Oral History Interview with William R. Cross

[Begin Interview] Hibbs: All right. This, the following is an interview with William Gross. Dixie Hibbs for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. Our project is Prohibition and its effects on Nelson County, Kentucky. The interview was conducted in Bardstown, Kentucky, at 211 South Fifth, on 9/27/88. William, would you like to tell me when you were born, and your parents and anything about yourself and your education and all?

Gross: I was born August the twenty-fifth, Dixie, 1913. My mother was Duncan, and she was originally from Nelson County. My dad was Thomas Cross from Breckinridge County. He met my mother in Louisville and they married. And later on, well, they had a family. And my dad always said that he didn't like large cities, and he wanted to raise his family in a rural area. 1:00So my mother's home place was a farm, like thirty-four to thirty-six acres. And when it was just three of us kids, well, my dad moved to Nelson County and purchased my mother's home place. So okay. You asked me about my education. At that time, where I was raised was approximately a mile and a half from East Bardstown, and about a mile from Early Times. And the school that I attended one through eighth grade was a one-room school at East Bardstown. And now, as you know, I was on the school board quite a while. And it was amazing to me how some people seemingly live half a mile from school and they 2:00(?) and picked up, when for eight years I walked a mile and a half to two miles every day. Rain, snow, sleet, or what have you. And then after I finished the eighth grade, at the time I went to school and you graduate from the eighth grade, you had to take a county examination before you could go to high school. And the county superintendent conducted this examination, or a representative from his office. And of course I was one of the lucky ones that passed the examination. And on the corner of First and Brashear, where it's a marker now, at that time, it was a four-year high school for blacks. And the name of the school was Nelson County Training High School. And 3:00there's where I attended four years of high school and graduate. And the rest of my education is through hard knocks and bumps and through practical education and experience.

Hibbs: And experience. Well if you were born in 1913, then you were about seven years old when Prohibition first came in in 1920. Your father was a farmer? Or was he a craftsman?

Gross: Oh, my father, that was his love, was farming. But he lived in Louisville at the time, of course, I don't know how many years. But his family moved there when he was still single. And he and his dad worked for (Mangle?) box company. And then his dad got injured and died from the injury. And 4:00he had several sisters and brothers still at home. So my dad didn't marry until all of his sisters and brothers were grown and out of high school. And then after that, well, he went to work for a company that bottled whiskey. Not massive production, but back in those days, according to what he told me, they bottled it in the place of business. They had a bottling operation in the space, and they didn't just bottle whiskey, they bottled all kinds of wines and (?). And I know you have heard about people, I don't think they do it so much now, but they used to, doctors prescribed certain types of wine and liquor for your health. And my dad used to fill these 5:00orders and deliver them and all this before he purchased my mother's farm and came to Bardstown. And then after he came to Bardstown, well of course he had to, or Nelson County, he had to find a job. And the farm that he originally purchased wasn't large enough to make a living on. So he did day work. And during Prohibition I heard him say, see, at this time, I remember when the original distillery at Early Times was named Early Times. Brown (Foreman?), I believe, owns the brand in Louisville now.

Hibbs: Right.

Gross: Well, that was originally Early Times. And I remember when it was a bottling operation. I remember all of it. I don't remember the distillery very clearly, but I remember different warehouses and bottling department. And up 6:00over the bottling room was a post office. And it was a grocery store there. And at 6:30 in the morning, just strictly a passenger train stopped at Early Times going to Louisville. It came back at eleven. It's going to Springfield. And it came back by Early Times at two in the afternoon, and back at 6:30 in the evening. And it was strictly a passenger time. And then they had a freight three days a week in addition to the passenger train. Anyway, well, they had trouble. At that time, instead of using cardboard cases, they used wood cases. And they had put in a new nailing machine. And they couldn't get it to work. And I had an uncle who knew my dad had worked, you know, in bottling 7:00and operations. So he told them about my dad. And some of them came out there and got him. And he went up and looked at it. And he told them to go to the grocery store and get him a can of talcum powder. And they did. And he mixed this talcum powder with the nails and put in the machine. And it worked.

Hibbs: It worked.

Gross: So from then on, see, then this was during Prohibition. And then, well, certain days or when they were necessary, they would bottle whiskey even during Prohibition for medicinal purposes. So whenever they bottled, well, they would let my dad know and he would always go up and run the nailing machine.

Hibbs: The nailing machine. That's neat. So he was connected with Early Times then during Prohibition. Nancy McKay was talking about Early Times 8:00and her memories. And she kept saying, "I know they were bottling, but I don't know why." Because she remembered the bottling, but she said, "I know that was during Prohibition."

Gross: Yeah.

Hibbs: So they were bottling for medicinal.

Gross: Yeah. That's right.

Hibbs: Then as you were growing up, of course, did you ever walk up to the distillery with your father? Or you just knew what was going on there.

Gross: Well, see, the post office was there, Dixie. You didn't have rural mail carriers like they have now. And everybody in a certain area, that's where you went to get the mail.

Hibbs: Mail.

Gross: And the owner of Early Times was name was Mr. John (Shawnee?). And his wife was Jack (?) aunty. Great aunty.

Hibbs: Right.

Gross: Yeah. And he, of course he knew that, you know, my dad. And I have one brother two years older than I. When we came up here from Louisville, just the three of us, my oldest brother, Martha and I. And 9:00I was always small. I didn't grow until after I got out of high school. And anyway, Mr. Shawnee used to tease me a lot when I went to the post office. They had company offices in the same, you know, on the second floor. Seemed like to me that the people that worked in the company office would give you your mail, too. And he used to kid me all the time. I remember that very distinctly.

Hibbs: Well then, after they bottled medicinal whiskey, did they finally shut down? Or do you remember if they--

Gross: Well they, as I indicated, they just bottled certain times. And what happened to the rest, the balance of the whiskey was on hand, I wouldn't have any idea, really. You know, I don't recall ever hearing anybody mention that.

Hibbs: Well Mr. Shawnee, did he die during this time? Or did he live?

Gross: Yes, I think he died during Prohibition. I remember when he remodeled the house. Who lives there now? Dr. Anderson.

Hibbs: Yes. Right. On North Third Street.

Gross: Yes. I remember he did 10:00extensive remodeling on that house. The way I recall, he didn't live too long after that. But at that time, I would say that was the most elegant house in Bardstown.

Hibbs: Mm hmm. Really. They're working a lot on it now. I think they're going to put a lot of that back. They're trying to uncover a lot of that. There were at least twelve distilleries operating when Prohibition came in Nelson County. Some of the questions that we were trying to find answers to, we assume the economy was affected badly because everybody was put out of work. Even if it was part time work, like you're saying on that one distillery, they could only work part time. Do you know of anybody that, any jobs that some of those distillery workers went to? Or did they move away? Or did they have another factory start up, or anything like that?

Gross: To my knowledge, they didn't move away. They didn't any 11:00factories start up. They just farmed and did the best they could. Of course, I feel sure that some few left. But I'd say the majority of them stayed in the surrounding area until things got better.

Hibbs: Got better. Well, of course this is right before, in the '20s. And then you had the stock market crash of '29. And then Depression all during the '30s. So I don't know whether we had a depression here starting in the '20s, or if we just had fifteen years or so of hard times as far as the distilling industry. Do you think that, what do you think about the bootleggers or the moonshiners? There were some of those around.

Gross: I would just like to say that I'm not a Prohibitionist, but I don't, you know, I did taste moonshine once to see what it actually tastes like. 12:00And I didn't like it. I think, personally, that Prohibition was really bad for the country. Not just from the economy standpoint, but before, prior to Prohibition, well, the government collected billions of dollars a year taxes, which was used to benefit the country as a whole, (for one and all?). And during the Prohibition era, well, instead of them collecting billions of dollars to help the government and the economy, they spent billions of dollars trying to enforce Prohibition, which they never, never was successful. And the saddest part of it all, the way I see it, Dixie, is that it was the loss of lives. It was so, so 13:00many lives lost, even though you were a legal Prohibition officer, you'd go out to raid these stills, you were just liable to be shot down. Just think of the families that left behind. And also the moonshiners. I would be afraid to even guess how many people lost their lives during the Prohibition era. And they never did stop the (?). In other words, if they would, I mean, I'm a deacon of my church, and I do not, you know, believe in overindulging. But if they would, you know, offer a bill today to vote whiskey out, I wouldn't vote for it. Because I have a real bad memory about what happened 14:00before. And I think it would be the same today.

Hibbs: Same today.

Gross: That's right.

Hibbs: Well it seems like anything we prohibit makes it more attractive to people.

Gross: Yeah, that's right.

Hibbs: And you just can't stop them. Seems like if you say, "No, you can't do this," then it's a challenge instead of a deterrent. Yeah.

Gross: That's right. Makes them more determined to do it.

Hibbs: Well we had, I know there are a lot of families that were connected with the distilleries. And some of them changed jobs, some of them just kind of waited it out. Of course, some of them got rich in various ways. They talk about how this one seems to be very prosperous and they don't know why. He didn't have a job that seemed to bring in much money. But the politicians. Did the politicians kind of turn the other way when the bootleggers are going through?

Gross: Of course, you know, I couldn't say in the affirmative that they did, but it was a lot of rumors that they did. And back to your question, when you mentioned 15:00some people got rich, well, on government whiskey that was stored in warehouses, the people that worked in these warehouses, I'm told, had connections with the owner and management. And they would steal this whiskey out and put so much water in barrels. And then they'd have this legal whiskey to sell. And they could get almost any price they'd ask for it. So that's what happened to a lot of legal whiskey.

Hibbs: Well, there are a lot of stories told. And this interview isn't like testimony in a court case. Oral history is really hearsay, because we're just passing on what we heard. And some of it is personal experience, just like your father telling us about his things. He's not here to tell us, so we have to use your memory to remind us. One of the things 16:00we've been talking about, the social life, a lot of people, of course now you go to wedding receptions or parties or any get together, and there's usually alcohol served. And the different ones I talk to seem to think that they never did this before Prohibition, that men went to a bar and got a drink, but they didn't bring it home. And I don't know if you have any feeling about that or not.

Gross: I wouldn't have any idea about that, because my mother, my mother didn't even drink soft drinks, and my mother and daddy, neither one, you know, drank alcohol. So we didn't have it. Well, in other words, when I was a kid, I saw bottles in the closet, maybe, two or three or something, but to see him drink or anything, well, I just never did see him do it. And you know, of course they didn't go to bars. And I was a kid. So I don't have any recollection 17:00about things.

Hibbs: You mentioned about the medicinal purposes. Do you think doctors did prescribe it for different things?

Gross: According to what I was told, I was told that they did.

Hibbs: I know that you legally--

Gross: You would get a prescription and you could go to the drugstore and get liquor. Yeah.

Hibbs: Do you think any of the doctors sold prescriptions for people who weren't really sick?

Gross: I would imagine. I would think so. But of course I don't know that.

Hibbs: No, no. You don't have any of those (?) Gross: No.

Hibbs: Was there any conversation about big city crime, or big city people coming in and buying whiskey?

Gross: Yes. Especially during the moonshine, well, that was during Prohibition. Yes, big city moonshiners came right into Bardstown. And I, of course, I never did see the operations. But 18:00I knew people that they say were big bootleggers. They would come, they would have local people here who would have connections. And they would give them an order just say for fifty gallons of moonshine. And the customer from Louisville and other places would come here. They would have a partner to pick it up. They tell me that they hid it under the floors in their homes. I know I have remodeled a house, and I found a hole in the floor. And my worker and I, we figured because this house, this guy used to bootleg. And I know, I heard about him being raided. So I don't recall him ever being caught. I'm pretty sure I found where he had a--

Hibbs: He had a hidey hole.

Gross: In the floor, you know, and carpet over. Well, you couldn't tell it was there. But in remodeling the home, of course he was dead and gone, but that hadn't been so many years ago. But I bet that was where he was hiding his liquor.

Hibbs: Where he was keeping it. Right. Well, there are a lot of, I know 19:00in our travels here, they tell us there are a lot of fortunes in Bardstown that were made during Prohibition that they're still using that way. Families that just, one of the ancestors decided they were going to ignore the law and make money while he could.

Gross: Well, when I was working at JPS Brown, well, the second month after I was there, I was warehouse superintendent. And of course we took entry. And during that period, you cut barrels. And when I say cutting barrels, well, you would weigh the empty barrel in prior to filling it. And you would put the tear on it. And then after you filled that barrel, it would go back on the scale and you would get the gross weight. And the net weight would determine the wine in proof gallons in that barrel. And I'm the guy that 20:00did this.

Hibbs: You took care of that.

Gross: And of course it was like your multiplication tables. You could study them and learn them by heart. And you know, it was just like singing a song. So that's what I did. I memorized them in a certain area, like from 350 pounds up to 375 pounds. So anything in that range, well, I didn't even have to look at the chart to know the gallons. And anyway, a certain person who I wouldn't name, you know real, real well, he used to, he hauled slops for JPS Brown. And he would come, you couldn't get slop until a certain time after it started to (?) and all that. And we took entry the first thing in the morning. And he, I think he liked me. And he would come over in the cistern room and not only would he be talking to me, but helping my helpers and the 21:00(?) could hear everything he said. And he would tell about how he handled moonshine. And like he said, sometimes he'd have so much in the attic and different things, and smell so plain that when he had company, he would take, you know, this Dr. Hess dip, disinfectant or something you use on the farm to dip sheep in. He'd mix that up and spray around, all over the house right around (?) to keep the moonshine from smelling so strong.

Hibbs: From giving away.

Gross: He could tell us some real, and he ended up in real good shape. Yeah.

Hibbs: Ingenuity there. You know, there's a lot of pitfalls there in running moonshine and whiskey and stuff, I may never have thought about. I hadn't thought about the odor being so strong. Of course it would. 22:00Gross: Yep, if you have a lot of it, it smelled.

Hibbs: Would he then put it in jars? Or in kegs?

Gross: They had it in kegs, gallon jugs, they tell me, fruit jars. And another thing, when we were talking about the loss of life, some people were careless then, distilling moonshine. And you know, it would have a poisonous effect. And according to what I heard, well quite a few people died from drinking inferior quality moonshine, too.

Hibbs: It would have been better, then, to consume the government whiskey they took out of the warehouse.

Gross: Right.

Hibbs: Because it had been distilled under certain conditions. They knew it was good.

Gross: That's true.

Hibbs: So stolen whiskey's better than illicit whiskey.

Gross: It sure is. It's pure. And 23:00then you derive a benefit from it, too.

Hibbs: When we look at the records, about 1919, they list all of the different barrels they've taken out of the distillery into bottling. They have what they call warehouse receipts.

Gross: Right. They had that after Prohibition. That's the way they did. Like, for instance, when we were making whiskey, say, for instance, you want to buy so many barrels of fall production, spring production and so forth, and you want it stored in our warehouses, well, they would issue you warehouse receipts. The (?) level of the barrels, the wine in proof gallons and dates and all that stuff. Something like a CD. 24:00Hibbs: It was put in there and it stayed until it matured.

Gross: That's right.

Hibbs: Like your CD. Okay. We could call it whiskey withdrawal. Okay. A WD there. Did you ever hear them talk about how they felt like it was going to be repealed and they just had to wait it out? Or was there ever any conversation there?

Gross: Yes, I remember hearing them talk about it. And some said it would, and some said it wouldn't. And eventually it was. Yeah, there was talk about it several years, I'd say, before if actually happened.

Hibbs: There was some talk, one of the interviews we had, we talked about a canning factory in Bardstown, that it only lasted maybe a year or two, but they thought it might have been set up to help the employment, maybe the latter part of the 1920s. 25:00Gross: I don't remember a canning factory. But as you say, it wasn't very long. It didn't last very long.

Hibbs: Do you think the tourism helped locally? You know, in 1922, when My Old Kentucky Home was purchased, and they started showing it to the public in 1923. Do you think tourism had any effect on the area, since the distilling was down? Or do you remember any of that?

Gross: I suppose it had some effect, but you didn't hear about tourism anything like you do now. I think it was a minor attraction.

Hibbs: Of course, they didn't have many places to stay, or places to eat, either, like that. That way. I know that your sister became a schoolteacher. And you were saying that after Prohibition you went into the distilling industry at JTS 26:00 Brown.

Gross: Right.

Hibbs: And you mentioned it was the first or second start up.

Gross: I won't say it was the second, but I think (?), in other words, I say it would be among, if I recall correctly, well, Bardstown distillery was the first distillery, and I don't remember. We started in '35.

Hibbs: '35.

Gross: I know that.

Hibbs: Started production in '35.

Gross: Started production. That's what I'm talking about.

Hibbs: Did they have to do a lot of repairs on the distillery?

Gross: (?) my sister.

Hibbs: Right. I was thinking about, you got into the distilling business later, and that's where some of these stories. And then I thought about Martha teaching. Did she go into teaching out of college?

Gross: Yes, she did. In other words, when we finished high school, if you graduate from high school and passed the county examination, you could teach to the eighth grade. Of course she didn't do that. She went to college, but she didn't do teaching before she graduated from college. And then after she graduated, 27:00well, she continued her education and got her master's degree from Indiana U. She graduated from Kentucky State. And then she did some additional work. And then my second sister was a teacher. She got her master's from, or she worked on it at Columbia University. And what's the university in Cleveland? I can't tell you.

Hibbs: Not Kent. No, that's Ohio.

Gross: No. But anyway, that's where she got her master's. Then my third sister was a teacher, also. All of them was teachers but the later sister. And she did about three years of college. And when she got married, well, she and her husband moved to Frankfort and they bought a grocery store 28:00and she operated the grocery store until their youngest finished college. And when the youngest finished college, she retired. Has been retired ever since. But she just, she just, the people in her neighborhood love her because she just does charity. If you have a pain, call Edna. Well, she's there. She was the citizen of the year in South Frankfort about two years ago.

Hibbs: Oh, wonderful. That's a really, I'm sure that your father and mother are looking down very proud about all of you all. [End Side A. Begin Side B.] Gross: I tasted it. I never did make it.

Hibbs: Home brew.

Gross: I'll tell you what I have made, Dixie. When I was at home as a teenager, I made 29:00grape wine. A domestic grape and wild grape. And also corn cob wine. Made out of corn cobs.

Hibbs: What is it in corn cobs that would ferment? I never have understood how to make--

Gross: I don't know. But the way I did it, someone told me, well, after my mother had canned corn, I took the cobs and put in a stone jar.

Hibbs: Oh, okay. The green corn.

Gross: And just barely covered them over with water and then, at that time, I knew how much sugar and I put sugar to it. And it fermented and it really was potent, too, I'm telling you.

Hibbs: I guess there's still enough sugar in that, carbohydrate--

Gross: In the cob.

Hibbs: In the cob. But you know, I always thought when they talked about corn cob wine, I was thinking about the cob that you have after you shell corn.

Gross: Oh, you mean dry corn. No.

Hibbs: I couldn't figure out how in the world--

Gross: No, it's the green--

Hibbs: It's the green corn.

Gross: Yeah.

Hibbs: All right. 30:00Now that's cleared that up.

Gross: And if it's made right, it has a real good taste. But it's really strong.

Hibbs: Well, some of this, some of these things coming out, this home brew they talk about, I assume it's a type of beer. Or a ferment--

Gross: It tastes something like, you know malt beer. Now I remember during my high school days, a lot of people made home brew. Yeah. And they had it around the home. And then a lot of people sold it.

Hibbs: Did they put it in bottles and sell it?

Gross: Yeah. They had, they put it in bottles. I have a capper somewhere, if I can find it, that they tell me that's what it was, used for capping home brew.

Hibbs: Capping home brew.

Gross: But I know it, I would say it's some capper for some bottle like a soft drink bottle.

Hibbs: I can see, now we go around picking up the cans for the money. I bet little boys got paid something for picking up the bottles then, did they?

Gross: I don't recall that.

Hibbs: Because you know there couldn't have been too many bottles. 31:00They'd want them all brought back.

Gross: That's right.

Hibbs: That way, but what about, I know the sheriff, we talked a little with some of the others about Wallace Brown, who was the judge, county judge. And he was a teetotaler. And probably was unbribable. I mean, I always had the opinion he was very upright. But you had a sheriff, and you had the federal officials. And of course you had the jailer. Mr. McCabe was jailer in most of that time. And I heard the phrase "buying a road," that you could buy a road, and that was a road the moonshiners would use, because they knew that nobody would be patrolling it. Was there a, there was a lot of talk about it, I'm sure, on who was bribable and who wasn't. Did you ever have a feeling that there was a lot more of that payoff and things like that going on? 32:00Gross: Yes. I didn't have that feeling because you know, I heard people say that a lot. And they had people, Dixie, they called them, they called them in those days pimps. And you know, say for instance, just an ordinary citizen, you know you don't like, you can ride around through town now, or on a holiday or Sunday afternoon, and you can pretty well tell where something illegal is going on.

Hibbs: Going on. Right.

Gross: Well, that was true during those days. And say, for instance, a guy you knew who bootlegged, and he scouted through the country woods and things, and he'd run up on moonshine. And these moonshiners would pay this guy to keep quiet. And as long as they paid him, well, he would. But if they quit paying him, well, for some reason, 33:00well, the revenue officers would soon be raiding.

Hibbs: They'd be right there.

Gross: And I know of one person that was a noted pimp, and I remember one time back in those days it was, you'd have tent shows. For instance, right across from REA building, all that was a vacant lot. And also along there where the senior citizens--

Hibbs: Uh huh. That was a big field.

Gross: Yeah. Well, I remember seeing this guy one night, and they tell me that it was people looking for, of course, I didn't know it that night. I was at some tent show. And they said if they had found him, they were going to kill him because they had been paying him off and you know, he had turned them in.

Hibbs: Turned them in.

Gross: And I think he did get caught, 34:00beat up, maybe, a couple of times. And almost killed and all that.

Hibbs: Looks like he would be, somebody else could have turned him in and they'd never know it. But they'd assumed this guy did, because he said he knew all about, and threatened. That's when your mouth got you in trouble.

Gross: That's true.

Hibbs: That way. Did anybody, somebody's been trying to tell me, and of course they don't mention any names, that there was a pretty violent man in town who was going to get caught. He had a still or bootleg or something. And someone else took the blame for him and went to prison. And while he was in prison, the first man supported the prisoner's family while he was gone. Do you think anything like that might have happened? Or could have happened?

Gross: I would think it was possible, because it was the big guy who usually got out of it, and then somebody under them took the fall. 35:00Hibbs: Took the fall. Mm hmm.

Gross: So I imagined they paid dearly for it, but still, that was a lot better than going to prison.

Hibbs: Yeah. Of course, we were in a wet county before Prohibition, a wet county after Prohibition. There were lots of dry counties around us. Do you think being a dry county actually helped the situation in terms of alcohol consumption? Or did just making it harder to get cause more problems?

Gross: According to my thinking, I believe a dry county caused more problems. Yeah. It didn't keep it out. I'd say there was just as much moonshine in dry counties as was in wet counties. And probably more expensive in the dry counties, but it was there.

Hibbs: When your distillery started back up, Mr. JTS Brown, was that all local money? Or do you think, was there any investment from out of town?

Gross: Well, I was pretty close to Mr. Brown. It was supposedly owned by Mr. Brown. Creo Brown, Jr., and his wife. And 36:00personally, I think they did own it. But I mean, I--

Hibbs: Well, we were discussing earlier about money. You know, that it took some outside money because all the distilleries had to have so much work done. They'd been sitting there ten years, at least.

Gross: Well, I feel confident they had to get additional money somewhere before, I don't know. But I doubt very much that taking someone else in there at the start, and I know whatever they decided to do-- when we first started bottling, we started bottling whiskey when it was two and a half years old. And of course, you know, they planned it to where when it was two and a half years old, you had to bottle it (?) facilities, filtering operations, all that ready to go. And of course we were small in, you know, the entire operation 37:00was small. But it was a complete operation. And when we first started bottling, Mr. and Mrs. Brown ran the bottling.

Hibbs: Oh, a lot of--

Gross: And I lived down on South Third Street, me and my family. And after I left work in the afternoon, Mr. Brown also was his own salesman. You know, all distilleries, I'd say, have salesmen, even back in those days. But he didn't have a salesman. He was his own salesman. He'd go to Lexington, Louisville, Chicago, Little Rock, Arkansas, wherever we had accounts. Every so often he would go and service those accounts himself. And something, if something came up after I had left 38:00the distillery, maybe as late as nine o'clock at night, Mr. and Mrs. Brown have come to my house with a worksheet of how many cases of quarts, fifths, pints, half pints, and so forth need to be bottled the next day, and who they were to be shipped to and all that. And when I'd get to work the next morning, they'd be gone, and then I would run the bottling room until they got back.

Hibbs: Got back. Yeah.

Gross: I did, Mr. Brown could do anything that was to be done in a distillery. Well now, he couldn't repair anything, but he could do anything from (firing?) the bottler to running the (beer still?). And making the whiskey. He's the one that taught me the distilling, you know, after the (?) make the whiskey. See, the last eight years we distilled at Early Times, well, 39:00I did the distilling. After he got, well, I'd say, so, he sold the distillery back maybe like in the '40s, I believe, the first time. And he did real, real well on it. And after then, of course, he had his parents' home in Anchorage. And it was huge. And he always had a desire to move back to Anchorage. So in 1941, he came to me and talked to me about, at that time, I was strictly in charge of the warehouse and dumping and bottling, you know, when (Ness?) was there, I was in charge of bottling. And he wanted me to take over the distillery. Well they had some men in the distillery that 40:00was hard to get along with. And the people I worked with, well, it was just like one big family. Yeah. We just got along fine. When I had to run the bottling room, well, I never did have but one lady that I believe would say they didn't really like me. And today, if I meet (?), some of them will holler at me, and I haven't even seen them. And anyway, well, I wouldn't take it. And then the next year, the times have start to (?). Well, he was down sick in bed. And he sent for me. And I went to his bedroom and then he talked to me for about three hours. And he talked me into, he offered me a bonus at the end of the year. And then at the middle of the year, if we had a good year, he'd give me another one. And of course I would get more time. And then at that time, I was strictly working by the hour. 41:00And then the chance of getting on straight time and all this. So I took it. And the last eight years, well, really, I was in charge. He went to Florida. He might have come back one time during the winter.

Hibbs: Yeah. Well that, I was going to ask you about the making of whiskey during the war. Did you make any alcohol for the government?

Gross: We made, yes, we did.

Hibbs: How did that--

Gross: What we did, Dixie, you know, to make the finished alcohol, you had to put in a special (column?). But a lot of distilleries didn't do this. They made what they call high wine. And then it was shipped to the place that had the alcohol columns, and it was, you know, finished there. Now really, they called what we made alcohol, but really, it was high wine. It had to be re-distilled. During the war, well, that was 42:00when I first, in other words, when I took this plant over, well, I moved out of Early Times. They furnished me a house and a telephone. And of course it was a big farm there. And they gave me milk.

Hibbs: Right. Sounds good.

Gross: And they, and so, but during the war, well, I worked all hours, because we had storage tanks. And of course everybody was making high wine or alcohol in this area. And I remember Pat Fitzgibbon, do you ever hear of Pat Fitzgibbon? He was the trucker. He had big tank trucks. He lived over where Woodrow Hahn's wife lived at one time. That's where I remember him living there. And anyway, well, different one, (Rodney? Cartridge?), 43:00I believe, company, had the trailer trucks, you know. They called them (puff train?). And like, for instance, they were coming to your plant, your tanks were all full. Well, they would come to, say maybe my plant and drop a (puff???) you weighed it, and that's where you figured your gallon. And then they'd come to your plant. And the guard has come to my house like 1:30 or 2:30 in the morning and knock on my door and say, "The alcohol truck's in." And I'd get up and go up there and load the truck. And on top of that, though, was made so inconvenient. See, the government had the keys to everything.

Hibbs: Oh, yes.

Gross: And I would have to call the governor's man here in town, wait for him to get up and dress and drive out to Early Times. And then he would have to figure the gallons, and so would I, 44:00for the company. And a lot of weeks, back to back, I worked over a 100-hour week. And now if a guy works an hour overtime, he thinks it's murder.

Hibbs: He should be paid double, right.

Gross: That's right. He thinks he's going to die.

Hibbs: Did you have any problem getting help during the war for the distilleries? Was that a problem?

Gross: It was a problem. And what JTS Brown did, they ran a school for the other distilleries. See, we were small, as I indicated earlier. So we didn't pay as much as Tom Moore, Heaven Hill--

Hibbs: Fairfield, or whatever.

Gross: TW Samuels and whatever. Yeah, Fairfield there at the railroad. They would come to JTS Brown and I would teach them wherever they start working, well they learn there. As soon as they learn 45:00how to do something, they'd go to a plant where they could make more money. Which I don't blame them. But it was really hard on me. I went to Mr. Brown several times, pleaded with him for a raise for my help. Because I told him, "All in the world I'm doing is just running a school for the rest of the distilleries."

Hibbs: That's right. That's right. We're hoping to get Thompson on an interview. We haven't gotten him down yet.

Gross: What he did, he offered me a job. You know, he didn't persuade. I remember I said, well, he asked me what I was making and I told him. And he said, "Well, would you like, we'd like for you to work for us." And I said, "Well, they furnished me a house and telephone and milk." He said, "We can furnish your house, telephone and milk, too." I remember him telling me that.

Hibbs: Oh, my. But, well, I know a lot of things going on here. You know, people, it seems like a lot of people stay in Bardstown. They either grow up here or they come 46:00here and get their roots down pretty deep and stay.

Gross: It's quite a few people come here and retire.

Hibbs: Retire.

Gross: That's right.

Hibbs: And we must have, of course there were people you named that came in after Prohibition was over that invested in the distilleries. And then of course there's a lot of names no longer here. But I know that Heaven Hill, their owners, that's when they started their distillery up was after Prohibition. And then Mr. Samuels, where he was a distiller here before, but I understood he had to bring in some money to try to get his thing going again.

Gross: Sure.

Hibbs: You can't leave any factory still for thirteen years and it not deteriorate.

Gross: Deteriorate. That's true.

Hibbs: Did any of them sell the equipment out of distilleries? Was there any market for that?

Gross: I don't know, but at Early Times, as I indicated in the beginning, the only thing left there was one warehouse.

Hibbs: One warehouse.

Gross: One of the big storage houses. And the rest of the plant 47:00and the distillery, bottling department and all, was done away with. Now what happened to the equipment and all that, I imagine they've gotten some sale for it.

Hibbs: Now I know when you wait around, thirteen years is a long time to wait to start back up.

Gross: It sure is.

Hibbs: Did the distilleries have cattle operations at most of them? or feeding operations for the slop and things?

Gross: You mean after Prohibition?

Hibbs: Well, before, after.

Gross: Before, I wouldn't know. But since Prohibition, yeah, a lot. In this area, they did. I know JTS Brown, that was a profitable operation. You know Mr. (Padgett?) used to sell the slop down here to Tom Moore. And of course I'm told that's where he got his start. And I know at JTS Brown, well of course Mr. Brown, he wasn't a Jew, but I would pit him against any Jew when it came to making 48:00money. That's true. I mean, I'm sincere.

Hibbs: Yeah.

Gross: I learned a lot from him.

Hibbs: He was thinking of all the angles, huh?

Gross: When it comes to managing and like that. And he fed cattle, and then he also sold, you know, he had certain customers he sold slop to. So he was making it on both ends.

Hibbs: Both ends. Yeah. Well, if you make money off of your waste, and that's basically what slop was.

Gross: That's right. Yeah.

Hibbs: Then you can wait that out. Because those years you're waiting for that whiskey to age and you sell it, you've got to do something there, too.

Gross: That's right.

Hibbs: The cattle, I'm trying to think about. Now did they have a separate farm set up? I mean, the manager of the farm? Or they just fed the cattle and took care of them?

Gross: Yes, they had, that was a separate operation. Now how they handled it book-wise, I don't know. I would say it was probably record-wise, too. But they had, the distillery crew 49:00where I worked, we didn't have much to do with cattle and all that.

Hibbs: The government people, during Prohibition, they didn't have anybody at the distillery when you were bottling, or when you were bottling medicinal whiskey, was there a government agent? A storekeeper/gager or anything?

Gross: I couldn't answer that. I remember them bottling, but I never did--

Hibbs: Know if anybody--

Gross: Never was asked that before. And really never did think about it. But after Prohibition, well, the government carried the keys to everything. Well now, if you were bottling it out of (barn?), you had your key. But even when you were bottling (in barn?), well, you couldn't get in your wholesale liquor deals room or your bottling department or your dumping department or nothing. You had to get the government man to unlock and let you in. Even though you'd paid 50:00the tax (?) and everything. When we first started bottling, Dixie, the tax on whiskey, the federal tax, I believe, was $2.25 a gallon. I don't know what it is today.

Hibbs: Twelve-fifty.

Gross: Okay.

Hibbs: Twelve-fifty.

Gross: During the Korean War, I remember they put an extra two dollars and something on it. And they say it was just for the duration of the Korean War. But I knew then they'd never take it off. And I mean, I don't know how many times, to get the stamps, then you'd put a stamp on each barrel. And you have a stencil. And you cancel the stamp and you to get this stamp, to pay for these stamps, you would have to get a third certified check. And locally you could pick these stamps up 51:00at the post office, where the library is now, and federal people had an office upstairs. And you'd take all your paperwork and your certified check and get the stamps up there. And then you'd go back and tack the stamp on your barrel, and shellac over it. And then cancel it. then roll it down to your dump room, and cut it right off.

Hibbs: Oh, my-- I mean, like within an hour or something, huh?

Gross: Well, you do it, it was a continuous operation. If you was in a hurry before you went (?), yeah, you'd put on the warehouse, shellac over it, cancel it, and roll it right down, haul it right down to your dump room and take your stamp off of it. 52:00Hibbs: Well at least they had a certified check. They knew that wasn't going to bounce.

Gross: Yes. That's right. You'd have to have a certified check. Farmers (?), we did business. Farmers Bank was right there where (Luckett?) is now. So that was handy.

Hibbs: Right across the street. Excuse me. I've been taking antihistamines, that's why. The weather-- William, I have enjoyed this trip back into early distilling and medium distilling. There's a lot of things about it I don't think most people know. And then all the different-- something did come to mind a while ago when we were talking about you doing all of the distilling, or all the process. Doesn't each distillery have their own strain of yeast? Do they grow their own yeast? Or how does that work? How did JTS Brown do it?

Gross: I can't, I can't answer that. When I first started doing the distilling, well, we had copper jugs, 53:00what they call, an (indoor?) jug is what they call jug yeast. It was already some yeast in there. And way I did, when this yeast got fairly old, or when my production begin to fall back, well I would make me a new starter and go from there. And from this jug yeast, you made what you call a (dony?). And you would activate it with the jug yeast. And then this (dony?) would be a starter in your mash that you had in your yeast. This (dony?) started it fermenting. And then the yeast started your big fermenter out in the fermenter room. That's the way we did it. Now all I know about, you know, distilling, is the way JTS Brown did it.

Hibbs: Well, you started out with a strain of yeast that you just kept continuing, though. Basically you kept it, from that yeast jug, and then kind of reactivated 54:00 it.

Gross: That's right. If my production dropped down-- or I didn't wait for it to drop.

Hibbs: You kind of knew how long it would go.

Gross: Yeah. Every so often I would make me a new starter. And I would give what was left to the guys when they'd get off of work. It was potent. It would make you drunk right now. I remember one of those guys that worked in the warehouse, he came by then. He lived across the field, not too far. And I told him, I said, he never had drinked any before. I said, "(?) be careful of that little drink." I said, "I'm going to pour it out. I don't mind what you drink, but it will make you intoxicated if you're not careful." And when he came to work the next day, I was surprised. He told me what time he got home. He said he got about halfway home and he just, you know, he said just (?) and he didn't have any idea 55:00that that stuff could be that potent.

Hibbs: So he got tight on the jug yeast.

Gross: The jug yeast.

Hibbs: Jug yeast. Okay.

Gross: See when I made that new batch, what was left I would just pour it out. And it had a, I liked the taste of jug yeast, what we made, better than I do beer. I don't like the taste of beer. And I didn't like jug yeast that well, but I could (?) Hibbs: It had more to it, huh?

Gross: Yeah.

Hibbs: Well, I want to thank you, William, for all your memories there. I think this is about the end of our tape.

Gross: Well, you're certainly--