Oral History Interview with Mildred Stiles Brunson

[Begin Interview] Interviewer: The following is an interview with Mildred Stiles Brunson by (? Nellie?) and Mary (Height?) for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. The name of our project is Prohibition in Nelson County: The Causes and Effects. The interview was conducted in Louisville, Kentucky, Jefferson County, February the sixth, 1989. Mildred, we need some information on your background, if you wouldn't mind. Give us your mother's name again.

Brunson: My mother was Elizabeth Wood Crume.

Interviewer: And your father?

Brunson: My father was Hugh Dunlap Stiles.

Interviewer: Was he a Bardstown native?

Brunson: Over in the (Maude?) area. 1:00Interviewer: That was Washington County, was it?

Brunson: Well, Washington County after you crossed the river right there. But Nelson County on this side of the river.

Interviewer: And can you give us a little of your educational background, Mildred?

Brunson: Well, we lived in Danville, Kentucky, and I started school in the first grade in the fall. And then we moved to Bardstown when I was six years old, in January of 1910. And I enrolled in Bardstown grade school. My two brothers took me up to school. And at that time, Mr. Ernest (?) was principal of the high school. And Mrs. Mary Geoghagen taught first and second grade, as she did for many years. And we, my father bought the place two miles from Bardstown where Margaret and Elijah Hayden now live. And it was formerly owned by old Mr. Beb Grigsby. And who owned the big green house in Bardstown later. And his wife lived much 2:00longer. She was a (Wooly?) from Shelbyville. And anyway, my father bought that house from him, 214 acres, two hundred acres on that side of the river, fourteen acres on this side of the river. And everybody knew this was the house (where the playhouse?). So then I went to school there until I was in the eighth grade and my two brothers had gone off to college. And so I went to the boarding school up at Danville the year I was in the eighth grade, and down at Russellville at Logan College. And we called them colleges in those days. They had four years of high school and two of college. And I went down there two years. And while I was down there, the first year I was at Danville, they had the terrible, no, the year before, they had the terrible Shepherdsville wreck.

Interviewer: Was that 1918? '17?

Brunson: Yeah, '17. I think it was '17. And when so many Bardstown people were killed. And we moved out to Bloomfield Road. So Mr. (Nat Muir?) and his wife, who was a Shedburn from California, and their only son, 3:00George Shedburn Muir, they were all killed in that Shepherdsville wreck. So that (?) house, we call it now, my father sold it to (?), that was put up for sale at auction. And my father was going to move to town. And so that he did. And we moved there then in whatever year, I can't remember. And then I went to Bardstown High School my second, third and fourth year, and graduated up at Bardstown High School. And Mr. Lockett was principal then.

Interviewer: You moved around.

Brunson: Yeah.

Interviewer: And you didn't go to college in those days.

Brunson: Yes, I did.

Interviewer: You did. 4:00All right.

Brunson: I was, went down to Bowling Green to Western Kentucky College at that time, which later became the university. And I went down there two years. I graduated from high school in 1923, and I went down there two years, and I married in May of '25.

Interviewer: Did they offer an associate degree then?

Brunson: No, they didn't. I was so in love. And I didn't get an education. I thought you were supposed to have a good time. And that I did.

Interviewer: I think they still have a good time down there.

Brunson: I think they do, too.

Interviewer: All right, Mary, do we need any more information? Can you tell me your brothers? Think of your brothers.

Brunson: My brothers.

Interviewer: Yes.

Brunson: Ogden Stiles was named Ogden Willy Stiles from my father's father. That was his full name. and Ogden was born just up the hill from Maude as you go to (Friendville?). My Ogden Stiles was named Ogden Willy Stiles from my father's father. That was his full name. And Ogden was born just up the hill from Maude as you go to (Friendville?). My father built 5:00Mother a new house over there on the hill. We went back (late October?), it's still there. Ogden was born there. And then we moved to Springfield to that place there on the (Macville Road?). And we didn't get possession of the house until the first of January. And they had to give possession of the farm where they were. They'd sold it. So they moved into the cabin, which was right in the yard back of the big house. And Robert Stiles was born the twelfth of December in, Ogden was born in '95, and Robert in '98, I believe. And we always (hid?) Robert. He was born in the cabin there. And then they moved in the big house, and I was born there in June of 1904.

Interviewer: So it's Ogden? 6:00Brunson: Ogden (Louis?) Stiles, and Robert Hugh Stiles. (?) And Mother had lost a little girl in the meantime, just six months old.

Interviewer: Well, can we bring you up to 1920?

Brunson: 1920. Well, yes.

Interviewer: Into the beginning of Prohibition as it happened. On the twentieth of January, that year, the Nelson (family?) Brunson: 1920.

Interviewer: Now you were how old?

Brunson: Well, I was born in 1904, so I was sixteen. And we were living there at the (?) on the corner of Fifth and (Frage?), and it's still there now. Bobby (Hearse?) just sold it a year or so ago.

Interviewer: Shadowlawn, they call it.

Brunson: Shadowlawn. The (Figgers?) named it Shadowlawn. 7:00And it was a real showplace in Bardstown. Still is. And then I don't remember about them voting Prohibition out, but I remember the bootleg era. And people, and then the whiskey that was stored in the warehouses, and we had Tom Moore Distillery down there under the hill, and we had Withrow Distillery, which is out Withrow Lane and later became known as (Shellham?) Distillery. And of course we had Early Times Distillery when I was a little girl. And we didn't have this tax paid whiskey that is so important now. And in the fall, you'd go by the distillery and Mr. Jack Beam, who was (Barbara's?) grandfather. That's where Barbara got all her money. 8:00Mr. Jack Beam, when you went by the distillery they just give you a, (don't you want?) a bottle of whiskey. And they were in quarts then. And my father would have me stop at the drugstore and get a little box about that big square, and they'd call it rock candy. And he'd put it in the bottle of whiskey and shake it up and set it on the mantel by the clock. And when we would be out in the winter, tending to the stock, he always had cold feet, bless his heart. Why he'd come in and sit down by the fire and bake his feet and he'd shake that up and just take a swallow out of it, and he'd sit there on the-- I grew up with whiskey in the house, but it was never abused. And when I was a teenager and would have a pain in my (?), my mother would say, "I'll fix you a little toddy." And she'd mix a little sugar and water and a spoonful of whiskey, and maybe 9:00a little lemon juice if she had it, and to warm me up inside. And I think about, like many other things, like food. A lot of us abuse food. So we can't outlaw it. And I don't think we can have prohibition against many things. Now like tobacco. When I hear them talk about it, it's silly. But anyway, we lived there at the (?) place, and people started making their own moonshine in the copper stills. And then they started stealing whiskey out of the warehouses. And they had guards that walked around the warehouses all night. And so, I know this for (?). 10:00Mr. (Jordan?) Hall, who was Miss Emily Hall's father, and they lived right down there almost out of where Miss (Wheat?) lives now, that little--

Interviewer: South Third Street?

Brunson: No, the other street that goes this way. Is it Muir Avenue?

Interviewer: Yes.

Brunson: Well, it's right down there next to where the (?) laundry is, I think. And that's (?), Miss Emily lives there, and Mr. Hall. And I remember Mr. Hall was one of the guards. And I remember a businessman in Bardstown telling me now he was one guard who could not be bought off. No way. But they, the people that were stealing the whiskey out of the warehouses, and I don't know how they would do but run it out of the barrels down some way, and when the guards left this corner to go to 11:00(?) while they get up in the warehouse and do this. And of course a lot of the guards looked the other way. But I remember this man that was doing this, he said now Mr. (Jordan?) Hall was one man, there was no way you could buy him off.

Interviewer: Well, was he a federal agent?

Brunson: No. Just a local man.

Interviewer: No. He was just hired? I see.

Brunson: To guard the distillery. To guard the whiskey that was in the warehouses.

Interviewer: Well what happened to those warehouses and all that whiskey?

Brunson: Well, it finally, well, during Prohibition, doctors could give a prescription for half a pint of whiskey and you take a teaspoon full with sugar and water every four hours. And there was a doctor, must I name names?

Interviewer: Yes.

Brunson: There was a Dr. (Tip?) that moved to Bardstown. And he had an office over in the (Oaklid?) Building now, was up in there. And he was known to give prescriptions. 12:00And just for a regular office call. And of course they were very much in demand.

Interviewer: Well, is there any other medicine out that you can remember?

Brunson: I don't--

Interviewer: In a drugstore (?) Brunson: Geritol hadn't come out then.

Interviewer: That's right. Had aspirin?

Brunson: Oh, I'm sure we had aspirin.

Interviewer: Just barely.

Brunson: When I was about eleven or twelve, I had three mastoid operations. And that's why I know Louisville so well. I stayed down at old St. Joseph's on Fourth Street two months without going home, and then I came back to Louisville on the Bardstown train every Wednesday and Saturday for one whole year. And we had all day to kill, because we couldn't get 13:00my ear treatment and get back on that next train. We'd stay all day. So that's the reason I know Louisville so well.

Interviewer: That's wonderful.

Brunson: People now just marvel that I can go downtown by myself. Of course it's changed considerably. But anyway, about the whiskey. Now Mother says that those trucks rumbled by all night. And where they'd gotten that whiskey, I don't know. But someplace that I'm sure wasn't legal. Or maybe it was moonshine. Well, occasionally the Prohibition officer, Big (?) Henderson was one of the main Prohibition officers, I think he (?) everybody knew Big (Six?). And then of course if they see a little smoke over yonder on the hill, they'd know it was a moonshine still. And I guess depending 14:00on who it was, they would raid it and cut up the still so they couldn't make whiskey again until the next week when they'd get it all assembled again in another location.

Interviewer: Well, do you remember many arrests?

Brunson: Yes, occasionally. One night, my brother Ogden Stiles was coming to Louisville. And he had a little (Essex) with red wire wheels. And we lived there at the (Figger?) place. And Ogden was quite a man about town. And he was delivering some whiskey to Louisville, somebody. And the Prohibition officers, now a lot of them were paid off, they recognized your car. You just had to stand (and ?) with them, I suppose. So one night Ogden was coming to Louisville, and they arrested him. He and his wife, she was (? Hinkle?), were staying down to our house, (Figger?) place. So Ogden didn't come home till late. Hurried out the door Sunday morning. And (?) 15:00he gave a fictitious name, but a name she would know. And had been arrested by a Prohibition officer with two or three small kegs of whiskey in the trunk of his car. And then one night up at Danville, I knew was up there for a dance, and I don't know whether he was drinking or whether he did a traffic violation, but they pulled him over. I don't know whether he had whiskey in his car or whether he was drinking or what. But I remembered so well Ogden saying, "There I was, sitting in jail, and (?)." He had been up to Danville to a dance. And now my mother always said, Mother had all this family 16:00scandal in her scrapbook. And Mother (?) "You don't mean that you put this in there!" Mother said, "If people don't want to be talked about, let them behave themselves."

Interviewer: Hey, she was a modern woman.

Brunson: And so, but poor (?), and I remember a man in Bardstown, now I wouldn't call his name, but he was one of them that was stealing whiskey out of the warehouses. And he was telling me about it. He became very prosperous all of a sudden. And he had a red Buick. And I was only one of the girls, cause we had two or three cars at home, and I was only one of the girls that he would let drive his car. And when Bardstown baseball team was in its heyday, and they'd play at Elizabethtown on a Sunday or Monday, (Nebrasko?) Sunday or Monday, and Harrisburg 17:00Sunday or Monday, and the whole town just closed up. That's another thing that we ought to have on tape. You know, I was out in Bardstown last year, and were you at the (?) for that recording session?

Interviewer: No.

Brunson: Well, they had two recorders in the great room, one down here and one down here, and I just told a lot of this local color. And I have told over and over that they're going to be so sorry that this isn't on the record, a lot of these things that were in Bardstown. But I don't know any way to do it. Of course, I talk, I never get tired of talking the old, the man next door calls me windy, says she never stops talking. But Prohibition, and so this man, and it happened he was a Catholic. And he and I could discuss religion. And before you leave, I might tell you who it was, but we don't need to put it on record. 18:00And I was a Methodist, and we would talk, and he would tell me. And I said, "What are you doing about stealing this whiskey?" "Well," he said, "Mildred, I don't know who it belongs to." Different people, you see, owned this whiskey, and what they called the warehouse receipt. They collected payment, I guess, for storage. I don't know how all that worked. But anyway, and I said, "What will you do about confessing that?" He said, "Well, I talked to the priest about it. But since I don't know who I'm stealing from," 19:00but he knew it was stealing.

Interviewer: So because he doesn't know (?) he feels okay?

Brunson: (?) you know, we just--

Interviewer: Rationalize.

Brunson: There's nothing like rationalizing about something. But anyway, it's too bad. And you can't prohibit something, you know.

Interviewer: Not really.

Brunson: Can't do it.

Interviewer: You can't force morals. Well how were the churches? What stance were they taking? Did you hear a lot of preaching about it?

Brunson: No. No. No, I didn't. And of course the Methodists are strictly against whiskey. And my nephew says it's the craziest thing there ever was. I was down with him in church in Baton Rouge one Sunday, and they want everybody to sign a pledge that they wouldn't touch a drop of whiskey. (HB?) said, "Well, they're crazy! I'm not going to sign any such thing." And it's like everything else. It can be abused. And, as I said, I grew up with it in the house. And the man in charge of the (dining room?) here is a big fellow. And he was a Lutheran minister. And he teased me about those heavenly hills 20:00out there. I said, "I was the only woman in Nelson County didn't drink." So, and at Christmas we had custard on the table and Mother would say, "Does anybody want a spoonful of whiskey in their custard?" And she reached in the cupboard and sent the bottle out and somebody takes a teaspoon full and puts it in their cup of custard. But it's too bad that we can't do things in moderation. But if you, many things, you all getting into this history, I don't imagine you have much moderation about it. I bet you've gone off the deep end about this.

Interviewer: We're trying to be moderate.

Brunson: Are you? Yeah. All right. Now what else you want to know?

Interviewer: What about the climate of the town? Did everybody accept that it was shut down but that it would go on anyway? You know, was it illegal but legal?

Brunson: I remember well when it was repealed, and everybody went to (?) to get beer. The day that 21:00they could sell it, they had it made, you see. But they took trucks, and my brother, Ogden Stiles, had opened the Old Kentucky Home sweet shop, which is there where (Lawson's?) restaurant was on the corner, on the alley, where Mr. Dobbs had the shoe store. That was Lawson's restaurant. And Mrs. (?) and Hugo Lawson ran it. And they kept a big round glass thing and they kept ham sandwiches made up on the buns (?). We used to go in there and buy them. And then the next store, which was later Bear's, 22:00Ogden built a sweet shop there. And it's called Old Kentucky Home Sweet Shop. And I think he opened it about, Mother had a full page ad, it was in the Standard, about in 1922, I think. And then later they built the big gymnasium back of that where they had the dances. The sweet shop gym. But I remember, I'm sure Ogden had that open when beer came in.

Interviewer: So that would have been the '30s when beer was back in again. The repeal.

Brunson: Yeah. Well, I'm not sure he had it then. I don't know who he sold it to. I've forgotten. I let Ogden die without finding out several things I needed to know. One or two little scandals. But we had lots of it.

Interviewer: Bardstown was full of it, but it never did stop it or change it. It just kept going on. Well what did you think as you got older, and people continued to do this illegal practice? Did 23:00you take exception with that? Or did you just begin to accept it like--

Brunson: No, just accept it. A preacher here in Louisville had this, I tried to remember this word. And he talked about (?) and I meant to call up and get him at the Southeast Christian Church. Well Bob Russell, he's just a kid. And I hear him every Sunday on the radio. And he said this, first you abhor it, and then you endear it, and then you embrace it. And I think today that this is the way we do. Something you don't approve of, it's just terrible. And then you decide well maybe it isn't so bad. And then you embrace it. And that was the way, that was the way people did about (?) People had moonshining stills, 24:00and they'd tell about who made the best moonshine. And they'd put it in these charred kegs, and the mill down in Bardstown would fill in all the meal and sugar to make this moonshine. So they were in on it. And that was where Mr. (Keith?) made his money. Maxine Keith's father, and Paul Keith's father.

Interviewer: Did they own the mill at that time?

Brunson: Yes, they did. They came there from someplace and bought the mill. And supplied the moonshiners with their sugar and their meal and their, I guess yeast.

Interviewer: Well at this time then, the fortunes changed. Those that had had a lot of money in the legal business lost a lot. 25:00And others that took up the illegal business got rich.

Brunson: I guess so.

Interviewer: Can you tell us any particular family that suffered tremendous loss and having been in the ownership lost and so forth?

Brunson: No. I remember--

Interviewer: There was no dramatic?

Brunson: I remember that the Barton Distillery now was Mr. Tom Moore. And I remember one time the distillery caught on fire, and the whiskey barrels, I guess, burned. And the whiskey ran down the river on fire. I don't know what year that was, but I remember well it happening.

Interviewer: It must have been frightening.

Brunson: I guess it was.

Interviewer: Was there a lot of explosion and all that?

Brunson: Yeah.

Interviewer: Do you remember Mr. Moore?

Brunson: Oh, yes, I remember him well.

Interviewer: Well, could you give us a little description of him?

Brunson: Mr. Tom Moore, he was just a real Southern gentleman. And his son was Con Moore, who later married Muriel. His first wife was a sister of Miss 26:00(John P. McGuiness?) boy. And but Mr. Tom Moore, and then he restored that little brick house right there as you go across the field, the little house on the left. And we didn't have the field at that time. And that little house there, he married a lovely lady the second time. And I can't think of the name, but she came to our garden club. And they restored that little house there and lived in it. After he died, she lived there. He had, Mr. Tom Moore, had Con Moore (?) and you know, I don't want to get the (?) and the Moores and the people mixed up. I can't remember. His son had 27:00married an (Eadman?) whose home was what we would call the (Kennis?) place out in Maple Hill, where Carl Pash and his wife lived. Well that's where Mr., I believe Mr. Henry Eadman and Mr. Henry Eadman's daughter married. Now I'm thinking of Dick Eadman. Dick Eadman, there was Dick Eadman and R.H. Eadman who lived down there on South Third Street in that big house with Dr., Dr., what's his name?

Interviewer: Dr. Harry (?) Brunson: No, no, no. On the other street. (Forfee?), Dr. (Forfee?). Now that was the Kelly home. Mr. Kelly.

Interviewer: All these Bardstown families are so intermarried, it's really hard to 28:00separate the families.

Brunson: When (?) Guthrie died, I wrote Newman a letter. And I said, "Newman, I'm one of the few people left that knew both sets of your grandparents." And Mr. Kelly, Mr. John F. Kelly, who was Jack Kelly's grandfather, they lived down there where Dr. (Forfee?) lives. And Mrs. Kelly, Sabina's mother, was a second wife. And her brother, Bethel, Bethel Kelly. And I can see Ms. Kelly now. I don't imagine you remember 29:00Sabina's mother. But she was a lovely regal lady and she walked Mr. Kelly all the time on her arm and of course he was a very fine attorney. And then the first children, the Kelly children, were Victor and John F. Kelly. And they had a sister who died young. And I think she's the one that married Vic (Skiedlin?), who was Mr. Henry (?) Interviewer: Were all these people involved in distilling? Were any or most of those were--

Brunson: I think the Eadmans were all involved in distilling.

Interviewer: Did they work for the Moore distillery?

Brunson: I don't know if they did. I don't know who worked where.

Interviewer: Mattingly Moore.

Brunson: Mattingly Moore. Now I don't know who that (?) was. And honey, we had saloons down on Main Street.

Interviewer: Well, tell us about those saloons now, because we can't get the picture of them.

Brunson: Well, the Old Tub Saloon, Stephen Foster hotel now was called, it was called the Old Kentucky Home Hotel. And it had 30:00two front entrances. And the main entrance went in here now where the Farmers Bank new building is now, it was the Old Kentucky Home Hotel. And it got kind of a bad reputation for paying bills back here two or three owners back. So they named it then the Stephen Foster Hotel. But right, and it had two front entrances. And everybody went in the front, but on the right there was a room for the drummers to display their wares. Bardstown was quite a center. Louisville used to come to Bardstown to buy their-- [End Side A. Begin Side B.] Brunson: Outside of the hotel, there was a saloon in there and they had big windows. And now one of the saloons was called the Old Tub Saloon. And I've forgotten 31:00who owned it or which. And then right down beyond what is now the People's Bank building, and where the Louisville store is, there was another saloon and I forget the name of it. But my father bought that building. It's the Louisville store building now. And he bought that building. And at different times, Robert Stiles and Ogden had pool rooms in there. But it had been a former saloon. And Mr. (Bibley?), Barbara (Bibley's?) father, that's Ed (Bibley?), operated one of these saloons. I don't know which one. And when Barbara ran off and married Bill (Bibley?), Mr. 32:00Ed (Bibley?) was Bill's father and they lived down there where the (Ernest Folkland?) lived. And Barbara's grandfather, of course, was Mr. (?) Interviewer: Jack Beam.

Brunson: What?

Interviewer: Jack Beam.

Brunson: Yeah, Mr. Jack Beam. And so, Mother has it in her scrapbook, daughter of distillery owner runs off to marry, at sixteen, to marry her childhood sweetheart, son of a saloonkeeper. And Mr. John Shawnee was Mr. Jack Beam's right hand man at the distillery. And Mr. Shawnee was her guardian. And of course they did everything they could to keep her. But she ran off and married Bill, went across Jeffersonville. And that was another thing. We had a ferry down here that crossed the river to Jeffersonville. And somebody in Bardstown, I can't think who it was, heard that one of the children run off. And they came to (?) and the ferry 33:00pulled out just ahead of them. They were up there on the bank. That hasn't got a thing to do with whiskey.

Interviewer: It's all entangled.

Brunson: Those saloons right there, everything's entangled. But I remember a saloon right to the left, north of the Stephen Foster Hotel. And then the one right down here along about where the Louisville Distillery is now.

Interviewer: Did they come on down the block?

Brunson: They're the only two I remember when I was a little girl.

Interviewer: Well, did the girls stay away from that side of town and walk down the other side of the street?

Brunson: I don't recall it.

Interviewer: I've heard that.

Brunson: I don't recall that.

Interviewer: Tell me something about Mr. Jack Beam. Was he Mr. Jim Beam's first cousin?

Brunson: They weren't closely related.

Interviewer: But there was a relation.

Brunson: There was a relationship. 34:00Interviewer: But they were in two different distilleries. Is this correct?

Brunson: Well, Mr. Jim Beam had the distillery there at Nazareth that we called, I can't think of the name of that distillery.

Interviewer: (?) Bourbon Springs?

Brunson: Bourbon Springs, maybe it was. And you see, when they sold these things, now this was where Will (Souse?) got his start. They sold the warehouses and tore them down. And they had all this wonderful lumber. And of course sold it cheap to get them torn down. And I guess Will (Souse?) bought one or two of those. But Mr. and Mrs. Jim Beam lived out there on the left side of that Nazareth Road as you go round, back there, it was back off the road about as far as from here to that tall building. And they lived out there at one time when Mr. Beam 35:00ran that distillery.

Interviewer: Do you remember Mrs. Beam?

Brunson: Oh! Honey, we lived next door to them up on North Third Street.

Interviewer: Oh, really? Well, was her name May?

Brunson: May.

Interviewer: May Montgomery Beam?

Brunson: May (Meninx?) Interviewer: Mr. Jim Beam.

Brunson: Yeah.

Interviewer: And his wife. And they lived close to you.

Brunson: Yeah. Next door.

Interviewer: And so you knew them pretty well.

Brunson: I'll tell you a cute story, too, about Mr. Beam, if you want to record it.

Interviewer: We do.

Brunson: Well, you going to record it?

Interviewer: It's on.

Brunson: Mr. Beam had a colored man that drove for him. Logan, I believe. And Mr. Beam chewed tobacco. And (Lum?) would be up front, driving. Mr. Beam was sitting up front. Mr. Beam would spit a wad of tobacco out the door, and he'd say, "May, did that hit you?" So one day Mr. Beam wanted to come down here to an osteopath that used to live in Bardstown. So (Lum?) was sick that day, couldn't come. And Miss Davis, who lived on the corner 36:00where Sadie lives now, I think, she said, "Mr. Beam, maybe Mildred would drive you." And my mother had died in the meantime. So he came over and asked me and I said, "Yes, I'd be glad to." So I just tooled that Cadillac right down the road and we went to the osteopath and came back home. And Mr. Beam had his clothes made at (Angelucci's ?) and Ringo in Lexington, who were the foremost tailors of that time. Mr. Beam was a large man. And he started having his pants cut this way, you know, like they do now, where you, pocket goes in this way instead of way down here. So we were living at the Samuels place, and it had a big double two-car garage built onto the back. So I had my washing machine out there, and I made soap all the time. We cooked so many hams, and had so much grease, Mother always made soap, and she had 37:00two square enamel pans. So I was making, Mrs. Beam and Mrs. Davis were over there. And we were stirring. And when you first put the lye in the water, why, it bubbles. So some of it bubbled up and hit Mr. Beam's pants, and made some pinholes. The next day Mr. Beam said, "May, I wish you'd look at my pants on my new suit." Mrs. Beam said, "If you'd been home where you belonged, you wouldn't have had (?)." And Mr. Beam was a very forceful man, but I don't think he ever got anything off of Mrs. Beam.

Interviewer: Good for her.

Brunson: She was such a darling. She was so dear. And then Margaret Beam, her daughter, lived next door to (?) in Springfield. And they're still living in that house. So, now next? I don't remember any other characters.

Interviewer: Well, tell us about some of the other distilleries 38:00in town. What about Mr. Guthrie?

Brunson: Mr. Louis Guthrie, he worked out at Early Times Distillery for Mr., I guess he started with Mr. Beam out there, and then Mr. Shawnee was manager, and then Mr. Guthrie, and then Mr. Guthrie and about four or five men, Mr. Guthrie and Harlan (Masses?), and maybe Will Stiles, four or five men built what they called Fairfield Distillery right there on the Bloomfield Road by the railroad. And now there's not distillery there, but I think there's a warehouse or two.

Interviewer: And the Browns owned the distilling though for Early Times, didn't they?

Brunson: JTS Brown, (Creo?) Brown.

Interviewer: Yes.

Brunson: Yes. JTS Brown and (Creo's?) wife, Leila, and I finished high school together. And she still lives down here, out at Anchorage. 39:00And (Creo?) named his daughter Joanne Thomas Street Brown, so she would be JTS Brown.

Interviewer: We have their code of arms at the museum.

Brunson: Yeah.

Interviewer: Tell me about this Mr. Shawnee. I hear his name mentioned so often, I'm not sure of him.

Brunson: Mr. Shawnee, I can see him now. when I was a little girl and we lived there two miles from town where Tubby Hayden and Margaret live now, I'd drive my pony car around Magruder Bend. Do you all know where Magruder Bend is? Where the lake was for a while. And that, it goes down, 40:00the old swimming pool and under the trestle, and up the hill and around Magruder Bend. And then we'd turn up there and on out to Bloomfield Road. Well then they changed that and built the Bloomfield Road on down to Wickland. You used to go into Wickland from down there on the Bloomfield Springfield Road. There's a gate there now. You used to go in that way. But then they built the road the other way. And they closed that entrance. But I think eventually they'll open that up.

Interviewer: Maybe. Because they're going to have more traffic down there with Bardstown Village. Tell me about Mr. Shawnee.

Brunson: I remember Mr. Shawnee. They had that house up on North Third Street, where Jerry Durham used to live. And Ms. John Newman and her husband built that house. When Ms. Newman died, Sally Newman, I was working at the (Sanders?) and (Liz Spalding?) said that she built the house, the Elmer Grigsby house, and then she built the (Sammy Singles?) house on the corner next to it. (?) she built what we call the Shawnee 41:00house. "Oh, no," (Liv?) said. "No, Mildred, you're mixed up about things." That (?) I knew what I was talking about. About two days later, Liv said, "Mildred, you were right about that!" Said, "Miss Newman did build that house." I said, "Well, I knew it all the time, but you didn't." And so Mr. and Mrs. Shawnee lived there. And they didn't have any children. And he had one of the first cars in the county. And my father did, too. And I would drive my pony cart to school and come around that bend and at that bend they had a big sign that said, "You have a horn on your car." Big brass horn you did this way, and they were called klaxons. K-l-a-x-o-n, or t-o-n. And so there was a sign, "Sound klaxon," going around the bend, you know. And I'd be coming to town to school, or home 42:00from school, and Mr. Shawnee would be going the other way. And he'd take a wide curve there, you know. And I remember telling my daddy, "I met Mr. Shawnee this morning, this afternoon down there on Magruder Bend, and he was way off his side of the road." And I didn't like it, but he was a big man. My mother has a picture of him in her scrapbook. One of those scrapbooks that (?) bought for me. And when they adopted her nephew, they called him Jodie Thorpe was his name before they, and then they called him Jodie Shawnee. And then I think he went back to the Thorpe.

Interviewer: Jodie (?) Brunson: Yeah.

Interviewer: Now how about Jackie and Jodie Thorpe's father--

Brunson: Yeah, yeah.

Interviewer: How was he into distilling? Did he work with--

Brunson: No, he didn't work for them.

Interviewer: He did not.

Brunson: He just lived with the Shawnees. And I guess that maybe he was spoiled. I don't know. He married young. 43:00Catherine Boone.

Interviewer: So, anyway, what else do we want to ask you? Can you remember the city and county officials at that time? During the Prohibition time, that maybe would have had a hard time keeping law and order?

Brunson: I just really don't.

Interviewer: Do you remember any occasions when there were severe happenings around drinking a certain moonshine? Do you remember people getting ill? Or do you remember any of those circumstances?

Brunson: No. I really don't. I remember different people. And they argue they couldn't make a living if they didn't make moonshine. Well, of course, they could. They can make a living now. One made (?) on a program 44:00about tobacco. I said, "My father was a farmer and he raised tobacco. But he always said, 'I don't use it. I just raise it for the other fellow.' But," I said, "don't tell me that farmers can't make a living without raising tobacco. Because I know good and well they could. They could have sweet corn and let the housewives know when it would be ready for the freezer." I said, "Don't tell me, I know they could make a living without tobacco. It was just they just thought they couldn't." Have change of pace, see, we don't want to change. And we don't want anybody to tell us what we can and can't do.

Interviewer: And we want to make a lot of money fast.

Brunson: Oh, yes! That's one of the problems.

Interviewer: Well can you tell me about Washington County? What was happening in Washington County when all this was going on? Do you remember?

Brunson: Well, I don't remember. I remember when whiskey came back, 45:00the people that had the whiskey stores were (Haldine Camel?) and (Al Camel?), his brother married Polly Yankee. They moved to Bardstown and had a whiskey store right along up there for the Louisville store, right along in there where there was a finance company. And they had a whiskey store there. And Uncle Joe Hearst had one. And there's one down McFadden Street. There were lots of them. And then Bill (Dean?) had one right there, (?) grocery. And I say all the time, I'm not so prejudiced about it, and my mother wasn't. I thought anything she did was absolutely all right. But I remember one time I stopped at (Ice's?) grocery, and there was a man going in Bill Beam's liquor store. And there was a guy wire on the telephone pole there. 46:00And this man takes this little boy about six years old, says, "You stand right there now and hold to that wire and Daddy will be right back." So he went in the whiskey store, of course, and got his bottle and took it out, took the little boy's hand and away they went. But as I said, like many other things, I eat too much. And you might as well abuse whiskey. It doesn't make you quite as easy if you eat too much, but sometimes, maybe, I always qualify that. I think, I knew it wouldn't take long for me to tell you everything I know.

Interviewer: You think that's about it?

Brunson: I believe that's about it.

Interviewer: Mary, do you have any questions?

Interviewer: Real fine job. Wonderful.

Interviewer: I'm just trying to think if there's any other family. Can you tell us anything about the Samuels family? You know, they were many, many years, they still are, into the making of Maker's Mark. 47:00Brunson: Yeah, yeah. Well of course his distillery was down in Deatsville.

Interviewer: Yes.

Brunson: And after the war, then, they came back, and Mr. Beam and Mr. Samuels lived side by side in big houses, big columns, and Mr. Samuels built those warehouses at Deatsville that are shaped like this?

Interviewer: Yes.

Brunson: And Mr. Beam said, "Now, Leslie, the whiskey will not cure!" You know you have to have the barrels turned a certain way in the warehouses. And the warehouses have to be built in a certain direction. And I've heard Mr. Beam, Mrs. Beam tell that, that, said, "Jim told Mr. Samuels that that, they say it wouldn't work this way." But then, I guess, it did.

Interviewer: They're still using it, I believe.

Brunson: Still using it. Well, I don't guess anybody's making whiskey anymore, are they? Barton is making whiskey, I reckon.

Interviewer: Barton's 48:00making whiskey. Heaven Hill is making whiskey. Maker's Mark is making some whiskey.

Brunson: Yeah.

Interviewer: And (?) has even started their Boston plant again.

Brunson: Have they really? For a while, they said people were drinking scotch and other things and vodka, and they weren't drinking bourbon.

Interviewer: Well, I don't think they're drinking like they once were. But they're still making it. And they have opened some markets now, big markets, in Japan. So that's changing.

Interviewer: There was a distillery out 62, right outside the edge of town, called (Wolford?).

Brunson: Called what?

Interview: Wolford Distillery.

Brunson: Yes! The (Walker?) Distillery, that was on (Showhan?) Lane, I think, the Walker Distillery, wasn't it?

Interviewer: Well, they said there was one right out where the old State Garage is, or was.

Brunson: Yes.

Interviewer: Maybe several years ago.

Brunson: Yeah.

Interviewer: And what about the one down below the hill? Not too many people seem to know about that.

Brunson: I didn't know about it. 49:00I remember the Walker Distillery there. I remember the name being familiar, but I don't know where it was. Now the Withrow Distillery, when you went out Bardstown on the train and, see, I came to Louisville every Wednesday and Saturday for a full year on the train. And the conductor would say, "Withrow!" And that was the first distillery out of Bardstown. And then the next one, I guess, was Claremont. That was Beam. And then we got down to Chapeze. And the ladies would all get on in the morning that worked in the bottling house to go to the distillery. And then in the afternoon, we came back to (?) And one time I was driving to Louisville on down there by (Burnham?) Distillery, and I saw a sign that said Chapeze and it just turned off the road and drove down that way. 50:00And they had the prettiest little buildings. And they were right on the railroad when I was a little girl. I don't know what they were that day I saw them. And then there were all the stations, Captain Sommers was the conductor on that train. And that's another thing about Mr. Jim Beam. He walked down every morning to the train, and he got there by Wilson Motel just when the train was stopping. And they of course would hold it for him if he wasn't there. And he'd get on, Captain Sommers was his name. And they'd call all those stations. "Belmont! Withrow! Chapeze!" All of them.

Interviewer: Could you tell me anything about the Chapeze? Do you know any of those people that ran that?

Brunson: No. No. Except they were just pretty little English style buildings. And right there on the railroad.

Interviewer: Had that little Tudor style--

Brunson: Yeah, yeah. Have you ever been down by Chapeze?

Interviewer: Yeah. They're 51:00my relatives.

Brunson: Are they?

Interviewer: They're all gone. Yes. Well, let's see. We've pretty well covered all the distillers and the (?) change people. (?) How do you think it changed people?

Brunson: Prohibition? Well, I really don't know. I don't--

Interviewer: Were people pretty moral then? Or did it change people, the way they thought?

Brunson: Well, I think they used to say that somebody would meet a bootlegger and get a load of whiskey, and before he got out on the Louisville Road, why, they had arranged for somebody to hold him up and steal it. But I don't know whether those tales were true or not.

Interviewer: Do you remember anything about bankruptcies? People 52:00losing everything? Did it feel severe?

Brunson: No. No, I really don't.

Interviewer: Nobody was that hungry or Bardstown didn't just fold up?

Brunson: Well, I tell you what. During the Depression, Mr. Ben Johnson was state highway commissioner. And he kind of took care of the Bardstown people. And they had jobs on the highway. And I will tell you a little story about Will (Souse?). He, I don't know where Will lived, and then he bought the place on the corner where the bonded gasoline place is.

Interviewer: Was that (?) Brunson: No. (?) later. But the people that lived there were old Mr. and Mrs. (Havelin?). Chuck Havelin's family. And Miss Kate Lewis' parents, and Miss Pearl Tuttle's family, 53:00parents. And Mr. Chuck Havelin. I don't know whether there were any other children or not. And anyway, old Mr. Havelin had a little grocery right on the corner of the lot. And then their house set back, little old house. And Lucy Lewis, who was Kate Havelin Lewis' daughter and I were great friends, Christine and Richard, the three. And they lived there on Broadway. I understand that they're going to take off that porch. Well the house, somebody said, "It always had a porch." I said, "Uh uh. I have a Kodak picture of it." And you just walk right up the steps to a screen door. And Freeman (Corelli?) lived right across the street, where the Browns did live, and now the, can't call the name right on the alley.

Interviewer: (Goss?) Brunson: (Goss?). And Freeman was a baby. And I was with Lucy Lewis all the time. 54:00And May Lewis, her first cousin, and Miss Willis' daughter and only child, died during the flu epidemic. But I had Kodak pictures of us out in the yard. And Lucy and (Elda Arl?), who lived where (Hearse?) lives now. And we were holding Freeman (Gerozi's?) baby. And when Freeman's son married--

Interviewer: Bart?

Brunson: No, the other one. Jimmy. He and Betty (?) went to school together. I took these Kodak pictures of Freeman down to him. And Freeman Caruther's father always wore overalls, Fat Jim. He showed, we used to have the county fair out there, north of town, at Nazareth, where the road goes down. That was the Nelson County Fairgrounds. And we had the best one in the state. And they showed the babies. And, prettiest baby, you know. And Fat Jim Caruthers showed Freeman. Everybody just screamed and hollered, "Give it to the man! Give it to the man!" And of course 55:00Freeman got the thing for the prettiest. Cute! And you know, I was telling Beverly and HD, Robert (Souse's?) son and daughter, the only niece and nephew I had, about when their father ran Joyland out the fairgrounds. "Well," they said, "Mildred, I've never heard of it." I said, "Well lord, I don't plan to go back to Bardstown anymore, but I'm going to have to go and find somebody who knew when Robert had kind of a nightclub out there on the (?) where the ham place is now. That was part of it. And he opened up just a nightclub out there, and it was called Joyland. Well, HD and (?), neither one ever heard of it. Well you see, I've let them all get away now. Now Louise Simpson might know about it, and B.B. Cisco might know about it. But I'm going to have to find somebody that knows about that, so I can tell the 56:00children there's one of Robert's escapades. My brothers were always into something.

Interviewer: They sound like they were very enterprising.

Brunson: They were.

Interviewer: What about Mr. Will?

Brunson: Will Stiles, now Will Stiles, honey, he could trade you out of your eye teeth! But he was the most charitable person. And Broadway wasn't paved then. And they lived there where the filling station is now. Will bought that house and remodeled it. And honey, it was the last word. I remember him showing us through it. He was so proud of it. And when you opened the closet door, the light came on. And they had a back porch, screened porch. And they had a refrigerator that you could put the ice in from on the porch, and then the refrigerator was into the kitchen. 57:00I'd never known anybody--

Interviewer: Well, how did he make his money?

Brunson: Now, there's a question. I think he and this man that was taking the whiskey out of the warehouse, I think they were in cahoots. But anyway, one winter, I guess during the Depression, Will Stiles had a carload of coal unloaded right there at the side of his house. And anybody in town that wanted to get buckets and buckets of coal, that was for them.

Interviewer: He did a lot of good.

Brunson: Lots of good. Lots of good. And Nanny Stiles was a Rapier. She and Kate's (?) were sisters, and they lived down there where Ellen and Ferd Rapier lived. That was where Nanny's people lived, when I remember them. And Nanny and Leon, and he (?) over New Haven. And I forgot 58:00who else her family was. But there was never a--

Interviewer: Steve.

Brunson: Steve. Was that one of her brothers? There never was a finer woman in Bardstown than Nanny Stiles.

Interviewer: I know she reared some grandchildren.

Brunson: Yes she did. Jack was a rounder. But anyway, she was a fine, fine person.

Interviewer: Well was Will involved with Mr. Guthrie in some of their enterprises?

Brunson: I don't know. I know they were close, close friends. Is this on the recorder? One time, Will and Louis Guthrie stayed out all night playing cards, I think. And Nanny and Miss Guthrie, what was her name? I won't call her Mamie, but-- Amy. Amy Guthrie. So Nanny Stiles never did know how to drive. But Miss Guthrie did. 59:00So they were mad because their husbands were out all night, I guess playing cards. So they just said they'd go to Florida. So they just stopped down at the bank and got a roll of money and took off. So somebody saw Will or Louis Guthrie, one of them, on the street, and said, "When's your wife coming home?" He said, "I don't know. I haven't heard from her." And the next two or three days they'd ask Louis Guthrie or Will, said, "When are the women coming home?" He said, "Well, they called the night before last. They didn't say anything about coming home." Next day come. Said, "Well, I just don't know when they coming home, but they took enough money with them to stay all winter. And we just don't know when they're coming home." And you know, I love women that are independent.

Interviewer: Well, tell us about the banks.

Brunson: The banks. Well, Mr. Guthrie came into the Farmers Bank and worked 60:00there. And there were never more popular people. See this is, I wrote Newman, they were living next door to me when Newman was born. And I wrote Newman a letter, and I just have it ready to (?) But I was a little surprised that he didn't say, and I told him that they were living next door to me when he was born. And Miss Kelly took care of him. And Sabina went to work for the REA when it was in the little brick building that (Charles McCoy?) owned. They first came to town, and I can't think of the man's name that had it, but lovely couple. Anyway, Sabina worked for REA. And Miss Kelly took care of Newman. And then the afternoon was the western sun and Miss Kelly put the baby out in the shade of the house in the playpen. And I had young (Ned?) round at my house. And we could see him out the window, 61:00you know, and I'd go get him. And one of the men would say, "Miss Brunson, are you going to get the baby?" And so I went over. And I never thought to call and tell Miss Kelly. And Sabina, I guess, got home and the baby wasn't there, and where's the baby? (?) And it's times like this, you know, call, "Mildred, have you got the baby?" I said, "Yes, he's over here." And the men just blinking like (?) But you see, it seemed to me like by Newman being so alone in the world but his family, and Bethel, his mother's brother died, and things like-- [End Side B. End Session.]