Oral History Interview with J.R. Montgomery, Jr.

[Begin Interview] Nally: The following is an interview with J.R. Montgomery, Jr., Flaget Nally for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. The name of our project is Prohibition in Nelson County: Its Causes and Effects. The period between 1920 and 1933. This interview is conducted in Springfield, Kentucky, Washington County, on Main Street, at Simms and Montgomery Insurance and Real Estate Agency. On Aril the twenty-sixth, 1989. Mr. Montgomery, would you give me first your date of birth?

Montgomery: My date of birth is April the eighteenth, 1909. 1:00Nally: And your place of birth.

Montgomery: Place of birth is Washington County, Kentucky.

Nally: Your parents' names?

Montgomery: My parents' names were James R. Montgomery and Mary Elizabeth Montgomery. Mary Elizabeth (Oday?) Montgomery.

Nally: Your educational background. From high school.

Montgomery: From high school? Graduated from Springfield, Washington County High School in 1928. Went to University of Dayton, Dayton, Ohio, for the years of '28-'29, '29 and '30. Left there in '30 and went to the University of Kentucky in '30-'31, and '31-'32. Graduated in 1932.

Nally: Then can you tell me when did you marry and the name of your spouse, please?

Montgomery: I married October the fifth, 1933 to Sara (Woppin Ruble?) of (Leadman?), Kentucky. 2:00Nally: And you had five children, I understand.

Montgomery: Five children we have.

Nally: Can you give me their names, please?

Montgomery: The oldest one is (Flash A?) Montgomery Nally. Living in Bardstown, Kentucky. Second is Sally (Woppin?) Clarke, C-l-a-r-k-e, living in Harrisburg, Kentucky. They third is James Richard III, living in New York City, New York. The fourth is Heff Ruble Montgomery, living in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The fifth is Thomas Alexander, living in Carrollton, Georgia, near Atlanta.

Nally: That's a pretty good review of your background. Thank you so much for that.

Montgomery: Yes.

Nally: Well, when you, when Prohibition began in 1920, 3:00you were eleven years old.

Montgomery: That's right.

Nally: And so you were a preteen.

Montgomery: That's right.

Nally: What memories do you have as an eleven year old about Prohibition and the effects it had on your life?

Montgomery: Well, my memory was that there was no legal whiskey at that time. And the only type of alcohol or intoxicating drink was what was made, what could be called the black market by moonshiners and bootleggers. And I remember that from age eleven on up.

Nally: You heard conversation about it in your household.

Montgomery: Oh, yes. It was conversation in the house as well as on the street.

Nally: So it affected everybody, even young people. 4:00Well how was your father, in business, how did it affect him?

Montgomery: Well, my father was not a drinker. However, he did like his little toddy, as they called it at that time. And I think that he would keep some moonshine in a small quantity on hand for when he wanted a drink, or if he had company, he could offer them a little toddy or a little alcoholic drink of some nature.

Nally: Well where did he obtain this moonshine? Do you have any recollection of how that worked?

Montgomery: Being eleven years old, I didn't ask him where he got it. I have very little idea. But I think it came mostly from down around the Mackville section.

Nally: Of Washington County.

Montgomery: Of Washington County.

Nally: So this, tell me about the climate in Washington County. 5:00Was it wet at the time of Prohibition? Were there distilleries in Washington County?

Montgomery: There had been distilleries, according to reports, in Washington County. But that was many years before I was born.

Nally: So actually, the big production of whiskey and bourbon came from Nelson County, the adjoining county.

Montgomery: Nelson and Marion.

Nally: So when you went to buy your legal whiskey, the people would have to go to Nelson County to get it?

Montgomery: Well, we usually bought it at places like the drugstore or them dispensaries.

Nally: Is this during Prohibition you're speaking of? You would get it as a medicinal?

Montgomery: No, no. This was after Prohibition.

Nally: After Prohibition.

Montgomery: After Prohibition. (?) wanted to get any kind of an alcoholic drink, we had to buy from a bootlegger or moonshiner.

Nally: And there were plenty of those on hand?

Montgomery: Oh, yes.

Nally: Were they spread all throughout this county as well as Nelson County 6:00and everywhere? Did everybody know where these people were?

Montgomery: Everybody didn't know. But those that wanted some knew where they were. And weren't much trouble to get. If any trouble.

Nally: Well can you tell me some of the people that were in this illegal operation in Washington County? Do you remember them?

Montgomery: Yes. Yes. I remember Mr. Charlie (Keen?), who lived only about two and a half miles west of Springfield, on the Bardstown Road. I remember Mr. Arthur Watson, who lived at Fredericktown, near Manton. I remember him quite distinctly. And bought several pints from him. And several more such as that. Mr. Alex Thompson, 7:00who lived where (Everett Mudd?) did live.

Nally: In Fredericksburg?

Montgomery: Between Fredericksburg and Springfield. And a number more that I can't recall.

Nally: Well, did you feel like you could trust these people to make good whiskey?

Montgomery: Well, none of it was good.

Nally: But it wouldn't kill you.

Montgomery: It was sugar whiskey. It was made with sugar. Maybe on top of the stove. Or maybe they had a still. But it was made out of just sugar and colored with burnt peaches or some substitute.

Nally: What type of proof would it be?

Montgomery: Well, it varied. The proof probably would be anywhere from 90 to 110. 8:00I'm sure it wasn't tested for proof.

Nally: How was the quality?

Montgomery: Well, it would burn your stomach. It would burn your mouth. But it would give you a sensation.

Nally: Well, what would you pay for this pint? Would you buy it by the pint, generally? Or would it be dispensed in fifths?

Montgomery: No, no, no. It was never anything but pints.

Nally: And what would you pay for that pint?

Montgomery: Possibly two dollars. Something around two dollars. Two dollars then was a good deal of money.

Nally: Yes. Well what feeling did you have about these people that dispensed this illegal whiskey? Did you look down on them? Or did you have a feeling that they were just doing a service? What was the attitude of people toward moonshiners?

Montgomery: This was in the Depression time. And most of them were good, law abiding citizens. 9:00They were just trying to take care of large families and had no other means of income. They just couldn't make it from the farms. They couldn't make it. They had no unemployment. This was Depression days, back before Hoover time. And nobody criticized them that we heard as being criminals or doing any kind of work of injustice or should be handled by the law.

Nally: So they were law abiding citizens as far as everyone was concerned.

Montgomery: That's right. And good citizens, would pay their bills.

Nally: Churchgoing people.

Montgomery: Churchgoing, paid their bills, wouldn't steal a dime. Just trying to exist.

Nally: Well do you remember any intervention by the federal agents with people that--

Montgomery: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. We had the Prohibition agents 10:00that we could see around Springfield that would come in every so often. And then, too, I think that we had one or two that was living here as Prohibition agents. And they would make a raid every now and then. We'd hear about that. It might cause a little excitement. One day we found that there was a still that had been removed from the place of operation and brought up to the courthouse, or the jail. And was chained to the jail, and locked. And the next morning, it was gone. The owner came and got it, cut the chain, and removed 11:00the still wherever it, from where it came.

Nally: And nobody tried to interfere with this. No law enforcement.

Montgomery: If they did, it was soon forgotten. But that happened.

Nally: Well, do you have any recollection of anything as lawless as guns and people being killed or any of that happening here?

Montgomery: No. No.

Nally: That happened all over the United States. But it wasn't that ferocious here.

Montgomery: That wasn't here. This here, this was just local making sugar whiskey. Some of it was transported, I understand, to Lexington and Louisville and the larger centers. By just hiding it in the cars, or just some ways smuggling it. They moved it around. Sometimes, so I hear, that it was sold in kegs, little kegs 12:00of fifteen to twenty gallons.

Nally: So it was sent from Washington County out to bigger markets.

Montgomery: Yes. Yes. It wasn't sent to, it was sent to people. (?) people. I remember, I remember my cousin, (Ellie Planker?), was a big operator at the (Berken?) stockyard.

Nally: That's Louisville, Kentucky.

Montgomery: That's in Louisville. And I was going to, I was riding back to Louisville with him to spend a few days with some of my relatives. And he says, "First I've got to go by a friend of mine down here near Fairfield." So I said, "Well, that would be fine." So we stopped at the house. And then, the owner of the house says, "Well, come and go with me." So we went out to his barn. He was driving a kind of a 13:00car with a trunk, or rumble seat, I believe it was. A rumble seat. So we drove out there and drove into the barn. And the man got up into the loft, uncovered a barrel, I mean a small keg of whiskey, and rolled it over, and they put it into the car. And we were going into Louisville.

Nally: So you were carrying.

Montgomery: Yeah. Yeah.

Nally: Do you recall this Fairfield gentleman's name?

Montgomery: No. No, I didn't know him. I didn't know him.

Nally: He was just a connection of Cousin Alexander.

Montgomery: Well, he was a maker. He was a maker. They made it and my cousin Alexander knew of him, and probably sold a lot of stock for him. And he was a very, had 14:00a very good name of making good whiskey.

Nally: Well do you know where it went after you took it to Louisville? Was there any conversation between Fairfield and Louisville?

Montgomery: Oh, no. It went to (Alexander's?) home and he just used it as personal. He wasn't selling. There was never any organized around here, organized deals of making some (?) dealer and then selling. It was made and the person that wanted it just got it from the moonshiner and bootlegger.

Nally: It was just personal use.

Montgomery: That's right.

Nally: Well do you recall during Prohibition, you know, when the medicinal whiskey came into being, and the government gave permission for the doctors to dispense it?

Montgomery: It occurred all through Prohibition. From my knowledge, I recall even at eleven years old, or 1920, that if a doctor felt that you needed some whiskey for medical reasons, 15:00that he could write a prescription and it would be taken to a drugstore and they got it.

Nally: Do you remember the cost of paying for the drugstore and the doctor?

Montgomery: It wasn't too expensive.

Nally: It wasn't. Well, was there a lot of fake medical problems because of that, do you think?

Montgomery: It was some. There were some, to my knowledge. Just being a kid, a young person, I couldn't say just how much it was. But it was done to a certain extent. Particularly the doctors themselves, if they wanted a drink of whiskey, they used it. But not to any excess that we ever heard of.

Nally: Well, do you recall what medicines there were on the market at that time? Was it important to have whiskey available since 16:00medicine was not, probably, very much at that point developed? Do you remember the medicines that were available?

Montgomery: Well, I wouldn't say what it was good for and not good for, but it was kind of a, I guess you could call it a sedative. Not a sedative, but a--

Nally: Stimulant?

Montgomery: Stimulant. Or something that would ease your pain.

Nally: Well I know today, we have so much medicine on the market, it's hard to realize that at that time, there was so little.

Montgomery: Tranquilizer. It was kind of a tranquilizer.

Nally: Well can you tell me any of your recollection about what was going on in Nelson County? I know as the '20s developed, you became a businessman. The late '20s, early '30s, and you did business in Nelson County. And you knew the distillers 17:00personally, probably.

Montgomery: Yes.

Nally: Can you give me a background on some you knew? And business that you had conducted with some of the distillers?

Montgomery: Yes. I was acquainted with the Beams. I knew Mr. Jim Beam, who was the owner, or the family was the owner of the Jim Beam Distillery. I knew the Samuels, that was the Mr. Leslie Samuels, who was the owner of the Sam (?) out of Samuels, Kentucky. The Heaven Hill Distillery was a new organization that started at an old site that had been a distillery and a lot of prominent people, including the Shapiras and Mr. 18:00Mathis and Sam Nally. (Alec Bankford?), and a group went together and formed this, the Heaven Hill Distillery. And also Mr. Nolan, Dick Nolan from (Levling?), Kentucky, was the real instigator of the Heaven Hill Distillery. He was the one that interested the Shapiras in opening the Heaven Hill Distillery.

Nally: I think that was after this period. That was probably in the '40s.

Montgomery: Nope.

Nally: No?

Montgomery: No. This is just at the end of, this is just before Prohibition. This is when it was going to be known that Prohibition was going to be disposed of. And that legal whiskey will again be made. This was in, probably, the 1932-'33. 19:00Nally: Most people don't know that Heaven Hill was formed at that time. They think it was formed in the early '40s.

Montgomery: Oh. Well, it took a while. It took a while to go. And of course, you don't make whiskey and sell it the next day. You have to age it. And that did take time. Same thing happened to a distillery that's no longer in existence. It was started by a Mr. (Louis Guthrie?) and (?) from (St. Nally?) and (?) Nelson. And the building still remains. But it's no longer in existence.

Nally: And that started about the same time when the repeal began? They began--

Montgomery: Slightly afterwards. Slightly after Prohibition had been done away with and legal whiskey was again, whiskey was again legal.

Nally: Well being a young insurance man, were you eager to insure these distilleries as they began operation again? 20:00Montgomery: Absolutely.

Nally: Good. And so--

Montgomery: And did. And did.

Nally: So you crossed over the line and went over and worked in Nelson County with these people.

Montgomery: Because a lot, the reason that I did, a lot of people that I was either related to by birth or were people from Springfield, Kentucky that put money up and I knew them personally.

Nally: This was Mr. Sam Nally?

Montgomery: Mr. Sam Nally. And, of course, (?) Nally: Dick Nolan.

Montgomery: Mr. Dick Nolan. And the Shapiras. They were all Springfield people then.

Nally: Well tell us about--

Montgomery: They didn't even live in Bardstown.

Nally: Well tell us about your connection with Mr. Beam. How was he to deal with? And what condition was he in as Prohibition lifted?

Montgomery: Well, 21:00Mr. Jim Beam at that time was an elderly man. And I knew his son, Jerry Beam, better than I knew him. Of course they had to rebuild the old distillery. It had run down, been vacant for years, and used for other purposes. And it took quite a while and quite a lot of money to bring it back into a condition that it could be operated.

Nally: That's at Clermont, Kentucky.

Montgomery: That's at Clermont, Kentucky. And the Samuels, I knew Mr. Leslie Samuels faintly. But I did know his son, T.W. Samuels.

Nally: Bill, Senior?

Montgomery: Bill, Senior. 22:00And became a very personal friend and wrote a great deal of business for me. And then later, when he sold out, I followed with him through the maker's mark that he bought from--

Nally: (Berk Springs?), it was called.

Montgomery: (Burt Springs?), the (Burts?) Nally: That was in the early '50s.

Montgomery: That was in, yeah, that was somewhat later. After the war.

Nally: Well all of these men had been extremely prosperous since that time. They have all done, (?) and Mr. Beam's operation still is one of the biggest in the world.

Montgomery: Yeah.

Nally: The thing that was so marvelous about Mr. Beam, I understand, was that he was, as you say, an older person. But when he established his second distillery, it became more prosperous than his first had ever. And he made more money in between 23:00the time in his late sixties to his late seventies than he did in the preceding years when he was a young person.

Montgomery: Well, there was a lot more money to be made in whiskey after it came back than there was beforehand. There was many, many problems in legal whiskey after Prohibition. And that was the amount of taxation that was imposed upon legal whiskey. And many of the distilleries were suffering greatly because when (whiskey?) came a certain age, the tax had to be paid. And if it weren't sold, hadn't been disposed of, the tax still had to be paid. And a lot of these distillery people just didn't have the cash and the available money to pay this huge tax.

Nally: Do you remember any--

Montgomery: So fortunately--

Nally: Do you remember any of those in particular?

Montgomery: Yes. 24:00That was all of them. All of them. I remember that was the Beams. I remember the Samuels. Certain (?) Maker's Mark. Well, everyone. All of them. Because it was a tremendous amount of money. Because ten dollars a gallon, or something of that sort. And if they had any thousands and thousands of gallons in the warehouses aging, and it reached this age where tax had to be paid, that called for lots and lots and lots of money.

Nally: Well, they evidently, there were some that were more astute businessmen than others, and managed to come through it.

Montgomery: Oh, sure. Well, and it also caused a lot of selling out to the bigger companies. Like Seagram's and (?) and 25:00National Distilleries.

Nally: (American brands?) Do you remember, in your twenties, was there any repercussion from the churches? Was there preaching from the pulpit? Were there statements from the Vatican? Was there anything that came into this that tried to regulate the morals?

Montgomery: I, in my own judgment, I do not feel that the Catholic Church really felt that there was any moral obligation in making illegal whiskey. For the simple reason that most of them were good, devout Christians that took care 26:00of a large family. And it was a matter of survival that they did that. And from character witnesses and things, many priests would testify that he did make moonshine, which was illegal then, according to the law. But he was high caliber, honest, upright, and was just trying to put bread on the table for his family.

Nally: So the priest would vouch for these families.

Montgomery: Absolutely. They have. And I've seen it and heard it done.

Nally: How's that now? Where would you see it and hear that done?

Montgomery: I heard it done some family in, near Marion County or Nelson County, was brought before the federal jury in Louisville. And the local priest was called as a character witness. And he was 27:00told that he was a good moral man, an honest man, religious man and everything. The only thing was that he, the only reason that he was breaking the law was that he just didn't have any other means during the Depression to take care of his family.

Nally: And that would be in a court system that this would be done?

Montgomery: This was in a court.

Nally: On behalf of the people.

Montgomery: He probably was, he probably was guilty. He was guilty of making illegal whiskey. But it would be a character witness that would tell them that he was high class, honest, poor gentleman with usually a large family.

Nally: So the church really stood beside people that they thought were worthy?

Montgomery: They didn't, they didn't say you should do it or you should not do it. But they said that he was 28:00not a criminal type person.

Nally: Well do you remember big jail sentences, and people being taken to prison? Any of that?

Montgomery: Well, they weren't big jail sentences. They may be thirty days in jail, or something of that sort. It wasn't organized crime in any sense. It was just breaking the law by making whiskey that was not legal at the time.

Nally: So there was no big black market here at all.

Montgomery: No, no. There was no black market. And I recall one instance seeing, going to Lexington and there was a car that had been pulled over and stopped, two 29:00or three automobiles. And what had happened was this person was taking moonshine, white sugar whiskey, to Lexington in an old car. It was a star, I remember. And the Prohibition officers, they had it in half gallon jars, half gallon jars, and it all took to the back of the car and covered it up so it shouldn't be seen. But anyhow, they stopped and they found it. So they were taking it and throwing it against the post along the fence line and breaking it, and it was running down in the ditch, you know.

Nally: Were there people down on their knees trying to get it up?

Montgomery: No, no.

Nally: Do you remember feeling 30:00that this was a movement conducted by the irate women of the United States? The WCTU? Did you have any feeling of women being instrumental in having pushed this?

Montgomery: You mean for Prohibition?

Nally: Yes.

Montgomery: Well, really and truly, I was a little young at that time. I know, I'm sure, that before Prohibition, it used to be that you had the open saloons. And they would just go in and take a drink of whiskey at the bar and didnt-- [End Side A. Begin Side B.] Nally: We were talking about the women as opposed to the legalization 31:00of whiskey again, and their part in it.

Montgomery: Back in, back in those days, you never saw a woman drink. You just, they just didn't use alcoholic drink. So it was just the men. And usually they would just do it on occasions that, like county court day, county court day. Or something when they had to go to town. I'll never forget one story I heard, this fellow said, "Well, this is county court day and I just have to go to Springfield." And he says, "Every time I go to Springfield on county court day, I can't help but going to the (?) and getting too much. And it just kills me to think that that's what I've got to do today."

Nally: And he did it.

Montgomery: And he did it.

Nally: Well tell us about 32:00the saloons in Springfield. Very few of us at my age are familiar with where they were, or how many there were.

Montgomery: There were about three or four. Three or four. It would have just been like any other store. I think they had one under the hotel.

Nally: Walton Hotel?

Montgomery: Old Walton Hotel, yeah. They had one down there. I think there was one over here where Steve Kelly has a drugstore. There was one there. And then there was one right on (?) Road. What's the name of that lady that sells the antiques?

Nally: Shoemakers.

Montgomery: Okay.

Nally: So people would go in and have a drink, and probably have something to eat. Is this right?

Montgomery: Oh, no.

Nally: No feeding.

Montgomery: They didn't feed. They had a kind of a bar set up, maybe some cheese, you could cut yourself 33:00a piece of cheese. Or they had these pickled eggs.

Nally: Or pickled pig's feet?

Montgomery: Yeah. Pickled pig's feet. And things of that nature. But no (?) Nally: No restaurant. But they did serve sandwiches.

Montgomery: Whiskey at that time was not served like it is at the present time where you have a drink before eating, and then eating. It was just the men. Women, you never saw a woman go into a bar. Into a saloon, not a bar. They called them saloons in those days. You never saw that.

Nally: Well when you went in, did you stand at the bar? Or was there seating?

Montgomery: Well, they had stools. And then they had chairs sitting around. It wasn't a table. They didn't have tables or anything of that sort. But they just had, it was a gathering place.

Nally: A social.

Montgomery: Kind of a social thing.

Nally: I know there were many, many in Bardstown at one point. And then during 34:00the Prohibition time, I think there were many, those same spots, but just in a little different fashion. You could go to the same places and get the illegal drink.

Montgomery: A lot of them were able to get whiskey from the drugstores through influence with their doctors. And that was good legal old whiskey made before Prohibition.

Nally: Well, this was the medicinal.

Montgomery: This was supposed to be the medicinal.

Nally: It came out of the warehouse after being aged and (?) Montgomery: That's right.

Nally: Well do you remember the city and county officials that were on hand at that time? And how they kept law and order? Or if they just sort of looked over most of it?

Montgomery: Most of the Prohibition agents that I knew were on the pay off deal. And I can recall around Mackville 35:00and down in that section of the county of Nelson and Marion and Washington where it seemed like, and over and around Newhaven and places of that sort, many, many moonshine spots. And you could tell by the smoke coming out of their little operation, stills, you know. They usually had a person, one person, kind of notify them how your equipment, so and so is in town and he's coming out here to make a raid. So he would have the money, and he would pay off the Prohibition agents. And there was a lot of graft. Because nobody 36:00really, very few, wanted Prohibition. They found out it didn't work. It didn't get rid of whiskey. And it wasn't the answer to the (deal?) whatsoever. It didn't take long to prove that you're just not going to deny people using alcohol when they want it. Speakeasies.

Nally: Tell us about those.

Montgomery: Speakeasies were the things in larger cities like Louisville, Chicago, Cincinnati and so forth, and people would learn where they were. And they would have illegal whiskey, illegal beer, home brews. And they'd sneak in the back door. And they did have chairs. 37:00Nally: Did you have to have a password? Or know somebody? Or have a little identification or any of that? Or did you just find out where they were and go?

Montgomery: Well, no. They were pretty well secured. And they would have, they would have locked doors. And you would have to be able to identify yourself and so forth before you could get in.

Nally: Did you have guards and that type of thing? Did you feel?

Montgomery: They did. They had guards.

Nally: And I guess they were raided from time to time.

Montgomery: Oh, yes. Many times. Many times.

Nally: So you never knew. If you were in there when they were raided, were you taken to jail?

Montgomery: No. I was in one in Cincinnati that was raided. And we were just drinking some homebrew, I think. And the police came 38:00and raided the place. But they just asked the people if they would be so kind to leave. And then they arrested the operators.

Nally: So you didn't even have to go testify or anything.

Montgomery: Oh, no, no. We weren't doing anything.

Nally: I know. What about the economic activity here? Did you feel a real slowdown of monies and all? Affected just with the distilling operations being closed? Did that just make a marked difference? Or was it so close to the Depression that you couldn't separate the two?

Montgomery: You couldn't separate, but we had a feeling, all, particularly the farmers that raised the grain and things that was used by the distilleries in making whiskey, that market had closed. So it was, it helped 39:00to cause the Depression and tough times after World War I. And it added to the Depression, without a doubt. And the worst part about it, it didn't do away with the use of alcohol. And people were drinking this stuff that they didn't know what it was, and didn't care. And they were getting jake leg and various results of physical disability that came from illegal whiskey.

Nally: You knew of people, then, that were afflicted.

Montgomery: Yes, yes.

Nally: And couldn't get better?

Montgomery: No.

Nally: That was permanent, then?

Montgomery: That was a permanent thing.

Nally: What is a jake leg?

Montgomery: It's kind of a, you're paralyzed. 40:00And you're unable to use your feet. And it's very painful. We knew a number of people that had jake leg in Chicago because of getting some illegal, getting some bad whiskey. It was all illegal.

Nally: What about blindness? I've always heard people went blind. Did you ever hear of cases of that?

Montgomery: Yes. Heard cases of that. I didn't know of any cases, but I heard of them.

Nally: So there were terrible side effects.

Montgomery: Terrible side effects.

Nally: Once this was discovered where that whiskey had come from, would you shut those people down? You know, if you had known that a jake leg came from a certain moonshiner? Would those people be wiped out?

Montgomery: Well, only by, nobody patronizing them. There was no legal places to go to shut them down because they're illegal to begin with. 41:00But there would, people would say, "Oh, don't go. Don't buy their moonshine." Or, "Don't get that because it's not good." And my father-in-law, (Hep Rugle?), he had a pet moonshiner down and around (Loretta?) that he just felt like made the best that could be bought. And he always kept a keg of it in his attic, of this outstanding good moonshine.

Nally: How would you drink moonshine? Would you combine it with anything else? Would you drink it straight?

Montgomery: Oh, no, no. You didn't drink it straight. Most of them drank it, as I said, like my father, toddy.

Nally: And a toddy would be water, sugar?

Montgomery: Sugar, water, and whiskey. 42:00Nally: Little lemon?

Montgomery: Well, I don't think they fooled with lemon. Then they would just stir it and drink it with a spoon.

Nally: Iced? Or warm?

Montgomery: They usually put a piece of ice in it.

Nally: All they need was a little mint for mint julep.

Montgomery: Talking about priests, this is a good one, I think, I don't mind telling. St. Rose was our congregation, our parish. And most all the priests liked just a little bit of drink. And my father was one of the leading parishioners. And he would kind of get it for them. And every so often, the pastor at St. Rose would make us a visit. And as a kid, I would wonder why he would come to see us. So he was coming up, and my daddy would have two or three bottles to 43:00give him, or to let him have. I don't know whether he gave it to him or just what. But yeah, they used it. Yeah. They were just normal as anybody else.

Nally: (they were in need of it?) Montgomery: Sure, sure, they need it.

Nally: St. Rose is in Washington County, right outside of Springfield.

Montgomery: Right outside of Springfield.

Nally: And it's a Dominican order.

Montgomery: Father Wilburn was the head of the congregation. And he would, Sunday visitor about once a month.

Nally: You have given us a wonderful background of this oral history during this Prohibition era in Washington County. And thank you so much.

Montgomery: You're most welcome. I don't know whether it will be a big help or not.

End Session.