Oral History Interview with Nancy Guthrie McKay

HIBBS: The following interview with Nancy Guthrie McKay by Dixie Hibbs for the Kentucky Oral History Commission, Prohibition and its Effects on Nelson County. The interview was conducted in Bardstown, Nelson County, Kentucky, at 200 block of South Third Street on September--

MCKAY: Twenty-sixth HIBBS: --twenty, twenty-sixty, 1988. Alright, Nancy, would you give us your date of birth, and where and things about your family?

MCKAY: Well, I was born in Nelson County, Early Times, which was just a little settlement with a store and a distillery and a post office on April the eleventh, 1916. And my father, of course, 1:00was associated with the distillery. He did not own it. At that time it was owned by Mrs. Shawnee, I guess Mrs., Mrs. Beam still owned part of it. Mr. Beam had died. Mr. Jack Beam, of course, was the original owner of it. And his nephew, I believe, John (Shawnee) ran the distillery. At the time that I was born, probably Mrs. Beam still had an interest in it. But maybe later, bought her out. And then it was just Mr. Shawnee. And my father had an interest at sometime. I'm not real sure about all these, you know, financial deals. But I remember it was my father's life down there. And it was really a fascinating place to grow up because we, we lived very close to the distillery. And we were running back and forth, my brothers and I, pretty regularly. And were put up with very nicely by the clerks in the distillery, in the bottling room, which today that's unbelievable to think of the crudeness of a bottling room 2:00then. Where all the things were operated by hand. The bottles came down and the girls had like glue, they put on glue. And the next group put on labels. And the moving belt of course fascinated us. And then there was a real, a pile I can remember so well-- A pile of broken glass. Bottles that were broken were all thrown at the end of the, well, the bottling room. And I guess where they filled the barrels, maybe. It wasn't that it was a warehouse where the barrels were stored, but it was a runway between that and a little house on the end, sort of a tool shed. And they had just a mountain of broken glass there. And one day the little bridge across broke and I fell in the glass, I remember. 3:00I wasn't, don't think I was cut to death, I was scared to death. But that's what I remember. Vivid recollection. And I suppose Prohibition came in before, you know, before I really remember. But the distillery still operated.

HIBBS: That's what I was wondering. Because 1920, then 1933 is the Prohibition period. And if you were born in 1916--

MCKAY: Yeah, as far as 1916. I can't, I remember, of course they were still, I suppose, allowed to continue with the operation… HIBBS: Maybe for medicinal purposes?

MCKAY: Well, you see, till '20, I'm not real sure when the distillery closed. Dad bought the, Dad bought the land there that was owned by the distillery. I mean, there was something like, I think, five or six hundred acres. And there was a cattle barn adjoining, you know, over yon, where they kept the cattle. I know now they kept the slop to it. At the time it didn't mean much to me. But I suppose that Dad must have bought that around '22 or '23. I can remember, even after Mr. Shawnee died and, 4:00I remember him, and I don't guess he died before '22. Or maybe he died around '22. But I remember him distinctly. Francene would know when he died, I doubt it. But anyway, I can remember him so well. He, he just, he was such a dear person. And we used to, I was in school, oh gosh, when I was six. That would be '22, wouldn't it?

HIBBS: Mm, hmm.

MCKAY: I guess maybe she was a widow then, though. When we were in school, John Denn and I used to trudge up to her house up on Second, uh, North Third Street to sell her chances on things at school. And she wasn't a Catholic. 5:00[laughing] She wasn't. It was such a (?), Mom used to just want to kill us every time we talked to her. And she, she lived longer. But she died before, I believe she died before we left Early Times, which was in '28.

Hibbs: Hmm.

MCKAY: And she had an interesting life. And I can remember her coming out there with some, some various people and how upset my father would be at some of the company she kept. But anyway, I remember those operations, and I remember that when they ceased was when my father had this, cases of whiskey that he had a vault built for down in the basement of our house. And it was just like a bank vault. You would walk into it and there were, you know, shelves all around it, and there was a great big steel door. And you had to have a combination to open it. And it was filled in '27. No, no, '26 or something. It was filled in '26, because that's when he had the robbery, 6:00with the so-called insurance man coming out and saying, not insurance--

HIBBS: Revenue.

MCKAY: Revenue man flashing a badge and said that he was, you know, twelve, one o'clock in the night, that he was, was sent out to see about the illegal whiskey. Which, of course, was not illegal. And that's when he gave himself away. Dad knew our insurance, uh revenue man was coming back earlier. But that was in April of '26. So by that time, the distillery was not, it was defunct.

HIBBS: Definitely.

MCKAY: I would say.

HIBBS: Do you not remember exactly when he built the vault. In other words, you know it was before '26, but you don't know whether it was '20--

MCKAY: Well, I don't know whether he built, he may have built it when we remodeled the house, which was in the early '20s. The house had belonged to Mr. Beam. Mr. Jack Beam. And his son, Ed Beam, 7:00had lived there, I guess, as a bachelor, I suppose, before he married. And when he left, he married Ms. Scholl(?) Wasn't that her name? Mrs. Beam, she has a, a Margaret, Shirley, she had two daughters. She'd been married before. Swager, Swager, Margaret Swager. Shirley. There was a man, she was married to a man, I think his last name was Shirley. Or Swaggart. I don't know which. And but he had two daughters, she had two daughters, she divorced, she had two daughters by him. And Ed Beam married her. He died before his father. So he died before (?). And by that time, they had built theis house here in Bardstown. And had moved there. Because Mother and Dad married in 1911. Nov-,October, 1911. And Dad, before that, had batched in the house and done some fixing up. And that's where he and Mother 8:00went to live. And I don't, I bet, I, they do remember the old house. The way the stairway went, and all that. So I would say it was around '20, '21, when they remodeled the house. And that may have been from them knowing that this was going to happen. So he may have, but they were still, I can, you know, vividly remember. As a matter of fact, I think when I was eight years old. When would that be?

HIBBS: '24.

MCKAY: That would be '24. I believe that the distillery was still, they were doing something in '84, '24, because 9:00I got a diamond ring on my birthday. A little chip of a diamond ring. And the man that was, I thought (?) was something. He (?) that I was so crazy about that lived there in this old house around the way. And he said at the time, "What are you getting for your birthday?"

And I said, "Well, I'd like to have a diamond ring, but my daddy says I have to wait until I'm sixteen."

And he said, "Well, we'll just talk to your daddy about that. I don't see why you can't get it when you're eight." So I can--

HIBBS: Yeah, that's impressive.

MCKAY: So that's impressive. I haven't thought about that in years. Isn't that something? But that comes up now. And so it was just a little chip in a little white gold, white gold ring. But I remember that, that he would not have been there if there hadn't been something, it seems to me, to do with whiskey. And so maybe Dad, you know, put that vault in from the very beginning. I don't remember any construction. We had a full basement. Of course, you had cold winds, you know. And I don't believe there was an inside entrance and an outside entrance. And I don't remember work going on, particularly after the house 10:00was remodeled. But all of us were born there. All four of us were literally born in the house. In fact, my brother who's, who died was born in '22 in that house. And then Mother lost him. And she always felt that if she'd been in the hospital when it happened. So then Louis and Jimmy, when they were born, she went to Louisville to the hospital to have them. So we were born in the house.

HIBBS: Well, since your family was connected with distilleries, then you, you've, you know, heard all types of stories and on the situation. And you also mentioned that you moved from Early Times in '28.

MCKAY: We moved in February of '28.

HIBBS: Okay. Was your father still involved in distilleries? Or did he… MCKAY: No. By that time, the distillery was closed. 11:00He had lost some money on the, the, well, I think he had traded, made a very bad trade, I guess. But he had been involved in a real estate deal with some partners in Louisville. I believe at that time, and this man, the apartments were all full when he bought them. And we figured later, or I heard rumors later, that there had just been people put in there. And he thought he was getting a good deal. (?) And as soon as he bought them, the deal was closed, all of a sudden the apartments were all empty. So they, there was just, Mother and Dad never talked very much in front of us. And they was never a lot gossip in the house about anything. But I think the undercurrent was that, that those people were just show people. They had just put them there to give the impression, which isn't a very honest thing to do, I guess. But they eventually (?) When we moved to (?) been torn down except for this one. We lived up on North Third Street, right next to the depot. Across, across the street 12:00from the depot, in what was called the Barber Point. We rented it.

Hibbs: Yeah.

MCKAY: And we moved there, I think, in February of '28. And we stayed there until, I don't know whether they moved out, if Mother and Dad bought (?) And it took about a year, I imagine, to renovate it. Because there was nothing, there was no water, there was no heat. The house was just in, the structural was okay. But it had to be plastered, I think. I remember the story. I was away at school. So this was what I heard, that in the, what we used as our living room, which was really, I guess, the library, with bookshelves, there were great big holes in the floor, the beautiful floor. 13:00 Ash?

HIBBS: Ash, I think it is.

MCKAY: Where they had let potatoes rot. And the trash had been there so long that they literally made places in the floor.

HIBBS: The acid from the (?) MCKAY: Yeah, I guess. Tenants had lived in it. And I think I heard, I don't know whether it's true or not, but I heard that they'd even kept sheep in the house, some of the tenants sometime. And of course the (?) whoever had lived there last, (?) I heard that they had broken up some of the furniture and some of the molding, too. (?) in the fire. So whether that, those are things that I don't know for sure. And they used to say that there was some treasure buried 14:00in, the only (?) in that dining room. I don't know whether it was supposed to be in the fireplace. There was a fireplace in the dining room.

HIBBS: Mm hmm. There's a fireplace.

MCKAY: Is it still there?

HIBBS: Mm hmm. It's on the outer wall. Here's the fireplace, it's on the other wall.

MCKAY: We never found any treasure. Then Mother and Dad bought the house and bought (?) and fixed it up. And two of my aunts came from Louisville, and they helped to run a tea room. I don't know if that's the first one in there or not. There may have been a few months when we first moved in. I don't guess they started, we moved in in the fall. They probably didn't start doing anything until spring. And then we also kept people overnight.

HIBBS: Early bed and breakfast? [laughs] MCKAY: And I can remember that for a menu 15:00they used the (?) parlor for the dining area. And we lived all over, all the back (other?) part to the right hand side. And then upstairs, it seems to me when (?) and I came home we always had a different room. I mean, they'd put us in one room for a while. And then I don't know whether Mother would rent it out or what. Maybe if more people came, more families came to stay. And then we'd be in another room. But (?) and I were both from boarding school, so we came home, they would just kind of shift us around. John and Ben, I think stayed on the third floor pretty regularly. Louis and Timmy were (?) back in that transient room above the kitchen at one time. Louis and Timmy, I guess, were upstairs. And my two aunts were up there later. And (?) But they, oh, gosh, what was I going to say?

HIBBS: Talking about the restaurant, or tea room, economically.

MCKAY: They would serve country ham, fried chicken, potato, two vegetables, 16:00a salad and a dessert. And they charged all fifty cents. And included your drink, your coffee. And I can remember Mother saying, "People in Bardstown think that's too much." And hot biscuits, or cornbread or whatever.

HIBBS: Did they have tourist traffic? Or people out of Louisville?

MCKAY: It seemed to me that they were mostly, I don't think there were too many tourists in those days. But people would drop in. They were people that, the (?) back and forth, and their families were back and forth. And we knew a lot of people that were interested. And if somebody was entertaining, they would, people from Bardstown, they would bring people out. I think they had the mayor 17:00would bring people out for any, not a convention, but there would be people, I have the book. I have one of the ledgers.

HIBBS: Oh, I'd like to see that.

MCKAY: I have one of the ledgers at home. I don't know why anybody would want it. You can have it, and put it wherever you want with it. But it's right in here. I'll get it. It has some really outstanding names in it.

HIBBS: Good.

MCKAY: (Cathy Chandler?), and (?) I can remember meeting those people. And then we had a lot of family in Louisville. We had friends. It seems to me that everybody, of course we had a lot of whiskey, too, around. Every Sunday of the world, we had maybe some of those people (?) but I can remember a lot of them sitting down around the table.

HIBBS: That weren't paying a cover.

MCKAY: That weren't paying. They'd have a few drinks. (Charlie Wood Brown?) (?) family. Charlie Elliott, whose 18:00sister was married to Mother's uncle. And some of that (?) would come. If anybody was visiting, you know, they all love to come out. And of course we had (?) we had a cook, I don't remember all the cooks that came and went. At the back of the house there was a room (?) room back there behind the kitchen.

HIBBS: There's a couple, I think. Aren't there two rooms? Or just one room back there?

MCKAY: There's one of them (?) HIBBS: That porch, on the side?

MCKAY: Mother put that porch. Having closed porches, I suppose it was like the (?) house. With the whole, with the (brand?) all the way down. And Mother removed that (brand??? ) property. And she enclosed the kitchen and all that. And the big refrigerator. I don't see how she ran a tea room. We would come home 19:00and there was chicken salad made, and there were, of course, people would have luncheons down there. Chicken salad and country ham. There was milk in a great big crock. And I can remember dining in, and I would go out there and we'd just see what there was. And just enjoy thoroughly. I was away at school, and I'd come home during the summertime. Mother used to say, "You know, we're not fixing this for you."

HIBBS: The family ate up the profits, huh? The family and the visitors ate up the profits.

MCKAY: The family would be eating up a lot. I don't guess they did that more than a couple of--

HIBBS: I was wondering how long. I guess the ledger would tell you how long.

MCKAY: I know more than two years, because there dissention in the family. And my father, oh, we were talking about when he came to town. He came to town, he worked at, in the Farmers' Bank, I think he was the cashier at the Farmers' Bank. What other, of course he still was going to (?) he was still playing poker, I'm sure, and all these other things. Maybe supplemented 20:00his income. The races didn't, I'm sure. But gambling might have. But he was making a hundred and twenty-five dollars a month, I believe, at that time. This is in '28, '29, '30, maybe. Into the '30s. And he had me in boarding school, (?) was at Notre Dame, or at St. Mary's, Kansas. John and Ben were down at St. Joe's. Or (?) We were all in private schools. And we ate well. I don't ever remember being hungry. I do remember that maybe my mother could spend a little money on clothes. I remember one time Dad coming home from the races, he'd gone, she didn't want him to go, he flew up.

HIBBS: Flew? In '28 and '30?

MCKAY: Yeah! Up to (?), oh, heavens, she was scared to death. She didn't want him to go. 21:00And he came back, and he had presents for everybody. And she said well, you must have had a good time, had a good day. And she was very cold, that whole thing. And he said no, as a matter of fact he didn't, he had lost money. But he just decided he'd go out and buy everybody (?) (?) of value. He didn't have (?) it was very, very different. (?) family. And the next day I can remember she went to Louisville and she came back and she had a new coat. I don't know if she'd had a coat for a couple of years. And she, and I never will forget, (?) money. Ordinarily, they didn't talk about it. But I just said, "How in the world are you going to pay for all this?"

And she said, "I don't know, and I don't give a damn." I'll never forget that! First time I think I ever heard my mother say "damn" in all her life. And apparently it was all right. I mean, it was paid for. But that was, 22:00I just wonder how in the world did he manage. He may have had some stocks. He may have had some dividends. He may have borrowed money. I don't know. But it seemed to me like a very measly amount to raise six of us on.

HIBBS: Well, you know when we started out about the Prohibition, and as a distiller, he could, he was liable to save so much whiskey for his own personal use. And since Prohibition went on for thirteen years, did they ever run out of whiskey?

MCKAY: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. In fact, well he just would get good bootleg whiskey (?) upstairs he had a safe, from the safe upstairs. And he had, I can't remember what the thing was. 23:00It was a thing that he could pour the, it's like a decanter. I guess it was upside down. It was kind of like a water bottle. And you could push it. Like a garden hose.

HIBBS: Oh, yeah. Like a siphon.

MCKAY: A siphon. And I think this was when they were still running the tea room. I wasn't home at the time, but (Jenny?) or Ben probably would remember more about it. But I heard the story that he went up there and got some liquor out and forgot, or didn't (seal?) or it got (stuck?) let the stuff run out. And it ran for an hour before anybody discovered it. And the whole place was filled with fumes of liquor. And the floor was saturated. And maybe it dripped down. I don't know. But there is a story. And I would hear about and (?) telling that story over and over.

HIBBS: He didn't like learning about (?) MCKAY: He didn't care (?) No, we always had liquor. Always. I never remember, in our house, my father had a drink every night. I don't remember (?) ever drinking except night, except on Sundays, when people come n the 24:00afternoons. And he drank it straight. And he'd shudder. And I'd think, what does he do it for? If it make you feel like, but he thought it would heal anything. Now headaches, he wasn't real sure about. I don't think he'd recommend it for headaches. But from toe hurting you to elbow or shoulder, and we were all just kind of (?) drank (?) and one time he come around, he was giving us all a drink, draining all the glasses that were left after lunch, I mean, after (?) around on Sunday. And I remember he came to the table and Mother said, "What's the matter with him?" And somebody said, "I think he's drinking. He just drained the--"

HIBBS: Drained all of the cocktail glasses, huh?

MCKAY: Glasses that were sitting around. And I don't think he ever did that again.

HIBBS: Since your father, I'm trying to go back here in time 25:00with him. Not being able to work in a distillery, and coming to town. And then he got a job as a cashier at the bank. And then--

MCKAY: And then later, I guess he stayed at the bank the whole time we were in town. By the time we moved to Wickland, I believe it was when we moved to Wickland, he became a trustee, an insurance company, what do I want to call it ? Kentucky Home Life Insurance went into receivership.

HIBBS: Okay.

MCKAY: At this period, Dan Talbot must have been up at Frankfort. I'm not real sure about these dates at all. But as I say, I'm away at school, so I'm not getting in on the ground floor of all this. But they tried to get someone to oversee the receivership 26:00in this rebuilding of, I think it's Kentucky Home Life. And they had (?) and somebody in the group was not agreeable. And finally Dan said, (?). And so everybody agreed that Dan could be a good person to handle it. So when we were living in Wickland, he was driving to Louisville down on Fifth Street every day. And that's the old 41E. And I think he made it downtown in forty-five minutes. That's (?idea of how my?) my dad drove.

HIBBS: Yes. [laughs] MCKAY: And he went every morning, and he came back. And I can remember his leaving at Wickland. Now maybe he got that job before we left. Left the (barber?) place, but I don't think so.

HIBBS: He 27:00called himself Louis Guthrie. But his name actually was Searles Louis Guthrie. And sometimes you see it written S.L. Guthrie.

MCKAY: Yeah. That's the way he signed it. S.L. Guthrie.

HIBBS: So I wanted to be clear on that.

MCKAY: And Searles is S-e-a-r-l-e-s. I found out my brother Louis, who's named for him, had never spelled it correctly. He spelled it S-e-r-l-s. He didn't know. But he said, "I don't think Daddy knew how to spell it." And I said, "Well, it's both of you (?)."

HIBBS: Well, let's see. We talked a little bit about the travel. You know, here you're having a tea room there, but you also served liquor illegally, I guess.

MCKAY: Well, I don't believe we served--

HIBBS: You don't think it was served (?) MCKAY: Oh, no, it wasn't served to the people. Mother, they didn't do that. This was family and friends that were gathered on Sunday afternoon. Maybe some of them came into the living room and they had a highball, then they went off to dinner. But that was not, they did not charge for that, I'm sure. There was no charge at all. And they were friends. Dr. Irving Able was a friend of the family. For he was friends with them (?) Early Times, because he used to come out and go hunting. 28:00And I can remember always that there were parties out there, that they had drinks, always. It was just something that I never remember being (?) HIBBS: Without them. And then you said later, when you know the whiskey ran out, did everyone know bootleggers they could get it from? Or did you trust moonshiners? Or were they getting the whiskey from the warehouses, do you think? Or were they actually getting real moonshine.

MCKAY: Oh, I don't really know. I think (? home brew?) HIBBS: Really?

MCKAY: Didn't you know that?

HIBBS: No. No. No.

MCKAY: (?) home brew? Oh, boy! I'll tell you, she could make home brew that (?) HIBBS: What do you call home brew?

MCKAY: Well, we kind of form a beer, I guess. She made it in her bathtub, literally in her bathtub 29:00when they lived up-- you've never heard that story?

HIBBS: No. Well (?), the image she has to me is this nice little old lady of seventy or eighty. And I have trouble putting her stirring up a batch of bathtub home brew.

MCKAY: Oh, she did! They lived up there where (?) HIBBS: Okay.

MCKAY: We called it the--

HIBBS: We call it now the (Adam Ankeny?) house. (?) MCKAY: They had an apartment, Uncle (?) and Aunt (?) had an apartment up there. Mrs. (Burma's? ) house. Mrs. Burma lived downstairs, and Mr. Burma. And I think he died while He had (Vern?) still there. And they had an upstairs apartment. They had a great big living room, a bedroom -- I can still see her sitting there at the dressing table curling her hair -- a little kitchen off to one side. I guess he ate, I guess there was room in the kitchen 30:00to eat for just a few of us, the three of us, and a bathroom. And Aunt (?) made home brew that was out of this world.

HIBBS: Okay. Let me stop a minute. [End Side A. Begin Side B.] MCKAY: Well, I'm amazed at some of the (?) HIBBS: We are, we had to stop and turn our tape over. But we are talking about (Aunt B.S.?), who was Beatrice Hearst--

MCKAY: Rodman HIBBS: Beatrice Rodman Hearst MCKAY: Hearst.

HIBBS: Right. Beatrice Rodman Hearst.

MCKAY: Wife of (Vernard Hearst?) HIBBS: And they were contemporaries.

MCKAY: They were my godparents. Mother and father's friends. The best of friends.

HIBBS: Now didn't she work in a distillery, too? Or was that later?

MCKAY: She worked at Fairfield Distillery. Yeah. That's later. This is, I'm talking about during the Depression.

HIBBS: During the Depression.

MCKAY: And Prohibition and Depression HIBBS: And Prohibition and Depression.

MCKAY: They have (?), I don't know if you've ever been in that up there where they distill the 31:00(?) HIBBS: Yeah. You go up--

MCKAY: She went up and (crooked ?) stairs, I remember that vividly. Not very wide. And Aunt (BF?) would have her (?), she would entertain her friends. They played bridge an awful lot. And I can remember going up there and she (?) she gave us some, and we kept it. She must have given us a dozen bottles or more. I don't know where she got it, who furnished her with the bottles. Furnished bottles.

HIBBS: Furnished bottles, all right.

MCKAY: And they had them stored in Wickland. We were still living in Wickland. And they had them stored at Wickland. And one night, and I don't remember whether it was summertime or wintertime, we heard a pop. And the next thing, we heard another pop. And we went out, and these bottles, the corks had popped out, one after another. And home brew was running all over (?) But up there, she served home brew. Now I never saw it in the bathtub, I don't think. But she made 32:00it with yeast, and whatever the ingredients are. Whatever the ingredients are for home brew, and I guess it had to be stirred. And I guess they went someplace else to bathe. How long it took to--

HIBBS: That's what I was going to ask. [laughs] MCKAY: I don't know how you make home brew. But it must have been 100 proof or better. And I can remember (Newman?) and I, it must have been in the summertime, Newman and I went up to pick up Mother. And these ladies were having more fun. My mother didn't touch whiskey for years. I don't think Mother ever had a drink of whiskey until maybe (?) after my mother, maybe after (Julie?) died. (Julie?) didn't die, no, Julie didn't die till '41. So (?) first time my mother ever had a highball. She didn't drink very much. She didn't like it. But she would drink home brew, and she'd drink champagne. And 33:00we went up to get Mother, and there were these four or five ladies up there, and they were having the best time. (Ann Marie Cisco? BS?), Mother, Nanny. Maybe Grace. I don't know who all they were. And they came down the stairs just giggling like kids. And I said, "Newman, what in the world?" And he says, "They've been into the home brew."

HIBBS: Home brew. [laughter] MCKAY: Oh, it was so good, and it was so cold. But it was really good. (?) HIBBS: You're saying it's like a beer, but it's higher in alcohol content.

MCKAY: Oh, yes! Hers was higher, hers was the highest. I can remember Dad saying, "Oh, my goodness!"

HIBBS: I wonder if she has a recipe book still around or something.

MCKAY: I wonder. I can't imagine that Arch or some of them haven't said anything to you.

HIBBS: Well, that's not been a question I've asked.

MCKAY: Nobody's ever come up with it.

HIBBS: I'll have to go over and record his (?) MCKAY: (?) 34:00She must have had a recipe for it. But that was how it either got hot, I guess it got hot.

HIBBS: That's what made it (gas?) MCKAY: But she used yeast, I'm sure. And I guess malt. Oh, it was real dark. I mean, not dark like stout is dark, or that Guinness beer, that you buy from Ireland. But it was a real dark golden color. It was beautiful. And it was good. But that, so you're asking when did they do, I don't remember that they had had white moonshine. It seemed to me it was always a color.

HIBBS: Amber or brown? Well then, maybe he was getting it in from (?) people who were getting it out of barrels. I mean, they--

MCKAY: Or he might have been buying medicinal stuff. 35:00You know, you could do that, if you knew the right people.

HIBBS: Well, I was wondering. Did you ever see anybody that had a prescription for medicinal whiskey? Legally, you had had a prescription, go to the drugstore and get your--

MCKAY: I never even, I ever don't remember (?) we'd talk about it, I guess. And I don't know what (?) did. I know (?) I drink home brew. People that, I'll tell you somebody else, there's a little town over, a little place over in Newhaven. (Sonny Ray?), who works for, Sonny, is that his name? That's not his name. Leon Ray! That worked for the (?) and he, gosh (?) He (?) and he made home brew. He made, you'd go down there and get some beer.

HIBBS: Do you think when these people were making, not necessarily Aunt BF, but different ones who were making home brew, did they 36:00supply it to like restaurants or saloons?

MCKAY: Oh, no. Of course, saloons were not (?) [both talking] HIBBS: Okay. They closed all the saloons.

MCKAY: No, you couldn't go in a restaurant and get this. I mean, this little place over in New Haven, I think it was, I want to say it was a quarter a bottle or something. You just went into these people's kitchen. They must have a kitchen. They had an oilcloth tablecloth on the table. You had to know them. Leon Ray worked for the (?), so (?) friend. I don't really remember going, I never went by myself. You just went into (?) and you just knocked on the door and they opened the door said, "Oh, hello, won't you come in." And then they'd set you down and they'd (?) out this beer. Home brew. And I remember drinking moonshine out of a bottle with (Archie?) and (Shaun McGuiness?) and some of the (Moore?) boys.

HIBBS: This was during the '30s?

MCKAY: This was during the '30s.

HIBBS: After Prohibition?

MCKAY: Oh, no. It was before Prohibition.

HIBBS: I mean, before it was over.

MCKAY: Yes.

HIBBS: '33 MCKAY: See, I (?) '34.

HIBBS: Yeah, it had to be.

MCKAY: Had to be before that. I can remember having a bottle of whiskey, white lightning. 37:00HIBBS: Was this a (raisin?) jar?

MCKAY: Drinking it out of there.

HIBBS: What about the, something was said sometime about the Lincoln boyhood cabin.

MCKAY: Yeah.

HIBBS: Wasn't that a place of entertainment or something?

MCKAY: That was a place where you, well that was --

HIBBS: Boyhood home, it's not a cabin.

MCKAY: Well not over at (Hobbeysville?). It's (?) here.

HIBBS: It's on the other side of New Haven, between (Actionville?) and (Hodgesville?). (Knob?) Creek, it's on Knob Creek.

MCKAY: And that was a place, and I can remember going over there one night with Arch and I and John.

HIBBS: Your brother John?

MCKAY: My brother John. And I don't know whether Julie was with me. Now this was all before '34. Before the September of '34. Now when it was, it might have been that summer, it might have been before that. I don't know about the date. And I think he was with Julie. And we all went over there. 38:00And you took (?) and you had a bottle, we had drinks. I guess we, under the table (?) And I can remember, oh, it was a rough crowd was there, and I wasn't real happy about the whole situation. And this man came over to our table and he said, "I want my (?)." And I was indignant. I said, "What are you talking about?" "Somebody at this table got my (?)." Well, I didn't, there was a dance floor, you know, we danced. And Arch was sitting there, he didn't say anything. And I was just infuriated that he would accuse any of us of doing it. And we go out and get in the car eventually. And 39:00I'm still raising Cain about this man. And Arch turned to me and he said, "Well of course you know John has it." And I said, "No, I don't know John has it!" And I turned around and I said, "Have you got that man's (?)." He said, "Yeah, I've got that man's (?)." I can remember how intricately carved it was. It must have been wood with a place (?) down in it. (?) And I said, "Well, you take that back! That's stealing." And John says, "Well, I'm not going to take that back. You're crazy." And I remember how Arch was sitting there, not saying a word. And all the time, he knew he had it.

HIBBS: He knew that you were standing up for something that wasn't so.

MCKAY: Well, yeah! And I guess he thought that I really knew that John had it, I guess he figured that I knew it. And I don't think John took it back. I remember how, oh, I just thought that was stealing! The worst thing in the world. And what the circumstances were, with John gotten it, I don't know. I don't think he just walked over and stole it. But anyhow, I don't think he gave it back. And I can remember seeing how intricately carved it was. And I said, "Well, that looks like a real nice thing." You know, (?) but I don't think I (?) 40:00And I don't think Arch or that girl, it must have been Julie, that they said anything. They didn't back me up (?) take it back.

HIBBS: Back to Prohibition, a little bit about, of course they closed the distilleries and the workers who worked the distilleries had to find other jobs. Do you know of any--

MCKAY: Well, a lot of them, a lot of the men that worked the distilleries stayed on at the farm. There was, well, there was Albert Scott, and--

HIBBS: They worked the farm, like farming and animals or whatever.

MCKAY: They had, they still had stock. They still had cattle. And he had some horses. I don't remember what he did with the horses. I'm real vague about all of that. You know, you're just kind of carefree, and I don't remember too much about 41:00what he had and who the people were. Now some of them went to work for me and Mindy and Josh worked for Mr. Shawnee and Mrs. Shawnee kept (?) and Jody kept (?) HIBBS: Working the house, or working--

MCKAY: Mainly working the house. And Josh was just a handyman, I guess. I don't think they lived there. They must have lived, Jody must have take them back and forth to, (?) at Early Times. That's where they come from (?) And Mr. (Bride?) was a good carpenter, and I guess he just got (?), you know, they were still there. The Smiths left. The Smiths ran a store, Jack Smith family. And they ran a store and they came to town and then he started a store near town after the distillery closed. Of course the post office was gone. All that community was broken up. There were Jameses. There were Tuckers. I don't know. 42:00I think some of them, I don't know, they just looked at the little pieces of (?) HIBBS: Did the best they could.

MCKAY: Did the best they could. Mary Shane, I remember he did (?) came to town, he was not educated at all, but he was just a born mechanic. A genius, I think.

HIBBS: One time I asked you about a factory, a level factory that supposedly your father and other partners had started. There was an inventor who invented this particular type of level. I got this from a newspaper article. But you didn't remember a lot about it. I didn't know if you had thought any more about it.

MCKAY: What's a level?

HIBBS: A level is a carpenter's tool--

MCKAY: That's what I thought.

HIBBS: And there was some type of a new type of level. Self adjusting or self leveling.

MCKAY: Well there wasn't here 43:00in Bardstown.

HIBBS: In Bardstown.

MCKAY: The Bardstown factory? Now the only factory I remember Dad being associated with was the candy factory.

HIBBS: The candy.

MCKAY: And that was when we lived up at the barber place. So that was between '28 and '30.

HIBBS: Did they ever get that off the ground? The candy--

MCKAY: It operated one summer. I think probably they lost money on it. I think people were stealing from them. I think that was (?) I don't know. Evidently this (?) thing was (?) they go back and remember again (?) Dad came home from Louisville and he was raising Cain. He had (paid these fines?) going to Louisville. And it said (?) and he came back and he was furious. What has Will gotten into again? So he called him up and he said, "What have you gotten me into? An advertising 44:00business? And you didn't say a word to me about an advertising business." And he ran it, I guess for a few minutes, and finally Bill says, "You think you're the only Guthrie in the whole world?" And he (?) partners with a Guthrie up in Washington. But I can remember, so evidently, a lot of things that Dad was in, he was in with Will.

HIBBS: With Will.

MCKAY: And not always knowing all about it. I know they sponsored Jody down at the, that was another thing after Prohibition came in. Jody was sent, Jody (?) was sent to Florida for a beer concession. Whether they were making beer, they must have bought a plant down there. So this was right after Prohibition--

HIBBS: Was over?

MCKAY: Was over.

HIBBS: '34, '35? In that period?

MCKAY: It must have been that period. And they sent Jody down to take charge. What in the world were they thinking about, I don't know. But they 45:00had run across (?) on their trip every year, see Mother (?) went to Florida. And then go (?) They, I'm not sure, I think that they may have, but I'm not sure about that. Ben would know more about it.

HIBBS: We'll have to talk to Ben.

MCKAY: And I know Jody didn't do anything. I mean, he just flew back and forth and (turned his planes?). And that plan, Will and Nanny took it, Will took it (?) HIBBS: (?) MCKAY: And practically all the furniture in it. And Dad hadn't as much invested as Will, of course, because he didn't have as much. We got an oriental rug. Oh, gosh, I've forgotten what we did with it. An oriental rug (?) dining room.

HIBBS: Whatever Jody was supposed to do as part of the partnership, he didn't. So therefore they--

MCKAY: He went broke. They just appropriated his things. And that's when Jody, 46:00I guess that's when Jody and (Cathy?) broke up. And he went to Chicago. He went someplace else. Nobody ever did (?) chef in a restaurant or something. Now that I can remember vividly, when Jody owned a house. Because I can remember going up there at intermission parties at dances. Well I was going to dances, but it's all before '34.

HIBBS: Okay. What about, talking about the Chicago thing, did you know of any connection, in a big city, Chicago or Kansas City or St. Louis or Indianapolis, Cincinnati, anybody that came down here to deal in whiskey or to buy whiskey?

MCKAY: Well, I know that there were people. (?) Now you're talking after Prohibition or before?

HIBBS: During. During Prohibition.

MCKAY: No, I don't know anything about that. (?) some of these people. John-- [pause] HIBBS: Talking about the Chicago, or our big city 47:00people coming in, you said that you really didn't remember anybody actually coming and buying whiskey.

MCKAY: Not during Prohibition. No, Dad wasn't selling whiskey. He was not at that time. We had it in the house, but he didn't sell it at any time that I know of, between the distilleries. I had no, somebody sold it, but there were moonshiners. They made whiskey, they found out, Will said there was a still at Wickland. Of course you've heard that.

HIBBS: I've heard it, but I didn't know if it was really true or not.

MCKAY: I'll tell you who you could get to talk about these things. Laverne (Corgan?). Her father was in on that.

HIBBS: Oh, okay. I'll see what I can--

MCKAY: (?) was in on it. She was telling me all about it. (?) or not, but they made whiskey. And then when Dad, they found the still down in the basement when they bought it. 48:00And Dad said, "Well, (?)." Because Dad didn't know, apparently, until they bought it. "(?) didn't know a thing about it." (?) didn't know a thing about it.

HIBBS: [laughs] As astute as he was, he didn't know anything about the still in the basement. Okay. What you're saying there is that happened before you turned it into a tea room. This was during Prohibition.

MCKAY: This was when Mother and Dad (?), yeah. Well you see, until the Prohibition, and then when Prohibition was repealed, and Dad got enough money together, I guess he sold the place in '35. That's the reason there's a (?) in '35 mark. It may be '33. But they sold the place by '35. And by this time, I'm (in the convent?). And they moved, they moved on August the fourth.

HIBBS: Well, this ledger goes to June twenty-eighth of '35.

MCKAY: Well, maybe they-- (?) [pause] See, 49:00Bill, (?) and Mary, and what's the girl's name?

HIBBS: (?) MCKAY: No.

HIBBS: Annie?

MCKAY: No.

HIBBS: Sorry.

MCKAY: What is, (?) and the (?) it's not Bill's daughter. Married our first husband. Well they lived there. They lived there, they came (?) The Newmans lived there.

HIBBS: After that, the other--

MCKAY: Charlie Newman and Jane. I don't know where their names are, but they lived there, they were living there. (?) living there when I was still home. But I cannot believe that Mother was running that (?) so long.

HIBBS: Well, this hotel register, these people couldn't all live, they couldn't all live in there, I mean, they couldn't all have been staying there, because they've got the same dates and a bunch--

MCKAY: Well I think some of those are town kids. Maybe 50:00there for a party. We used to have a lot of parties.

HIBBS: I see some of that. (?) MCKAY: (?) HIBBS: Lots of people there.

MCKAY: I don't understand that register. And I think maybe it was just sitting around. But I've (?) that long, because I can remember big parties that we had in those (?) rooms. Newman would come home and I would come home and we'd have every vacation, I just don't remember. I can't believe I was that far (?) and (Ollie and Evelyn?) had already gone back 51:00to town, to Louisville. They were living in Louisville when the flood came.

HIBBS: '37?

MCKAY: 1937. Mother and Dad moved from Wickland to Louisville in August of '36. They stayed one year in Louisville. And he started his (?) down there. And while they were getting together and building this distillery out here, it was a whole year that they were there. They went on August the fourth and they came back on August the fourth. It was Louis' birthday.

HIBBS: Okay.

MCKAY: (?) I remember. All the times, come back. And (?) I guess it was '36, '37.

HIBBS: So they both picked up after Prohibition was over. Then the economy would pick up, 52:00you had people getting back in the whiskey business. Of course theoretically, if you thought about it, when they went back to the distilleries and warehouses, they should have been full of whiskey. And they could have just started shipping that whiskey that was there. But in reality, was there any whiskey in the warehouses?

MCKAY: Well, they started making whiskey, of course, and (?) he had two or three different labels. Now his label was Pride of Nelson. Now whether he had some other label, now Jimmy, Jimmy (?) Jimmy could tell you more about the distillery operation than I can. And the beginning. (?) built the warehouses, I know, because that story has been told. It was at that time he had moved to Bardstown, I guess. I don't know whether the family moved or not. He and Dad had become friends and he was selling heavy machinery for some heavy machinery company in Louisville. (?) 53:00But anyway, Dad said to him one day, "Cliff, why don't you build me some warehouses?" And Cliff said, "I don't know anything about building warehouses." And Dad said, "Anybody can build warehouses. I could build a warehouse if I had time." And Cliff thought that there lumber for sale, a lumber lot for sale. Not (?), but--

HIBBS: Did I tell you that that man came, when we had open house at home, that he came with his wife that had lived at the house.

MCKAY: That had lived at the house.

HIBBS: He had owned the lumber yard or something.

MCKAY: He is the one that owned the lumber yard!

HIBBS: Either owned it or his father-in-law owned it or something. There was some connection there. And he sold it to (?) that's what's all coming back.

MCKAY: That's right!

HIBBS: He walked in out of the blue.

MCKAY: Yeah, cause see, I was leaving. He drove up in that camper, or whatever.

HIBBS: It was a van and two or three cars.

MCKAY: A van. And he (?) and he 54:00was asking about. And he had lived at that house. Upstairs of that house. Well, Cliff bought the lumber yard and he proceeded to build--

HIBBS: The warehouses.

MCKAY: The warehouses. And that's when he got into the lumber business.

HIBBS: You know something we forgot to go over again. I know you've told the story before (?) the vault, the robbery at Early Times. We didn't go into that. And we really need to get this on this tape. The robbery took place in '26, in 1926.

MCKAY: In April, I think of '27. I'm not sure. And that night Mother and Dad had-- [somebody comes in, they greet each other] And they had Sam and (?) and Will and Nanny had been out (?) And I guess they were sitting around visiting, because there were too many of them to play cards. And 55:00they left about twelve o'clock. And boy, we didn't have keys. And the front door was just like my front door is. Half of it is glass. There were no keys to the house. We used to go away and close the doors, and (?) nothing was ever locked up. Wouldn't that be wonderful it if was like that now?

HIBBS: Now.

MCKAY: But of course it wasn't so wonderful then, because people would come into the house he didn't know about. And they had (?) Will and Nanny, they hadn't had a chance to get very far. And there was a knock at the door. And Dad just went to the door thinking that it was them coming back. Something had happened. And here were these men standing at the front door. And they, one of them flashed a badge and said, "I'm a revenue agent and I want to search your house." And Dad slammed the door in his face. And as he did, the man pulled out a pistol. And our house was shaped, 56:00you've seen pictures of our house at Early Times, if you remember. It had an L-shaped porch on it. And right there on the left side was Mother's room. And there's a window right there. Mother and the baby can (?) baby room there. And here was this door, half of it-- there was no point in not opening it. And the man says, "Open it." And he did. We were upstairs asleep. And he led Dad, or one of the men in the group, I think there were three of them (?) , led Dad to the inside entrance of the basement and turned on the light, which was kind of in an out of the way place. You had to put your hand back like the little switch.

HIBBS: Evident he'd been there before.

MCKAY: Somebody had been there before. As a matter of fact, there was a man by the name of Paul from Fairfield who had cased the joint. He said Mother had awakened on several occasions previously 57:00thinking there was somebody in the house. We had a swinging door between the kitchen and the breakfast room. And she got up one night and walked all the way through and finally went out to the house in the back where (a couple?) stayed, and asked him if he had been in the house (?), if he had been in the house. And he said no. So he even came let himself in the house at times when we were there. But anyhow, we had a back entrance to the basement, outdoor. And they had a great big truck, and they drove it up, and they made Dad open the vault. And he came on back upstairs and they had a man, they got Mother up. And Mother and Dad sat in the living room with Vernon. I don't know what his first name was, his (first?) name was Vernon. He was a man from Chicago. He was college educated, I think. They had really quite a conversation. And he guarded them. 58:00And told them, told Mother and Dad to take their jewelry off and put it away. That he didn't want it, but some of the others might. And so he guarded them. And Mother, I know Dad told later how scared he was because Mother was so furious that she was just being as nasty as could be to him. She tried to get up to go to the bathroom, she was going to climb out the bathroom window. (?) And he followed her. So she couldn't do that. So anyway, the lights were still on down at the gate. We had to walk all around the house, around this yard. And the great big gate, great big lights (?) and they were still on. And so he, the truck drove off, he heard it and (?) So he asked her to turn on the lights and he said (?) children were 59:00(?) Oh, she was so mad. And Dad said (he thought he was going to hit her?). But he didn't. And (?) And he went on out. And after he left, after they all left, Dad got Newman up. And Newman went across to (?), I mentioned him before. They had three cars, I think. And they had done something to all the cars so they couldn't start. And Newman went over and got Henry (Chain?) and got Dad and we came into town and got (?) Mr. (Burma?) and (?) sheriff and deputy. And Dad always said if it hadn't been for them that they'd never found them, they'd never caught (?) got their whiskey back. The police in Louisville was in cahoots with them.

HIBBS: Oh, okay.

MCKAY: The would find out that the whiskey was someplace. And they'd get there and (?) It was finally found on the (Ballard?) farm 60:00in Jefferson County. They had dug it and, you know, buried it. They got a lot of it back. Because they didn't (?) HIBBS: So you're saying lots and lots of cases. The first time I heard it, I was thinking maybe ten or twelve bottles or something. But you're saying there were cases and cases.

MCKAY: Oh, no. There were cases. There were, I think they got about 150 cases. [End Side B. End Session.] 1