1992OH01.15 Holmes
Frankfort’s Craw Oral History Project
Interview with Helen Holmes
July 25,1991.
Conducted by James Wallace
© 1991 Kentucky Oral History Commission
Kentucky Historical Society
Kentucky Oral History Commission
100 W. Broadway ( Frankfort, KY 40601
502-564-1792 ( (fax) 502-564-0475 ( history.ky.gov
Use and Quotation Policy
Authorization must be granted by the Kentucky Historical Society (which includes
the Kentucky Oral History Commission) to use or publish by any means any archival material to which the Society holds copyright. To obtain authorization, users will submit a completed Use Agreement to the Kentucky Historical Society Special Collections & Reference Services. Fees for all uses, excepting non-profit or other use, with the intent to enhance understanding of or appreciation for Kentucky’s heritage will be assessed on a case-by-case basis and added to the cost of reproduction.Users may not alter, distort, or change in any way the text or the image to be
used, unless otherwise authorized by the Society. Researchers are responsible for obtaining permission to publish by any means any material held at the Society but to which the KHS does not hold copyright. The Society is not responsible for any copyright infringement.Users will not quote or otherwise reproduce in part or in whole any archival
material, without citing the “Kentucky Historical Society,” and without giving explicit written acknowledgement of the collection from which it was obtained, as designated by the Society.Users will present to the Kentucky Historical Society Special Collections &
Reference Services one (1) copy of any publication using materials held by the Society or will provide any other proof of appropriate acknowledgment and citation as the Society will designate.Only material that will not be physically damaged by the process of duplication
will be copied. The Society reserves the right to withhold permission for the reproduction of any material involving unusual difficulty or great risk to the original.This is an unedited transcript. Quotation of materials from this transcript
should be corroborated with the original audio recording if possible.The following interview is an unrehearsed interview with
Helen Holmes for "Frankfort's 'Craw:' An African-American
Community Remembered." The interview was conducted by James E.
Wallace in Frankfort, Kentucky, July 25, 1991.
[An interview with Helen F. Holmes]
WALLACE: Today is Thursday, July the 25th, I believe.
HOLMES: No, no, that's not right, is it?
WALLACE: Yes, I believe it is.
HOLMES: I believe it is. I believe you're right.
WALLACE: And, uh, we're talking today . . .
HOLMES: My neighbor lady has a rummage sale on the 27th which
is Saturday. So, this must be about the 25th.
WALLACE: Ahh. Yes, it's getting close, it's getting close.
We're here today talking with Ms. Helen F. Holmes. I usually try
to put the name and the date on the front of the tape so in case
I forget to write it down, I . . .
HOLMES: You'll have it.
WALLACE: Yeah, I will have it. Uh . . .
HOLMES: Now, I can give you a card table if you'd like it.
WALLACE: Oh, no, this is fine. This will do. I've got . . .
got my cards balanced here and . . .
�
HOLMES: Where's your native home?
WALLACE: Well, I was born in Cambridgeshire, England. My
father and mother are both Kentuckians, but Dad was stationed . .
.
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . at an air base in England in the late 1950's.
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: But after three months, we returned to the United
States and I was raised in Jefferson County, Kentucky.
HOLMES: Well, that's not so far away.
WALLACE: Oh, no, no, no. And, uh, then, came to Frankfort to
work for State Government in 1978. Let me ask you a little bit
about yourself and . . . and, uh, all of your family.
HOLMES: Two sisters.
WALLACE: All right.
HOLMES: One in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She has three . . .
two children and they have children.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I have another sister . . . that's my . . . I'm 89 in
October.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And this sister I'm talking about is 85.
WALLACE: Okay.
�
HOLMES: And, then, I have a sister who is 81 who is in Fort
Washington, outside . . . a suburb to Washington city.
[Washington, D.C.]
WALLACE: So, you must have come from a family with long-lived
individuals.
HOLMES: Oh, yeah. Now, take that grandmother. That's my
maternal grandmother. She had a party on the 96th birthday.
WALLACE: Good grief.
HOLMES: And invited all of the family. She belonged to the
Bishop Tanner family which is quite a family in Pennsylvania.
She was the 18th Bishop of the AME church of which I'm still a
member.
WALLACE: St. John's AME?
HOLMES: St. John's AME.
WALLACE: Yes, a beautiful church building, beautiful.
HOLMES: I buried my husband from there.
WALLACE: Let me ask you. Tell me again the name of the town
where you were born and grew up.
HOLMES: Williamsport. [Pennsylvania]
WALLACE: Williamsport and . . .
HOLMES: It's not far from Harrisburg. [Pennsylvania]
WALLACE: All right. Your father and mother's name.
HOLMES: My father was John W. Fairfax. My mother was
�
Isabella Tanner Fairfax.
WALLACE: Fairfax. What . . . what profession was your father
. . .
HOLMES: My father was in charge of a whole block of Masonic
buildings.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: The city's Masonic buildings, the Masonic Temple, the
Akasha Club, the Howard Club, and we lived in the place for the
head worker, see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: My father had charge of all of those buildings. And
that was a real nice job. And it was in that same library that I
started stacking books after six o'clock. I loved to work with
the Dewey decimal system.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And they had all of these books that people had
turned in. So, it was my job to get them back on the shelf.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And I got paid for it.
WALLACE: So, this would have been about the 19-teens [1910's],
I guess, sometime in that period?
HOLMES: Yeah, umhumm. I finished from high school in, uh, I
must have finish- . . . I finished college in '24. [1924]
�
WALLACE: Where did you go to college?
HOLMES: Bucknell University.
WALLACE: Bucknell?
HOLMES: Yeah, Bucknell. I don't know whether you know it or
not.
WALLACE: No, I'm not acquainted with it.
HOLMES: It's a, uh, a small school, but I was second honor in
that high school class.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And my high school English . . . science teacher was
a Bucknellian.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: So, since I was a honor student, he got me a
scholarship to go to Bucknell.
WALLACE: Where is Bucknell located?
HOLMES: Bucknell is in Lewisburg. [Pennsylvania] It's
between Williamsport and Harrisburg. It was about an hour's ride
on the train.
WALLACE: Umhumm. And you completed your undergraduate work
there?
HOLMES: Yes.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
HOLMES: Bachelor's from there, and, then, I got my master's
�
from Columbia. And I've done some later work at the University
of . . . New York U.
WALLACE: Umhumm, umhumm. Where, uh . . . as far as . . . as,
uh, your, uh, career in education, what launched you in a career
in education?
HOLMES: I wanted to be a teacher of English from the time I
was too small to even go to school.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: I would see the students from the Dixon Center which
was located in Williamsport marched past to Central Library.
See, our home was direct across from the city library. And I'd
see them march up there, and I'd tell Mother, "That's what I want
to be." And I kept my eye on that and never wanted to be
anything else.
WALLACE: Did you get a lot of support from your parents for
your education . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . and . . .
HOLMES: Well, they . . . they had . . . they had two more
children younger than I. So, they divided up. And since I was
out on my own, I took care of it myself.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And you should. I don't think you should . . . when
�
you have two more sisters coming along, you should get something
to do to pay you enough to live.
WALLACE: When did you finally leave home and . . . and set up
your own house?
HOLMES: Well, when I . . . when I finished college, I left
home immediately. Took my first job in Durham, North Carolina.
WALLACE: What, uh, what were you doing there at Durham?
HOLMES: High school English.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
HOLMES: I taught there one year in high school English.
That's all of the high school experience I've had. My other
experience was in college.
WALLACE: To go from Pennsylvania down to Durham, North
Carolina was quite a change in locale. Did you encounter, uh, a
different attitude as far as racial relations . . .
HOLMES: Well, I'd heard it was different and I had a hard
time getting used to it, too, because I had grown up going
wherever I wanted on whatever I wanted and I knew all of my
classmates in the classrooms. Some went to Bucknell and finished
the same year I did, see. That wasn't any problem. I just had
to remember not to sit in the first vacant seat I saw on the bus.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay, which would have taken a lot to get
adjusted to, I would . . .
�
HOLMES: Yeah, because, see, I had never been used to any sort
of segregation. Williamsport, Pennsylvania didn't have it, and
you didn't have it.
WALLACE: So, the library and all public facilities were
integrated and . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: You just did what you wanted to do. I went to
Bucknell . . . I was the first black woman. They'd had one black
man finish there.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And he pastored a church. He went into the ministry
and he pastored a church in Norfolk, Virginia.
WALLACE: So, the vast majority of your classmates were white,
then?
HOLMES: All of them were but me. There was only one black
person on the campus for two years; and the last two years, a
freshman girl came from Muncie, Pennsylvania.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: So, there were two of us.
WALLACE: What . . . what years were you attending at Bucknell
again?
HOLMES: Twenty [1920] to '24 [1924].
�
WALLACE: Twenty [1920] to '24 [1924]. It just sort of took .
. . took me by surprise that, uh, your hometown would have been
integrated in that era. That's quite progressive.
HOLMES: Well, we had . . . we never knew anything about
anything else.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I mean, you just came along. There were 30, uh,
blacks in my high school class; and when we graduated, I was the
only one left. We had 300 in the class.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: It was a big school. And, uh, at the time, we had 30
blacks in that 300. Well, when we graduated, there were 200
whites and I was the only black left. I took the salutatorian's
speech.
WALLACE: Ahh. Good grief.
HOLMES: First time they'd ever had a black do that.
WALLACE: What happened to your black classmates? Had they
dropped out to work or . . .
HOLMES: They dropped out very frequently.
WALLACE: Well, tell me a little bit about how you met your
husband.
HOLMES: How I met him?
WALLACE: Oh, the first time you met him, if you remember?
�
HOLMES: Well, I was teaching in Dover, Delaware. That's
another one of the places I taught at an English department
there. And I stayed on the campus, of course. And I had a
student from, uh, from, uh, uh, where he [B. T. Holmes] was
teaching. And, uh, I used to visit the family that she belonged
to.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And I met him that way.
WALLACE: Ahh. I didn't realize he was a teacher prior to
taking . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah. He had taught science and coached
basketball.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: But he always wanted to be a doctor. So, when I . .
. when he got in my hands, I said, "Here, take this checkbook and
you go to Meharry." And I think that was the joy of his life.
WALLACE: Well, to get that kind of support from his spouse,
I'm sure he . . .
HOLMES: Well, to do what he wanted to do.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: See, I had become what I wanted to be, a teacher of
English. And Mother went to his graduation. Mother and Dad came
to . . . came to, uh, Meharry to see him graduate. And they were
�
telling the people sitting beside me, "That's my son down there
with the green robe on." Well, of course, all of the doctors had
the green stoles.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: And, then, she came to . . . Mother and Dad came to
visit me awhile here. They stayed over commencement. It was a
joy for them to see me march in with the faculty and lead our
graduating class in.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: Well, you would have thought I was graduating with a
faculty degree myself. [Laughter - Wallace] Dr. Atwood was the
president at that time.
WALLACE: Ahh. Dr. Rufus Atwood?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: I came here in his day.
WALLACE: Okay.
HOLMES: He was a fine man.
WALLACE: Well, he was the president during a difficult time.
HOLMES: A very difficult time.
WALLACE: Uh . . .
HOLMES: When you didn't have the adequate budget and he used
to ask us to . . . some of us to please come down during the days
�
he'd have to plead for his budget, see. So, I'd go down and sit
in the balcony. And just a lot of us would go down at various
times.
WALLACE: During the legislative session?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Is that where he was going to make his appearances to
. . .
HOLMES: Yes.
WALLACE: Let me ask on your husband. I hate to admit this,
but I'm not really sure what B. T. stands for.
HOLMES: Booker Taliaferro. I know you're not black because
every person . . . B.T. stands for Booker Taliaferro Washington,
you see, the big man in the Negro race.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
HOLMES: And he was named . . . he was my . . . he was the
tenth child in my husband's family.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
HOLMES: The youngest one. Sold newspapers.
WALLACE: Ahh. Booker Taliaferro Washington.
HOLMES: He didn't tie the Washington, just the Booker
Taliaferro Holmes.
WALLACE: Okay.
HOLMES: And I still get mail for him. They haven't all found
�
out that he's been dead because I still get mail.
WALLACE: Ahh. Let me see if I understood correctly. Your . .
. your husband was one of ten children?
HOLMES: Yes. He was the tenth child.
WALLACE: The tenth child. And his parents' names, what were
they?
HOLMES: Oh, Lord, now.
WALLACE: [Laughing] I'm putting you on the spot. I shouldn't
do that.
HOLMES: Uh, Amanda was his mother's name, and I think . . . I
think John was father's name. I'm not too sure about that.
WALLACE: Where were they . . . were they natives of Frankfort
or . . .
HOLMES: Oh, no, no. They were natives of Virginia. See,
that . . . Tappahannock is a suburb. They lived on the edge of
Tappahannock . . .
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
HOLMES: . . . Virginia.
WALLACE: Okay.
HOLMES: And I have some relatives down there now.
WALLACE: Well, what led . . .
HOLMES: There was a Lindsey Holmes that his wife did all of
the fine linen for the white folks that came to Tappahannock
�
which is a lakeside resort.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And when she . . . when . . . he said one day, "Let's
go out for a ride." I said, "Fine." I didn't know where he was
going. So, I dressed up. And he took me out to meet his people.
And he had three relatives; cousin Lee Christopher, cousin
Lindsey Holmes and cousin Richard. Now, I'm not sure what cousin
Richard's last name was.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: He didn't have . . . or we didn't stay with him as
much as we did with cousin Lindsey.
WALLACE: Was his, uh, family from sort of a middle-class
background or were they, uh, as far as had to pull themselves up
by their boot strings . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . or something.
HOLMES: Now, most of the . . . I didn't know but three of his
brothers. One was a head waiter in Baltimore.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: A very fine head waiter, Aubrey. Now, that was the
one we used . . . I used to go and visit even before we were
married, visit with him one . . . I'd go down . . . if B.T. had a
meeting, I'd go and stay with his brother, see. And when he told
�
his brother he was marrying me, he said, "Are you going to marry
that freckle-faced girl?" [Laughter - Wallace] And he had about
50 freckles for every one I had. [Laughter - Wallace] Well, he
was . . . he was a good fellow. They used to come here and
they'd go out hunting together.
WALLACE: Well, when did your husband . . . now, let me back
up. Tell me . . . you had spoken before we turned the tape on
about your husband's educational background. Can you tell me
again . . .
HOLMES: Virginia Union University in Richmond was his
undergraduate degree, Bachelor of Science. And, then, he taught
awhile. And, then, after we were married, he went to the
University of Michigan where all of the science majors at
University of Virginia went.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: It was just a sort of tradition. He had good
friends, so, he went where they went. And that's how he got into
the University of Michigan.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: He graduated and got his MS there, and, then, he went
to Meharry and got his MD.
WALLACE: When did he graduate from Meharry?
HOLMES: '47 [1947].
�
WALLACE: '47 [1947]. And did . . . after '47 [1947], did he
relocate to Frankfort to . . .
HOLMES: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . practice?
HOLMES: He came to Frankfort. A doctor here, a black doctor
here, was going back to Norfolk [Virginia]. I don't know whether
that was his home or not. But they didn't have a doctor.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And he came. And I didn't know he was going to, but
I came here with the idea that I'd be closer to him while he was
in school. Well, you could run down from here to Meharry in a
couple of hours.
WALLACE: Where . . . I hate to admit this. Where is Meharry?
I don't . . .
HOLMES: Ahh, Meharry . . .
WALLACE: I don't . . .
HOLMES: . . . Nashville.
WALLACE: Oh, Nashville, Tennessee, okay.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay. Yeah, it wouldn't be that far at all.
HOLMES: No. And, see, I was younger and I drove then. Doc
had his car and I had mine. And I was in various things around
here, helped open up the pool up there on the hill, integrated
�
it. They had said we could swim on Friday and they would clean
it out on Saturday and reopen it. I said, "It won't do." And we
had a meeting all planned. So, I got three . . . this young man
and two others who were in school who were good swimmers. I got
them to go up there opening day. And the people were so nervous,
they charged them . . . what change they should have had, they
gave them back what they should have paid [laughter] to go to
that pool, I found out later.
WALLACE: When . . . do you remember when this took place, the
move to integrate the pool? Was that . . . do you remember what
year . . .
HOLMES: It was about, uh, I would say in the late forties
[1940's], maybe early fifties [1950's].
WALLACE: Fifties [1950's]. Henry Sanders told me the same
story. The young lady who was taking the money was so nervous
about . . .
HOLMES: That's right.
WALLACE: . . . the whole thing.
HOLMES: He might have been one of those that went because I
got him and two of his friends whom I knew knew how to swim and
dive off, and they offered them jobs as lifeguards.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: They didn't take it because they had other work.
�
See, this young man came and took our Upward Bound Program.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: We had 105 kids every . . . every summer.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And, then, we'd go around and visit them at the
schools they went to the winter. And they would come up so happy
to see us.
WALLACE: Well, when your husband first established his
practice in Frankfort in '47 [1947], where did he initially open
his office?
HOLMES: Down in the . . . on Washington Street, which is now
in the area that they have reconverted.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: He was down there for a while. And we saw one flood
there. I had to help him get his stuff out. I put on his boots
and my shoes swelled up in the boots and I thought I was going to
have to cut the boots off. [Laughter - Wallace] And, then, when
the lady, Ms. Florence Williams, who lived over there in, uh, I
don't . . . I think she must have died about then. Anyhow, he
bought that house and put his office there.
WALLACE: Umhumm. What were . . . when he first established
himself, uh, what were some of the, uh, concerns or problems he
confronted as a . . . as the . . . possibly the only black
�
physician in town at that time?
HOLMES: Well, there had been one ahead of him. So, they were
not unaccustomed to that.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And he got . . . his practice . . . he was considered
very good. He was always . . . all of his background had been
scientific. When he went to Meharry, he even taught one of the
Meharry courses.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: So, he was actually teaching on the faculty while he
was taking course work?
WALLACE: Taught that one course.
HOLMES: Ahh.
WALLACE: But it helped with the finances, too.
HOLMES: Umhumm. [Laughing]
WALLACE: Well . . .
HOLMES: And, then, he sold, uh, uh, uh, for a laboratory
company. He sold insurance to the doctors at Meharry.
WALLACE: So, he was working and going to school trying to make
. . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . financial ends meet.
HOLMES: Meet. I was trying to keep up the ends over here.
�
WALLACE: That's quite difficult to maintain a relationship
over that distance with your being here and he and having to . .
.
HOLMES: Well, uh, he was busy going to school and I was busy
trying to keep the ends met. [Laughter]
WALLACE: Well, tell me a little bit when you first started
instructing at Kentucky State University. What kind of course
load did you have? What courses were you teaching?
HOLMES: English.
WALLACE: English.
HOLMES: All of them were English.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: I was head of the department when I came.
WALLACE: One of your former students said that, uh, he would
have to stay up into the wee hours of the morning to try and make
his assignments for . . .
HOLMES: They accused me of being kind of rough. [Laughter -
Wallace] But they also learned.
WALLACE: Oh, yes. He said he was glad he had because he . . .
he knew English . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . forward and backwards now . . .
HOLMES: And, see, I told them that they should learn English
�
not because they were going to teach it as I was. I wanted to
teach it. But they should learn it to guide them through life.
I said, to defend yourself. To explain what you're talking
about, you need command of language.
WALLACE: To be articulate.
HOLMES: Yes. In other words, it's one of the personal
attributes of a successful person to handle language.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I still think it is.
WALLACE: Well, when your husband came and established his
practice in '47 [1947], were you and he living up on campus at
that time?
HOLMES: At the . . . when he first came.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Until we got this house, and, then, this house was
auctioned and he bought it for me. I didn't even know he had
bought it.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: He came home and told me, "I've got you a home now."
WALLACE: [Laughing] So, you all lived in South Frankfort all
along and he just had his practice in . . . in North Frankfort
for a while there until he relocated.
HOLMES: Well, about a year, about at least a year, maybe a
�
little bit longer, we lived up there in one of the new apartments
where that last building out on the front is. It used to be
residents' homes . . .
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
HOLMES: . . . and we lived in one of those at that time.
WALLACE: Umhumm, umhumm. Well, let me ask you a few more
questions about your husband's practice, and, then, I'd like to
talk with you a little bit about the NAACP. Were there any
special health problems or concerns that your doctor . . . your
husband would have to confront from the residents? I imagine a
large number of his patients came . . .
HOLMES: He was the school physician when he first came.
WALLACE: Oh, school physician.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: As well. Oh, okay, okay.
HOLMES: But, see, he did not want to confine his practice to
that, and that's why he wanted to move downtown so that the town
would know he was not merely a school physician.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: See, at the beginning of school, he would invite a
lot of his classmates here for several days and they would
examine all of the students . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
�
HOLMES: He was the school physician.
WALLACE: So, they actually got assistance in . . . in . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . helping.
HOLMES: Well, you see, I don't know exactly what they did,
but it was enough for more than one person, see. We used to have
about six come in . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: . . . for a few days in . . . in the opening days of
school in the fall.
WALLACE: Well, even at that time, I imagine the student body
was relatively good size, good number of students.
HOLMES: Yes, it was.
WALLACE: I don't know how many.
HOLMES: I don't remember the amount. I don't keep those
facts in mind.
WALLACE: No. Well, that's rather trivial, but, uh, uh, he was
a general practitioner, wasn't he?
HOLMES: Yes, M.D.
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: General practitioner.
WALLACE: Not . . . not a surgeon?
HOLMES: No, he was not a surgeon.
�
WALLACE: Uh, as far as . . .
HOLMES: He was a good friend of Dr. Ramsey's.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: We used to go to Hypnosis Society together.
WALLACE: Did the back and white physicians interact pretty
much or . . .
HOLMES: As much as they wanted to. There didn't seem to be
any difficulty at all.
WALLACE: As far as hospital facilities and access to hospital
facilities, uh . . .
HOLMES: Well, we had a little hospital over here when he
first came. I don't think he ever practiced in it, though.
WALLACE: Winnie A. Scott [Hospital]?
HOLMES: Winnie Scott, yeah.
WALLACE: Winnie Scott Hospital.
HOLMES: I don't think he ever practiced in there because it
was going out and he sent them all out here.
WALLACE: Out to King's Daughter . . . the old King's Daughters
. . .
HOLMES: Yeah, the old King's Daughters.
WALLACE: . . . which is apartments. So, he actually practiced
over in the King's Daughters then when . . .
HOLMES: Yeah, and, also, out here.
�
WALLACE: Ahh, okay, okay. See, that's so different than what
I thought I would encounter. I didn't realize his tenure did not
overlap with Winnie A. Scott really when . . .
HOLMES: No, no, no.
WALLACE: . . . it was gone.
HOLMES: It had no attachment to Winnie A. Scott. In other
words, the people who wanted to go there, I imagine he sent them.
But most of them, he sent on out here.
WALLACE: Well, that . . .
HOLMES: And he was kind of rigid. When he told you what to
do, you did it and went off. You got yourself another doctor.
WALLACE: Ahh. He had high expectations for his patients as
far as . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . following his . . .
HOLMES: And they did. You talk to most of those patients
now, they . . . see, when it would come for the winter shot, flu
shot . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: . . . he'd say, "Well, I'm going up on the campus
today." And he said, "I've come to give you a flu shot", and he
gave it. They didn't ask, "Do you think I need one?" [Laughter
- Wallace]
�
WALLACE: He just gave it.
HOLMES: He just gave it. He said, "I won't force you today."
And, see, it was close enough that he could go from his office.
WALLACE: Office. Well, he was one of the few black
professionals to reestablish himself after the urban renewal.
So many of the businesses . . .
HOLMES: Well, they already had one here and he was leaving at
the time B.T. finished. So, he just kind of slipped in a vacancy
that was . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: . . . not made for him, but happened.
WALLACE: Do you remember . . . I've heard the name Dr. Berry,
a black physician.
HOLMES: Yeah. Dr. Berry was one of the earlier ones.
WALLACE: Yeah. But he was gone before your husband . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: Okay.
HOLMES: He was gone before my husband came here.
WALLACE: There was a Dr. . . .
HOLMES: Now, that was down near that St. John's AME Church.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Yes.
�
HOLMES: That's my church.
WALLACE: Ahh. I have yet . . . I need to go in there
sometime. I'd like to . . . it's so beautiful from the outside.
It must be equally attractive . . .
HOLMES: It is.
WALLACE: . . . from the inside.
HOLMES: Those windows are beautiful.
WALLACE: Yes, stained glass.
HOLMES: I just made them my parting donation of a thousand
dollars to take care of the pavement which needed repair.
WALLACE: Oh, out in front where the . . .
HOLMES: Yeah. I used to be a trustee down there, and, then,
I was made a steward one year. And I didn't agree with their
asking me to ask the wife of a man, one of Doc's patients who was
dying, to go on a note for us. I told them, no, I would not do
that. I could not . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: . . . put her up to having a note that she would
never get paid for.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: So, he said, "Well, you're off the board." And I
said, "Thank you" and got up and left.
WALLACE: Good grief. Well, they put you in a horrible
�
predicament by asking . . .
HOLMES: Well, see, she lived right down here on the corner of
Fourth Street . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: . . . where Fourth goes into Paul Sawyier.
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: Had a lovely home. Her husband was head waiter at
the hotel here in his good days.
WALLACE: The Southern Hotel when . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . it was quite an establishment.
HOLMES: And he was quite a dignified looking gentleman. He
used to follow the governors when they'd go on trips and they'd
want somebody to go with them.
WALLACE: Ahh. Sort of as a personal attendant and traveling
companion . . .
HOLMES: Yeah. They made all of their meal contacts and that
sort of thing.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, let me ask you about your involvement
here in social organizations and causes and, uh . . . when did
you first become involved with the NAACP movement here in
Frankfort?
HOLMES: Ah, when they started, uh, with the swimming pool and
�
the other things that came up. I was head of the NAACP and we
used to have quite an active group.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: We'd have a dinner once a year and get a cook and
we'd go to . . . not . . . didn't have those dinners at St.
John. We had them at the . . . at the First Baptist Church . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: It's just across from the Governor's house now.
WALLACE: Do we have a large chapter here? Were there quite a
few individual members?
HOLMES: It was . . . you had a large chapter on paper, but
you had to kind of pull them in to what you wanted them to do.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Were there white members as well or just
solely black members?
HOLMES: I would think there were a few white members. I
don't imagine there were very many of them.
WALLACE: Umhumm, umhumm. Well, as far as the swimming pool,
I've heard that there was also a move to integrate the
restaurants and that young blacks and adults . . .
HOLMES: We sat-in many a-time. Only one person ever got
arrested, and I had taken . . . and that was not supposed to be.
That was down at the drug store on the corner across from, uh . .
. oh, how am I going to tell you? Main Street . . .
�
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: You know the little park place?
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: There's one drug store down there still, I think.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Well, that's the one where a young man was arrested.
WALLACE: Not Frankfort Drug, was it?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Okay.
HOLMES: Frankfort Drug. And, uh, we had taken up money . . .
we had the lawyer from Versailles, remember the young white . . .
WALLACE: Oh, Ed Prichard.
HOLMES: Prichard.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: He was my advising lawyer.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: I said, "I don't mind, uh, having to get them out
from being arrested, but I don't them to do foolish things." For
instance, if I . . . I led the first march out to the Capitol.
We had Martin Luther King up on the Capitol steps.
WALLACE: Good grief.
HOLMES: And it poured down rain the day before, so, we
couldn't actually connect the electrical lines, but everything
�
was up. All you had to do was plug them. So, uh, they didn't
close school, but the young fellow who lived over here, his
mother lives over there, he cut school to march beside Martin
Luther King. And we had 10,000 people in that line. We marched
from the bridge up Capital Avenue.
WALLACE: And you organized the march?
HOLMES: Well, I helped with it.
WALLACE: Yeah. How did you all get Martin Luther King to
come? Who issued the invitation to him? Do you remember?
HOLMES: Well, I think I had a pretty good part in that. I
had heard . . . he was an Alpha man. See, Alpha frat.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And he spoke at the last fraternal meeting. And the
president asked me, said, "I'd like to have him here, but I'm
afraid he's going to talk Montgomery." [Alabama, the site of a
major civil rights march] I said, "I don't think so." And when
he came, uh, naturally, all of the police were dressed
[uniformed] and undressed,[plain clothes] [inaudible]. He kept
standing around. And you remember . . . do you . . . did you
know Jack Robb?
WALLACE: Yes, Jack Robb.
HOLMES: Well, Jack Robb and I worked this end, see, and we
had set up places all around in here where people could assemble
�
to get into the march. And we all marched into Second Street and
out Capital, see.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: And a very young boy cut school to march beside
Martin Luther King.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And he was our commencement speaker at the high
school out there one year.
WALLACE: The young man . . . oh, Martin Luther?
HOLMES: Martin Luther King was.
WALLACE: Yeah. I have seen . . . you know Bill Rodgers, the
photographer.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: He has, uh, a couple of photos of Martin Luther King
here in Frankfort. It could be the very occasion that you're .
. .
HOLMES: It could be this. I think he was only here . . . he
was here the time we had the march to speak from the steps, which
he did.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And, then, we had him to dinner . . . the president
had him to dinner up on the campus. And, then, he was here for
our commencement speech in itself. And, uh, people flocked.
�
WALLACE: It sounds like the Frankfort black community just
turned out in force.
HOLMES: Oh, it did. It did.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you. When . . .
HOLMES: I was surprised that they followed me so well when I
was head of it when I was not a local person. You know,
sometimes you kind of stick with your local people.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, it sounds like you were accepted right
into the community, though.
HOLMES: Well, I was. Some of my best friends are right here
now.
WALLACE: Well, when the decision . . . the Supreme Court
decision, Brown versus Board of Education, 1954 . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Do you remember how you reacted or how . . . if you
heard anybody locally discussing their feelings about that
decision as far as the integration of schools?
HOLMES: Well, if I did, I'm sure I got them straight on what
I thought. [Laughter - Wallace] And nobody ever questioned me
about it. And nobody was ever . . . uh, see, I . . . for
instance, I could have gone to that very same drugstore where the
boy was arrested and been served. They would serve me.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
HOLMES: But they wouldn't serve Negroes as a whole.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And I never ate there. And, then, well, we started
eating all around here.
WALLACE: Well, when, uh, Mayo-Underwood, uh, I guess after the
court, Supreme Court ruling, that integrated the school systems
and Mayo-Underwood was abandoned.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: How did the black community react to the loss of an
all-black institution like Mayo-Underwood?
HOLMES: I don't think it worried them too much. See, they
hired the principal at one of the schools.
WALLACE: Was that Alice . . .
HOLMES: Alice Simp . . . Alice Samuels.
WALLACE: Samuels, exactly. Alice Samuels.
HOLMES: And her family lives right down here. I don't think
there was much reaction because we had fought for that.
WALLACE: Umhumm. I wondered if there was any sense of
nostalgia or loss with an all-black institution where the young
folk would have their own black leaders and black activities and
sports . . .
HOLMES: I don't recall anything that was . . . there wasn't
any big display. I know that.
�
WALLACE: Okay.
HOLMES: I think, uh, we just kind of went along with them.
We didn't have a Montgomery busboy's outfit. We had some other
things. I just think they went along with it.
WALLACE: Let me ask you. During urban renewal years, in the
late, oh, '58 [1958], '59 [1959], a number of the black and white
homeowners that were in the area sometimes referred to as Bottom
banded together to resist the urban renewal. And one of the
things they did was collected up money and retained two
attorneys, a man by the name of Julius Knippenberg and J. S.
Carroll, to represent them in an attempt to block the urban
renewal project. Were you involved in that effort at all?
HOLMES: No, I wasn't in that effort at all.
WALLACE: Okay.
HOLMES: In other words, I guess my educational time was
concerned with my attachment to Kentucky State.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: See, I came here in '43 [1943] to head the English
department.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: So, you see, I was pretty well installed by that
time. I retired from up there in '73 [1973].
WALLACE: Ahh. So, you were there 30 years.
�
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: I imagine you saw a lot of transition up there.
HOLMES: I did see a lot of transition. And, see, one . . .
and when Dr. Atwood retired, then, a former friend of my
husband's and mine came to head the school. Now, they didn't
know for the most part that we . . . that we were friends because
when we'd do our private visiting, well, they'd come down here or
I'd go to her house . . . his house and her house. See, he died
. . . she died here.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And he was about to take her to a doctor in Lexington
when she took ill. And she fell over. And I . . . his secretary
was the only with him, and I called and asked, "Do you think he'd
like to see me?" And he cried. He held me . . . he put his head
on my breast and just cried like his heart would break.
WALLACE: Which president was this, now?
HOLMES: President . . . not Atwood, Hill, Carl Hill.
WALLACE: Carl Hill, okay.
HOLMES: Carl Hill was a fine man. See, we had known him . .
. he was down in . . . in Tennessee State when B.T. was there for
Meharry, you see.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: And, uh, I didn't know them as much as Doc did, see.
�
But I fell in line and used to spend many a pleasant hour with
them. See, but you never let your social, uh, affiliations block
the occupational affiliations.
WALLACE: Yes. It could get rather tricky if those get
interrelated.
HOLMES: Yes. See, but most of the people didn't know that we
were that friendly.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: See, when she'd want to see me, she'd come on down
here. When he'd want to see me personally except something
connected with the school, he'd come down here.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, let me ask you, and this is just more
out of curiosity than anything else. I've attended courses at
Kentucky State, several computer courses and enjoyed them very .
. .
HOLMES: Who taught them, do you remember?
WALLACE: The professor has retired. He's an elderly white
gentleman. Oh, he's just delightful. He, uh . . . oh, what was
his name?
HOLMES: I probably wouldn't have met him because that was a
little bit far from my field.
WALLACE: Yeah. And I . . . he didn't . . . I didn't take
those courses until 1982 and 3 [1983].
�
HOLMES: Oh, no.
WALLACE: So, you had retired from . . .
HOLMES: No, I had retired off the campus in '73 [1973].
WALLACE: But I can't understand the source of Kentucky State's
current dilemmas and problems. It seems like for the last three
or four years . . .
HOLMES: Well, I'll say this. They get . . . the State
Journal gets all of the dilemmas, but they don't get any of the
other things. I didn't see an article in the paper about who
spoke for commencement.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Now, that's a logical thing to put in the paper
because it's just news . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: . . . one thing or the other. And we . . . Dr.
Atwood kept a file of people he was going to get for commencement
speakers . . . he asked me did I think Martin Luther King would
make a good commencement speaker. I said, "Yes." He said,
"He'll talk about Montgomery bus boycott." I said, "I don't
think so." And when they had him here, they had him in that high
school over that way, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: In that new auditorium.
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: Not . . . not the high school. And I remember one of
my friends who was a shouting lady, she shouted, and, then, she
apologized. And I said, "Honey, you don't have to apologize to
me." I said, "You felt like shouting and you shouted." So,
that's it and nobody else got hurt. Of course, when she shouted,
why, they thought somebody was trying to shoot King, see.
WALLACE: Oh.
HOLMES: Of course, we had plenty of clothed [uniformed] and
unclothed [plain clothes] policemen around.
[End of Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
WALLACE: Let me ask you a little bit about some of the
educators that . . . that you remember here in our community,
both at Kentucky State and, uh, Mayo-Underwood, perhaps. I don't
know if you interacted with the Mayo-Underwood faculty at all.
HOLMES: Oh, yeah. I knew all of them very well. See, most
of those who were adequately trained went on up to Kentucky
State.
WALLACE: Oh, actually did their undergraduate work at Kentucky
State, and, then, went back and taught at Mayo-Underwood? Is
that what you're . . .
HOLMES: Some of them did that. Did you know a "Plug"
�
Williams?
WALLACE: I wish I . . . I know his wife. I told you I think I
interviewed her, but . . . [sound of knocking at door] I wish I
had met "Plug" Williams. I spoke with his wife . . .
HOLMES: Well, "Plug" taught down there, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah. Didn't he . . . did he ever teach at Kentucky
State? Didn't he . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . go up and coach?
HOLMES: Yes. He was up at Kentucky State.
WALLACE: Well, I read a newspaper article on he and his wife
that appeared in the State Journal and he sounded like a
fascinating individual.
HOLMES: He was a fine individual.
WALLACE: Yes. Military, uh, a major or colonel.
HOLMES: Something, I don't remember what it was now. But he
was . . . he was a fine person.
WALLACE: Well, Alice Simpson.
HOLMES: Yes.
WALLACE: Uh . . .
HOLMES: Alice Samuels.
WALLACE: Samuels, I'm sorry, Samuels.
HOLMES: She was the principal down there.
�
WALLACE: And Bertie Samuels . . .
HOLMES: Bertie is still living.
WALLACE: I called her and she felt a little reluctant to talk.
She said her memory wasn't quite what it once was, and she really
didn't . . . I'm going to send her a copy of my paper when I get
it done and maybe she'll reconsider because I think she would be
very interesting to talk to.
HOLMES: Well, uh, she was never a very active person
civically.
WALLACE: Ahh. Well, uh . . .
HOLMES: And that doesn't reflect on her at all.
WALLACE: Umhumm. [sound of phone ringing]
[Interruption of tape]
WALLACE: Well, when you were teaching up there and started in
'43 [1943], uh, were there white students that attended Kentucky
State?
HOLMES: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: Ahh. There were white students even as early as '43
[1943]?
HOLMES: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And we had some white teachers. One of . . . the
person who shared the office next to me was a white teacher. He
�
always . . . he said I was so pleasant in welcoming him to the
university.
WALLACE: I imagine he felt a little awkward being in a black
institution or basically a black institution, I guess, and being
a white faculty member coming on to campus.
HOLMES: Well, no more awkward probably than it was for me to
go to Bucknell to school and there wasn't a Negro on the campus.
WALLACE: That's true.
HOLMES: And, you see, I walked down . . . walked down to go
class one day and the chemistry lab, they had those wide steps
all across, and somebody yelled out from an upstairs window, "Hi,
nigger." And I knew he wasn't talking to me. So, I just walked
on. [Laughter - Wallace] And a young man came off the campus,
[inaudible], took my books and escorted me to class, and I never
heard another word about it nor any other trouble. See,
sometimes it doesn't pay to try to fight. You just do your . . .
do what you're going to do.
WALLACE: The theory I've heard is that you must consider the
source of the . . . the insult and if that person has no special
meaning to you, then, what they say has no special meaning.
HOLMES: Well, I had never been known . . . see, I graduated
second honor in my high school class. I wasn't ever known to
take second place to anybody except the person that was behind me
�
in academic records. So, it didn't . . . it didn't worry me at
all.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I went on to class and never heard . . . you know, I
don't know whether they found the young man who called it or not,
but I wasn't concerned about that.
WALLACE: Did you encounter evidence of . . . of prejudice here
in Frankfort that you had to confront or to deal with?
HOLMES: Well, there was some things that . . . I had my own
car. So, that took care of that.
WALLACE: Was it unusual for, uh, a young black woman, even a
faculty member, to possess her own automobile and transportation?
HOLMES: No. I paid for it.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I bought all of my cars up there at, uh, Mont- . . .
the, uh, what is that kind of car I have?
WALLACE: It looks like an Oldsmobile.
HOLMES: No, it's not an Oldsmobile.
WALLACE: I can't make it out from here.
HOLMES: It's not a Ford.
WALLACE: Chrysler probably .
HOLMES: No, I can't . . .
WALLACE: Chevrolet?
�
HOLMES: Chevrolet.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: The Chevrolet place was up there on Main Street going
out.
WALLACE: Yes, yes.
HOLMES: It's still out there and I bought many a car out
there and bought them through the bank where when I went in, the
old man who was in . . . he knew me and he said, "Well, you're
just asking for some of your money out." I said, "That's exactly
what I want."
WALLACE: Umhumm. So, you weren't borrowing money for your
purchase, you were paying for your vehicles with money . . .
HOLMES: With a check.
WALLACE: . . . you had saved.
HOLMES: Yes.
WALLACE: Yes. I think you were quite frugal, quite, quite
frugal, excellent . . .
HOLMES: Well, uh, I think Mr. Williams thinks I was, too,
but, uh, I had a family where you had to make things go.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I told you I had that little job stacking books when
I wasn't . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
HOLMES: . . . hadn't finished the eighth grade.
WALLACE: Umhumm, and already working.
HOLMES: Already working. See, but it wasn't . . . and I
expected to work. I wasn't . . . I did get a scholarship. So, I
never saw a bill to go to college.
WALLACE: Oh, you received a scholarship.
HOLMES: Oh, yes. My science teacher, Mr. Mitchell, was my
science teacher in high school biology. He was a Bucknell
graduate.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And he got me the scholarship.
WALLACE: Ahh. So, it was a complete scholarship for all of
your undergraduate training?
HOLMES: I never paid a bill. Oh, I had some things to pay,
but most of the things were paid for.
WALLACE: Well, some of your . . .
HOLMES: I started a class and I got my written work in on
Friday night before I left. I commuted part of the time.
WALLACE: Umhumm, umhumm.
HOLMES: And I had a darling uncle, a policeman, a Negro
policeman, in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. I stood about to here
on him.
WALLACE: Ahh.
�
HOLMES: And when he came down there, all of the things moved.
[Laughter - Wallace] Uncle Charlie. Uncle Charlie Harris.
WALLACE: Well, do you remember J. B. Brown?
HOLMES: Sure.
WALLACE: Principal at Mayo-Underwood.
HOLMES: Yeah, I know him.
WALLACE: See, I just know the names. I don't . . . I really .
. . don't really know anything about the personalities or their
contributions to the community.
HOLMES: Uh, I, uh . . . he was a little bit ahead of me.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Age-wise. And I don't remember his . . . I think he
. . . he was a member of the NAACP because we had practically
100% around here. See, I . . . I . . . my husband and I have
lifetime memberships. You can see our certificates up there.
WALLACE: Ahh, yes. Do we still have a chapter here locally
that's active?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Who's heading it up these days? Do you know?
HOLMES: Now, you've asked me a question I don't know. I see
the announcements about it. They just had a meeting here last
week out at the Greenhill Baptist Church. And you see all of
those . . . I got from my work . . . see, I was on practically
�
every committee in the city except the City Commission.
WALLACE: Well, when you told me you were on the Plant Board,
that absolutely shocked me.
HOLMES: Well, I have a, uh, a compliment when I retired from
them,
WALLACE: What led to your involvement with the Plant Board,
the City's Plant Board?
HOLMES: Well, I was on . . . sat on lots of boards. I've
been on every board down there except the City Commission.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: I was the board that examined firemen and policemen
and rated them. Do you know a man by the name of Rosenstein
[Wolfe W. Rosenstein]?
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: Well, he was the head of it. And I worked with him
on . . . on that board for years.
WALLACE: Umhumm. But you were probably the only African-
American individual involved, I would suspect.
HOLMES: Well, some of Africans were.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: But, see, you were just an African. And we'd get the
blacks on with all of their background so they could be versed
over there when they'd go into that meeting. Then, we'd give
�
them the written part, and, then, we'd vote on it. And I worked
on that . . . Rosenstein wanted to retire. He was tired of it.
I think his wife died.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And he wanted to retire. And I said, "Well, I'm
going to retire soon." I said, "If you and I stay on the same
time, we'll retire together."
WALLACE: It just amazes me the high level of involvement you
have had in the community and the city. How did you find all of
the time to raise a family and to teach . . .
HOLMES: I didn't have any children.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
HOLMES: That's the point. I . . . and I saw the physician.
He said, "You just don't stay still long enough." [Laughter -
Wallace] And you could see, I worked 20 years with scouts.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: When I took the Girl Scout work, they had two troops.
When I finished, they had 12.
WALLACE: In our community here?
HOLMES: Yes, in the . . . in the Negro troops. You had 12
Negro troops.
WALLACE: That you assisted in starting.
HOLMES: Yes.
�
WALLACE: Are these Boy and Girl Scout troops?
HOLMES: They were Girl Scouts.
WALLACE: Oh, Girl Scouts.
HOLMES: We had somebody else that worked with Boy Scouts.
But I worked with Girl Scouts. And I worked . . . I worked with
the Red Cross down here.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: I was on that board. And . . . and I said . . . I
was on the Frankfort Electric and Water Plant Board. See, Dr. .
. . Mr., uh, Sower, Sr. started putting me on boards.
WALLACE: Frank?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Frank Sower.
HOLMES: No. That's . . .
WALLACE: Oh, his father.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: His father, then.
HOLMES: The one who was the mayor first.
WALLACE: Yes, I believe it . . . I'll have to check on that.
Frank Sower was mayor before his son, John.
HOLMES: Yeah, John is the . . . well, I . . .
WALLACE: Did you . . .
HOLMES: . . . worked under both of them.
�
WALLACE: Ahh, I see.
HOLMES: Yeah. And, see, now, Ms. Sower was my lawyer until
she had this last child and she said she just couldn't handle it.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: It was her third child.
WALLACE: Yes. I would think that would . . . well, let me ask
you. As a leader in the education community and civically and
socially, uh, how did you react when the urban renewal project
was announced? Were you supportive of it or in opposition to it
or did you . . .
HOLMES: I was supportive of it as long as we'd all go over
together.
WALLACE: What do you mean by that? I'm not exactly sure what
you mean.
HOLMES: What I meant was if . . . if the . . . if the . . .
if the effort was going to be a black and white effort, fine.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I'd go along with it because that . . . that area
needed cleaning out. Doc's first office was down there on the
corner of Washington Street.
WALLACE: You say the area needed cleaning out. Was it a slum?
Was it . . .
HOLMES: No, it wasn't a slum. It was just a poor area.
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And there wasn't much else for you to go to.
WALLACE: That's what I've heard. There were very few options
for people with low or moderate incomes as far as housing. They
almost had to live . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . down there. There was just no other place to
reside.
HOLMES: Well, as I said, we . . . we got this house and a
flood chased . . . I went down and put on his boots and got all
of the stuff out of the office and brought it in here for the
last flood. And, then, we managed to get this house over here
and that's how the office happened to be over here.
WALLACE: Umhumm. But as far as going down into that area of
Frankfort to take a meal, say, at the Tiger Inn or . . . or at
"Shineboy's" or something like that, did you all patronize any of
the businesses over there?
HOLMES: I don't think we did very much, no.
WALLACE: I've heard that during commencement when the former
Kentucky State University students and alumni would come back
into town that it was quite an occasion, that three or four days.
HOLMES: It was quite an occasion because everybody served. I
have had this house . . . I have had one party on a Friday night
�
and, then, another one on a Saturday night and maybe a third one
a Monday night. My husband was an Alpha Phi Alpha life member.
I was a Delta Sigma Theta. That's our fraternities and
sororities. And we were life members of the NAACP, both of us.
They're [membership certificates] up there on the wall.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: And, uh, you didn't think of going out. You
entertained in your home.
WALLACE: That was quite a . . .
HOLMES: And I had . . . I used to fill both of these rooms.
I'd have card parties, have parties for my club. And, then, when
my father was here, I'd put him up one and have his friends in
the dining room. So that we made our own social life.
WALLACE: Life, apart from having to go out and . . . and to
entertain. I guess it just really wasn't the thing to do, to go
out. Like, today, everyone seems to go out to restaurants all
the time.
HOLMES: Yeah. Well, we did very little of that because, see,
you know, that last building they built up on the college campus,
they had that apartments for a while.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: I don't know whether you know Mr. Wright, R. Wood
Wright?
�
WALLACE: No, I don't believe I . . .
HOLMES: He was fair as you are, but he was black.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And he was opposite me, and we'd entertain the Alphas
together.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And we'd have the meeting in one of our apartments
and we'd serve them in the other.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And we got along beautifully like that.
WALLACE: Well, given the fact you've been so active, were you
ever involved in politics at all? Did you participate either as
a leader in . . . or a supporter of any particular political
candidates or work in . . .
HOLMES: Oh, sometimes indirectly, but that was . . . I was
too busy working with my Girl Scouts, Upward Bound group. See, I
worked in the Upward Bound Program.
WALLACE: When did you get involved with Upward Bound?
HOLMES: I was in it when they started it.
WALLACE: When did they start it? I guess that's the
question.
HOLMES: Now, I can't remember exactly. Dr. Alexander started
it. And, uh, we would have a hundred and some kids.
�
WALLACE: What kind of programs did you offer the children?
What . . .
HOLMES: We offered them English classes. We had a woman from
a high school out here teaching Spanish. I've forgotten her name
. . . Johnson.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: She taught them Spanish. And we had others teaching
other courses. They got paid $10 a week. Some of those kids
hadn't seen a ten dollar bill in their lives.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And we took them on the first trip. I took them to
the public library in Louisville in groups, see. A . . . A . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: A grown person would chaperone a small group. Maybe
you'd have about 12 or 15 and that was your group. And we took
them to Louisville there to eat. They had never eaten in a big
place like that.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And I said, "Now, you get a meat. You get vegetables,
two vegetables. You get a salad. You get your bread and you get
a desert."
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And they'd go down there . . . I remember one boy
�
said, "Ms. Holmes, I got to do this, but I want that strawberry
shortcake." I said, "Well, you'll have some money left." We
appropriated each so much for his meal.
WALLACE: Meal.
HOLMES: I said, "Now, if you . . . you . . . if you get it,
you eat it."
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And, then, you ate with your group, see. When . . .
when your group was served, you went on with your group and took
. . . I always had Uncle Charlie to reserve a table for me down
through the war. And that to them. Then, we went over to
Shakertown and we went to . . . department store, all of those
things every weekend. Took them to baseball games.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: The only person that got lost in . . . you'd have
five buses. The only person that got lost was one of the adults.
[Laughter - Wallace] I'd tell them, I'd say, "When you get off
of your bus, take the number of your bus."
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And I'd say, "Now . . . and don't get on any other."
And, then, I'd go along and read the roll . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: . . . because I knew I had those kids to report home.
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: It was a bit of responsibility, but it was a lot of
fun.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: See, those kids . . . for instance, we had one girl
who was so bad, she'd cuss out every teacher she had. And Al
was . . . Al was the head of it at that time, after Dr. Alexander
and I set it up. Dr. Alexander was head of the science
department and he wanted to return to his department
academically.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: So, he asked me, "Do you know anybody who would be
interested?" I said, "Well, I'll find somebody." So, Al had
just received his master's from Western. This young man . . .
WALLACE: Yes, yes.
HOLMES: He'd just received his master's, and, then, I had a
black woman who was forceful over in Lexington. I put her name
second. And, then, a black man from the Physical Ed Department
of the college. And I put those down in that order. So, Dr.
Alexander [said], "Which one do you recommend?" I said, "I
recommend them in the order that I have them on that . . ."
WALLACE: So, Mr. Williams took the program over then?
HOLMES: Yeah. And every week we'd take them some place.
�
And, of course, those kids who hadn't been anywhere, hasn't been
able to eat anywhere, it's kind . . . it's kind of eye revealing.
WALLACE: Well, it's interesting. You told me that one of the
girls thought that they were obligated to do the dishes after . .
.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . they ate.
HOLMES: "Do we do the dishes here?" I said, "No, you just .
. ." well, she'd never been to a place like that. How was she to
know?
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And she . . . and, then, I looked at her, I said,
"Now, you fold your napkin and you put your silver across [the
plate]". And she'd whisper to the next one. And we'd send the
word around to the tables.
WALLACE: All of the children would be watching to see what
they were supposed to do?
HOLMES: And, you know, they come back now to find me.
WALLACE: Ahh. Oh, that's quite a testimony when they come
back and you see . . .
HOLMES: I have a young man who comes back every semester and
he was my chief dramatics counselor. I coached dramatics here.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
HOLMES: And, uh, he'll come . . . he'll come two and three
times, always twice, sometimes three times and spend hours just
talking about old times.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: He's retired from his principalship now.
WALLACE: So, it's amazing how much of a difference that can
make in a young person's life to have . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . that kind of attention and concern. Let me ask
you some of the black businesses . . . am I taking too long . . .
HOLMES: I have nothing I have to do.
WALLACE: Okay. Well, I just want to be sure that I'm not . .
.
HOLMES: I'm free for the afternoon because I have a young
lady . . . not a young lady, she's a woman who helps me out in
the mornings on Thursday and she leaves at twelve o'clock.
WALLACE: Well, I've . . . when I started the project, I was
very interested in the Bottom area and I . . . I took a list of
names of businesses and you may not have any knowledge of any of
these, so . . . but, if you do, stop me and . . . and maybe you
could recount your experiences. The Tiger Inn, Mr. Ewen Atkins'
restaurant.
HOLMES: Yes. I used to go to the races and . . . and bet
�
along with him. Sometimes I'd be lucky and he wouldn't be.
[Laughter - Wallace] Ewen Atkins. And this young man, his father
worked down there, too.
WALLACE: Oh, the . . .
HOLMES: Now, his father is the Mr. Williams who lives down
here on Second Street, where Second goes into Paul Sawyier. He
used to be head waiter at the . . . where the Senior Citizens
used to be.
WALLACE: What is . . .
HOLMES: Southern Hotel.
WALLACE: What is his father's first name?
HOLMES: William, I think.
WALLACE: William Williams.
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Okay. Maybe I should talk to him at some point if
he's . . .
HOLMES: Now, I'm not sure his last name is Williams though.
WALLACE: Oh.
HOLMES: It must be, though. Yeah, it is.
WALLACE: So that . . . so, you had been in the Tiger Inn and .
. .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . socialized with . . .
�
HOLMES: Ewen Atkins and I used to go to the Derby and he'd
bet with his scheming and I'd bet with just my . . . just I think
he's going to win. [Laughter - Wallace] I wasn't as lucky as
he, but I didn't know anything about betting.
WALLACE: Nobody has ever described, uh, Mr. Atkins to me. The
only thing I've ever heard that he was, uh, hunchback. Is that
correct?
HOLMES: Yeah. He was a little hunchback.
WALLACE: A little hunchback.
HOLMES: And a very . . . he had a very unique, clean, orderly
restaurant.
WALLACE: Well, people speak very highly of the Tiger Inn.
HOLMES: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: Very highly.
HOLMES: Uh, that was across from where the doctor's first
office was.
WALLACE: Umhumm. I imagine he had been in there many a time
to grab a bite or something.
HOLMES: Well, he came home most of the time.
WALLACE: Oh, for lunch? He would come home?
HOLMES: He would . . . he was a homer.
WALLACE: Ahh. [Laughing]
HOLMES: For which I'm happy since he had to leave me early.
�
WALLACE: Robb's Funeral Home. Do you remember Robb's, Jack
Robb's dad?
HOLMES: Do I?
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: I should say I do. Jack . . . Jack and I were really
close. We were closer together . . . in the first march when we
had Martin Luther King over here on the steps . . .
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: When we were getting ready for that, we mapped out
certain homes that we'd have, rest homes for people who were
waiting. And they were waiting on these . . . in these homes all
around here. And when they poured down out there into the
bridge, it was tremendous the crowd that was there. And the city
said they never had had such a crowd so orderly.
WALLACE: And, so, Jack was quite involved civically and
HOLMES: Oh, yes, Jack was very involved.
WALLACE: Well, he was an entertainer in his own right, wasn't
he?
HOLMES: That's right, a very fine pianist.
WALLACE: I'd like to try . . . his daughter, Portia, I believe
is in Louisville.
HOLMES: Yes, that's right.
WALLACE: And I hope to find her and talk with her. Jack was .
�
. . my interest in Jack first started when I found out he became
involved in the urban renewal program in 1965.
HOLMES: Yes, he did.
WALLACE: And I think one of the reasons he became involved is
he was so well liked and trusted by the members of the Bottom.
HOLMES: He was trusted by his black friends. He never sold
out to anybody. Jack was a dependable person. Jack would come
here, ring the doorbell . . . and, see, there was a time when I
was more active I didn't keep my door locked.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I opened it so that you could get in with . . . see,
when I sit here alone, I don't keep it unlocked because, after
all, there's some other kinds of people around here now.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: And they don't all know me.
WALLACE: Umhumm. It's unfortunate . . .
HOLMES: And I'm not . . . I'm not going to hurt anybody, but
I'm not going to let them hurt me if I can help it.
WALLACE: You're . . . I think you're very wise. I've heard
that the neighborhood has changed a little bit than what it used
to be.
HOLMES: Well, this is fairly good yet, but, now, there's
nobody living over there. And, uh, when in my . . . in my good
�
days, I used to do all of the hedge. See, the man next door, Mr.
Wilson, J. B. Wilson, worked at, uh, a place down where part of
the catholic church territory is now.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: He had a hardware business.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: I've forgotten the name of it now. Well, uh, Jack
used to come out and he'd come and rap on the door. And he never
wanted you to think . . . see, he had some people that went over.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: As you may know. You know what I mean by going over?
WALLACE: No, I'm not really sure I do.
HOLMES: Suetta [Robb] is white and Sadie [Robb] is white.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And they came here to visit their mother only maybe
overnight.
WALLACE: Because they didn't want to be associated with their
real . . .
HOLMES: Well, they're to "go over" and they went. I can't
blame them because in those days, it wasn't changing like it is
now.
WALLACE: So . . .
HOLMES: And, see, I had never known it in my hometown. John
�
Fairfax was quite a character.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And Isabella who was my mother and father.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: That's my mother's mother right there. Now, she's
the youngest sister of Bishop Tanner whose son was Henry O.
Tanner, the painter.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay, okay.
HOLMES: So, you see, we have some background . . .
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: . . . that was prominent.
WALLACE: Quite a bit.
HOLMES: And we're not going to . . . well, she had her last
party when she was 96 years old. And people from all the way
around Philadelphia, Pennsylvania came in between trains and
planes just to see her.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Quite an occasion. Well, you say Jack never
went over, though. I mean . . .
HOLMES: No.
WALLACE: . . . he never did . . .
HOLMES: Jack hated you to even think he would think of it.
And I . . . I used to find it difficult to pick out Portia when I
first came here, his wife. I mean, his wife. Her real name
�
wasn't Portia. What was it?
WALLACE: Uh . . .
HOLMES: I've forgotten.
WALLACE: I don't remember.
HOLMES: I don't remember. It will come to me in a minute.
But she used to see me, "Helen, do you know me? Do you know who
I am?" [Laughter - Wallace] It was a sort of joke with us, you
know.
WALLACE: Un-huh. Well, some of the other besides the Tiger
Inn, Corinthian Baptist Church.
HOLMES: Oh, yes. Now, the new Corinthian is the one down
here.
WALLACE: Murray and Second Street.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: But the old Corinthian was quite a church, too,
wasn't it?
HOLMES: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: Beautiful, beautiful church. One of the things that
interests me is that . . . at least I suspect this is correct.
You . . . you can correct me if I'm wrong. But the black women
that I have spoken with, and it's been five or six now, were very
involved in leadership roles in the church. They might be
ushers. They might be . . .
�
HOLMES: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . in charge of committees, which I don't see the
white women as involved in their churches even today. I go to
Memorial Baptist and the white women do not assume roles of
leadership in the church, other than maybe Sunday School perhaps.
But . . .
HOLMES: Well, one of the ushers lives over there, Arnice
Williams.
WALLACE: It seems like to me that the role of women in the
black churches, it's much more . . .
HOLMES: You had a smaller group to pick from, too.
WALLACE: . . . important. Umhumm. What kind of roles did you
play in your church at St. John's AME? You said you were on the
trustee?
HOLMES: I was on the trustee board. I was on the steward
board for about one season, and the man fired me and I thanked
him. [Laughter - Wallace] But I was a constant goer. I didn't
have many official roles because they were pretty well . . . now,
the Surratts, have you talked to them?
WALLACE: No, I have not.
HOLMES: Now, he can tell you more about that. Archie Surratt
up on the campus.
WALLACE: Okay. Archie Surratt, all right.
�
HOLMES: And his wife. She's still alive.
WALLACE: Really I think you're the first person I've talked to
who was not a resident of the Bottom area. I've concentrated
mostly on resi- . . . I've talked to people like Isaac Fields and
James T. Graham and . . .
HOLMES: They're good people. They . . . .
WALLACE: Ellsworth Marshall . . . Ellsworth Marshall, Jr.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: And, oh, who else, some of the white community; R. T.
Brooks, Jo Beauchamp, Goebel McCoy, mostly folk who came up the
hard way, I guess, and worked themselves into . . .
HOLMES: There was quite, uh . . . Ewen had the . . . had the
nicest restaurant from . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: . . . my point of view. And there was a nice grocery
store across the street from the office.
WALLACE: What . . . do you remember whose grocery that was,
what the name . . .
HOLMES: I'm trying to remember what the name was. I can't
remember it.
WALLACE: Let me see here. That wouldn't have been "Frog"
Wood's [Huston K. Woods] Grocery or . . .
HOLMES: Could have been.
�
WALLACE: There were so many of those small neighborhood
groceries.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: It's hard to keep them all straight.
HOLMES: And, see, I'm not a small grocery store shopper
usually. I shop on weekends. Kroger's is my main shopping area.
The man who is in the charge of the fruit stand up there, he
remembers me because I've been dealing with . . . and I taught
him.
WALLACE: Ahh. [Laughing]
HOLMES: But I haven't been able to go out and do much . . .
see, that was with my . . . Mr. Williams is doing my groceries
for me today.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And he was one of my students.
WALLACE: Ahh. Well, let me ask you. Do you remember, uh, a
restaurant run by an African-American called "Shineboy"?
HOLMES: I remember the name. I don't have much of a picture
of it one way or the other though.
WALLACE: There was a . . . a sort of a night spot that was
popular with blacks, the 99 Club.
HOLMES: Yeah, and they had a . . . they had a big three-story
place down there, somebody had.
�
WALLACE: Oh, the American Legion building?
HOLMES: The American Legion, I think it was.
WALLACE: Oh, yes, quite a beautiful building, quite a . . .
HOLMES: This young man is in charge of the, uh, American
Legion over here now.
WALLACE: Oh, the fellow that I met when I came in today?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay. I wish I'd known. I should have grabbed
him. Do you remember . . . here are some names of, uh, black
barbers. Fred Allen.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Charles William Chiles, a man sometimes . . .
HOLMES: That name doesn't ring too much of a bell.
WALLACE: "Corn Pudding" is the name that, uh, a nickname that
he used to have. Bob Martin or John Davis. Elizabeth Oglesby
had a . . .
HOLMES: Well, now, Oglesby was my barber.
WALLACE: Elizabeth.
HOLMES: I used to wear bobbed hair, cut the man's style.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And she was the first licensed beautician, woman
beautician in Frankfort, black.
WALLACE: Ahh. I tried . . . I've called her, but she's had a
�
tragedy in her family.
HOLMES: She has. She lost a daughter and . . . well, just
recently.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: In the last two or three weeks. And, then, the
daughter had . . . had a daughter who was getting married. It
was planned all ahead and all of this came at one time.
WALLACE: Time. She had agreed to talk with me and she was
going to get me hooked up with Dorothy Wilson and we were going
to . . .
HOLMES: Well, she lives on the end of . . . she lives over on
Second Street next to the church.
WALLACE: And, then, all of his horrible situation . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . occurred until . . .
HOLMES: It wasn't . . . it wasn't a time to meet anybody.
WALLACE: No, it's not. It's still not the time really. Uh,
so . . .
HOLMES: I hear that there is a possibility that her mother,
the mother of the woman who died, will not . . . she was going to
Florida to live with somebody else.
WALLACE: Oh.
HOLMES: But I think they have convinced her that maybe when
�
you're as old as I am, you don't seek a new place to live.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: See, if I had to go now to, say, Dakota someplace,
I'd feel very much more alone than I do here.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, here, you're surrounded by some
familiar places and faces and friends and former students.
HOLMES: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: Well, so, Ms. Oglesby would do your hair. It sound
like you had rather a venturesome haircut, to have a man's bob .
. .
HOLMES: I did have a manish bob.
WALLACE: That was probably . . . you were one of the first . .
.
HOLMES: And I wore it tossed up on the side of my head like
that, see. One of . . . the lady that works here, she said,
"Well," [inaudible]. She said she liked the way I wore my hair
[laughter - Wallace] because I had been wearing it that way.
WALLACE: Well, Ms. . . .
HOLMES: I had hair down my back one time, and I saw it was
too much trouble putting it up.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: So, I bobbed it and let it go.
WALLACE: Where was Ms. Oglesby's beautician shop? Wasn't that
�
on . . .
HOLMES: It was down there . . . on the same street as the
back street to the old Capitol.
WALLACE: Yes, okay.
HOLMES: Umhumm. That's where it was.
WALLACE: Was that sort of a rough area of town, a violent
area, would you say?
HOLMES: I wouldn't say it was very violent. It wasn't that .
. . it wasn't very wealthy.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: But she had a nice place.
WALLACE: Black and white clientele?
HOLMES: No, just black.
WALLACE: Black. Yeah. I hope once things settle down, I'd
love to talk to her. She sounded like a delightful woman on the
phone.
HOLMES: She is. I think she will be, and, uh, I can . . .
Dorothy . . . Dorothy Wilson is who you mentioned.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: She lives around here and I could find out what she's
doing and kind of give you a cue on her.
WALLACE: I would appreciate that. I would appreciate that
because I hate . . . I don't want to impose on people and . . .
�
HOLMES: Well, I wondered why you wanted to interview me.
WALLACE: Because of your leadership role in the community.
Most of the . . .
HOLMES: I didn't know you knew anything about it.
WALLACE: Well, a few people have mentioned your name to me, a
few. And were very favor . . . I'll tell you one story that's
told on you and it's a nice story. It's after a meeting, and I
think this was an NAACP meeting, the meeting adjourned and . . .
and the folk came to your house sort of to relax. And you said,
"Now, you men, you loosen your ties and you take off your coats
and you gals, I know you're all bound up in those girdles and
things. You just go ahead and loosen that up." And, uh, this
fellow that told me the story just laughed and laughed. He said
that was indicative of the kind of . . . of warmth and open
personality that you had. And that . . . I thought that was a
cute story.
HOLMES: I used to have a lot of entertaining to do, too.
See, I had my two frats. My husband was a Mason. I was not.
And, then, there was the Woman's Progressive Club, there was the
Chairman's Club, the [inaudible] and by the time they'd get
around to you once a year, you'd know it.
WALLACE: Yeah. Be very busy. Do you remember a man by the
name of Earl Tracy?
�
HOLMES: Sure, sure. His wife is a . . . is a club member of
mine.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: We outbid him in getting this house. [Laughter -
Wallace]
WALLACE: I didn't know that. His wife is still living?
HOLMES: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: What is her name now?
HOLMES: Uh, Julia.
WALLACE: Julia Tracy.
HOLMES: Julia Tracy. And she lives up, uh, on the college
campus.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
HOLMES: When you go in that . . . up the . . . as you turn
off to the athletic field, you don't make that turn, you keep on
going right.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And when you get to the houses, there was the Bakers,
the first house, and, then, Tracys.
WALLACE: Ahh, all right.
HOLMES: And, then, you have another street, and, then,
another big house there. It's on the corner.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Is that the same subdivision when you go
�
back in there, uh, George Simmons and . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . Dr. Cheaney and, uh, . . .
HOLMES: Yeah. Cheaney. They live almost . . . directly
across from Cheaney.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
HOLMES: Now, Cheaney is a real character. He was graduate of
Kentucky State, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: He was one of the two who, uh, did all of their work
here, and, then, went ahead from there. And Clara Smith's
husband, have you heard anything about her?
WALLACE: No, no.
HOLMES: Now, Clara . . .
[End of Tape #1, Side #2]
[Begin Tape #2, Side #1]
WALLACE: . . . trying to remember and the associations. Uh,
the reason I got Earl Tracy's name is, of course, his nephew, uh,
Henry . . . the twins, Henry and Bob, uh, Sanders, I believe,
drove taxis for their uncle. That was one of the their . . .
HOLMES: I didn't know they were related. Now, you've told me
something.
WALLACE: Ahh. Well, I believe so. I believe that was . . .
�
HOLMES: Well, that could be.
WALLACE: Because, uh, at that time . . .
HOLMES: Because we bought this house, it was built . . . Mr.
Hall lived down there, a Negro built this house and the house
next to us.
WALLACE: Oh, so, a black craftsman built the house?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: A carpenter.
HOLMES: Did a darn good job, too.
WALLACE: Yeah. It's a beautiful home.
HOLMES: Now, I have a dining room back there and a bath and
a pantry. And upstairs I have three bedrooms and a den and a
bath. So, it's not a small house.
WALLACE: I have some other names of people that you might have
remembrances of. Dr. Underwood.
HOLMES: Oh, yes. I didn't know him. He . . . he was a
doctor who was here and died before B.T. came.
WALLACE: Oh, I see, passed away before your husband . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . established his practice. Will Castleman
[William S. Castleman].
HOLMES: That name rings a bell, but I can't associate
anything with it. Was he white or black?
�
WALLACE: He was a black man who was somewhat of a political
leader in the . . .
HOLMES: Oh, wait a minute. Go ahead.
WALLACE: He, uh, he worked at a number of businesses in the,
uh, the old Bottom area and, uh, was quite adept at turning out
the black vote.
HOLMES: Well, I can imagine he would be.
WALLACE: I think I have a picture of him here. A big tall man
with a deep voice.
HOLMES: Castleman?
WALLACE: Castleman.
HOLMES: Did you know Lyman Johnson? He was from Louisville?
WALLACE: Well, he was a politician, wasn't he?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: In the Kentucky General Assembly.
HOLMES: See that picture there?
WALLACE: Ahh, yes, yes. Now, is he still involved in
politics? I don't . . .
HOLMES: I don't know. I haven't heard anything about him for
sometime.
WALLACE: I don't think he is.
HOLMES: I don't think he is now, not after, because this was
. . . see, this was published in '78 [1978].
�
WALLACE: Oh, that's quite a while, quite a while.
HOLMES: So, you see, that's a little bit old.
WALLACE: Well . . .
HOLMES: Do you have anything about Alvin Fields?
WALLACE: No, I don't.
HOLMES: Or Lyman Johnson who was the one that they fought to
get in UK?
WALLACE: No, I had not, uh . . .
HOLMES: Here it is now.
WALLACE: You've got a picture of him.
HOLMES: The one over here. See, Lyman Johnson. He was a
test case we had sending a Negro to UK.
WALLACE: Seek to desegregate the University of Kentucky. So,
he would have been the first African-American to attend the
University of Kentucky?
HOLMES: I should imagine.
WALLACE: 1949.
HOLMES: And I have a friend now who heads the nursing
department over there that, uh, uh, up on the campus. You don't
know him, do you?
WALLACE: No, no. I . . . I attend at night and I only take
one course a semester and I deal with the history faculty. So,
I'm pretty limited.
�
HOLMES: Who is in history now?
WALLACE: Well . . .
HOLMES: That was Cheaney's department.
WALLACE: Yes. There's a young woman . . . there's really only
one or two members. I can't think of her name. I'm more
acquainted with the University of Kentucky history faculty than
the Kentucky State. I can't think of this woman's name who . . .
HOLMES: Go ahead. You were asking me something
WALLACE: John Buckner. Do you remember . . .
HOLMES: Oh, John Buckner was a good friend of ours.
WALLACE: Oh, really?
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: What are your remembrances of Mr. Buckner?
HOLMES: Mr. Buckner was a fine man who when he liked you,
he'd give you his heart. That carved chair, when we moved in
here, that's a hand-carved chair. Now, I don't know where he got
it. You know, he lived with . . . he worked for the Berrys.
WALLACE: Yes, I've heard that.
HOLMES: So, you see that. And they were really fond of us.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And if you ever said you liked anything in the house,
it would be in your house before long.
WALLACE: Oh.
�
HOLMES: So, I learned not to openly admire things because she
would have given me the tablecloth on the table . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: . . . if I'd said I liked it.
WALLACE: Well, Mr. Buckner was a very successful individual.
HOLMES: Very successful person. His [people] have a home
over there on Second Street.
WALLACE: Are any of his people still alive or have they all
gone on?
HOLMES: Not . . . I don't know who the Buckners were. But
his wife . . . his wife had a sister in Chicago.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And there's a . . . there's a relative who lives in
that little house next to where the Buckner lived. Did you know
where the Buckners lived?
WALLACE: No, no, I did not, no.
HOLMES: Well, uh, here's a church up at the corner.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: Then Dorothy Wilson and there's another house, and
the one . . . Ms. . . . or the next one. The organist from First
Baptist Church lives in the next house and, then, the Buckners.
It's the house with the little hedge around it. I'll find it for
you in the telephone book.
�
WALLACE: So, Ms. Wilson lives right adjacent to the church,
then? Her home . . .
HOLMES: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . is adjacent to the church ground?
HOLMES: Adjacent to the church ground.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: On Second Street side.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: And she's a native here, too.
WALLACE: There was an individual by the name of Thomas "Black
Cat" Graham, the husband of Anne Graham. Anne was quite a
seamstress.
HOLMES: She still is. Some of her people still are. Did you
know the Reverend Hodge in Louisville that was, uh, . . .
WALLACE: No, no. I don't believe I . . . see, I grew up in
the days before, uh, the school . . .
HOLMES: Before it broke up.
WALLACE: Yeah. I graduated in 1975 from Marion C. Moore High
School in Jefferson.
HOLMES: Oh, that's . . . that's like . . . you're actually
youngest compared to when I graduated. [Laughter]
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: I finished high school in 1920, finished college in
�
'24, [1924] Bucknell.
WALLACE: Yes. Well, I . . .
HOLMES: And you don't think it's fitting that I . . . I went
to school when I got the money. Do you know when I finished high
school, people gave me over $300 in cash to go to college?
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: I had taught . . . I sold Pure's stain remover and
was [inaudible] toilet products. After I'd come in from school,
I'd go out in the evenings and sell those things; and if I didn't
have . . . cleared enough to catch my commuter ticket, Uncle
Charlie would refinance me. Uncle Charlie was a very tall,
handsome guy.
WALLACE: The policeman.
HOLMES: The policeman.
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: And was a typical policeman. He was a very integral
policeman. He hunted and always got his quota of deer and bear.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: He was an outdoor person.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: He was my mother's . . .
WALLACE: So, you would come home from school and sell products
door to door.
�
HOLMES: Yeah. How are you going to get money otherwise? You
didn't hold people up.
WALLACE: Do you remember "Tubba" Marshall?
HOLMES: Sure.
WALLACE: He was quite a leader, I would say.
HOLMES: Yes, he was.
WALLACE: Didn't he run for elective office in Frankfort?
HOLMES: I think they all ran for the City Commissioner.
WALLACE: Commission. No black has ever won.
HOLMES: They never won.
WALLACE: And I cannot understand.
HOLMES: There's a young man up here running now, Graham. I
have a ticket for you. I'll give you one.
WALLACE: All right.
HOLMES: But, see, they think . . . now, "Buddy" Ellis used to
work at that grocery store there, Noonan's Grocery.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: And he thought everybody was going to vote for him
because they all knew him because he worked there. But they
didn't.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: See, voting for you, and, then, recognizing you when
you work at one of our stores are two entirely different things.
�
WALLACE: Things. Well, and George Simmons ran and he, uh, was
unsuccessful.
HOLMES: John Buckner ran.
WALLACE: John Buckner, "Tubba" Marshall. It . . . I don't
know. It says something to me that so many capable blacks have
run but, yet, cannot seem to get elected.
HOLMES: Well, I don't think they . . . well, a lot of the
Negroes here now don't know them like I know them.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Yeah. I've been here since '43 [1943].
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And because of my husband's practice, I learned a lot
about them, too.
WALLACE: Do you remember an elderly African-American gentleman
nick . . . nickname was "Squeezer". "Squeezer" Brown.
HOLMES: Yeah, "Squeezer" Brown, sure do.
WALLACE: He was . . . he was beloved, many happy . . .
HOLMES: Everybody . . . everybody liked him.
WALLACE: He would, uh, sing, had a guitar, and I've heard that
he often treated neighborhood children to soft drinks and candy
and . . .
HOLMES: Yeah. We had some . . . we had some nice people.
Who was that first person on this list . . .
�
WALLACE: Oh. Let's see, I had the name. Oh, Will Castleman
[William S. Castleman].
HOLMES: I don't know whether he's in there or not.
WALLACE: I sort of doubt it.
HOLMES: Do you remember when we had two Negroes in the
Legislature?
WALLACE: Oh, we had an African-American woman.
HOLMES: Two women. One was in the Senate and one was in the
House.
WALLACE: Georgia Powers.
HOLMES: Georgia Powers and Mae Street Kidd.
WALLACE: I remember Georgia Powers.
HOLMES: Do you have that in there?
WALLACE: She was very prominent for quite a while, quite a
while.
HOLMES: Oh, yeah. I don't know whether she's still alive or
not.
WALLACE: She's no longer serving in the Senate. I know that.
HOLMES: Oh, no. She hasn't been up here for sometime.
WALLACE: And Mae Street Kidd, I really did not know.
HOLMES: They all favored Jack when they came in.
WALLACE: Oh, really?
HOLMES: Umhumm. Well, Jack was a sort of, uh, everybody knew
�
Jack.
WALLACE: Do you remember Maggie Knott, Maggie and Bob Knott?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: I went and talked to Maggie. They . . . they had run
or managed several businesses in the North Frankfort area. She
was quite nice. I enjoyed talking with her.
HOLMES: She was . . . I don't . . . I didn't know her too
well. I knew . . . I knew her well enough . . . you know, quite
well, but, I mean, we were not close friends.
WALLACE: Let's see. That's about . . . the Reverend W. R.
Hutchison. I believe he was at First . . . the black First
Baptist Church in the late fifties [1950's].
HOLMES: Yeah, is where this man is at.
WALLACE: Yes. I had quite a wonderful time talking to Ms.
Berry. Good grief. Mary . . . Mary Emma, Emma Mary [Mary Helen
Berry]? Lives at the corner of Hoge and Holmes Street. You . .
. you possibly might know her.
HOLMES: I think I know of the people. She's not a close
friend of mine.
WALLACE: Right.
HOLMES: But, uh, she's old . . . well, she's . . . she's
quite elderly.
WALLACE: Yes. Oh, she's . . .
�
HOLMES: Because I think she's older than I am.
WALLACE: Yes, I believe she is. And we talked, uh, . . . used
to be one of the things in the first . . . I don't know if is . .
. was true of St. John's AME, but in her church, First Baptist,
on Sundays, they would have anthems. They'd sing anthems. And
she said the whites would come . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . and it was quite, uh, a place where, I guess,
you could interact, socially interact.
HOLMES: Well, that person, that other name, isn't in here. I
thought it was in here for something because these are people
that made civic appointments. Did you know Reverend . . . Mr.
Travis?
WALLACE: No.
HOLMES: From, uh, Monticello, umhumm.
WALLACE: Monticello, no.
HOLMES: Well, you must not have because, uh, . . . here's
that Lyman Johnson you was . . . I showed him, though, didn't I?
WALLACE: Yes, yes.
HOLMES: Well, the person I was looking for isn't in there.
Well, now, what do you do with all of this stuff that you've been
talking about?
WALLACE: Well, I'm hoping that the Oral History Commission
�
will give me a grant to have all of the tapes transcribed so they
can be typed up. Then, I would like to write a paper, perhaps 50
to 100 pages in length, on life in the North Frankfort area,
particularly the Bottom section in the 1930's, '40's {1940s]and
'50's [1950s] focusing on the urban renewal project and the im-
pact of the urban renewal project upon the black community. Some
of the people I've spoken with claim that . . . well, as you said
earlier, you were for urban renewal as long as blacks and whites
were united in that. But some of the people I've talked to said
that the urban renewal project split the black community; that
there were blacks that were angry and upset about the project;
did not want it to proceed; and, then, there was another group
that said, yes, this will be good for Frankfort or good for us.
HOLMES: Well, I think . . . I think that, you're right, your
evaluation was a good one. But anytime you move a pattern of
living, you're going to have people who favor it and people who
don't. Right?
WALLACE: Yes. Anything that substantial.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: I think one of the concerns, and you might correct
this, no one I have spoken to up to this point remembers that any
black person was involved in the planning for urban renewal, on
the Slum Clearance Commission or on any special board or . . .
�
HOLMES: I don't think there was unless Jack might have had
some contact. And the white person that worked with him, I can't
remember who he was now.
WALLACE: Would it have been, uh, oh, Gene Hines or . . .
HOLMES: Yeah, Gene Hines might have been.
WALLACE: Yes. There was a man by the name of Charles R.
Perry. I don't know if you had any kind of . . .
HOLMES: I don't remember that name.
WALLACE: Frank Lewis was involved with the . . . Jack Rhorer
was involved with the, uh . . . or Farnham Dudgeon . . .
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . was involved with the, uh, was one of the
guiding lights, I guess, of the slum clearance project. And, of
course, got the Civic Center named after him.
HOLMES: Well, I guess it was unfortunate that all of the poor
area was in the slum clearance area.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, so many people had a difficult time
finding relocation housing.
HOLMES: Yes.
WALLACE: I don't know if any of your friends or acquaintances
experienced that who lived down there, but . . .
HOLMES: Well, some of them moved up there, uh, above the
college.
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Going out, uh . . .
WALLACE: East Main Street?
HOLMES: Going out East Main, and, then, taking a turn-off
back of the college.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, there was an apartment complex built
back in there; I think Sutterlin Place.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: And some people relocated there. Uh, the thing that
I've heard from a number of residents is they were led to believe
that once the dilapidated buildings were removed, that you could
buy back and come back into the area and that more appropriate
housing would be built.
HOLMES: But it didn't work that way.
WALLACE: No.
HOLMES: And I didn't expect it to.
WALLACE: Ahh, you didn't?
HOLMES: No, I didn't believe it because if they . . . if they
wanted to do that, why didn't they just go take an individual
area and buy it out and rebuild it?
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: In other words, that would have . . . that would have
accomplished the same thing getting rid of the slum. But they
�
wanted that big area for their hotel.
WALLACE: So, you think early on, they had determined that
their goal would be to apply the entire area for . . .
HOLMES: Yeah, I took that for granted. They took too much.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: See, they couldn't have expected . . . the Negroes
who lived there to build up [homes] to that quality [to meet
housing codes].
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And they couldn't expect the college people to go
down that far downtown.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: You took it out of the range of those who had the
best income. See what I mean?
WALLACE: Were the college people more or less, uh, would they
have found it to live in that area to be not only inconvenient,
as you just said, too far, but socially, would that have
stigmatized them to have lived in that . . .
HOLMES: I don't think so.
WALLACE: Okay. That would not have been a factor?
HOLMES: Well, we went down . . . we went down there. I know
the NAACP used to meet at all of the churches.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
HOLMES: And that was never . . . there was never any stigma
about that. But I think that was because of the people who
worked with it, see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: If you work with a thing, it becomes . . . it becomes
part of what you are.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you. Did you attend any of the
public hearings regarding the slum clearance?
HOLMES: Uh-uh.
WALLACE: See, when the project was first announced, the mayor
was John Gerard. I don't know if you remember John.
HOLMES: I remember the name, but I didn't know him.
WALLACE: Yeah. Paul Judd took over after . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . Mr. Gerard, uh, lost an election, basically is
what it was. And there were several public hearings where
residents and concerned members of the community could . . .
could go and voice their opinions.
HOLMES: Well, I don't . . . I know I didn't go to any of
them. I don't think I did.
WALLACE: Well, your husband was very articulate. He attended
. . .
HOLMES: Well, he might have been.
�
WALLACE: He attended, uh, a meeting in front of the Fiscal
Court. I remember reading in the newspaper article, and his
concern was the relocation of his business because he had his
practice over there and his office over there, and he was afraid
that . . .
HOLMES: And he did . . . he did not want to be considered the
school physician alone.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: See, that's the reason . . . see, he, at one time,
did examine all of the students. But he got a group of his
classmates from Meharry to come from their various practices and
they took that as a vacation period and came on and examined the
students. He didn't want his job to be an off-shoot of a campus
activity.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: He was a college physician. Whoever wanted him for a
physician came to him. No white person came and no black person
came because they were commanded to. He had as many white
patients, maybe more white patients than he had black.
WALLACE: I would think that would have been unusual for that
day, to have both white and black patients.
HOLMES: It didn't seem to make a bit of difference to him.
WALLACE: Yeah. I imagine he worked . . .
�
HOLMES: Dr. . . . Sanderson . . . Sanderson, the plumber, I
don't know whether you knew him or not. Did you know him?
WALLACE: No, I don't believe.
HOLMES: Well, he was an outstanding plumber, lived . . . you
know where the state Capitol building is and you make that
turn-around in there.
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: He lived out that way.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Has a lovely home out there. Well, now, uh, . . .
WALLACE: He was a patient of your husband's?
HOLMES: Yeah. He . . . the doctor spent many a night out
there when I would wake up and he wouldn't be there. He'd got a
call. And he spent many a night just by his bedside.
WALLACE: I imagine there was a lot of nights when your husband
was called out on . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah. He was one of the few doctors still making
house calls.
WALLACE: Ahh. That was probably rather hard because that
would interrupt your all's social occasions and your evenings
together and . . .
HOLMES: Well, I got used to that. And I didn't have any
children, and the only comment I ever could get from the doctor
�
was, "You just don't stay still long enough," [laughter] which
meant I probably was too busy seeing after children to have them
anyhow. I worked 20 years in Girl Scouts. I worked with the Red
Cross. I worked with the Cancer Society, NAACP and you name it.
WALLACE: Well, I remember you telling me that when you came
here, there were two Girl Scout troops and you built it up to 12
Girl Scout troops.
HOLMES: Yeah, well, with help, yes.
WALLACE: Well, as far as . . . I'm trying to think.
HOLMES: Nobody ever does anything by himself. But you lent
yourself to it. See, on days, we'd go to church together, all of
the troops; and if you were a member of the committee, you were
assigned to a troop and you sat with your troops. So, I didn't
have to . . . to worry about their conduct, see. And we've gone
to church . . . when the Corinthian Baptist was down there in
that area, we have taken over half of the church with the Girl
Scouts. And on the last time we went, we had three young people
join church that Sunday.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: So, it had . . . it had its good points.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, 12 troops, you probably had well over
150 girls in . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah, we had a lot of girls. And we'd put on . .
�
. the families would make things and we'd take them into the
windows, the store windows. Hudson's would house our windows and
we'd have some pretty handwork put in there.
WALLACE: Oh, crafts that the girls had made themselves would
be displayed?
HOLMES: Or that their parents had made and sent down there.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: Those were good days.
WALLACE: Active days for you, very active.
HOLMES: But, see, I had . . . I don't know whether you knew
the Watkins here. They lived up above the college.
WALLACE: No, I don't . . .
HOLMES: On Main Street. Now, see, I had quite a few women
who wanted to work with Girl Scouts but they didn't want to take
troops. Well, she wanted to be on the committee. And, uh, one
cold night, they came here and I said, "I'm going to make some
hot chocolate" and, then, I hurried up and made up one of those
box cakes.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And served it. So, they said, "Well, we'll run a
turn." And we made it a rule that who is going to take the next
meeting. You never had to worry about who would take it because
someone would always volunteer. But they'd serve what they
�
wanted.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And if you wanted to serve ginger ale and . . . and
pretzels, you did. Nobody said it had to be anything. And, you
know, Ms. Watkins took her turn. She served a turkey dinner
served by her husband. [Laughter - Wallace] A turkey dinner
with all of the trimmings.
WALLACE: Good grief. [Laughing]
HOLMES: And Ms. Simpson over here, she . . . she . . . she
took care of any kid that didn't have a uniform. I have been out
at twelve o'clock at night getting a kid's uniform to her so she
could appear in church the next Sunday. And, Lord, there was . .
. there was . . . down there in the Bottom, that was, too. And I
had men come to me and say, "Ms. Holmes, anytime you have to come
over here to see about your husband or anything, you just let us
know and we'll take care of you." So, I was never afraid over
there.
WALLACE: To go down into that area.
HOLMES: No. Well, there was some bad characters and they
weren't all black either.
WALLACE: Well . . .
HOLMES: But there seldom are when they're . . . when they
have [inaudible] and they're black.
�
WALLACE: Well, many . . . many of the people I've talked to
feel that the Bottom is unfairly stigmatized . . .
HOLMES: It was.
WALLACE: . . . as a violent area or as, uh, as a red light
district when, in effect, it was mainly folk from lower socio-
economic classes who were poor poor.
HOLMES: Just poor and didn't have it. I know I took an
outfit to a girl and my husband found out where I went way after
dark. It was around eleven o'clock. He was scared to death, and
I said, "But the men told me just to let them know." And you
had, uh, a man had a grocery store . . . had a store. He was a
white man that had a store. He used to tell the people to go
over to Doc and pay your bill and he would get after them if they
didn't pay their bills. And they paid their bills.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And he was a white man.
WALLACE: Well, I've heard that the blacks and whites who lived
in the area had . . . there were good race relations . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: That people looked after each other. And if you were
in that community and known to the members and a part of the
community that, uh, there was a closeness.
HOLMES: They helped me set up . . . see, I set up . . . his
�
first office was down there in that area.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I can't remember . . . and, then, he moved to his
house. But, uh, he used to send the people to Doc.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And to make you pay your bill.
WALLACE: Did your husband treat the indigents as well as those
who could afford? I mean, did he . . .
HOLMES: Oh, yeah. He never refused a person. He finally got
his money usually.
WALLACE: Umhumm. And he was in practice up until his death or
. . .
HOLMES: He practiced . . . in '83 [1983], we closed the
office.
WALLACE: So, from . . .
HOLMES: And we gave his things to one of these, uh, C . . .
not CLL. That's a late company. You've heard of that, too,
haven't you?
WALLACE: No.
HOLMES: Crystal Lake something?
WALLACE: Crystal Lake.
HOLMES: They come through with a truck every now and then and
pick up things that you don't need anymore.
�
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
HOLMES: Well, we thought of these places . . . oh, I can't
think of the names of these companies. We had one in the church,
but they didn't need the things.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And, so, we gave it all to a, uh, a school or
something which they had a medical service.
WALLACE: Ahh. So, you donated his equipment.
HOLMES: Donated everything that we didn't bring home.
WALLACE: So, he was in practice in Frankfort . . .
HOLMES: And, see, all of those books of his but you don't . .
. what are you going to do with books? Now, I have that many
more upstairs.
WALLACE: Good grief. Quite a comprehensive library that he
maintained.
HOLMES: He did. And he used his library, see.
WALLACE: He would have been in practice from 1947 to 1983
then?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: That was the . . . did any other black physicians
come into the community during that time?
HOLMES: There was one leaving when he finished school.
WALLACE: Umhumm. I remember you told me that.
�
HOLMES: And nobody came. And one reason I didn't convert it
into something else immediately after he quit was the fact that I
thought somebody might come. Well, when they didn't come, I just
converted it into a, uh, a home.
WALLACE: Umhumm. I think Frankfort currently only has one
black, uh . . . a dentist, I believe, has recently come into the
community that I've heard of.
HOLMES: I think so. I . . . I . . . he's a son of one of my
friends.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: I've forgotten what his name is now. I just heard
about it recently.
WALLACE: Well, of the changes that you've seen in the black
community in the years that you have been here, Frankfort's black
community, does anything stick in your mind as being significant
change that has taken place here and a change that has affected
the nature of the black community?
HOLMES: I don't think the churches are quite as, uh, central
an influence as they once were.
WALLACE: What would you attribute that to?
HOLMES: Well, I don't think they're . . . I don't think . . .
well, you see in the AME Church, you could only stay as long as
your bishop sends you, where in the Baptist Church, you can stay
�
as long as they don't fire you or you find a better job. Now,
see, the present pastor down at First Baptist, he told me once he
was going to Detroit or someplace. I don't know what he said. I
won't say where. And the next time . . . they had some trouble
there and he decides not to go. And I said, "What are you doing,
running away from trouble?" I said, "You can't handle it, can
you?" And he got mad at me. [Laughter - Wallace] Of course, I
was telling him the truth. He was going there as long as he
didn't have . . . there was any trouble. When he found out there
was a trouble, he wouldn't . . . but I don't blame him for not
going if he didn't want to.
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, it . . . the church at one time was a
very positive and powerful influence.
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: What kind of . . . how did that influence express
itself? That's a pretty vague question.
HOLMES: Had good attendance, in support of activities that
the churches sponsored.
WALLACE: What kind of activities did St. John's AME sponsor
over the years that you were involved in?
HOLMES: Well, we had a pretty strong movement of young
people's organization. Had a pretty strong church, but we always
had a debt. I've . . . don't . . . please don't mention this
�
any. I just gave them as part of my will a $1,000 to take care
of a sidewalk that they had to put in.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Now, I gave it to . . . they'd had that as a debt for
over a year. And I said, "I'm tired of hearing about the glass
windows that hasn't been paid for and the carpet that hasn't been
paid for and the pavement. I want to give you this now, not wait
till I die." See, my husband was buried from there, too.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay. That was very generous of you to help
support them.
HOLMES: Well, that's my church, you see. I'm an AME. Her
husband was an AME pastor. He built . . . he paid for the church
at home, Williamsport, Pennsylvania church.
WALLACE: Ahh. Well, was any benevolence work done by St.
John's AME for the indigent in the area down there?
HOLMES: I don't think so.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I think they might have helped independently or
separately, but not . . . not as a church. I don't think. Now,
I wouldn't . . . I wouldn't like to speak on that.
WALLACE: One of the stories about, uh, support organizations,
the Salvation Army used to perform on the street corners down in
Bottom area giving concerts and . . . one of the churches I've
�
heard that was active down . . . Bethel Temple. But I don't know
anything about Bethel Temple. I believe it was sort of a
holiness church or . . .
HOLMES: Well, uh . . .
WALLACE: Do you know anything on Bethel . . .
HOLMES: The Salvation Army allowed a group I was working with
to collect furniture and repair and receive things to give to
poor. And we took the back offices. You know this new place out
on . . . the place where that ship went over the dam?
WALLACE: Yeah, yeah.
HOLMES: That place on the side. Well, when they built that,
we took a lot of things and fixed them for these poor people who
were moving in.
WALLACE: Ahh, yeah. The Riverview . . . Riverview Homes.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: The public housing project. That's what you're
talking about.
HOLMES: And, see, Jack worked with that, too.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Yeah, I've read some of the correspondence
that he had when he was helping relocate people into the project.
HOLMES: Yeah. And we would . . . I've gone out there many
a-time and was hanging curtains for them, washing curtains,
hanging curtains. We even had a man try to paint a . . . a bed,
�
one of those brass beds, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: He tried to paint it. [Laughter - Wallace] It
didn't look so hot, but at least he was trying to fix things up
and make them look nice.
WALLACE: Well, did the people who moved into the public
housing project, uh, were they local residents who were being
relocated from the Bottom area?
HOLMES: Yeah, I'd say they were local area. Well, they
didn't have much of any place to go. If you didn't have money
enough to buy a place in another area, where would you have to
go?
WALLACE: You'd have to go to public housing almost.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Unless you could find some private . . .
HOLMES: And Jack was very . . . Jack was a good intermediary
person. He could get them to do what they had to do . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: . . . with less feeling of dishonor.
WALLACE: Well, that was one of the real problems early on
before Jack got involved. A lot of the residents did not trust
the white officials that they had to deal with.
HOLMES: No. I couldn't blame them either.
�
WALLACE: Why do you say that?
HOLMES: There had never been any background for setting up
any trust.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: There had never been any trust before. Why should I
trust you now? Someone keeps after your home and finally gets it
out because they say it's too bad looking, he hasn't help you
make it look any better. He hasn't helped you keep a job.
WALLACE: So, in other words, the people who created and
perpetuated the bad conditions suddenly come in and say, well,
you can't keep your home because . . .
HOLMES: Your place doesn't look like anything. It's poor and
trashy.
WALLACE: Well, that's funny. One of . . . I'll tell you the
story. One of the results of the urban renewal was the
establishment of building and housing codes.
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: So, they set up the building and housing codes . . .
when I say they, the city, and, then, they turn around and use
those same codes to condemn the houses that they were not
enforcing the landlords to keep up.
HOLMES: That's it exactly.
WALLACE: It's just . . .
�
HOLMES: I know when the floods came, I used to take students
from the campus after the floods would go down and go to the
elderly people's homes.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: Scotts and others in that area and help them get
their houses put together. And they'd say, "Well, how much do we
pay?" I said, "We did not come for pay." I said, "If you have
any cookies," I said, "the kids might enjoy eating a couple of
cookies while they're in your house." But I have taken them down
and taken two here and two there and around in there helping them
get their houses straightened again.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Somebody was talking about the Scotts the
other day. Uh, they had to go back into debt when they bought
their home.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: So many of the elderly people had paid for their
homes, the ones that owned property.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: And, then, had to go back and borrow money to acquire
another piece of property. Felt like they did not get a . . .
HOLMES: A man who worked on cars lived next door to the
Scotts [Ernest Wooldridge]. I can't think of his name. He
bought up there back of the college after you make . . .
�
WALLACE: Is it a black mechanic? Was that . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Blythe, would that have been?
HOLMES: It doesn't sound right.
WALLACE: Right.
HOLMES: I can't remember that name.
WALLACE: Didn't he have an auto repair shop down there
someplace?
HOLMES: Yeah, in his yard.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: It was right opposite the school.
WALLACE: Yes, yes.
HOLMES: I can't think of his name. He, uh, he hasn't been
dead too long, I don't think. I used to go . . . when he bought
his house up here on the hill, I used to go and visit him.
WALLACE: Umhumm. So, the Kentucky State students, assisted by
the faculty and yourself, would actually go back in and help
clean up after the floods?
HOLMES: Oh, it was a purely personal thing. I'd just get
some kids and they'd . . . I'd say, "Don't you want to go down
and help me?"
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And I'd put two here and two there. And, then,
�
they'd . . . the school didn't harness anybody at all.
WALLACE: You just . . . your personal . . .
HOLMES: Just a personal friend, yes.
WALLACE: Did . . . did individuals who were relocating as a
result of a flood, would they . . . did you ever house anybody
who had been forced to leave their home, temporarily put them up
here or in friend's homes during the flooding periods?
HOLMES: I think when they were flooding, I was getting out,
too. [Laughing - Wallace] I told you I got my husband's boots on
and I didn't think I'd ever get home. I thought my foot was
coming . . . I had to put him in here the last time they had a
flood.
[End of Tape #2, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #2, Side #2]
WALLACE: . . . that I may not have come to talk about it. I'd
rather stay with a subject that's interesting to you than try to
get back to my cards or questions because it all fits in. Every
little piece will eventually find a place and it will fit.
HOLMES: Well, I think that's why I've been accepted because
when things happened, I would go down there.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And it was . . . there was another Holmes in town.
And she was one of those . . . she lived down near the old
�
Corinthian Church.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I don't know where she is now. I don't know. But I
heard . . . I don't know where I'd rather say I'd rather have
lived than where I have been. I've . . . I've enjoyed it.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: See, I can't say that this is a kingdom in which . .
. a beautiful kingdom in which to live, but it has had some
pleasant memories.
WALLACE: Memories. And you say you were accepted by the
individuals who lived in the Bottom as well as up on the hill at
the campus.
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: So, you could move within both communities.
HOLMES: And, see, I wasn't known by any of them. So, I came
in a complete stranger. Now, I made my own circle.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: It wasn't that . . . I . . . see, uh, when I came
here, I stayed up on the campus in the dormitory one year, and,
then, they built an apart- . . . apartments for faculty members
and Ms. Light and several others, we moved into those. But I
made it a point to get out in the community more, I think.
WALLACE: Let me ask you. Does . . . I've got some names of .
�
. . of women, both black and white, who had been active over the
years; not necessarily civically active, but in business and
other things. Uh, Ms. Ruby Jackson. Would you have remembered a
Ruby Jackson, a black woman?
HOLMES: Vaguely.
WALLACE: Mamma Bryant.
HOLMES: That doesn't ring a bell.
WALLACE: Okay. She, uh, apparently . . . the stories I've
heard that she was a very kind-hearted, generous individual and
took in a number of black orphans and raised them. And she was
very well known for her cooking. She was quite a cook. And they
used to have something in the Bottom where if a woman was cooking
up a special amount of extra food and she wanted to sell it or
make it available to neighbors in the community, she would hang a
lamp out the front of the door.
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: And you would go to the house. And if you wanted to
purchase what she had available, you could. Like Mamma Bryant
served . . .
HOLMES: Fried chicken.
WALLACE: Yes, I believe you're right, fried chicken. And a
man down at the end of your street here, Mr. Calhoun . . .
HOLMES: Yeah.
�
WALLACE: James Calhoun, he called those festivals. They were
referred to as festivals. You'd go from house to house and you
could buy what you wanted. Uh, Ida Howard, a white woman of
somewhat questionable reputation.
HOLMES: That doesn't ring a bell.
WALLACE: Yeah. Uh . . .
HOLMES: I tried to stay within reputable moral limits
[laughter] because that . . . that was not, uh, it was not
impossible to fall into the lower level if you [inaudible].
WALLACE: [Laughing] Ms. Nellie Harris.
HOLMES: Yes, I remember that.
WALLACE: She worked for, uh, Caruthers or Carithers. I don't
really know anything about her. I just have the name.
HOLMES: Well, the name kindly rings a bell.
WALLACE: Ms. Eva Cox, quite a character. Used to sell base-
ball tickets. Probably her hygiene wasn't the best, but she was
a character, I guess, in the best sense of the word.
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Go from door to door selling these baseball tickets.
HOLMES: Well, evidently, I'm not . . . I'm not a baseball
fan. So, evidently, I didn't buy many.
WALLACE: Julia Miles.
HOLMES: That doesn't ring a bell either.
�
WALLACE: Dorothy Wright.
HOLMES: Uh-uh.
WALLACE: Louise Evans. Bessie Anderson.
HOLMES: Yeah. Now, I don't know if it's the Bessie Anderson.
Bessie Anderson lived around here on Third Street.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: A couple of doors down from Murray.
WALLACE: I guess . . .
HOLMES: Now, that was the Bessie Anderson. She was a very
good cook. She made the best eggnog in town. [Laughter -
Wallace] You had to dip it with a spoon. [Laughter - Wallace]
And we all went around there . . . this young man, he was going .
. . we were all in little groups, we'd visit around on New Year's
Eve.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: Christmas Eve.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: And they'd go to Miss Bessie. And, uh, another lady
next door, Ms. Creel, who is in the home out here, uh, the home
that Ramsey has out here.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: I think she's still living, but you know what. She's
so fair, I have never been able to locate her. My husband was in
�
that home a whole year, and I have never been able to find her
without asking. And I was too proud to ask.
WALLACE: To ask. Her complexion was so light-skinned.
HOLMES: Oh, she was very fair.
WALLACE: Well, I just . . . these are names that I've picked
up in conversation. I'm not sure that they're significant or
not. Nannie Oliver. Ms. Matt Hardin. Maggie Harris.
HOLMES: Maggie Harris. None of those names seem to ring any
bells one way or the other. I just don't recall them. I
wouldn't like to say anything because I don't . . . I don't even
know what category to put them.
WALLACE: Right.
HOLMES: Categorically.
WALLACE: Of all of the changes that you've seen at Kentucky
State University over the years, the different administrations,
the growth of the campus, what would you deem are the most
significant changes that Kentucky State has undergone in its
history since you've been on faculty? That's a very broad
question, I know, but . . .
HOLMES: It sure is. Well, I'll say one thing. Nobody except
Dr. Atwood had the love of the old graduates. He remembered
every person that had ever been here. He remember their names.
He could call your name. And, you see, that to a student after
�
they'd been out a long time means a whole lot.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And, now, Rufus B. Atwood, I met his family soon
after I came here. He sent me on a recruiting trip and I went
down among his family, down the north part of the state. And
they were, uh, uh, a well-known family. And he knew everybody,
whoever went here. And when he . . . when he'd stand up
commencement time even after he retired and Dr. Hill was the next
president came. He was the one that we knew personally before I
even come here, see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: We never let them know that, and we'd do our visiting
down here rather than up at his house.
WALLACE: Sure.
HOLMES: See, because you don't ever want to let anybody think
that you've got anything by your pull because you didn't.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And, see, when his wife died, I . . . I was the first
person to see him outside of his secretary. I was doing some
work in his office. The accreditation group was coming for him.
The college was having its first national accreditation.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And they had asked me to chair it, you know, so that
�
everything that I . . . that got written up had to be approved by
me and, then, be typed up and go to the publisher and all that
sort of thing. And, uh, uh, uh, when she died, I had . . . I had
. . . I was working and I was in his office. And I called to see
. . . well, I knew he'd taken her to the doctor. And when his
secretary said, "Ms. Hill has just died", I said, "Well, does he
want to see anybody? Would he want to see me?" She said, "Yes,
I think he'd like to see you." And, see, I was . . . I . . . I
wasn't connected with him because of what he did here. But, see,
I knew him before he came here.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I knew him at Tennessee State, see. He was at
Tennessee State when my husband went to Meharry. And, of course,
I just adopted his friendships.
WALLACE: Well, it's interesting. Your experience has been so
varied and so different from most of the people that I've talked
to that I've got an entirely different perspective on the black
leadership in the community, black civic organizations, the Girl
Scouting experience, the NAACP experience that no one else has
been able to give me. I . . . you have helped me quite a bit,
quite a bit.
HOLMES: Well, now, we used to have big NAACP dinners. We got
a man who was a relative of, who lives, who lived up across from
�
the old training school. And he would cook dinners and we would
sell dinners and carry them. Oh, we'd make a couple hundred
dollars, clear a couple of hundred dollars in the NAACP dinner.
WALLACE: What would you use the funds for? Did you underwrite
activities?
HOLMES: Umm.
WALLACE: What kind of things was the NAACP chapter [be] doing?
HOLMES: Well, we always kept a little treasury for when you'd
make these marches. If you'd get anybody in jail, you have to
get them out. Now, I only had one person go to jail. And I went
over and got him out immediately.
WALLACE: The Frankfort Drug situation you were telling me
about.
HOLMES: Yeah, that's the only one. And that was an accident.
They had . . . see, they would let me eat over there. That
wasn't the point. But this boy, they weren't supposed to let
anybody get arrested.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And . . . and, see, now, the policemen who worked
down at the other bank for a long time, they were on our side;
but, of course, they were on our side when we were doing the
right thing. That's why I had this lawyer . . . you know . . .
WALLACE: Ed Prichard, Ed Prichard.
�
HOLMES: Prichard. I asked him if I, for instance, had a
group crossing the street, the light turns red. Should I split
the group or should I take them across or should I pull them all
back? In other words, I didn't want anybody to get arrested for
doing what he didn't know about.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: In other words, we were going to march over here to
the building. Well, I didn't want to get arrested for going on a
. . . on a red light.
WALLACE: Light, yes.
HOLMES: But I didn't see any. I didn't see going on there.
And while I seldom sat-in myself, I would make the tour of the
places where I took students and I had a schedule I put up my
bulletin board every day. Tomorrow, such and such . . . I had a
woman come and stay in this house with me who trained our
sitters.
WALLACE: Ahh. You mean you actually had someone from outside
the community . . .
HOLMES: A white person come here and live in my house.
WALLACE: And train the students . . .
HOLMES: And train . . .
WALLACE: . . . who were to sit-in.
HOLMES: Yeah.
�
WALLACE: Where did she come from? Who . . . who was she, do
you remember?
HOLMES: I don't remember her name.
WALLACE: Who sent her? Did the national NAACP send her down
to assist?
HOLMES: Somebody sent her, or, at least, she was known by us
by some previous activity she had conducted.
WALLACE: Umhumm. So, as far as training, she would teach the
students nonviolent techniques . . .
HOLMES: Yeah,
WALLACE: . . . to . . . in case they were confronted at the
restaurants, that kind of thing.
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Did you actually sit-in yourself in some of this . .
.
HOLMES: Yes, in some cases. Now, I went to Hampton and me
and my husband would sit down and eat. While he was in session,
I went downtown and I got thirsty and I passed the drugstore; and
in my Pennsylvania habit, I went in and got a drink. I ordered a
drink. She sent to get my drink and a white couple came in. I
was on this side of the corner like this, you know.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: And they sat over here, not . . . we were the only
�
ones there. So, it wasn't a matter of just getting a pop. And I
said, "Oh," I told her, I said, "if you haven't served up that
Coke, I think I'd rather have that mint sherbert."
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: And they gave it to me. No question, no problem at
all. When I went home and told him where I had gotten some
refreshment, he said, "Oh, my God, we'll have to get out of
here." But nothing ever happened. [Laughter - Wallace] And,
see, uh, some of those things, I . . . I had never had to sit in
the back of a bus all my life.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: You got on the bus and you sat wherever there was a
seat. So, anything I did was not my intent.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: But following the pattern of life I'd always lived.
WALLACE: Well, given your activism in the NAACP and your
leadership role, did that cost you any friendships amongst the
white leadership here in . . .
HOLMES: I imagine it might have, but I think they honored me
for taking my stand.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And, you know, I would never run. I sat on every
committee in the city . . .
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: . . . except City Commission. And they used to call
me "There's that woman". I'd pass, "There's that woman".
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: They . . . they didn't call me by name usually.
"There's that woman".
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Well, sit-in . . . sit-in up at Frisch's. We had the
people sit in there until they . . . they turned the cold air on
them one time when there was there. It was the winter.
WALLACE: They turned the air conditioning on them?
HOLMES: The air conditioner on the kids.
WALLACE: Ahh. Now, the story I hear about Frisch's, and you
can confirm or deny this, is that some of the whites got on the
door there and were letting only white customers in as opposed to
blacks. And one of the individuals who was sort of manning the
door was Joe Leary, who was very active in the white First
Baptist Church and on the radio and had his Sunday School class.
And George, uh, Simmons was telling me this story. And said he
could not believe that Joe Leary [Joseph J. Leary] was blocking
their entrance into the Frisch's restaurant because of . . .
HOLMES: Well, I don't know who it was. Of course, I was
interested in having . . . my concern was that the kids will not
�
be harmed.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And I'd take a certain group out when I thought they
were too cold and get them warmed in our cars that was parked on
the side, and, then, we'd go back.
WALLACE: Umhumm. When was this taking place, about . . . do
you remember what time that would have been?
HOLMES: You mean time of day or time of year?
WALLACE: Time of . . . what year?
HOLMES: I can't remember that with too much accuracy.
WALLACE: During the administration of Rufus Atwood?
HOLMES: I would think so.
WALLACE: Okay. Prior to the 1964 Civil Rights legislation?
HOLMES: Yes, I think it was then.
WALLACE: Because I would think it would have preceded that.
HOLMES: I would think it would. Uh, we sat in in a
drugstore. As I said, they . . . they would serve me if I went
in alone because I was the doctor's wife. But they wouldn't
serve the people who went with me. I've had the people turned
down.
WALLACE: Well, the lawsuits that, uh, Ed Prichard handled in
relation to Frankfort Drug . . .
HOLMES: He never had to handle a case.
�
WALLACE: What . . . what happened there?
HOLMES: They just . . . they . . . only one person got put in
jail for a few minutes, and I went and got him right out.
WALLACE: Okay. So, no legal action resulted.
HOLMES: No legal action ever really happened. I took . . . I
tried to take action that could be meaningful. I think I'm fair
to say that, uh, I planned most of the sitting-in.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And I'd try to plan what could be meaningful to the
cause without putting it at a crucial point.
WALLACE: Umhumm. When did, uh . . . did the restaurants
eventually capitulate and begin to serve . . .
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . black . . .
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . black customers?
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: Did it take . . . what . . . did it take a number of
months for this to transpire or were you all able to achieve it
in a relatively short time?
HOLMES: Well, I think it just kind of . . . just kind of grew
up.
WALLACE: Umhumm. One by one they would change their attitude
�
. . .
HOLMES: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . towards . . .
HOLMES: And, uh, we had some regulations about what you do if
they come to you and try to turn your seat up and that sort of
thing.
WALLACE: Do you remember any of those regulations?
HOLMES: Well, give up your seat and go out and do some- . . .
and meet the group and do something else.
WALLACE: Do not attempt to resist or physically . . .
HOLMES: Don't make a physical resistance.
WALLACE: Resistance.
HOLMES: You weren't gaining anything. Make it somewhere
else.
WALLACE: Umhumm. So, you all were passive and nonviolent in
your approach to resistance.
HOLMES: I guess you could say that; but, see, we seldom had
any potentially violent situations for them. For instance, at
Frisch's, they closed the place when it was full of Negro
children.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Rather than serve them, they simply closed
the restaurant.
HOLMES: With them in there.
�
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And turned the air conditioner on. And, so, we just
kept them from serving anybody on Sunday afternoon.
WALLACE: Did the group encounter any violence from the whites?
Were there any assaults upon any of the picketers or the sit-in
folk by whites?
HOLMES: I don't think so. We . . . we kept a very well
chaperoned group.
WALLACE: Umhumm. It sounds like it was a marvelous success
without any . . . virtually any trouble.
HOLMES: Well, I can't remember any real trouble we had. See,
uh, the NAACP and our members, we had a lot of senior who's . . .
seniors who worked with the young people. And the president [Dr.
Atwood] said to me, "Ms. Holmes, just take care of my children."
WALLACE: Ahh. You mean the president of Kentucky State?
HOLMES: Of Kentucky State. [President Atwood said] "Ms.
Holmes, take care of my children." And the woman who taught them
stayed in this house.
WALLACE: Umm. You just mentioned that, that she actually
resided with you.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WALLACE: So, you all were very well prepared when you went
into this campaign.
�
HOLMES: Well, I think we took pains to work out what we were
going to do.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: See, when we . . . when they said to go up in the
pool on Friday night, we said that won't do. We sent word to
them. And, then, I got, I think, about three or four boys who
were, uh, very good swimmers and . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: . . . all that sort of thing to volunteer to be the
first ones to go in. We even . . . nobody told them to buy
suits. I said, now, I don't know whether they're going to
require tops or not, but you have tops. And if they wear tops,
you wear tops. And Al was one of those men. But, you know, they
got so nervous they did . . . I'd say that the fee was sixty
cents to go in. I don't remember. And if they gave them a
dollar, they took out the forty cents for the admission and gave
them the sixty back. [Laughter] So, I'd say they weren't quite
sure what they were doing either. See, every now and then we had
an amusing moment, and, then, you . . . you had some worrisome
moments, too.
WALLACE: What were some of the worrisome moments to you?
HOLMES: When I couldn't get around to watch the sitting-in in
all of the places where they were sitting-in at any one time.
�
WALLACE: You felt a little out of control perhaps as far as .
. .
HOLMES: I could trust some people to know what to do, but I .
. . I wasn't sure what was coming up and you're never sure what
to do when you're not . . . when you don't know what's coming up.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Were there other campaigns like the sit-in
campaign that . . . that you coordinated, other activities that
you remember or led, perhaps?
HOLMES: A sit-in at that time was about all I could handle.
[Laughter]
WALLACE: How did you . . . how did you get to head that,
because by virtue of your NAACP leadership?
HOLMES: Yeah, and . . . I don't know how I took charge of it
up at the school. But Dr. Atwood took my . . . he was not a
member of the NAACP. And I told him, I said, "You can't afford
not to be." He gave me his life membership, paid it down in one
check. [Laughter - Wallace] Said, "Just take care of my
children now."
WALLACE: And you did. This has been delightful. I have
really enjoyed it. I very much have. I hope I haven't take too
much of your time.
HOLMES: Well, I have more time than I have anything.
WALLACE: Well, I . . .
�
HOLMES: I . . .
WALLACE: Was there anything you thought I would ask about that
I haven't really discussed?
HOLMES: I didn't know what you were going to ask about, and I
didn't let it worry me.
WALLACE: No, good. I was . . .
HOLMES: Because, as I said, if there was something I didn't
want to answer, I'd tell you that in a minute. I'm indep- . . .
as you see, I've been quite an independent cuss.
WALLACE: Yes. [Laughing]
HOLMES: But I've been a pretty companionable cuss, too.
WALLACE: And I think you've made quite a contribution to the
community, both the Kentucky State community and Frankfort's
community. I really . . .
HOLMES: I . . .
WALLACE: I say that with all sincerity. When you look at the
status of . . . of blacks today and the progress that's been made
in achieving equal opportunities of employment and other areas,
uh, do you think we're still continuing in that civil rights vein
or . . . or are we still making progress, in your estimation, as
far as an equal society?
HOLMES: Well, I don't . . . I think . . . for instance, right
through here, we've been having trouble with some people running
�
up and messing up cars. Now, I don't know who they are. I don't
know whether they're white or black. My car hasn't been messed
up and none of us on this . . . in this block who have cars that
have been. But they've been down that way.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Now, I don't know who they are.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: So, I can't say that that's been a reflection of
what's going on now or not. I can't say that.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And I won't say it because I would be indicting
people I have no reason to indict.
WALLACE: Yeah. I was just . . .
HOLMES: And being a good English teacher, you know that you
should back up your reasoning.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: I used to tell my English majors, "I'm not teaching
you how to write good English so you'll be an English teacher.
I'm teaching you so you can defend yourself."
WALLACE: Well, as a historian, I know that you can't make
assertions without evidence to support them or you'll quickly be,
uh, discredited.
HOLMES: One exception can disprove you.
�
WALLACE: Exactly.
HOLMES: And, see, there are exceptions to almost everything,
but, uh, they don't . . . they aren't . . . they aren't always
involved inceptions.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: Exceptions.
WALLACE: Well, once I complete all of my taping, then, I'm
going to go start doing research in the court records, in the
newspapers and manuscript collections trying to verify as much as
I can of what I've been told by all of the people I've spoken
with so when I quote a tape, I can point to documents that
support the tape as well.
HOLMES: Well, I think you should adeq- . . . have adequate
proof of that because like I . . . I have no records of the dates
of all of these things.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I was too busy doing things . . .
WALLACE: To make records of them.
HOLMES: . . . to make records.
WALLACE: Well, let me . . .
HOLMES: And you didn't always have enough time to do those
things.
WALLACE: Let me give you one of my business cards. If, by
�
chance, you think of an individual or someone I should definitely
speak with, you might . . .
HOLMES: Well, I'll tell you one now I can give. "Buddy"
Ellis, do you know him?
WALLACE: I know him by name. Someone told me he used to drive
Dr. Underwood at one point. That was . . .
HOLMES: Well, I didn't know that. But I do know this. Uh,
he has run for City Councilman. He's one of those who didn't
make it.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: He used to work . . . you know, the Noonan's Store?
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: You probably knew him that way.
WALLACE: The one on Second Street down that way.
HOLMES: Yeah, the Noonan's Store on Second Street.
WALLACE: Street.
HOLMES: He used to do all of their stocking.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And he used to get a new stock of [inaudible]. When
I came south, a whole lot of things I didn't eat. I knew trout
and perch fish and shad, but they'd never heard about shad here.
And when I talk about a stuff baked shad was our Easter Sunday
dinner, for years on end, that was $1 a pound when I was a child.
�
And Dad had really spent himself when he bought us this big long
shad.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And, see, that doesn't mean a thing to these people
here.
WALLACE: No.
HOLMES: Because they eat catfish, and I never ate catfish.
WALLACE: Until you came . . . did you ever eat catfish after
you came down there?
HOLMES: Oh, yeah, I eat catfish now.
WALLACE: So, you had to adjust your dietary habits as well.
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: Had you ever eaten chitlings before you came down
here?
HOLMES: I still don't. [Laughter - Wallace] I haven't
tasted them. Just looking at them and smelling them and knowing
what they are is enough for me. [Laughter] But I'll tell you,
for instance. My first job was in Durham, North Carolina in a
public high school.
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: One of my grandmother's relatives . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: . . . Sadie Canter Marcel, her husband was a lawyer
�
and he set up that Negro Lawyers Association, see. And I met the
principal of the high school there in her home and he gave me my
first job.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: So, I . . . I was, uh . . . they used to have these
chitling suppers.
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: And I would buy the supper and give the chitlings to
somebody else and they'd give me their potato salad. [Laughter -
Wallace] I have never tasted it. I can't get courage enough to
try it. [Laughter - Wallace] No, I can't get courage enough to
try it.
WALLACE: "Buddy" Ellis would be . . . is his first name James
Ellis?
HOLMES: Yeah, I think so. Now, he lives in the . . . right
back of the church.
WALLACE: Oh.
HOLMES: On Second, the Corinthian Church.
WALLACE: The Corinthian?
HOLMES: Yeah, the new Corinthian.
WALLACE: Okay. Well, there's so many people to talk to, so
many that to do it right, I've got a lot of work ahead of me.
HOLMES: His wife died recently.
�
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: Anna Laura.
WALLACE: And you know, his mother is still alive, though.
HOLMES: And she lives right around here.
WALLACE: And I had met her out at the Senior Citizens Center
and she was quite a gracious lady. And we were going to get
together and talk, and, then, uh, then, the death took place and
I have . . .
HOLMES: She lives right around here.
WALLACE: Oh, really? Around the corner here?
HOLMES: Yeah. She lives around there. Of course, she's
right on the alley. You know this street that's behind me?
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: My lot runs out to the street.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: Well, she lives on the corner of that now. I used to
. . . her husband and I belonged to several committees down to .
. . city organization together. He was blind.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: I used to take him . . . go over and get him and
bring him home. And she marveled with that bringing him all the
way to the door. I said, "Well, I got him from the door." Who
would put a blind man out on the curb when you'd have to go up a
�
landing and all of that? I said, "Well, I wouldn't think of
doing that."
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: And, of course, that's . . . that's . . . that's . .
. she's really not "Buddy" Ellis's mother.
WALLACE: Ahh. Step-mother.
HOLMES: Step-mother.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay. Well, I met her and she seemed very nice.
HOLMES: She is a very lovely person.
WALLACE: I thought that once things settled down in her
situation, I'll try and make contact again and talk with her.
HOLMES: To show you, when Anna Laura died, evidently she made
rolls for the church at the time of the funeral and she called me
and said I have hung a dozen rolls on your door . . . doorknob.
WALLACE: Ahh, how thoughtful.
HOLMES: That's to show you the nice little things. She said,
"You always took such good care of my husband." I said, "Well, I
wouldn't have let him out" . . . he had to go up . . . he had to
walk up something about almost as steep as those steps.
WALLACE: Good grief.
HOLMES: Getting up to his steps.
WALLACE: Un-huh.
HOLMES: It . . . it was stretched out . . .
�
WALLACE: Yes.
HOLMES: But it was . . . and, see, letting a blind man out to
walk up that far when you're a grown woman able to help him up,
that didn't sound to me like the thing to do.
WALLACE: Umm.
HOLMES: And I never did.
WALLACE: Well, I do appreciate your allowing me into your home
and allowing me to talk to you. And if by chance you see any of
your friends and . . . and people that you think I should talk
to, feel free to mention my name or let me know . . .
HOLMES: Well, now, Dorothy Wilson is a teacher in that
school.
WALLACE: The Mayo-Underwood.
HOLMES: The old . . . was . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
HOLMES: . . . in the Mayo-Underwood area. She might be able
to help you with some things that I wouldn't know.
WALLACE: All right.
HOLMES: But I'll tell you. That school got out with me
because . . . well, I didn't like the way the teacher conducted
her class. I wanted my class to learn English. I didn't send
them down to write letters to the teacher. So, I prohibited my
kids from going to teach under her.
�
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
HOLMES: Now, see, I'm not racially conscious, but she wasn't
teaching. Anytime they sit there and write letters for her and I
have to give them a grade in observation, it better be observed
with some decency.
WALLACE: Un-huh. So, your students were going down there and
observing . . .
HOLMES: Teaching.
WALLACE: . . . teaching because they were intending to become
teachers?
HOLMES: English teachers. They had to put in so many hours
of observation.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: And I had to supervise.
WALLACE: I see. So, you would prefer they not go to that . .
. that teacher's class because you didn't feel that she was
giving . . .
HOLMES: I didn't think she was giving them what she was
supposed to give them, not because she was black.
WALLACE: Umhumm. This is Ms. Wilson now?
HOLMES: She was one of the teachers that was down there.
"Plug" . . . "Plug" Williams taught down there.
WALLACE: Yes.
�
HOLMES: I helped him make scenery for that play.
WALLACE: Ahh.
HOLMES: They got ready to give a play and they didn't have
two pieces of background that had the same figure on them. I
said, "Plug, let's paint these doggone things." So, we put them
down on the floor and painted them.
WALLACE: Well, one of the things I've heard about Mayo-
Underwood is that it was quite a social center. I mean, there
were plays . . .
HOLMES: Plays.
WALLACE: . . . and concerts and . . .
HOLMES: Well, see, you had the Grad Club which was a club of
grad . . . former graduates of that who set to help sponsor . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
HOLMES: . . . those activities.
WALLACE: Yeah. They would raise money to purchase athletic
equipment.
HOLMES: Uniforms and the like.
WALLACE: Yeah. And that club still is in existence.
HOLMES: Oh, yeah. It has a clubhouse over there next to . .
. some property on 3 . . . 330 . . . 329 Wallace Avenue.
WALLACE: Still assisting Kentucky State Univer- . . . well,
providing scholarships, I think, is one of their things.
�
HOLMES: Well, I don't know that they provide the scholarships
now. I don't really know about that.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, I'm going to shut up shop here, and,
uh, if you'd like a copy of the tapes, I'll be glad to get a copy
of these tapes if you'd like to keep them for any reason.
[End of Interview]
�PAGE �1�
�PAGE �1�
1:00