1950s], yeah.
It would have been the fifties [1950s], early fifties [1950s],
the early fifties [1950s].
WALLACE: Who were the three barbers, the black barbers?
GRAHAM: Barbers. You had Bob Martin. You had John Davis,
and, then, of course, you had Mr. Fred Allen. And, uh, the . . .
Wesley Martin's father, and there was a . . . like the other
fellow, you know, I can't . . . we called him "Corn Puddin'".
His name was Charles Chiles. [Laughter - Wallace] Charles
Chiles was his real name.
WALLACE: Little . . . Little Rose or Little . . . Little . .
. what's that one there, the Little . . . Little . . .
GRAHAM: Let's see. Little Restaurant, they call it. That
was the . . . George Taylor's too.
�
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: George Taylor's ran that. "Newt" Berry ran the
Little Restaurant.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: That's what they called it.
WALLACE: Where was Ike's?
GRAHAM: Grill. Ike's was . . . was, uh, the other side of
the Grill. The Grill . . . there was two restaurants. See, two
restaurants in one. Swains owned . . . the same Swains I was
talking about, they were the ones that built . . . they built it.
He was a brick mason.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
GRAHAM: He built these two buildings.
WALLACE: The Grill.
GRAHAM: He built the Grill and what we wound up which was
Will Wren's first.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: Now, when they tore the . . . the protection between
the two buildings and they just made it a grill.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And, uh, because that was still Swain's, and they had
apartments over the top of the building and . . . on both of
them. They had apartments on top of both of these buildings, but
�
they were right side by side.
WALLACE: Did . . .
GRAHAM: And the next was the American Legion. And, then, of
course, 99 was on the other side of the street. The White Spot
was . . . belonged to Buckner, too.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: And it was on Clinton Street. It was on Clinton.
There was a church on the corner, Bethel Church. Next to that
was the Gaines. Next to that was Henrietta Gill. Next to the
Suds . . . that was . . . and, then, there was the Suds-n-teria,
and, then, next to that was the White Spot. [Laughing]
WALLACE: Was the White Spot sort of a . . .
GRAHAM: It was a little . . . it wasn't . . . it was a little
. . . well, it was a . . . it was a restaurant and beer joint.
And, uh, of course, he had a little dance space in the back of
it. And it ran all the way back to the [inaudible]. And all of
the buildings behind that next to that is where "Tubba" Marshall
lived.
WALLACE: He was supposed to be a famous . . . pretty famous
athlete, wasn't he, "Tubby" Marshall?
GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah. Well, "Tubba" . . . old man "Tubba" was
a heck of a . . . and he was a heck of an official. Daddy . . .
the daddy was a, uh . . . you know, he . . . he, uh . . . oh, the
�
college football games. He was a porter. He was a cook on the
railroad, on the L&N.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
GRAHAM: And . . . but on the weekends, he always could
arrange on these Saturdays to . . .
WALLACE: Officiate.
GRAHAM: . . . referee, officiate ball games, yeah.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: And he ran for City Commissioner. He was the first
black to run for City Commissioner.
WALLACE: When did he do that? Do you remember?
GRAHAM: It was, uh, that was right after . . . it was in the
sixties when he did that.
WALLACE: "Tubby" Marshall.
GRAHAM: "Tubba" . . . "Tubba" Marshall. Ellsworth Marshall,
Sr.
WALLACE: Oh. So, I talked to his son.
GRAHAM: You talked to his son.
WALLACE: His son.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
GRAHAM: There's three. Ellsworth Marshall, Ellsworth
Marshall, Jr., and Ellsworth Marshall, III.
�
WALLACE: Oh, man. This is great. I'm learning some great
stuff.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: The beer garden was on Clinton.
GRAHAM: The beer garden was . . . what I was telling you
about the beer garden was down . . .
WALLACE: Down the street from Sullivan's.
GRAHAM: . . . down this street. It was from Sullivan's, you
got on across the alley was those five houses and Fincel's Meat
Market. And, then, across the street from that was one house,
and, then, the beer garden.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Which that was . . . that was Haydon's. That's where
my father in long ago before . . . and it was early because my
father ran the beer joint, too, for Haydon.
WALLACE: Well, were most of these places in operation at the
time of urban renewal?
GRAHAM: They were all in operation. Every one of them was in
operation at the time . . .
WALLACE: Did any one of them survive?
GRAHAM: No, nothing but the American Legion went to, what you
call the American Legion. There was not a person that came out
of . . . one barber shop survived. John Davis got him some . . .
�
up on East Main.
WALLACE: Ahh, I seen his . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah. That's where the store is now. But that's
where he was because Dr. Holmes owned that building. The, uh,
uh, none of the rest of them.
WALLACE: None of them made it?
GRAHAM: None of them.
WALLACE: They just . . .
GRAHAM: The American Legion and the VFW were the only two
that made it, and that one barber shop after the urban renewal.
WALLACE: So, it was sort of decimated the black businesses.
GRAHAM: It did that. It did. It definitely did.
WALLACE: This was great. This is the first time I heard of
many of these places.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Thank . . . thank you very much for going to that
trouble.
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: When you think of the leaders, the people who were
respected in the black community, the people that you turned to .
. .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . who . . . who comes to mind?
�
GRAHAM: Well, I always . . . I always . . . the . . . well,
Mr. Jackson Robb. But, see, Jack never wanted to take that type
of responsibility for the same point that in his business and the
dealings at the time. Jack made a tremendous amount of money as
an entertainer.
WALLACE: I heard he had a trio.
GRAHAM: Yeah, he had a trio and he had the . . . but he
played the solo piano and the organ in all the white places, you
know, where . . . sometimes there's one-man entertainer there.
The Capitol Hotel. He was just accepted there, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: So, he, I guess, though that he didn't like to rock
the boat. So, uh, well, we were looking for John Buckner because
of property, you know, but at the same time, we . . .
circumstances were showing you that John Buckner was only out for
John Buckner.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: So, I . . . you know, I, as I say, now, I was a
rebel. I was a rebel. And Earl Tracy was the same way. He had,
uh, Earl had lots of . . . he came from the same mold. He was
from . . . from, uh, working with the Harrods.
WALLACE: Okay.
GRAHAM: He worked with the Harrods, [inaudible] refrigeration
�
and he delivered ice cream and all of that. And he bought a lot
of property. He was able to save enough money. He was a pretty
good businessman as far as property, buying property. And, then
. . .
WALLACE: What about Will Castleman [William S. Castleman]?
That's a name I've . . .
GRAHAM: Okay. Will Castleman was like my father but he was
in a different mold and he, uh, he was . . . he was a strong-
armed man. But he ran . . . George Taylor first turned into
business as far as the black business dealing with all of the
blacks . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: So, he was the one that did it. He . . .
WALLACE: Will did that for him?
GRAHAM: Will did that for him, yeah, he did that.
WALLACE: I heard that Will would sort of fix it.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: You get into a scrape . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . you go to Will and . . .
GRAHAM: And he . . .
WALLACE: . . . he could square it.
GRAHAM: He could kind of square it. He was . . . he'd go and
�
he'd call the judge and some of the other . . .
WALLACE: I've heard . . .
GRAHAM: L. Boone Hampton.
WALLACE: Who was that now?
GRAHAM: L. Boone Hampton.
WALLACE: L. Boone Hampton.
GRAHAM: His son is Johnny Hampton down there.
WALLACE: Mr. Hampton was a power.
GRAHAM: He was a power.
WALLACE: Did they work the polls?
GRAHAM: They worked the polls. They'd tell you who to vote
for. They'd bring you tickets . . . bring the ballots. See, at
that time, you had the ballots. So, you'd get the one . . .
they'd start on with that one ballot and they'd fix them up
themselves.
WALLACE: Oh, they . . .
GRAHAM: They got $2.00 and a half pint of whiskey.
WALLACE: $2.00 and a half pint of whiskey . . .
GRAHAM: Two and a half pint of whiskey.
WALLACE: . . . for your vote?
GRAHAM: For your vote. And he, you know, they'd go to your
house, bring it to your house, and go to your house.
WALLACE: You mean they'd bring the ballot out and they'd give
�
you your money and your whiskey and you'd sign off and they'd
take it on.
GRAHAM: They take it . . . you'd just switch it around and
they'd bring . . . you'd go in and you'd bring that one out and
bring in another one, you know. You brought . . . you bought one
out and you went, too.
WALLACE: I've heard it said that Bottom was a politically
powerful . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: You had to go down in the Bottom if you wanted . . .
GRAHAM: You had to to win, you know, because you could . . .
like I say, the people, they voted, you know, they were almost
forced to vote, you know. Whether you were wanting to vote or
not, it . . . that wasn't . . . they knew that . . . they had the
wards. See, you had wards in there.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: So, you had to have that . . . well, you could win an
election without . . . without the ballots. You had guys . . .
people that didn't have even houses. They was living on the
street and living in boxes and things of this type, but they . .
. they could vote. [Laughter] They'd go out in these little . .
. and go in and get that ticket.
WALLACE: One of Ms. Gill's theories is that the reason urban .
�
. . one of the reasons urban renewal came down there was to break
up that black vote.
GRAHAM: Sure, it was. That . . . that . . . that was . . .
it was very good possibility that what you're saying that in that
one area that you was talking about, it would be anywhere from,
uh, seven or eight hundred votes. And, you know, a councilman
could win with 1,300.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: Just 1,300. At that time, you could win 1,300 or
1,400 votes.
WALLACE: I imagine you all saw people like Frank . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . Sower coming down there and, uh . . . well,
Paul Judd.
GRAHAM: Yeah. Paul Judd was a . . . Judge Paul was a type of
. . . an aristocratic type dude. He . . . he would send somebody
else.
WALLACE: To come down.
GRAHAM: Yeah. He would . . . [sound of phone ringing] you
know, he basically wouldn't come down.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: Because, see, what would happen, another thing . . .
well, I was going to say that you had guys like Pallie Thomas
�
[Powell Thomas] and, uh, which was some kin to Henrietta.
WALLACE: Ahh.
GRAHAM: And you had, uh, uh, there was another guy that was a
Thomas that, uh, that's, uh, his wife lives, still lives over
here on South Frankfort. He was the trash man. He had a trash
business. He picked up all of the . . .
WALLACE: Garbage.
GRAHAM: . . . garbage and trash out of all of the business
places. And, uh, what would happen during election time, they'd
have a big rally in his yard. He had a back yard that ran out
into St. John's. Of course, they'd bring the beer and the
whiskey, you know, and a few of the politicians would come and
they'd, you know, they'd speak to you on . . .
WALLACE: Court you.
GRAHAM: Court you, court you . . .
WALLACE: At least for one or two days.
GRAHAM: Yeah, that one day [laughter], give you some hot dogs
and, uh, a bottle, you know, to . . . they'd have a couple of
fifths of whiskey there. And that . . . that . . . that was just
a going thing on an election day. You'd know that that was going
. . . that that was going to happen, you know. But, uh, that was
the kind of politics that they did.
WALLACE: When you think back on everything that's happened,
�
the Capital Plaza project and all of that, was it a good or bad
thing that Bottom is gone?
GRAHAM: Well, it . . . it's, uh, you can't have it both ways.
I know that. You can't have it both ways. [Laughing] Actually,
the . . . I feel that in some ways probably that it could cause .
. . . it was . . . the adversity was an incentive to do better.
WALLACE: It actually spurred some people.
GRAHAM: Spurred some. It spurred some people to try to beat
that . . . what was happening. And, uh, I feel like that's one
of the things that happened to me. I believe, you know, that
that was one of the . . . one of the blessings of it. But the
way in which it was done was definitely wrong. It was definitely
wrong. It was just . . . it was a master plan to disband the
majority of the blacks in that community.
WALLACE: That's funny. What you just said is almost the same
thing that James "Pappa Jazz" Berry said. He said, I came out of
it economically . . .
GRAHAM: Economically . . .
WALLACE: . . . better.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: And I doubt that I would go back . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . if such a place existed again.
�
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: But he missed the . . . there's something about it
that he missed.
GRAHAM: Right.
WALLACE: And that's . . .
GRAHAM: Well, that's basically what I think. And I actually
believe that. And as you say, you know, that . . . it was a . .
. it was cruel mirage. They came in and painted such a beautiful
picture, you know . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: . . . of how things are going to be so much better.
But there was people that suffered 15, 20 years.
WALLACE: As a result . . .
GRAHAM: As a result of it. Actually, it was . . . it . . .
it, you know, broke up families. It, uh, it, you know, people
were taking sides. The black leadership was totally disrupted.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: You know, because . . . that's just like I . . . you
take what we wound up with in the American Legion over there.
You had a building that was made . . . that was put together by
blacks. I mean, that was built by . . . that was a three-story
building. And you wind up with a little hut . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
GRAHAM: . . . compared to what you had. They owned that
building. They built it. That building was built by a black
organization.
WALLACE: Black craftsmen.
GRAHAM: Black craftsmen and black organization. They
actually got . . . that was the Odd Fellows, and, uh, . . .
WALLACE: Was it at the corner of Clinton and . . .
GRAHAM: At the corner. At Clinton . . .
WALLACE: Clinton and Washington.
GRAHAM: . . . and Washington. The white three-story brick .
. . creek stone.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: A . . .
WALLACE: A beautiful building.
GRAHAM: A beautiful building, a beautiful building, three
beauti- . . . three stories high. It was . . . it had two
businesses in the bottom.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And, then, it had a, uh, the American Legion was run
up in it, and, then, they had living quarters on one side. And,
then, they had a dance floor and the lodge. The Masonic Lodge
met up there for years and years on the third floor. They were
also there, you know. I mean, it was a nice huge-size building.
�
And when they . . . when you found out what they did to that,
just like I say, they condemned the building.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
GRAHAM: Because they couldn't get you at one way. They
couldn't say the building was dilapidated because everything was
up to snuff.
WALLACE: Yeah. What did the base the condemnation on?
GRAHAM: What did they base it on?
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: That's exactly right. But it would . . . they was
not going to let it just stand there by itself. We argued . . .
they argued with them. We argued several times. I mean, they
said they was going to reconstruct the American Legion. No, no,
that building can't stay there, you know.
WALLACE: That was the one . . . I won't say it's a lie, but at
one point one of the leaders of the urban renewal said if the
house is in good condition on a good lot . . .
GRAHAM: Good lot, it could stay.
WALLACE: . . . it could stay.
GRAHAM: Yes, exactly right.
WALLACE: And none . . . not a single . . .
GRAHAM: Not a single . . .
WALLACE: . . . one stayed.
�
GRAHAM: . . . building, not a building down there stayed.
You got . . . you sat down there and they . . . of course, they
couldn't say that that church was out of . . .
WALLACE: Corinthian was a beautiful . . .
GRAHAM: Corinthian was a beautiful church, well kept.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: Maintained inside and out.
WALLACE: Out.
GRAHAM: And it didn't stay.
WALLACE: Fortunately they did get to build at a new location .
. .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: Though they lost the pipe organ.
GRAHAM: They lost the pipe organ. They lost . . . they lost
. . they went to a tremendous amount of debt.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: See, you . . . you gave up a fixed building with all
of that space and all of the things they had. They had a . . .
they had a . . . in the back of that . . . as a kid, see, I went
to Sunday School there. That . . . all of the fellowship hall
that they had in the back of that, it was beautiful.
WALLACE: Describe it to me.
GRAHAM: The . . . the . . . behind the back of the building,
�
they built a . . . which ran into the back of that building right
into my back yard which I could look down through the back yard
the way . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . the way it was situated. And they built . . .
they got together there and build this what they called the
fellowship hall which it was . . . they had Sunday School classes
on the top floor.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: And, then, they had another big . . . what they
called school . . . Sunday School rooms where that they could
have banquet they had food. They had a kitchen, a full-fledged
kitchen.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: And it was really . . . it was a heck of a thing.
WALLACE: Sounds almost like a community center . . .
GRAHAM: And it had offices . . . right . . . it was like . .
. and that's what they used it for. We used it as a community
center. That was the . . . it was the original . . . it was one
of the originals of community centers.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: And, then, they . . . when they took that, you know,
there was no comparison to what they have over there.
�
WALLACE: Right, right, on Murray and Second.
GRAHAM: Right. There's no comparison over there.
WALLACE: Well, I've sort of taken up a lot of your time.
GRAHAM: It's been fun.
WALLACE: But you . . . you have given me more in the last hour
and a half than almost anybody I've talked to.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: I always leave . . . I've talked to about a half a
dozen to ten people now, and I always leave wondering if I asked
the right questions.
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Was there any question you expected me to ask that I
didn't or something that you wanted to say when I . . . when I
first called you that you haven't got a chance to say?
GRAHAM: No. I was just trying . . . I got to going over a few
things in my mind that I didn't, you know . . . I had no idea
what you . . . what you . . . you know, what questions . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . you were going to ask.
WALLACE: I thought about writing them out and sending them,
but I got to thinking that maybe there would be other things
you'd want to talk about and if I gave you a list of questions,
you'd . . .
�
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . feel like, well, I shouldn't talk about these.
GRAHAM: I . . . I . . . I've opened, you know, the
adversities. I can . . . I can handle a little, as I say, it's a
strange thing. I talk about it a lot now. In some ways, we had
better relationships during those times than I think we'll ever
have.
WALLACE: You mean white/black?
GRAHAM: White and black, that's right.
WALLACE: Because you both suffered adversities?
GRAHAM: We were both suffering adversities. And . . . but,
in some ways, it's like this guy that I know down there, and in a
way I like to tell the story about one particular guy. We used
to fight every day, but we wouldn't let nobody else fight.
[Laughing - Wallace] You see. I mean, we fight over bottles or
fight over something, but nobody . . . no other white guy better
not jump in here or no black guy jump in here because, you know,
that was one little thing. This guy got killed. His name was
Buncomb Killion, Buncomb Killion. And he was Bottom rat. He was
totally a Bottom rat. He, uh, was the nephew of one of . . . the
guy that used to be the fire chief over in the Frankfort fire
chief.
WALLACE: Ahh, yeah. I'm going to talk to one of the firemen.
�
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: A guy came up to me at the Senior Citizens Center and
said he wanted to talk to me. He worked with Bixie [Benjamin]
Fallis. I cannot think of his name.
GRAHAM: Well, I was sorry . . . you know, now, like I said.
I had a lot of . . . you'll probably hear about a guy name of
Artis Quire. We . . . or some of the Brookses, R. T. Brooks.
WALLACE: I talked to R.T.
GRAHAM: R. T. Brooks, see, Opal Brooks. Uh, his name was
True. She married a guy named True. But, I mean, all during
those early years, oh, we played ball right behind their house on
the sandbar, we called it.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: And we had . . . we even . . . when the city was . .
. they were courting us to the point where they was putting
lights up down there where we could play at night. And that was
to keep us from trying to play over in the . . . over on . . . on
Second Street.
WALLACE: Street, yeah.
GRAHAM: And that was all that was . . .
WALLACE: So, they put lights up at the sandbar?
GRAHAM: Put . . . yeah, put lights on the sandbar. They did.
And finally that was, uh, the City Commissioner . . .
�
WALLACE: Back in the forties [1940s] or something?
GRAHAM: Back in the forties [1940s]. They put that . . . put
the . . . put the, uh, this was in '46 [1946] and . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: Yeah, '46 [1946] we got out of service. They put . .
. they put the lights up over there. [Laughing]
WALLACE: Isaac Fields told me a story, said as a kid when the
water came up, they used to have a dump down by the river.
GRAHAM: That's right, exactly.
WALLACE: They'd get big sticks and they'd wait for the rats to
come out.
GRAHAM: We'd go there and kill them rats. And they'd run out
of there like . . . see, right next to the ball field was the
dump.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: And, then, a little light . . . they had a little
light out there, you know. And them rats, you could . . . I
mean, I'm talking about big rats.
WALLACE: Cat-size . . . [Laughing]
GRAHAM: Cat-size rats. I mean, you'd have to war good,
you'd have to go to war good. [Laughing - Wallace] In fact,
they had to take baseball bats and finally had to kill them rats
off. But that was . . . that was . . . when they . . . they'd
�
start up . . . just as soon as the water would start up, that's
when . . . that was . . . that was . . . now, that was a form of
recreation for us. [Laughter - Wallace] To go down and kill
rats. . . yeah. [Laughing] And, see, a lot of times, these big
rocks and them rats would get up on the wood that would be
floating around in that area. And, of course, you'd try to knock
them off in there. [Laughter - Wallace] We did all of that, all
that sort of stuff.
WALLACE: Well, thanks so much.
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: I tell you what I'm going to do. When I get done
with this thing, I'm going to try to write up a paper on it . .
.
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . and I'm going to turn these tapes . . .
GRAHAM: Tapes.
WALLACE: . . . over to . . . you know where the Library and
Archives building is?
GRAHAM: Sure, I know where that is.
WALLACE: They have the research room back in there. And they
have a collection of oral history tapes.
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: And I'm going to turn the tapes over to that so
�
they'll be kept for . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: So many times a guy does a project and he keeps it at
his home and nobody ever gets to use it.
GRAHAM: See it, yeah.
WALLACE: So, I'm going to turn it over to the Oral History
Commission and let them keep the tapes, and I'll send you . . .
I've finished a first draft on my urban renewal paper. I'll send
you that . . .
GRAHAM: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . so you can see and if you see anything wrong in
there. I tried to make two points in there; the mirage point
that you . . .
GRAHAM: Right, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . made and the fact that, uh, Bottom wasn't just
an area of slums or poor people.
GRAHAM: No.
WALLACE: There was all kinds of people and good houses.
GRAHAM: Very good houses.
WALLACE: So, . . .
GRAHAM: Very good houses.
WALLACE: . . . when you look at . . . take a look at this and
you tell me if you think I did justice.
�
GRAHAM: Umhumm.
WALLACE: But, thanks. I mean, I've taken more of you time
than anybody else, but you had more stories than anybody else.
GRAHAM: Well, I'm glad [laughing] I could help you out.
WALLACE: You've been a great help, a great help.
GRAHAM: Well, hopefully, then, maybe I can come up with some
more pictures in detail where that these streets actually you'll
notice here's what some of them they put up. Now, you see these
big . . . they had concrete things. They had the names on them.
WALLACE: Yeah.
GRAHAM: They put them in . . .
WALLACE: Posts there.
GRAHAM: They put those in and I guarantee you it would be
in 194- . . . that was probably in 1945, '46 [1946] when this . .
.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
GRAHAM: . . . when we got back. They were new then. Now,
that . . . that . . . and on every street, they had . . .
WALLACE: A post.
GRAHAM: And I've got pictures, you know what I'm saying.
Some of them we probably . . . we come over it that will have the
street . . . you know, the street on those particular names, even
right down in the Bottom there. They had Washington Street . . .
�
WALLACE: That would be great because I could . . .
GRAHAM: . . . and Mero.
WALLACE: . . . identify buildings and things.
GRAHAM: Yeah, see. And, then, . . .
WALLACE: If I get it set up at my end with the photographer,
we'll probably have a couple of days where you can bring your
photos by and get them copied and take the originals home.
GRAHAM: Yeah. Well, I might do that if I . . . as I say, we
could probably . . . I don't know why I didn't think about it.
I've got a big album up there, but some of the things we were
able to save that, uh, even where I lived and in front of my
house, inside the house, you know, to see what kind of conditions
. . .
WALLACE: Oh, that would be wonderful. Well, we'll get back .
. . I'll get back to you later in the summer on that. But thanks
again. I appreciate it.
[End of Interview]
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