Frankfort’s Craw Oral History Project
Interview with Ellsworth Marshall, Jr.
May 17,1991.
Conducted by James Wallace
© 1991 Kentucky Oral History Commission
Kentucky Historical Society
Kentucky Oral History Commission
100 W. Broadway ( Frankfort, KY 40601
502-564-1792 ( (fax) 502-564-0475 ( history.ky.gov
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should be corroborated with the original audio recording if possible.The following interview is an unrehearsed interview with
Ellsworth Marshall, Jr. for "Frankfort's 'Craw:' An
African-American Community Remembered." The interview was
conducted by James E. Wallace in Frankfort, Kentucky, May 17,
1991.
[An interview with Ellsworth Marshall, Jr.]
WALLACE: Today is Friday, May the 17th. We're at the home of
Mr. Ellsworth Marshall, Jr. to talk a little bit about Bottom.
Are you a native of Frankfort?
MARSHALL: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Were you born here in Frankfort?
MARSHALL: Yes, born right here.
WALLACE: Whereabouts?
MARSHALL: I was born on Mero Street, right across from where
Mayo-Underwood, you know, used to be.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
MARSHALL: That was a long time ago, though.
WALLACE: All right. When were you born?
MARSHALL: 1926.
WALLACE: Twenty-six [1926]. So, you pretty much grew up down
. . .
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MARSHALL: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . Mero Street and Bottom?
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. Went to Mayo-Underwood.
WALLACE: Ahh. That's a . . . people seem to have fond
memories of Mayo-Underwood.
MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: Do you remember any of the teachers that stick in
your mind?
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. Rod Chase, Alice Samuels, uh, Mary Emma
Lindsey, Ms. Tucker . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . [Murray C.] Conda, uh, Jesse Brown, Blanton,
and, uh, the . . . oh, I forget, a big fellow. Oh, I know him
well, too. He, uh, he taught . . . he taught history. I can't .
. . Professor Johnson.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
MARSHALL: Johnson, yeah.
WALLACE: People, when they talk to me about Mayo-Underwood, it
wasn't just a school, but it was like a social center where you
could come, and they'd have plays there and . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, right.
WALLACE: . . . and . . . and, uh, I guess a place where young
people could go?
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MARSHALL: Yeah. You know, on weekends. Except during athletic
season, you know, basketball game.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: Then, there may be a social after the game.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Let me ask you. As far as the name Craw or
Bottom, did residents really refer to that area as Craw or
Bottom?
MARSHALL: Well, what comes to my mind, most of them referred to
it as the Bottom.
WALLACE: The Bottom.
MARSHALL: Maybe the older ones, you know, before me, you know,
called it Craw. But whenever, you know, asked, "Where do you
live"? "I live in the Bottom."
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: Well, everybody knew where the Bottom was, or Craw.
WALLACE: Yes. Well, the reason I asked, some people . . .
I've used the term Craw and they corrected me very quickly . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . that they consider that a derogatory . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah. Well, that . . . that . . . I guess it was.
But I always referred to it as the Bottom; never . . . I . . . I
. . . I never used the word Craw.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, I'm finding out that the less I use
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that word, the better.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Uh, your parents and your family, did you all always
live on Mero Street?
MARSHALL: When they came here.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: See, my . . . my . . . my family . . . I think they
were originally from up around Tyrone.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: In Anderson County.
WALLACE: County.
MARSHALL: But they, you know, migrated from, umm, you know. I
was part Spanish-American.
WALLACE: Ahh.
MARSHALL: Mexican.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: All of my mother's people, where they originated.
And they migrated to Kentucky.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: And they settled up around Anderson County, Tyrone.
WALLACE: Do you know about when . . . when they came to
Kentucky?
MARSHALL: No, no, I don't. It must have been in the early
�
1900's because, uh, I don't know where . . . I forget where my
mother was born. It could have been up around Anderson County.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: But, you know, when I was born, well, you know, they
were here. That was back in '26 [1926].
WALLACE: One of the things you could help me with, when you
talk about Bottom, what are the . . . what are the . . . what
area is considered Bottom? What are the boundaries?
MARSHALL: Well, what I considered as the Bottom was Washington
Street to Hill Street, and that would be running from, uh, south
to north.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: And from, uh, east to west, it would be from
Wilkinson Street, that's west . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: . . . running to . . . up to St. Clair . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: . . . on the east.
WALLACE: All right.
MARSHALL: So, that . . . that would be the boundary . . .
WALLACE: All right.
MARSHALL: . . . of the Bottom because when you left, uh . . .
when you got on to St. Clair Street, then, you got into the white
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residents . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: . . . going east. But, now, on Wilkinson Street,
when you left Wilkinson Street, you were going to the river.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: Right at the river. And Washington Street was, I
guess, on the south. That was the boundary because then that was
Broadway.
WALLACE: Yes.
MARSHALL: So . . .
WALLACE: Well, one of the things I'd like to know is was
Bottom as far as the residents white and black or all black or .
. .
MARSHALL: Oh, mostly black. Mostly black. There was a few
white. I guess, you know, they . . . they probably couldn't do
any better than we could. So . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: There wasn't many, but there were a few.
WALLACE: You make it sound like the folk down there maybe
were poor or . . .
MARSHALL: Well, you know, a lot of them were poor.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: I mean, just the average living, you know. Nothing
�
that you could really brag about because back there, then, we
didn't make any money.
WALLACE: What did your dad do . . .
MARSHALL: My dad was a dining car waiter . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
MARSHALL: . . . for the L&N Railroad, and, uh, he worked for
the railroad company until he died.
WALLACE: That would have been considered a pretty good job,
L&N.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, yeah, that was. He was always out of town.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: Yeah. That was . . . that was . . . that was a
decent job, yeah, back there.
WALLACE: Well, did most of the folks down there, did they tend
to work maybe at the furniture factory or at the hemp mill or did
the blacks tend to work in any one particular job?
MARSHALL: I remember that furn- . . . furniture factory. That
was out on Wilkinson Street. But, you know, at that time, I was
just too young to really know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: And . . . and . . . and as far as the hemp mill, that
was down there on Wilkinson Street, I really don't know whether
many of them worked down there or not.
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WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: I imagine some did. But now whether there was a lot,
now, I don't . . . I don't really know.
WALLACE: But most of the folk did work, or did they receive
assistance or . . .
MARSHALL: Well, now, you know, I don't know if they had
assistance back there then.
WALLACE: Yeah. Probably not until the fifties or forties.
MARSHALL: Yeah, see, uh, back there then. But, now, if you
didn't have it, I don't guess that, you know . . . maybe the
Salvation Army would give you some assistance.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Did your mamma have to work or . . .
MARSHALL: No, my mother never did work, never did.
WALLACE: Was that sort of the standard rule of thumb or was
she an exception?
MARSHALL: Well, now, I don't know if that's a standard rule,
but my mother never did work, never did, because, like you said,
my father, he was a dining car waiter and he made a pretty good
salary plus tips.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
MARSHALL: And with eight children . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . I think it was, yeah, seven boys and one girl.
�
WALLACE: Well, some people have referred to the area as a
slum. Do you think that's accurate, inaccurate or . . .
MARSHALL: Well, probably some parts of it, you know, maybe it
would be considered a slum in those alleys.
WALLACE: What alleys would you . . .
MARSHALL: That would be, what was those alleys?
WALLACE: Well, let's see here.
MARSHALL: Uh, I'm thinking of the alley between Clinton going
west and Wilkinson Street. That was a small alley that ran, uh,
from . . .
WALLACE: Gaines Alley?
MARSHALL: Yeah, that . . . that . . . that's probably it.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: And it ran up to the, uh . . . well, ran into
Broadway right there . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . where the train, you know, goes across . . .
WALLACE: Yes.
MARSHALL: . . . you know, that rise.
WALLACE: On the other side of Broadway is Long Lane . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . and I think on the other side was Gaines Alley.
MARSHALL: Gaines. Now, you may have considered that . . .
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WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . slum because the houses were in bad shape, you
know . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . in that alley. But, you know, maybe some of
the other people across Broadway thought all of it was slum down,
you know, down there. But there was some nice houses though.
WALLACE: That's . . .
MARSHALL: There were some nice houses.
WALLACE: That's what I've heard, that there was some . . .
there may have been substandard houses, but there was a lot of
good.
MARSHALL: Yeah. There was a lot of good houses, yeah, oh, yes.
WALLACE: Do you remember much about the house you grew up in?
Did it have indoor plumbing or a furnace or electric?
MARSHALL: Oh, electric, but no, uh . . . the first house that
I can remember, that was in '37 [1937]. It was right across from
where the State Office Building is now.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: Which is, uh, that's where the Commonwealth Credit
Union is. But, now, those houses, uh, from . . . you know where
the Commonwealth Credit Union is?
WALLACE: Yes, sure, on High Street.
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MARSHALL: That whole block . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: Those houses there were, uh, were . . . belonged to
Jim Perkins.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
MARSHALL: All of those houses there. And, uh, you know, mostly
. . . well, it was all Negroes up there. Now, that didn't have
electricity.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: And the toilet was . . . well, it wasn't outside, but
it was on the side . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: . . . of the house.
WALLACE: It was frost-free outdoor.
MARSHALL: Yeah, Umhumm. It wasn't what you would call an
outdoor house.
WALLACE: Umhumm, not a privy.
MARSHALL: But, no, there was no electricity, no.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: Now, we didn't get electricity until we moved. That
would have been after the flood, and, then, we moved closer on in
to, uh . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
MARSHALL: . . . what you refer to as the Bottom.
WALLACE: When, uh, you got out of school, where did you go
workwise and . . . did you live . . . continue to live down in
Bottom?
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, yeah. We lived on Washington Street and we
lived on, uh, Blan- . . . well, I lived on Clinton Street for a
time. And we lived on, uh, on Blanton Street.
WALLACE: Umhumm. So, you lived in . . .
MARSHALL: On Blanton . . . yeah.
WALLACE: . . . in virtually every section.
MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: What happened to you after school? Did you find work
or . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, I didn't do . . . I didn't do so much work.
Maybe in the summertime, I did, you know, some odd jobs. But
after school, no. I didn't . . . I didn't work after school.
WALLACE: I mean after you got out of high school and . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, after I got out of high school . . .
WALLACE: Yeah, yeah.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. I went to work, uh, I went to work for
William H. May. That was back in the early forties [1940's] when
they were making crates for the government.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
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MARSHALL: And I worked with my uncle at Mucci's Restaurant . .
.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: . . . at night. You know, we cleaned that up.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: And, then, during the, uh, summer, I would help him
at the Catholic School. And, then, you're coming on up to the
forties [1940's], and I came back out of service and I went to
work for the State.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay. What branch of the service were you in?
MARSHALL: I was in the Army.
WALLACE: Umhumm. You wouldn't have been in the unit that
Isaac Fields was in, were you?
MARSHALL: No, no, no, uh-uh. Isaac was ahead of me, and he
even probably went in before I did.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: What outfit were you with?
MARSHALL: Well, I was . . . I was with the 369th Quartermaster
overseas.
WALLACE: Ahh.
MARSHALL: But we were . . . did a lot of infantry training.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
MARSHALL: You know, before we went overseas. But that was
during the late part of the war, as far as I'm concerned.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: See, I wasn't . . . I was only in the service just a
year and a half.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: One year, six months and 26 days.
WALLACE: [Laughing] You've got it . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . got it down to the last day.
MARSHALL: Yeah. I remember that. And, then, that's when I,
you know, started working when I came out of service.
WALLACE: With the State. Which agency? I'm curious.
MARSHALL: When I first went to the ster- . . . State, I worked
for George Lynn Hatcher, Secretary of State. That was back in
1947.
WALLACE: Ahh. You're dating yourself.
MARSHALL: January 1, 1947. And I left the State October 31st,
1988.
WALLACE: Good grief, 36 years of service with the State.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you about . . . as far as Bottom,
the flooding. You mentioned that yourself.
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MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: Did you all get flooded out of your home?
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. We were flooded out several times. Just a
hard rain sometimes, if it'd rain hard enough, it would back up
the water there, uh, at the intersection of Clinton and
Washington.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, did the city or anybody provide
assistance to relocate people, or move them out?
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. They helped . . . they helped to move you
out. So did the National Guard.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: Oh, I was in several floods. But the worst one was
back in '37 [1937]. And, then, you know, on up, now. There was
some pretty bad floods after . . . after that, too.
WALLACE: Fifty-five [1955] and '57 [1957], I think there were
some . . .
MARSHALL: Right. And, uh, the . . . the day I brought my wife
from the hospital, I think that was in '62 [1962], my father was
moving us out of the . . . out of my house then right at the
corner of, uh, Madison and Clinton.
WALLACE: Well, did the people tend to come back after the
floods, or they just relocated . . .
MARSHALL: I always did.
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WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: Yeah, I always came back until the last, uh, flood
that I was down there, and, then, that was right at the beginning
of the renewal.
WALLACE: Yes.
MARSHALL: And that's when we left downtown and came out here.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you about the renewal. How did you
find out about it? Do you remember who told you or . . .
MARSHALL: No, no, I . . . I . . .
WALLACE: Do you remember how you felt about it when you found
out?
MARSHALL: Well, I really didn't care too much for the move. I
still don't care too much for it even now because, uh, it seems
like, to me, we were closer together down there than what we are
out here.
WALLACE: Closer in the sense of a community or . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . or neighbors?
MARSHALL: Uh-huh, neighbors. You knew everybody, everybody's
kids. Out here, I don't know anybody's kids.
[Interruption in tape]
WALLACE: That's . . . Ms. Gill said the same thing, that
people that you'd see every day when you lived down in the
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Bottom, they scattered everywhere.
MARSHALL: That's right.
WALLACE: You might see them once a year now.
MARSHALL: Right, right. And I don't know half of the people's
children that I knew as we were growing up down there. And, so,
no, I . . . I still say it. I miss the Bottom. I do.
WALLACE: When, uh, when the news came out about the relocation
and the urban renewal project, there were some public hearings
that people went to to voice their opinions and ask questions.
Did you go to any . . .
MARSHALL: No, no, no. At that time, I didn't own any property.
I think my father, he, at the time of that, he . . . he owned his
house down on Blanton Street. But, me, I didn't go because I . .
. I wasn't a property owner.
WALLACE: Right. Well, I know that, uh, some of the people
were angry and, uh, felt like they hadn't been told very much
about it. How did your dad react to it?
MARSHALL: Well, he didn't . . . he didn't really like it
either; but, you know, he never had any choice. I guess they
told us what maybe they wanted us to hear, and I don't know if,
you know, things were as good as they said, you know, it was
going to be because they was supposed to put us in, you know,
areas.
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WALLACE: That was my question. What did they tell you all, do
you remember?
MARSHALL: No, no. Like I said, and I'm just going by some of
the things that, you know, he had said. And at that particular
time, you know, I wasn't paying that much attention to all of
this because I didn't own any property . . .
WALLACE: Property.
MARSHALL: He did, and . . . well . . .
WALLACE: Some people, apparently, were so upset that they
brought in two Lexington attorneys; a guy by the name of Carroll
and Knippenberg, and tried to stop the project. I don't know who
hired the attorneys.
MARSHALL: Yeah. No, I . . . I . . . now, I don't know anything
about that. So, there's no point in me commenting on that.
WALLACE: Okay. Okay, let me . . .
MARSHALL: Had I been a property owner, probably, you know . . .
at that particular time, you know, I was . . . well, I was in . .
. what was the . . . when did the urban renewal begin?
WALLACE: Well, they didn't start relocating people or buying
up property till 1959.
MARSHALL: Yeah, '59 [1959].
WALLACE: But . . . but they formed the Frankfort Slum
Clearance Agency in 1955. It was in existence long before they
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started buying up the property.
MARSHALL: Well, we didn't leave from downtown until '60 [1960]
. . . it was '63 [1963], '64 [1964], something like that when we
came out here. So . . .
WALLACE: But you were renting all that time.
MARSHALL: Oh, yes, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Well, did you have to move around in the Bottom as
they tore down houses? I mean, did you have to . . .
MARSHALL: No. Once I moved, I just came on out here because I
was having this built at the time, you know.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
MARSHALL: So, when this was completed, that's when I moved.
WALLACE: Ahh. You . . . you're sort of lucky in that regard
because like Ms. Gill was telling me, she would rent, and, then,
the person who owned the place would sell and they'd tear it down
and she'd have to . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . move. Every time she moved, she lost
something. . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . she said, lost possessions. Did families that
lived in the Bottom, did they tend to remain there for long
periods of time or . . . some people have told me that there was
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a lot of turnover or there was . . . vagrants would come in and
live for a while and, then, leave and, then, others have said,
no, that's not the way it is; that people lived there for
generations, families.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. Everybody that I grew up with, you know,
went to school with. Now, some did move after the war and went
to, you know, Dayton . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . I mean, for better jobs, better opportunities.
But the majority of the people stayed right in the area. There's
some families that left here, but not . . . not that many.
WALLACE: I've made sort of a list of businesses and, uh . . .
well, companies that were down there that . . . like Tiger Inn.
Do you have many remembrances of Tiger Inn?
MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah, because, you know, after the games, we
would go to Tiger's Inn. Ewen Atkins owned Tiger's Inn.
WALLACE: I've never seen any pictures of it. Can you sort of
describe where it was located and what it looked like?
MARSHALL: It was . . . oh, it was just a small, small . . . it
was a small restaurant. And it was located on the corner of
Washington and Mero.
WALLACE: Okay. A lot of people talked that school children
would go there . . .
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MARSHALL: Yeah, because it was only just a half a block from
the school. See, uh, now, going west, just a half a block down
there is Mayo Underwood.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: And across the street there . . . I mean, Wilkinson,
down there is the river.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: So, yeah, that was a . . . well, mostly where all of
the school kids hung out was Tiger's Inn. And you wouldn't
called that a honky-tonk because you couldn't do anything but
play the Victrola and eat. That's all because Atkins didn't have
anything else except that.
WALLACE: Were there other black owned and operated businesses
down there?
MARSHALL: Yeah. Well, there was another restaurant right
across from the school operated by a fellow named "Shineboy".
WALLACE: "Shineboy".
MRS. MARSHALL: Yes, I was thinking about "Shineboy".
MARSHALL: "Shineboy", yeah.
WALLACE: "Shineboy".
MARSHALL: What was the name of his place?
MRS. MARSHALL: "Shineboy's".
MARSHALL: "Shineboy's".
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WALLACE: "Shineboy's".
MARSHALL: Right directly across the street from Mayo Underwood.
WALLACE: And that was a restaurant, too, you think?
MARSHALL: Yeah, it was.
MRS. MARSHALL: It was. On [inaudible] Street.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.
MRS. MARSHALL: Had beans and cornbread and . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
MRS. MARSHALL: Fixed everything.
MARSHALL: Directly across the street from Mayo Underwood.
MRS. MARSHALL: He was [inaudible] . . .
MARSHALL: And that was on the corner of, uh, that alley, Gaines
Alley, I guess you would call it and, uh, Mero.
WALLACE: What happened to "Shineboy's" business after urban
renewal came in and . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. "Shineboy", he left.
MRS. MARSHALL: He had been gone.
MARSHALL: Yeah, he . . . yeah, he had gone. He left, you know,
after they, I guess, started buying up the property, because he
never owned the building.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
MARSHALL: He just rented. But, now, I don't know about Tiger
Inn, now, whether Ewen Atkins owned that or not. He may . . .
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Ewen may have owned that building.
WALLACE: Well, he hung on till '68 [1968]. He was still in
business . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . as late as '68 [1968].
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: And I don't know . . . he tried to relocate.
MARSHALL: Yeah. I think . . .
WALLACE: He tried hard to.
MARSHALL: . . . I think at one time he came up further in the
Bottom on, uh, Washington Street.
WALLACE: Yeah. He was in there in '63 [1963] . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . to '68 [1968] when he went out of business.
MARSHALL: Umhumm.
WALLACE: And I found a letter that he wrote to the Frankfort
Slum Clearance people and he said, "I don't know if it's because
I'm black or because I'm poor or for whatever reason, but I can't
get a license to sell malt liquor and I can't find a place to
relocate to, so, I'm going out of business."
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: And he auctioned everything that . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
�
WALLACE: . . . that he owned. Were there other black
businesses? I know Dr. Holmes was down there.
MARSHALL: He was right across the street from the Tiger's Inn.
WALLACE: Do you have many remembrances of Dr. Holmes or . . .
MARSHALL: Well, he was my doctor until . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: That was my doctor, and he died here.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
MRS. MARSHALL: Until he got sick, you know . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, you know, until, you know, he just gave up
practice.
MRS. MARSHALL: About eight years ago, he [inaudible].
MARSHALL: He was my doctor from the time he came here until he
couldn't, uh . . . quit practicing.
WALLACE: Practicing.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Somebody said there was a black dentist down there.
MARSHALL: There was, Dr. . . . well, uh, what was his name,
Washington? Was it Washington, Dr. Washington? Now, years ago,
I had an uncle, Dr. Weathers, that was a dentist, but he didn't
live too long after he came out of the service. And, then, there
was another, way back. Now, you know, I'm going back farther
than . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
MARSHALL: Dr. [T.B.] Biggerstaff. He was a dentist. Now,
we're talking way back probably . . .
WALLACE: 1920's, maybe?
MARSHALL: Yeah, in the twenties [1920's] or . . . or . . . or
early thirties [1930's].
MRS. MARSHALL: Who was that doctor . . . who was that doctor on
Washington Street down there a long time ago when we got married?
MARSHALL: Are you talking about Dr. Berry?
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, when Mim got that [inaudible] in her ear.
MARSHALL: Dr. Berry.
MRS. MARSHALL: [Inaudible].
MARSHALL: He was . . . he was a surgeon. He was a good doctor,
but, you know, booze . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: . . . got to him.
WALLACE: Well, see, that's one of the things . . . there were
black teachers living down there, black doctors . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: Black professionals.
MRS. MARSHALL: [Inaudible].
MARSHALL: Yeah.
MRS. MARSHALL: Ms. Hays and Ms. Chase and Ms. Marietta. They
were good teachers.
�
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: See, and that's one thing that you tend to paint
everybody as being poor, but there were black middle-class folks
living . . .
MARSHALL: Well, I'd say, uh, uh, uh, a big part of the teachers
at Mayo-Underwood lived in and around the Bottom.
WALLACE: Umhumm, lived there right in the community.
MARSHALL: Yeah. Alice Samuels lived right in the heart of the,
uh, . . . she was the principal at Second Street until she died.
WALLACE: Do you remember Jack Robb?
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. I've been up there.
MRS. MARSHALL: Everybody loved Jack, uh-huh.
WALLACE: And Jack Robb trio and . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah . . .
WALLACE: And the funeral home.
MRS. MARSHALL: Uh-huh.
MARSHALL: We lived just right down the street from the funeral
home, see.
MRS. MARSHALL: Yes, right down from Jack.
MARSHALL: See, we lived down on Clinton and Jack lived on the
corner of Clinton and St. Clair.
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, because the Model Laundry was across the
street from the funeral home, wasn't it, Jack's?
�
MARSHALL: Right across . . . right where Cable 10 is now.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: That's Model Laundry.
WALLACE: Well, as far as some of the night spots, uh . . .
MARSHALL: Well, there wasn't any night spots. They were just
restaurants.
MRS. MARSHALL: They were just restaurants.
MARSHALL: I guess what you all call honky-tonks.
MRS. MARSHALL: A place to go in and have a beer . . .
WALLACE: Tonks.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
MRS. MARSHALL: Where you'd have a beer and play the jukebox.
WALLACE: Like Blue Moon or Tip-Toe or Peachtree?
MARSHALL: Well, you see, they were all white.
WALLACE: Ahh. Would blacks . . .
MARSHALL: No.
WALLACE: . . . avoid those places?
MARSHALL: Yeah. They wouldn't . . . but, you see, the blacks
were right across the street from them.
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, right across the street and down from them.
WALLACE: Ahh.
MARSHALL: Yeah. Like . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: That's where my . . . my step-daddy, he owned
�
a couple, I guess.
WALLACE: Mike Deakins was the place?
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, Mike Deakins.
MARSHALL: Yeah, he was white, but . . .
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: He made all of his money off of the blacks.
MRS. MARSHALL: He had some blacks . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
MARSHALL: And, then, after Mike died, George Taylor . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, George Taylor had it.
MARSHALL: . . . took them over.
WALLACE: I've heard Knott's Pool Room was down there.
MARSHALL: Yeah. All of that, see, that's right in the . . .
right on Washington Street.
MRS. MARSHALL: Will Wren, he had a restaurant.
MARSHALL: That was across the street. That was in that block
from, uh, uh, Broadway to, uh, Clinton Street.
WALLACE: Clinton Street.
MRS. MARSHALL: Yes. Will Wren had a couple. He had a couple.
He had a couple.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
MRS. MARSHALL: And my step-daddy had a couple. We had one, too.
WALLACE: What was the name of your all's?
�
MRS. MARSHALL: Kozy Korner.
MARSHALL: Kozy Korner.
WALLACE: Kozy Korner. Where was that, now?
MARSHALL: Right on the corner of Clinton and Washington.
MRS. MARSHALL: Right on the corner of . . . yeah, Clinton and
Washington.
WALLACE: Would that have been across from the American Legion?
MARSHALL: Diagonally across.
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh, diagonally, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Okay.
MRS. MARSHALL: And it used to be called Red Brick before we got
it.
MARSHALL: That was when the whites had it.
WALLACE: Red Brick.
MRS. MARSHALL: Red Brick, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: I bought it . . . I forget who I bought that thing
from.
MRS. MARSHALL: You and . . . him and his brother.
WALLACE: But you all ran a restaurant . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, we ran it all up there.
WALLACE: Do you all know Wesley Marshall?
MARSHALL: Wesley Marshall?
�
WALLACE: Wesley Marshall. Is he kin to you all, Joe Marshall,
"Big" Joe.
MRS. MARSHALL: Oh, you know "Big" Joe.
MARSHALL: Oh, no, no, no.
MRS. MARSHALL: He ain't kin to us.
MARSHALL: No, uh-uh, no.
WALLACE: Oh.
MARSHALL: His sister . . . his sister lives right up here near,
uh, East Main on Langford right behind the, uh, barber shop, if
you know where that is.
WALLACE: Yeah, I believe I do. He . . . he talked about he
was working at a restaurant one time and I thought maybe he was
working for you all.
MARSHALL: No, no, uh-uh. No, he never worked for us.
WALLACE: Well, were you in business, running your business
when urban renewal came in?
MARSHALL: No, no, uh-uh. I had gotten rid of it before that,
way before that, yeah. Yeah, because I didn't own the building
anyway.
MRS. MARSHALL: When the urban renewal came in, I was working for
Ward Oates, Mrs. Oates.
WALLACE: Oh, really?
MRS. MARSHALL: And that's how we got our home.
�
WALLACE: Ahh. Well, he ran a gas station, didn't he, and he
had a coal business?
MRS. MARSHALL: Coal.
MARSHALL: Coal.
WALLACE: . . . he had a coal business?
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, coal, uh-huh.
MARSHALL: Yeah. That was out there on Holmes Street, though.
MRS. MARSHALL: It caught afire, didn't it, though?
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: When you all think about the people who were leaders
in the community, black men and women who people turned to and
respected, who . . . who do you remember?
MARSHALL: Well, the one name that comes to my mind because I
guess he was the biggest property owner down there was John
Buckner.
WALLACE: Tell me about John. I've heard his name a lot, but I
don't know anything about him.
MARSHALL: Well, John, I don't know, he just went around and
bought up all of the old houses . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . that weren't any good to begin with when he
bought them, but John would put them back himself . . .
WALLACE: Fix them up.
�
MARSHALL: . . . and rent them. And he got an awful lot of
property cheap in that area because, you know, property in the
Bottom wasn't valued at anything, but he was a carpenter and he
did all of his work.
WALLACE: Ahh.
MARSHALL: He had some other people with him, and he owned quite
a few houses down . . . downtown. I rented from him until . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: We rented from him, two houses.
MARSHALL: . . . we came up here. Yeah.
WALLACE: Did he tend to keep them up better than, say, Dulin
Moss?
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, yeah.
MRS. MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.
MARSHALL: Dulin wouldn't do anything but collect rent.
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah.
MARSHALL: Yeah. John Buckner, I mean, if something went wrong,
you notified him . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Right. [Inaudible].
MARSHALL: Yeah. We used to live over a laundrymat that John
Buckner . . . he didn't own the laundrymat, but he was renting
and the laundrymat caught on fire and it burned, you know, the
laundrymat up plus we were upstairs. It burned us out, too. And
he put that house back together . . .
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . over a period of, you know, I guess a couple of
months or something like that. But he would keep his property
up, now.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Do you remember, uh, Will Castleman [William
S. Castleman]?
MARSHALL: Yeah, I remember Will.
MRS. MARSHALL: [Inaudible], yeah.
MARSHALL: Yeah. He worked for Mike Deakins . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
MARSHALL: . . . running the pool room.
MRS. MARSHALL: He was a nice man.
MARSHALL: Yeah. I remember old Will.
WALLACE: He apparently was something of a political force, uh
. . .
MARSHALL: Well, yeah, I guess, you know, they would all come to
Will, you know. I guess they tried to get him to get the black
votes, you know, during voting time, you know. They'd all come
down. That was the only time they come down.
WALLACE: Was to court the vote.
MARSHALL: Right, that's all. And that . . . in that era, you
know, they'd bring their booze or something like that and promise
you this, that and the other . . .
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . to get that black vote; and after the voting
was over, you never saw them . . .
WALLACE: You never saw them again.
MARSHALL: No, uh-uh.
WALLACE: I had one person say to me that when the Bottom
existed and the blacks were there, they were a political force
and you had to go down there and court the people in the Bottom .
. .
MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
WALLACE: . . . if you wanted to get elected.
MARSHALL: And that's when they came down there, at that
particular time.
WALLACE: But, then, after urban renewal and everybody
scattered . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . it busted up the vote.
MRS. MARSHALL: [Inaudible].
MARSHALL: Yeah, that's right. See, they were voting as a block
down there . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: [Inaudible].
MARSHALL: . . . but, out here, now, you've got different
precincts.
�
WALLACE: Uh, you all, does the name John Fallis mean anything
to you all?
MRS. MARSHALL: I heard of the man.
MARSHALL: He's white.
MRS. MARSHALL: Yes, he was white.
WALLACE: He was a political strong man . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . killed in the late twenties [1920's].
MARSHALL: You're right, uh-huh. I . . . I . . . I've heard the
name, you know. I never knew John Fallis, but . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: There was another . . .
MARSHALL: That Bixie [Benjamin] . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: What was that other gentleman that was shot
during the wall and, then, killed his son? What was his name?
MARSHALL: Shot through the wall and killed his . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, you remember. He lived, uh . . .
MARSHALL: I don't remember.
MRS. MARSHALL: Oh, I can't think of his name.
MARSHALL: I know George Taylor shot and killed his son.
MRS. MARSHALL: That's who I'm talking about.
MARSHALL: Well, George Taylor is not a Fallis.
MRS. MARSHALL: I didn't say he was a Fallis.
WALLACE: George Taylor shot . . .
�
MRS. MARSHALL: I didn't say he was a Fallis. I said what was
the other man's . . .
MARSHALL: Well, he's recording all this.
MRS. MARSHALL: Oh, okay.
WALLACE: George Taylor shot and killed . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, he didn't aim to.
MARSHALL: No, it was an accident.
MRS. MARSHALL: It was an accident.
WALLACE: Killed his own son accidentally, huh?
MARSHALL: Yeah, right. I think he was on the porch or
something.
WALLACE: Umm.
MARSHALL: But, now . . .
WALLACE: Let me ask you. There's, uh, someone has referred to
a "Black Cat" [Thomas Graham]. Have you ever heard . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Who . . .
MARSHALL: Thomas Graham.
MRS. MARSHALL: He was [inaudible] by marriage, Thomas Graham.
WALLACE: Thomas Graham.
MRS. MARSHALL: Uh-huh. He's got two sons living, Jimmy Graham
and Paul.
WALLACE: Is James T. Graham kin to . . .
�
MRS. MARSHALL: Jimmy Graham, yeah.
MARSHALL: Yeah, that's his son.
MRS. MARSHALL: That's his father.
WALLACE: I'm going out to talk to him Tuesday night.
MARSHALL: Yeah. That's "Black Cat's" son. That's his oldest
son.
WALLACE: They say he was an influential man . . .
MARSHALL: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, in the Bottom.
WALLACE: . . . politically.
MARSHALL: Right. You know, they'd come down and they'd get the
older ones together to get the young ones, you know, that were
voting age. Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: They'd go out to the . . . they'd bring people to the
polls and . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: . . . maybe give them some incentive to come out to
the polls, you know.
MARSHALL: Right, uh-huh. She was alre- . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: [Inaudible] talk about the blacks. It was quiet
and we'd go back [inaudible].
WALLACE: Well, that's . . . was it a . . . was it a violent
place?
MRS. MARSHALL: No, no, it wasn't.
�
MARSHALL: Oh, there was violence down there.
MRS. MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.
MARSHALL: Yeah, oh, yeah. There were killings down there, now.
Sure, there were killings.
WALLACE: Well, I've heard that a lot of the violence came into
the community when people from outside of Bottom came and partied
Saturday night . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah . . .
WALLACE: . . . and got a little bit . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah. You know, that's . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: South Frankfort now is worse than the Bottom.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: He wants to know about the Bottom. He doesn't want
to know about South Frankfort.
WALLACE: Let me ask you all. Somebody told me Saturday night,
the thing to do was go out and get your best clothes on and be
seen in the Bottom. I mean, what would you all . . . when you
wanted to go out and go to a nice place or go to a place that was
special in the Bottom, where would you go?
MRS. MARSHALL: I'd say the American Legion.
MARSHALL: Well, you couldn't go but just one or two places, the
American Legion . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Or the 99 Club.
�
MARSHALL: Or, you know, one of those . . .
WALLACE: What was the 99 Club?
MARSHALL: It was just, just a drinking place, that's all.
MRS. MARSHALL: It was a place that they had made up across the
street . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
MRS. MARSHALL: And made it nice [inaudible].
MARSHALL: Yeah, but, I mean, they was just drinking. That's
all they was, just drinking.
WALLACE: Drinking.
MARSHALL: You may be able to get a sandwich or something like
that, but . . .
WALLACE: Dance hall, they might play a tune and dance.
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, you could dance. Yeah, oh, yeah.
WALLACE: Was 99 Club across the street from American Legion?
Was that . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
MRS. MARSHALL: . . . yeah, right here.
WALLACE: Do you remember the Reverend W. R. Hutchison?
MARSHALL: Yes. I was, uh, at work in the State Office Building
the night he got burnt up.
�
WALLACE: Oh, I didn't realize he got killed in a fire.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. Reverend Hutchison, yeah.
WALLACE: He was one that spoke out against the urban renewal
pretty strong.
MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Reverend James Richardson, do you . . .
MARSHALL: Reverend Richardson?
WALLACE: James Richardson, St. John's AME.
MARSHALL: No, I'm not familiar with, uh, that particular
pastor, Richardson. What year was that, do you have the year?
WALLACE: He was . . . I know he was alive in '58 [1958]
because when they had the public hearings and the black spoke out
against . . .
MARSHALL: Well . . .
WALLACE: . . . he spoke out.
MARSHALL: Well, he may have been the pastor then, but I . . .I
. . . I . . . .
WALLACE: He may have not stayed too long either. I . . .
MARSHALL: I don't know him.
WALLACE: Uh, do you remember Alice Simpson?
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.
WALLACE: She's one that's quoted in the newspapers as opposing
the urban renewal.
�
MARSHALL: Yeah. She lived down on the lower end of Clinton
Street near Wilkinson Street, and she was a property owner. They
owned that house. She and her sister, Patty. Patty taught up
here at Kentucky State.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: And she was a teacher, too; Alice.
WALLACE: Alice was?
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Over at Mayo-Underwood?
MARSHALL: No. Well, at one time maybe she was; but, no, you
know, she . . . she was a teacher at one time. But, uh, she may
have done some substitute teaching at Mayo-Underwood, but she
wasn't a regular teacher. But she and her sister both were
educated.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you about . . . the image of the
Bottom is that, uh, . . . well, we talked a little bit about
violence. But that, uh, it was a red-light district. Is that .
. .
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. They had, you know, prostitutes, but not
on the big scale.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: No, it wasn't on a big scale.
WALLACE: Well, I've heard you could go to South Frankfort and
�
across from the police station and find, or around that area and
find the same thing.
MARSHALL: Well, you may have, but, you know, in that particular
year and time, we didn't fool around over on that side of, uh,
the South side, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: The police station, you're talking about where the
police station is now?
WALLACE: Yeah, I guess.
MARSHALL: So, that's on, uh, the, uh, west end of Second Street
across from Steele Street. So, no, we . . . we didn't have any .
. .
WALLACE: Well, that's what I've been told by people. They
said there may have been that stuff going on, but it wasn't on a
big scale. It was, you know, it was just . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, it wasn't, no, no. I mean, like you said, the
red-light district. I guess, you know, two dollars would get you
what you wanted.
WALLACE: Would it?
MARSHALL: Yeah, two dollars. It wasn't . . . I guess maybe two
dollars back then was big money.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Did the police provide adequate police
protection for the community? Did they even come down?
�
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. They would patrol down, but they would
just patrol.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: And the only time they would stop is if some
disturbance was going on.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: So, I don't know if they provided that much
protection, but I guess just the sight of the police, you know,
it may have stopped some things.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: You know, you know, just to be seen sometimes is
enough, that image.
WALLACE: James "Papa Jazz" says that Craw existed because
there was a lot of white people that made money off Craw.
MARSHALL: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: How did they make money off of it?
MARSHALL: Well, you know, they had . . . some of the Negroes
that would front for them.
WALLACE: Okay. Front how?
MARSHALL: You know, they would own the business, but we would
take care of it.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
MARSHALL: Such as, uh, the pool room, Mike Deakins. See,
�
Castleman run the pool room and he worked in the whiskey store
for Mike Deakins. So, that was white owned.
WALLACE: Umm.
MARSHALL: And Jeff, he had a restaurant. It was owned by, you
know, well, probably George Taylor at that time. But there was
some that made money off of, uh, the black community.
WALLACE: Umhumm. I imagine a lot of the property owners were
white and did not live down in the area.
MARSHALL: Right, right. Yeah, such as . . . well, Dulin Moss
was the biggest probably property owner, but there were other
property owners and, you know, in that area, they rented to the
blacks and, you know, the lower class whites that wanted to.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Let me . . . since . . .
[End of Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
WALLACE: . . . had your property, I mean . . . not your
property, the building you were living in when you were down
there during, say, the late fifties [1950's] or early sixties
[1960's], it was never condemned by the urban renewal people or
you never had to move?
MARSHALL: No, no, I didn't have to move. Now, probably if I'd
stayed there long enough . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
MARSHALL: . . . I would have, but when, you know, all of this
came up, well, we knew we would eventually have to move.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: So, since my wife was working for, uh, Ward Oates,
and, you know, he was developing this out here at that time . . .
WALLACE: Oh, he developed . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, he developed this and he told us about it,
you know, said he would help us to get the, uh, loan . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . which I, uh, had just come out of service. So,
you know . . .
WALLACE: You qualified for some . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, qualified for . . .
WALLACE: . . . veterans benefits.
MARSHALL: I think I missed out on the Veterans Administration,
but he got it through FHA.
WALLACE: Ahh.
MARSHALL: So, he interceded and, uh, he helped me to acquire
this.
WALLACE: Uh-huh.
MARSHALL: So, I guess I got out maybe before, you know, you had
to get out.
WALLACE: Yeah. Some people wound up that, uh, the property
�
owner would sell out and . . . and, uh, the tenant would wind up
renting from the city.
MARSHALL: That's right, that's right.
WALLACE: And I didn't know . . . you didn't fall into that
category because you were . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, no, because Buckner, Buckner never sold until . .
. I think Buckner sold all of his property as one package.
WALLACE: Oh, really?
MARSHALL: See, because that's who I rented from at the time
that I was coming out here was John Buckner.
WALLACE: They said some of the older homeowners held out and
tried to get a better price than what they was offered.
MARSHALL: Yeah, I guess so. My father, he held out, too, but .
. .
WALLACE: Did he . . .
MARSHALL: You know, he may have gotten a better price, I don't
know really.
WALLACE: Did he take them to court on it, do you know? Some
of them actually went to court . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, some of them went.
WALLACE: . . . to try and get . . .
MARSHALL: Now, I . . . I . . . I'd have to ask my mamma about
that. See, my mamma, she lives right around on the other street.
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: And, uh, I was out here first, and, then, after they
sold and then they came out here after I did maybe a year or two
later.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: But, uh, since, you know, I wasn't a property owner,
well, I didn't get into that. So . . .
WALLACE: Yeah. As a young person growing up down in Bottom,
what were some of the things you all did for recreation; I mean,
when you got together with your friends down there, what would .
. . where would you go, what would you do as a young . . .
MARSHALL: Well, now, if we were under age, the only place that
we could go at night would be Tiger's Inn because, then, Atkins,
he'd run us out 9:00, 9:30.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: "Let's go. You've got to go home."
WALLACE: So, you really just had maybe a street corner to hang
. . .
MARSHALL: That's all, that's right, on the street, you know,
played in the streets. No, we didn't have any . . . anyplace to
go at night at that particular time.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: Uh-uh.
�
WALLACE: I know Isaac Fields was telling me there were certain
areas of Bottom where he would not let Mike and the kids go.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: He said he didn't want them to go down where the
white honky-tonks were and . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah. And, see . . . well, they were right . . .
mixed up right in the Bottom.
WALLACE: Oh, so, the people were living all around the places
. . .
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, yeah, right.
WALLACE: And weren't in a separate area.
MARSHALL: No, no. Uh, Blue Moon was right across the street
from me. And, uh, the other restaurants on down further, you
know, there were . . . there were two or three. Estill Smith he
was up . . . much further up on Washington Street.
WALLACE: Do you remember Corinthian Baptist Church?
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Were you . . . did you attend that church?
MARSHALL: Yeah, I was Corinthian, yeah.
WALLACE: I have never heard or seen a picture of the interior
of it. Can you describe it for me, what it looked like?
MARSHALL: Oh, boy.
WALLACE: That might be a hard question.
�
MARSHALL: Yeah, because it's been so long. But, you know, it
wasn't out of the ordinary. It looked just like any other old
church, you know. Pews and, uh, stained glass windows. Now, it
was down the street from Dr. Holmes and Tiger's Inn on Mero
Street.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: About middle ways between, uh, Washington and St.
Clair.
WALLACE: Umhumm. As a matter of fact, I might even have a
picture of it here. I've got a picture of the whole area. This
is a book that was put together by the appraiser who first came
there. I think . . . now, there's Mayo-Underwood right there.
Isn't that it there, that brick building?
MARSHALL: That could be Mayo Underwood.
WALLACE: I think it was right there.
MARSHALL: Yeah, because, here . . .
WALLACE: Here's the river.
MARSHALL: Here's the river and this looks like the playground
where we used to play softball. So, you're going to come up.
So, this would be that little alley there, and right down here,
this would have to be the Tiger's Inn . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . right here. And, then, you'd come down right
�
in here, but I don't see the church.
WALLACE: I think it's right here. I think . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . that's the spire on it.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Was it a wood frame building?
MARSHALL: Oh, no, no, it was brick.
WALLACE: Oh, brick.
MARSHALL: Oh, it was brick.
WALLACE: Painted perhaps or . . .
MARSHALL: Well, now . . . this could be it because this spot .
. . . now, this would be . . . see, Mayo-Underwood set right on
the alley, and, then, come on up one block, and, then, Tiger's
Inn was right here and this would be Washington Street . . .
WALLACE: Street.
MARSHALL: . . . went on to Hill Street and, so, cross over.
This is where Dr. Holmes would be. So, it would be right in
here.
WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah. I think that is it.
MARSHALL: Right in here.
WALLACE: Right there.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: That's the only picture I've seen . . . I'm having a
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real hard time . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . finding anybody who has pictures of the
buildings or the families or anything.
MARSHALL: No. I don't have . . . I don't have a picture of it.
But this . . . this would have to be it right in here because it
was between, uh, Washington and St. Clair.
WALLACE: Umm. Yeah. Here's . . . on the . . . now, here's .
. . here's Clinton, I gue- . . . no, wait, that's Broadway. This
must be Clinton here.
MARSHALL: Yeah, because Clinton would be, uh, one block down
from Broadway.
WALLACE: Broadway. I think that's . . .
MARSHALL: And, then . . .
WALLACE: . . . the American Legion building there.
MARSHALL: And, then, Mero Street would be here.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: This looks like it . . . because that was the biggest
building down there at that particular time.
WALLACE: Umm. Cater-cornered across from Mayo-Underwood, was
that the Frankfort Electric and Water Plant Board's maintenance
shop? What's . . . what's this cleared area? Do you remember
what that was? Can you see this?
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MARSHALL: Yeah. This . . . this is where the . . . the
electric light company had, you know, some equipment and things
here.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: Like, this would be halfway between, uh, Clinton and,
uh, Mero Street.
WALLACE: Mero.
MARSHALL: It would be on the left going down towards the hill.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: You know, back towards the hill. Yeah. So, they . .
. they had equipment there.
WALLACE: Oh, my. Well, you've given me a lot of your time. I
. . . what I'm hoping to do, I've got a list of about 30 names,
mostly black folk and some white folk, and I'm going to talk to
all of them and put together as good a research paper as I can on
urban . . . I didn't ask you too much on urban renewal because
you sort of told me that you were renting, then, and you weren't
really . . .
MARSHALL: No, I wasn't . . . I wasn't really interested in it
other than, you know, have to . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: . . . have to move.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
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MARSHALL: Now, had I been a property owner, I may have taken
more interest.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: But at that particular time, I was in my early years
and, uh, it just didn't bother me that much. Now . . . but, now,
I . . . I know my . . . my father, you know, they didn't . . .
they didn't like it. Well, I . . . I hated to move myself, but
they didn't have any choice.
WALLACE: Well, if, if, uh . . .
MARSHALL: Any choice.
WALLACE: If you could bring the Bottom back, would you do it?
MARSHALL: Oh, I . . . I would go back. I've told my wife a lot
of times, I don't like out here. I'd much rather be downtown,
but I don't want to go over on the south side now where . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: . . . that . . . to me, over there, that's worse.
WALLACE: Murray and Third, . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . they say, is getting really bad.
MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: I drove by there the other night . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah . . .
WALLACE: . . . and there was 20 . . . it looked like at least
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20 young black guys and . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . I don't . . . it looked like trouble was
getting ready to . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah. And every time there's a vacancy, a
house, it looks like they turned that house into the slum.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: Just tear it up. And it never happened like that
down in the Bottom in an empty house like that. It would stay
empty and intact until it was rented.
WALLACE: Well, that's . . . Ms. Gill said the same thing to
me. She said, "Even . . . even the streets and things, we kept
them pretty clean."
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. Over there looks like a dump.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: Looks like trash.
WALLACE: That maybe some of the houses weren't as modern as,
you know, they should have been; but at least people made an
effort . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . to keep things.
MARSHALL: It wasn't . . . it wasn't all that dirt, waste all
out in the street like it is over there.
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WALLACE: Well, Isaac Fields said he didn't even have a locking
door on his house, that, uh, there wasn't widespread crime.
MARSHALL: No.
WALLACE: Is that the way . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah. No, there wasn't no widespread crime, you
know. The only trouble that would come up down there at the
Bottom would be coming from alcohol, drinking.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: Like that, but as far as crime, no, uh-uh. No, no.
A lot of times, I wouldn't lock my door, just leave it open,
unlocked.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: Never did. I've gone away from home, me and my wife
a lot of times, just pull the door to.
WALLACE: Left it shut.
MARSHALL: Not now.
WALLACE: No, not now.
MARSHALL: Not now.
WALLACE: Mr. Marshall, thanks . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . a bunch. I appreciate it. When I get my paper
written, I'll send you a copy and . . .
MARSHALL: Okay.
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WALLACE: . . . see what you think about it.
MARSHALL: Yeah. You know, you may be able to get more of what
you want by talking to your older people that are still living,
you know.
WALLACE: Who would you recommend that I should . . . would be
a good person to talk to?
MARSHALL: Now, that's . . . that's what I've been . . . I
really don't . . . you know, the people that are older than me,
you know, their mind just may not be all there.
WALLACE: They're incapacitated and . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh, see, because I'm right at 65 now
myself.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: So, you know, you have to, you know, get somebody 75,
80 years old. Oh, they could recollect some things, but I'm
trying to think who is out this a-way that lived in the Bottom.
And I just . . .
WALLACE: I've got a list of some of the people. Let me see if
I can find that. I stuck it in my pocket here.
MARSHALL: Yeah, see if you've got any older people on there
now, see. If you start talking to people like me or younger,
well, you know . . .
WALLACE: Well, like I told you, I'm going to talk to James T.
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Graham.
MARSHALL: Yeah, that's Jimmy.
WALLACE: On Tuesday.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: And I guess these are relatives, Paul Graham . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, that's his brother.
WALLACE: . . . and Annie Graham.
MARSHALL: Well, now, that's . . . that's his mother. Now, she
may be able to, uh, give you more. Uh, that's "Black Cat's"
wife.
WALLACE: Oh. Annie Graham was?
MARSHALL: Ann Graham.
WALLACE: Ann.
MARSHALL: If that's the same Anne Graham now.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: Where does she live?
WALLACE: Uh, 20 . . . no, wait a second. High Street, I
guess.
MARSHALL: Well, yeah, that's them. That's her. See, see,
Jimmy lives right up here behind, uh . . . you know where Pic-Pac
is?
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: That street, Myrtle?
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: And, then, it's the first street to the left.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: Now, Paul, he still lives with his mother.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: So, now, she lived down behind Dr. Holmes on, uh,
Washington Street. So, she could probably give you a lot of, uh,
information.
WALLACE: Information.
MARSHALL: And, uh, she went up there, you know, when they had
to.
WALLACE: Henry Mack.
MARSHALL: Well, yeah, Henry Mack. Well, I don't know where
Henry Mack lives. He's . . . he's older, too, now.
WALLACE: Ella Sanders.
MARSHALL: Ella, Ella Sanders?
WALLACE: I couldn't . . . I've yet to reach . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, I know Ella. That's Henry's sister-in-law,
Henry Sanders. Henry could probably give you some information.
WALLACE: Henry Sanders.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Could.
MARSHALL: That's, uh . . . that's, uh, she married Robert,
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Henry's twin brother. But, see, Henry lives right . . . right
over here across from me. But, now, Henry is older than I am.
Not a great deal, but he is older.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: And, uh, he lived down there.
WALLACE: Do you know a Sam Barker?
MARSHALL: Sam Parker.
WALLACE: Parker.
MARSHALL: He lives in there. Sam is older than I am. He lives
up here on Douglas.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: You know, that's just straight across . . .
WALLACE: Across, yeah.
MARSHALL: . . . when you go to East Main, and, uh, he lives
down just before you get into, uh, uh, the apartment areas on
Doug- . . . you know where the . . .
WALLACE: Yeah. Sutterlin Terrace is back in there and, uh . .
. oh, shoot . . .
MARSHALL: Sutherland Terrace?
WALLACE: Sutterlin, Sutterlin.
MARSHALL: Where are you talking about?
WALLACE: I thought there is an apartment complex called
Sutterlin Terrace that's back in there.
�
MARSHALL: Well, I don't think that's it. These are just those
apartments that the city owns.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: And this is right at the end of Douglas . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: I'm trying to give you some idea of where Sam lives.
Just as, you know, you go on . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: . . . up Douglas and Sam lives near the end of
Douglas on the right. And, then, once you leave that area, you
know, there's just this round complex. That's that low rent . .
.
WALLACE: That's the city owns?
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: That's that low rent. But Sam lives up on . . . do
you know where Douglas is?
WALLACE: Yeah, I know . . .
MARSHALL: Well, you wouldn't have any trouble finding it.
WALLACE: Annie McClain, I've called her . . .
MARSHALL: What . . .
WALLACE: . . . Annie . . . Anna Mae McClain.
MARSHALL: Well, she, uh, you know, she could probably give you
�
some of that, but she's a, you know, arthritic now.
WALLACE: Umhumm, okay.
MARSHALL: Arthritic and . . .
WALLACE: Well, I . . .
MARSHALL: So, she doesn't get out of the house, yeah, so . . .
WALLACE: Well . . .
MARSHALL: And she's another good one.
WALLACE: Naomi Carr.
MARSHALL: Naomi Carr?
WALLACE: Bertie Samuels.
MARSHALL: Oh, now, yeah. Now, see, now, Bertie was Alice's
sister. They were right in there area until they had to leave.
WALLACE: Oh, Alice Simpson's sister?
MARSHALL: No, Alice Samuels.
WALLACE: Samuels, I'm sorry.
MARSHALL: Yeah, Bertie. Now, see, she lived right in the heart
of what you would call the Bottom.
WALLACE: Bottom, okay.
MARSHALL: On . . . on, uh, Washington Street.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: Yeah, that's a good one.
WALLACE: Margaret and Henry Ellis.
MARSHALL: Uh, they live out this a-way, yeah. They . . . their
�
family lived on Wilkinson Street near the school. Yeah, they
were down there.
WALLACE: Elizabeth Oglesby. I tried to call her.
MARSHALL: She's around here, right . . . right next to, uh,
Eugene Robinson.
WALLACE: Did she have a business down there?
MARSHALL: Had a beautician shop.
WALLACE: A beautician shop.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Somebody told me she had a business.
MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh, and they lived right across the . . .
they were right across the street from where I lived. That was
on Clinton Street.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: Yeah. She . . . yeah, they . . . they had a nice
business, a big house, brick house, yeah.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Anna Belle Williams is one they've told me
to talk to.
MARSHALL: Anna Belle, well, she lives out off of 127 there.
You see, her husband's, uh, uh, family, they were right down in
that area on the lower end of Washington Street.
�
WALLACE: Okay. And, then, some of the others, uh . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, these are all good people, you know.
WALLACE: Mattie Jones.
MARSHALL: Mattie Jones.
WALLACE: Or Lattie. I don't know if it's Mattie or Lattie.
MARSHALL: I'm not familiar . . . on . . .
WALLACE: She lives on Douglas now.
MARSHALL: Uh, that's not K. Lee Jones, is it?
WALLACE: Now, that might be. I might have misheard and
written it down wrong. K. . . . K. Lee?
MARSHALL: Katie Lee.
WALLACE: Katie Lee, okay. That is. That is.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: That is.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: She lives right across from Sam.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: So, you wouldn't have any trouble finding that.
That's a good one. Who is this?
WALLACE: That's you.
MARSHALL: Oh. [Laughter - Wallace]
WALLACE: And, there's George and Leona Chiles. I've yet to
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reach them.
MARSHALL: George and Leona Chiles, now, that is . . . oh, I
know. George, uh, they live on the south side on Fourth Street,
George Chiles. And, uh, we always called her "Sis".
WALLACE: "Sis", okay.
MARSHALL: Yeah. Yeah, that's . . . now, "Sis" has been around
here all her life, but at one time, you know, they all moved away
from here. They were away from here for a long time, went to
Cleveland. And they just come . . . oh, they've been back
several years.
WALLACE: Years.
MARSHALL: But, you know, after . . .
WALLACE: They've been gone.
MARSHALL: . . . they retired, yeah, oh, yeah. They . . . I
don't even know if they were around here during the urban
renewal.
WALLACE: Renewal.
MARSHALL: But she could still give you some . . . because they
lived right in that area, too.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: Because she and her mother lived right next to the,
uh, Frankfort and Electric storage area.
WALLACE: Ahh.
�
MARSHALL: Right next to it.
WALLACE: Okay. Catherine Fletcher.
MARSHALL: Catherine, oh, that's Cag's wife. I don't know where
she lives, but she used to live on, uh, Second . . . I mean, Mero
Street right across from the, uh, Corinthian Church. But I don't
know where Catherine lives now. But I know Catherine.
WALLACE: She apparently has a sister, Helen Taylor?
MARSHALL: Yeah, Helen, yeah. I don't know where she lives
either, but they . . . she . . . they all was in my age group.
WALLACE: Oh, okay. You think they might be a little younger
than . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah. I don't know if they're any younger, but
they're right in my age group because we all came up together.
WALLACE: Yeah. Maggie Knott.
MARSHALL: Maggie, well, now, Maggie is older. And she lives
out here on Greenview Avenue.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: See, that's Bob Knott's wife, the one you was talking
about that run the restaurant.
WALLACE: Knott's Pool Room?
MARSHALL: Yeah, right.
WALLACE: Okay.
MARSHALL: So, she could . . . she could give you a lot because
�
they lived down on Washington Street, too; yeah.
WALLACE: What about, uh, Mattie Brown?
MARSHALL: Mattie Brown? She lives right down the street here.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: Yeah. See, that's, uh, her sister.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
MARSHALL: And they all lived down on Washington Street at that
particular time before they left and just scattered.
WALLACE: Between Broadway and Clinton or Clinton and Mero sort
of?
MARSHALL: Uh, it's Clinton and Mero.
WALLACE: Mero.
MARSHALL: Where . . . where they lived, on the right.
WALLACE: Mary Chestnut . . . no, Chenault, Mary Chenault, I'm
sorry.
MARSHALL: Mary Chenault, 115 Douglas. Mary Chenault, I'm not .
. .
WALLACE: Not familiar with her?
MARSHALL: Mary Chenault. No, I'm not. Now, I know . . . I
know, uh, Walter Chenault, but he's dead. But I can't remember
Mary Chenault. No, but, you know, I don't know everybody,
though.
WALLACE: Yeah. Charles Fields. I've already talked to Isaac.
�
MARSHALL: That's . . . yeah, that's Isaac's brother.
WALLACE: Brother.
MARSHALL: Yeah. He lives on the south side, too. See, they
are older. So, you know, you could get something there. You've
got Henry right there.
WALLACE: Yeah.
MARSHALL: See, Henry lives right over there, right next to me.
Yeah, so, Henry is a good one to talk to.
WALLACE: Walker and . . .
MARSHALL: Right down the street here. See, but, now, "Doll",
he left here right after the war.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: And "Doll" just came back way after the urban renewal
because "Doll" was gone for years and years.
WALLACE: You make it sound like a lot of the black vets who
came out of the war went north to find . . .
MARSHALL: They did to find, you know, better jobs.
WALLACE: . . . jobs.
MARSHALL: Better paying jobs.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: But, you know, some did and, well, a lot of us
didn't.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
MARSHALL: Yeah, but . . . but "Doll" did and, "Doll", he hadn't
been back here too long, but, uh, but he . . . he . . . he did .
. . "Doll" went up in New York.
WALLACE: Ms. Helen Berry on Holmes Street.
MARSHALL: Helen Berry.
MRS. MARSHALL: Mary Helen.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, that's . . . yeah, Mary Helen, yeah,
uh-huh.
WALLACE: And Dr. Cheaney, I've got to talk to Dr. Cheaney.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah. Now, you talk to Dr. Cheaney and I'm sure
Dr. Cheaney can . . . you see, now, Dr. Cheaney . . . I don't
know if he ever lived downtown, but . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: He lived on Clinton.
MARSHALL: Yeah, that's what I was thinking, yeah, yeah. Dr.
Cheaney . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: [Inaudible] on Mero.
MARSHALL: Yeah, so, yeah, you talk to Dr. Cheaney, now.
WALLACE: Yeah. He's . . .
MARSHALL: I'm sure that he could give you just about as much
information as anybody.
WALLACE: George Simmons, I want to talk . . .
MARSHALL: George Simmons lives right down in that area from
where Cheaney is, up here in College Park.
�
WALLACE: Umhumm. He . . . I talked to him on the phone. He
sounds like a fast talker.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, yeah. George, you know, he was, uh, you
know, some of the people that the white people would come to, you
know, for things. Yeah, George, yeah, you can get a lot of
information out of George.
WALLACE: And I met Mary Emma Ellis.
MARSHALL: Who is that, "Sis"?
WALLACE: Mary Ellis.
MRS. MARSHALL: That's "Buddy's" mother, Mary Emma.
MARSHALL: Oh, Mary Emma? Oh, yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: She's a very nice lady.
MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: And James . . .
MARSHALL: And James Ellis. Yeah. Now, "Buddy" was another one
that, you know, had a little influence.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
MARSHALL: "Buddy" Ellis.
MRS. MARSHALL: Yeah. He had a little influence. He had
[inaudible].
MARSHALL: Yeah. He lives right, uh, uh, uh, right down . . .
MRS. MARSHALL: About two doors down . . .
MARSHALL: . . . near the church on Murray Street, if you know
�
. . .
WALLACE: Okay, Murray Street.
MARSHALL: Yeah.
WALLACE: Second and Murray.
MRS. MARSHALL: Uh-huh.
MARSHALL: Right, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Right there at the corner.
MARSHALL: Yeah, right.
WALLACE: That's . . . I've got some . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah, so, you've got some good people to talk to,
now.
WALLACE: Yes. James . . .
MARSHALL: James Calhoun, he lives right down on the lower end
of, uh, Murray near the river.
WALLACE: They say he's in a trailer down there.
MARSHALL: In that trailer, the onliest trailer. So, you're
right across from the American Legion. So, you wouldn't miss it.
WALLACE: Yeah. A lot of people told me I've got to talk to
James.
MARSHALL: Yeah. And you can't go any further unless you're
going down into the river.
WALLACE: In the river, okay. [Laughing]
MARSHALL: So, it's on the right now going, uh, going down on
�
Murray Street. So, it's . . . he's a good one to talk to.
WALLACE: Yeah. If I can get all of these people over the next
couple of months, I'll be doing . . .
MARSHALL: Oh, you should . . . you should have, uh, more than
enough information.
WALLACE: Information.
MARSHALL: But, I'm sure like Henry Sanders and Cheaney and
Buddy Ellis, those are the kind of people that, you know, can
really . . .
WALLACE: Can give . . .
MARSHALL: Yeah . . .
WALLACE: . . . information.
MARSHALL: Right.
WALLACE: Thanks a bunch.
MARSHALL: Okay.
WALLACE: I really appreciate it.
MARSHALL: All right.
WALLACE: And I hope . . .
MARSHALL: It was interesting, too.
WALLACE: I hope whatever I turn out . . .
[End of Interview]
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