Frankfort’s Craw Oral History Project
Interview with Alex Sanders
March 27, 1991.
Conducted by James Wallace
© 1991 Kentucky Oral History Commission
Historical Society
The following interview is an unrehearsed interview with
Alex Sanders for "Frankfort's 'Craw:' An African-American
Community Remembered." The interview was conducted by James E.
Wallace in Frankfort, Kentucky, March 27, 1991.
[An interview with Alex Sanders]
WALLACE: At least it's turning now. So, I feel pretty good
that it's . . .
SANDERS: She sits here in case I make a mistake or something
like that.
WALLACE: Chime in.
MRS. SANDERS: No, I'm not going to say anything because I don't
know.
WALLACE: Well, this is the only . . .
SANDERS: Well, I don't know too much. We were married at the
time. We was living in South Frankfort. But my parents lived
down in that area.
WALLACE: Ahh.
MRS. SANDERS: And your grandmother.
SANDERS: My grandmother.
WALLACE: Where in the area did your parents live, Mr. Sanders?
SANDERS: They lived on Mero Street.
WALLACE: Mero. Whereabouts on Mero?
SANDERS: Uh, 316 Mero Street.
WALLACE: 316.
MRS. SANDERS: That's almost down near the . . .
WALLACE: I was trying to think in relation to Corinthian
Baptist.
SANDERS: We lived two houses from Corinthian Baptist Church;
and, later on, my mother bought a house and we lived four houses
from Corinthian Baptist.
WALLACE: About what . . . what period of time would that have
been when . . .
SANDERS: Uh, it was in the forties [1940s].
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
SANDERS: And fifties [1950's].
WALLACE: So, you weren't actually born on Mero Street?
SANDERS: No. I was born in Clark County.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay. When did your family relocate, then, to
Frankfort?
SANDERS: Oh, they came to . . . oh, I guess they said four or
five weeks after I was born we moved to Frankfort.
WALLACE: But they didn't go right to that Craw section?
SANDERS: No, no, no.
WALLACE: They went to South Frankfort, is that correct?
SANDERS: Let's see. I can't remember, but I think my mother
and father lived at 314 . . . no, 316. That's where they were.
WALLACE: Okay. Well, let me . . . the reason I'm here is to
do really two things; to talk a little bit about the area, Craw,
or Bottom or maybe there was other names, I don't know; and,
also, to talk a little bit about what happened during the
relocation process. So, let me start just a little bit on . . .
on Craw in general. Uh, did the people living in that section of
Frankfort, to your knowledge, uh, refer to it as Bottom or . . .
or Craw or did they have a preference for what the . . . what
they called the area?
SANDERS: Well, most people that didn't live in the
neighborhood, they called it Craw.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: And Bottom. And many time, I . . . if you was
visiting somebody out of town . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: . . . and they would always say, "How's Craw or how's
the Bottom coming along," or something like that, you know. They
had been to Frankfort before.
WALLACE: Umhumm. It had a reputation . . .
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . that extended beyond . . . beyond Frankfort.
Uh, when you talk about that area, what would you say the
boundaries . . . it's sort of fuzzy in my mind as what area
specifically does that include?
SANDERS: Well . . .
WALLACE: Was it from the river?
SANDERS: Uh, to the river to, uh, St. Clair Street.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: And Broadway to Hill Street.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: They considered that 50 little acres, you know.
WALLACE: It was considered . . .
SANDERS: Fifty acres.
WALLACE: Fifty acres.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay. Uh, as far as . . . let's see. Let me think.
Let me back up just a little bit. And your parents, you say,
lived on Mero Street.
SANDERS: Mero Street.
WALLACE: In the forties [1940s], okay. Can you describe your
. . . the home? Do you remember very much about it?
SANDERS: Well, we lived at two locations. Uh, the first house
my parents lived in was a duplex.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: And we lived downstairs and my grandfather lived
upstairs.
WALLACE: Did you all have, like, running water and inside
facilities and . . . and . . . and a furnace and all of that in .
. . . in the building, do you remember?
SANDERS: No. We didn't have no furnace, but we had running
water. We had outside toilet; but later on, we got an inside
toilet.
WALLACE: Inside toilet. Did you all own the property or did
you rent?
SANDERS: No, we didn't. We rented.
WALLACE: Okay. Do you remember who the owners were offhand?
That's a long time ago. That's really not a fair question.
SANDERS: I can't remember right offhand.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: No.
WALLACE: All right. What condition was the building in? Was
it pretty well kept up by the owners or . . .
SANDERS: It was well kept up, yeah.
WALLACE: Kept up.
SANDERS: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: Well, you get the impression from these articles that
all of the houses were, uh, ramshackle. But what I'm hearing you
say is there were houses that were well taken care of.
SANDERS: There were houses down there that were well taken
care of. But just like any other neighborhood, you know, some of
them was run down and probably needed work and everything like
that. But . . .
WALLACE: In general.
SANDERS: . . . in general, it was a nice location for the
people. You know, people didn't look . . . didn't realize they
was living in a ghetto, I guess, or living in a slums at that
time. But the thing about living down in Craw, it was a nice
place to live, you know. You didn't have to lock no windows or
close no doors or anything like that at night; no.
WALLACE: Well, that's one of the things I wanted to talk to
you a little bit about. Did people . . . people chose to live
there, in other words, because it was either the best that they
could get or . . .
SANDERS: It was probably the best that they could afford.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: You know, at that time, the black people didn't have
too good of a jobs, I would say.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: I'd say the distillery was the best paying job at
that time.
WALLACE: Those that did work, were most of them at the
distillery or did they work, uh, at any one particular place,
most of those who did manage to have a job?
SANDERS: Well, a few of them worked at the distillery; and at
the distillery, they were considered probably as laborers.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: You know. And at that time, I remember my father, he
worked at the Capital Hotel as a waiter.
WALLACE: Did your Mamma have to work, too?
SANDERS: My mother worked, yes. She worked in the . . .
private family in South Frankfort.
WALLACE: Oh, for a particular family?
SANDERS: A particular family.
WALLACE: Oh, okay. Uh, were most of the residents, uh, black
in the community or were they white or was it integrated or how
was the mix of . . .
SANDERS: Well, most of the people, I would say, were blacks.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: But they did have a few whites living in the area.
WALLACE: So, were most of the blacks in Frankfort living in
that section?
SANDERS: No, uh-uh. Uh, that was considered North Frankfort.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: And over here in South Frankfort had a large number
of blacks living in South Frankfort.
WALLACE: Oh, at that time, then.
SANDERS: That's right.
WALLACE: A whole separate community. Would . . . were the
communities, I guess, on a par economically or was South
Frankfort considered sort of you were . . . you'd made it if you
got to South Frankfort in the black . . .
SANDERS: No, I wouldn't say that. It's just the location . .
.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: . . . of probably where a house was available. If
somebody, uh, was getting married, is, here was a house . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: . . . available, they moved into the house.
WALLACE: So, there wasn't any stigma amongst the blacks living
here in Frankfort about living in Craw or living in South
Frankfort. It was just wherever you could . . . could afford a
house.
SANDERS: Wherever you could afford a house.
WALLACE: Uh, were most of the . . . when you all were living
there in the forties [1940s], did families tend to live there for
long periods of time or was there a lot of turnover and new
people coming in all the time sort of?
SANDERS: I would say most of the people lived there for a long
time.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: A long time because they had a lot of elderly people.
WALLACE: Who had lived there . . .
SANDERS: Who had lived there for years and years and years.
WALLACE: So, long tenure or long periods of residency were not
uncommon, is that . . .
SANDERS: No.
WALLACE: Okay. I've sort of made a list of some of the
businesses and . . . and neighborhood spots that might spark a
memory or maybe there's some I won't mention that you want to.
So, let me just run through this list and you stop me if you have
a particular memory. Uh, the Mayo-Underwood School. Do you . .
.
SANDERS: School for the blacks.
WALLACE: Did you attend?
SANDERS: I attended. My wife did, too.
WALLACE: I've never heard a . . . I've never seen a picture of
it or heard it described. Can you describe the school and . . .
SANDERS: Well, the school was on the corner of Wilkinson and
Mero Streets.
WALLACE: Okay. Was it brick or . . .
SANDERS: It was brick . . . it was kind of a large school at
that time. It was built, I think . . . I think it opened up in
the thirties.
WALLACE: Like grades one through twelve all . . .
SANDERS: One through twelve.
WALLACE: Okay. Black teachers, white teachers.
SANDERS: No, black teachers.
WALLACE: Black principal.
SANDERS: Black principal.
WALLACE: Who was . . . who was principal at the time you were
going through, do you remember?
SANDERS: Uh, Professor Blanton.
WALLACE: Blighton?
SANDERS: Blanton.
WALLACE: Brighton.
SANDERS: Blanton.
WALLACE: Okay. I know I heard a lot of blacks talk about
Mayo-Underwood with a lot of a positive sense that it . . . it
was a good school.
SANDERS: It was a good school.
WALLACE: Had a good education from there. What about
Corinthian Baptist Church? Did you all . . .
SANDERS: It was on Mero Street.
WALLACE: Did you all attend Corinthian or . . .
SANDERS: I attended First Baptist.
WALLACE: Ahh, over on Clinton.
SANDERS: On Clinton Street.
WALLACE: Have you heard of the People's Pharmacy in the old
Odd Fellows building? That was a three-story, cut-stone building
over on Washington Street?
SANDERS: Yes.
WALLACE: I don't think the pharmacy was in there in the
forties [1940s]. Do you remember the building?
SANDERS: I remember the building, but I don't remember the
pharmacy.
WALLACE: What was in it, do you remember?
SANDERS: I remember it was, uh, a black dentist by the name of
Dr. Gay.
WALLACE: Ahh. That's the first time I've heard . . . now, we
. . . we spoke about Dr. Holmes. I didn't realize there was a
dentist down there.
SANDERS: Yeah, they had a dentist, and his name was Dr. Gay.
WALLACE: Yes. What about Tiger Inn?
SANDERS: Tiger Inn was a local place where, uh, while
attending the school, you know, you had a chance to go in and get
something to eat . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: . . . at lunchtime and it stayed open until quite
late, till twelve or something like that.
WALLACE: So, really, it was a safe spot for neighborhood kids
to grab a meal or . . .
SANDERS: Yeah . . .
WALLACE: . . . listen to a jukebox or something. Can you
describe it to me? Was it . . .
SANDERS: Well, it was . . . it was on the corner of Mero and
Washington Street.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: It was an upstairs and a downstairs. The man that
ran the place was named Ewen Atkins.
WALLACE: Okay. Was he black?
SANDERS: He was black.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: What was upstairs?
SANDERS: They rented out. There was a family that lived
upstairs.
WALLACE: All right. And this had booths and things like that
downstairs?
SANDERS: Had booths, you know, and a jukebox.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask. There's a number of other places
that were sort of, uh, tippling houses. The Blue Moon.
SANDERS: The Blue Moon was, uh, white.
WALLACE: Okay. Who owned that, do you remember?
SANDERS: I really don't know, you know.
WALLACE: Where was it? That's one thing I haven't really pin-
. . .
SANDERS: I'd say Blue Moon was on Washington Street.
WALLACE: Okay. Had you ever gone in it?
SANDERS: No. [Laughter]
WALLACE: It's not a place . . . was that not a place that
blacks . . .
SANDERS: No. At that time, you know, you might have went in
there for a beer, you know, with somebody, you know. I was
probably too young to go in there at that time anyway.
WALLACE: Oh. You'd probably got a whupping if you . . .
[Laughter]
SANDERS: Yeah, [inaudible].
WALLACE: What about Tiptoe Inn? Do you remember Tiptoe?
SANDERS: Tiptoe Inn was a white place, too.
WALLACE: Peachtree Inn.
SANDERS: Peachtree was a white place.
WALLACE: That's interesting because when I hear people talk
about Craw, they mention those places but they were not . . .
apparently from what I'm hearing you saying, blacks either
visited them infrequently or they didn't particularly patronize
those places. Is that what I'm . . .
SANDERS: They just didn't patronize those places.
WALLACE: Places. What about Robb's Funeral Home?
SANDERS: Robb's Funeral Home was on the corner of Clinton . .
.
WALLACE: St. Clair?
SANDERS: . . . and St. Clair, a local business.
WALLACE: And that was a black-owned business.
SANDERS: It was black-owned, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Was it Jack Robb?
SANDERS: Jack Robb and his father.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: His father died . . . when his father died, he took
over.
WALLACE: Umhumm. And that had been there for a pretty good
long time.
SANDERS: It had been there for a long time.
WALLACE: Yeah. That's what I thought. And they . . . after
the blacks were relocated . . .
SANDERS: I have a picture of that. I'll show it to you.
WALLACE: Oh, really? I'd like to see that before I go
tonight. Uh, do you recall any of the black-owned businesses
that, uh, you have memories of that I haven't mentioned, some
places?
SANDERS: The only black-owned business I can think of, like I
said, was Dr. Gay, the dentist. Dr. Underwood, he was a local
doctor.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Jackson Robb Funeral Home.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Tiger Inn.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: That's probably the only . . .
WALLACE: Only ones that you . . .
SANDERS: . . . ones I can remember.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you. When you think about back to
that period and you think about the African-American community
that was down there, and the whites, too, who . . . who were the
leaders in the community, the people that, uh, you could turn to,
uh, for help or had political clout? Do you . . . can you . . .
do any names just sort of leap to the front of . . . I know I'm
being sort of vague, and I wrote down some names like Dr. B. T.
Holmes and, uh, Alice Simpson, James Berry, John Buckner. These
are people I knew that fought the relocation. But there may have
been others down there. Will Castleman.
SANDERS: Will Castleman, yes.
WALLACE: What's the story . . . "Papa Jazz" mentions him as
being a force in politics. I don't know anything about him.
SANDERS: Well, he was a man that lived down there at the time;
and when the politicians came around, they would always go to him
to try to get the black . . . for him to swing the black votes.
WALLACE: Votes. How would he swing the votes, though? I
mean, what . . .
SANDERS: Well, all he would do is . . . he was a popular man
down there and he would just probably tell them, you know, "This
is my man, would you vote for him," or something like that.
WALLACE: Now, he could . . . he could get the votes out?
SANDERS: He could get the votes out, yeah.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay. And, uh . . . well, he's not . . . is he
with us anymore?
SANDERS: No.
WALLACE: He's gone.
SANDERS: He's gone.
WALLACE: A long time. Do you have any memories of, uh, the
Reverend James Richardson of St. John's AME or the Reverend W. R.
Hutchison at First Baptist?
SANDERS: Reverend Hutchison was my pastor at First Baptist.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay. Well, he was a vocal opponent of the
relocation program. I remember that. I've seen several quotes
on his part. As a matter of fact, all the church leaders, the
black church leaders, were opposed.
SANDERS: They were opposed, but they couldn't do nothing, you
know. They didn't have nothing to fight with, you know.
WALLACE: Any political clout to . . . to counter what was
going on. Well, let me . . . let me go on just a little bit
here. I heard that . . . well, Craw is an area that's a lot of
times associated with violence or crime or prostitution or
gambling; but, yet, earlier you said that you didn't have to lock
your doors or your windows. I mean . . .
SANDERS: At that time, yeah. I remember a lady by the name of
Ms. Matt Hardin. She's the type of lady that would go visit
people late at night.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Or go help somebody that was sick.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: And many times, I would hear her talk about she could
walk through the Bottom and when she got to the Bottom she was
safe. She would have to . . . when she got to the Bottom, she
was safe. [Laughter - Wallace] She didn't have to worry about
nothing, you know.
WALLACE: The reverse of what everybody else says . . .
SANDERS: Yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: . . . don't go through the Bottom at night.
SANDERS: No, she said when she got to the Bottom, everything
was all right.
WALLACE: So, as far as maybe the black community, Craw wasn't
any more violent than any other area . . . maybe less violent
than . . .
SANDERS: Probably so.
WALLACE: . . . being in some . . .
SANDERS: Ever so often, you might hear of somebody getting
shot.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Or a stabbing or something like that. But that's in
all communities now. But it wasn't as bad as people thought it
was in the Bottom.
WALLACE: Why wasn't it? Was there a sense of neighborliness
or . . .
SANDERS: Well, uh, sometimes, uh, not local people, but people
out of town brought a whole lot of violence into the Craw.
WALLACE: They came there to get liquored up or to get . . .
SANDERS: Probably liquored. They'd fool around at those
restaurants and joints and things like that.
WALLACE: Yeah. And, so, they brought the trouble with them,
then.
SANDERS: Some of them did, but some of them was local at that
time, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, that's one of the things that Mike
Fields tells me. He says, "If you get down around some of the
joints now, the Blue Moon, the Peachtree or Tiptoe, you could
find violence", because maybe for the very reason that you're
saying. Others were coming into the community. But he said,
"Most of our area" which he was over on Blanton, "there was no
problem over there."
SANDERS: There was no problem.
WALLACE: Uh, did the police provide adequate law enforcement
for the residents in the area, or did you all see the police in
that area?
SANDERS: The police rode by quite often. They was always down
in there.
WALLACE: Any problem with flooding? I've heard that a lot of
times Craw and Bottom was one of the first areas to get inundated
whenever there was a flood. Did you experience any of that?
SANDERS: Yes. I was living down there at the time when they
had the big flood in '37 [1937]. My parents were living on, uh,
Mero Street.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And, uh, the water always came up in the sewers
around Clinton and Washington and Mero and Washington. The water
would start coming up right through the sewers.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And it just started spreading and spreading and
spreading. But that floodwall . . . you know, they talk about
the floodwall now?
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: In 1940, they was talking about the floodwall. You
know, I see articles in the State Journal sometimes fifty years
ago . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: Fifty thousand dollars was allotted to, uh, the City
of Frankfort for the study of a floodwall.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: That's 50 years ago, man. Where [laughter] . . . I
guess in another 50 years, they'll still be talking about it.
WALLACE: Well, did the families in the area get . . . get
adequate assistance to relocate during a flood? I mean, did you
all have to move out?
SANDERS: Yeah, we had to move out.
WALLACE: Where did you all . . .
SANDERS: We moved over to South Frankfort.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: My mother's auntie lives up here on Murray Street.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And we stayed over there for a few days until the
water went down.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Okay. And you had to take out all of your
belongings and furniture and all of that?
SANDERS: Yeah. A lot of people lost a lot of belongings and
furniture at that time.
WALLACE: And that's sort of, in the back of my mind, what I
was suspicioning about the condition of the housing is, it's . .
. it's hard enough to keep a house up anyway. But you get it
inundated by floods every other year and, of course, the
condition . . .
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . of the housing is going to be bad. Uh, let me
get on to a different subject here a little bit about the origins
and the impact of the urban renewal project on North Frankfort.
Do you know where the idea came from to . . . to, uh, have the
urban renewal project? You know, where it originated? Was it
the white business community? Was it some outsider? I have yet
to find out what the source of the idea was for having urban
renewal come to this area of Frankfort, and I thought maybe you .
. .
SANDERS: I know . . . I really don't know.
WALLACE: Know. Do you remember when you first heard about the
slum clearance project or how you heard about it?
SANDERS: Well, I think it was, uh, in the paper that they was
going to have a meeting at Mayo-Underwood's High School.
WALLACE: Public meeting?
SANDERS: A public meeting.
WALLACE: Do you remember when they had that?
SANDERS: I can't say.
WALLACE: Okay. I've seen some things on meetings in about
'58. January and February of '58 [1958] they had some meetings.
One over at . . . one over at the courthouse.
SANDERS: I don't remember the one at the courthouse, but I do
remember the one at, uh, Mayo-Underwood.
WALLACE: Tell . . . tell me what happened there during the
meeting?
SANDERS: Well, they was trying . . . they was telling the
people that they was going to take their property and they would
be located someplace else. And just like I said, I'll never ever
forget this guy. His name is Shouse. He worked for the state at
the time. And he was telling the people that, "Once we take this
property and clear out all of these houses and things . . . " the
people would be given a . . . would have a chance to build back,
to buy back.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: But that didn't sound too good at the time. The
people didn't believe it.
WALLACE: What was the general . . . what was your reaction to
the project when you knew?
SANDERS: Well, I was thinking about my parents at that time
because I was married.
WALLACE: Okay. You had already left . . .
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . the area and were living in . . .
SANDERS: I was living in South Frankfort.
WALLACE: . . . South Frankfort. How did your mom and dad take
it?
SANDERS: Well, they didn't like it, you know. They had their
home paid for and everything like that.
WALLACE: So, they had no outstanding debt on their home at
all?
SANDERS: No, no. It was paid for.
WALLACE: Well, in the hearings, did . . . did people get a
chance to voice their questions or . . . or, if they were upset,
get a chance to sound off or . . . at that meeting at Mayo-
Underwood? Did the residents pretty much speak out?
SANDERS: Well, some of the people got up and spoke out against
it.
WALLACE: Umhumm. What kind of . . .
SANDERS: Well, most of them said, "Where will we go"? or "How
much will we get for our property if you buy it?"
WALLACE: And were they given adequate answers or what kind of
answers did they get?
SANDERS: Well, they probably got answers like, uh, "You'll
get, you know, an amount, a certain amount of money."
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: But I always thought . . . think that is the wrong
saying, as I would say, on kind of . . . whatever you get is not
enough to replace your home. I don't care what you get.
WALLACE: Because it has more value . . .
SANDERS: Yes, it has.
WALLACE: . . . than just the wood and nails. Okay. There was
a petition circulated. I don't know if you've seen a copy of it,
but I believe Mr. Buckner and . . . and Ms. Simpson and others
got a petition up and circulated it amongst the community
members. Do you know if your parents signed off on it or . . .
it was in opposition to the project and they got over 253
signatures from residents down in the Bottom section opposing the
project. Do you remember seeing it or hearing anything about it?
SANDERS: I don't remember seeing it.
WALLACE: Okay. Did your . . . did your parents take any
actions besides attending the meeting at Mayo-Underwood, any . .
. anything to . . . to voice their opinion or to . . .
SANDERS: No, I don't think they did.
WALLACE: That's one of the things that I was sort of curious;
if most of the homeowners felt, or even the tenants felt like
this was a done deal and there was very little that they could do
about it. I know that apparently somebody retained two lawyers
from Lexington, a Mr. J. S. Carroll and a Mr. Knippenberg, and
they helped with the petition and they attended some of the
meetings. And I don't know who paid for their services.
SANDERS: I was getting ready to ask you. Who paid for their
services?
WALLACE: I don't know, and that's one of the things I want to
find out. If I keep talking to enough people, I want to find
that out. Somebody must . . . unless they volunteered their
services. Did your parents feel like they got a fair price for
their home, or how did . . . how did the acquisition of their
home work? Do you remember?
SANDERS: I believe they set a price for my parents. They gave
them a certain amount of money, but it wasn't enough money to
cover their house that they bought later on.
WALLACE: So, they had to go back into debt.
SANDERS: They had to go back into debt.
WALLACE: Debt.
SANDERS: Most of the people had to go back into debt. They
didn't get enough.
WALLACE: Did . . . did people go to court to try and get a
better settlement?
SANDERS: No, didn't nobody go to court. I can't remember
anybody going to court at that time.
WALLACE: Yeah. The only condemnation suits where people went
to court, there was a family called Wisenberg which is, I think,
was a Jewish family, and none of their people lived in Bottom,
but they were absentee property owners and they owned lots of
property. And they went to court and actually lost money
[laughing] lost money on the deal. Uh, where did your parents
relocate to?
SANDERS: They moved in a house on Mero Street. They were two
blocks up.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay. Beyond the Salvation Army there on Mero?
SANDERS: Past the Salvation Army.
WALLACE: On towards Holmes Street?
SANDERS: No. That area right there where the employment
office is.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: They bought a house right there.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
SANDERS: They moved there, and they tore that house down.
WALLACE: Oh. So, they had to relocate twice?
SANDERS: Well, at that . . .
WALLACE: When did they tear that house, the second house down?
SANDERS: It was back in the, let's see, seventies [1970s], I
I think, early seventies [1970s].
WALLACE: Oh, okay. So, there was . . . there was a pretty
good period of lag time in there between they had to relocate
from the first time to the second time.
SANDERS: Yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Okay. So, their house was taken maybe for the
parking lot for that . . .
SANDERS: Yeah. That's what it was.
WALLACE: Okay. Boy, they must have been heartbroken to have
to . . .
SANDERS: It's tough, you know, move twice and they take the
house both times.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Where did they go the second time?
SANDERS: Well, my father passed.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
SANDERS: Yes. My mother was in a nursing home at that time.
WALLACE: Do you know of any of the people that their homes
were bought and they rented . . . some . . . some of the things
I've read about is the city would buy the home, okay. But they
didn't have no place to relocate the people. So, you would pay
rent to the city if you were a tenant. Do you know of any . . .
any of the people who were tenants that rented . . .
SANDERS: From the city?
WALLACE: . . . from the city, yeah.
SANDERS: I don't remember. I didn't think the city owned any
property at that time.
WALLACE: Okay. Well, what they would do is they would go in
and buy the property; and if there was supposedly not proper
relocation housing to be found, they would allow the tenants to
continue living there and pay their rent to the city. And I've
seen some newspaper articles that verify that, and I don't know
how many families were in those circumstances. And, then, when
they found housing eventually, they would relocate them and
they'd tear down the housing. Do you know of anyone who was
evicted from their housing, or have you heard of anybody that had
an eviction?
SANDERS: [Inaudible]. No, I don't.
WALLACE: Do you know if any of the members of the . . . of the
community, the black community, were involved in the planning of
the project or . . . when were they informed? I mean, were they
involved early on in the project at all or were they just brought
in at the public hearing, so to speak?
SANDERS: I don't remember. I don't remember any blacks being
. . .
WALLACE: Involved.
SANDERS: . . . involved at all.
WALLACE: Yeah. See, I've read where the planning phase was
totally completed before the public hearings. And in the
planning phase, they'd already determined that (a) all of the
houses were going to come out; (b) what was going go back in
there was supposedly a park and a number of other things. But
I've never heard of any references of a black person being
involved in that planning.
SANDERS: What happened to the park idea?
WALLACE: Well, a couple of things. Uh, because they had no
floodwall and the area was subject to inundation, they could not
get private developers to come in and build the low-rent housing
that was supposed to come back into the area. They couldn't, uh
. . .
SANDERS: But what cut out the low-rent houses? It wasn't
planned that way?
WALLACE: Well, actually it was planned that they were to build
low-rent housing, 75 units back in the redevelopment area, within
the 50 acres in some place. And at one point, I heard it talked
about it was going to be built close up there to Fort Hill, not
where Riverview is now; you know, the 30 units that they have
there now, but a little bit around the corner maybe where Hill
Street would have been. And they built Sutterlin instead up
behind Kentucky State, Sutterlin Terrace.
SANDERS: Yes.
WALLACE: And that's 45 units up there, and that left 30 units
which went in at Riverview, down at the base of the hill. But I
think what happened is the state came in and got working with the
Feds about the floodwall; and, then, once the floodwall got wiped
out, then, the state said, yes, we'll put our office tower; and,
then, the John C. Watts came in and, then, the YMCA.
SANDERS: Then, they built the floodwall.
WALLACE: And that . . . that all took place about Fall of '64
[1964] or early '65 [1965]. The whole project changed and the
local slum clearance agency had the petition, the HUD people, to
allow the change because the original plan had none of this. The
original plan, as you were telling me, had the people getting
their housing back in the same area. Do you remember at the . .
. how the black community reacted when they changed the plans?
SANDERS: Well, a lot of them were upset about that. You know,
they thought, sure, since the people had told them that they was
going to be able to move back in that area and they was going to
build houses for them, a lot of people was upset about that.
WALLACE: Well, the ones that didn't . . . you know, there was
over probably three to four hundred families in that area, and
they built only 75 units of public housing. So, where did most
of those people go; South Frankfort? Did a lot of them come over
. . .
SANDERS: Well, East Main. A lot of them went to East Main.
WALLACE: Just bought private housing that they . . .
SANDERS: Probably bought houses and rented them.
WALLACE: Umhumm. And, so, just scattered out up on the East
side of town. Whereabouts on East Main, do . . . was there any
particular area?
SANDERS: No particular area, but probably up there around
Douglas and places like that.
WALLACE: Yeah. Was your family eligible or even interested in
public housing? Would your parents have considered that?
SANDERS: No, no, they wouldn't.
WALLACE: Supposedly there were to be low-interest federal
loans made available to the homeowners seeking to buy homes. You
could get a, like a twenty-year loan with, uh, a zero down
payment for three percent interest. And I . . . I need to check
that . . . those exact figures, but very low-interest loans were
supposedly available from the federal government. Did your
parents get any kind of special loans?
SANDERS: This is the first I've heard of that.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: My parents, when they bought the second house, they,
uh, First Federal financed their house.
WALLACE: Okay. But there was no special consideration that
you're aware of? Did they get any kind of assistance from the
city or, uh, from any other source as far as relocation,
underwriting the cost in moving or helping with the move or . . .
do you remember?
SANDERS: No, I helped with most of the moving myself.
WALLACE: Okay. Some people did receive payments to relocate
because I've seen relocation fund sheets where they paid less . .
. like $60 to move Ms. Fallis. Ms. Fallis had Bixie [Benjamin]
move her, which Bixie [Benjamin] was her own son and I'm sure he
didn't charge her much of anything. [Laughter]
SANDERS: Uh-uh. As I recall, I was working for the library at
that time, and I asked my boss, Ms. Willis, could I borrow one of
the trucks and she let me use one of the bookmobiles.
WALLACE: To help move . . .
SANDERS: And I moved . . . me and my father helped to move
most of the families.
WALLACE: Did your parents ever indicate to you they felt like
they got a fair price for their home?
SANDERS: No, they didn't, uh-uh.
WALLACE: They felt like they did not?
SANDERS: They didn't get a fair price. Most of the people
there didn't get a fair price for their house.
WALLACE: In other words, they were just told, you're going to
get this, take it or leave it.
SANDERS: You're going to get this, take it or leave it, you
know.
WALLACE: And I think you indicated earlier that you're not
aware that many of them went to court to fight it?
SANDERS: They didn't go to court to fight it.
WALLACE: Why?
SANDERS: People at that time, they didn't have no money.
WALLACE: They didn't have money to retain lawyers or maybe . .
.
SANDERS: Yeah. See, I know . . . most of the people down
there were elderly people. And what little money they had, they
had to live on it day by day.
WALLACE: They just didn't have the resources to fight back.
SANDERS: They just didn't have nothing.
WALLACE: Do you know how much time passed between the time
your parents' home was bought and the time that they found
another house and moved when they're . . . were they . . .
SANDERS: It didn't . . . it didn't take them long . . .
WALLACE: To . . . to find . . .
SANDERS: . . . to find a house.
WALLACE: They were probably an exception to the rule, then,
because most of what I've read is that people had . . . a lot of
them struggled a long time to find houses they could afford. Why
do you think it was so difficult for these people to find
affordable housing? Was it . . . was there prejudice as far as
people not selling houses to blacks or they didn't have low-cost
housing available or . . .
SANDERS: Probably at that time, they didn't have low-cost
housing. And I guess most people were just trying to find a
house regardless of where it was.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: They was trying to find a house.
WALLACE: Did your parents feel like the experience left them
economically worse off than they were before or better off or . .
.
SANDERS: It was about the same.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: Just about the same.
WALLACE: I know "Papa Jazz" Berry said that some of the
people, the relocation and . . . and changing their lives
actually worked to their benefit. They got better housing and
they . . . some of them did better economically.
SANDERS: But most of them had to go in debt.
WALLACE: So, you would say that his experience was the
exception, not the rule.
SANDERS: Yeah, uh-huh, especially if you wanted to own your
own home.
MRS. SANDERS: What did you say?
SANDERS: Most of them had to go in debt.
WALLACE: The black businessmen that you mentioned, the dentist
and the doctor and some of the others, did they reestablish their
practices or did they quit practicing or do you . . . do you
know?
SANDERS: Well, I think Dr. Holmes died. Dr. Gay moved away.
Dr. Holmes relocated over here on the corner of Murray and Third
Street.
WALLACE: Did he try . . . did he practice out of his home over
at Murray and Third?
SANDERS: No. He had a little office right down here on . . .
[End of Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
WALLACE: . . . right on site without the . . . the picture
ever leaving your house. You bring the portable copy stand and I
might, if it's not an imposition, make a copy of that.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: I had never seen a picture of the Robb Funeral Home.
SANDERS: Yeah, that's it.
WALLACE: Of the people who are . . . are left who . . . who
remember the process of happened back in the fifties [1950s] and
sixties [1960s], is there anyone you could refer me to to talk to
about it, anyone that you think would be . . . have some . . .
some knowledge of it?
SANDERS: I might know of one fellow, James Calhoun.
WALLACE: All right.
SANDERS: He lives at the end of Murray Street.
WALLACE: Okay. He was down there and went through the
relocation?
SANDERS: I don't know where he lived at that time. I can't
recall where he lived at.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: But get in touch with him. He might be able to tell
you some things.
WALLACE: Give me the name again.
SANDERS: James Calhoun.
WALLACE: James Calhoun, okay. When you think back on what
happened and what stands there today, was the urban renewal
process and what happened a good thing, bad thing or . . . or
what do you see as the significance of the outcome of it all?
SANDERS: Well, urban renewal has always meant one thing to me;
Negro removal. And my brother always said that when they took
the Bottom away from the people and . . . just less than a
million dollars for buying up all of the houses and everything,
they've spent $50 million over there today.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: He said, that's a monument to the people that was
living in the Bottom.
WALLACE: I heard it referred to as a monument in the sense of
a tombstone; that it's . . .
SANDERS: Oh, I didn't think of it . . . yeah.
WALLACE: . . . a death of a community.
SANDERS: Okay. I didn't think of it that way.
WALLACE: Well, it . . . I . . . this is my personal opinion.
I . . . I'd sort of agree with you that it was a neighborhood,
that there were human relationships there. And "Papa Jazz" Berry
sort of gets at this. That once those people were moved out,
those relationships drifted apart and ended; and the sense of
community that was there was destroyed by this project. And
whether or not you think the project was good or bad, you have to
decide was . . . is what's there now worth the destruction of
that community? And some . . . some people will tell you that
the people who left got better houses or got better opportunities
and got taken out of substandard homes and . . . and that is . .
. some of that is true, I'm . . . I'm sure.
SANDERS: You know what would be good? But it would take a lot
of time. If you could follow up the people that lived at a
certain house, where did they go to after they left the Bottom;
where did they go to after they left that house?
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: You know, that would be nice, you know. And, then,
maybe you could find out what really happened to the people.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: You know. Did they enjoy living at this new place;
did they enjoy living at this new apartment; did they enjoy going
in debt?
WALLACE: Well, Mike Fields has told . . . he's given me the
names of four people. There's a John Jackson, I believe; and
there was a woman who, uh, I can't think of her name. I don't
have it on me . . . with me, that moved to public housing, okay,
and stayed in public housing . . . stayed as soon as they were
relocated and have stayed there for the rest of their lives. And
those people, I want to sit down with and find out how they felt
about it. Not just the homeowners, but the people who . . . who
rented and when they were relocated. I like your idea. What I
might do with that list on that map, I might type that up
sometime and . . . and circulate it around and people can tell me
who has gone on and, uh, I can check them off. But, then, find
out who is living from that list that I can track down and do
exactly what you said, see where they went, what did they feel
about it. That's the story that never gets told . . .
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . is the story of the people who lived there.
SANDERS: But there's not going to be too many of them.
WALLACE: That's the thing, you know. It's . . . you know,
it's over 30 . . . it's 30 years now. That's hard to believe.
See, I was born in '57 [1957] and we're talking about things that
really happened from about '57 [1957] through '72 [1972]. I
think the Tower opened in '72 [1972] or 3 [1973]. Well, thank
you very much, Mr. Sanders. You've given me a lot of your time.
I appreciate it very much.
SANDERS: Well, it was nothing, it was nothing. Glad to help
out, if I did help out.
WALLACE: You did.
SANDERS: [Inaudible].
WALLACE: You did very much so, sir. More . . . more than you
realize. I . . .
SANDERS: What I can't get over is, uh, you're really into
this. You know, you've got the names and the places and dates
and everything.
WALLACE: Well, I don't have them all and, uh, there's many
more records I'd like . . . I'd like to look at all of the
[Frankfort] City Commission meeting records that deal with this.
Uh, one of the things you may not know, there was a housing
project proposed for black residents of Craw, uh, in the 1940's.
As a matter of fact, it was in 1940. And you know where the Post
Office building is down here, right?
SANDERS: Yes.
WALLACE: The Feds were going to build, I think it was, like, a
40- to 50-unit housing complex right there where the Post Office
is now, and this was 1940. The City Commission . . . I mean, it
was going to be federal money. And the City Commission refused
to sign a letter of agreement. They had to have a letter of
cooperation between the city and the feds . . . and refused to
sign a letter and killed the project. And I don't know exactly
all the reasons why. I think they did not want the black
residents that close to what they saw as a maybe future office
complex or something like that. But, uh, there has been a real
mixed history of public housing.
SANDERS: But that time . . . but that time, the penitentiary .
. .
WALLACE: Had closed, now, wasn't it, '37 [1937]?
SANDERS: Yeah, they closed right after the flood.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And they tore it down and everything. But they still
left that gate.
WALLACE: Yeah. The gate was still standing.
SANDERS: Still there, uh-huh.
WALLACE: But that . . . that . . . that showed me sort of a .
. . the City Commission when they voted on whether or not to
enter into this agreement, after they decided not to, they
destroyed the records of that meeting. And I found out . . . I
mean, it just shows you that, uh, when it comes to housing for
the poor or for African-Americans or for minorities in general,
it's a real politically sensitive topic. Apparently things were
said that they did not want the public to know. That's my
impression of it. But what I intend to do, I have to have a
paper by the end of April, and it won't be the final product.
But when I get that done, the people I've talked to, I'll send a
copy of the paper to and let you all look at it and see what you
think. And, uh . . .
SANDERS: Man, you are really into this. You are really,
really . . .
WALLACE: You almost have to, though. To be in it, to be any
good at it, you have to really be excited about it. I've found
some old glass plate photographs and they date back to 1913.
They're in the collection of the Historical Society. And,
apparently, the Civic League, and I don't know if that was a
state group or a city group or what, the Civic group . . . Civic
League came down into the Bottom and made pictures of the
residences. And they don't identify where they are. It's a lot
of pictures of, of, uh, wooden buildings. There are some black
families standing in front of the buildings; some white families.
And I'm getting copies of those made and they'll be . . .
SANDERS: What's the date on it, you say?
WALLACE: About 1913.
SANDERS: Whoo.
WALLACE: Very early on, very early on. There's probably no
one left that remembers that. But I hope to have them and the
maps and things. And, eventually, I'd like to . . . to convince
the Historical Society to do an exhibit on this subject. And I
think that would attract the black community to the Historical
Society. We have very few black members, and it would also tell
us a piece of history that doesn't get told, which is the
African-American, Kentucky African-American story. So, if . . .
if it keeps going good, I hope to keep pushing it. At least,
I'll get a paper out of it; maybe an article in a historical
journal; and, then, the big thing is an exhibit, a full-size
exhibit downtown. But thank you . . .
SANDERS: You know what, I would like to go over it with you
sometime about the people, you know, some people that is living?
WALLACE: Umhumm.
SANDERS: And some are dead, you know, on this, uh . . .
MRS. SANDERS: [Inaudible].
SANDERS: . . . on that map. Where is that map?
MRS. SANDERS: [Inaudible].
SANDERS: Okay, here it is.
WALLACE: Sure. If you want to do that, that's fine. There's
. . . there's two sections or really three sections of it. Let
me get this out of your way.
SANDERS: Now, this fellow, George Simmons, is still living.
WALLACE: George Simmons?
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay. He's still living?
SANDERS: Yeah. Bessie Anderson is dead. Ernest Wooldridge is
dead. Julius Sayre is dead. I think this guy . . . I don't know
him.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: Clarence Bush is dead and Harriett Bush is dead.
George Taylor is dead. He owned, uh, uh . . .
WALLACE: He had an auto company, didn't he?
SANDERS: No. He had a liquor . . .
WALLACE: Oh, a liquor store.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: George Taylor, okay.
SANDERS: Charles Duvall, he's dead. Some of these . . .
WALLACE: Dulin Moss, he's . . .
SANDERS: He's dead.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: This Charlie Duvall is dead. But some of these are
people I don't know.
WALLACE: That's that Wisenberg group that . . .
SANDERS: Charles Duvall. John Buckner is dead. Martha Walker
is dead. John Willis is dead. Julius Sayre. I'm trying to . .
. George Simmons is the onliest one I know that's living.
WALLACE: Is he . . . George still in good health and . . .
SANDERS: Yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: . . . somebody I could talk to?
SANDERS: Yeah, uh-huh. What's this Wisenberg? Did they have
a lot of property down there?
WALLACE: They had tens of thousands of square feet.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: They, uh . . . they were gone by the fifties [1950s].
They had scattered out to, uh, oh, there are some in Houston,
some in West Virginia. And they're the ones that brought suit
about the price of their land.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And they . . . they eventually got over $50,000 out
of their property. So, they, uh, they did all right.
SANDERS: Don't you realize that's the onliest man that's
living?
WALLACE: Out of probably 50 or 60 names, the only one left.
SANDERS: These people must have owned property because I see
this, uh, John Buckner and Charlie Duvall, the probably got . . .
see, they must have owned those parcels down there.
WALLACE: Yeah, they did. I . . . I intend to go through and
count and see who were the most . . . who owned the most. Good
grief, Charlie Duvall keeps . . .
SANDERS: I know it. Wisenberg. The onliest man I know that's
still living is George Simmons.
WALLACE: Well, let me . . . there's . . . there's another
sheet here. We can go through it. This is more of the
residential area that you're familiar with maybe.
SANDERS: This fellow here is Costello Wolfe, but he's living
in Texas.
WALLACE: Costello Wolfe has moved out of state?
SANDERS: Yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: This guy, Cecil Ward, he lived over there on
Washington Street; and he moved into his parents' house right up
here, the second house from this house here. But he's dead,
though.
WALLACE: I didn't realize how elderly the people in that
community were.
SANDERS: Oh, they was. See, that's the reason they couldn't
fight this. They didn't have nothing to fight it. This fellow
here, Scott Jamison, he's still living but he's lives in
Louisville.
WALLACE: Scott Jamison, okay.
SANDERS: That's my, uh, grandfather, the one there.
WALLACE: Ahh.
SANDERS: Lived on Hill Street. Robert Williams, he's dead.
Fannie Feaster, she's still living.
WALLACE: Okay, let me . . . Fannie Feaster, okay.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Make sure we got that. She would be someone to talk
to maybe?
SANDERS: Yes. This lady here is still living, but she's in
bad shape. Schoolteacher, but she's . . . she passed, but her
sister is still living.
WALLACE: What's her sister's name?
SANDERS: Bertie Samuels.
WALLACE: Bertie . . .
SANDERS: She lives down the street here.
WALLACE: Bertie Samuels.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: This lady is still living, but she wouldn't be able
to help here. That's my mother.
WALLACE: Ahh.
SANDERS: Tony Papa. See . . . anybody ever tell you about
Tony Papa?
WALLACE: No, who was Tony Papa?
SANDERS: Antone Papa. He lived on the corner of Mero and St.
Clair and he sold ice cream.
WALLACE: Ahh, no, I'd never heard of him.
SANDERS: Didn't nobody tell you?
WALLACE: Was he Italian or . . .
SANDERS: Yeah, uh-huh, he's Italian. His daughter is still
living over . . . over on Mero Street.
WALLACE: All right, okay. Do you know what her name is, by
chance?
SANDERS: I don't know her name.
WALLACE: You don't know . . .
SANDERS: But she's still living.
WALLACE: Ahh.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay. Now, Jo Beauchamp, he . . . he's still alive.
He's a white guy, and I . . . R. T. Brooks told me to look him
up. So . . .
SANDERS: There is still some. There's not too many, brother.
WALLACE: No, there sure isn't. No, I think this last sheet is
just a relief drawing there. I don't . . . I don't think there's
any names. Let me check it.
SANDERS: No, there's no names on it.
WALLACE: That sheet shows the project, the initial project
there. And, see, that's the thing; that when they . . . like you
said to me, when they . . . when they spoke about the project
initially back in the late fifties [1950s], they were talking
about this.
SANDERS: Umhumm.
WALLACE: But by the end of the thing, they had expanded it to
include a larger area really than what was initially talked
about. They took extra parcels.
SANDERS: How did you get this drawing?
WALLACE: I found . . . Mike Fields again.
SANDERS: Oh.
WALLACE: Mike Fields helped me find it. It's . . . it's
amazing what was down in that basement and there's a bunch more
down there. If you want to look at it more, that's fine.
SANDERS: No, no, that's all right, no, uh-uh.
WALLACE: There's a picture in here that you might like to see.
Here it is. I didn't know if you saw that the last time or not.
They, uh . . . there you go.
SANDERS: Yeah, that's the . . .
WALLACE: There's Mayo-Underwood.
SANDERS: Yeah. I was living right down the street here. The
Tiger Inn was right there.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
SANDERS: Dr. Holmes was . . . .
WALLACE: Go ahead and sit down.
SANDERS: Dr. Holmes was right there. The Corinthian Church
was right along in here.
WALLACE: Yeah. I see the church building.
SANDERS: Around there, right along in there somewhere.
WALLACE: It brings it back, doesn't it?
SANDERS: It brings it back. I tried and I . . . let's see.
WALLACE: What's all of that on the west side of Wilkinson? Is
that . . .
SANDERS: This over here?
WALLACE: Right in here, right in there. It looks like some
kind of industrial site or something.
SANDERS: No. That was . . . there used to be a trucking
outfit.
WALLACE: Ahh. Okay.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: Yeah, there was a big warehouse right there. Umhumm,
right along in there. This here is the railroad track. Look how
they marked that thing off to take part of Broadway.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: They didn't take it all. They just took part of it.
WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah. And this was the very first appraisal
done on, and there were two others that supposedly were the
values. Now, there's . . . there's my place. I'm on the second
floor of that building right there, the annex.
SANDERS: Well, Jackson Robb was right along . . . he's right
over here.
WALLACE: Yeah. He would have been . . . if he was . . .
SANDERS: He was . . . yeah . . .
WALLACE: St. Clair and Clinton?
SANDERS: And . . . yeah, St. Clair and Clinton.
WALLACE: So, Clinton runs right behind us. He would have been
right . . . right . . .
SANDERS: Right along in there.
WALLACE: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay. Now, there's the Model Laundry building right
there, Mr. Peavler's building.
SANDERS: Yeah. You know, uh, the brothers that owned that,
Gaines . . .
WALLACE: Yes, the Gaines family.
SANDERS: Okay. They, uh, uh . . . his wife lives down here,
one of them.
WALLACE: Oh, really?
SANDERS: Yeah, umhumm.
WALLACE: Would she have been from that period of time, the
fifties, or is she more recent than . . .
SANDERS: Well, she probably would know, you know.
WALLACE: Okay.
SANDERS: There was two brothers that owned that laundry.
WALLACE: Do you know her full name, by chance, something
Gaines? What's . . .
SANDERS: No, I don't right offhand. I could look in the
telephone book and . . .
WALLACE: Okay, if you wouldn't . . . if you wouldn't mind,
just . . . I'd like to talk . . . the thing I'd like to do is
find somebody, one of those officials from the old Slum Clearance
Agency that can talk to me.
SANDERS: That's going to be hard to do, brother.
[Interruption in Tape]
SANDERS: Well, I don't know too much. They just told . . .
what I know is that he always helped the blacks. See, I've heard
old people talk if they needed coal, he would get them coal.
WALLACE: John [Fallis] would?
SANDERS: He would get it. He would try to help them out.
WALLACE: Well, I heard that, like, he ran a grocery store as
well as run some alcohol kind of places. But you could go to his
grocery; and if you didn't have money, he'd let you run up a tab
on him.
SANDERS: Yeah.
WALLACE: So . . . Well, I'll just . . . I'll turn that off.
Thank you very much.
[End of Interview]
1:00