Frankfort’s Craw Oral History Project
Interview with Mary Helen Berry
July 2,1991.
Conducted by James Wallace
© 1991 Kentucky Oral History Commission
Kentucky Historical Society
Kentucky Oral History Commission
100 W. Broadway ( Frankfort, KY 40601
502-564-1792 ( (fax) 502-564-0475 ( history.ky.gov
Use and Quotation Policy
Authorization must be granted by the Kentucky Historical Society (which includes
the Kentucky Oral History Commission) to use or publish by any means any archival material to which the Society holds copyright. To obtain authorization, users will submit a completed Use Agreement to the Kentucky Historical Society Special Collections & Reference Services. Fees for all uses, excepting non-profit or other use, with the intent to enhance understanding of or appreciation for Kentucky’s heritage will be assessed on a case-by-case basis and added to the cost of reproduction.Users may not alter, distort, or change in any way the text or the image to be
used, unless otherwise authorized by the Society. Researchers are responsible for obtaining permission to publish by any means any material held at the Society but to which the KHS does not hold copyright. The Society is not responsible for any copyright infringement.Users will not quote or otherwise reproduce in part or in whole any archival
material, without citing the “Kentucky Historical Society,” and without giving explicit written acknowledgement of the collection from which it was obtained, as designated by the Society.Users will present to the Kentucky Historical Society Special Collections &
Reference Services one (1) copy of any publication using materials held by the Society or will provide any other proof of appropriate acknowledgment and citation as the Society will designate.Only material that will not be physically damaged by the process of duplication
will be copied. The Society reserves the right to withhold permission for the reproduction of any material involving unusual difficulty or great risk to the original.This is an unedited transcript. Quotation of materials from this transcript
should be corroborated with the original audio recording if possible.The following interview is an unrehearsed interview with Ms.
Mary Helen Berry for "Frankfort's 'Craw:' An African-American
Community Remembered." The interview was conducted by James E.
Wallace in Frankfort, Kentucky, July 2, 1991.
[An interview with Ms. Mary Helen Berry]
WALLACE: . . . people . . . one person said it was on Clinton
and others said it was on, uh, Center Street; but, see, they're .
. .
BERRY: No, this is not no Center Street. Nothing on Center
Street had anything like this.
WALLACE: Well, the other thing is it may have been washed out
by the flood, if it . . . you know, in '37 [1937], too. It's
hard to tell.
BERRY: There's this lady that used to be right . . . would
hang her clothes the banisters.
WALLACE: Let them air out?
BERRY: No. Dried there. Oh, Lord a mercy. Is that too
noisy?
WALLACE: Well, I was thinking maybe I might . . . I don't
think it's going to hurt us. We need the air.
BERRY: Well, I'll turn it off, then.
�
WALLACE: Oh, no. Let me, uh . . . maybe I can turn it where
the sound is . . .
BERRY: Well, it's old one.
WALLACE: . . . the sound . . . I think it will be okay.
BERRY: Well.
WALLACE: If it doesn't bother you too much.
BERRY: No. No, I just [inaudible] one that's . . .
WALLACE: Oh, it isn't going to . . . as long as we've got the
mike and everything, I think we'll be okay. I'll get my cards a
little bit better organized here.
BERRY: Yeah. Well, you know where this is, Odd Fellows
Building. Well, I declare. This is a good picture of that.
WALLACE: Yeah, that was a beautiful building, that Odd Fellows
Building. I . . . that's back . . . I think that's in back of
them houses along Wilkinson. That's . . .
BERRY: It is, look like the back of those houses. And we
didn't realize how poor they looked. Umm-umm. Well, these are
good pictures. And they let you use them?
WALLACE: Yeah. They let . . . these are not the originals.
These are copies. They . . . they don't trust me with no
originals, but they let me use copies, which is just, for my
purposes, is just as good. Uh . . .
BERRY: [Inaudible] come back in there.
�
WALLACE: Oh. That would be fine.
BERRY: Okay.
WALLACE: Uh, let me get some [inaudible] out of the way here.
Let's see, today is . . .
BERRY: The second.
WALLACE: . . . Tuesday, July 2nd.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: We're at the home of Ms. Helen Berry to talk a little
bit about Bottom. Are you a native of Frankfort, Ms. Berry?
BERRY: Oh, yes. Yeah, born and raised here. Don't ask me
what year. [Laughter - Wallace] Uh-uh. I don't tell that.
[Laughter]
WALLACE: That's all right. I wouldn't ask you that year.
Were you . . . who were your parents?
BERRY: My mother was Mary Evans.
WALLACE: Mary Evans.
BERRY: And my father was named Robert Berry.
WALLACE: Robert Berry, okay.
BERRY: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: Were you born down in the section of Frankfort
referred to as Bottom?
BERRY: Yes. I was born . . . what was it I was fixing to
say . . . it was on the . . . Dudley Street.
�
WALLACE: Dudley.
BERRY: Dudley.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: That would have been in behind what eventually became
Mayo-Underwood?
BERRY: Yes. It was on, first, Dudley. Then, it changed to
Blanton Street.
WALLACE: Yes. I've seen the . . .
BERRY: That Mayo-Underwood was on that same street, part of
it.
WALLACE: Okay. What . . . what is your earliest remembrance
of growing up in Bottom? When you think about it, the earliest
thing you remember?
BERRY: Well, the first thing I remember, there was no
automobiles in our area. It was all horse and buggies.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: But the people there were poor people, but everybody
looked after each other. And my mother had to work and I had to
stay in homes of other people, but I was a child of the
neighborhood. I went around with the older people because I was
brought up that a way.
WALLACE: Where did your mamma work?
�
BERRY: Then, she worked for Mr. Marvin Averill. He was one
of the owners of Averill Drug Store.
WALLACE: Ah, okay. Okay. Did most of the mammas have to work
to . . .
BERRY: Oh, yes. Most of the mothers had to work and,
especially, unwed mothers. Yes, people worked. They either
worked out as a cook or laundry workers.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Did, uh, daddies work, too?
BERRY: Well, my daddy, such as he was, he worked at the
distillery.
WALLACE: Ah. Well, that would have been a good job for a
black, wouldn't it; to be at the distillery?
BERRY: Yeah. Well, it was a good job.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Because he had a large family on his wife's side.
His wife had died when he got tangled with my mother. Yes, yes.
WALLACE: So, your mamma was really providing most of the
support.
BERRY: She was . . . goodness, all of the . . . all of the
support. She had these two children.
WALLACE: Okay. So, she worked for the Averills for her entire
career or . . .
BERRY: No. After she left the Averills, she went to work
�
for the J. W. Fouts.
WALLACE: Ah. The Fouts?
BERRY: Fouts, umhumm.
WALLACE: Okay. Well, as a woman, what kind of jobs were
available to your mamma; I mean, just day work or . . .
BERRY: Cooks. Or you either was a cook or you were a nanny
or you did laundry work.
WALLACE: How would you get onto one of those jobs; a family
would ask for you or . . .
BERRY: Well . . . yes. You always were, really,
recommended. If you were noted for a good cook, you'd soon find
out because people always entertained. They did a lot of
entertaining back those days, families would, and your name was
brought in that way.
WALLACE: Well, you told me a story before we started recording
about . . . Mamma would bring home food.
BERRY: Yes. We called it smother boxes.
WALLACE: Smother box?
BERRY: Yeah. Or anything like that, or leftovers. We can
see her bring that.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Yeah. Well, one of the things you said, uh,
that what you would get basically in a smother box was . . .
BERRY: Just . . .
�
WALLACE: . . . food from the table that . . .
BERRY: From the table or the kitchen that they didn't want
to eat or, if it was enough, they would allow her to bring . . .
because they knew she had children . . . just enough to feed the
children.
WALLACE: Children.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: So, she got that in addition to whatever wages . . .
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . that they were paying.
BERRY: Yes. Five dollars a week.
WALLACE: Five a week.
BERRY: Five dollars.
WALLACE: Was that pretty much standard for . . .
BERRY: That wa- . . . that was good money for a lady.
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, was your mamma renting? Were you all
renting a place?
BERRY: Yes. Two dollars . . . no, a dollar and a half a
week.
WALLACE: Ah. Okay. That's a pretty good amount on $5.
BERRY: Yes. A dollar and a half a week. And, of course,
then, you didn't have electric, you didn't have running water.
Your water was outdoors from a hydrant in the back yard.
�
WALLACE: Did you share that with other families?
BERRY: No. Most people then had their own water, like
everybody out in the back yard.
WALLACE: So, you had no electric, no . . .
BERRY: No, we didn't have no electric for years.
WALLACE: When . . . when . . . what period of time was this,
the twenties [1920's], maybe, or . . .
BERRY: Well, it was back there in the early twenties
[1920's], because everybody had coal oil lamps.
WALLACE: How did you heat your place? Did you have a furnace?
BERRY: We had coal . . . coal stoves.
WALLACE: Coal Stoves.
BERRY: Or grates. Those who were fortunate, they had a coal
stove, but you cooked with her on a coal stove or on a grate.
WALLACE: And didn't have, like, an indoor tub, a commode, or .
. .
BERRY: Oh, no. Your lavatory was in the back yard.
WALLACE: Well, as a renter, uh, did your landlord keep up the
place, or . . .
BERRY: Yes. They kept it up because children were
well-tamed. They . . . the parents didn't allow you to tear into
straw like children today.
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
BERRY: And, so, we were . . . children were behaved children
back there. Of all children, most of them back in our area had
good manners.
WALLACE: Did you all live at that place very long, or did you
move different places?
BERRY: No. We stayed in one place, well, for a few years
and, then, as . . . we just had two room, most people then, that
you kn- . . . was living like my mother, had just two rooms. The
children slept . . . all slept in this one room, and you had a
bedroom and a kitchen. And, then, when things got better, she
moved across the street to a three-room house.
WALLACE: Ah, okay. Who, uh . . . was that still on Blanton?
BERRY: Still on Blanton, or Dudley Street. Yes, uh-huh. It
was still Dudley then. It wasn't Blanton.
WALLACE: Okay. Uh, as far as your family, how many children
did . . .
BERRY: Just two of us, a boy and a girl.
WALLACE: Two? Okay. You might describe your home a little
bit to me; the rooms and what, uh . . . what kind of furnishings
you had and that type of thing.
BERRY: Well, it was sparse because, as I said, my mother was
only the provided and, uh, my brother had some relatives and,
when my mother moved, when someone would buy something . . .
�
well, you didn't tra- . . . you trade any furniture then . . .
they would give. And I was . . . we were talking about it
because I'm not ashamed. You bought oranges and bananas in
crates. Our first, uh, safe was made from orange crates.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: And my mother sewed and when she . . . we were never
ashamed of anything because she would have curtains and
everything was always clean. Because, I tell people, that
people, as they call in the Bottom, you could eat off most
people's floors. They were clean people.
WALLACE: That's a misconception there. A lot of people don't
understand that . . .
BERRY: They . . . they don't. We were clean. People in the
Bottom was clean.
WALLACE: They made special pains to . . .
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . keep their house and their clothes.
BERRY: Painted. And they'd paint. They were clean. We
were all clean people.
WALLACE: What kind of . . . did your mamma insist on an
education for you and . . .
BERRY: Yes. We both finished high school.
WALLACE: Ah.
�
BERRY: My brother did attend college.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BERRY: But he didn't graduate.
WALLACE: Ah. So, where did you start schooling then, at
Clinton Street [School] or . . .
BERRY: Clinton Street [School].
WALLACE: Can you descri- . . . nobody's ever told me much
about that school. Where is it on Clinton?
BERRY: It's, uh, on Clinton Street near . . . did you ever
know about the prison?
WALLACE: Yeah, I know about the prison.
BERRY: It was down below the prison on the very end, almost
. . . this road over here, when you're right here by Bonded
Garage, that road went into the playground, on to the school.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
BERRY: Like this, umhumm.
WALLACE: All right, then; and that was . . . was the building
itself about where First Baptist about where First Baptist is?
BERRY: It was a . . . it's past First Baptist.
WALLACE: Baptist, okay.
BERRY: Oh, yes, because, see, the prison was right across
the street from the First Baptist Church.
WALLACE: Church, yeah.
�
BERRY: And our first church was down there behind the . . .
by the prison wall, First Baptist Church.
WALLACE: Oh, really?
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: I didn't realize it. You mean, right adjacent to the
prison?
BERRY: Yes. We . . . our first Baptist Church wasn't there.
It was down be- . . . Alton Street, a little church. I have seen
pictures. I don't know who would have a picture of that.
WALLACE: I'd be very interested in seeing a picture.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Very interested. So, when did you switch over to
going to Mayo-Underwood, then?
BERRY: When the school was becoming dilapidated, that's when
. . . it was '29 [1929] or whenever they started building on
Mayo-Underwood, because I finished in 1930.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
BERRY: And, then, there was . . . we went there in '29
[1929] and I finished in '30 [1930].
WALLACE: So, you really attended Mayo-Underwood for just about
a year.
BERRY: Oh, a year. That's all, a year.
WALLACE: Umhumm. And the name Mayo-Underwood, can you tell me
�
about Dr. Mayo and . . .
BERRY: Well, he was the principal of Clinton Street School.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
BERRY: Dr. . . . and he was Mayo and, of course, the
Underwood was a doctor, Dr. Underwood.
WALLACE: All right. He was a long-time physician [inaudible].
BERRY: Yeah, physician. Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . around here. Well, as a young girl growing up
in the Bottom, what kinds of things would you do for recreation?
Did you have a place to go or . . .
BERRY: We played in the streets. We played ball. We played
marbles. Kids played . . . girls played marbles, as well as the
boys. And we played games and was all kinds of games that the
older children played that allowed . . . they didn't allow the
younger children because they were kind of rough.
WALLACE: Rough, yeah.
BERRY: But we had . . . we were just . . . everybody was
congenial, you know; umhumm.
WALLACE: Could you play on the sand bar? Some of the boys
mentioned the sand bar was just . . .
BERRY: Well, the sand bar came later. When Mayo-Underwood
School came down there, they . . . the sand bar, then, was down
there. Now, on Wilkinson Street, I guess they told you about the
�
Fallises, John Fallis.
WALLACE: Yes.
BERRY: Well, as I was telling the girlfriend a few minutes
ago . . . we reminisce quite a bit. I used to . . . because a
lot of my people lived on Wilkinson Street, I played with more
white children than I did with colored children because we all
played together.
WALLACE: Well, that's a question I wanted to ask you. Bottom,
there was whites living in Bottom.
BERRY: They was whites living there, and we . . . everybody
was friendly. The whites would take up for the black. Nobody
didn't come in there and do anything because you had protection.
WALLACE: Everybody looked out for everybody.
BERRY: They, every one, looked out for each other.
WALLACE: Would it be fair to say that most of the folk who
lived down there were poor?
BERRY: A lot of them were poor and they . . . well, like you
say, they scratched for a living. You did anything and some of
them, they had distillery jobs. Some of them was porters. They
worked in drug stores. But, then, just like it's still now, they
bootlegged just like that was their living.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Bootlegging.
�
WALLACE: Yeah, I remember a woman that's been . . . Nannie
Oliver.
BERRY: Yes, she was here.
WALLACE: Was mentioned that, you know, she made some money
that way. And, well, Fallis was a bootlegger, too.
BERRY: Oh, Fallis was a big bootlegger; but he was . . . he
was good to black people.
WALLACE: I've heard so many people say that.
BERRY: He was so good.
WALLACE: Did . . . did you meet him, or . . .
BERRY: Sure, I knew him. I played with his children.
WALLACE: Oh, Bixie [Benjamin] and Carlos?
BERRY: Bixie [Benjamin], sure. Bixie [Benjamin], I'd
recall, was older. And there was Lassie. That was one of the
boys, Lassie.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: I can't think of the girl's name right now, but we
played together.
WALLACE: Ah; so, you . . .
BERRY: And Chester Snellings and the Snellings, they all
lived there. I was telling the girl a few minutes ago that I
can't recall who had an alligator in the yard up under the house
and I said . . . my mother would have killed me today, if she
�
knew it. I said we would jump in there. The alligator would
snap at us, and we would just jump out before he would grab us.
[Laughter - Wallace]
WALLACE: You mean, had a real, live alligator?
BERRY: Yeah, a real alligator; yes.
WALLACE: Good grief. [Laughing]
BERRY: And we would do that, and we played together; and I
was tell- . . . we was talking about, reminiscing, I said,
Chester had a restaurant up on Broadway and he would get these
tickets to the Derby. I said, every year, he would come by and
give me a ticket. I didn't have to pay to go up there because we
was still friends.
WALLACE: Chester Snelling? Yeah.
BERRY: We were still friends. And when he would see me on
the street. He'd say, "Mary Helen." And we would just stand
there. And I tell you, Ben Conway . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Well, Ben Conway, I haven't seen him. I don't know
whether Ben Conway's still living or not.
WALLACE: I have no idea. He was . . .
BERRY: He . . .
WALLACE: He's not . . . he's not the police chief, was he?
That was Conaway.
�
BERRY: Well, now, he might be related to him.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
BERRY: But Ben Conway worked in a grocery store, Alonzo
Lewis' [Alonzo A. Lewis] grocery store.
WALLACE: Yeah. I've heard of Alonzo Lewis' . . .
BERRY: Well, then, he . . . they were nice people. And,
see, they catered to all the people in that area.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, you had mentioned not having anything
in the way of an automobile.
BERRY: Umm.
WALLACE: How did you get around, bicycle or . . .
BERRY: We walked.
WALLACE: Walked everywhere.
BERRY: We . . . everybody walked.
WALLACE: So, you had to live close to where you worked.
BERRY: You had to. You had to live close. I don't know,
people didn't pay no attention to walking, because . . . we were
talking about the weather, they had snows, now. And this heat
now people are raising sand about, it was always a hundred most
of the time.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And you didn't have screens or anything in your
window. You didn't have flies because people were clean. And
�
you didn't pay no attention to it. People now are just living
and they can't take nothing, can't stand it.
WALLACE: Well, we're so spoiled and used to all the
conveniences.
BERRY: This is it.
WALLACE: I imagine you all didn't have a refrigerator in your
home, did you?
BERRY: No. A ice box.
WALLACE: Ah. So, you had to go get ice from . . .
BERRY: Ice all the time. And . . .
WALLACE: . . . Fred Sutterlin's ice house.
BERRY: Fred Sutterlin and, uh, our coal.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Because, my mother . . . we had our sleds. She would
put the tub on the sled and my mother, they knew us, and he would
say to the men working, "Throw two or three extra lumps." And
you would get a tub of coal for a quarter.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
BERRY: And, ice . . .
WALLACE: Be enough to get you through maybe a week?
BERRY: A week. A week, umhumm.
WALLACE: And you probably had to get groceries every other
day, or two or three days?
�
BERRY: Well, my mother ran a bill at Alonzo Lewis' grocery,
and, uh, we . . . all the children . . . you know, children go
get the baloney or gooseliver or something like that, or jelly.
WALLACE: Somebody else told me that it was real important to
have credit, for businessmen to . . .
BERRY: Yes, yes.
WALLACE: . . . let you have credit.
BERRY: They let you have credit. All you had to do was tell
who you worked for.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: My mother would work for the Averills. They knew it,
Mr. Averill. And my mother, since she was a good cook, she
started making bread and things, and I had to peddle them. And
most of my . . . all of my customers were white people. When
they say, "Little girl, who made this?" I said, "My mother."
"Well, who is your mother?" I said, "She work for Mr. Marvin
Averill." That's all I would have to say and, boy, when the food
was all over, that's the way my mother dressed my brother and I
and that's why we was able to live better.
WALLACE: Selling that bread.
BERRY: Selling the bread. [Inaudible] . . . she made . . .
WALLACE: Were your customers down in the Bottom or did you
sell in South Frankfort or . . .
�
BERRY: No. They was all Clinton Street, all the, uh . . . I
tell you who was one of the . . . I can't think of the man name.
He worked at the drug store, and the . . . Shoate's, I think,
their names. They lived on . . . They were all white and
good-living. They would buy. And, then, they would have friends
and, on, uh, Ann Street, all in that area where the white people
lived, good-living white people, that's where my trade was, to
them.
WALLACE: Ah. So, you would go door-to-door and . . .
BERRY: Yes, peddling; but, after that, it didn't take it
long because our names was established and they were, "Little
girl, get me some of that bread I hear about." I said, "Which
kind, the brown bread or the nut bread?" "How are you selling
them?" I would tell them. "I want a loaf of each one." And my
mother would . . . sometimes, I would have . . . be in there
working with her because that's the way I learned to cook.
WALLACE: So, she would cook up that bread in her kitchen and,
then . . .
BERRY: Yes, yes. Yes.
WALLACE: Ah. How old were you when you were selling the
bread?
BERRY: Well, I was . . .
WALLACE: . . . were you going to school?
�
BERRY: Yes, we were going to school. I was about . . . I
wasn't in high school. I was about nine or ten, something like
that.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: You were pretty young and having to help make it
better, to make ends meet.
BERRY: Well, children had to do that. My brother would
deliver clothes for people because all [those who] lived in that
area, they did laundry work for the rich white people. And I
would go along because my brother, he was oldest, but he was no
fighter. I was a fighter. [Laughing] And I had to take up for
him when them old bigger boys would take the money from him.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: See, boys, always some scampers standing around,
rather . . . that don't want to work, would take it . . .
WALLACE: So, you got to protect your brother from them.
BERRY: Yeah. Protect my brother, yeah.
WALLACE: What's . . . as a youngster growing up, was Bottom a
violent place?
BERRY: No.
WALLACE: I mean, did you have to be afraid for your children,
letting them play in the street?
�
BERRY: No. Uh-uh. Only thing you had to be afraid of was
the horses and, sometime, the horse would get wild. And, then,
they would have this day called County Court Day. Did anybody
describe that?
WALLACE: No, nobody's ever told me about County Court Day.
BERRY: County Court Day was always on a Monday. And these
people . . . this is called because . . . County Court, they
would come with the cows and the horses and they would put them
on down on Clinton Street and down there off of Wilkinson Street.
That's where they do all . . . they would sell all these . . .
their stock.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
BERRY: And that's when people were afraid. They would . . .
lit- . . . children because the people came. They were all
white. They would be drinking. They would be rough and, then,
I'm going to say it like it is. Lower end of Clinton Street,
that's where they had a lot of assignation houses.
WALLACE: You mean red light?
BERRY: Red light. That's what you call assignation houses.
And these men, it's all they would come . . . I don't know where
they come from, the country or where. But they would get drunk
and you could see the people there because they would have the
money.
�
WALLACE: Money, yeah.
BERRY: And they would sell their wares.
WALLACE: Go waste it on women and booze and whatever.
BERRY: Umhumm. Yeah. Umhumm. That's the only time we
would be afraid because those in that area . . . but where I
lived, I had friends on Clinton Street. I wasn't allowed to go
around there . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: . . . during that period because, if a cow or
something stampede, you'd be in the throe, yeah.
WALLACE: Oh, yeah. You'd get hurt bad.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Well, that's . . . I've heard that . . . so many
people have told me that violence came into the community, not
out of it. People came in . . .
BERRY: Came in . . .
WALLACE: . . . got liquored up and they fought . . .
BERRY: That was it. That was it.
WALLACE: And they'd go to a joint and maybe get blitzed and,
then . . . then, there'd be trouble.
BERRY: There'd be trouble, umhumm.
WALLACE: But, otherwise, some people have said, "We never had
a lock on our door. We never locked it."
�
BERRY: We didn't know what it was to lock your door. You
didn't know what it was to have a screen. You could go to bed.
You could go anywhere, go out of town, those who was able to go
out of town. You would come back. Your house would be just like
you would leave it. You didn't have no robbers or anything like
that. Everyone looked out for each other.
WALLACE: Well, and the houses were . . .
BERRY: Close.
WALLACE: . . . close together . . .
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: And there was a . . . people have told me there was a
neighborliness.
BERRY: It was. It was a togetherness. Everybody was
together.
WALLACE: What brought them together, just being poor or being
close?
BERRY: Being poor. Well, it was just . . . it was just like
. . . I don't know what you would call it. Just say . . . we
just like a . . . one big family. Everyone knew each other and
we just close. We'd stand . . . and, then, it's like this hot
weather. You didn't have no electric. People would sit out on
their porch till it would cool off and they would talk to each
other till eleven and you . . . it would just be fun to hear them
�
say, "Well," . . . my mother's name was Mary Emily . . . "Mary
Emily, it's time to go in. I think we can go to bed." You had
fans or, [if] you didn't have fans, you had newspaper. You done
pleat it, to make a fan. And that's the way people enjoyed
themselves.
WALLACE: Sit out on the stoop and . . .
BERRY: Sit out on the . . .
WALLACE: . . . talk and share and . . .
BERRY: Share. All the corners, women would come from the
church or when they'd get off from work, they would meet on the
corner and share the news. And it would be fun.
WALLACE: Right.
BERRY: The kids would be sitting there. You wasn't allowed
to, like the children today, take the conversation away from the
adults. You had to be quiet.
WALLACE: And, so, the ladies would gather on a corner and just
sort of . . .
BERRY: Umhumm. Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . review what happened during the day.
BERRY: That's right, umhumm.
WALLACE: Well, one of the things, uh, "Papa Jazz", in an
article he did in the newspaper, said, "We knew more about what
was going on in white society than the whites . . . [laughter]
�
BERRY: That's true.
WALLACE: . . . because we were there in their homes and we . .
.
BERRY: It was true, because you saw what was going on.
WALLACE: And I think that sort of irked him, that people
talked bad about the people in the Bottom, when the people in the
Bottom knew a lot of stuff that was going on . . .
BERRY: Umhumm. Listen to what I forgot to say. My auntie
worked in an assignation house and, uh, she was crippled and she
was my mother's oldest sister. And, as a child, I went into a
trunk, I never saw such beautiful jewelry. And I said, "Mom,
whose beautiful jewelry is this?" She told me. And I said,
"Where did", we called her 'Sis', I said, "Where did 'Sis' get
this?" She said, "From where she worked." Because, at that
time, I didn't know what a assignation house was. I said, "Where
she work?" She says, "Well, the people be in a hurry. They
leave." She didn't want to come around and tell this child what
it was all about.
WALLACE: All about.
BERRY: And, of course, they had too much to drink. They
would be afraid to come back and ask, "Did I leave my watch? Did
I leave my pick?" I'm telling you, there was some beautiful
jewelry.
�
WALLACE: Yeah. Let me be sure I'm pronoun- . . . assignation?
BERRY: A-s-g-i-n-a-t-i-o-n. Assignation house.
WALLACE: Okay. Well, let me ask you. Everyone that I've
talked to has a nickname, and it seems it's important that you
have a nickname.
BERRY: I hated them.
WALLACE: You hated them?
BERRY: I hate nicknames, because . . .
WALLACE: All right, "Corn Pudding", "Doughbelly".
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: "Black Cat".
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: "Shineboy".
BERRY: I . . . I didn't like them because, a lot of time,
people die, you never did know their real name.
WALLACE: Well, nobody can tell me "Shineboy's" name. Nobody
remembered what his name is. Uh, "Doughbelly", they don't
remember what "Doughbelly's" name is. And I just can't think of
. . .
BERRY: Now, the one lady, she would . . . she should know
what "Doughbelly's" name because she lived there in his house.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: Mintie Martin. Mintie Martin.
�
WALLACE: Mindy Martin.
BERRY: M-i-n-t-i-e, Mintie. Mintie Martin.
WALLACE: Mintie. Mintie Martin.
BERRY: Because, uh, they lived in "Doughbelly's" house.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Well, I might . . . I'm still collecting names of
people to talk to.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: But that's so funny that . . . it's almost like a
nickname that sets you apart; but, if you want to part of the
crowd, you've got to have a nickname.
BERRY: Well, a lot of these nicknames came from because
whatever you portrayed.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Now, "Papa Jazz", I think . . . I don't know where he
got that. I don't know whether he liked jazz music or something.
I never did know why he got it. But, see, when we all grew up
together, I called him "Brother", just like his sisters, because
we all were close.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you about the name Craw. You have a
whole different theory on how the name came about . . .
BERRY: Umhumm. Yeah.
�
WALLACE: . . . than anybody else.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Can you tell me your theory on what Craw came from,
the name?
BERRY: Well, it's like I said that they said it was a man
named Craw that owned, just like John Buckner, owned a lot of
homes in Craw. They say, "Go to Craw and he will find you a
house." And that's what they say, that's where it came from.
And, then, when these crawfish would come up, that's where he got
it.
WALLACE: Well, do the people who lived down there, did they
tend to use the name Craw, or did they call it Bottom or did they
have a preference?
BERRY: We called . . . we called . . . we called it Bottom
because of them resented the word Craw after we heard so many
slander remarks.
WALLACE: See, I . . . I made the mistake of using the word
Craw with, uh, Annie Mae McClain.
BERRY: Well, she's touchy.
WALLACE: Oh, boy . . .
BERRY: She's very touchy.
WALLACE: . . . and she ripped me a new one.
BERRY: She's touchy.
�
WALLACE: And I . . . we . . . we . . . we patched it up. She
told me, uh . . .
BERRY: Well, she's a [inaudible] person anyhow, [inaudible].
WALLACE: Well, she, uh, she wrote me a three-page letter and
she wrote a very . . . she said, "I remember as a girl that the
whites would come in early in the morning with their laundry . .
.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . in the car, and they'd honk the horn. They
wouldn't even come to your door. They'd honk the horn.
BERRY: You'd have to go get it, you know.
WALLACE: And, then, they'd . . . you knew what time they was
coming back.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: And, then, they'd . . . and she remembers people
coming to collect the rent.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: As a little girl. This white lady that was real . .
. dressed real fancy . . .
BERRY: Yeah. Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . would come by and get the rent.
BERRY: Yes. Uh-huh.
WALLACE: So, we . . . but I learned right then that I'd better
�
be careful about using the word Craw.
BERRY: Well, I don't pay no attention to it because it
doesn't bother me because I didn't call myself living in Craw.
Craw was a area from Clin- . . . from Broadway down . . . Mero
Street wasn't in the Craw area.
WALLACE: See, that's another thing. Can you sort of define
Craw, boundaries of it?
BERRY: Craw was . . . I would say, from . . . from Mero up
to Washington Street and a certain area of Clinton Street. That
was the Craw. From Wilkinson Street over to Washingt- . . .
well, let's see. Then, it was . . . no, it wasn't Gaines' All- .
. . I can't think of that little street. Madison Street, that
was where Craw ended.
WALLACE: Okay. And the rest of it was the Bottom, really,
wasn't it?
BERRY: No. Craw and Bottom were the same.
WALLACE: Okay. See, that's another thing some people don't
agree on. I . . . Mr. Anthony Thomas . . .
BERRY: Well, everybody . . .
WALLACE: Tony Thomas, Anthony Thomas. White guy, old white
guy.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: He said, "Well, Craw is one thing; but, when you get
�
over to Blanton and Mero, and you outside the Craw, then," he
said. You're . . .
BERRY: Well, maybe they did; but we just say in the Bottom.
Any time we'd go, my mother would say, "Where you going?" I'd
say, "I'm going up to the Bottom." And we'd said up in the
Bottom.
WALLACE: Up in the Bottom.
BERRY: In the Bottom.
WALLACE: Well, that's . . . I'd never heard the story about a
man named Craw. When would he have been around, at the turn of
the century?
BERRY: Turn of the century, because I didn't know. That's
all I heard was, old . . .
WALLACE: You never met him or anything?
BERRY: Oh, no. I did not because, after that, before John
Buckner, it was . . . I did know Dulin Moss.
WALLACE: You knew Dulin?
BERRY: Yes, but . . .
WALLACE: Nobody I ever talked to yet knew . . .
BERRY: Well, see, Dulin Moss, we lived in his home.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: Yes. Now, he was . . . worked for the State Journal.
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
BERRY: And he was a kind-like person, very.
WALLACE: Yeah, I've heard good thoughts toward him.
BERRY: Good thoughts. I . . . Mr. Dulin Moss would go to
bat for you and he was just nice. I don't care what nobody said,
Dulin Moss was a nice man.
WALLACE: See, the other side of that coin, some say, "Well, he
didn't keep his places up."
BERRY: Well, he did not; but he was a carpenter and he would
and knock a nail in there and do for you. But he was fair. Now,
to us, now . . . I don't know because we didn't . . . we never
owed him. Now, you see, there was another thing that, you owe
somebody, they'll have something to say.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Lot of people try to beat you.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: My mother and I, we believed in paying our bills.
That's what . . .
WALLACE: So, you never got into any cross-purposes with Mr.
Moss.
BERRY: No.
WALLACE: Let me ask. As far as when you got out of school,
what was your aspiration? What did you hope to do when you got
out of school?
�
BERRY: Well, I had always wanted to be a stenographer and,
then, my aspir- . . . well, I had wanted to be, first, a dancer
because I danced for years, ballerina.
WALLACE: Humm.
BERRY: Because I was very tight-jointed and that's what I
wanted to be. Then, I says if I couldn't be that, I would be a
stenographer. Then, I . . . my next was a beautician, and that's
what . . . and I lined it up.
WALLACE: How did you get into the beautician work?
BERRY: Well, as a child, I always liked to go and I learned
to do hair.
WALLACE: Who taught you how to do that?
BERRY: My mamma. I saw how she fixed my hair and I . . . I
learned to do it and, then, the kids would trust me and, then, I
. . . was making money. And I . . . we laugh about it now. I
said . . . was a curl called twist curl, we'd do that for 15 or
30 cents, and we'd get your hair pressed because you had to wash
your own hair, that would be thir- . . . I said, "Man, I wish
somebody would come in and ask me to curl their hair, all
prissy." For that price.
WALLACE: Did you have your own beautician shop or . . .
BERRY: We didn't have no shops, but it wasn't like it is
today because there wasn't no licensed beautician.
�
WALLACE: Oh, you didn't . . . you just did it.
BERRY: We could just do, because I was a child; going to
school, making money.
WALLACE: You were doing beautician work while you were still
going to school.
BERRY: Yeah, I wa- . . . yeah, I was going to school. I was
doing the work and going to school. Kids would come on a
Saturday and get their haircuts.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
BERRY: Yeah. I was making money to go to the picture show.
Picture show was only a dime then, and . . . and anything else I
wanted to do.
WALLACE: So, uh, you were working out of your home, then, I
guess.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: As far as, uh, dating and, uh, going out with
fellows, did your mamma have some strong, hard and fast rules
about . . .
BERRY: Yes. She had . . . all parents then, children were
really brought up. Those children were just like children today.
There's always a loose bunch and there was children who obeyed
their parents.
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
BERRY: We . . . my mother was strictly religious. We had to
go to church, and they . . . well, I had a boyfriend; if he
didn't like the church, I didn't keep him, because he had to go
to church with me.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: And . . .
WALLACE: He had to approve of your church?
BERRY: He had . . . yes. He had to come to church.
WALLACE: Where did you all go to church?
BERRY: First Baptist.
WALLACE: First Baptist.
BERRY: First Baptist.
WALLACE: Okay. Uh, were there women's organizations in the
church?
BERRY: Yes. They had organization for children.
WALLACE: What kind of . . .
BERRY: They had . . . well, they had a BTU, Junior BTU.
They had children's Sunday School classes. Because I . . . I
started . . . it was a lady across the street, Ms. Jane Condy
[Conda], she worked in the church. I been going to the Sunday
School since I was four years old.
WALLACE: Good grief.
BERRY: Yes. She carried me. And, as I tell children today,
�
wasn't allowed to chew chewing gum and look back. When you
there, you . . . and I was reading when I was four because my
mother taught us.
WALLACE: So, she educated you in the home as well as . . .
BERRY: Yes, yes.
WALLACE: . . . going to sc- . . .
BERRY: Yes, she did.
WALLACE: Your mamma was an educated woman, then.
BERRY: Well, no; but she just made it that we weren't going
to be stupid. Now, my brother being older, when he would get his
lesson, I would sit there and listen and I would get in with him.
And I would learn it along with him.
WALLACE: So, your mother really took a lot of extra time and
care.
BERRY: Oh, my mother, she was a mother.
WALLACE: Yeah, a true mother in every sense of the word.
BERRY: Mother, yes.
WALLACE: Well, when you think about your involvement in the
church, was the church a social center for the community?
BERRY: It was.
WALLACE: How did it serve in that capacity?
BERRY: Well, you . . . you had . . . we had programs.
Always was something to do. When we would leave Clinton Street
�
School, was always some kind of program for the children. We
would stop by . . . our parents knew . . . and practice. Always
something going on.
WALLACE: Like a play or . . .
BERRY: A play or a program for the church. And we . . .
there was always something for the children to do.
WALLACE: Could women take leadership roles in the church?
BERRY: Oh, they'd better. They always . . .
WALLACE: Like ushering or something?
BERRY: They, uh . . . the ladies filled, yes.
WALLACE: Yeah. See, it's so funny. I'm a Baptist. I go to
the church right down here, Memorial Baptist.
BERRY: Oh, you do?
WALLACE: But women, they don't allow women to . . . to usher
or be a deacon or . . .
BERRY: Sure enou- . . . well.
WALLACE: Did you all have women serving in those capacities?
BERRY: No, no deacons; but we had women ushers.
WALLACE: Ushers.
BERRY: But we had women that was head, presidents of clubs,
that presided.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: But I don't believe in women preachers or women
�
deacons.
WALLACE: Oh, really?
BERRY: I don't. Because I . . . I'm just particular because
I was stricken by the Bible. I think that's a man's job.
WALLACE: Yeah. What were some of the other churches that were
down in there? Corinthian Baptist.
BERRY: Corinthian Baptist on Mero Street and, then, there
was always the holiness church, and that . . .
WALLACE: Where was that?
BERRY: The holiness church, when I . . . when my auntie kept
me, it was Mas- . . . it was on Clinton Street there. It was two
doors. It was a grocery store then. This lady was a lady
preacher.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BERRY: And it was a holiness church. And, then, they moved
from there on [to] the corner of Clinton and Washington Street.
WALLACE: The lady who was the preacher, do you remember her
name by chance?
BERRY: Well, the first lady preacher I remember, we called
her Sister Lizzie.
WALLACE: Sister Lizzie. Black woman?
BERRY: Oh, yes. We had all of them blacks, yes.
WALLACE: Ah, okay. And . . .
�
BERRY: And then, another . . . later on, it was a lady named
Sister Lizzie . . . uh, Sister Ross.
WALLACE: When . . . when were Sister Lizzie and Sister Ross
heading the church, do you remember?
BERRY: I was nothing but a child, not even a teenager. They
. . . all this happened years ago.
WALLACE: Maybe, late teens [1910's], nineteen- . . .
BERRY: Late teens [1910's] or twenties [1920's], something
around in there.
WALLACE: Now, would this church have been synonymous with the
same church as Bethel Temple? Or is that a different . . .
BERRY: Well, a lot of . . . I think Bethel Temple came from
. . . from this because all we just knew as children, it was
holiness church.
WALLACE: Holiness church.
BERRY: It was holiness church. Yeah. We didn't know
whether there was a name to it or not, but it was holiness
church.
WALLACE: Someone told me that they'd get a lot of preachers
and evangelists to come down in the Bottom and go from house to
house, talking and preaching and . . .
BERRY: Well, they would have Jehovah Witness that would do
that. Now, they were the ones . . . and, then, just like on
�
Saturdays, the Salvation people would come there on Clinton and
Washington Street and hold service.
WALLACE: Where, uh . . . was there a vacant lot there?
BERRY: No. On the corner.
WALLACE: On the corner.
BERRY: On the corner. There would . . .
WALLACE: Several people have told me they remember the band.
There would be a Salvation Army band.
BERRY: Yeah, Salvation Army, and they reali- . . . they
called it. I guess, they probably was . . .
[Interruption in tape]
BERRY: . . . or whatever it was. And they would come there.
[End of Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
WALLACE: . . . like a soaked hog. And you say they would
actually get a collection from the folks down there?
BERRY: Yeah. They sure . . . they would . . . they played
and had a . . . go around, a tambourine, what do you call it, and
they would put money in it, yes. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you a few other things here on, uh,
as far as, uh, marriage, were most of the young ladies encouraged
to formalize their relationships, or was it acceptable if a man
just lived with you and you didn't have to go through . . .
�
BERRY: Well, that was a part of my life that I wouldn't . .
. I never was a meddlesome person. I just . . . whatever I saw,
I accepted it. Yes. And, uh, I didn't see too much . . . well,
I guess, day . . . I realized as I got older that these people
weren't married; but, as a child, my mother . . . I tell you, she
tried to keep us away from that.
WALLACE: Was it a stigma if a gal was living with a fellow?
Did the community sort of frown on it?
BERRY: No. They didn't ostracize them or anything like
that, and the only stigma was when a girl would come up pregnant.
WALLACE: And had no husband.
BERRY: No husband. And, then . . . I hate to say this. I
hope all this is not being recorded . . . they would do away,
abort.
WALLACE: Yes.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Well, that's . . . I haven't really discussed some
things because I felt like they might be too sensitive, would
bring up . . .
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . hurtful memories.
BERRY: Sure.
WALLACE: But I'm sure that there are physicians who would help
�
or . . .
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Or, maybe, a mid-wife.
BERRY: Mid-wife or . . .
WALLACE: Were mid-wives common? Did they . . . have gals that
everybody turned to?
BERRY: Well, seemingly . . . I never did understand because,
uh, I . . . well, you know, like I say, my mother kept us from a
lot of this. It took me years before I realized what was going
on when they . . . one would say, "Oh, she's out of school. She
has a cold," because we was . . . cold winters and all children
suffered.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BERRY: And I didn't realize until I was out of school what
was going on.
WALLACE: Yeah. They might be with child.
BERRY: Yeah, that's what . . . what it was. I found out
later.
WALLACE: Well, let, uh . . . let me go on here a little bit.
Uh, when you got married . . .
BERRY: I never did marry.
WALLACE: Oh.
BERRY: Never.
�
WALLACE: I'm sorry.
BERRY: No, never been married.
WALLACE: I guess, somehow, I hooked you up with John Berry.
BERRY: No.
WALLACE: Okay. That was my mistake. Okay.
BERRY: Yeah. Uh-uh.
WALLACE: I had to . . . I'm sorry. [Laughter] I got you
mixed up. My . . . my problem. Uh, when a gal did get married,
were they encouraged to have sort of a formal wedding ceremony at
a church?
BERRY: No. They weren't able to have that back then. They
just got married.
WALLACE: Justice of the Peace?
BERRY: The Peace, or the preacher.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And, uh, they would go to the preacher's house, and,
uh, the preacher come to their home and performed the ceremony.
And that was back . . . there wasn't not big out-do wedding,
unless you had the money.
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, let me . . . let me ask you. Did . . .
I heard that people like the grandparents and relatives would
live, maybe, in the same building with them, in an apartment, or
live in the next house or . . .
�
BERRY: Well, next door, [inaudible].
WALLACE: Did the extended families live close together?
BERRY: Well, now, my grandmother, we lived in a radius right
. . . we all . . . it was a community thing.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: If my mother lived here, my grandmother lived around
the corner. You know, something like that.
WALLACE: I know several people have said when urban removal
came through and everybody had to scatter, big families went
everywhere, you know it?
BERRY: Everywhere.
WALLACE: They just couldn't stay together like they used to.
BERRY: That's right.
WALLACE: Umm, let me mention some names of women that people
have passed . . . I don't know very much about these women. If
any of the names stick with you or you have a remembrance, if you
would share it, it would help. Anne Graham.
BERRY: Well, she's . . . well, now, she's with her sons now,
you know.
WALLACE: Lives with Paul, doesn't she?
BERRY: No, Jimmy.
WALLACE: She lives with Jimmy?
BERRY: Lives with Jimmy.
�
WALLACE: Somebody told me she had had a stroke and wasn't in
the best of health.
BERRY: Yes. She's not in the best . . . Anne had a heart
condition and, so, she's living with her son, Jimmy, out in, uh .
. . I don't know where he lives.
WALLACE: I think I may have saw her. When I interviewed
Jimmy, I saw an elderly black woman there on the couch watching
television.
BERRY: Well, that was . . . that's . . .
WALLACE: That was probably Anne.
BERRY: That was Anne, umhumm.
WALLACE: But they said she used to be a seamstress that . . .
BERRY: Seamstress. She worked at the Kathryn Shoppe, and
she could really sew.
WALLACE: Yeah. Everybody would come to her for alterations .
. .
BERRY: Yeah. Yes, umhumm. Yes, umhumm.
WALLACE: She'd know what kind of dress you liked and, if you
came in, she'd, you know, hold . . .
BERRY: Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Ms. Ruby Jackson.
BERRY: Oh, that's . . . uh, Ruby Handy.
WALLACE: Handy?
�
BERRY: Yeah, Ruby Handy. Yes, she was a friend of the
family.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Okay. What, uh . . . do you have any remembrances of
her, if she . . .
BERRY: Well, she ran with my auntie. She was a very loving,
caring person and she's out of . . . her descendents were mostly
Indians. She was a descendant of the Indian.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: Indian family.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: Because as a child, every time you turn around, my
grandmother would say, "Now, go around to Mary Handy's. So-and-
so has passed." And I'd go around there and there'd be an Indian
laying up in the coffin with his regalia on. [Laughter -
Wallace] And I was afraid. I was afraid of dead people then,
but I just knew that they were . . . was an Indian.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: And they had on this . . .
WALLACE: So, she had a lot of Indian blood in her.
BERRY: Really a lot of Indian blood. They looked like
Indians.
�
WALLACE: She was a friend of your aunt's, you say?
BERRY: Yes, my auntie's. They ran together.
WALLACE: Ah. Uh, Mamma Bryant.
BERRY: Yes, uh-huh. That's where Annie Mary . . . she
reared Annie Mary.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Then, that's where I got Mamma Bryant's name from.
BERRY: Yes. Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: She was supposedly a woman who, I guess like you just
said, took people in and took care of them.
BERRY: Well, she had all the children. Now, her children,
you . . . you mentioned the name Will Castelman [William S.
Castleman].
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: One of her daughters married Will Castelman [William
S. Castleman].
WALLACE: Uh-huh. Okay.
BERRY: And, then, uh, one of them was married to "Squeezer"
Brown, one of her daughters.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BERRY: And, so, she was a good church worker and she cared
for people. She was a Goodson.
�
WALLACE: Are either of those daughters alive?
BERRY: Oh, Lord, no.
WALLACE: They've gone on.
BERRY: All of them gone, yes.
WALLACE: Gone on.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: What about Ida Howard?
BERRY: Oh, Ida was white.
WALLACE: Yeah, she's a white girl.
BERRY: Yeah, she was white.
WALLACE: Well, she was a woman of questionable reputation.
BERRY: She was one of the ladies of the night.
WALLACE: Yes.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: She ran with Fallis and . . .
BERRY: She ran with Fallis and she struck it good. She
bought a home out on East Main and a lot of my black friends out
there was talking about it. She was a good neighbor.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: She wo- . . . because she lived around the corner
from us and, uh, she was just nice.
WALLACE: It's funny that even though a person might be mixed
up in . . . in something that society has passed judgment on,
�
like gambling or bootlegging or prostitution, I've heard people
say favorable things about these people.
BERRY: These people were nice. There was two other
outstanding prostitutes down there. They was called, uh . . .
oh, I can't think of their names right tonight, but they were
nice to colored people.
WALLACE: They were white gals?
BERRY: They were. They were white. And, uh, they would
just stop and they always had something nice to say to you.
WALLACE: So, they were pretty much a part of the community.
BERRY: They were part of everything.
WALLACE: And accepted and not ostracized.
BERRY: Because they knew they were . . . I tell you, I hate
to say this. They brought their stuff down in the black area . .
.
WALLACE: Oh.
BERRY: . . . because they knew they could not live what they
were doing in the better area. If they were making money.
WALLACE: Yes.
BERRY: If they were making money. But we didn't pay no
attention because, long as they took care of their business, it
didn't bother us none. And they were nice to children and
everything.
�
WALLACE: Now, that's . . . that's sort of a pleasant thing to
me. I don't sense a lot of judgment . . .
BERRY: No.
WALLACE: . . . being passed on people . . .
BERRY: No.
WALLACE: . . . because maybe you were doing something society
considered wrong.
BERRY: That's your business. You have to live with that
yourself.
WALLACE: Nell Sullivan, ran Sullivan's grocery.
BERRY: Yes, Nell. She . . . she . . . she lived around here
on, uh, Ann Street before she passed.
WALLACE: Oh, she's gone on now.
BERRY: Yeah. I think Nell is gone. She was . . .
WALLACE: Was she a black gal?
BERRY: No, she was white.
WALLACE: She's white.
BERRY: Heavy-set and white. Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Ms. Helen Holmes.
BERRY: Oh, Helen Holmes?
WALLACE: Yes. She's still with us, now.
BERRY: Yeah, but I don't see where she would come in.
WALLACE: Well, she doesn't . . . well, I . . . these are just
�
names of people.
BERRY: Yes, uh-huh.
WALLACE: She was a leader.
BERRY: She was a leader, but, uh, see, she . . . she didn't
have no parts up this area.
WALLACE: She didn't live down there.
BERRY: No. She came here, living on East Main, wherever she
lived. I never did know where the lady lived.
WALLACE: I guess the reason I mentioned her is . . . it may
have been Henry Sanders, I can't remember, said she was connected
with the NAACP chapter.
BERRY: Yes, she was. She was with them because Henry worked
with them. I used to work with them, too; but, uh . . . I used
to attend the meetings, rather; but Henry worked with the NAACP.
WALLACE: Well, since Ron . . . did . . . did you participate
in any of the activities of the young people when they'd go to
the restaurants and try to get service or go up to the pool and
try to . . .
BERRY: No. I didn't believe in that.
WALLACE: The integration.
BERRY: I didn't believe it. I says, this . . . you know,
I'm funny, I tell you. I said, "If they don't want you, don't
push, because that's where you going to have the wall."
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And I said . . . because when they went to the
restaurants, and I have seen them sling the stuff at people,
because I had that to happen to me in a store, in the ten cents'
store. The girl stood there and talked, and she saw me standing
there. And the lady was telling her, she said, "You have a
customer." She said, "Let her wait."
WALLACE: Because you were black.
BERRY: I was black; and, so, when I . . . I had what I
wanted. I was going to make a dress. I had some pins and I had
some . . . some thread. So, when I saw the floor walker . . . I
knew her personally. And, uh, so, when the girl finally came
turn, I handed her the thing and, instead of her handing me, she
threw it at me.
WALLACE: How did you react to that?
BERRY: I tell you what I did. I have a temper. I threw my
money. And I had to . . .
WALLACE: Money.
BERRY: I had the correct change and I just threw it. And it
was 30 cents. Some fell on the floor and just then, the floor
walker walked up there. First thing, I thought, she was going to
have me arrested. She said . . . I say, she . . . she said, "I
was looking at you." Said, "You come in here all the time.
�
You're nice. You smile. You always have something pleasant to
say." She said, "She won't do this any more." She reprimanded
her.
WALLACE: So, she stood up for what was right.
BERRY: She stood for right because I was facing the same
thing. I was standing there with a smile and waiting for her to
do and, then, she just snatched them and pitched them. And I
[inaudible].
WALLACE: So, when you encountered prejudice . . . you
mentioned one form that it took. Were there other forms of
prejudice that you encountered, coming from the Bottom and being
black?
BERRY: Well, as I say, you know, I had worked with
[inaudible] before I started being a beautician. I had nursed
different children. And when you work with people that's got
money and nursed, you have a good name.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: And, then, when I would go places . . . and, then, as
my mother had taught us, you pay your bills, you get good service
and get treated right. I would go places, and they would say,
"Oh, I know who you are. You have a good name." I didn't have
too much trouble.
WALLACE: You didn't have trouble, then . . .
�
BERRY: Didn't have too much trouble.
WALLACE: . . . that others might have had.
BERRY: Yes, umhumm.
WALLACE: Uh, Ms. Nellie Harris?
BERRY: Yes. She was a neighbor. Yes.
WALLACE: She worked for a Caruthers.
BERRY: I didn't know she worked for them because I knew Ms.
Nellie and her father, Henry Harris, and everything because he .
. . they had a grocery on Washington Street and he drove a wagon.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
BERRY: Yes. He had a horse and buggy when . . . horse and
riding team.
WALLACE: Grace Sarven, who used to run with a man they called
"Twenty Grand".
BERRY: Don't know of her.
WALLACE: Eva Cox. I'll tell you, I . . . I am not a
judgmental per- . . . we share that. They said Eva would sell
baseball tickets. That's one way she'd make money. She'd go
house to house selling baseball tickets.
BERRY: And, then, she took bets.
WALLACE: She'd take bets on the baseball.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: And . . .
�
BERRY: No. Horses.
WALLACE: On horses. Oh.
BERRY: Yeah, because I played the horses.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: She worked for, uh . . . oh, LaFontaine.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: LaFontaine had a place on, uh, St. Clair Street. And
he had the betting place upstairs, I heard, and she took bets up
there to him.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
BERRY: She could go around and you could tell your bets and
what you want, and she would put the money and take it to him
and, then, if you win, she'd bring your money back to you.
WALLACE: What was the name of his place? Was it a . . . a
honky-tonk or . . .
BERRY: It was . . . no, it was a beer place. It was all I
just knew it by LaFontaine's.
WALLACE: LaFontaine's.
BERRY: LaFontaine's, yes. His family is still over here on
Ann Street.
WALLACE: Oh, really?
BERRY: Uh-huh. Yeah, he . . .
WALLACE: Who is his people?
�
BERRY: They over there. They're in the telephone directory.
WALLACE They're . . . LaFontaine is the name.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Okay. Well, I might give them a holler sometime.
They said Ms. Cox also raised bulldogs.
BERRY: She, uh . . . I didn't look them. I never was in the
house because she wasn't clean. She'd come to your house and you
didn't want her to sit nowhere.
WALLACE: Yeah. They said she wore a rag around her head and .
. .
BERRY: She was just . . . wasn't clean.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: And she was connected with other things that . . .
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . made money, as well.
BERRY: Yes, yes.
WALLACE: Uh, Anna Mae Blackwell. They said John Fallis had a
special friend and sh- . . .
BERRY: That was . . . that was Anna Mae Blackwell, mistress.
WALLACE: Yes.
BERRY: Yes, yes. Well, she moved in our area.
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
BERRY: On Washington Street.
WALLACE: You know R. T. . . .
BERRY: She was so . . .
WALLACE: . . . R. T. Brooks?
BERRY: R. T.?
WALLACE: R. T. Brooks.
BERRY: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: White guy.
BERRY: No, I don't know him.
WALLACE: He married John Fallis' granddaughter. Fallis had
the one daughter.
BERRY: He had one daughter.
WALLACE: She was killed real young in a car accident, but she
had a daughter and this girl married R. T. Brooks, who . . . he
worked at the distillery. He lives out there by Mike Fields, HUD
office.
BERRY: Sure enough? Umhumm.
WALLACE: And he told me that Fallis put his mistress up in the
same house with his wife and would go from one end of the house
to the other. But his wife was a real religious woman, is what
people have told me.
BERRY: She was very friendly. I just . . . I was thinking
about her the other day. She had a beautiful head of hair and
�
she wore these big braids around her head. She looked like a
queen all the time. She would . . . just carried herself
graceful.
WALLACE: And she supposedly, uh, was big in the church and was
a religious leader.
BERRY: Sure enough.
WALLACE: And would go from house to house with literature.
BERRY: Anna Mary [Anna Mae Blackwell] had a boy by him.
WALLACE: Oh, she did?
BERRY: Yes. She had a child. Can't think . . . because,
see, Anna Mae's dead; but Anna Mae would go around down there.
And she lived right on the corner of Washington and, then, it was
called Church Street. That's where Anna Mae moved, and I . . .
WALLACE: Church Street, what street's that? I don't . . .
BERRY: That's down there. They finally . . . when the
finally took, uh, Dudley Street away, they made it all Blanton
Street.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: From . . . from, uh . . . my street all over to Ann
Street.
WALLACE: This Church Street, at the corner of Washington and
Church is where she was . . .
BERRY: At the corner of Washington and St. Clair.
�
WALLACE: St. Clair.
BERRY: That was the area where . . . that was that one
little street. And, see, then, from there, I came . . . we was
trying to think what the other street was named before it was
named Blanton.
WALLACE: Dudley.
BERRY: No. Dudley was down this way. This is where I moved
from, but I can't recall the name it was before it was all
changed because Professor Blanton lived there and they named it
after him.
WALLACE: Humm.
BERRY: All through that area, Blanton Street. And I can't .
. . no one seemed to remember because all those people are dead
and gone.
WALLACE: When would that name change have taken place;
probably . . .
BERRY: It . . . it had to be taking place in the thirties
[1930's], I believe.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: In the thirties [1930's].
WALLACE: I'll show you something here that might help. I
brought this. I went to an old insurance map. They used to have
. . . insurance adjusters would come around and they'd fire code
�
the houses.
BERRY: Yes, uh-huh.
WALLACE: And I xeroxed and taped together a xeroxed copy of
this whole insurance map, and most of it's Bottom. Let me get
you oriented real quick here. Here's Wilkinson, running all the
way out.
BERRY: Yeah. Yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: I'll pull that for you.
BERRY: Yeah, I see Clinton Street.
WALLACE: There's Clinton coming in . . .
BERRY: Right here.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: This is Mero.
WALLACE: Mero.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Now, here's Blanton.
BERRY: Blanton. Let's see. Dudley, Blanton. Now, this . .
.
WALLACE: There's another part of Blanton.
BERRY: Now, wait a minute. What's . . . what's this street
here?
WALLACE: Center.
BERRY: Center Street.
�
WALLACE: Center.
BERRY: Now, I'm trying to think what area this is. This is
what . . . this is Dudley.
WALLACE: There's Mayo. There's Mayo-Underwood.
BERRY: This is Du- . . . this is Dudley here.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And this is Blanton. Now, this is the area I'm
talking about, right here.
WALLACE: And they call it Center Street here.
BERRY: I can't understand why they would call . . .
WALLACE: I don't understand that.
BERRY: I can't understand that because Center Street . . .
because Center Street was opposite of the school.
WALLACE: And look behind Center. They call it Gaines . . .
BERRY: Gaines Alley.
WALLACE: Alley. And, then, they call Long Lane.
BERRY: Long Lane. That was across Broadway.
WALLACE: Yeah. See, Long Lane, I thought, was on the South
side of Broadway.
BERRY: No . . . like you say, it's across . . . it's across
Broadway over . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Uh-huh.
�
WALLACE: So, I thought this might bring back some . . .
BERRY: Well, I can't . . . I'm trying to think. This street
here, and I don't know why they've got Center over here. This is
the area I'm talking about because, see, Hill Street was right
behind this street. It ended on St. Clair.
WALLACE: Yeah. Here it is. Here's St. Clair coming in right
there.
BERRY: And St. Clair . . . well, if that's St. Clair, then .
. . then, this other street is over here, then, because St. Clair
is what . . . the part I'm talking about that they got Blanton.
And that's the part I'm talking about.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: What was that street named before it was named
Blanton?
WALLACE: They don't have anything in there.
BERRY: I . . . well, I . . . because, see, it wasn't Blanton
Street at first.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: And that's what we were trying to figure out. What
in the worl- . . .
WALLACE: Well, see, here where . . . here's where Ann comes
in, and this little thing and, then, Ann and there's the
Salvation Army on the corner.
�
BERRY: Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: I guess that's the furniture warehouse, where Simon's
. . .
BERRY: Simon's. Simon's, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Well, I just got that out. I'll just leave it out,
if you like. There might be some places you want to point out.
Uh, let me give you a few more names here. Uh, Julia Miles?
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Willie Miles' wife.
BERRY: Yeah. Sure . . . we went to . . . yeah, I know her.
WALLACE: Uh, Dorothy Wright?
BERRY: What was she doing in there? She lived over in South
Frankfort.
WALLACE: Well, that was just a name somebody mentioned.
Louise Evans, that was another name.
BERRY: Anna Louise Evans.
WALLACE: Anna Louise.
BERRY: Yes. Uh-huh. She's a cousin.
WALLACE: She's out in Chicago.
BERRY: She's in Chicago.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Bessie Anderson?
�
BERRY: That's my sister.
WALLACE: That's your sister.
BERRY: Yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Ah, I didn't know that. Uh, let's see, I guess,
Henry Sanders . . . maybe I got Bessie's name from Henry.
BERRY: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: But . . . Mintie's . . . Mintie's grandmother, is
that . . . I don't know.
BERRY: Mintie's grandmother, well, we lived by her.
WALLACE: Lucy?
BERRY: That wasn't . . . it was her auntie, wasn't her
grandmother. See, there, somebody didn't know what they were
doing. Mintie's mother was Ms. . . . this lady's sister.
WALLACE: Ah, okay. Bessie.
BERRY: Was Ms. Lucy Gaines' sister.
WALLACE: Ah, okay. And, then, Nannie Oliver.
BERRY: Yes. Well, she wasn't a . . . I don't think she was
a Frankfortian or where she came from . . . out in the country
somewhere. But sh- . . . I remember her, a little short lady.
She went to Indianapolis.
WALLACE: Ah, okay. Ms. Matt Hardin?
BERRY: Yes. She just died in the last two or three years,
yes.
�
WALLACE: She lived down in the Bottom?
BERRY: She lived down in that area, uh-huh.
WALLACE: I don't want to keep you too long here. Let me ask
you some of the . . . about Mayo-Underwood and the schools and,
uh . . . do you remember any of the teachers that stand out in
your mind?
BERRY: Well, uh, uh, I think I can recall most all the
teachers. They went to Mayo-Underwood from Clinton Street.
WALLACE: Do you remember Alice Simpson?
BERRY: Alice Samuels.
WALLACE: Samuels, Alice Samuels.
BERRY: Yes, uh-huh. Sure. She was, later on, made
principal.
WALLACE: Yes.
BERRY: When we went down there, Professor Blanton went there
from the old school. He was the first principal there.
WALLACE: When did Ms. Samuels become principal, do you
remember?
BERRY: Yes. Uh, James Blackburn, I think, became principal
before her. No, there was other principals besi- . . . there was
a Maston and, then, it was James Blackburn and, then, Ms.
Samuels.
WALLACE: I guess, it would have been unusual for a woman to be
�
principal during that day.
BERRY: Yea- . . . no. Uh-uh.
WALLACE: No? That was in the fifties [1950's], maybe, or . .
.
BERRY: No, no.
WALLACE: Did . . . did the black . . . do they . . . was there
a black school board that helped run the school?
BERRY: No. No, it was all the citizens, like of the school
system.
WALLACE: One of the things that, uh, I've been told, and
people are sort of, I guess . . . not bitter, but angry; but the
black school got their supplies and books and things as hand-me-
downs from the whites.
BERRY: Hand-me-downs. They were . . . they were . . . they
were never anything new.
WALLACE: Never had a budget to buy . . .
BERRY: And everything, it . . . anytime you wanted
something, Professor Blanton said, "I have to call up
Superintendent Ireland . . ." He was a Superintendent at that
time. ". . . and see what they can do." And we got all their
old books.
WALLACE: Yeah. And that Grad Club, uh . . .
BERRY: That was . . . originated afterward they started
�
Mayo-Underwood School.
WALLACE: Yeah. To help get money for athletic . . .
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . supplies and equipment and things like that.
BERRY: Uh-huh. Umhumm. Because my brother, he was one
of the originals of the Grad Club.
WALLACE: Do you remember when that started, by chance?
BERRY: Gosh. I do know where they first met.
WALLACE: Where was that?
BERRY: It was on Blanton Street and the fellow's name was
Mark Warren.
WALLACE: Warren?
BERRY: Mark Warren. They had that first meeting at his
house, on a Sunday.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: What led to them getting it started? They just . . .
BERRY: Well, they were interested in the colored children,
and they wanted to keep the athletics going and to help the
parents that couldn't afford to help their children.
WALLACE: Buy the equipment.
BERRY: And they did things to bring spark and livelihood to
the school. Uh-huh.
�
WALLACE: What kind of things would they, uh . . .
BERRY: Well, they promoted programs. They would have, uh, a
basketball team of the boys and they would dress up as girls
[laughter - Wallace] and they would play and do things like that,
just to make money. And, then, there was a lot of dances. We
had alumni then and alumni did a whole lot of the school then.
But it finally broke up like everything else.
WALLACE: Everything else. On the dances, would you all hire a
band to come in . . .
BERRY: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: . . . and perform and . . .
BERRY: Yes. We'd hire a band. The main band was
[inaudible] out of Lexington, Kentucky called Smoke Richardson.
WALLACE: Tell me, how . . . I've had a couple of people
mention Smoke Richardson and they speak very highly of him.
BERRY: Oh, he could play.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: He had a . . . he had a good orchestra. And he was
good.
WALLACE: They said his 12, 15 piece band would . . .
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: . . . perform all the popular dances.
BERRY: Oh, all the dances and you just had a good time.
�
WALLACE: Was everybody in his band black? It was a . . .
BERRY: Oh, yes. It was all black. It was all black then.
WALLACE: Has he gone on or is he . . .
BERRY: Oh, he had to be.
WALLACE: Yeah, he must . . .
BERRY: Yeah. I don't think . . . I doubt if any of them are
living.
WALLACE: Well, what . . . how did the community react to the
Brown v. Board of Education decision when they said to integrate
the schools? What were the black . . . do you remember how black
parents . . .
BERRY: Well, yes, because, see, there was a little group of
them that wanted their children to integrate. And I guess Henry
Sanders told you that his daughter was in the very first to go to
the white school.
WALLACE: No, he did not mention that.
BERRY: Well, she was the first black girl to go over there.
WALLACE: What kind of reception did, uh, the children get?
BERRY: Well, I never did hear because . . . I'm going to say
it . . . they are pushy people, very pushy. So . . . but Dorothy
Mae was accepted because she was an outstanding student and, so,
she made it and, then, it was a group that it was really
fighting, the board down here, the teachers; and when integration
�
came, they were glad.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: But it cut off socializing.
WALLACE: That's one of the things people have told me. Mayo-
Underwood was a social center for the black community.
BERRY: It was social. And children had something to do.
Now, they raise sand; nothing to do, nothing to go to. They . .
. a lot of them, if you're not popular and you [don't] have a
lovely home, you're just not accepted.
WALLACE: You know, you're ostracized.
BERRY: Umhumm. Yeah, you are. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Did the black teachers find work, then, in the white
system when the . . .
BERRY: Well, you were just . . .
WALLACE: . . . Mayo-Underwood . . .
BERRY: There were just two or three of them that went from
Mayo-Underwood over there.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: Just two or three of them.
WALLACE: Did the others want to and just couldn't, or they
just quit?
BERRY: I don't know whether they just retired or just didn't
. . . maybe none didn't want to be bothered by it, you know.
�
WALLACE: It would have been a hard jump from teaching all
blacks . . .
BERRY: All blacks to the other one, umhumm.
WALLACE: To deal with the white children and the prejudice.
BERRY: Yes, white children, prejudice.
WALLACE: Let me talk about some of the businesses; and, if you
can help me by identifying where they're located. I know a lot
of the names, but I don't . . . Tiger's Inn.
BERRY: That was on the corner of Clinton and Mero . . . I
mean, Washington Street and Mero.
WALLACE: Okay. Here's Washington and here's Mero. Okay,
there's the . . . where would . . .
BERRY: It was on the corner of Washington and Mero, which .
. .
WALLACE: That would be . . .
BERRY: Right here.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Do you have any remembrances of the Tiger Inn?
BERRY: Yes. Before it was Tiger's Inn, it was a upholstery
shop there.
WALLACE: Upholstery shop?
BERRY: Yes. A little man upholstered there.
�
WALLACE: Black man?
BERRY: Oh, yes. See, all this in the black area. And,
then, "Tubba" Marshall, Ellsworth Marshall's father, and Ewen
Atkins, they went together and formulated, and Professor Condy
[Conda] . . . he's dead also . . . , those three went together
and had Tiger's Inn. And the reason why, because our team was
called the Tigers, Clinton Street Tigers.
WALLACE: Uh-huh.
BERRY: That's where the Tiger's Inn came from.
WALLACE: Ah. See, I never knew how it got named the Tiger's
Inn.
BERRY: Yes. Yeah, that was it. Tiger's Inn because we were
called Clinton Street Tigers and, then, when we got on down . . .
I don't know . . . I can't recall whether we still called
ourselves the Tigers or not, but that's where the name Tiger's
Inn came from.
WALLACE: Tiger's Inn came from. Okay.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Robb's Funeral Home.
BERRY: Yes. I worked up there.
WALLACE: I think that's right . . . here's St. Clair and
there's Clinton coming in, and it says Undertaker here.
BERRY: Well, that's where he was, right there.
�
WALLACE: Do you have any remembrances of Robb's Funeral Home?
BERRY: Well, yes. I worked there.
WALLACE: I didn't know that.
BERRY: Yeah, as a beautician. I did a lot of the work after
they'd gone.
WALLACE: Oh.
BERRY: Because, see, that was a family business.
WALLACE: Yes.
BERRY: Two brothers, Ancil William and Tom, uh, Robb,
whatever his name was; Tom Robb.
WALLACE: Well, Jack was their son.
BERRY: Jack was a son.
WALLACE: Was he the only . . . only child?
BERRY: No. There's two girls, two girls.
WALLACE: Are any . . . is any of those . . . they scattered?
BERRY: They, uh . . . they married.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: One, I think, went to Argentina. They both married
whites. But they were so fair themselves, they just went on
because that was being discussed and neither one of them never
did come back when their mother or their father passed.
WALLACE: Oh. You mean they didn't come back for the . . .
BERRY: Funeral.
�
WALLACE: Funeral?
BERRY: No. Nothing.
WALLACE: Oh. They say Jack was a very popular man.
BERRY: Oh, he was. He was talented.
WALLACE: Let me check my tape recorder. Yeah, it's still
going. Yeah, he was an entertainer.
BERRY: Yes. Very, very good. He was accepted so many
places.
WALLACE: White and black.
BERRY: Yes. We're talking about . . . he made his money
mostly from the whites' places.
WALLACE: Some of the groceries . . . where was "Frog" [Huston
K. Woods] Wood's grocery?
BERRY: "Frog" Woods started on Mero and Washington.
WALLACE: Okay, here's Mero and Washington again.
BERRY: Yes. He's . . .
WALLACE: There's Tiger's.
BERRY: Well, then, he must be over here on this corner.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: Because Tiger's Inn was on one side of the street and
the grocery was across the street.
WALLACE: On the corner.
BERRY: Well, now, he must . . . Tiger's Inn must have been
�
in here and "Frog" was over here.
WALLACE: Okay. Okay. Uh, Alonzo Lewis [Alonzo A. Lewis].
BERRY: He was on the corner of Dudley and Wilkinson.
WALLACE: Okay, here's Dudley and Wilkinson. There's that
corner.
BERRY: Yeah. He was on the corner there.
WALLACE: Was he on the same block as Mayo-Underwood?
BERRY: Yes. He was on the same block.
WALLACE: Okay. So, he'd be right in there, that corner right
there.
BERRY: Umhumm. Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Triplett's, Triplett's [Eugene P. Triplett] grocery.
BERRY: Triplett's was on Mero Street near St. Clair.
WALLACE: Okay. Here's Mero and St. Clair.
BERRY: He was on the opposite side.
WALLACE: On, uh . . .
BERRY: Going across.
WALLACE: Okay. On the St. Clair side?
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Okay. Uh, Bryant's grocery. Bob Dreyer had it and
it became Bryant's.
BERRY: Well, Bob Dreyer's grocery was on St. Clair.
WALLACE: Was it on St. Clair?
�
BERRY: Yes. He first had his grocery store on St. Clair, on
the corner of St. Clair and, as we called it, Blanton Street.
WALLACE: Ah, okay. So, he's up here then.
BERRY: Yeah. Umhumm.
WALLACE: All right. And, then, Kozy Korner.
BERRY: Kozy Korner, that was up in the Bottom somewhere.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: I think, at Washington and Clinton Street.
BERRY: Yeah, it was. Yes.
WALLACE: I believe Ellsworth Marshall, Jr. . . .
BERRY: Junior ran it.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Yes, he did.
WALLACE: Do you have any remembrances of Kozy Korner?
Nobody's ever described it to me, what it . . .
BERRY: Well, it was just a place where the young people and
the older people sat and want to drink, or eat a good sandwich or
drink a cold beer, and they just got there. It was just a place
where you'd met friends. It was a clean place.
WALLACE: Did they have jukebox or dance floor?
BERRY: No, no dance, but they had jukebox. Everybody had a
jukebox, yes, umhumm.
�
WALLACE: Haydon's Beer Garden.
BERRY: Oh, that was on Clinton Street.
WALLACE: That was sort of a rough place.
BERRY: It was. It was. I didn't know about that, but I
just knew where it was up there by . . .
WALLACE: Yeah. Uh, James T. Graham said his dad, "Black Cat",
worked for Haydon.
BERRY: Yes, umhumm.
WALLACE: As a matter of fact . . .
BERRY: He was a policeman.
WALLACE: Haydon was a policeman?
BERRY: Yeah, umhumm.
WALLACE: It's no wonder he could do what he wanted to do down
there.
BERRY: Yeah. It was . . .
WALLACE: Because he . . .
BERRY: That's why a lot of the people there, they knew all .
. . Cass [William S. Castleman] and of them. Cousin Cass, he was
a cousin. They knew, though, they had protection. And he went .
. . D. D. Smith was the mayor of Frankfort. I'm not . . . and
I'm not telling these names, but I have friends that bootlegged,
but they always knew when the Revenuers were coming in because,
uh, D. D. had a daughter named Myra that would go these places.
�
And she would let . . . and they would know. They would let Cass
know and Cass would say, "[inaudible], stop. The Revenuers are
coming in."
WALLACE: Coming in. So, Cass was connected with the white . .
.
BERRY: He was making it.
WALLACE: . . . collar people.
BERRY: And he was power for the blacks and, then, the white
people knew him.
WALLACE: Yeah. So, he's sort of a go-between, almost, between
the two worlds.
BERRY: Yes. Yes.
WALLACE: Uh, the Suds-n-teria, do you remember that?
BERRY: Well, that was on . . . Suds-n-teria was on Clinton
Street.
WALLACE: Was that a laundromat?
BERRY: A laundromat, umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: I . . . was that owned by black?
BERRY: No. I think it was owned by a white, but the black
rented.
WALLACE: Rented.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: And that's a thing a lot of people . . . a lot of
�
these businesses, blacks didn't own, but they'd ran them
sometimes.
BERRY: They ran them for someone. What blacks had enough
money to furnish a place like that? You had to have all that
equipment. Poor black couldn't put no washers and dryers in.
They didn't make that kind of money then.
WALLACE: And they couldn't get it loaned from white banks.
BERRY: They couldn't, that's right. That's right. Because
when you . . . I know when, uh, when I first built my shop, well,
this . . . this furniture is antique. I had to . . . my mother
said, "You better not lose my furniture." I had to put it up to
get the loan.
WALLACE: As collateral for the loan.
BERRY: Collateral.
WALLACE: Where was your shop when you . . .
BERRY: I had . . . my first shop was on Washington Street,
but I'm just telling you that's what you had to do. And Mr.
Sullivan, he was the President of the Farmer's Bank.
WALLACE: Fred, now, President?
BERRY: Fred Sullivan.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Umhumm. Fred Sullivan [Paul Sullivan]. And, so, I
had talked with him and he sent the men, somebody down there to
�
look it over, and if I wasn't black . . . he said, "Oh, yes, you
can get those." They all wanted this. You'd be surprised. And
the lady that owned it, she . . . her . . . see, this is what
hurts. The black people had beautiful stuff.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BERRY: And the white people would come. I've had them here.
They want this table. I don't know whether you ever heard of
George Haight or the Hazelriggs. Well, he was a big shot. This
table was his. My auntie worked for him. And, when he . . .
before he died, he gave my auntie all of this. And I've had
people coming in here wanting it.
WALLACE: Offered you money to buy it from you.
BERRY: You know what that table . . . what do you think that
table's worth now?
WALLACE: Fifteen hundred dollars?
BERRY: More than that. And they have had . . . they have
come in here worrying me. I said, "Why do you all come in black
people's homes? Don't you think we'd like nice things, too?"
But, see, this is what has happened. A lot of black people,
white people . . . because where my sister worked, the, uh . . .
I can't even call him by his name right now . . . they had
nothing but antiques, and she had beautiful stuff. I have two
aunties, their home was nothing but antiques. Well, white people
�
came and saw it. My auntie, one woman, they . . . they . . . she
loved money. She sold lots of beautiful things to them. Mrs.
South, I don't know whether you ever heard of the Souths. Well,
he was a big diplomat, and my auntie worked for them. In fact,
when she died, my auntie was living with her. And when she died,
she left her everything.
WALLACE: What was your aunt's name?
BERRY: Eliza Grant.
WALLACE: Eliza Grant.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Uh, that's one thing I've heard from a number of
people is, when they had to relocate out of the Bottom, the
homeowners didn't get enough money to buy a home as . . .
BERRY: They didn't. They didn't.
WALLACE: . . . big and they . . . they had to sell or give
away a lot of their precious antiques . . .
BERRY: They had to. They had to.
WALLACE: . . . and belongings.
BERRY: They did it.
WALLACE: A lot of them are bitter about that.
BERRY: Well, one lady, she's living down at her sister's,
she claimed that it was because of relocation that she became
ill. It wasn't that. But that's what I said because my mother
�
and I struggled to own this shack. But we didn't have a home.
We weren't able to get a home because we didn't make enough
money.
WALLACE: Did you originally own a home in the Bottom? Is that
. . .
BERRY: No. This is the first place we've owned. We rented.
[End of Tape #1, Side #2]
[Begin Tape #2, Side #1]
WALLACE: . . . 99 Club. Do you remember the 99 Club?
BERRY: Where was that supposed to be?
WALLACE: George Taylor had, uh, Ms. Knott running it for him.
It was a second-floor place above George Taylor's whiskey store.
BERRY: 99 Club on Washington Street.
WALLACE: Yes.
BERRY: On Washington Street, yes. I knew that.
WALLACE: Was that in that block between Broadway and . . .
BERRY: Between . . . between the block on the . . . going up
toward Broadway on the right-hand side of the street.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Would it have been across from the, uh . . .
BERRY: Not across from the, uh, uh, Odd Fellows' Building,
but in that area.
�
WALLACE: Yeah. Here's the Odd Fellows' Building right here on
the corner.
BERRY: Yes. Well, then, it was over across the street . . .
WALLACE: Ah. Like cater-cornered, from them or something.
BERRY: Yes. Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Uh, that was a place people speak . . . they'd go
over there and they'd dance and maybe have a sandwich or a beer
or something.
BERRY: They had good cook. They had good cook. Watts and
his old lady, they were darn good cooks, and it was just a clean,
nice place. Good food.
WALLACE: Well, I talked to Maggie Knott yesterday.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And she said, "We never had violence in there."
BERRY: No.
WALLACE: She said, if somebody cut up, they'd . . .
BERRY: They'd put them out.
WALLACE: . . . they'd never be allowed back in.
BERRY: They'd never be allowed. They never were. Most
people, I'll tell you what irked us. It wasn't the people in
that area that cut up. It was the people off East Main and South
Frankfort that'd bring their dirt and they'd be the ones that
would do the cutting up.
�
WALLACE: Then they'd go home and you all are stuck with the
reputation.
BERRY: With the reputation. And we had to let them know.
We'd find . . . there was a lot of arguments about that. We were
. . . people over there were just decent people.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Everybody was just clean, fun-loving people.
WALLACE: What about, uh, "Shineboy's"?
BERRY: Oh, I reckon.
WALLACE: Remember "Shineboy's"?
BERRY: Do I? Lord, he could cook. [Laughter - Wallace] He
was out of the mountains. Yes, he could cook. He has his
business on, uh, Gashouse Alley and Mero Street.
WALLACE: Okay, here's Mero. Gashouse Alley, where would that
have been?
BERRY: That was . . . be . . . up into, uh, that street you
would go up to Broadway where Long Lane . . .
WALLACE: Okay. Here's . . . here's Broadway and here's . . .
here's Gaines. There's Long Lane.
BERRY: Was just on a corner of Gashouse Alley.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
BERRY: Because, see, why they called it Gashouse, the
building on Mero and Washington was the gas company.
�
WALLACE: Ah. Well, here's the . . . here's the Tennessee . .
.
BERRY: It's that big place there, was a gas place. That's
where they brought all the trucks.
WALLACE: Yeah. Okay, where was "Shineboy's" then, in . . .
BERRY: "Shineboy" was on the corner of Gashouse and Mero.
WALLACE: Okay. Here's Mero and there's Gashouse.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: So, he was right over in . . .
BERRY: Right behind it. Right behind it.
WALLACE: They said he could cook chitlings like . . .
BERRY: He could, yes.
WALLACE: Oh, it was . . . people would come in . . .
BERRY: You ever eat any?
WALLACE: I've never had them myself.
BERRY: They're delicious. You know what they are, don't
you?
WALLACE: I thought that they were, uh, pork skins.
BERRY: Guts. They're guts.
WALLACE: Guts. And, uh, one of the stories, I think, that Mr.
Sanders told me, said, KSU, when they'd have the big homecoming,
people would bring folk to eat at "Shineboy's" because he has . .
. he could cook like you wouldn't believe.
�
BERRY: He could. He could cook. He could cook.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: He could cook.
WALLACE: But he was one that, uh, urban renewal sort of did
his business in.
BERRY: Well, no. "Shineboy" had left before that.
WALLACE: When did he leave down there?
BERRY: Oh, "Shineboy" left way before the urban renewal came
down there. He became in ill health and he went back home.
WALLACE: Back to the mountains?
BERRY: Back to the mountains.
WALLACE: Do you know what his name was? Nobody knows.
BERRY: No. I don't know what anybody ever . . . anybody . .
. she's dead. And one of the ladies, see, that worked there, I'm
just wondering if she's here because I saw her other day, Ella
Cleveland, at her mother's house. She worked for "Shineboy."
Now, whether she ever really knew his name or not, I wouldn't
know.
WALLACE: Know. See, that's . . . that's another one that you
just . . . do you have any stories about "Shineboy", any favorite
remembrances of him?
BERRY: "Shineboy" had a temper; but I tell you what, he
didn't allow no foolishness. You respected his place or else you
�
get out. And, as the school was across, he was nice to
everybody. And, if he'd liked you, he was more than nice because
he was in our home quite a bit because he never eaten any souse,
hoghead souse.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And Mamma offered him some and he says, "Tell me how
you make this." And Mamma told him how to make it and, then, he
started making it and selling it. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Well, he's one that, uh, people speak very highly of.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Do you remember, uh, a place called the Silver
Slipper?
BERRY: That's up in the Bottom, too, I think.
WALLACE: Yeah. It was down in the Bottom.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: The barbers, uh, Charles William Chiles.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Said he was full of mischief. "Corn Puddin" Chiles.
BERRY: "Corn Puddin", yeah. Uh-huh.
WALLACE: Fred Allen.
BERRY: Oh, yes. Barber.
WALLACE: John Davis.
BERRY: Well, you take, uh . . . first, before that, Charles
�
William worked the . . . one of the first barber's down in there
beside Fred Allen. Aside from Fred was a man named Russell [Bud
Russell].
WALLACE: Russell.
BERRY: Okay, I don't know what Mr. Russell's first name was
because I made a dime every Sunday to go to his house and get his
dinner and take it to him.
WALLACE: When would this have been?
BERRY: Oh, I was a child. That would have to have been in
the early twenties [1920's].
WALLACE: Early twenties [1920's].
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Where would the bar- . . . were the barber shops
scattered throughout the area? Were they . . .
BERRY: Yeah. They was all in the area. It was on . . .
they was on Clinton Street or on Washington Street. That's where
the barber shops were. They was in the little area together
where the restaurants were.
WALLACE: Little Restaurant, a place run by "Newt" Berry.
BERRY: That was on Washington Street. Yes, a little place
over there by the pool room.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: Umhumm.
�
WALLACE: Would that have been the pool room owned by George
Taylor?
BERRY: Yes. Uh-huh. It was, yes.
WALLACE: Okay. Uh, Ike's.
BERRY: Ike Yette. Ike Yette?
WALLACE: What?
BERRY: Ike Yette?
WALLACE: I . . .
BERRY: Ike.
WALLACE: Ike.
BERRY: Ike. That's Ike Yette. I don't know what they got
by him.
WALLACE: Nothing. They just . . . a place called the Grill
that Will Wren used to . . .
BERRY: Yeah. Well, that was Ike Yette's place. That was
where Anna Mary Wren's father owned, umhumm.
WALLACE: And I guess that's just another little eating spot.
BERRY: Eating place.
WALLACE: The White Spot, on Clinton Street.
BERRY: Well, you see, some of those places, I don't . . .
WALLACE: You never had any connection with that. Fincel's
[Fincel Brothers Meat Market] Meat Market.
BERRY: That was it. That was on Broad- . . . on St. Clair.
�
WALLACE: St. Clair.
BERRY: St. Clair.
WALLACE: And that, uh . . . if you didn't have refrigeration,
I guess you . . . did they have a big freezer they . . .
BERRY: They had . . . they had those great big ice boxes
because everybody bought ice.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And . . . but, uh, he had some of the best meat, and
they were the nicest people.
WALLACE: They would work with the blacks and . . .
BERRY: They worked with the blacks and they . . .
WALLACE: . . . allow you to run a tab.
BERRY: If you . . . they knew you, they would give you
extra. And when, uh, days were . . . I can't think of . . . call
the word now . . . you had to go over there and stand in line.
I've been over there many a morning, six o'clock, to get meat,
when meat . . . was a shortage of food. That was during that
World War I . . .
WALLACE: No. Like when they were rationing?
BERRY: Ration food and tried to send [inaudible] rationing
of it.
WALLACE: Well, Fincel had more than one location, didn't he?
He moved around?
�
BERRY: He . . . he first . . . my knowledge, was on
St. Clair. Then, I . . . I think he was . . . anyway, went to
Wilkinson Street or where he went to.
WALLACE: I think he did go over to Wilkinson and Broadway.
BERRY: Way up in there, yes.
WALLACE: Where that ran out. Is there any of those Fincels
left around here that would know . . .
BERRY: If they are, she would be on . . . it's a house out
here on the intersection going up the bypass from off of Holmes
Street. It's ongoing to the road. It's . . . the Fincels still
live out there.
WALLACE: Okay. I might see if I can talk to them sometime. A
place called the Red Brick that used to be where Kozy Korner, I
guess . . .
BERRY: Yeah, Red Brick. All that's down in where Will Wren
and all them ran.
WALLACE: Uh, do you have any remembrances of George Taylor or
ever met him or . . .
BERRY: No. I never did know George Taylor. I just saw
George Taylor. That's the one that, uh, owned the liquor store
on Broadway?
WALLACE: Ran the pool room and, uh . . .
BERRY: Pool room. I just knew of George Taylor. But he was
�
nice to colored women and people down there because I had a girl
friend that worked for him. And she still goes to the house and
cleans up for them. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Is George's son . . . didn't he have a son?
BERRY: Yeah. His son has a liquor store.
WALLACE: Yeah. His son's still with us. He hasn't gone on.
BERRY: Yeah. The liquor store is still out there on East
Main, up the road.
WALLACE: Yeah. I thought about calling him and seeing if his
son . . . son would talk to me. I haven't done it yet.
BERRY: Well, he might.
WALLACE: Charlie Duvall, did you ever . . .
BERRY: I knew, uh, knew of him. He had the warehouse, yes.
WALLACE: Yeah. He distributed beer and pop.
BERRY: Beer and stuff, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Uh, Earl Tracy.
BERRY: Yes, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Do you remember Earl?
BERRY: Oh, sure. Sure.
WALLACE: Anything about him stick out in your mind?
BERRY: Well, now, James Berry, "Papa Jazz", he could have
told you because his wife was his niece.
WALLACE: Ah. Okay.
�
BERRY: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: Well, Earl, uh . . . of course, Henry Sanders worked
. . .
BERRY: That was his uncle.
WALLACE: That was his uncle. Yeah, he worked for him.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: As a black businessman and an owner of a cab company,
people have told me that Mr. Tracy was somewhat influential in
the community.
BERRY: I don't call it influential. He might have been to
some people; but, to some of us, he wasn't . . .
WALLACE: Oh, I see.
BERRY: . . . because, uh, Earl didn't have the background,
the stamina, to really . . . some people, I wonder why they try
to pursue an office when they're not capable.
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, he didn't have much formal education at
all.
BERRY: That's what I know. That's . . . no.
WALLACE: He didn't, not at all. Dr. Berry, do you remember
Dr. Berry?
BERRY: Oh, yes; very well.
WALLACE: Good physician.
BERRY: Yes, very well.
�
WALLACE: Good physician. Uh, the Winnie A. Scott Hospital.
BERRY: Yes, umhumm.
WALLACE: On Second Street.
BERRY: Second Street, umhumm.
WALLACE: Down at the east end of Second Street.
BERRY: Yes. Uh-huh.
WALLACE: And Dr. Berry would practice there and, I guess, he'd
come out to your home, too.
BERRY: Yes. See, because he removed my tonsils at my house
. . . years . . .
WALLACE: Oh, really?
BERRY: Yes, umhumm.
WALLACE: What became of Dr. Berry?
BERRY: He . . . he passed. He was an alcoholic.
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, I'd heard that . . .
BERRY: Yeah, he was an alcoholic badly. [Inaudible]
WALLACE: And, actually, I heard that he passed in sort of
violent circumstances.
BERRY: Yes. He . . . he was . . . he had a temper. He had
a temper. Yes, he . . .
WALLACE: Dr. Biggerstaff?
BERRY: Yes. He was a dentist.
WALLACE: Where was his office, do you remember?
�
BERRY: Dr. Biggerstaff was on Clinton Street there where,
later on, Elizabeth Oglesby had a beauty shop there.
WALLACE: And I've called Ms. Oglesby to see if she'd talk to
me. She's thinking about it, she said.
BERRY: Well, she's getting ready to go away. I imagine
they'll be leaving tomorrow. Her granddaughter's getting
married.
WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah, she told me that . . .
BERRY: Yes. And they've been getting ready to leave the
city.
WALLACE: Oh, they're going to relocate?
BERRY: Yes. They . . . neither one . . . her daughter,
neither one of them are well and they're going to her daughter's
daughter, home in Florida, to live.
WALLACE: Ah. I missed out on her probably. Dr. Withers?
He's a dentist.
BERRY: Yes. He was . . . or, uh, yes, he was . . . he
married a school teacher.
WALLACE: Uh-huh.
BERRY: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: Do you know when, uh, Biggerstaff was practicing?
BERRY: Yes. Uh, he, because . . . no, I'm getting Dr. Gay
and Dr. Biggerstaff mixed up. Dr. Biggestaff lived in Lexington
�
and that's where he lived because I used to go over there because
Dr. Barr had . . . or somebody fixed my teeth and didn't do right
and I would go to Dr. Biggerstaff in Lexington to do the work.
WALLACE: Ah. Well, he didn't come over to Frankfort?
BERRY: No. But, after he left, he went to Lexington to
live.
WALLACE: Oh, I see.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: Uh, Dr. Underwood.
BERRY: Well, he was right there on Mero Street.
WALLACE: Street.
BERRY: Yes. I was in there an awful lot.
WALLACE: Was he your family physician?
BERRY: No. Dr. Anderson was my family doctor.
WALLACE: Anderson?
BERRY: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: See, that's a name I didn't have, Dr. Anderson.
BERRY: Oh, yes. Why, I don't see why. His son was a big
lawyer in Louisville, Charles Anderson.
WALLACE: Ah. Okay.
BERRY: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: Uh, I guess the black physicians and dentists and
doctors, uh, maintained their own offices and pretty much treated
�
you either in their office or the home.
BERRY: They had offices. Most of them had offices because
they were making good money and, such as it was. They were good
livers, umhumm.
WALLACE: Did, uh . . . I guess they would have been the middle
class. Those that lived down in the Bottom . . .
BERRY: Yes. Yes.
WALLACE: . . . would have been the middle class.
BERRY: Yes. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Uh, we talked a little bit about some other people I
just mentioned. Do you have any remembrances of Will Castelman
[William S. Castleman]? I mean . . .
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Can you describe him? I don't even know what he
looked like.
BERRY: He was a tall, handsome fellow that had a sort of a
limp that you . . . but he was very classy and very choicy. And,
uh, he was my cousin; but he was a nice fellow and, if he liked
you, he would go to bat for you. But if he didn't and you'd . .
. I could understand because a lot of people, he just wants to
[inaudible]. But he would do it if you would . . . you needed
it; so . . . he was nice.
WALLACE: Yeah. They said that he was a . . . had a deep
�
voice.
BERRY: Deep voice. "What are you talking about?"
[Laughter]
WALLACE: But if you got in a scrape, he was a man that . . .
BERRY: To go to.
WALLACE: . . . could square it for you.
BERRY: To go to because he knew the . . . he knew the
people, the right people up-town; but if you . . . if you didn't
have no background or if you were one of them types that didn't
care about yourself, he don't fool with you. Uh-uh.
WALLACE: He wouldn't mess with you.
BERRY: No. I don't blame him.
WALLACE: John Buckner.
BERRY: Oh, yes. He was in my church, an officer.
WALLACE: He was a self-made man, wasn't he?
BERRY: Self-made man. Uneducated, but worked for the
Berrys, he and his wife, for years, and that's where he . . .
WALLACE: Distillery people?
BERRY: No. The Berrys. They live out on . . . well,
they're now out here on Louisville Pike. Very rich people, and
that's where he and his wife worked for years, and their . . .
her mother and father worked for these people.
WALLACE: Ah.
�
BERRY: And, so, uh, it's where Juniper Hill and all that.
The Berrys owned all that.
WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah.
BERRY: And, so, but . . . John Buckner was . . . he was a
carpenter and he bought . . . well, you could buy a house then
for two or three hundred dollars.
WALLACE: Yeah. And he'd buy them and fix them up?
BERRY: And buy and fix them up. He kept them up. That's
one thing about him, he kept up his property.
WALLACE: Well, that's . . . I've heard many people . . . and
Ms. Henrietta Gill said to me, she had no qualms about living in
a house that John had owned.
BERRY: No. He kept them up.
WALLACE: John owned because he did work, keep them up.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And he was vocal opponent of the, uh, urban renewal.
He fought it.
BERRY: I know it. I know it.
WALLACE: And, uh . . .
BERRY: But the blacks didn't vote for him. They . . . we've
had a lot of them to run for Council. None of them has ever
succeeded because the blacks have worked against one another and
they just would not put him . . . "Buddy" Ellis and "Tubba"
�
Marshall, Simmons and all them have run, but they never won
because a lot of them wouldn't vote for them.
WALLACE: Well, that's one thing I've heard, that urban renewal
split the black leadership.
BERRY: It did. It did something we'll never understand. I
don't know why, but I . . . that's the only thing I could . . .
never could understand, with all the togetherness, they just
didn't stick together on politics.
WALLACE: Well, and I guess some of them lined up on one side
saying, "This is good and we should do it" . . .
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And others . . .
BERRY: Well, I think, a lot of times . . . jealously has a
big part. If, "Oh, I'm not going to vote because I've seen that
in the church. I'm not going to vote for him. Why, he thinks
he's too important. Well, no, you think I'm going to put him in?
Why, he won't even go in and speak to you." That's what happens.
WALLACE: So, they just . . . I guess factionalism and
in-fighting . . .
BERRY: Yes. Yes.
WALLACE: . . . kept these people. Antonio Papa.
BERRY: Well, that's . . . he was the ice cream man.
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
BERRY: Yeah, yes.
WALLACE: Push-cart.
BERRY: Push-cart and, then, he had his little truck; the
bell. There was quite a few of them around here.
WALLACE: Yeah. Went . . . I guess, if you made a nickel or
whatever, you could go get an ice cream from him or something.
BERRY: Oh, yeah; a nickel, ice cream. And . . . and, like
you say, they lived on the corner of Mero and St. Clair and he
had his place in the back yard where he had a . . . they made it.
Many a day we'd go there and, if he knew you well, boy, he would
just pile it up. [Laughter] "Oh, Tony, treat me some more."
"Now, I can't give you all my ice cream." But just nice. He has
a daughter that lives down the street.
WALLACE: She's . . . what is her name, do you know, offhand?
BERRY: Let me think. I know her name. Williams.
WALLACE: Williams.
BERRY: Williams, uh . . .
WALLACE: I'd like to talk to her sometime.
BERRY: Yes. Very young. On Mero Street. You know where
Simon's store?
WALLACE: Sure.
BERRY: Live right next . . . going on, they live right next
door to Simon's.
�
WALLACE: The next house up.
BERRY: Yes, umhumm.
WALLACE: Okay. Because people think very . . . at least, most
I've talked to thought very highly of him, Antonio Papa.
BERRY: Yes. Oh, why, they were the nicest people going.
WALLACE: Thomas "Black Cat" Graham.
BERRY: Oh, yes. He was a friend, yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: Friend of yours?
BERRY: Oh, yes.
WALLACE: They said he was a baseball pitcher you wouldn't . .
.
BERRY: Baseball. Sure, they used to play baseball over in
the prison. He and [inaudible] Lindsey, a bunch of them and, uh,
oh, somebody was always . . . because, like I say, I was a child
that was . . . liked to go and do things. We would go up on the
Fort Hill and you could look down in the prison ground and see
them play ball. And, then, the prison did . . . would have
shows, and they would take me there to see the prisoners dance
and clap. It was fun.
WALLACE: You could actually go in and see a production put on
by the prisoners.
BERRY: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes, indeedy.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you. Some people have said that a
�
number of residents that lived in the Bottom were actually
relatives and family of folk who were incarcerated in the prison.
BERRY: They were.
WALLACE: Would you say that's an accurate . . .
BERRY: Yes. A lot of them were, yes.
WALLACE: Okay. And folk would get out of jail or prison and .
. .
BERRY: Come on back home.
WALLACE: . . . and come back home and live down in the Bottom.
BERRY: Yes. Because you knew what . . . why they went there
and you didn't hold it against them. But these people that comes
into Frankfort that are paroled to stay here, they can tell you
one thing, but you . . . you can't . . . you don't know the
background.
WALLACE: Well, like, uh, "Black Cat" was briefly incarcerated;
but he took a fall for Haydon.
BERRY: That's what I heard, yes. Yes.
WALLACE: Yeah. And what James said [was] that he [Thomas
"Black Cat" Graham] said he was . . .
BERRY: Yes. Yes. Umhumm.
WALLACE: So, I mean, I . . . I guess he was pitching ball,
maybe, when he . . . when he was in prison. But James said he
would . . . his dad would go out with a team called the Frankfort
�
Merchants and they would go to Springfield and Lebanon and
Versailles and play . . .
BERRY: They would play all around. They'd play all around
all . . .
WALLACE: Did you ever go to any of the games?
BERRY: Yes, but it wasn't this team. I went later on with a
smaller team, but I usua- . . . I love baseball. I'm a sport
addict and I . . . I can sit all day and watch sports.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: But, yes, I can remember seeing them play.
WALLACE: They said it was quite a social occasion. You pay
a little bit to get in and they take . . . the whites would come
. . .
BERRY: Oh, yes, yes.
WALLACE: . . . and watch.
BERRY: Yes. Yes.
WALLACE: Uh, how did a fellow get on the team? I mean, did
you try out or . . .
BERRY: Well, yes, I imagine they did have to try out because
you had to know what position you were going to play and you had
to be good at it. And if you made too many errors, they didn't
keep you. I don't blame them.
WALLACE: Yeah.
�
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: And, uh, said that . . . James said that if you won
the game, a lot of times the winning team got to split the gate.
BERRY: They did.
WALLACE: And take the money and all.
BERRY: Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: And he said it was an opp. . . people sold bootleg
whiskey at the places and you'd meet there, and a big social
deal; big, it was big-time.
BERRY: That's the way Frankfort people lived. Well, that's
all the time because I've hear- . . . I've never been to
Bardstown, but I remember they say some of the best liquor came
out of Bardstown, bootleg liquor.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And Frankfort people had it, because I've been around
it.
WALLACE: Well, and you had to make your money some way, didn't
you? Had to get by.
BERRY: You had to, if you wanted to live because people had
families and, then, men, if they made $7 a week, and you try to
have a family, well, with . . . even though living was cheap, you
wanted to look right. You want to dress your children right.
You wanted to have a good table like everybody else, put a whole
�
chicken on the table, or anything, you had to do something extra.
Bootlegging and, then, I know what I'm talking about, some of the
bootleggers there had lovely homes. Their customer was the rich
white people.
WALLACE: From Bottom. Then, somebody told me that a lot of
times, liquor would come in and a white person would bring it in.
BERRY: They did. They would.
WALLACE: And they . . . they'd more or less hire a black
person to sell it down there for them.
BERRY: That's right. That's so. That's the way they did
it.
WALLACE: And, then, you'd . . . I don't know if they'd just
give you a set amount of money or you got a part of the sales or
how that would work.
BERRY: I don't know either, but I do recall this. See, the
black people, mostly it was home brew.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
BERRY: And that's what the white people liked. See, that's
a beer, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And I know what I'm talking about because I had
friends that did that and I had a girl friend and I would help
her.
�
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: [Laughing] Yes.
WALLACE: Well . . .
BERRY: Because we were protected. We knew that the man
up-town was behind us.
WALLACE: And as long as, I guess, there wasn't trouble or
anything . . .
BERRY: Oh, no. The clientele was people that was class. I
mean, the rich white people. They . . .
WALLACE: How . . . would they come down into the area and
there there'd be a prearranged place that you'd meet to sell, or
. . .
BERRY: No. They would just come. They knew. They would
come mostly on Saturdays and Sundays. That was your biggest
sale, Saturdays and Sundays. They would come in their fine cars
and park just like I . . . you parked out in the front door and
come on wherever they wanted to go. Just one or two places that
catered to the rich.
WALLACE: They'd come in and pick up whatever they wanted or
whatever you had . . .
BERRY: No. They would sit there and enjoy themselves.
WALLACE: Oh, they'd actually drink there?
BERRY: Well, yeah. What I'm talking about, yeah.
�
WALLACE: Oh, I thought they were picking up the stuff and
taking it back to . . .
BERRY: No. Uh-uh. I know what I'm talking about.
WALLACE: . . . up-town or wherever.
BERRY: They would sit there and indulge and . . . and, then,
if you had anything to eat, they would say, "Have you got
anything?" And we'd sell it to them.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And actually eat some with you.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Oh. And, then, with the approval of the white
officials or it wouldn't have been . . .
BERRY: Well, they didn't know nothing about it because the
man up-town, he knew, but, uh, all of this, it was . . . it was
screened.
WALLACE: Protected?
BERRY: Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Alex Gordon, do you remember Alex?
BERRY: Sure, I remember Alex Gordon. He was . . . he had a
place on Washington Street and on Broadway.
WALLACE: I've heard good and bad. I heard he started out in
groceries.
�
BERRY: Then, he bootlegged.
WALLACE: And bootlegged.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: That, uh, you had to be careful not to get crossed
with him because . . .
BERRY: Yes, he . . .
WALLACE: . . . he would kill you.
BERRY: He'd kill you, he would. He had a temper, yeah.
WALLACE: And, uh, one of the stories . . . I haven't yet
to see if it's accurate or not, is that he went into a place to
get some alcohol and there was a black man looking after the
place and refused him for some reason. Alex came back and shot
him, killed him.
BERRY: Umhumm. That was the day. If you call his name, I
might have remembered.
WALLACE: I can't think of the name of . . . I've got it on the
. . . I've got so many hours of tape here, to tell you, I'd have
to go back and try and . . .
BERRY: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: But, uh, I heard the story that he and "Shineboy" got
into it one time.
BERRY: I think I heard something like that because . . .
WALLACE: Just right out in the street . . .
�
BERRY: Right out in the street.
WALLACE: And just popping away at each other.
BERRY: And they were shooting at one another.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: I heard that. And neither one of them hurt each
other, but . . .
BERRY: No. I think they said they were shooting in the air
and either one wasn't trying to hit the other, but they wanted to
let them know, "I don't take nothing from you and you don't take
nothing from me."
WALLACE: From me, exactly. Did you have to be tough to get by
down there? I mean, did you have to . . .
BERRY: No. No, I don't call it tough. You just had to know
your way around because, like they say, everybody was together.
It wasn't mostly the people in the area. It was the outside
people who came in here and caused trouble.
WALLACE: "Tubba" Marshall, do you remember . . .
BERRY: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . very much about "Tubba"?
BERRY: Yeah. Ellsworth ["Tubba" Marshall] and Atkins and
Murin . . . I mean, Murray Condy [Conda] started the Tiger's Inn.
WALLACE: Well, they said "Tubba" was an athlete himself and .
�
. .
BERRY: He was, football player.
WALLACE: And he was an official, too. He could officiate
games.
BERRY: Yeah. He is. Yes, he could. He was very talented.
WALLACE: And was called upon to do so by the whites and
blacks.
BERRY: Yeah. Yeah. He was talented.
WALLACE: Uh, "Squeezer" Brown we already talked about. Jack
Robb, Earl Tracy. Uh, L. Boone Hampton. Artis Quire. Ward
Oates.
BERRY: I've heard those names. They up-town.
WALLACE: Glenn Purdy?
BERRY: I've heard it also.
WALLACE: Henry Mack.
BERRY: H. Mack?
WALLACE: Yeah, H. Mack.
BERRY: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: Now, I don't know much about . . . can you describe
him? I don't . . .
BERRY: Well, I . . . who gave his name?
WALLACE: Uh, might have been Henrietta.
BERRY: I was fixing to say, probably Henrietta. He . . . I
�
don't see much of him . . . H. Mack did because he came here to
attend Kentucky State, which he finished.
WALLACE: Ah. So, he came later on.
BERRY: Yeah. He came later on. Then, he married a girl and
they lived up there on Clinton Street. But I don't see where he
offered too much.
WALLACE: I haven't really called him yet to see if he'd be
willing to talk. He apparently managed a place, or pool . . .
BERRY: He . . . I think he did something like that.
WALLACE: Yeah. The Reverend W. R. Hutchison.
BERRY: Oh, that was my pastor.
WALLACE: Now, he was a vocal opponent of the urban renewal.
He, uh, he spoke out against it.
BERRY: Yes. Uh-huh.
WALLACE: And forcefully, very much so. And, uh, I heard that
he was . . . unfortunately, was killed in a fire.
BERRY: Yes. What I heard.
WALLACE: Thomas Jefferson, Jeff.
BERRY: Yeah, Jeff. Uh-huh. He was married to one of my
best friends. Yeah, now, he was a crusader.
WALLACE: Was Thomas Jefferson a crusader?
BERRY: Yeah. He was good. He would go to bat for you. He
almost had power like Castleman because he knew the right people
�
up-town, too; and you . . . he stood up for you because I
remember one night it was going to be . . . one of the white
girls that was married to Bixie [Benjamin] Fallis . . . in fact,
it was his wife. And she had been a prostitute.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: And, uh, she . . . I don't know what made her do it.
She went up the street and was flaunting herself and she . . .
nobody just looked at her because they knew who she was, and she
went back and told Bixie [Benjamin] that someone insulted her.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: And it caused almost a racial riot. And I don't know
how they . . . some fellows from Shelbyville and Lawrenceburg
came to take up for Jefferson and all the men around there went
home and got their guns. They . . . Jeff went to Bixie
[Benjamin] and told him, said, "Bixie, no one insulted your wife
and better know." Because everybody knew what she was. They sat
there with their guns and when these fellows from other towns
found out, they said, "This is not our war. We're going home."
WALLACE: So, Bixie [Benjamin] called in a bunch of outsiders
to come in . . .
BERRY: We was wondering how they found out that this was
trouble down there in the Bottom. That was one of the biggest
troubles we ever had had. But not a shot was fired.
�
WALLACE: See, I had heard that there weren't no shots, but
there was a fist fight.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: And Thomas Jefferson smacked, uh, it could have been
Bixie over the head with a shovel, sent him to the hospital.
BERRY: Well, they . . . but, see, Bixie [Benjamin], he was
angry; but we couldn't understand it because Bixie [Benjamin]
knew what he had married.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And she just wanted . . . because Bixie [Benjamin]
was in his place of business . . . she had this long flowing
hair. I can see her right now because she was very attractive.
And she made the remark, "None of you niggers want my meat
tonight?"
WALLACE: Shew. She was asking for trouble.
BERRY: And she was asking for it. And, then, when they
didn't say anything, they just looked at her, then she got angry
and went back home and told him that he insulted her.
WALLACE: Nobody made up with her.
BERRY: Made up.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And that's what started it all.
WALLACE: See, I . . . I know Bixie's [Benjamin] second . . .
�
Vivian Fallis.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: A fine Christian woman.
BERRY: Sure enough.
WALLACE: And she, uh . . . I don't know if you ever met her.
BERRY: Is Bixie [Benjamin] still living?
WALLACE: Bixie's [Benjamin] dead. Oh, he . . .
BERRY: I thought so, because he moved me out here. I could
have killed him. My mother always made homemade wine and when I
went to look at my wine, he and the fellow that was helping him
had gone and been drinking out of it at the mouth. Didn't even
get a cup.
WALLACE: Oh, man. [Laughing]
BERRY: And I says . . . I coul- . . . I didn't drink it. I
poured it all out.
WALLACE: Yeah. Bixie [Benjamin] was another one that they
said he's good with his fists and he had a quick temper.
BERRY: Yeah. He had a temper. I knew him. I played with
Bixie [Benjamin].
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: For years. That's what I'm talking about. The
Fallis, we all . . . we all was around there, all the colored
children and all of us. We all . . .
�
WALLACE: Bixie's [Benjamin] second wife, Vivian, was a
minister in a sort of a holiness kind of church for whites.
BERRY: Sure enough?
WALLACE: And she said one time she accidentally stepped on
Bixie's [Benjamin] toe . . .
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . and he turned around and decked her, knocked
her flatter than a pancake.
BERRY: Well, he had a temper.
WALLACE: Yeah. And, then, he made up with her and kiss and
hug. And, I mean, he could just turn right around and be . . .
BERRY: Well, he wasn't as outgoing as his brother, Carlos,
you know. He left to be a . . . become a movie star.
WALLACE: Oh, I didn't know that.
BERRY: And he went out West and, then, uh . . . he was
talented. I think he wanted to be a lawyer or something. And,
then, there was Lassie. I think Lassie's been dead.
WALLACE: Yeah. Carlos came back, didn't he, and was State
Representative or something?
BERRY: Came back here as something.
WALLACE: Yeah. He was . . . he was a big political . . . uh,
I'm going to switch out here because I've done run you into the
ground. [Laughing] I didn't mean to, but I . . . I'm just going
�
to ask a few questions about urban renewal real quick. Do you
remember how you found out about the pro- . . . the urban renewal
project, where you heard about it or read about it or . . .
BERRY: Well, I heard about it before it actually came into
effect.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: I was talking with this fellow and this fellow said
to me then, he said . . . I was living on Blanton Street. Says,
"Mary, your mother's working for some good people. Why don't you
all try to find a place." I said, "What are you talking about,
find a place? We're all right here." He says, "I'm not supposed
to tell it, but they're going to clean out the Bottom." And I
didn't want to believe him. And, then, when it did materialize,
it was just a catastrophe because people just didn't know what
they was going to do. And we . . . we were one of the . . .
almost one of the last movers to move away from down there in
that area because they were tearing down and everything.
WALLACE: When did you leave? When did you all leave, do you
remember?
BERRY: Well, when we left, they was a lot of people still
down there, but they was really after . . . and we was so in
hopes, where the state office building [Capital Plaza Tower] is
now, the one down there on Wilkinson Street, it was like a
�
fountain or something, or a well underneath it. We kept always
hoping that it would sink. [Laughter - Wallace]
WALLACE: The state office building would sink down?
BERRY: Yes, sink on down and where, down there on the corner
of Wilkinson Street, we'd say, "Look at the building sink because
they took it away from us." But, see, all along, they said,
"Well, my gosh, here we thought we were living in a beautiful
area. These people are living in the pretty part of Frankfort."
And that's what they . . . that's why they put a flood wall, so
the water wouldn't get us anymore, because they had a building
down there to protect.
WALLACE: Yes. And you all had been needing flood protection
for . . .
BERRY: Yes. It was sad the way we had to go through that.
WALLACE: The thing that amazed me, flood after flood, people
would come back.
BERRY: Come back. It was home. Where were they going?
They didn't make enough to go establish themselves other places
because the further you got or the better the location, you had
to pay more rent.
WALLACE: Yes. But, uh, somebody told me, said, "Well, the
flood, to us, was . . . it was almost a time to get everybody
together, a big celebration sometimes."
�
BERRY: You had a good time. Wherever you go, everybody had
the little money and you just ate and drank and played cards, and
you'd dance and you told yarns, yes.
WALLACE: So, you just sort of socialized and, then . . .
BERRY: It was.
WALLACE: When the water went down, everybody would go and help
each other.
BERRY: Help each other clean up and move back in there and
everything. You would never know there'd been a flood.
WALLACE: When . . . after you got tipped off about urban
renewal, uh, what was your reaction when the plans were formally
announced and . . .
BERRY: Well, we was . . . everybody was so in hopes that it
would never materialize. But, then, when they started buying up
. . . see, they started buying John Buckner's property and
everything. Then, if your home was owned by a white person, they
would let you know you're going to have to find a place.
WALLACE: Well, did you all fight it, try to fight back?
BERRY: Ye- . . . a lot of them went there and didn't want to
sell their home; but they . . . you don't fight the law. The law
is it.
WALLACE: Well, there were some public hearings; uh, uh, one at
Mayo-Underwood, I think, maybe . . .
�
BERRY: Yes. They had . . . they had . . .
WALLACE: Did you go to any of those?
BERRY: No, because I say it was people that owned property.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: And I said we didn't own no property, there wasn't no
use of us going, because we had been told that we were going to
have to leave.
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, when, uh . . . see, some of the things
that property owners did, they hired some lawyers.
BERRY: They did. A lot of them did.
WALLACE: But nothing ever came of that. Do you know what . .
. why? I mean . . .
BERRY: Uh-huh. We often wondered if the lawyers were in
cahoots with the people up-town.
WALLACE: Because that . . . I've read the names J. S. Carroll
and a man by the name of Julian Knippenberg, and I've read quotes
in the paper. They came in. They went to the Fiscal Court.
They went to the City Council.
BERRY: Yeah. Umhumm.
WALLACE: They made all these statements like, "This is wrong
and we're going to fight it."
BERRY: Fight it, but they didn't.
WALLACE: But nothing ever happened.
�
BERRY: Nothing ever happened.
WALLACE: And I don't under- . . . I remember find . . .
BERRY: We never understood that because we all say the same
thing. They are being paid and they was being double-paid. They
was gypping the people, is what we call it.
WALLACE: Somebody told me that a lot of property owners would
put up as much as $200 or $500.
BERRY: I know it, and they lost it.
WALLACE: They lost it?
BERRY: All of it. They lost it because these lawyers wasn't
doing the right thing. They was taking money from us and we'd
meet people up-town was telling, "Don't do it."
WALLACE: Somebody might have been slipping them some money on
the other side.
BERRY: On the other side. You never know.
WALLACE: When you all got the, uh, notification that you had
to leave, did you have any dealings at all with the urban renewal
officials like, uh, oh, Maurice Scott, uh . . .
BERRY: Only thing we knew that they would tell you that you
would get $500. After your relocation, that you would get that
and, then, they would have somebody to move you.
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: And, so, most of us got $500.
�
WALLACE: And you left in about sixty- [196-] . . .
BERRY: Oh, I can't recall when we moved because that was
aft- . . . made me have to buy . . .
[End of Tape #2, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #2, Side #2]
WALLACE: . . . contact with Frank Lewis or Charles R. Perry.
They were whites that was running that.
BERRY: No. Uh-huh.
WALLACE: They didn't come out to you and talk about . . .
BERRY: No. No.
WALLACE: . . . your options or . . .
BERRY: No. They might have with the group, but not . . .
besides, like I say, I didn't have no parts with that.
WALLACE: Well, when you . . . since you didn't own any
property, I guess you didn't have to worry about getting a price
for your . . .
BERRY: No. Well, we did have to worry because, uh, at that
particular time, we knew Blanton Street from St. Clair, they
weren't coming in there. But, see, they made promises, and
that's what we were looking forward to, those promises, that the
government was going to build homes and you had 40 years to pay
for that home in that area. See, that's what hurt the people
because a lot of us were relying on that and it never did
�
materialize.
WALLACE: Come back in.
BERRY: No. Come back in there to live because that was home
to all of us. We didn't want to go somewhere else and live. And
that's what I have told my mother. We said, "Well, we'll save
our money and when they do, we'll come and we'll buy one of these
homes." But it never did happen. And that's the only thing we
never could understand, what happened to those homes.
WALLACE: Well, in '65 [1965], the Breathitt administration was
looking for a place for a new office tower and, uh, they started
working with the city fathers of Frankfort and the slum clearance
people and, then, the feds, you know, when they used to have the
old post office at Paul Sawyier Library?
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: They were looking for a place to build a building.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And the Corps of Engineers refused to build a
flood wall until they were guaranteed that there would be, uh,
redevelopment money.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: And, see, they got all together . . .
BERRY: Together, yeah.
WALLACE: Everyone got together and they threw out the plans .
�
. .
BERRY: I know it.
WALLACE: . . . for the housing and all that.
BERRY: So, that's what happened to the houses.
WALLACE: That's . . . they threw them out after the Breathitt
administration came in.
BERRY: Well, we was wondering, but this is the first I
heard. We wondered what had happened.
WALLACE: Well, the white officials would say, "We couldn't get
interest from developers to come and build private housing in an
area that flooded."
BERRY: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: And, uh, so we never could get any interest. And my
feeling is they never had pushed it that hard.
BERRY: Pushed it hard. Well . . .
WALLACE: And, then, when this opportunity came along with the
state to build that tower . . .
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: They jumped on it.
BERRY: Jumped it, I know.
WALLACE: And, then, the Corps of Engineers said, "Okay, you
got the tower nailed down. We'll build you the wall."
BERRY: Yes. Yes, yes. Uh-huh.
�
WALLACE: And, then, came the feds, "We'll put our building."
Then, came the Y [YMCA] and they put our building and, then, uh,
Farnham Dudgeon Civic Center, that came in as . . . that was sort
of a bone for KSU.
BERRY: Yeah, that . . . yeah.
WALLACE: Said, "We'll get you an arena here."
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And that would hopefully line up support from KSU.
BERRY: KSU. Umhumm.
WALLACE: What objections did you and your neighbors have to
the project? What, uh . . .
BERRY: Well, it's like you say. We knew that a lot of the
houses was rat-infested, but it was home. We just didn't want
it.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BERRY: Because, uh, like you say, a lot of people still was
making mean wages and they just didn't want to move because they
figured they could not maintain the upkeep of the homes.
WALLACE: Well, when you all had to leave the area, were you
evicted or forced out or you left on your own?
BERRY: We di- . . . no, majority of them, they went, and
they had good jobs. A lot of them then had state jobs. They
went on and bought and built homes. That's why a lot of them's
�
out on Langford and all out . . .
WALLACE: Missouri and [inaudible].
BERRY: . . . in that area. And they laugh about it now and
say, "We needed that push."
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Because we didn't get it and we never have. We did
anything that could avoid it.
WALLACE: Yeah. A lot of them say the same about World War II,
that it helped people, they got opportunities out of World War II
that . . .
BERRY: Umhumm. See, that's where the World Ward II made a
lot of them, these blacks, much more independent.
WALLACE: Some of them went North, got better jobs and money.
BERRY: And better jobs, umhumm.
WALLACE: Let me quickly, uh . . . uh, okay. Do you know why
the project came about? Why did they decide to clear out the
Bottom?
BERRY: That's the $64 question. Well, they said when all
the floods would come, it would be amusing to see the whites
standing on Broadway, intersection of Broadway and Washington
Street, looking to people scampering in boats and trucks getting
their belongings out. And this is what they used to say. I've
heard some of them say it. "Look at the Craw Rats." But, yet,
�
when they . . . when everything was clear up and when they was
making their survey, they realized that this was a prettier area
than where a lot of them were living. And they says, "Well, my
God, those niggers down there are living in a better area, in a
pretty area, when we ought to have it." And that's what they
did.
WALLACE: When they came by and did that survey, did you talk
to the surveyors?
BERRY: No, no, because I was out in service and I was baby
sitting, but I know a lot of people, they fought hard. They
really lost a lot of money. I heard a . . . had a lot of friends
that had put up the money, but you can't beat the system.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: It was already ordained was going to be there.
WALLACE: Well, that's what a lot of people said. It was a
done deal and it didn't matter what we said or did, that nobody
was going to . . .
BERRY: Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: See, there were statements made by white officials
that, "If the people don't want this, then it shouldn't happen."
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: They were just being . . .
BERRY: Well, see, down there, when this . . . this happened,
�
then I recall the words this friend had told me several years.
See, he worked where these people was on the boards and the
people that was on the board, and he overheard. In fact, his
boss-man told this person what was going to happen, and he said,
"If you got a friend, you get that friend out of there now to
help us." And, so, I just didn't see it. I couldn't believe it.
WALLACE: Yeah. I imagine a lot of people were shocked and
just couldn't . . . well, they weren't consulted, were they?
BERRY: They wasn't consulted and it was hurting to think you
had to be uprooted. You had to get rid of your home, and you
know people . . . see, my folks' home was down there because
where we had lived on Blanton Street, Dulin Moss had asked us . .
. he wanted us to sell it because he was in failing health, $800.
What was $800? Nothing.
WALLACE: And you could buy a home for $800.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: See, that's . . . a lot of the elderly people had
their homes paid off and owned them.
BERRY: They owned them. And they were still working, doing
laundry work. They was working. A lot of them, they was too old
to work. How can we afford to move and what is $800, or what is
this $500? What are the other homes going to be? What are they
going to cost?
�
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And that was a question. They just couldn't afford
it and they didn't see it. But those . . . a lot of the younger
people, they was working for the state, it didn't bother them.
They hated it because they didn't want to be uprooted. A lot of
them had . . . I tell you, down in the Bottom, as I told people,
you could eat off anybody's floors. Them people down there, we
were clean.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And we had beautiful home, beautiful furniture and
stuff. They just didn't see themselves uprooted.
WALLACE: And, yet, people called the area a slum or a ghetto.
BERRY: And they didn't know it. They didn't know it.
WALLACE: So, you would not agree . . . you . . . with that
statement.
BERRY: No, I wouldn't, because a slum is [the creation of] a
person that don't have no care for themselves or for their place.
They kept everything . . . everybody had pretty flowers,
everything like that. The homes were clean. I've seen people
get out there and scrub the . . . wash the sidewalk off. People
were clean then. You didn't see a whole lot of trash and stuff
out in the yard.
WALLACE: So, they had pride in their neighborhood.
�
BERRY: We had pride. Everybody had pride.
WALLACE: I . . . I've done run you into the ground. I didn't
mean to go so long, but . . .
BERRY: Well, that's all right. Ain't nothing [inaudible].
WALLACE: I really have two projects going. One is urban
renewal, but other is just life down there. And I enjoy just
getting a better sense of what it was like to live down there.
So, you all came out. You and your mamma came out and you set up
your shop out here and . . .
BERRY: Out . . . out on Blanton Street. Out . . . when I
moved off of Washington Street because we knew Blanton Street
from St. Clair over was not going to be in the urban renewal.
So, we moved there. It . . . the house belonged to First
Corinthian Baptist Church. We moved into there. And, so . . .
but we knew we wouldn't be disturbed. So, a lot of people on
that street, they have gone on; but, see, they eventually took
that street.
WALLACE: And you all had to move again, then.
BERRY: We had to move. We had to move.
WALLACE: Well, how did you all react when you had to move the
second time?
BERRY: Well, second time, I was running around asking
people. And one of the neighbors that lived there, she just died
�
in the last few years, they lived right behind me. I asked her
was any houses out this way because I knew my mother was failing
and it was in walking distance from here to our church. And she
could catch the bus here and go to town. And that's what I was
looking, something easy for her, not for myself. Something easy
for her. And, so, my auntie found this place and that's how come
us here.
WALLACE: Ah, okay. Okay. Well, I don't understand why they
kept expanding the area that they were going to tear down the
houses. It sounds like they started off with a smaller area and,
then, they got it bigger. Somebody told me Mayo-Underwood wasn't
originally slated to be destroyed.
BERRY: It wasn't supposed to be. They said they was going
to leave it there; but when we looked up, it . . . well, they
started breaking windows and things out there. Now, you know how
kids will do. And first thing you knew, it was gone.
Everything. It was pathetic to see them come in. I told
somebody I wouldn't go down there. I never went down there to
see them knock nothing down.
WALLACE: Yeah. You just . . . too painful.
BERRY: It was just hurting. I said, "I just cannot go
there." And that's what, I tell you . . . several of us do. We
just, in our minds, go down the street and name the people who
�
live there and we would say, "You reckon they really turned over
in their grave, if [there is] such a thing as turning over in a
grave, to realize their homes are being demolished and we all had
to leave." But it . . . it was something.
WALLACE: Well, and so many promises were made. That's the
thing that . . when you read the newspaper articles, and I've
been through 20 years' of newspaper articles in the State
Journal, people were told at one point that if you had a good
house on a good lot . . .
BERRY: Umhumm. Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . there was a chance your house might stay.
Well, they knocked everything down.
BERRY: They knocked everything.
WALLACE: They told you that you could buy back and build back.
BERRY: That's what they'd . . . see, that's what a lot of
them was building their hopes on. And this is what I heard
through the grapevine. Because John Buckner owned so much
property, I think they only gave him $250,000 and said, "That's
enough for him. We won't . . ." I wonder, often wonder, if he
ever got all the rest of his money.
WALLACE: Ah.
BERRY: Because, see, $250,000, that's a whole lot of money
for a black person to have and he didn't need it because he was
�
already a rich man.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: A rich man. So, whether he ever got the rest of his
money, we don't know. But that's a thing that hurt because a lot
of us that was beginning to save was having hopes of going back
into that area because that was it. It wasn't no office building
or nothing going to be down here.
WALLACE: Well, see, the original plans called for residential
housing, a park, and there was something about a shopping center
. . .
BERRY: That's . . . shopping center, that's what it was
supposed to be.
WALLACE: . . . on the corner.
BERRY: And when we looked up, here come this tall building.
That's why all of us said we hoped that the water underneath
would have the . . . that the building would sink.
WALLACE: Would take it with it. [Laughter] Take it with it.
Well, a lot of the property owners, black property owners, that
did hold out for a better price and went to court . . . one
person I talked to claimed that some of their houses were burned
under mysterious circumstances. Have you heard anything?
BERRY: No, because, see, I tell you, when I . . . we left,
we burned our bridges behind us. We . . . I didn't go in that
�
area at all and I have had several ladies who said they lived
there say . . . one lady said if she hadn't had to go down there
for something, she didn't intend to ever set her foot in that
area, period.
WALLACE: So, there's . . . there's still a lot of . . .
BERRY: It was a lot of resentment.
WALLACE: Still a lot of anger.
BERRY: It's still . . . it's still there, because when you
have promises and, then, when people in authority don't keep
up, it does something to you.
WALLACE: Yeah. I've run into that on a person. Once trust is
broken, it's awful hard . . .
BERRY: It's tough. Yes, it is.
WALLACE: It's just tough for anybody.
BERRY: Umhumm.
WALLACE: Well, I appreciate it. I . . . if there are people
that you feel would know and be willing to talk to me and be
helpful, if there was only three people that I should talk to,
who would it be? Who would you recommend?
BERRY: Well, let . . . let me tell you the truth. Now, the
. . . most of the people that would actually really know the
Bottom, they're gone. Now, just like I told one of the ladies, I
says, now, Annie Mary Wren, she lived in that area up there where
�
everything was going on. She would have an insight better than a
lot of them; but one little lady, because I remember names and
where people lived and the business, she . . . she would try to
get me to talk to some more people before you came along, and I
told her that I didn't care to be bothered because I just didn't
want to be interviewed.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: And, so, uh, she said, "Well, Mary Helen, you know.
You don't forget. You know the people. You know where this
was." And I said, "I don't care. You did, too. You were down
there." She says, "But I don't remember people's name and
places," because she was asking me the other day of a family and
I told her wasn't no such house in that area. And, then, I told
her today, the lady that she was . . . I says, "Well, what was
you worrying about the house?" She says, "Well, I just remember
the house." I said, "I thought you would remember the people
that lived there." Because I recall the people's names. Like I
say, if my name was Mary Helen, they would say, "Hello, Mary," or
"Mary Helen" or "Helen Berry." Well, I knew a lot of people by
their first name because my grandmother, she would call, "Why,
hello, Nan." I would say, "How are you, Miss Nan." That's all I
would know. I wouldn't know the last names, period, unless
somebody said, "That's Mrs. So-and-so."
�
WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah.
BERRY: That's the way . . . and my mother used to say, "How
do you remember?" I says, "Well, that's what I'm gifted with,"
that was being my memory.
WALLACE: Excellent memory.
BERRY: Yeah, and I says, I remembered. I remember people,
what they did and all of that.
WALLACE: Well, I appreciate the time that . . . that you've
given me.
BERRY: Well, I hope I've been helpful.
WALLACE: If there's anybody that you think I should talk to
that still may not have been there all the time, but you think
would be helpful, uh, I've got a lot of people. But if you've
got a second, let me just . . . I know I keep signing off and
then keep dragging it out, but I'll show you who I'm trying to
get hold of. I've talked to James T. Graham.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And I'd like to talk to Paul, his brother.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And there's the mamma and she's not . . . Henry Mack.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Uh, Ella Sanders.
BERRY: Now, she was up there.
�
WALLACE: Sam Parker.
BERRY: That's his sister. She's his sister.
WALLACE: Uh, Ms. McClain.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: She decided not to talk, but we . . . we had a good .
. . Naomi Carr.
BERRY: Well, now, Ms. Carr wouldn't know too much about
nothing like that. She came on in later years.
WALLACE: See, I don't . . .
BERRY: She don't know anything about it. Now . . .
WALLACE: Bertie Sa- . . .
BERRY: Bertie lived up in there.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Margaret and Henry Ellis.
BERRY: They didn't know too much. They're a little younger
than I am, but . . .
WALLACE: Elizabeth Oglesby, who you said we'd talk to her.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Anna Belle Williams.
BERRY: Why would they call on her? She came later when all
of this was mostly over.
WALLACE: Oh, really? See, I don't know much . . .
�
BERRY: The Bottom was still there; but, see, she . . . we
were born here. Anna Belle prob- . . . I don't know if Anna
Belle was born here or in Chicago; but I mean to say these are
people that came into Frankfort later on. They wasn't reared
here and up in the Bottom like the majority was.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
BERRY: That's what I'm trying to say.
WALLACE: They came . . . they came later.
BERRY: Yeah. See, I'm through the Bottom going to church
and going to school.
WALLACE: Ah. And these people so far, that I've mentioned,
really were not . . .
BERRY: Yeah. Some of those, uh-huh.
WALLACE: Of course, Ellsworth Marshall, Jr. I've talked to.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: George and Leona Chiles, but somebody said they . . .
they were gone for a long time.
BERRY: Well, but they were here during the Bottom era. This
. . . this is my nephew and he's married to her.
WALLACE: Okay. Well, do I have the right . . . East Fourth
Street that's in there?
BERRY: Yes. East . . . yes, East Fourth Street. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Okay. I haven't found a phone number. Are they in
�
the book or . . .
BERRY: It's in her mother's name, Sadie Wooldridge.
WALLACE: Sadie Wooldridge.
BERRY: And, listen, don't you tell her I told you.
WALLACE: Oh.
BERRY: They . . . just write Sadie Wooldridge you want to do
it . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
BERRY: And just tell somebody, say you don't know, but write
Sadie Wooldridge down.
WALLACE: Do you have a pencil? I don't even have a pen on me.
BERRY: Yeah. Oh, I should give you the telephone number.
WALLACE: Oh, if you've got it, that . . .
BERRY: 223-
WALLACE: Okay. Thank you. 223-
BERRY: 1402.
WALLACE: 1402. Now, Sadie had been related to Ernest
Wooldridge?
BERRY: Sister-in-law.
WALLACE: Ah, okay. Here's the . . .
BERRY: Okay, umhumm. Now, if she asked you, said, someone
was talking to me, don't tell her that you talked to me.
WALLACE: I talked . . . okay. I've talked to so many.
�
BERRY: Say, someone, I don't know. Somebody gave me you
all's name. But, now, George would remember a whole lot because
he had relatives up in that area, too. Now, George might
remember a whole lot.
WALLACE: This is your sister, isn't it, Katherine . . .
BERRY: No. Bessie Anderson.
WALLACE: Oh, I'm sorry. I've got the wrong . . . uh, I tried
to talk to her. She's not feeling good. She got an artificial
hip that ain't doing right at all.
BERRY: Katherine Fletcher?
WALLACE: Helen Taylor.
BERRY: Helen Taylor, yeah. Now, they are sisters.
WALLACE: Yeah. I haven't been able to reach Ms. Fletcher, but
I did talk to Ms. Taylor and she had agreed to talk to me.
BERRY: Well, good.
WALLACE: Maggie, I spoke to Ms. Knott.
BERRY: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: And had a good conversation with her. Mattie Brown?
BERRY: Yes. Well, see, they came later; but, see, then, I
think they was brought up . . . they was in this all along. See,
they came from Greenhill somewhere and they wasn't down here.
Now, Mary Chenault, now, she was "Papa Jazz's" sister.
WALLACE: Ah, okay.
�
BERRY: Now, she wo- . . . she would know.
WALLACE: Yeah. And she . . . she said, uh . . . I've finished
a first draft of my urban renewal paper and I sent it over to
Helen Evans over at the . . .
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And she said she would look at that and she would
think about it.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: She seemed a little reluctant.
BERRY: But she's . . . she's not an outgoing person.
Uh-huh.
WALLACE: Isaac Fields, I talked to Isaac.
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: And Charles I haven't reached yet, Charles Fields.
BERRY: Yes. He works at Blue Bonnet, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah. Is that the Blue Bonnet up on Louisville?
BERRY: Yes. Umhumm.
WALLACE: Okay. Uh, Howard, Carletta, uh . . .
BERRY: Yes.
WALLACE: On Langford. I haven't got their number yet.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Henry Sanders, who I did speak with.
BERRY: Yeah.
�
WALLACE: Uh, of course, yourself.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Dr. Cheaney knows a lot and . . . but he's . . . he's
going to write some things. He said, "I'd rather write some
things to you than talk."
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: George I spoke with.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Mary Emma Ellis I . . . she's agreed to talk to me.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: But her . . . I think it was her daughter-in-law,
"Buddy's" wife . . .
BERRY: Who died. Yes.
WALLACE: "Buddy" I'd like to talk to because he drove for Dr.
Underwood, didn't he?
BERRY: Yes. He . . . he was . . . done the . . . I don't
know about "Buddy", but George Halleck drove for Dr. Underwood
mostly. "Buddy" might have in the lat- . . . I don't recall
"Buddy" driving Dr. Underwood.
WALLACE: Those are some of the people, and James Calhoun.
Now, he . . . he . . . I talked to him and he said he will call
me, but he is willing to talk to me. He was down there.
BERRY: Umhumm. Umhumm.
�
WALLACE: And, uh, I've got some white . . . white people I
hope to talk to. Oh, Frank Lewis is still around and he helped
on the urban. The only man who's turned me down . . . there's
only been one man that turned me down. And [it was] that white
man who ran the urban renewal, Charles R. Perry.
BERRY: You don't mean it.
WALLACE: He said, no, he would not talk.
BERRY: Well, he figured he'd give away something.
WALLACE: Well, and he was hated.
BERRY: Well, [inaudible].
WALLACE: I mean he was out and out hated by people, and I
suspect he doesn't want to walk through a lot of old ground.
BERRY: Well, I imagine not. I wouldn't want to either.
WALLACE: And Gene Hines, if I can find Gene. He's gone, left
the community. He came in after Charles Perry left and he ran
urban renewal, and I'd like to talk to Gene.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Oh, Jack Rhorer was big in urban renewal.
BERRY: Yeah. Yeah.
WALLACE: And, uh, Frank Sower.
BERRY: Frank Sower.
WALLACE: He's another one that keeps his cards real . . .
BERRY: He used to be the, uh, mayor, wasn't it?
�
WALLACE: Yeah. And his son John was the mayor.
BERRY: Yeah, John. Is Frank Sower still living?
WALLACE: Oh, yeah. He's still around.
BERRY: Well, I wish . . . he's down on, uh, Wilkinson
Street?
WALLACE: Yeah. Down at the very end.
BERRY: Well, I . . . I didn't know it.
WALLACE: Yeah, he's still around.
BERRY: Well, you know, there's a lot of people didn't care
too much for him. They said he turned turn-coat.
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, he was tied in with the Sullivans, Pat
and Paul Sullivan. A lot . . .
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: A lot of resentment against the Sullivans, too.
BERRY: Yeah, I know it. I know it.
WALLACE: Because they was big and running the town.
BERRY: Well, see, but I haven't . . . because, see, Pat
Sullivan was the one, because he knew my family and background,
he's the one let me have the money from the bank. And, so, when
people do nice things . . . of course, I'll tell you, it's . . .
it's within you, how you carry yourself. There's a lot of
people, you cannot trust. I wouldn't trust them all with myself.
WALLACE: Yeah. Everybody gives me a little bit different
�
aspect of the story . . .
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . because they all had different experiences.
BERRY: Yeah, umhumm.
WALLACE: Well, those are the people I'm trying to talk to.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: Maybe some of them weren't raised here or didn't grow
up and go through here, but they might be helpful.
BERRY: Well, you . . . you can always find something from
some of them.
WALLACE: I want to do something that's honest and right and,
hopefully, it'll turn out accurate. I'll send you a copy of the
first draft of my urban renewal. And it doesn- . . . it deals
just with urban renewal . . .
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . from about 1958 to '65 [1965], and let you take
a look at that and see what you think. But, uh, if you hear of
people, your friends talk about this crazy white guy . . .
BERRY: Oh, Lord, no.
WALLACE: . . . you tell them he's okay.
BERRY: No, he wouldn't do that. Now, because I'm . . . I'm
just like this. If they don't want to be bothered, they will
tell you; but the majority of us are honest. Because when they
�
worried me, when they first came out in the paper, this lady told
some people . . . some people on the campus is the one that took
it up themselves, and this girl says, "I got the person." Said,
"Lord, she can tell you everything and tell you where people live
and tell you what they did and everything." And she called me
and I says, "No, indeedy. I don't care to be bothered." Because
I'm going to tell you how . . . I said, "I know this is somebody
off the campus. They snooped it and I don't want to be bothered
with no snoopy person."
WALLACE: I'll tell you one of the reasons I'm doing this is
when . . . when you all pass on, nobody's going to remember.
BERRY: The history.
WALLACE: It's going to be gone.
BERRY: Yeah.
WALLACE: And I think it would be a real tragedy if it isn't .
. .
BERRY: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: These tapes will be turned over to the Library and
Archives. You know that big building they got out on the
Connector?
BERRY: I know it. Yeah.
WALLACE: And the tapes are going to go to the Oral History
Commission and they'll be available for the use of scholars and
�
researchers. Uh, there is a . . . I'll show it if I can find it.
[inaudible] and talk later. We're coming up on time and I don't
want you to shoot me.
[End of Interview]
�PAGE �1�
�PAGE �1�
1:00