Oral History Interview with Sam Kennett Cecil

[Begin Interview] Interviewer: The following is an interview with Sam Kennett Cecil by Mary (Height?) for the Kentucky Oral History Commission, studying Prohibition in Nelson County, its causes and effects. The interview was conducted in Nelson County, Bardstown area, at Springfield Road, on May the fifth, 1989. Mr. Cecil, could you give us a little update on your background? Where you were born, and a little bit about your family, your parents and so forth, please.

Cecil: I was born on Maple Hill in 1918, which was just prior to the beginning of Prohibition. And my father had bought a lot off the old Davy Woods farm, which was the first lot that was taken from his farm. I think he bought that lot about 1914. 1:00But it was right adjacent to the old FG Walker Distillery. In fact, the office of the distillery later became a residence. And quite a number of years later became a grocery store. But all those buildings are gone now. In fact, the jail sits on the whole complex. I attended school at Bethlehem Academy for eight years, and then I went to St. Joe prep for my four years in high school. Shortly after high school, I joined the T. W. Samuels Distillery as a laboratory technician. And 2:00later on, I studied chemistry at the University of Louisville, and also physics. And I continued in the chemistry field until I first entered service in January 1941, nearly a year before war was declared. I spent five years on active duty during World War Two. Immediately after I returned from service, I joined Heaven Hill Distillery in December, 1945. I stayed with Heaven Hill until December, 1952. And I was their chief chemist there for that period of time. And I handled all the quality control work and the warehouse and bottling operation. And I also did a considerable amount of work with their boiler plant (?) corrosion in their boilers. 3:00I also did a lot of control work in the distillery itself. After I left Heaven Hill, I joined the Dant Distillery at Gethsemane. And I worked alternately between the Dant station plant, number 169, and the Gethsemane plant number 47. I went to work there when Armand Hammer owned the plant. But a very short time after I joined the Dant Distillery, Hammer sold out to (Shandley?). While I was working for Hammer, I was really running a bottling house, which is a job I didn't particularly relish, because bottling houses 4:00are pretty tough jobs. Shortly after Shandley bought the plant in the spring of 1953, they found out that my background had been in the chemistry field and quality control, so they immediately asked me to set up a laboratory, which I ran for somewhat over a year. In fact, it was spring of 1954 that the Dant Distillery, under (Shandley?) operations, ceased operation, or at least suspended it for a short period. And they later went off. And I think I had had about enough with a very small plant operation. And I decided that I'd just as soon change. And in the meantime, Bill Samuels had offered me a job at what was then the old Samuels Distillery at Loretta. 5:00The old Samuels Distillery, which he had bought some period before that. And he had just started operations at the plant. That plant was ultimately, well, at the beginning, it was the old (Berts??) Distillery. It later changed to Happy Hollow. And he had asked me to come to work for him. So I immediately went down to Loretta to work for Bill at the old Samuels Distillery. Now that distillery later, of course, was changed to Star Hill. And then, right now, it's the Maker's Mark Distillery. I stayed there from the first of April, 1954 until December, 1980, when I retired.

Interviewer: Was your father involved, or your family involved, in the distilling business in any way? 6:00Cecil: Nelson County has been so well known for whiskey production, about the only thing available as far as employment was concerned in Nelson County was the whiskey business. My father had worked in the whiskey business. He was one of the old time cutters. Worked for a number of distilleries before Prohibition. Of course, he died before Prohibition was repealed. He died in 1932. He had worked for the old Mattingly Moore, and I think Tom Moore, which were adjacent plants. And he worked at the old FG Walker Distillery, which was right next door to us. But he did not have a 7:00long period, of course he was very young when he died. He was only forty-nine years old. But I was offered this job at T.W. Samuels in 1937. And as I say, I worked there until January, 1941. And I became very much interested in the whiskey business. It presented quite a challenge to me because I was in an area where I could really study and learn all the various departments of the operation. I not only worked with the distillery, but I worked with warehousing and I worked with bottling. And it became quite a fascinating thing, to see all the different phases of the operation, how they tied in the operation and the distillery from production of the new whiskey, then following it through its aging process, and finally into bottling. And you learn something new every day. 8:00And I did with all the different phases of the operation. Actually, after the war, I was a little concerned about what I was going to get back into because I had been working with the government department, which concerned mostly with maintenance of equipment, tanks, guns, all type of weapons. And I really hadn't, thought that maybe I forgot all I knew about the whiskey business, having been gone for five years 9:00and only being associated with the distillery for three years before the war. But Charlie's family offered me a job at Heaven Hill which included setting up the laboratory from the very beginning. They had nothing there at the time. And he asked me to come out and set up a laboratory for him. And I decided, after much deliberation, I would go ahead and do it. After that period, why, I guess I was hooked.

Interviewer: Hooked. That's right.

Cecil: I felt like well, this is about it. I might as well devote my whole life to working in the whiskey business. And of course I had worked at Heaven Hill for seven years, and gained considerable background there. And then began to follow right on through. And after that, why, I was offered these other jobs and 10:00I learned quite a bit about it in that process, particularly about changing from the different operations. Everybody has different ideas about the whiskey business, and I learned a little bit from all of them. Some good, some bad. And fortunately I was able to separate the good from the bad. And I think the experience helped me tremendously when I took over the management of Maker's Mark.

Interviewer: It's a fascinating career, really.

Cecil: It really is. I felt like it's one of the most interesting businesses that you could enter. 11:00Of course when I joined Maker's Mark, it was such a very small operation that you had to wear so many different hats. No two days were ever alike. And while we were strictly engaged in the business of producing whiskey for the first four years or so, I was strictly running the distillery end of it and the warehousing. Then later on, I got into bottling. And of course there was always the administration. And then when we did start bottling, securing all the permits and learning the state requirements and securing bonds and all those things, why it developed further. And then, of course, in the shipping area, I took that over, too. And it gradually went evolved into 12:00quite a varied activity. But I was in charge of the operation. Of course, Elmo Beam was our distiller for the first year that I went to Maker's Mark. But unfortunately Elmo died, and I had to take over the whole plant. And I remained in that until, I spent about twenty-six, almost twenty-seven years, at Maker's Mark.

Interviewer: So outside of the wartime, you were involved in it for--

Cecil: All my life.

Interviewer: All your life.

Cecil: Up to now.

Interviewer: How long have you been retired?

Cecil: I'm not through yet. I've been retired since December, 1980. It's going on nine years.

Interviewer: Quite a long time.

Cecil: Actually, it meant that I spent about 13:00forty-some odd years, less my wartime service. And I guess that's long enough.

Interviewer: Quite long. I'd say. So Mr. Cecil, you were virtually a baby when Prohibition came in.

Cecil: Oh, yes, I don't remember anything about the (?) Eighteenth Amendment, when Prohibition came in. I heard a lot of talk about it over those years. And of course, living right next door to a distillery, we heard a little bit more than maybe some others. Because I've seen some warehouses go up in flames.

Interviewer: Is that right?

Cecil: Yeah. When I was very, very small, I can remember standing at the back of our house 14:00and looking out over the field there. One of the warehouses gone up. And apparently what happened is the whiskey was (?) and the warehouse burnt down to (?) theft.

Interviewer: Was that quite prevalent?

Cecil: I think that happened in a number of cases. But of course, some of the warehouses were, the whiskey was taken out and shipped into Louisville. And a lot of whiskey was bottled at the (?) warehouse. But a lot of whiskey was stolen, yes. In fact, we had a (?) over at Loretta at the Maker's Mark plant, by the name of Bill (Shockenzy?). And (Shockenzy?) died back in the late '60s, I think 15:00it was. And he was about ninety years old then. But he remembers quite well when Prohibition came in. In fact, he lived on that farm his entire life. And he was, tenant for the (?) who was operating the plant. And old (Choctaw?) sometime after Prohibition was repealed, a very notorious character by the name of Ramos came in there, and he was living on the back side of the farm at the time. I think he'd already been married. He probably had some children. But Ramos and his troop paid him some money to get lost while they broke into the warehouses and took the whiskey. But he was, of course, not really involved, 16:00because he was not hired as a watchman or caretaker of any kind. He was strictly a town farmer. And he didn't know what they were going to do. They just gave this money to him to get out of the way. And of course, that was probably a wise thing to do, because they were really dangerous characters. Ramos was, he wasn't in the Al Capone class, because Al Capone strictly dealt in beer, as I understand it. But Ramos was headquartered around (?) . And I think his principal mission after Prohibition was repealed was to go around, pick up whatever whiskey he could. And he probably dealt in a lot of moonshine, bootleg whiskey, too. Bootlegged it himself. I don't know what ever happened to Ramos.

Interviewer: Was this his last name? 17:00Cecil: Uh huh. Yeah. I forget what his first name was. Although I've heard a lot about his name. But really, you never knew that much about him.

Interviewer: You mentioned something about public warehousing. The whiskey was taken to the public warehouse. Can you explain that?

Cecil: See, when Prohibition was repealed, I mean, sorry. When it was enacted, the owners did not lose the ownership of the whiskey. It was decided that whiskey could be sold through drugstores for medicinal purposes. And the old American Distilling Company 18:00assumed the name of American Medicinal Spirits. And the Louisville public warehouse did the same thing. They simply took whiskey in from various proprietors and bottled it under government supervision. And it was distributed to drugstores where you could buy a bottle of whiskey and use it strictly for medicinal purposes. Of course, that was a big blind. But it was bottled in pint sized (only?). I remember hearing my mother refer to whiskey as being twenty dollars a quart during Prohibition, which is considerably higher than it is even today with all the tremendous inflation and increase in taxes and all that. But I'm sure her figure came from the fact that 19:00you'd go to a doctor and get a prescription, he'd charge you five dollars for the prescription. And then you went to the drugstore and you paid five dollars for the pint of whiskey. So that made twenty dollars a quart. Now that's strictly hearsay, but I remember hearing my mother say that when I was very, very young.

Interviewer: That's comparable to the prescription prices today, I'd say.

Cecil: Right. Yeah. I accused one old doctor over in Marion County one time of making his living off the whiskey prescription. He never denied it.

Interviewer: So these companies, American Medicinal Spirits, and the other one you mentioned--

Cecil: Louisville Public.

Interviewer: Were public, were set up to take whiskey from distilleries?

Cecil: And (?) and I think that most of the whiskey was over four years old by the time they bottled. So it was bottled 20:00(?). I remember seeing a prescription bottle that Bill Samuels had, that he kept over all these years. It was a prescription written by old Dr. Hill right here in Bardstown. It was written on the (? and Talbot?) drugstore, which is now Walgreen's. And it was a prescription filled for old man Jim (Rowse?). Captain Connor's father. And I think Bill still has that bottle. It's the only one I've seen in recent years.

Interviewer: Were any of the distilleries in this area allowed to bottle whiskey?

Cecil: As far as I know, not in Nelson County. In fact, I don't think any of the surrounding counties have had distilleries bottling whiskey at all.

Interviewer: Of course, they weren't allowed to make it, I assume.

Cecil: No. They discontinued operating. 21:00Interviewer: Totally.

Cecil: Of course you know what that meant, as far as particularly Nelson County was so dependent on whiskey production, even though it was a seasonal operation, it provided a tremendous amount of employment. Most of them operated in the wintertime. And it supplied employment for all these farmers in the area. And they would come in, work the distilleries in the wintertime. And have plenty of time in the spring to do their plowing and their planting, and all the way up through the growing season, when they were so busy on the farms, they simply tended their farms. And of course that was pretty much the principle that we used at Maker's Mark when we first started producing. Because we didn't know 22:00how much we were going to be able to sell. So we limited our production considerably, and only operated in the wintertime. And a lot of those fellows in Marion County, around Loretta, had small farms. And they were quite happy to work at the distillery in the wintertime, and then go back to their small farms in the summertime. And they fared quite well. It was an ideal situation for both of us.

Interviewer: Why do you think that Prohibition came in? Was it a feeling that this business was just ruining lives everywhere? I mean, why was the temperance movement such a force 23:00at that time?

Cecil: The temperance movement was pretty strong. You take people like Carrie Nation. She, of course, broke up a lot of the saloons and (?) and she developed quite a following. And of course we always say that it was an opportune time for the anti-saloon league to come in and enact Prohibition, because it was really during the World War One, and when all of the eligible people who probably would have opposed it were away at war. And it was possible for them, 24:00the backing that they had, to go ahead and get the people to vote Prohibition in. And of course after the crash of 1929, things became so depressed in all this area. These people who had been making their livelihood from the distilleries, the farming operations, were bringing absolutely no income. I know farmers who would sell their tobacco in their fall, and the price would not even cover floor charges. I know of many farmers who told me that they'd get a bill after their tobacco was sold because it just wasn't enough to pay for the handling on the tobacco warehouse floor. Of course, Depression left Nelson County particularly long 25:00before it did some other parts of the country. Because when Roosevelt came in, it was one of his promises on his platform that he would repeal Prohibition. And of course, as you know, it was repealed in 1933. And people went right back to work in Nelson County. And they had a tremendous amount of employment immediately after Prohibition was repealed. Tom Moore, which is now Barton, started back since they had-- As I mentioned, particularly T.W. Samuels and Tom Moore, which is now Barton, had resumed operations. And they furnished 26:00a tremendous amount of employment. Tom Moore started off very quickly mashing 2400 bushels, which was a twenty-four hour operation. T.W. Samuels in Deatsville was mashing 1864 bushels, which was also a twenty-four hour operation. In addition to that, the old (Shellhan?) Distillery started back, which was, I think it first started off as an independent distillery, and later changed to Shellhan. They got started. The old Bardstown Distillery, which later became Glenco, started operation. The H. McKenna plant at Fairfield. Heaven Hill was built, although their operation was very small in the beginning. I think they started off with something like six hundred bushels. Lambert (?) built a distillery. I think his operation didn't start until about 1938. 27:00But still, they furnished a number of jobs for the people in the neighborhood. Beam started back down in Bullitt County. They did not own the plant at (Boston?) at that time. That plant originally started back as, assumed the name of Churchill Downs. But Churchill Downs sued them and they had to change the name to Churchill. Of course, that plant was later sold off and Barton owned it for a period. And I think it was Barton sold it to Beam later on. Of course, they have a big operation down there today. The old Limestone Springs plant at Chapeze started operating. And of course, a number of the old plants that were in existence before Prohibition came in, 28:00did not reopen. The old F.G. Walker Distillery never opened. The (Selwyn?) plant never opened. The, now, let me see. The old (Drakmean?) plant, which is Early Times, they never reopened that plant. I can't recall just, the Dant Distillery opened under the name of Dant (Head?). Old man George Dant started his in Marion County very quickly. The old John A. Walkman plant eleven started operation. A lot of the distilleries were, the people still had sufficient funds to get started. Of course, 29:00most of them had to seek outside financial help. And as a result of that, most of the owners in the neighborhood lost controlling interest. That thing happened to Tom Moore. Old man Con made a lot of money out of it, but he had to sell the controlling interest in his operation. The old Mattingly Moore plant never started back. But now Seagram's owns that brand name today. But they never started operations back after Prohibition. Of course, a lot of your distilleries in Anderson County and Jefferson County and Franklin County, which were big operations for whiskey, they started back. Of course, your bigger operations like National Distillers 30:00and Sam (?) operation came in very shortly after Prohibition. Seagram's plants. And of course, the (Chanley?). Of course, as time went on, those big plants gobbled up the smaller ones. And they bought those plants principally during World War Two, when whiskey stocks became depleted. And they were looking for (?) whiskey. And they bought the plants to get the whiskey. [End Side A. Begin Side B.] Cecil: With the advent of Prohibition, of course, that became quite a moral issue. The various Prohibitionists 31:00allied themselves with various churches, and were able to outlaw the legal liquor industry. But of course this has become quite embedded in a number of religions. Actually, Catholics never have been opposed to it that much, but some of the other religions have. In fact, that's responsible mainly for so many dry counties in the state of Kentucky today. I believe that where some of your Protestant religions are more predominant, we have some ninety-two counties out of the total of a hundred and twenty that are legally dry now. In what we would term a wet state, that seems like a tremendous 32:00number. But I think the religion factor enters into that considerably. We have a number of precincts even in some of the wet counties that are dry. In fact, Chaplin, right here in Nelson County, probably the wettest county in the whole state, has been dry ever since I can remember. Some of the counties are dry by local option. But some of the main cities in those counties are wet. And I think religion is a factor. Back here a number of years ago, 33:00Warren County went dry. It had been wet for a pretty good time. Well the wet forces knew that they couldn't win the county completely, so they petitioned a local option election strictly for Bowling Green, and were able to get Bowling Green wet. In Washington County, the same thing happened. Springfield's wet while Washington County is dry. A number of other counties have tried countywide elections, and the wet forces have lost. In fact, one of the most outstanding of those was Bell County. And I happen to know a number of people in Bell County and they asked me for some help at one time. But I told them I saw no possibility of the county going wet. I said if they petitioned a vote strictly for Middlesboro, I think they would win. 34:00But not countywide. Somerset and Pulaski counties did the same thing. They petitioned a countywide election and they lost. But that's just the way those counties have been. That's the way they're going to stay. I don't see any possibility that they'll ever go wet. During Prohibition, in fact you'll find that in some of these dry counties today, a large number of them are very depressed even now. And I think it was a great thing that a lot of the state parks have been built in these depressed areas, because it has furnished a large amount of employment. Not only the parks themselves, but in the industries and filling stations and the restaurants and other businesses around those communities. But one of the big effects of Prohibition was that I think people felt that the federal government, of course, voted, it was voted in. 35:00The people did it themselves. You can't blame the federal government for something people do. But they forced them out of a legal business that was their only livelihood. This only resulted in them going out and starting to make moonshine. And they felt like well, I've got to make a living somehow. There was no other means. There was no industry. In fact, it wasn't until a considerable period after World War Two that Nelson County was able to attract other industries in. They depended entirely on the whiskey industry to maintain them. And since these people had no means of livelihood, 36:00they went out and made moonshine. And they felt like it was their perfect right to do so. I don't think any of them felt any moral guilt in making moonshine. Of course, a lot of it started in some of the more remote sections because they had to get out and hide from the revenuers. Of course, the revenuers were pretty strong back there in Prohibition, and a lot of them were caught. A lot of people around Nelson County, particularly, served time for making moonshine. And of course the moonshine was wholesaled to various bootleggers, and the bootleggers operated in bigger towns. And Bardstown was loaded with bootleggers at one time. And they, I think the bootleggers didn't have any qualms at all about selling 37:00to anybody that came around. Talking about selling to minors these days, bootleggers didn't mind selling to a minor. He'd sell to a six year old kid if he came around for half a pint, if he had the two bits to pay for it. Of course, you paid thirty cents to be colored with a little red.

Interviewer: Did the local law enforcement, were they along with the revenuers? Or did they kind of protect their people?

Cecil: I think the local law enforcement people sort of turned their heads. And there was very little effort on their part. Now they had farmers around, in fact, I know one farmer, maybe I better not mention his name, who walked the hillsides and the streams just to locate these stills. And apparently he must have gotten 38:00some kind of a payoff for informing on these moonshiners. He was of course not very well liked. In fact, they despised him. And it's a wonder he hadn't been shot.

Interviewer: Really.

Cecil: But as far as the local people were concerned, local law enforcement people, they did very little toward helping to find these moonshine stills. In fact, it probably wasn't until after World War Two that anybody in the sheriff's department might have ever participated. They, in fact, right there in (Lud Mckail?) was the jailer back there in Prohibition. And so was old man Joe Beam. But it's a known fact that nobody ever spent Christmas Day in jail who was in there 39:00for moonshining. They let them go home.

Interviewer: So that was a lesser crime then.

Cecil: They knew they'd come back. They'd come back right after Christmas and serve the rest of their time. But old man Lud and old man Joe would let them out. And they were really honorable people. They didn't mean any harm. Of course, it got to be kind of rough later on, because so much hijacking went on. And people got jealous of each other and it wasn't anything to have a shootout with the moonshiners and people hauling whiskey. People come in and try to hijack them. And a number of cases happened like that. In fact, there was one big shootout I heard about, this fellow named (Rod 40:00Mattingly?) told me about being involved in hauling liquor over in Marion County close to Dant (station?) . And I don't think anybody really got killed, but they had a real shootout over the thing.

Interviewer: Pretty vicious sounding.

Cecil: Yeah. Dog eat dog thing, I guess, after a while. And of course really, moonshining continued clear on up for a considerable period of time. And it's just been in very recent years that I knew moonshiners who operated up in the late '50s. And, 41:00but I haven't heard of any around here since. Most of the problems with the, in fact, while I was at Maker's Mark, we had three different break ins where the people went in. In two cases, they stole barrels out of the warehouse, but in another case, they emptied the contents right in the warehouse and siphoned the whiskey out. And I think more of the illicit operations were involved with the legal distilleries, where they would either steal whiskey from the distilleries, from the warehouse or bottling houses, or (?) storage rooms, than there was in actual making of moonshine. 42:00Although back in the '50s, I was associated with some people down in Harlan County and Bell County, and I know a lot of operations were going on down there then. Because I still had a bottle of moonshine that was, and I put a date on it, it was 1961, I think, that I picked up, just for a souvenir. The biggest problem with moonshine, of course, is that it was a product that they were making very fast. And there was no sanitation involved. There was a lot of lead involved in the construction of equipment. And a lot of it was poisonous. There's no question about it. In some cases, they adulterated their product. 43:00They added materials to it that were definitely not good for your system. And in fact, I've heard so many cases where the possibility that even wood alcohol was introduced into it. And wood alcohol make you go blind. That's methyl alcohol, and it's very, very dangerous. That's like a lot of products on the market today. A lot of painters sometimes get to the point where they'll drink just about anything. They'll drink paint thinner, which is mostly methyl alcohol. And I think that probably, as long as people are going to drink, the greatest thing is to have it legalized because there is less danger. There's no question about the fact that whiskey, if you could outlaw whiskey 44:00completely, I doubt if very seriously if very many distillers would oppose it. If you could get rid of it completely now. But if you're going to have illegal operations, it's far better to have it legalized.

Interviewer: Is that one reason you feel like Prohibition was a failure?

Cecil: I think so. You see, Prohibition not only ushered in your gangster element, but it was a dangerous product. The, we probably had more crime during the Roaring Twenties than any other period in the history of our country. 45:00You look at the ten most wanted men on the FBI list back in the '20s, and you'll find that they're wanted for more heinous crimes than any of the ten most wanted men you see today. Now you might find some of them guilty of maybe killing a man or robbing banks and that sort of thing. But back during the '20s, you had Machine Gun Kelly and Al Capone and Ramos, as I mentioned. Dillinger came in that period. Baby-Faced Nelson. A bunch of those real hardened criminals. They were guilty not killing one man, one man, but many, 46:00many men. And they had no conscience. They'd do anything. So I think that it settled the country down considerably by repealing the Eighteenth Amendment. I think it made the country a little more law abiding. At least it did in this area.

Interviewer: Sounds like people became a little more civil, doesn't it?

Cecil: I think so. Of course, it's about like when the West was won. A lot of the early pioneers of the West took the (?) along in a lot of cases, why they went without their women, and you know what 47:00happened as far as the towns that sprung up with the saloons and their brothels. And it wasn't until they brought the women in, and the women were able to control their men, to some extent, and cut out all that whiskey drinking and fooling around with all those women. And they set up schools and churches to kind of take the barbarian out of the men folks.

Interviewer: Sounds good for us, doesn't it? Well, Mr. Cecil, it's been a very enlightening morning. Are there any other thoughts that you want to let us know? Or got any other feelings (?) 48:00Cecil: Mary, I think I've pretty well exhausted what little I know about it. I do have a lot of reference books. I've got quite a collection of whiskey books, books written about the industry. In fact, I've collaborated with a number of people who have written books. One of the most notable of these is Belles, Bluegrass and Bourbon, written by Harry Harrison Kroll. And I worked with him for about two weeks in compiling the information that he put in his book. In fact, I didn't know until just recently that he was one of Jesse (Stearn's?) teachers at the Old Lincoln Institute. And he wrote quite a remarkable book. But I've got a large number of books. In fact, every time I find a book about the whiskey industry, I pick it up. I've got a couple of copies of Red Liquor that Irvin Cobb 49:00wrote. And I have some Photostatted copies of some books that were in the University of Kentucky library that date back to the 1600s. I do have another book that I think is, even though it's fiction, it was largely based on fact. And it's based around the period of 1792, when Alexander Hamilton, who was secretary of state under, or secretary of the treasury under George Washington, enacted the first federal tax on whiskey and began the Whiskey Rebellion. And this book was called (Amber Car?). And it's quite a well written book. And I happen to have a copy of that. And it's probably 50:00a very rare book now. I doubt if you could ever find another copy of it. But that's about all I have. I do like to read up on different things. And as I say, I've collected articles and different publications on the industry. And about all I know is the whiskey business. And I think I do know a little bit about it, and I do like to talk about it. Since I spent so many years in it, I felt like that was my whole life. I appreciate you coming out, Mary. It's been very pleasant. I enjoyed discussing it with you. And if there's any further help I could give you, I'd be glad to.

Interviewer: Thank you, again. And thank you, Jean, for your wonderful hospitality. And for sitting in here. And we certainly appreciate this. [End Interview]