Oral History Interview with Mary Catherine Willett

[Begin Interview] Nally: The following is an interview with Mary Catherine Willett by Flaget Nally for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. The name of this project is Prohibition in Nelson County. The interview was conducted in Bardstown, Nelson County, Kentucky, on 117 Broadway Avenue--

Willett: No. Just Broadway.

Nally: Just Broadway.

Willett: West Broadway.

Nally: West Broadway. On January 23, 1989.

Willett: Now let's see how that came through.

Nally: Mary Catherine, can you tell me how old were you when Prohibition began in 1920?

Willett: I suppose I was six, which is very young. And I'm not sure that I remember a great deal about it. I remember hearing a lot about it.

Nally: Can you tell us some of the things that you heard 1:00and just remember as a very young child? Your first impressions, when Prohibition happened in Nelson County--

Willett: Not really.

Nally: How did it affect you?

Willett: Not really.

Nally: It didn't affect you as a student?

Willett: No. No, I was a child. I'm sure it didn't affect me then. Later on, as a teenager, going to dances and all that, I can remember that we had nothing to drink. Oh, some of the boys did. But generally it wasn't accepted. You didn't have beer or anything else. So I remember that particularly. I remember that Prohibition, the era, was bad. Economically bad. Because in Bardstown, there were two industries: farming and distilling. 2:00And when the distilling industry was gone, well, some of my brothers said we had the Depression before the Depression. And I think that was true.

Nally: Well, give us a background now of your family. And how they were affected by Prohibition.

Willett: Well, as long as I can remember, my family were in the whiskey business. My dad was with Clear Springs for years when I was a child. Had a long time with them.

Nally: Now tell us where Clear Springs was.

Willett: Clear Springs was out near Nazareth, on the other side of Nazareth. It was a small distillery. But I remember going out there. They had great, to me they were huge warehouses. They aren't now. But they were then. And then later on I realized that there was very little difference warehouses somewhere else. They weren't that big, but they were pretty good sized. And then, as I remember, that things were so very dead. 3:00Nothing, of course, nothing much happened, not a great deal happened anyplace, but this seemed less here than there had been.

Nally: Just less money--

Willett: Mm hmm. Less money.

Nally: And less activity?

Willett: Less activity. Less, well, from other places, I mean, if you compare it with other places, it just seemed to be just so terribly quiet.

Nally: Well, was the whole climate of the town just, did it seem depressed and desolate? Or were people just still hopeful that things would return? How did you feel like the atmosphere was?

Willett: Actually, Prohibition didn't last forever, you know. We thought it did, but it didn't.

Nally: Fourteen years.

Willett: Fourteen years. And so I guess that there was always hope. My father never believed that it was the right thing to have. And he always thought it would come to, it would be repealed. But he was one of the few, I think, in this area.

Nally: That stayed hopeful?

Willett: Mm hmm. But he was an optimist by nature anyway. 4:00Nally: Tell us your father's name.

Willett: Lambert Willett.

Nally: Lambert Willett. And your brothers, also.

Willett: They were in the whiskey business, most of them.

Nally: There was John--

Willett: Townsend, John, Norman was not. Townsend, John, Paul, particularly. And then the rest of them.

Nally: Charles?

Willett: Charles was later in the distributing business. He still is.

Nally: Robert?

Willett: Robert was, yes. In a different capacity, though. He was a lawyer with the company. Bill was not. And Norman was not. Norman's an engineer, and Bill was with, is an agricultural economist. Try that again, please. Let's see how it's coming through. 5:00Nally: Mary Catherine, I'd like to ask you, if, of course, the distillery was closed during Prohibition, what, then, did your father turn to to support this large family? 6:00Willett: Farming, mainly. And he also, of course, invested in the market. He was finally, after years, just before repeal, I think, or maybe it was right after, he was asked to rebuild the old (?) plant, which was later the Bernheim Distillers.

Nally: Where was that located?

Willett: That was Seventeenth and Breckinridge, in Louisville. And Townsend and Paul also joined him down there. And then they decided that they wanted their own place and built the Willett Distilling Company.

Nally: And that is located?

Willett: Out on (?) Highway.

Nally: Highway 49, right outside Bardstown.

Willett: Mm hmm.

Nally: And that happened in the '30s, (?) Willett: Yes. And I was with the distillery, too.

Nally: I didn't know that.

Willett: Yes. I was officially 7:00the secretary. I always said I was the only, that I was the only one available. (?) that particular thing. But I kept books, too.

Nally: You were secretary for your entire family, your father and your brothers.

Willett: For the company.

Nally: Now how did the company prosper? Did it grow well after this period? And did things start coming around after the repeal?

Willett: It did fine for a while, but I think that it was a small distillery. And it was just too, when the whiskey business (finally?) again, generally had trouble. And then we went out of business.

Nally: How long ago would that be, Mary Catherine?

Willett: I don't know exactly. Been several years. We did make good whiskey, guaranteed.

Nally: Always heard that. Always thought that. And what was the name of the product?

Willett: (?) Bardstown was our main product. And I'm sorry it didn't 8:00continue. But perhaps it was best. At least right now, it seems best.

Nally: Well, getting back to the days of the Prohibition, this illegal whiskey that was made, the moonshine production, did you know, or did you feel the impact of that at all, or were you too young?

Willett: I was too young.

Nally: But there was a lot of bootlegging going on.

Willett: I always heard. (?) I don't know. I don't know. But I should think it would have happened.

Nally: Well, can you remember how the families here that were involved in distilling, as yours were, how did they, what type of lives did they have to carry on during the period when things got so desperate? The Beams, for instance.

Willett: I don't know. I really don't know. They existed, anyway. And I suppose, I suppose 9:00they must have had some investments. Because most everybody does, eventually.

Nally: Well did your father's company at that time make medicinal whiskey? Do you remember what happened to the whiskey in the warehouses during Prohibition?

Willett: I think they did.

Nally: They did. So they sold that to the government?

Willett: But I really don't know. I don't know. I was so young. I was just a child.

Nally: Do you remember how it influenced your brothers? They were older people, and they were getting ready for their career?

Willett: Well now the question, at least, most of them were growing up. When they did grow up, and they were established back in the business more, not himself, he was working for the company, I think they were, that's when they did become interested. Some of them particularly. And they wanted to do, wanted to have their own company.

Nally: And I remember also you put out a wonderful cookbook. 10:00Willett: Yes, we did.

Nally: That is still a collector's item now among all people that do cook with bourbon and understand that, it's some of the best recipes.

Willett: Pat, my sister, did that. And, of course, she had Mother, she told the story many times. Mother just was sort of a cook that could take a pinch of this, and a pinch of that. And so she would take a pinch and Pat would say, "Oh, Mother, put this in this piece of wax paper and I want to measure it." So she did that with certain recipes. Of course, she collected them from other people. Friends and relatives. And favorite recipes that we knew about. And others, she changed herself, or added to. And I was an official tester, I remember that.

Nally: Well, you all did a wonderful job. Because it is, my brother's up in the East (?) taking him a copy.

Willett: People still ask for it. Pat has thought about making another. (?) Nally: It was called the Old Bardstown.

Willett: Mm hmm. And we gave away, gave away 11:00all those copies. That might have been a mistake.

Nally: I think so. Because they're still standing in line for them. Do you remember downtown Bardstown when this happened? You know, the main thoroughfare maybe was two blocks long. What happened to the old saloon? What happened to the little bars and taverns?

Willett: As far as I know, the saloons just disappeared. As far as the bars and taverns, and I never knew about those things.

Nally: The (Talba?) Tavern.

Willett: (Talba?) Tavern was always in existence, but it was a place to eat, as far as I know. I don't know.

Nally: Well could you tell, as a child, could you remember a behavior pattern changing in the town? For instance, were there speeches from the pulpit about it? Do you recall--

Willett: Not that I recall.

Nally: --the priest or the clergy got into it? No.

Willett: I don't remember anything. Maybe somebody else would, but I don't.

Nally: You just remember mostly the lack of activity 12:00and the lack of money.

Willett: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Nally: Nothing being generated.

Willett: As far as seeing somebody with too much to drink, you occasionally still do. We did then. And even during Prohibition, I was told that there were people who would drink anything, anything with alcohol in it. And sometimes to their very, very bad detriment.

Nally: Did you know of any cases where people did die of drinking a moonshine potion that wasn't very safe?

Willett: Not really. I knew of one young man whose health was definitely, I was told he did, his health was definitely later on impaired. (?) had a great future. If that was it, I don't know. Because you never know. There are so many things we're not told.

Nally: True.

Willett: (?) as they are.

Nally: Very true. Well, do you remember the law enforcement here? Do you remember the sheriffs, or all the people in charge of, the head of the police? Or those that would have been, legislating all this 13:00big turnover of activities?

Willett: I don't. I don't even know if there was a great big turnover. I was just a child. Perhaps there was. I don't know. I'm not very much help about this. (?) because I don't remember. I was not very old.

Nally: Well, it's true, (? said to John?), you only just see what the family is actually doing. And your father, you say, went on. What were his products? What did he grow? Corn?

Willett: Well, he grew corn. And feed for cattle. And he raised cattle. Had (?) Angus. Sometimes. Sometimes no cows, at first.

Nally: Well he was a very diversified man that could turn--

Willett: Yeah. And then he also gave a lot of his time to the city.

Nally: He did? Was he on the city council?

Willett: Mm hmm. He was on the city council. He did a lot of that. He loves all that activity.

Nally: Were they burdened with this situation? The city council there probably, that was a great problem, to run a town and no money.

Willett: Well, I'm sure they didn't have much money.

Nally: No taxes. 14:00Willett: Well, things, by the time Dad got back in, the council was more active. He was also back in the whiskey business and distilleries, several of them were built around here.

Nally: Can you recall some of the distilleries in this area then?

Willett: You mean that were built after repeal?

Nally: Well, yes. Before and after. Yes.

Willett: Well, the only one I knew then, before, was, as I told you, I was just a child. I did know the (Cheyenne?), which before that was the old, wait a minute, when my dad was young, when I was growing up, I guess that was the Lancaster plant. And a Mr. Lancaster, wait a minute, what was his name? Sam Lancaster was also a cousin of my grandfather. So, see, it was all in the family.

Nally: Yes.

Willett: And that was our little road. Do you remember that, the (Shaw ?) plant?

Nally: No.

Willett: Well, anyway, 15:00then they had the Tom Moore plant. Tom Moore was an uncle of my father's.

Nally: It was a family business.

Willette: Yeah. Well, they were into it, from different places. They were all little distilleries. Did you ever see that copy of the Standard years ago, when all the distilleries were all over the country? Do you remember seeing that?

Nally: Yes.

Willett: I don't know how many. How many distilleries were we supposed to have had then?

Nally: I'm not sure of the exact number. I know that in 1959, there were nineteen here. And before Prohibition, I think there was something like thirty-nine.

Willett: I think that's right. And it was amazing. All little places. And I don't imagine they warehoused very much. I don't know.

Nally: Small amount.

Willett: I imagine a small amount. But it's just, I imagine maybe, you know, because I don't remember. I didn't have anything to go on, except that one article. And some memories. I know all these people 16:00that were related to me had distilleries, but they were not big distilleries. They couldn't have been.

Nally: They were lined up along the railroad, I understand.

Willett: A lot of them were, yeah.

Nally: And out toward Nazareth? Nazareth College, all that was Jim Beam.

Willett: Mm hmm. See that was, that was all the railroads, that's where the river was. So it must have been, it's a different life then, an entirely different. I can't imagine, if we ever have a Depression now in comparison to then, I think it will be a great deal worse. Because then, people didn't have a whole lot. We didn't have all this modern conveniences. We had some of them, we were gradually getting them, but nothing like now.

Nally: What were some of the conveniences that we would call in quote, "modern," back in the late '20s?

Willett: A lot of things. Because radio was just beginning then, wasn't it? And after that, of course they had television. Record players now. 17:00Refrigerators were just, electric refrigerators, when was that (?) refrigerator, put out by GE, I think. That was a long time ago. We had one of those. Years ago. And now they're so different. And so much more modern. More things that you can do with.

Nally: And you had a family car, I'm sure.

Willett: Oh, yeah. But nowadays, they have the washing machine. But they didn't have, we had the old-- the first one we had was with the, what do you call those, pedals. Electric, that was the first one. And now they can do everything with it. Just put the clothes in, that's the end of it.

Nally: That's right. But you're saying that people were more resourceful then, because they had to be.

Willett: Of course they were. Yes. And I can go back further than that. When they didn't even have any of this. Used to have an icebox, instead of a refrigerator. I can go back too far.

Nally: 18:00Well, do you remember the combination of the early Prohibition years and then the Depression hit the Prohibition.

Willett: Right. Right.

Nally: So it doubled the impact.

Willett: Right. Right.

Nally: Even though as you say, it was Depression here as soon as Prohibition hit (?) But can you remember the newspaper headlines, or how things, it just was another blow.

Willett: Yes.

Nally: Who was president then? Was it (?) Willett: It was Hoover.

Nally: Hoover. Right.

Willett: But I don't think it was Hoover's fault. In spite of the fact that--

Nally: No. He was just here.

Willett: I think it was just, (?) and probably, well, it would be something like that again. But I hope never like it was then. Because I just don't see how we could possibly take it. People are not used to doing without. And I mean, the majority of people are not.

Nally: That's true. 19:00We've just gotten dependent on the life of ease. You wouldn't remember anything, then, about a black market? Or how things were working behind the scenes with--

Willett: Oh, I'm sure they did.

Nally: But you wouldn't know that.

Willett: No. Only by hearsay.

Nally: Would you know anything about any arrests or any of that being made? You weren't into that, either. What about the state of Kentucky? I guess you were probably too young for that, too, but the state, of course, felt the impact.

Willett: Well, I'm sure it did. I hope, I guess it's going to feel terrific impact about tobacco, also, now. It's too bad we just have things that--

Nally: That are just not the best. 20:00Willett: Too bad.

Nally: But do you remember the people from Washington and Marion County and their problems? Did you have friends there and know what they were subjected to the same?

Willett: They didn't have distilleries in Marion County, did they?

Nally: Oh, yes. Yes. But not nearly the number as Nelson County. They did. That's where Early Times started.

Willett: Oh, sure they did! Because again, that Mr. Mattingly, his wife was my father's aunt.

Nally: Mattingly and Moore?

Willett: Yes.

Nally: And who was that?

Willett: He went to, Billy F. Mattingly, he went to Marion County. They separated, and Uncle Tom kept the Moore Distillery, and he had the Billy F. Mattingly Distillery over in Marion County.

Nally: Oh, really? There were relatives of yours on every hillside, in the distilling business.

Willett: Seems like it, doesn't it? You know, they were always nice people, too.

Nally: I know.

Willett: And the funny thing about it is, the strange thing about it, perhaps, is that to this, well, until very recently, my father, of course my father's been dead for quite a while now, but there always seemed to be a sort of a 21:00camaraderie among the distillery people. They'd know, wherever they were, they always could get together magically. I don't know how they did it. And they were always such nice people.

Nally: So they weren't as competitive as they were friendly?

Willett: Hmm, I guess they were competitive. But they were also friends. I think you can be both.

Nally: I think so, too.

Willett: At least, that's the way I got it. (?) Nally: Can you remember some of the other big distilling names, other than your family?

Willett: Well, of course. The Beams, the, oh, there were a lot of them.

Nally: Brown?

Willett: Browns. I can't right now. It just doesn't come to me. But there were a lot of them. Several names were outstanding. Moores, of course. But that again, gets into my family.

Nally: Yes, they're all your relatives.

Willett: Yeah.

Nally: What about the financial institutions here? The banks? 22:00Do you have any recollection of how shaky they must have been, or what happened to them?

Willett: No. I imagine they had a terrible time. But I don't know. Knowing what I know now, I imagine they did. Of course, it's all different now.

Nally: I know. There was no declaring bankruptcy like there is today. When people really did get to the end of their money--

Willett: See, again, I don't know. I'm sure there had to be something like that.

Nally: Do you have any recollection of this medicinal whiskey, and how it was dispensed?

Willett: By prescription, I suppose.

Nally: Yes. Do you remember the process of going to your doctor?

Willett: I didn't get any. I was too young. (?) that was all before my time. I'm sure I couldn't have gotten very interested in it at that age.

Nally: You were down at St. Joseph's grade school?

Willett: Grade school, uh huh. And then 23:00Bethlehem High School. Bethlehem Academy.

Nally: Then you went on to Nazareth College, junior college, and graduated there.

Willett: But see, that all happened, most of that was in, actually, I think Daddy was back to the, went to the Bernheim when I was at Nazareth, in the college. So almost all of that--

Nally: Can you tell me about the Bernheim? Is that the Bernheim Forest that we speak of?

Willett: The people that own the Bernheim name, see, that was the, yes. The old (Mac Selliger?) plant, was what it's called. But they called it the Bernheim Distillery. And I think that's because of that family. But I'm not sure.

Nally: Isaac Bernheim?

Willett: Mm hmm, I think so.

Nally: And was that down close to Jim Beam?

Willett: No, no, no. That's in Louisville. Seventeenth and Breckinridge. Dad went back and forth, every day for about, oh, a long, long time.

Nally: Well now, what was the name of their product, Mary Catherine, 24:00that they put out?

Willett: I.W. Harper. I can remember a few things.

Nally: Very good.

Willett: It's been a long time. All that's been a long time.

Nally: Do you remember your father discussing that product, and how they shipped it or what they did to promote it and sell it? Do you remember any of that?

Willett: Well, they had a lot more money back in that company. It was a very fine product. It was made by, I think it was made, possibly the same way we made our whiskey. With a, I'm trying to think of the name of the still, the kind of still. Oh, I can't. Anyway, made heavier whiskey. I could never see why 25:00they didn't make it, and if they wanted to dilute it, dilute it with water. But they dilute it now and sell it diluted. Less proof. I could never understand that part.

Nally: This is all 100 proof bourbon?

Willett: This is all 100 proof. We made 100 proof. (?) I.W. Harper was always 100 proof. That's the way they advertised it. But I don't know where that, I doubt if it still remains that.

Nally: I don't know. I do know that it's one of the favorites in Japan.

Willett: Is it? I didn't know that. Of course, you keep up with the whiskey business a lot better than I do now.

Nally: So you told me about the prominent citizens in Bardstown and Nelson County, as much as you can remember.

Willett: Oh, Samuels was a prominent name in the distillery business.

Nally: Certainly.

Willett: I almost forgot them.

Nally: And they weren't relatives.

Willett: No, they weren't relatives.

Nally: Well now, that was Mr. Taylor William Samuels. 26:00And his son, William Samuels.

Willett: No. Wait a minute. Leslie Samuels was the present Samuels' father. The present, wait a minute, Bill, Senior. That's right. And then Bill, Junior, of course. So you get generations here mixed up if you aren't careful.

Nally: It's true.

Willett: T.W. Samuels, who is now Leslie Samuels' father. And Leslie Samuels was the man that I knew as a child. And then as I grew up, of course, the present Bill Samuels. And I don't really know his son. But I know who he is.

Nally: They're the four people involved.

Willett: I never knew the original T.W. Or if I did, I don't remember.

Nally: And they were involved down in what we call Samuels now.

Willett: Mm hmm. They were.

Nally: And they were there for years. And then the younger (?) took over the old distillery down at Maker's Mark.

Willett: Well now, wait a minute. Bill Samuels never worked at T.W. Samuels, I don't think. 27:00I think it's Leslie, and possibly his father, I guess. But there again, I don't remember him. But I don't think that Bill worked down there. He might have, but I don't think so. He may have. If he did, it was a very short while. And I think he was in college most of that time. I'm not sure.

Nally: I'm not sure, either. I think he did work there for a certain amount of time. Not that long. But I know it was in the very early '50s that he started Maker's Mark. Of course, that's been a very successful enterprise, too.

Willett: Mm hmm. It has.

Nally: So the Willetts, the Samuels, the Mattinglys, the Moores. The Browns.

Willett: I met the wife, I recently met the wife of the man who did all that wonderful advertising for T.W. Samuels.

Nally: Who was that?

Willett: Mrs. Virginia 28:00Barker. He's dead. But she said he enjoyed that.

Nally: And he was the one who started that (?) where things began.

Willett: Mm hmm.

Nally: I understand, too, that Mrs. Samuels had a whole lot to do with that whole melting look on the top of the bottle, that wax look.

Willett: Oh, you mean the seal?

Nally: That was hers.

Willett: You mean, (?) Samuels.

Nally: I mean Bill Samuels, Sr.

Willett: I didn't know that. I did not know that.

Nally: Well, did you ever know Mr. Gess?

Willett: No.

Nally: You never met him.

Willett: I think I was disabled or ill by the time he came to town. And I met, I didn't get to meet a lot of people.

Nally: But in the '30s, you were moving around pretty briskly, and you did meet 29:00all these people.

Willett: Yes, I met a great number of people, but I didn't-- let's see. For a while, I did.

Nally: Mary Catherine, I want to thank you.

Willett: I don't think I've been very much help.

Nally: Oh, yes. You told us things that we didn't know.

Willett: I can't imagine anything I--

Nally: And if you think of anything else, you could tell me and we'll come back and say more.

Willett: I think I could do better the second time.

Nally: I think this is wonderful. I'm just pleased with it.

Willett: See how it comes out.

Nally: Again, I just wanted to discuss one thing with you that we hadn't talked about before. It's the moderation of the people of that generation, and how they did drink. You were speaking about family parties and good camaraderie among 30:00the distillers. Tell me how their habits were with the drinking.

Willett: I cannot remember everything for sure, but I am reasonably positive, as I remember, that their drinking habits were very moderate. In fact, I can't remember anybody, maybe a drink at a dinner party. That was it. And they were, just it seems to me like right now, if people would just be reasonable in drinking, in smoking, in anything, we'd have a much better life.

Nally: And all of this would not be a lost industry, probably, if people could just take it for what it is.

Willett: I think some people need a drink occasionally. They need it as, it makes them feel a little bit better. Makes them-- [End Side A. End Interview.]