1992OH1.1 Brooks
Frankfort’s Craw Oral History Project
Interview with R.T. Brooks
March 25, 1991.
Conducted by James Wallace
© 1991 Kentucky Oral History Commission
Kentucky Historical Society
Kentucky Oral History Commission
100 W. Broadway ( Frankfort, KY 40601
502-564-1792 ( (fax) 502-564-0475 ( history.ky.gov
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The following interview is an unrehearsed interview with R.
T. Brooks for "Frankfort's 'Craw:' An African-American Community
Remembered." The interview was conducted by James E. Wallace in
Frankfort, Kentucky, March 25, 1991.
[An interview with R. T. Brooks]
BROOKS: On Washington Street, and Wash- . . . that part of
Washington Street is no longer there, see. When you get down to
Broadway or to the railroad track from Harrod Brothers, which is
a funeral home up there . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . when you cross the street, Washington Street
was the same width and run all the way to the . . . was . . . to
the, uh, Fort Hill.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Run completely to Fort Hill, and that was Hill
Street, you know.
WALLACE: So, did Estill own the Peachtree or did he . . .
BROOKS: Well, see, that's where John Fallis owned when he got
killed.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: As a matter of fact, he intended to go to bed and had
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prepared to go to bed and had taken his pistol off. See, he
carried a .45 automatic . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: . . . in his hip pocket.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: And he had gone up and, course, see, he's . . . he's
Betty's grandfather. Ms. Fallis is very religious.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: But John Fallis was a handsome man.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: And he was a debonair . . . he was like Robin Hood,
you know.
WALLACE: That's what I've heard him compared to, Robin Hood.
BROOKS: You would have to compare him to Robin Hood in
Sherwood Forest [laughter] according to the people that he was
around. There was an air about him that people respected, you
know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And he demanded respect. When he walked down the
street, everybody said, "There goes John Fallis" [laughing], if
he walked. Of course, he had a Willis Knight, and he was
probably the only guy that had a big car because, see, he
bootlegged and . . . well, they didn't call it bootlegging then,
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I don't think [laughter], but that was what he was . . .
WALLACE: Just he was [inaudible].
BROOKS: . . . because he run a grocery at 701 Wilkinson
Street. That's where he built, see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Now, this is where the Tower sits.
WALLACE: Okay. Now, wait and let me understand, okay. He had
a grocery at the Peachtree site before he built?
BROOKS: No . . . yeah . . . well, yeah, before.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: This is prior to the Peachtree Inn, prior to getting
in with these other women, see.
WALLACE: Okay. [Laughing]
BROOKS: That's when Ms. Fallis and him was young. Matter of
fact, they one time lived down here at . . . at the next stop
light down where you turn back and used to go by Heck's, if you
know . . .
WALLACE: Yeah, sure.
BROOKS: . . . where Reilly Road is.
WALLACE: Reilly Road, yeah.
BROOKS: On the left there was a . . . Betty's mother was born
in that house, see, and . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
BROOKS: Course, that is probably at the turn of the century,
see. And, uh . . .
WALLACE: Well, let me . . . let me ask you a little bit about
John Fallis. I have it that he was born in 1879 in
Jeffersonville, Indiana and his parents were Ben and Annie
Fallis. Is that . . .
BROOKS: I . . . I . . . I don't really know his parents. I
think . . . I know he had a sister named, uh, Mabel.
MRS. BROOKS: I've heard Granny say that his mother was a part .
. . was a Cherokee Indian.
BROOKS: Was part Cherokee Indian, yeah.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: Yeah. And, see, that's where he had a . . . kindly .
. . . and he was a handsome boy . . . guy.
MRS. BROOKS: Yeah.
BROOKS: This guy. He had black eyes and, uh, dark, kind of
high cheekbones.
WALLACE: Dark hair.
MRS. BROOKS: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And he was. Now, I remember these pictures of Ms.
Fallis and him when they were probably twenty years old. It hung
on her wall.
MRS. BROOKS: Yes, she was . . .
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BROOKS: And Vivian would . . . see, Bixie's [Benjamin Fallis]
sexon wife . . . Bixie . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Second.
WALLACE: Second.
BROOKS: See, Ms. Fallis named her children after . . .
usually she was very religious.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And after like Benjamin Franklin. That's the
Benjamin, see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Then, of course, John, everybody is John. But, see,
John is also named John Russell.
WALLACE: Ahh.
MRS. BROOKS: This says John Richard. Bixie's name was . . .
BROOKS: I thought his name was John Russell.
MRS.BROOKS: Carlos was called Russell . . .
BROOKS: Carlos Russell, and, then, there was John, Jr.
MRS. BROOKS: Well, I think . . .
WALLACE: They could be wrong in that, see.
MRS. BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: That's the thing.
MRS. BROOKS: I think there's two . . .
WALLACE: Well, they do have an . . . a sort of a Robin Hood
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aspect about him . . .
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And I talked to your wife a little bit . . . that he
would help people who needed money or needed food from the
grocery store.
BROOKS: Oh, he would buy coal by the carload . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . see, and, then, he run this grocery and he did
do those kind of things. And he would . . . you know, people
then, when they'd buy something, they would put it on a tab . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . you know . . .
WALLACE: Sort of like a credit line.
BROOKS: . . . and they never paid him. But it was all
right. He would . . . if they were poor, he . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . or he may, if they were destitute, it didn't
matter whether they were black or white.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: He would send them coal or food, you know.
WALLACE: There's a story in that little handout I brought
where a mountaineer comes down and relocated into Frankfort and
his . . . one of his family members dies.
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BROOKS: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: And he has no money to bury this family member.
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And John . . .
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . gives him money . . .
BROOKS: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: . . . to . . . to . . . for the funeral, I guess . .
.
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . is what it was.
BROOKS: Well, see, I hadn't always lived in this area, but
when, uh . . . when I first moved over in . . . I was probably
six years old. But my grandmother lived next door to him. See,
he built that house at 701. He built 703 and he built 705
[laughing] which was . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . all one . . . and, then, the store was on the
corner of Hill and Wilkinson Street . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: . . . where the hill started . . . that's the
beginning of Fort Hill we call it, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
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BROOKS: If you know Fort Hill, see. When you went in to
Washington Street, there was a road turned up, a little lane that
you went up in horse and buggy days, now, and Sandy Kring, Sandy
Kring, K-r-i-n-g, had about four children. He lived up on top of
Fort Hill.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: Right on the very crest. And he was the jailer a
couple of times in Frankfort.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: And there was probably . . . there was Freda and
James and, uh, Charles and, uh . . .
WALLACE: So, the . . . the Fallis family, John and his wife,
after they built those homes, then, lived above the store?
BROOKS: Yeah. He lived over the store. That was part of it.
Now, his residence was right over the store.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: And, uh, of course, like I say, they bootlegged in
those days, see. And I remember the old chimney, see. There was
the store part, is that picture . . . she showed it to you.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Right there. That was the store, see. The house,
residence, is up over that, see. You can see . . . he kept a
neat store. If you'll look, you can see . . .
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WALLACE: Oh, yeah.
BROOKS: . . . how neat that . . .
WALLACE: It's very well organized.
BROOKS: Uh-huh. Well, see, overhead, particular to this end,
right behind this was a storage area where he kept extra
groceries.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And, then, there was a . . . where he . . . a garage
where he could drive in the same building . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And, then, there was another building back of that
that was storage. But he had a chimney in there where you could
put a heater. But the chimney was not a chimney. It was . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: . . . basically because there was another chimney
upstairs. But that's where he put his . . .
WALLACE: You could store things in that chimney, couldn't you?
[Laughing]
BROOKS: Yes, sir. That chimney was built with a . . .
because I seen the tank it was built around, see. And that's
where he could have . . . where he could take . . . and he could
fill up bottles or whatever . . .
WALLACE: Whatever.
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BROOKS: . . . he needed.
WALLACE: Did he actually brew his own . . .
BROOKS: No, he never . . .
WALLACE: . . . or he just . . .
BROOKS: . . . brewed his own, uh-uh.
WALLACE: He got it . . . he got it and brought it in.
BROOKS: No, Nelson County, I think.
WALLACE: Let me ask you. I've heard that besides a grocery
business that he was a boat builder and a river man . . .
BROOKS: Oh, [laughing] yeah. He faked suicide one time.
WALLACE: Yeah. I . . . the story I hear and you can . . .
BROOKS: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: He and his wife sort of got maybe a little crosswise
. . .
BROOKS: Well, see, he was going to old Ida Howard.
[Laughing] That's what Ms. Fallis calls her.
WALLACE: Uh-huh.
BROOKS: And she was a good looking woman, but she was a lady
of the town.
WALLACE: Oh.
BROOKS: And she was very religious. And she'd said, "That's"
. . . she'd call him a "slink". Said, "That 'slink' ain't going
to touch me after being with that old Ida Howard," [laughter] you
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know. And she lived around . . . she was a lady of the town and
she was a good looking woman.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: And I remember her very well, you know. And . . .
and, of course, the man . . . see, there's another child, if you
don't have them all. Doug Fallis was another one.
WALLACE: Ahh. No, I don't believe I have.
BROOKS: He's an ill- . . . well, I always called him
illegitimate because he married Anna Mae Blackwell who was Anna
Mae Shearer.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: But she was probably the Sophia Loren of the time,
see.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: She was that good looking a woman. Matter of fact,
when he goed to bed that night he got killed, he had prepared to
go up and go to bed. And he was in his shirt sleeves.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And he had taken his gun out and, uh, this guy come
by, and Rigsby from Lexington . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . and wanted to play some cards, you know. And
they said he . . . of course, see, he shot Guy Wainscott, shot
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his stomach and his liver in two.
WALLACE: Well, that's what I heard that there was a gun battle
and he was in the store and the policeman . . . he must have shot
three or four of them.
BROOKS: Oh, he did. He killed one, but Guy Wainscott was the
chief . . . but he wa- . . . at the time, he wasn't the chief . .
.
WALLACE: Well, why were they coming for him? Was it because
of . . .
BROOKS: Well, they'd had some trouble with Carlos, one of the
boys. There had been a . . . well, you have to remember . . .
before . . . before there was a Mayo-Underwood School on the
corner of Wilkinson . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . and, uh, Mero.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: But before that, there was a white school there.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: See, there was another school. Now, I . . . I even
went to that school. So, I know, to me, the Mayo-Underwood was a
new school. And this was a black school they built . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . particularly for the blacks. But in that yard
�
was enough room that they could have a carnival and circus, see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And Carlos and them was down there and they got into
a big fight with the carnival and the police come along. And
they even set John Fallis's house . . . this thing on fire.
WALLACE: Ahh, yeah.
BROOKS: And . . . and when he had the gun, that's where that
gun battle came in.
WALLACE: Do you know what year that was when that gun battle,
you know . . .
BROOKS: It had to be, like, '28 [1928] or '26 [1926] . . .
WALLACE: Yeah, the late twenties [1920's] before he was
killed?
BROOKS: Twenty-eight [1928], yeah, it was in the twenties
[1920's]. And, of course, he got killed August of '29 [1929],
see.
WALLACE: Umhumm. But I never understood why Rigsby shot him.
What did he have against him?
BROOKS: Well, he . . . they said it was a clique with the
police because, see, they . . . everybody . . . the policemen
feared John Fallis and one . . . like they say, the king of Craw,
that's what he was. He was the king of that section. He was
like John Dillinger . . . or not John Dillinger but Al Capone or
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somebody. [Laughter] But, anyhow, he ruled the roost [laughing]
from Hill Street to Broadway and from the river to . . . up to
back of the old state house, see. Where the old statehouse is,
they called it the capitol grounds up there, the Old Capitol.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: The Statehouse. All of the old people call that the
Statehouse yard, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And even I do. They called the Craw section, they
called it the Bottom.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: That was the nickname.
WALLACE: When you say he's king, like, if . . . if I wanted to
sell bootleg whiskey or if I wanted to set up a gambling
operation, I had to go to John Fallis and . . .
BROOKS: Yeah . . .
WALLACE: . . . get his permission?
BROOKS: You probably worked under his rules, see. He was the
king of the roost. And he got the best people he could get to
run his bars, you know. Now, you couldn't sell whiskey then; I
mean, legal whiskey.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: But you could sell beer.
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WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: See, they had beer like the old saloons back in the
old days. I remember Ishmael [Fallis] and I used to go through
there. See, I lived out the Lawrenceburg Road, but, then, we
moved to town once. I lived in the country at Bald Knob one time
and we moved to town once, and we always got hooked up with the
Fallises some way, you know. Fallis, they called them Fallis. I
know it's . . . they say Fallis and all of that, but Fallis is
the way they say it.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: But it's F-a-l-l-i-s.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: And, uh, we'd get in . . . I'd come to town and I'd
stay to their house awhile. But, see, but John Fallis was living
up there with Anna Mae then.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And they had one child like I told you whose name was
Doug, Douglas, and he lives in . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Corbin? Corbin, I think.
BROOKS: What is it? I had . . . I got . . . he's in
plastics. Corbin, Kentucky.
MRS. BROOKS: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And he's got his own plastic shop and he comes here
�
and . . . he tried to . . . he needed some money and he wasn't .
. . see, Bruce runs . . . our oldest son, runs the bank.
MRS. BROOKS: Here's a picture of Grandpa.
BROOKS: Yeah, that's him.
MRS. BROOKS: And this one. I don't know . . .
BROOKS: You can see. He's a debonair man.
WALLACE: He is a very handsome man.
MRS. BROOKS: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Yes, sir.
WALLACE: There's no question about it.
BROOKS: Umhumm.
WALLACE: This would have been sometime probably in the early
twenties maybe.
BROOKS: I would say that's in the twenties [1920's], yeah.
And he wore a little derby hat a lot, too, besides one like that
and he wore a suit a lot of times.
MRS. BROOKS: Somebody has touched this picture up. I like that
one there.
BROOKS: Now, there . . . that's a picture of him. That's a
later one, I believe.
WALLACE: That's been hand-colored. You can see where they've
put in . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Yeah.
�
BROOKS: Uh-huh.
WALLACE: They've put in the red on his cheeks and . . . and
done his lips.
MRS. BROOKS: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Yeah. Well, now, that . . . that one is something
like the one that she used to have on the wall, Vivian, and,
then, she had one of Ms. Fallis . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Oh, and they were . . .
BROOKS: . . . when they was very young.
MRS. BROOKS: I think Marvin's got Grandpa's picture.
BROOKS: Uh-huh. Yeah, Marvin . . . see, Bixie [Benjamin]
had four children by . . .
MRS. BROOKS: By his first marriage.
BROOKS: . . . his first marriage. And, then, he had . . .
MRS. BROOKS: So, this is a picture of my mother.
BROOKS: . . . Bendaline by another one. So, now, this is her
mother.
MRS. BROOKS: But that's not a real good picture, but it's all I
got.
BROOKS: Yeah. Anna Lee was a good looking gal . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . but she was only 24 when she got killed in a
car wreck.
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MRS. BROOKS: She was killed in a car wreck.
WALLACE: She was in a car wreck.
MRS. BROOKS: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And, uh, you know . . . that is a good picture of
Anna Lee because I can remember but Betty can't.
MRS. BROOKS: I think Mamma was 16 when that was taken. That was
up on Hill Street right by the house, but, uh . . .
BROOKS: I'll give you something. This is . . . this has to
be in the, uh, twenties [1920's] or thirties [1930's]; twenties
[1920's], I imagine.
MRS. BROOKS: Well, Mamma died in 19 . . .
BROOKS: Thirty-two [1932].
MRS. BROOKS: . . . 32 [1932]. Grandpa died in 19 . . .
WALLACE: Very nice picture.
BROOKS: Well, you can tell by the old car. See, that's a
teenage car [laughing].
MRS. BROOKS: That's one of the boys, isn't it?
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, they say that Mr. Fallis used to run logs down
the Kentucky River.
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Is one of the things he was involved in.
BROOKS: I tell you, he was involved with baseball, too. He
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loved baseball.
WALLACE: Oh, really? I never heard this. What . . .
BROOKS: Well, I've seen pictures that he sponsored teams, you
know, and who is . . . maybe . . . maybe . . . was it Mary Rose
that's got these pictures of the . . .
MRS. BROOKS: I don't have any . . .
BROOKS: He would sponsor a team, you know.
MRS. BROOKS: I don't know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Now, this had to be Willie Willis and Sam Harp . . .
MRS. BROOKS: But they're dead now.
BROOKS: But these people are all dead.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: But he sponsored baseball teams and he loved
baseball.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: Yeah. See, he wasn't a bad guy.
WALLACE: No, that's . . .
MRS. BROOKS: No, [inaudible].
BROOKS: But at the time he faked this . . . you was talking
about boat building. He blowed that thing up, see, with dynamite
and put, uh, put cow bones and everything else [laughter -
Wallace] in there, and they was dragging for him and looking for
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him, see. They said, "Well, John Fallis got blowed up down
there." Well, he set it up because this was a shanty boat. But
a lot of people lived on the river then.
WALLACE: But you say he did . . . because he and wife had a
falling out . . .
BROOKS: They were out . . . and his son and the police was
after him, see.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: And, uh, Judy, who is our daughter-in-law, her grand-
. . . her grandfather is the only guy could come and get him and
he could say . . . he said that Orville Harrod could come and get
him without any gun or anything. Or, he gave up to him, matter
of fact, after . . . after this was all over. He watched them
drag for him and he was up on Fort Hill watching them.
[Laughter]
WALLACE: Oh . . .
BROOKS: They were dragging for him, see. He had blowed that
up and, uh . . . and, uh, Ms. . . . you know, they said . . .
well, I don't think it was for any insurance. It was . . . that
was just to get them off of his . . .
WALLACE: Back.
BROOKS: Get them off his back.
WALLACE: Yeah. They said he went south and worked as a
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carpenter down in St. Charles, Louisiana. That's what in this
little handout. I don't know if that's true or not.
BROOKS: Well, I . . . I don't know about that because, see, I
knowed him in later years. And I remember when I was . . . I was
probably only two blocks from when he got killed when I was a kid
because I remember the headline says "John Fallis Killed" and you
can . . .
MRS. BROOKS: What did it call him? He was the czar or . . .
BROOKS: The king of Craw, is dead.
MRS. BROOKS: King of Craw . . .
BROOKS: That's the way they said it.
MRS. BROOKS: Yeah.
BROOKS: The king of Craw.
WALLACE: Well, I . . . I heard a story where he was at a dance
one time and he had taken a shine to a young lady who was there
and apparently irritated her escort. [Laughter] And this fellow
stepped up to him and they got in a knife fight.
BROOKS: Umhumm.
WALLACE: And he stuck this guy a good one and the fellow
recovered, though. Had you heard anything . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Wonder who it was?
WALLACE: It's in there, in that little . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Oh, is it in here?
�
WALLACE: It's in there. Apparently . . .
BROOKS: That could be true, now. He . . . he was in all
kinds of battles, but he was a ladies man, too. Ms. Fallis,
since she's so religious, she wouldn't let him touch her. He'd
come down and he didn't pay no bit of attention to her anyway.
I've been there and he'd come in and give her a big kiss and she
. . . [Laughter]
WALLACE: She'd back away real quick.
BROOKS: Oh, she didn't . . . she didn't want him to, but I
believe she did.
WALLACE: Yeah. [Laughter] What . . . you said she was a
minister?
BROOKS: Well, yeah. She, uh . . . she was very religious,
you know, and she held her own . . . she'd hold meetings on
corners, street corners, and in that store. I've . . . she had
them in the store that we're talking about, where . . . wherever
that picture is.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Anyhow, that very same store, see. She's had
meetings in there with, uh . . . and sing and even had Betty sing
and she can really sing good, but this was when she was a little
girl back . . .
WALLACE: Well, your wife was telling me that, uh, somebody
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would come up and ask Ms. Fallis to come pray with them . . .
BROOKS: Oh, yeah, she would go with anybody. And she was
very prominent, yeah. She was . . . she was, uh, kind of a faith
healer, you know, and all this stuff.
MRS. BROOKS: People would send handkerchiefs.
BROOKS: Yeah, for her pray about . . .
MRS. BROOKS: [Inaudible] from other states.
WALLACE: Ahh, good grief.
MRS. BROOKS: Umhumm.
BROOKS: She would write, uh, a lot of religious songs and . .
.
MRS. BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, let me . . .
BROOKS: But, see, she was so religious, John Fallis wasn't
about to live with her or she wasn't about to let him [laughter -
Wallace], but . . . so, he lived with Anna Mae, you know. And
Anna Mae, see, she . . . she had had two children by Blackwell
and I knew Lewis and Marshall Blackwell. And she was a handsome
woman.
WALLACE: So, let me understand. He never divorced Anna Lee?
BROOKS: I don't think he did. I . . .
WALLACE: He wasn't living with her, though. He lived with
this . . .
�
BROOKS: No, he lived over the Peachtree Inn. See, he built
this building and this is a huge building. It was between
Washington and, uh, Broadway and Clinton Street on Washington,
right in the middle of the block.
WALLACE: That was the Peachtree?
BROOKS: That was the Peachtree Inn. See, next to the
Peachtree Inn, you come down and you got Alex Gordon who is a
notorious guy. I don't know if you ever heard the word Alex
Gordon, but he run . . .
WALLACE: No . . .
BROOKS: . . . a liquor store and he was notorious as John
Fallis.
WALLACE: Ahh. No, I had not heard . . .
BROOKS: Then . . . then, next door to that was, uh . . . that
was . . . he run a grocery, too, like John Fallis and a liquor
store or . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Well, liquor store later when it became legal to be
liquor stores . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: But he run saloons before that. They called them
saloons, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
�
BROOKS: And the one on the corner of, uh, I was thinking that
on the corner of Clinton and Washington is the center of Craw
because that's where the water came up out of the sewers first.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: And that's where it got its Craw name.
WALLACE: Well, that's what I was going to ask you. I had some
questions just about is . . . I've heard the story Craw got its
name from crawdads.
BROOKS: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: The water would come up and the crawdads get caught
in the drains and everything.
BROOKS: Yeah. But you could tell when the river was rising,
it came up right on the corner . . . that corner first, out of
the sewer.
WALLACE: Did the people who lived down there refer to it as
Craw also; I mean, the residents of it? They would call it Craw
or did they . . .
BROOKS: Oh, yeah. They knew they were in Craw and they
called them crawbats.
WALLACE: Oh.
BROOKS: That was their name, see. Cecil Powell got . . .
see, he lived down there at one time. Now, Cecil Powell was a
famous boxer, probably the best boxer Frankfort has ever had. He
�
just died this past summer.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: But, anyhow, he would try to get all of the crawbats
together, you know, and anybody that ever lived there. And he
said, "We ought to elect a Crawbat queen". [Laughter - Wallace]
And I said, well, now . . . I don't know whether you know Bill
Pulliam, the pro golfer.
WALLACE: No, no, I don't.
BROOKS: And there's a Bill Pulliam that played softball.
But, see, she Ruby . . . she was Ruby Ford. But she lived in the
center of Craw once. She didn't live there all the time, but . .
. I said, "Well, maybe we ought to elect Ruby Ford, you know" . .
. or crawbat . . . we was going to elect a queen, you know
[Laughter - Wallace]. And Cecil got a big kick and Albert Dean
and me and Ishmael Fallis and . . . and we were going to elect a
queen. But they said, "Well, you can't nominate Ruby. Why, she
would never admit to living in Craw."
WALLACE: That's the thing I've got from some people is that .
. .
BROOKS: She would never admit it.
WALLACE: . . . they don't want to be associated with it for
some reason.
BROOKS: No. She would never admit it, but they were a good
�
family. They was 13 of those kids, see.
WALLACE: But one of the things that I . . . I've picked up on
is that it wasn't a neighborhood of just transients. You had
people living there . . .
BROOKS: Oh, they stayed there, yeah. They lived here. You
had whites and blacks and they fought all the time, you know
[laughing] one another.
WALLACE: Oh, did they? Was there . . .
BROOKS: But, old Dulin Moss, and you've heard this guy writes
about Dulin Moss, Paul . . . or what's his name, uh, Thomas . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: You're right about Du- . . . Dulin Moss was the
editor of, uh, the State Journal one time.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: He owned half of the houses down in there.
WALLACE: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you. A lot of
those people were . . .
BROOKS: They would build . . .
WALLACE: . . . tenants and rented, right?
BROOKS: They'd rent them for $6 a month or maybe. You know,
$6 a month, then, was a lot of money.
WALLACE: Yeah. This would have been in the twenties [1920's]?
BROOKS: And old man Crouse . . . yeah. Old man Crouse and
�
Dulin Moss owned most of them.
WALLACE: Well, did that sort of continue on? Did whites
outside the area pretty much own most of those houses . . .
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . and rent them?
BROOKS: Yeah. They was all rental, see. Ms. Harp that
rented . . . well, she lived at 773 and we lived at 775. And she
had rented that house for 55 years.
WALLACE: Good grief.
BROOKS: And paid $15 a month, which, you know, if . . . you
could say now, well . . . but when . . . when . . . when the lady
. . . when they were going to tear it down . . . see, these
houses were built . . . there used to be another logging company
up here where the sand company is now.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Goedecke.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: That was Congleton's Lumber Yard, see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: There was a sawmill down there. It was all logs.
See, Goedecke filled all of it in.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: But out . . . out of those . . . the lumber that they
�
brought down there, all of these houses was built along there and
they were built out of poplar. The one we got and the one Ms.
Harp had was poplar. Even the weather boarding was poplar and
the joists were poplar. These houses will last forever.
WALLACE: Well, I wondered, you know, with the floods coming up
and . . .
BROOKS: But these were out of the water, see. They're on the
other side . . .
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: . . . and they . . . they were never in . . . at no
time were they ever in, uh, in the . . .
WALLACE: Any of it.
BROOKS: . . . because they set on that hill, you know, and
that's where . . .
WALLACE: Did they set about the same place as the . . .
BROOKS: But down in the Bottom area, what we call Craw, those
houses, every time the water came up . . .
WALLACE: Well . . .
BROOKS: . . . very much, they was in the water.
WALLACE: One of the things I'm having trouble with is the
exact boundaries of Craw. Is it Kentucky River on the west; Fort
Hill on the north; Broadway on the south; and how far over east
would it be?
�
BROOKS: Well, we come up to, uh, the statehouse yard.
WALLACE: Statehouse yard would be . . .
BROOKS: That was Madison Street. It's no longer there.
WALLACE: Okay. Umhumm.
BROOKS: But across the street from it, it's still part of
Craw because there was some old ladies over there that run a . .
. a restaurant there and they made . . . I don't know whether you
know what tripe is.
WALLACE: No.
BROOKS: Tripe is a . . . back in the days when John Fallis .
. . before he got killed, they had . . . did you ever hear of
County Court Day?
WALLACE: Sure. I've heard of that.
BROOKS: They had County Court Day, see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And they might designate it and right there by John
Fallis's was . . . it was there a lot.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And it was also right in front of the Plaza there
where you go in to the . . . the new hotel.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: That area from Broadway down to Clinton Street was
the County Court Day, or it might be on Clinton Street, from
�
there to the river. See, then, at the end of Clinton Street was
a dump, the first dump I can remember.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: See, they got all fill . . . where the river . . .
where the bridge is now coming back over . . .
WALLACE: Yeah, okay.
BROOKS: Well, you went down there and they dumped and they
filled all of that up. To the left of that was, uh, Sullivan's
Mill which made chairs . . .
WALLACE: Furniture mill.
BROOKS: . . . furniture. To the left of that was Kenney's
Mill, what they called Kenney's Mill [T. E. Kenney and Sons
Lumber]. He sold coal . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . and he had furn- . . . lumber and this was Tom
Kenney, see. And, uh, of course, that was all the same lot of
the lumber, Sullivan . . . or Sullivan furniture place [Capital
City Manufacturing Company, Frank Sullivan, President], see. See
Kentucky Truck Lines was in there later, but that used to be . .
. that big building was a mill and a lot of these people like Ike
Quire and Ernie Quire and a lot of Wilkinson Street people and
Crawdad people worked there. They made the furniture . . .
WALLACE: Worked at the furniture.
�
BROOKS: They made the furniture.
WALLACE: That was one of the things that's been presented to
me that a lot of those people was on public assistance or welfare
in the later years, but I'm not so sure that's right. It sounds
like what you're telling me . . .
BROOKS: No.
WALLACE: . . . is that they were either distillery people or
furniture makers . . .
BROOKS: Yeah. And this is the old Kentucky River Mill right
here. A lot of them worked here.
WALLACE: The old hemp mill.
BROOKS: The old hemp factory. See, that block building over
there was the office.
WALLACE: Was that blacks and whites or just the whites that
was working at them places?
BROOKS: I don't . . . however many. There wasn't very many
blacks, if any. I never seen a black work at the hemp factory.
WALLACE: What . . .
BROOKS: And my grandmother worked there and, uh, all of the
Deans. All of the Deans. See, this is Leestown Road . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . and that's Lees- . . . and that's Leestown, was
the old Hemp Factory Hill was Leestown.
�
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And all of those buildings, see, this used to be . .
. they leased that land or owned . . . you have to lease it. I
don't think you can own it. I'm surprised that there's some . .
. it's for sale now and Ratcliff's got it. But all . . . all I
can remember, that they . . . they didn't even own those houses,
see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Old Kentucky River Mills owned it.
WALLACE: And they rented the houses.
BROOKS: And there was a mansion on top over there where the
superintendent, ever who he was, he would come from Georgia. We
used to have a Mr. Johnston from up on St. Clair Street. He was
superintendent there for years. But the superintendent always
lived in that big mansion that you can look right up the river.
Now, it's gone.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And all of the houses there. There was one, two,
three, four, about eight houses up on that hill.
WALLACE: They're all gone.
BROOKS: They've all been torn down.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Yeah. But they belonged to the old Kentucky River
�
Mill.
WALLACE: Well, when you talk about Bottom, was it a slum . . .
BROOKS: Oh, yeah, it was a slum area, you know, and most all
of those people would go, like, Salvation Army and, you know, and
get their, like, Christmas.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Maybe the Elks Club or something would sponsor things
for Christmas for kids. And I remember the Wilkinson Street
School. Every time . . . Gip Graham would give everybody fifty
cent, or a silver dollar every year.
WALLACE: Who was Gip Graham?
BROOKS: He was over the School Board some way.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: And he . . . he . . . he was on the Board of
Education and they called him Gip Graham is all I [laughing] . .
.
WALLACE: Well . . .
BROOKS: And they used to live up by . . . used to live up by
Harrod's Funeral Home. They used to live in that area right
there.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And, uh, he was on the Board of Education for years.
But, then, Ms. Shaw . . . there was Ms. Shaw and, uh, Ms. Penn,
�
Henrietta Penn . . . was that her name, yeah . . . that was the
teachers when they had it on that corner and also when they moved
it into the old Weber house which was on Wilkinson Street further
down after they made that into Mayo-Underwood School, see.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: This guy that runs the, uh, this housing thing right
here, see, his office is right there.
WALLACE: Mike Fields.
BROOKS: Mike Fields.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: See, they lived on Washington Street, his
grandparents did.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: See, his . . . his uncle was Charlie Fields was an
All-American high school basketball player.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: And they had . . . had another . . . and he had a
brother named Jimmy, and Ike. Ike Fields is this one's daddy,
see.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: Yeah, Isaac.
WALLACE: As a matter of fact, I'm supposed to go over and talk
to Isaac sometime.
�
BROOKS: Isaac, see, the lived on Washington Street, right
back of "Frog" Wood's [Huston K. Woods] Grocery, see.
WALLACE: "Frog" . . .
BROOKS: "Frog" Wood's.
WALLACE: I haven't heard of that one. [Laughing]
BROOKS: Well, he's right on the corner of Mero and
Washington.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: See, he had groceries on . . . there first and, uh,
this would be right across . . . it would be diagonally from the
Tiger Inn, see.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: See, there was the Tiger Inn, and, then, there was
another grocery. And the old gas house was on this corner. And,
then, of course, Ms. Alice Samuels lived next to the gas house
going almost to the center of Craw, see.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: Now, Alice Samuels was a class woman, you know. She
was the superintendent of the, uh, Mayo-Underwood . . . I mean,
the, uh, uh, the school down there . . . yeah, uh, yeah. Alice
Samuels was the first, uh, superintendent of that school.
WALLACE: Alice Samuels.
BROOKS: Alice Samuels, and she just died not very long ago.
�
WALLACE: Ago, okay.
BROOKS: And they lived probably like, uh . . . let's see. I
can think of the numbers, about 500 and . . . see, that side of
the street is the odd numbers.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: See, Ms. Fallis is 701.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: Well, that's the 700 block, but she lived in the 500
block. So, she lived, like, 50 . . . 55 . . . 516 or something
like that.
WALLACE: Washington, now? 516 Washington?
BROOKS: About like that, yeah.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: About that number because, see, the old gas house
they called it took care of a quarter of the block. See, from
say 516 on, it was all the old gas house.
WALLACE: Well, were they using that for a gas house when . . .
making gas when you were there?
BROOKS: I . . . well, I can't ever remember them making gas,
but say they used to have gas . . . you know, lights.
WALLACE: Yeah, coal gasification . . .
BROOKS: Yeah, yeah. And . . . yeah, they had . . . that's
where the old gas house was, you know, because I remember my
�
grandmother had what they call a mantle.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: You know, they'd light it and that'd make . . .
that's better than a coal oil light, you know. [Laughing] It
made a brighter light.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you . . .
BROOKS: But all of those people down there had gas lights and
not many of them had, uh . . . they had some toilets, but, uh . .
.
WALLACE: Most of them had privies.
BROOKS: They didn't have no . . . they had those type of
flush toilets you would sit on and while you was sitting on it,
the tank fills up, see.
WALLACE: Ahh. No, I didn't know that.
BROOKS: Yeah. And, then, it would be outside as a rule, and,
then, they would flush it. Now, not all of them had much water.
They had one spigot outside, you know, and maybe water wasn't but
a dollar a month to the . . . ever who owned the land, but, see,
maybe two or three families would eat out of that . . . use that
same spigot.
WALLACE: One spigot. You know, it's funny you telling me that
because I've been looking at the old records and they did a
survey in '56 [1956] or 7 [1957] and that's the exact same thing.
�
Most of the houses, very few had indoor . . .
BROOKS: No. They didn't . . .
WALLACE: . . . cold water. Most of them didn't even have
indoor plumbing.
BROOKS: No, they didn't.
WALLACE: But, uh . . .
BROOKS: I remember when I came to my grandmother's, we had to
go out back into a . . . well, it was part of the house, but it
wasn't in the house.
WALLACE: Now, where was your grandmother's? Was it . . .
BROOKS: Now, she lived across from Ms. Fallis at one . . .
well, she . . .
WALLACE: On the east [west] side of Wilkinson.
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: The river side of Wilkinson?
BROOKS: Yeah, on the river side, see.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: She lived at, uh . . . well, that was . . . it wasn't
quite that far down because it was in the 600 block, see.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: I would say 628 or something like that.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you about a few of the businesses
like the Tiger Inn. Was that just a restaurant? I've heard . .
�
.
BROOKS: No. It . . . it . . . they had sandwiches and they
had a pool table in there and they would dance and have
nickelodeons, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: And dance. And, then, the Black Cat Inn was that
way. Well, they . . . the Black Cat Inn was worse.
WALLACE: No. I've not heard of that.
BROOKS: It was low-class . . .
WALLACE: Where was that, now?
BROOKS: Well, it was right . . . see, John Fallis was on . .
. his building that had burnt down was on the corner of, uh,
Clinton and Washington, and that would be the, uh, southea- . . .
the southwest corner.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: But right beside of where that burnt down was the
Black Cat Inn, see.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: Right back of it, on Washington Street.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And the next one on . . . the next one up was, uh,
Alex Gordon and before him it was [Mike] Deakins, Deakin . . .
"Pickle" Wilson, I remember, run it. And, then, on the other
�
corner was Cy Currens. See, that's the one that burnt down.
Diagonally, there was a Lum and Abner Store.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Did you ever hear of Lum and Abner?
WALLACE: No.
BROOKS: Well, it's like, uh, and they had Amos and Andy . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . a long time ago, remember?
WALLACE: Yeah, sure. I remember Amos and Andy.
BROOKS: Lum and Abner was like Amos and Andy but they were on
radio.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: Well, then, they started having stores they called
Lum and Abner Stores.
WALLACE: Was it just like a grocery or . . .
BROOKS: Old man Sullivan run it. It was a grocery, yeah.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay, okay.
BROOKS: Now, it was on the, uh . . .
WALLACE: When would this have been, in the twenties [1920's]
again?
BROOKS: Well, he had . . . this is late, see. This was
probably in the forties [1940's] . . .
WALLACE: In the forties [1940's].
�
BROOKS: . . . when . . . when the Lum and Abner Store. That
was after John Fallis got killed.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: See, because that was just a house when . . . when
John Fallis got killed. But on the other corner was a big stone
building right across the street.
WALLACE: Would that have been the Odd Fellows building?
BROOKS: I don't know who's there now. But the old man, Dr.
E. E. Underwood who was the only black physician that I can
remember at that time . . .
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: And his office was upstairs. And this was . . . had
a pool hall in it downstairs. And it was like a store.
WALLACE: Ahh. Was that . . .
BROOKS: But upstairs was the . . . this is on . . . on the .
. .
WALLACE: The cut stone building?
BROOKS: It was a stone building.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: It was . . .
WALLACE: There used to be a placed called the People's
Pharmacy. I don't know if you ever heard of it. It was a black
pharmacy, and I'll bet you Dr. Underwood was somehow . . .
�
BROOKS: Yeah. Well, he was up over top of it, see.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
BROOKS: His office was. And he was one of the few black
doctors that would make house calls, you know.
WALLACE: Did he serve mainly just the Crawbats and . . .
BROOKS: Anybody. He . . . he had no preference. And you
could go up there and . . . white or black and . . . matter of
fact, I think I've been to him. [Laughing]
WALLACE: Oh, really. He was the only black professional
physician?
BROOKS: Yeah. See, that's when you . . . see, when you come
from the Old Statehouse on that side, you would come down . . .
from Madison Avenue and turn, that would be down at the corner .
. .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . of Clinton and Washington on that, uh . . . I
would call it east and, then, the southeast corner, see.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: It's on the southeast corner. And, uh, old man . .
. and he was one of the fine doctors and I can remember him
smoking them damn cigars. [Laughter - Wallace] I can still
smell them cigars. He reminded me of Charlie Sifford, if you
know him. His place . . . his office, a big black guy, always
�
got a cigar in his mouth and it flops around.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Well, Dr. Underwood did that way. And he's a . . .
he had a car, you know. Well . . .
WALLACE: Did they name Underwood, Mayo-Underwood after him . .
.
BROOKS: I think that's where . . . yeah.
WALLACE: Where they got the name?
BROOKS: Yeah. And I see his name over on that church that's
right on the corner of Lewis Street and, uh, and, uh, Clinton,
you know, right across from the old Model Laundry.
WALLACE: Yeah. The St. John's AME.
BROOKS: Yeah. That's, uh . . . Model Laundry was on this
side, see.
WALLACE: Uh-huh.
BROOKS: Well, see, and, then, when you get down to the next
corner, that is St. Clair, as you go down.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: All the houses on that side now is the . . . well,
you've got the Farnham Dudgeon, the sports center there.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Well, on that corner, very corner, was, uh, was, uh,
the old Robb Funeral Home.
�
WALLACE: Well, I've heard . . . tell me about the Robb Funeral
Home.
BROOKS: Thomas Robb. There was one boy that was . . . they
had one boy that was almost white and he was trouble, always in
trouble. But he was a white/black guy.
WALLACE: Okay. [Laughing]
BROOKS: And I know . . . I've heard he always was a queer and
that he had killed some women and . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . he didn't . . . and, of course, Robb could
really play the piano, but they had this one boy that, I don't
know whether he was theirs or not, but he looked white to me.
See, and . . .
WALLACE: Well, that . . . that funeral home is mentioned as
late as the fifties [1950's].
BROOKS: Oh, yeah. That was there. That was on . . . well,
you see, the main office was on the corner, but, then, the
funeral home was right back of that on Clinton Street . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . on down towards the sports center. Then . . .
then, behind that was the Sam Schiller junkyard, and you've
probably heard of Sam Schiller's junkyard.
WALLACE: No, no, I haven't heard . . .
�
BROOKS: But that wasn't always his. See, before him, it was
B. Moore's coalyard, old man Howard Cox worked for them and they
had mules . . . they hauled coal around . . .
[End of Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
BROOKS: And Howard Cox worked for me. He had mules and
wagons, and that's the way they did it in the old days. That's
the reason I was telling you they . . . in that same area, also,
they had county court day, and, then, of course, the most nort- .
. . notorious county court guy was Jess Neal. [Laughter] He was
a . . . he was the biggest cheat of all. But that . . . those
old horse traders, that's the way they do. They'd say, "Boy,",
they said, "look at this horse", you know, and they'd keep . . .
they never let you see but one side of him.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: They'd keep turning him around as you're looking at
him [Laughter] and you'd think you was looking at the other side.
And not a . . . not a blemish on him.
WALLACE: Well, let me ask you something. [Laughter - Brooks]
I've heard that Craw was a violent place, a place of gambling and
prostitution and . . .
BROOKS: Well, it was.
WALLACE: Was it really?
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BROOKS: Yeah. They had a lot of wild women. Peggy Davis
come . . . you know, I don't want to get in trouble mentioning
names, but . . .
WALLACE: Well, they're all long gone, I'm sure.
BROOKS: I don't think Peggy Davis is dead. I don't know.
But, she came from the mountains somewhere, and, then, there was
one girl they called "Mountain" Mary. And, of course, Alex
Gordon's woman was Vivian Harper, you know.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And he kept her for years. And Mike . . . well, I
know he's dead now, but he's got a daughter that lives on, uh, I
don't know whether it's his daughter or his granddaughter that
lives on Mero Street yet where Goebel Gill used to live. See,
that used to belong to my aunt.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: And they left it to my sister . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . and, then, they sold it to Tom Harp.
WALLACE: Why was it violent? Was it just the class of people
that was there or . . .
BROOKS: Well, they would, uh, sell beer, you know, and . . .
WALLACE: Oh, people get . . .
BROOKS: Now, we got a thing . . . there's the Blue Moon, see.
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That popped up in the fifties [1950's].
WALLACE: Where were . . .
BROOKS: We're talking about the Blue Moon . . .
WALLACE: Where was Blue Moon located?
BROOKS: Well, see, I'll tell you, John Fallis was on the
corner.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: The next building on Clinton Street towards the river
. . .
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: . . . was the Blue Moon.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: And that was where Peggy Davis and, of course,
"Mountain" Mary and Lucille Downey and . . .
WALLACE: A number of individual maidens made their living
there. [Laughter] I heard that the mountain men would . . .
this is back in the teens [1910's] and . . .
BROOKS: Yeah. Well, see, they'd get to dancing. They had
those nickelodeons, you know . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . and, of course, the idea of the women is to
make them put as many nickels in the [laughter - Wallace] . . .
and, then, of course, they sold beer. Beer was legal . . .
�
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: . . . then. And, see, they . . . Tommy Spaulding run
a joint right across the street, and this is on the other side
from there. There used to be a two-story building over there.
This is almost on the corner of Center. See, when you come down
Broadway till, uh, say, you get half-way down, there was Center
Street.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Well, down that, in that alley, see, now when you get
on down to the corner of Center and Clinton Street, this is where
John Fallis got killed. This was actually the building. I was
telling you that he was . . . he had gone to bed . . .
WALLACE: Umm.
BROOKS: . . . but he had to walk a half a block down and a
half a block up, and they was in Ed Fincel's. See, there was
some old meat markets down in there, too.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: Yeah. See, Fincels [Fincel Brothers Meat Market] run
the meat market. Well, this was Ed Fincel's place. See, John
wasn't . . . they didn't go in the Peachtree where he run. They
went . . . walked down the corner, but . . . and the way I
understood it, in the back of . . . when you go into Fincel's, of
course, it was like the old saloon. In the back room, there's
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always a gambling table, see.
WALLACE: Sure.
BROOKS: That's where they had them. But you sold your beer
and liquors out front or . . . well, you wasn't allowed to sell
liquors because it was illegal at that time, but they sold boot
moonshine liquors, you know. [Laughter]
WALLACE: So, he [inaudible] this . . .
BROOKS: But, anyhow, this . . . this Rigsby, I understand,
cheated on purpose and John Fallis reached over and whops him
one.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: But he's got the gun out under here . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . and pulls the trigger. And John Fallis jumps
up and reaches for his gun, but he doesn't even have . . .
WALLACE: Doesn't have it.
BROOKS: . . . it with him. And, then, the guy poured two or
three more into him, see, and . . .
WALLACE: So, he was actually playing cards when he got killed.
BROOKS: It was murder. It was murder.
WALLACE: He didn't have a gun on him.
BROOKS: Yeah. It was murder. It was set up, and, uh . . .
WALLACE: Well, did, uh, did the police fear coming down into
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Craw or . . .
BROOKS: Well, they did. They . . . if they'd come, they'd
just go through. [Laughter] They didn't stop.
WALLACE: They really didn't . . .
BROOKS: But that's what I was telling you. He had an air
about him, you know, that they knew that they better not . . .
they could come down there as long as they stayed in line and
didn't try to interfere with . . .
WALLACE: Do anything.
BROOKS: . . . anything. But they were the law. And he . . .
he respected the law, but he did . . .
WALLACE: Well, it . . .
BROOKS: . . . like he wanted to do, too.
WALLACE: It sounds like he was a man of political influence,
too.
BROOKS: Yeah, he was. And everybody respected John Fallis.
I . . . I don't know of anybody that could say much . . . and
I'll tell you who can tell you much about him as anybody and
you've probably read some of her articles in the State Journal is
Thelma Willis, or Thelma Grimes.
WALLACE: Thelma Grimes?
BROOKS: Yeah. She was a Willis, you know. And I was telling
you about Tommy Spaulding. He married her sister [laughing] and
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he's the one that . . . Tommy's dead now, but he was a good guy.
WALLACE: Thelma Grimes.
BROOKS: But Thelma Grimes can remember probably . . . she
used to live down there. She lived . . . I don't know where . .
. she moved to Bellepoint, but I don't know where she lives now.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: But she is T. Grimes' wife.
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: They used to run a grocery. T. Grimes used to run a
grocery.
MRS. BROOKS: His name was Edmond.
BROOKS: Edmond? Edmond Grimes would be his name.
WALLACE: They had a grocery down in Craw?
BROOKS: Well, no, they had a grocery on Wilkinson Street one
time down here . . .
WALLACE: Umhumm.
BROOKS: . . . almost where, uh . . . this side of where the
sand place is now, on this side of the river.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: But, see, he worked at Hale's Grocery over in
Bellepoint when he was a kid delivering groceries with a bicycle
when he was a kid. They delivered groceries with a bicycle.
There were several groceries in Bellepoint, about four, I think;
�
Montgomery's and Hale's had two, I think, and a guy named Nick
Rodgers had a grocery over there and . . .
WALLACE: Well, let me read you a few names that I've unearthed
that maybe you . . . if you recognize. Will Castleman. Have you
heard of a Will Castleman, C-a-s-t-i-l-m-a-n [William S.
Castleman]?
BROOKS: No. That doesn't . . . that doesn't ring a bell with
me.
WALLACE: Jack Robb.
BROOKS: Oh, yeah, Jack Robb [laughing] is, uh . . .
WALLACE: The man you were telling me about . . .
BROOKS: Yeah, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . that had the son who was almost white.
BROOKS: Yeah. He is the one that run the . . . and, then, I
was going to . . . yeah. And that's where the coal company was
later, you know, and . . .
WALLACE: Uh, Dr. Mayo of Mayo-Underwood, I guess.
BROOKS: Yeah, yeah. I know . . . but I just know of him, you
know.
WALLACE: Umhumm. The Reverend W. R. Hutchinson of the First
Baptist Church there on Clinton Street.
BROOKS: Oh, yeah, I remember him; yeah.
WALLACE: He was . . . his name was mentioned . . .
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BROOKS: It wasn't on Clinton, was it? Oh, yeah, yeah, you're
right.
WALLACE: Now, Corinthian Baptist was over on Mero.
BROOKS: Yeah, yeah, uh-huh.
WALLACE: And there was a Reverend James Richardson over there.
BROOKS: Yeah, yeah. Now, there was a "Tubby" Marshall
[Ellsworth Marshall, Sr.] that used to live right across from the
Peachtree Inn and he was an All-American football player at
Kentucky State.
WALLACE: Oh.
BROOKS: But this was back, like, in the twenties [1920's],
late twenties [1920's], see.
WALLACE: Would his son or maybe kin to him be Joe Marshall?
BROOKS: I don't know. I do know his children, but I don't
know their names. I knew that they had several. And these are
what they . . . [laughing] well, "Happy" [A. B. "Happy"
Chandler] Chandler calls them "high yellows". [Laughter]
WALLACE: That sounds like . . .
BROOKS: That's what he calls them.
WALLACE: . . . "Happy" Chandler.
BROOKS: Yeah. He calls them "high yellow".
WALLACE: The man who works for us, Joe Marshall, used to box
around a little bit professionally . . .
�
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . and he's very athletic, very big man. So, I
wonder . . .
BROOKS: Umhumm.
WALLACE: . . . if he couldn't be the son of this "Tubby"
Marshall.
BROOKS: Yeah, he could be, yeah. "Tubby" was, uh . . .
"Tubby" . . . . I don't know "Tubby's" right name, but I know
him, and I'd know him from . . . well, he may be dead now, but
his wife was a right nice looking . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: But they lived across from the Peachtree Inn one
time, on Washington Street.
WALLACE: Umhumm. Well, let me ask you. I know it's getting
late and I'll ask just a few questions. And this is more on the
slum clearance project, so, you may not have any memories of it.
But let me run through these, and, then, I'll . . . I'll leave
you in peace because you've been awful good. [Laughter - Brooks]
Do you know where the idea came from to clear out the Craw and
build, you know . . . to remove the houses and the residents.
Offhand, do you know where the slum clearance project, who . . .
whose idea it was?
BROOKS: Well, I think maybe the mayor of, like, Bob Yount,
�
you know.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: See, I know his family real well.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: Bob Yount. I remember his dad, Roy Yount. See, they
owned . . . they owned a lot of property, too, and they rented to
the poor class of people. And Ms. Yount done all the collecting
and, uh . . .
WALLACE: Well, I've read some newspaper articles where Mayor
Yount was speaking out very strongly in favor of this project.
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And when John Gerard, was . . .
BROOKS: John Gerard used to be the Mayor of Frankfort . . .
WALLACE: And he was . . .
BROOKS: . . . and they was the one that started the cable
system in Frankfort, see.
WALLACE: Oh, really, John Gerard?
BROOKS: Yeah. I think he . . . and he had . . . he had a
used furniture . . . not a used furniture, but he started a
furniture store.
WALLACE: Well, I know John was very supportive of this
project.
BROOKS: Yeah, he was a couple of mayo- . . . I would think he
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had as much to do with it, uh, I would think more so than Yount,
you know.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Of course, they've named this bridge Yount Bridge,
you know.
WALLACE: Bridge, in his honor.
BROOKS: But, see, they lived out Benson, see.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: I know their . . . their exact location when they
were kids, see, and I was a kid.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: That there was old Ms. Yount and Roy Yount. Now, he
built that Bailey's Mi- . . . that mill, Yount's Mill around on
Taylor Avenue.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: That mill. He built that him- . . .
WALLACE: Sets off there where Devil's Hollow comes down.
BROOKS: He actually built that house that sits next door to
it.
WALLACE: Well . . .
BROOKS: He dug that stuff out himself, and, uh, he . . .
that's Roy Yount, see. That would be Bob Yount's dad, see, and
he had a son named Bill, Willie, or William, I call him.
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WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: And Jimmy. Jimmy still . . . well, Jimmy has . . .
he still owns a garage on Mero Street right . . .
WALLACE: Well, I know Mr. Yount that used . . . is it Jimmy
that used to work at the garage there?
BROOKS: Yeah, he owns the garage.
WALLACE: No, there was a . . . is he still plying his trade
there or has he sold that garage?
BROOKS: Well, he . . . he, you know, he just works . . . he'd
do some people he knew . . .
WALLACE: Knew.
BROOKS: . . . is about all he would do. And he . . . if
there's any . . .
WALLACE: It's right there at the corner of Lewis and Mero.
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Yeah. I've . . .
BROOKS: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, see.
WALLACE: He only worked on American cars.
BROOKS: Right across the street was where . . . is where the
. . . I was telling you Alex Gordon. See, his daughter lives
right across the street. It was a . . . that's where my aunt,
Auntie Bertha Gill and Goebel Gill lived there. But, right now,
Tom Harp lives there and that's Alex Gordon. Her name is, uh, .
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. . I can't think of her name. But, see, I remember Alex, Jr.
and there was another girl. I was telling you about old man
Crouse owned all of those houses in that area and old man Dulin
Moss, see. They would fix them up anyway. They would use used
lumber or anything and build a shack and just rent it for $6 a
month.
WALLACE: They probably made out pretty good.
BROOKS: Oh, yeah. They made . . . anything they made because
they would use, like, Bob Switzer and, uh, Huey Clark and people
to build these houses that were just jack-legged carpenters . . .
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: . . . and these people would keep it up. And they
wouldn't have any plumbing in them, maybe an outdoor toilet, you
know.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: This was back when you didn't have to have, uh . . .
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: . . . any, uh, restrictions on building . . .
WALLACE: No zoning or . . .
BROOKS: No vote, yeah.
WALLACE: . . . or housing and building standards.
BROOKS: Because I remember, I was telling you about Tommy
Spaulding. He run that Spaulding's Inn which was across from the
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Blue Moon, and, uh, he was bad as any . . . well, he . . . he was
a good guy. He was like . . . he was like, uh . . . he . . . he
loved baseball. He taught me to pitch baseball, and he could
really pitch.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: Of course, he lost both legs later on. Had a brother
named Charlie Pew . . . Poo . . . Charlie Poo Spalding, probably
the best catcher that Frankfort ever had, baseball catcher, you
know.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: We talk about Bill Pulliam . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . and Floyd . . .
WALLACE: A lot of athletes came out of that area, didn't they?
BROOKS: Floyd Craine. See, Betty . . . he's a cousin to
Betty. Matter of fact, Ms. Fallis and, uh, Lewis Craine, who was
her brother, was . . . they had 13 children. Have you ever been
to the Pink Pig?
WALLACE: Yeah, sure.
BROOKS: Do you know . . .
WALLACE: Ms. . . . Clayton Bradley and, uh . . .
BROOKS: Clayton. Would you believe Clayton, her mother and
her daddy came from right up here.
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WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: That Floyd Crain's brother was her daddy, see.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay. No, I didn't know she was a Craine.
BROOKS: Well, [laughing] she originally was a Craine, see.
WALLACE: Ahh, no.
BROOKS: She married Scotty, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah. [Inaudible]
BROOKS: And, then, her name is Clayton, and she's the one
that keeps . . . wants me to make a recording because I know
Bronson Craine and . . . see, there was a huge family of them.
There was Bob and Bronson and Novita and, uh, Clarence and Floyd
and Eugene and Edgar . . .
WALLACE: All in one family?
BROOKS: All in one family. They were all the same family
like . . . like Betty's, you know, Ms. Fallis, see. She had a
lot of children, but not many of them lived.
WALLACE: She had, according to that little thing I brought in,
13 . . .
BROOKS: Umhmm.
WALLACE: . . . but only five of them lived.
BROOKS: Well, let's see. She had . . . there was Carlos and
Wicey and Bixie and Anna Lee and Ishmael and that's all.
WALLACE: There might have been more because I . . .
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BROOKS: There was a lot more. That's the only living
children. And, then, they had another brother named Andy Craine
that lived on, uh . . . well, it would be right across from the
Plaza. He was in World War I.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: And if you wanted to hear about World War I, you'd
just have to stand there on a corner and Andy Crain, you could
hear him from one end to the other. [Laughter] And he was Ms.
Fallis's brother, also.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: And they said he . . . he could tell some whoppers
all right.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Yeah, he could tell a lot . . .
WALLACE: One more question, and, then, I'll leave you in
peace. When you heard about the slum clearance project, whether
you read about it or somebody told you, what was your reaction to
the thought of . . .
BROOKS: Well, you know, uh, it was bound to be for the
better, you know, because the people were living under poverty
conditions, you know. And there was Eva Cox. I don't know
whether you ever heard of this name. She, she lived right where
the . . . where you go in the Plaza.
�
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: There were two shacks there, and she had dogs and
cats. Must have had 50 of them. [Laughter - Wallace] And my
sister used to go over there and talk to her once in a while.
But she swore she had a cat that could play the piano.
[Laughter - Wallace] But she only had . . . I think she wore all
of the clothes that she had, you know . . .
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: . . . Eva, and she sold . . . you remember . . . I
don't know whether you remember the tickets or not, the ball
tickets.
MRS. BROOKS: Baseball tickets.
BROOKS: Baseball tickets. You'd get a book and you'd sell
them. And like you sold them for $12, and you may get four of
it, see.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: She'd sell . . . she'd sell you tickets and if you
was . . .
WALLACE: That's how she made her living, selling . . .
BROOKS: She made her living like that. I don't know what
else she did, but she wore . . . old colored lady.
MRS. BROOKS: [Inaudible].
BROOKS: And she had two shacks in that lot there, and it was
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just . . . it was in the middle between Mero and Clinton, exact
middle. Well, that's where the hotel is.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: And I'll tell you somebody else is . . . that lived
next door to her and she's still living [laughing] is, uh, uh,
Thurman, Elsie Thurman; Elsie Smith now. She lived next door to
her, see.
WALLACE: Would she be a good person maybe to talk to?
BROOKS: Yeah, Elsie Smith could remember about . . .
MRS. BROOKS: She was awful young then, wasn't she?
BROOKS: . . . particularly about Eva Cox and "Frog" Wood's
Grocery because, see, he built another store across the street
from that.
WALLACE: Who owned "Frog" Wood's? Was that, uh . . .
BROOKS: Well, "Frog" Wood . . .
WALLACE: John Fallis?
BROOKS: . . . owned his own . . .
MRS. BROOKS: He owned it.
BROOKS: He owned his own store.
WALLACE: Oh, "Frog" Wood.
BROOKS: "Frog" Wood . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Had you heard of him?
BROOKS: . . . had a store . . . see, I told you he had it on
�
the corner of Mero and . . .
MRS. BROOKS: I don't know what his name was, but . . .
BROOKS: . . . Washington.
WALLACE: Umm.
BROOKS: But he also built one on Wilkinson Street later . . .
WALLACE: Uh-huh.
BROOKS: . . . out . . . he built it himself out of block.
WALLACE: Yeah, I see. I didn't realize "Frog" was a nickname
for him.
MRS. BROOKS: I don't know what his name is, Roy, do you?
BROOKS: I can't remember it. I ought to. Probably . . . but
he was very . . . he was a good businessman.
MRS. BROOKS: Umhmm.
BROOKS: And I'll tell you another thing that's not in that
deal is, uh, Rupert's Grocery is right where the YMCA is now when
you went . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . down Broadway, like when you first go down
Broadway down to the trestle . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . about the third door down was a wholesale
grocery.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
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BROOKS: They sold groceries to everybody in the county, see.
It was Rupert's Wholesale Grocery, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah. Were they still in business as late as the
forties [1940's] and fifties [1950's]?
BROOKS: Oh, yeah. Pardon?
WALLACE: Were they still in business as late as the forties
[1940's] and fifties [1950's]? They had gone out by then.
BROOKS: Rupert's? I don't know. I believe they went out in
the thirties [1930's].
MRS. BROOKS: I don't remember [inaudible].
BROOKS: I believe they went out in the thirties [1930's].
MRS. BROOKS: Umhmm.
BROOKS: I'm almost sure they did. But they were a wholesale
grocery, but that was on . . . that was on Broadway. And, then,
of course, you know, when you got past them, there was one more
store and then you went down Center Street and, uh . . . another
old grocery was down there on the corner of Mero and Center
Street, see, and that's on the other end.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
BROOKS: Yeah. Where you're coming out to go across the
bridge, but right in the middle of that block . . .
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: . . . was, uh, Center Street. Then it . . . cause
�
when it . . . when you went across the street, you run into
Blanton Street.
WALLACE: Yeah, I know Blanton Street.
BROOKS: And, then, that's on the corner of . . . that's where
Mayo-Underwood is. But on this corner was Billy Dean's Grocery.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: Now, he's a guy that looked like W. C. Fields, if you
remember W. C. Fields?
WALLACE: Yes, oh, yes. My little chickadee.
BROOKS: You would think he looked just like him. He had a
big strawberry nose. And he had some groceries. You could go in
there and buy penny candy, you know, like penny suckers . . .
WALLACE: Back in the twenties [1920's] and thirties [1930's].
BROOKS: And thirties [1930's], and I guess he lived until
about the forties [1940's]. But he had maybe six or eight
children, and they lived on Wilkinson Street in the seven . . .
seven hundred block, almost the eight hundred block.
WALLACE: So, the businesses I'm hearing you talk about are
mainly groceries, uh, saloons . . .
BROOKS: Yeah. Well, see in the . . . yeah.
WALLACE: . . . a junkyard, Robb's . . .
BROOKS: Well, this was . . . see, Billy Dean was, uh . . . he
kept a woman all the time [laughing] besides his regular wife.
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WALLACE: Regular wife.
BROOKS: And he had one there all the time. And in the back,
he sold . . . he was a bootlegger, too. Now, the back end . . .
but sometimes these groceries are fronts. See, like, John
Fallis'.
WALLACE: The real business is in the back.
BROOKS: Yeah. And Ms. Fallis said he has come down and
actually . . . he would have a bushel basket of money and just
take it up the street in a bushel basket, you know, and didn't
have no fear or nothing.
WALLACE: Nobody is going to touch it. [Laughing]
BROOKS: Ain't nobody going to bother John Fallis, but he'd go
to the bank with the money in a bushel basket, just walking up
the street.
WALLACE: Why did . . .
BROOKS: And she tells that, and I'm sure she's right.
WALLACE: Why did she stay with him if they were so different?
BROOKS: Well, you know, he . . . he was too high-strung for
her, I believe.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: You know, she was too religious and . . .
WALLACE: I guess she wouldn't have never considered divorcing
him. That would have been against her religion.
�
BROOKS: No, I don't think, uh . . . I don't think it was ever
. . . you see, now, they buried him in Frankfort Cemetery.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: And I remember him being laid out at the house,
though. I was always scared in that room, but [laughing] . . .
and he's dead. [Laughter] But I knew what he did because me and
Ishmael would go up through there and he'd say, uh, "Papa, give
give us a dime." We could . . . you know, you could go to the
show for a dime. You could go to any movie for a dime when you
were a kid.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: And he'd give us a dollar apiece, but he'd kick your
butt and say, "Get your butt out of this Bottom and stay out of
it". That's the way he'd say it.
WALLACE: Ahh. He didn't want his . . .
BROOKS: But we'd be back [laughter], don't you think we
wouldn't. But when you got a dollar then, it was like getting
twenty dollars now.
WALLACE: Oh, yeah.
BROOKS: See, you could buy three bars of candy for a dime
and, uh . . .
WALLACE: So, you all was rich with your dollar.
BROOKS: When you got a dollar, you were set up.
�
WALLACE: So, you'd go to the show and come back down to the .
. .
BROOKS: Yeah. [Laughing]
WALLACE: I guess he's afraid you'd spend the money and . . .
BROOKS: No, we wouldn't . . . not that day.
MRS. BROOKS: Here's some pictures that, when we moved Grandpa
Fallis. It was Bixie's [Benjamin] idea.
BROOKS: See, I was telling you. They buried him in the
Frankfort Cemetery.
MRS. BROOKS: And this is at Sunset. It was after they . . .
BROOKS: And he is buried . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Steel vault and all . . .
BROOKS: See, Ms. Fallis wouldn't want him. [Laughter] They
buried them together. See, Bixie [Benjamin] moved him.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: But she wouldn't have wanted that. I would . . .
MRS. BROOKS: I don't know whether she would or not.
BROOKS: I don't think she would.
MRS. BROOKS: But she found out we had lots in Sunset and she
wanted . . .
BROOKS: We have lots up there, see, and they're buried . . .
they're next to our lot.
MRS. BROOKS: . . . him to be buried up there.
�
BROOKS: And I don't want to be there either. [Laughing]
WALLACE: So, they moved him from Sunset to . . .
MRS. BROOKS: No, they moved him from Frankfort . . .
BROOKS: No, they moved him from Frankfort Cemetery . . .
WALLACE: To Sunset.
BROOKS: . . . to Sunset.
MRS. BROOKS: Umhmm. He'd been buried forty-some years . . .
BROOKS: But, you know, that vault, they said when they picked
the handles up that they would still work.
WALLACE: Good grief. That is a massive looking thing.
BROOKS: Yeah. See, that's the vault. And he was . . .
WALLACE: You can't pull [inaudible].
BROOKS: Uh-huh. Well, see, Bixie [Benjamin] had that done.
He wanted to put them together.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: And that probably cost him a lot of money. But he
said those handles would still work on that thing.
WALLACE: Operate.
BROOKS: Where you lift it by.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: You'd think they'd be rusty. But, see, I think it
was copper or something and . . . and . . . and the casket was,
too. But this is where they . . . now, this is Sunset. This is
�
where he is now. Bixie [Benjamin] decided to do that. His name
is Benjamin . . . his name is, uh, Benjamin Franklin Fallis. And
Ishmael's name is Ishmael William, see. Ishmael is a tribe of
the Israelites.
WALLACE: Ishmael was . . .
BROOKS: That's where . . . see, Ms. Fallis gets all of these.
I don't . . .
WALLACE: Biblical names.
BROOKS: Of course, John was the second son.
WALLACE: Umhmm. There's a story in the newspaper where Bixie
[Benjamin] got in a fight one time down in Craw.
BROOKS: Oh . . .
WALLACE: It's in the . . . apparently someone shoved . . . I
guess it was his first wife, maybe, shoved her, a black man
shoved her.
BROOKS: Yeah, shoved her.
WALLACE: And, uh, got in a fight and Bixie [Benjamin] got hit
over the head with a shovel.
BROOKS: Somebody . . . some nigger, a black guy . . . they
called . . . they say niggers.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: That's what we called them. They . . . they expected
to be called niggers, [laughing] you know.
�
WALLACE: Apparently they got into it and there was, uh . . .
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . the police went into it and, uh . . .
BROOKS: Well, he got shot by the fire chief once, too.
WALLACE: He did? Bixie [Benjamin]?
BROOKS: The fire chief shot his spleen in two, yeah. Conway.
See, the fire department, when they first had it was up on Main
Street . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . right where Scott's Furniture was.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: Now it's . . . what's in there now . . . anyway, it's
. . . it's . . .
WALLACE: Well, why would the fire . . . Bixie [Benjamin] was
working for the fire department.
BROOKS: Him and . . . I don't know him. His name was
[George] Conway, you know. Chief Co- . . . he was an old guy.
WALLACE: Yeah. And he shot . . .
BROOKS: And Bixie [Benjamin] . . . yeah, he shot him.
MRS. BROOKS: They got into an argument over toys, you know . . .
BROOKS: Oh, those toys. Bixie [Benjamin] fixed the toys for
kids.
MRS. BROOKS: Toys for underprivileged children.
�
BROOKS: He loved to fix toys for kids.
MRS. BROOKS: And some way they got . . . that was before I came
here that they got in an argument over the toys.
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And [laughing] he shot him.
MRS. BROOKS: He shot Bixie [Benjamin]. He shot his spleen in
two.
BROOKS: Shot his spleen in two. He had . . . he didn't have
any spleen when he died.
WALLACE: But he recuperated from that shooting?
BROOKS: Yeah, oh, yeah.
MRS. BROOKS: See, he was working . . .
BROOKS: That was . . . good golly, he lived . . .
MRS. BROOKS: . . . at the fire department after that.
BROOKS: . . . twenty or thirty years because he was over to
the fire department they got now, you know . . .
MRS. BROOKS: But I don't know . . .
BROOKS: . . . over in South Frankfort or over . . .
MRS. BROOKS: . . . what it was all about, but they said it . .
. it was about the toys, wasn't it?
BROOKS: Yeah. See, that used to be Orville Harrod's . . .
that used . . . Frankfort Buick . . . where the fire department .
. . .
�
MRS. BROOKS: Well, Bixie [Benjamin], though, when he was in that
train wreck, he was in the Seabees, that hurt his spleen, didn't
it?
BROOKS: Yeah, but he . . . Conway shot his spleen. He hurt
his back when he was in . . . see, Bixie [Benjamin] was in the
Seabees and . . .
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: . . . when they was coming home one time, they had a
terrible wreck.
WALLACE: Wreck.
BROOKS: And he got a pension out of that, you know. He had a
. . .
WALLACE: One of the stories I hear about John, his father, was
he was a veteran of the Spanish-American War.
BROOKS: Oh, yeah.
MRS. BROOKS: He was. [Inaudible].
BROOKS: Ms. Fallis got a . . . she got a pension from the
Spanish-American War.
MRS. BROOKS: Yeah, she drawed a pension from that.
WALLACE: He got pushed off a train or something and hurt his
knee?
MRS. BROOKS: I don't . . . I don't know.
BROOKS: Yeah and, like I'm telling you, he had an air of
�
Errol Flynn in him. He did.
WALLACE: He sure did.
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And there ought to be Spanish-American War records
kept on each veteran that ought to have some information on him.
BROOKS: Yeah. I . . . I . . . I know that she got a pension
all her life.
MRS. BROOKS: She was [inaudible] that pension from [inaudible].
BROOKS: From the time he died. So, that's the reason I just
think they never . . . if they ever divorced, I didn't know
about it.
MRS. BROOKS: I don't think they did.
WALLACE: Well, now, she sounds too religious to even consider
divorce.
BROOKS: But Ben Conway could tell more stories about John
Fallis . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Yeah, he's the one to talk to. See . . .
WALLACE: . . . and, of course, he died. And . . . and he used
to be over at the fire department. And he could . . . if he gave
. . . if he gave you this history, it would be pretty accurate.
MRS. BROOKS: This is the Bible we gave Granny one Christmas in
'67 and she wrote the names of all of her children down. She
wrote that Clarence Edward, Leona Mae and Carlos Russell, John,
�
Jr. Now, he was named after John Fallis, and Anna Lee was my
mother.
BROOKS: See, that's the reason I say his name is Carlos
Russell.
MRS. BROOKS: And Bixie [Benjamin] Fallis.
BROOKS: I mean, no, I mean John Russell.
MRS. BROOKS: Edward, Marvin Richard.
WALLACE: I think you're right. Marvin Richard.
MRS. BROOKS: Now, Bixie's [Benjamin's] boy was named Marvin
Richard, too, wasn't he? And Carnell and Alma Orphelia. I don't
know where in the world they . . .
WALLACE: Ophelia, yeah.
MRS. BROOKS: Uh-huh. And Earl.
WALLACE: Earl.
MRS. BROOKS: Is that Fallis?
WALLACE: Yeah. That's an "a". She didn't close the loop
there.
MRS. BROOKS: Yeah, yeah. And I wrote this down. This is when
Bixie [Benjamin] died. And this is when Carlos died.
BROOKS: Well, see, Carlos was a representative one time.
WALLACE: Well, that's what your wife was telling me . . .
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . that he was in politics.
�
MRS. BROOKS: And last week, there was something in the paper . .
.
BROOKS: Yeah. He'd been a magistrate. He'd been a
magistrate, Representative and, uh .. .
MRS. BROOKS: . . . where he was running for . . .
BROOKS: He used to be the Boy Scout leader for years. So,
they were all pretty good people, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah. I've heard of a young man. I met him, a
Scotty Fallis.
BROOKS: Well, that's Ishmael's son.
MRS. BROOKS: That's Ishmael's boy.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
MRS. BROOKS: He's, uh . . .
BROOKS: He's a major now.
MRS. BROOKS: He's in California now. He's . . .
BROOKS: He's a major, or is up for major.
MRS. BROOKS: Up for Major. We talked to his mother . . .
BROOKS: It might be a Colonel.
MRS. BROOKS: . . . last week.
BROOKS: Lieutenant Colonel, I believe.
WALLACE: What age . . . would he be in his late twenties or
thirties?
MRS. BROOKS: He'd be in his thirties, I think.
�
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Yeah. I think he'd be in his thirties now.
MRS. BROOKS: [Inaudible].
BROOKS: He's in Chicago, isn't he?
MRS. BROOKS: No. He's in California.
BROOKS: He's in California. But he was in Chicago.
[Laughing]
WALLACE: I met a Scotty Fallis who was laying carpet, and this
has been four or five years ago.
MRS. BROOKS: Oh, Bill Fallis.
BROOKS: Oh . . .
MRS. BROOKS: And Ted.
BROOKS: Yeah. Ted and Bill. They're cousins.
MRS. BROOKS: They . . . they laid carpet. They lay tile.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: See, Ted . . . now, Bill . . . Ted Fallis was a good
boxer. He was a champion boxer . . .
MRS. BROOKS: They're cousins to Ishmael.
BROOKS: . . . in our regiment, 83rd division.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
MRS. BROOKS: Granny says she was married to my husband for 24
years and mother of 13 children. She wrote that.
�
WALLACE: Twenty-four years.
MRS. BROOKS: I knew she had had 13 children. She didn't raise
all of them. They died.
WALLACE: So, she must have married him about 1905, then,
because he was . . .
MRS. BROOKS: Well, now, this was 1967 when we gave her the book
because she . . . she wanted a Bible that had big print, you
know.
WALLACE: There's one other Fallis story where he was at a
polling station on voting day and somebody shot at him, and he
returned fire and his shot went astray and killed a man who was
at the voting booth. And that's in the little handout. Have you
ever heard . . .
MRS. BROOKS: I haven't read that . . . hadn't heard that.
BROOKS: Well, I'd heard he killed a guy that was kindly
accidental, you know.
WALLACE: A friend of his, really . . .
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: It was an accident.
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: And that grieved him quite a bit.
BROOKS: Yeah. Yeah. Well, see, they used that store there.
It had been a polling . . . had been a polling place for years,
�
you know.
WALLACE: Oh, his store had been?
BROOKS: His store, yeah. Then, of course, they had them
different places. But I remember when that was . . . had been a
polling area.
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, you'll have to read this little thing I
dropped off, uh, because I think it might . . . it might either
have some stories you're not aware of or . . .
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . confirm some that you . . .
BROOKS: Well, it would take forever to tell all of the
stories [laughing] about these ladies of the evening, Peggy Davis
and Pauline, [laughing] "Mountain" Mary and, uh . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Well, Edith Long and she's, uh, she's . . . Arthur
Long is, is the . . . the car salesman.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: You know.
WALLACE: Long's Car Sales.
BROOKS: Well, his sister was named [inaudible] . . . uh, her
. . . her name was Edith Long.
WALLACE: But she's . . .
BROOKS: Then, there was Peggy Davis and there was Helen King
�
and, uh . . .
WALLACE: Were they generally kept by the saloon men or . . .
BROOKS: Yeah. They would stay at a certain . . . like in
Peachtree Inn, he'd have so many . . . well, Harvey Sarven and
Grace Sarven run the Blue Moon.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: See, that's Harvey Sarven, S-a-r-v-i-n, I believe.
And, then, her name was Grace.
WALLACE: Were they white or black, the Sarvens? They were
blacks?
BROOKS: No, they were white.
WALLACE: They were white.
BROOKS: They were white. The Black Cat Inn was run by . . .
"Black Cat" was his name, and I can't remember his last name, but
I know him.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: You know, when they had the Black Cat Inn. Then, of
course, the Tiger Inn was a little gentler.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Because it was on the corner of Mero and . . .
WALLACE: Right across from the school really. It had . . .
BROOKS: Well, on the corner from the school, the same side as
the school only there was a half a block between him and that's
�
down on the corner . . .
WALLACE: The Blue Moon was rough or was it . . .
BROOKS: The Blue Moon was rough. They had, uh . . . they'd
dance half the night . . .
WALLACE: Can you describe how it looked? I mean . . .
BROOKS: Oh, well, you'd have a bunch of booths and you'd have
a dance floor in there, you know, and you may have an upstairs
where the ladies of the evening could go. And, uh, it would have
a bar, you know, where they'd sell beer. And the girls, their
object, see . . . like Tommy Spaulding would have them in there
and tried to have good looking women . . .
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: . . . to draw the men. And their idea was to get you
to put nickels in the . . .
WALLACE: Nickelodeon.
BROOKS: . . . nickelodeon and . . . and buy beer.
WALLACE: Beer.
BROOKS: See, beer. See, he would sell beer twice what it's
worth, [laughter - Wallace] three times maybe, but they would buy
it, see.
WALLACE: Were the customers mostly just local residents or
would people come . . .
BROOKS: No, they would come from Eminence and, uh, Henry
�
County and, uh, Lawrenceburg and . . . see, Frankfort was the
center of all of this stuff.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: And Shelbyville. And they would come from all
around. Georgetown.
WALLACE: So, this area was sort of unique as far as . . .
BROOKS: Yeah.
WALLACE: . . . the services that it could provide.
BROOKS: And especially from the Bald Knob area, see. They'd
come . . . see, Eminence is that way.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: And, uh, uh, New Castle.
WALLACE: Sort of a regional sin center, I gue- . . .
[Laughing]
BROOKS: Yeah. And that's where they'd come, to the Bottom,
see . . .
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: . . . because you'd get away with everything out
there, see, and they'd be out on the street drunk at night, two
o'clock in the morning. And, uh, half the night, you know. And
they'd end up sleeping together, you know, or something.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: And they'd roll them, stole his stuff. You know, the
�
women would roll the men. That's what they called it, you know.
WALLACE: Take the money and all.
BROOKS: Take all their money, yeah. Get them drunk and,
then, roll them. And, then, they'd . . .
WALLACE: Yeah. Well, what are you going to do, nothing,
because [laughter] you weren't supposed to be there.
BROOKS: No, I don't know what happened to it, you know.
WALLACE: Yeah. There's nothing that could be done after you
. . .
BROOKS: But this was, like, the Blue Moon . . . now, the Blue
Moon has been two places.
WALLACE: Oh, okay.
BROOKS: The Blue Moon has also been on Wilkinson Street one .
. . later after that was destroyed, they'd move it around on . .
. well, just below where the YMCA is now on the first . . . first
block coming down from Broadway down to, uh, Clinton Street.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: Uh, Jack Rice and them used to live there and, uh . .
. this was a double building like. It had a building . . . and
you'd go upstairs and there was a connection and it was a
drive-in in between them.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: But the Blue Moon part had been a grocery . . . Ms.
�
Rice used to . . . I remember when she lived there years and
years ago, Jack and Henry. I mean, uh, there's a . . . do you
know Gordon Taylor?
WALLACE: Sure.
BROOKS: Well, uh, his wife is a Hutchison.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: Now, Ms. Rice's prettiest daughter was named Rosie.
WALLACE: Okay.
BROOKS: And, uh, Everett Hutchison married Rosie and this
girl, Joan or Judy, ever what her name is, is . . . Gordon
Taylor's wife is her daughter, see.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: See, and that . . . that was the second Blue Moon.
But, of course, she . . . she has no knowledge or no remembrance
of that.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: But that's where she came from. See, she . . . she's
Jack . . . was Jack Rice and . . . Ms. Rice had a . . . she . . .
they were kin to the Harps. There was Sam Harp that I used . . .
used to . . . used to be on baseball with.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: Sam . . . with John Fallis. He was . . . he was a
guy that couldn't hardly read his name, but he could tell you any
�
. . . anybody you'd name, he would tell you what their batting
average was.
WALLACE: Fallis or Harp?
BROOKS: Harp.
WALLACE: Harp.
BROOKS: Sam Harp.
WALLACE: Sam Harp.
BROOKS: He could remember the cards you played yesterday.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: He was . . .
WALLACE: A photographic memory.
BROOKS: Everybody wanted Sam Harp to play cards for them.
They'd . . . they'd sponsor him. [Laughing - Wallace]
WALLACE: Because he had the . . .
BROOKS: He remembered every card everybody played, every
card. And he could remember what you played yesterday.
[Laughing] That's what was amazing about him. And the guy could
walk . . . they had the Sleepy Hollow, used to be, you'd go out
the Lawrenceburg Road, see.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: That's the only way you could get out there. I used
to live out the Lawrenceburg Road out where, uh, well, where
Bramlett used to live, on the Bramlett farm. Now, there's a . .
�
. out there there's a bowling alley on the left right across from
. . . that's where we lived years and years ago.
WALLACE: How long have you all been here now?
BROOKS: This place? We've been here since '54 [1954].
WALLACE: Fifty-four [1954], okay.
BROOKS: Yeah, right here, see. Of course, I've lived up the
street and I've lived in . . . out in Bald Knob area and . . .
when I was a kid. And, then, we lived two different places out .
. . I used to go to Bridgeport School, see, years ago. And, of
course, Ishmael, John Fallis's youngest son, would come out . . .
we had horses and ponies and he'd come out to ride them. And
every time we'd come to town, we'd be close to them, see. And,
then, of course, I graduated at Frankfort High School and I
played football for them and, uh, and, then, I went to Eastern.
But I remember [laughing] old man Sullivan, see. The reason I
know . . .
WALLACE: [Inaudible] Sullivan?
BROOKS: . . . that was the Lum . . . Lum and Abner Store was
old man Sullivan started it, see. And he had a store on
Wilkinson Street at 629. And that's where . . . our oldest son
was born there, so, it had . . . Bruce, if you know Bruce.
WALLACE: Well, I've never met him. I know of him.
BROOKS: He's up at the bank and . . .
�
WALLACE: Yes.
BROOKS: . . . of course, he's a Senior Vice-President. And
he's up there with Gordon Taylor and him, you know.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: But, anyhow, old man Sullivan, I painted a sign on
that . . . there ain't no doubt about this was the Lum and Abner
Store because, see, when I was going to high school, I made extra
money by painting signs. I was a good sign artist.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: And, uh, I became one [laughing] out of necessity, I
reckon.
WALLACE: Where did you . . . as far as working your adult
years, did you work for the state or did you . . .
BROOKS: Oh, no. I was a power plant foreman at Granddad.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: I was the foreman out there. And I run the fire and
heat department. And every pump . . . we had 100 pumps, uh, all
of the fire system, the bottling house area. Every pump that
pumped whiskey was ours. Everything that pumped air was . . . I
had to know about it.
WALLACE: Good grief. You had a lot of . . .
BROOKS: So, they called it the Power and Heat Department,
see.
�
WALLACE: Uh-huh.
BROOKS: And we would pump where the boilers . . . the
boilers, they were a couple of million dollars worth [laughing]
in boilers. So, I knew how to fire them . . .
WALLACE: Quite a bit of . . .
BROOKS: I know what made them tick, you know. Yeah.
WALLACE: Well, you've given me a lot of time . . .
BROOKS: And I . . .
WALLACE: And I didn't mean to take up so much of your time.
BROOKS: I'd been out there for 38 years. So, I know how to
make them work; but, then . . . but, see, Forrest Marshall was
National Distillery's sign painter.
WALLACE: Ahh, okay.
BROOKS: And he is probably the most accomplished artist that
Kentucky has ever had.
WALLACE: What was the name again, I didn't . . .
BROOKS: Forrest Marshall.
WALLACE: Forrest Marshall.
BROOKS: Do you remember Russ Marshall that used to be city
engineer or City of Frankfort, when they first . . . probably the
first city engineer they ever had.
WALLACE: And probably before my time. I didn't get here until
'77 [1977].
�
BROOKS: Uh-huh. Well, anyhow, Russ is his brother. But
Forrest was in the Marine Corps.
WALLACE: Ahh.
BROOKS: And they used to . . . he was in the Pacific, see.
And, of course, I was in Europe and, uh, they would fly him over
the islands and they would reproduce the islands before they
invaded them, see.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: And they was in topography, and they would make this
island up on a map, see.
WALLACE: Yeah.
BROOKS: They would take photographs of it.
WALLACE: Umhmm.
BROOKS: Well, Herman Bloomenthal who was the, uh, art
director for 20th Century Fox was in that outfit with him. He
recognized Forrest had a rare talent, you know. And, uh . . .
WALLACE: Forrest went to work for 20th Century after . . .
BROOKS: No, they asked him. They came here after him and he
said, "No, I'm satisfied doing" . . . he worked . . . he was a
sign painter at Granddad.
[End of Interview]
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