Oral History Interview with Phil Crume McKay

[Begin Interview] Hibbs: This is an interview with Phil McKay. Dixie Hibbs for the Kentucky Oral History Commission. Name of our project is Prohibition and its Effects on Nelson County. We conducted the interview in Bardstown, Nelson County, Kentucky, on South Third Street, on the September the twenty-sixth, 1988. Phil, would you tell me your name and when you were born, and who your parents were, and things about yourself?

Phil C. McKay. I'm seventy-eight years old, and born September 9, 1910.

Hibbs: What were your parents' names?

McKay: Carl and Margaret. Carl McKay and Margaret.

Hibbs: Margaret McClure, was it?

McKay: No, she was Margaret Crume.

Hibbs: Margaret Crume. I'm sorry. Okay, Margaret Crume.

McKay: Margaret Crume.

Hibbs: And you grew up in Bardstown, then? You lived there?

McKay: Bardstown or close to it. Not out of the county.

Hibbs: Prohibition 1:00was the period 1920 to 1933, and we're trying to get a feel about what was going on here in the county, and what effects it had on the county. And you remember Prohibition?

McKay: Yeah. A lot of whiskey hauled from Nelson County into Louisville. A lot of rum runners and everything.

Hibbs: Did you know any of them? Or you just heard about it?

McKay: No. Just a-- [someone else whispering] No.

Hibbs: No, you didn't do any (?) Well, it was, it was well known in the community that this went on.

McKay: Oh, yes.

Hibbs: Or that, were the legal officials paid off? Or they just turned their heads?

McKay: I don't know what happened. I don't know what, 2:00Wakefield was a main officer, Prohibition enforcement and everything. I don't know, I heard that he, if you knew him, a lot of them said they could get by all right, stuff like that.

Hibbs: In other words, it was up to him whether you were picked up or not.

McKay: Yeah.

Hibbs: Well the, did you ever work in a distillery?

McKay: Uh uh.

Hibbs: What type of business were you in? Or were you in school?

McKay: I was, I graduated from Bardstown High School in 1929. June, '29.

Hibbs: So your teenage years, really, or your young years when you remember 3:00(?) McKay: And of course it was, well, I don't know, a bunch of whiskey then was, you could buy from bootleggers and things like that.

Hibbs: We're talking about, of course, the distilleries were all making whiskey.

When the closed the distilleries, the people were out of work. Did you know people that used to work in the distilleries were working in something else? Did they go back on the farms? Or did they move out of town?

McKay: Well, a lot of them moved out of town. Moved to Louisville. Some went to Detroit. Things like that.

Hibbs: What do you think they did in Detroit?

McKay: Worked in automobile factory.

Hibbs: Oh, automobile. Okay. I thought you, okay, that they didn't take the distilling knowledge up there.

McKay: Oh, one of the, they all had to 4:00(stop?) making whiskey Hibbs: Too easy, huh?

McKay: Yeah.

Hibbs: Well, see, 1920, as I said, when it started, everybody knew it was going to come about. Didn't look like. Do you think that the people thought that it should? Was there an attitude in town that this was a good move or a bad move? Or do you ever remember any of that?

McKay: I don't remember whatever they ever said about things like that.

Hibbs: What did the ministers, the ministers ever preach for or against it?

McKay: No. I never, never heard them ever say anything about it. No.

Hibbs: Somebody told a story, not on the tape, another story about one of the members of a Baptist church, big strong Baptist member having to hide his moonshine in the baptismal fountain. Did you ever hear that story?

McKay: No, I never heard anything like that. 5:00Hibbs: Well, good. Maybe it's just a story. I won't quote any names about that.

When you say it was easy to get whiskey, was it used every time you had entertainment? I mean, you talk about going to the sweet shop and things. Did they have--

McKay: It was, whiskey, several people sold whiskey. Bootleg whiskey and stuff like that. (?) they get you a pint of whiskey.

Hibbs: Take it with you.

McKay: Take it with you, or have it with you.

Hibbs: Did they, the law enforcement, then, if you didn't be as blatant about it, then they didn't arrest you for drinking? Or is it--

McKay: No, the law enforcement, all they do is raid the (drunks?) Hibbs: Drunks, okay.

McKay: But they never bothered anybody about whiskey. (?) 6:00people had whiskey.

Hibbs: Do you ever, of course, locally, since you could get whiskey so easily, maybe doctors didn't have to give out prescriptions. But the only legal way to possess whiskey was to get a medicinal prescription. And the doctors had to sign those. Did you ever know anybody that had any of those? Did you ever see any of those?

McKay: I reckon I seen one, but I've forgotten what they were. I know you had to sign some papers if you got it, I think.

Hibbs: At the drugstore?

McKay: Yeah, wherever you bought it.

Hibbs: What kind of business was your father in at this time?

McKay: He worked for the state highway department.

Hibbs: Was it a political appointment, or was he a construction man?

McKay: It was a political 7:00appointment, I reckon. He'd been working for them. That's the reason we left the farm out there. He was working for the state. Of course it was a political job (he needed?), (?) and then when, after he got into it and everything, then when the election came off of (?) and everything else and Mr. (?), he never did like Daddy anyway, so he just fired him.

Hibbs: Are you talking about Mr. Jonathan (Denny?) He, Mr. Jonathan, had a say.

McKay: Yeah, he was a king bee then. He was the head man.

Hibbs: What about, 8:00of course locally, we know whiskey was easy to get. What about the counties around us? Do you know if anybody ever came over here from other counties that wouldn't have distilleries that--

McKay: Oh, no. I never did know any of that.

Hibbs: But we, locally people took it to Louisville, right? You said they were taking it into Louisville to sell.

McKay: Yeah, that's what they did. And all the way from here to Louisville. Uncle Lud was the jailer then, and that's about all he had in the jail was whiskey runners.

Hibbs: Bootleggers and whiskey runners.

McKay: Bootleggers (?) Hibbs: Did he keep them long? Or did they get out with a fine?

McKay: Oh, they just had to be in there so long. He just kept them.

Hibbs: Okay. Did the county official like the judge and the jailer, like you mentioned, they just accepted the fact that they were going to handle this problem? Or 9:00they didn't try to cut down on it or anything? Because it went on for long. Thirteen years is a long time to have to deal with that.

McKay: Oh, I reckoned it happened. They'd take, sometimes they'd raid a still back here in the county someplace, they'd raid a still and tell you caught so and so with a still. And then maybe go around another month or two, and there'd be another one.

Hibbs: Did they ever get sent to the penitentiary?

McKay: Oh, yeah.

Hibbs: And they did that locally, or in Atlanta?

McKay: They'd go to Atlanta.

Hibbs: Go to Atlanta. That's the federal penitentiary.

McKay: Uh huh.

Hibbs: But that was for making whiskey, right? Somebody told me, you know, all this is tales you hear, but someone made some reference about a man taking the fall, in other words, he took the blame for making whiskey for somebody else. 10:00And he was sent off to prison, and the person who actually did it supported his children and his wife while he was in prison.

McKay: I never did hear of anything like that.

Hibbs: Okay. Here's another story that I don't have any facts for. What about the banks and things? You know, when you fool with the economy, well, the banks usually lose pretty quickly. Was there a lot of foreclosures for people? Was money hard to get?

McKay: Well, it was always, there wasn't much money scattered around. Of course a lot of the fellows that really were in the know and everything made a lot of money with whiskey back then.

Hibbs: Knowing who to sell it to?

McKay: What to do and everything. Knowing all the ropes and everything.

Hibbs: Do you think that Kentucky, 11:00were there any newspaper articles or any talk about, when they were trying to rescind Prohibition in the early, I guess '32, '33 was when it was over, were there any campaigns to get Kentuckians to (?) or any feeling about changing this great experiment they talk about?

McKay: I don't remember anything about that much.

Hibbs: Do you remember voting in that election? To rescind the Prohibition? That would be '32, probably.

McKay: I don't remember voting any, when it was voted back or anything. I don't remember it was done, just remember that Roosevelt was elected and (thing had carried?) is all I remember.

Hibbs: He was the one who actually was the (?) of it. Yeah. Well, do you think it was a good idea? Was it a failure? Or did it succeed what it was supposed to do?

McKay: Well I think the whiskey coming back 12:00was a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. Prohibition was always just a joke, anyhow.

Hibbs: That's an interesting thing to say. A joke in terms of really being enforced, huh?

McKay: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of money made.

Hibbs: And no government taxes made on it, either, right? You couldn't claim it in terms of your taxes, then they couldn't get any tax for the whiskey. What about, did you ever hear any stories about the people who owned the distilleries? They tell me that when they went and opened them up in '33, all that whiskey evaporated from the warehouses.

McKay: Well I stayed in town one night with Uncle Lud, who was the jailer there.

That's when Tom Moore distillery burnt down there.

Hibbs: Ah. Okay.

McKay: And we went down there to the fires, and the whiskey was running down the hills 13:00and down the creek.

Hibbs: Did somebody set it on fire? Or did it just happen?

McKay: They never did know whether it was set on fire or not. A lot of them thought it was set on fire. But there was never any--

Hibbs: Proof of that.

McKay: --proof about it.

Hibbs: Was that toward the end of Prohibition? Or was it, do you know about what--

McKay: That was, no, that was right in the middle of Prohibition.

Hibbs: About how old were you? We can figure out from there.

McKay: I was about, when that burned, I don't know when it burned, I reckon it burned around '25. I was about fifteen years old.

Hibbs: Yeah, that would be about right. Well, did you ever hang around any of the barber shops? Or what were the places people hung around and talked?

McKay: Well, up there at (?) and sweet shop. Whatever that (?) loafed around.

Hibbs: Loafed around. 14:00Is that where people cut their deals?

McKay: No, no. Deals were cut, I don't know how they did it. But anyhow, there was a big, Charlie Lawrence, he was supposed to have been, supposed to have been a rum runner, they call him, hauling whiskey to Louisville. He was one (?) They just hauled it from Bardstown to Louisville. Of course, they had dumping places down there for it.

Hibbs: The new contacts would get rid of it.

McKay: Yeah.

Hibbs: Well, let's see. Was this moonshine they were hauling, or do you think it--

McKay: Yeah. Moonshine.

Hibbs: It was moonshine. Okay. Did you ever know anybody 15:00from any of the big cities coming in here, looking for whiskey?

McKay: Oh, I never did know any of them.

Hibbs: Yeah. Didn't see them. What about any crimes? Were there any violent crimes that took place? I mean, somebody trying to steal whiskey from another rum runner, or anything like that?

McKay: No. Some of that stuff went on all the time. And I don't remember who they were or anything, but somebody would say, "Well, (?) lost his car to some guy that held him up and took his car and whiskey and everything."

Hibbs: He couldn't complain to the police because he wasn't supposed to have it.

McKay: That's right.

Hibbs: Okay. Did you ever hear of any women running whiskey?

McKay: No, I never did hear.

Hibbs: Hear that?

McKay: No.

Hibbs: Did they carry guns when they ran whiskey?

McKay: I don't know whether 16:00they did or not.

Hibbs: What about, who were the big powers in Bardstown at that time? People that, besides, you mentioned Ben Johnson. He was a power in the state.

McKay: He was a state--

Hibbs: State power. Did he drink?

McKay: No.

Hibbs: No, he didn't drink. Okay. Who was your judge and your mayor and things like that? Do you remember? Different ones?

McKay: I forget that time now who, Judge Young was one judge.

Hibbs: Was Rapier?

McKay: Huh? Warden Young.

Hibbs: Was there a Rapier who was a judge?

McKay: Well, that was before my time.

Hibbs: Okay. What about Brown? Was he judge at the time?

Nancy: Oh, yeah.

Hibbs: Ed Brown?

McKay: I don't know whether he was judge then or not.

Hibbs: Wallace Brown?

McKay: But he probably 17:00was part of it.

Hibbs: He was a, wasn't he kind of strict? I don't, I was trying to remember, I don't know too much about it.

McKay: Well, I reckon he was.

Hibbs: I didn't know whether that would have made any difference.

Nancy?: (Ed Freeman's????) McKay: Matter of fact person.

Hibbs: Then the mayor would have been, it wasn't Cisco, was it? No.

McKay: He was mayor for a long time. And then about that time is when they changed it up and they started having--

Nancy?: Conway (?) McKay: Conway was a mayor.

Nancy?: (Demery????) McKay: And Demery was mayor.

Nancy?: Demery followed him, and then he resigned from--

Hibbs: I've forgotten when Cisco and (?) changed. I should know that.

Nancy?: I remember when I was a kid, he was mayor (?) I believe. 18:00I wasn't much interested in politics.

Hibbs: Well I think he was, he began being mayor in 19, I mean 1896 or something like that. Late '90s.

Nancy?: Now, (?) Hibbs: Or maybe it was 1900. So this is '20s we're talking about. It would be twenty years.

Nancy?: I think he was still mayor in the '20s.

McKay: He was mayor a long time.

Hibbs: He ran a carriage factory.

McKay: Yeah.

Hibbs: And tombstones. Did they also make tombstones at that carriage factory?

McKay: They didn't make them, but they sold them.

Hibbs: Okay. Sold them there.

Nancy?: Ask Phil if he knows anything about that leveling factory.

Hibbs: Oh, yeah. We had a question earlier about the level. Mr. Guthrie and (Stile?) in a newspaper article, little clipping, they talked about they went into partnership and they were going to have this factory that made levels. You know, like you use for carpentry to see if--? It was a new type of level. A new design. And it was going to be made here in Bardstown. And the newspaper article went on about how this would provide jobs for people. And 19:00the economy was down so much because of Prohibition.

McKay: Yeah.

Hibbs: Do you ever remember? It was up on the (Beal?) Street, on the corner of Beal and Fourth Street.

McKay: I don't remember anything about it.

Nancy?: Will owned all that property up there.

Hibbs: Will did? Stiles? Okay.

Nancy: (?) in back. He built little houses down on the (sheer?) Hibbs: Well I bet that's why they put the factory there, because he already owned the property. Because there weren't any houses up there in that area. That was all field, I think.

Nancy?: (?) McKay: Will died. He was a, he was sharp on all that stuff. It he'd have lived, there ain't no telling how much money he'd have been worth. He just--

Hibbs: Somebody else called him a trader. Is that what you think of him, as a trader?

McKay: Trader (to all?) Just anything like that. He just, well in fact 20:00I was one of those that worked for him. The next spring, when he died, he asked me to come to work for him. He'd been trying to get me for a couple of years out there in the country and (?) And when he died, well, I had one of his bluff sheep there and I told Jack about it. I said, "I have one of his sheep down here." So he had me to put the sheep on a truck come down to (Rosemund?) morning. And they'd put him on, take him into the stockyards. They took him into, I put him on the truck and they took him on into the stockyard.

Hibbs: Were 21:00you then a farmer?

McKay: I was farming.

Hibbs: Well, Mr. Stiles seems to be connected with farming a lot.

McKay: Oh, he was connected up with a lot of people in farming. He was always, a lot of people in that time and everything, some people say well, Will Stiles was such a bad person. But all I had with him was just all right. It was just, he had good ideas about things.

Hibbs: Did he loan money to people, or help them out?

McKay: Oh, I think he did.

Hibbs: Then after Prohibition was over, and they opened up the distilleries, do you remember what distilleries started up.

McKay: Well, down there where Barton is now, that distillery opened up. I worked down there, 22:00oh, I don't know, about tow years, I reckon.

Hibbs: Was it Tom Barton's then? Or was it--

McKay: Yeah, it wasn't Tom Barton then. It was, what did they call it?

Hibbs: It wasn't Mattingly Moore.

McKay: No. I forgot what they called it.

Hibbs: Well, it might come back.

McKay: It was same one they use now. It changed hands and everything. (Tour and Coppin?) were from Detroit. They bought it and they ran it for several years.

Hibbs: Did they buy it after Prohibition? Or did they buy it during?

McKay: Yeah, they bought it afterwards.

Hibbs: Afterwards? Mm hmm. Bought it from the Moores?

McKay: No, it didn't belong to the Moores.

Nancy: Will Stiles and (Hinkle?) and (?) own it at one time?

McKay: I don't know whether they did or not.

Nancy: I think (?) during Prohibition.

Hibbs: Stiles, (Hinkle and Willis?), possibly.

Nancy: I think so.

Hibbs: What about the, 23:00okay, what we now call Barton's was a distillery on the old Nashville Road. What about, Heaven Hill was later, wasn't it? How much later?

McKay: It wasn't too much later. I think it was one of the first ones that started.

Hibbs: Were there any other partners besides the Shapiros? Or did they just have it --

McKay: No. I never, oh, I reckon they had some, but I don't remember who they were or anything.

Hibbs: But there were several brothers, I think.

McKay: Oh, yeah. Mm hmm.

Hibbs: Walker, not Walker, what's the one, Withrow? The distillery, is it (Shawhan?) or the Withrow?

McKay: That's out at (Shawhan?) Hibbs: Did that open up then? Or did that--

McKay: When I was, just a little bit later, one of them had started. 24:00Nancy: (?) was (?) Charlie (?) McKay: I don't know. It must have been (Shawhan?), I reckon.

Hibbs: Okay. Now you mentioned him earlier. Out there at Early Times? Or he wasn't involved in Early Times, he just was a visitor?

Nancy: Who?

Hibbs: Charlie Newman.

Nancy: Oh, he wasn't involved in Early Times. He was the (?) Hibbs: He was the (?) at (Wakeland?). Okay. I'm sorry.

Nancy: He (?) Hibbs: All right. Was that in the '30s, then, when he came?

McKay: He was from New York.

Hibbs: New York. Okay. Charlie Newman was New York, then he was an investor involved with (Shawhan?), you think.

McKay: I don't remember who the (Shawhans?) wanted to--

Nancy: He (?) McKay: Mr. (Dial?) had something to do with it, I think.

Nancy: Yeah, (Roland and Bob?) I don't know where he found out about him or--

Hibbs: Let's see. The distilleries started back up, and we're still in the Depression era, because that lasted till probably the first world, I mean the second world war. (?) the Depression, it was all through 25:00the '30s.

McKay: Oh, yeah.

Hibbs: The WPA work projects and things, did you know anybody who was working on any of that? You know, they built roads. They built the (fill?) that went out there on--

McKay: I don't know. I worked on one of them. It was out there where the road goes back there.

Hibbs: Off of 62? Or off of 150?

McKay: Off of 150 there. (?) Road Hibbs: (?) Road. All right.

McKay: I worked on that one.

Hibbs: Well, when they started the distilleries up, it took some of the work force.

But still, there were a lot of people out of work.

McKay: Oh, yeah.

Hibbs: How did they, you know, I don't think I've ever asked this. How did they transport that whiskey when you bottle, you know, you made whiskey and put it in the barrels 26:00and put it in the warehouse. And then you bottle it. And then did they use trucks, or did they use a train to ship it? You know, to markets all over the United States.

McKay: I don't know anything about--

Hibbs: You don't remember them loading it on the train or anything like that?

McKay: No, I don't remember them loading nothing.

Nancy: (Fairfield ?) Hibbs: Now Fairfield was a new distillery, too. Well, no. Well, McKenna was at Fairfield.

Nancy: No, I know that, but Fairfield (?) Hibbs: Oh, okay. I don't mean--

Nancy: And they also, they didn't use trucks when they started making alcohol for the government. See, during the war, they made alcohol.

Hibbs: Well, see, I'm not familiar with that at all.

Nancy: You didn't know about that? Oh, yeah, that's where (?) got his.

Hibbs: Okay. Okay. So we're talking, set up the distilleries, making whiskey, putting it in a warehouse after Prohibition. Then they would ship it by truck or 27:00by train, depending on where the distillery was. Mostly trains (?) And then, during the second world war, these same distilleries made alcohol for the government.

Nancy: They were required by the government.

Hibbs: I didn't realize that at all. Okay. So really, the distilleries have played a big part in our whole scheme of things here. They weren't something that just was an additional industry. Did we use local grain, do you know? Or did the farmers sell their grain to the distilleries?

McKay: I don't know whether they did or not. I don't remember, don't remember anything particular about that. There was one time, of course, when Nelson County was just, you know, the whiskey capital of the United States. I forgot what it was, but there was a, there was fourteen or sixteen distilleries in this county.

Hibbs: This is before Prohibition or afterwards?

Nancy: Before.

Hibbs: Before Prohibition. Okay.

McKay: And so that's about all I know about that. I don't remember who they were, anything else.

Hibbs: Just every direction, huh?

McKay: Yeah. (?) 28:00 anything.

Hibbs: Did you ever hear any sermons, I asked that, I think, before, in the church?

Did they ever preach against drinking? Or preach against--

McKay: No, I never did.

Hibbs: They had temperance leagues. I know that women were joining temperance leagues.

McKay: Yeah. But I never did hear preachers ever say anything about whiskey or anything. Of course, I don't know how they felt about it or anything.

Hibbs: In the period you were going to school, of course, you came in from out in the county? Or you lived in town then?

McKay: Well, about that time, well, we moved in town just about the time I, I went to school, I stayed with Mr. and Mrs. Dugall up there, 29:00I forget what street it is, on Main Street and something else up there. I stayed with them when I was going in the eighth grade. And then that summer was when decided to move to town, Mother and Daddy, they decided to move to town then. [End Side A. Begin Side B.] Hibbs: We were just talking about you moving into town in the early '20s, from the farm. Then later you went back to the farm, I think you mentioned. So you were going to school, living in town and going to school, during Prohibition. Were there any kind of notorious people? As a school child, or a school student, I'm sure there was gossip about this one or that one. 30:00Did you have anybody in the community that they considered somebody you made fun of, or notorious, or known that they made their living on rum running, or trying to outdo the law, or anything like that?

McKay: I remember there was several people that, you know, fooled with whiskey then, run it to Louisville and things like that. There were a lot of them doing that. And back in Prohibition.

Hibbs: Did anybody ever use a horse to run it around?

McKay: No. It was all cars.

Hibbs: All cars.

McKay: Of course I reckon back out there in the country in the (?) and things back there, well they just 31:00had to use horses.

Hibbs: Was the moonshine made from grain? Or make it from sugar, or what?

McKay: A lot of it was (pure?), of course there was corn whiskey then, and sugar whiskey. And of course the corn whiskey was the one they liked. A lot of them didn't like the sugar whiskey, they didn't think too much of that.

Hibbs: Well, which, was one faster than the other, or easier to get supplies?

McKay: No, just the taste and everything. It just kind of burnt and stuff like that. It just wasn't as good as whiskey.

Nancy: Dixie, ask him about the brown whiskey that (?) I don't remember Dad ever having moonshine whiskey around.

Hibbs: Nancy was asking about the brown whiskey. She said she never remembered Mr. Guthrie ever having any moonshine.

Nancy: No, I knew it was moonshine, but it wasn't white.

Hibbs: It wasn't white. Okay. That was what--

McKay: Well, there was just aged moonshine they put in kegs, and stored it in houses.

Hibbs: Oh, they did store it.

McKay: Oh, yeah. 32:00They put it in kegs, they used--

Hibbs: The old barrels? Whiskey barrel?

McKay: Most of them used these twenty-five gallon kegs.

Hibbs: Okay.

McKay: They weren't too big kegs.

Nancy: Maybe that's what (?) McKay: They left it in there. Some of it had a pretty good color to it. And I think some of them didn't leave them in long enough or something. It wasn't as good. But that was, the one that made good whiskey and (?) come over there and (?), well they put it and stored it and everything else.

Hibbs: Almost like producing it for the distillery.

McKay: Yeah. They just put it through the house and everything, and let it age. I guess some of it was three or four years old. Well, most of it, I reckon, was a couple of years old. It colored up.

Hibbs: Put a little caramel in it or something, or sugar. Brown sugar?

McKay: Yeah, some of them would do anything to it.

Hibbs: Did you ever know anybody that got real sick or 33:00blind? They talked about some of it was so bad in Prohibition, not necessarily locally, but that it could blind you, it was so much alcohol or the different that way.

McKay: Oh, I reckon. Things happened to everybody back there then. And there was tales and everything about different ones, but I don't remember.

Nancy: By accident. Maybe did it on purpose.

Hibbs: Well, I know. But that's an interesting story. The tapes are all stories.

Nancy: That happened at Fairfield, my father's Fairfield.

McKay: And Heaven Hill back here, when they started up and everything back there, one of those, a goat fell in one of those vats.

Hibbs: The fermenting vats?

McKay: No, it was in the--

Nancy: The mash.

McKay: In the mash.

Hibbs: You mean it was open to the out--

Nancy: Oh, it was open. You could see it bubbling. 34:00Hibbs: I mean, a vat is like a two story tub that holds something like twenty thousand gallons or something. But you mean a goat could have got in the building and fallen in there?

McKay: Oh, yeah.

Nancy: They said that it happened. (?) fell into the, over at Fairfield distillery where they were right, I can remember going through there and they had (sain?) that they had just fished out something that day.

Hibbs: Fished out something.

Nancy: And I said god, can people drink this stuff, you know?

Hibbs: Well, but of course they were fermenting, they're going to take it back to the still and distill it. But even though--

Nancy: Yeah. But still, it's a horrible thought.

Hibbs: Even though the animals did, animals did drop into the fermenting tub, Bardstown whiskey still had a wonderful reputation.

Nancy: Yeah, it really did.

McKay: Oh, yeah.

Hibbs: And in taking it to Louisville, if they knew it came from Bardstown, they trusted that it was going to be a certain quality, or--

McKay: Well, a goat falling in didn't bother anything. He was just a dead goat, that's all that was.

Hibbs: That's all it was. All right. So that really didn't 35:00deter people from drinking, either. Okay. All right.

McKay: No.

Hibbs: I can understand that.

Nancy: Don't call it Bardstown, call it Nelson County.

Hibbs: Nelson County. My apologies. You're correct. It was Nelson County whiskey, you're right. Because some of the--

Nancy: Although Bardstown, those bars--

Hibbs: I was going to ask about, most of the moonshining, or most of the illicit distilling is the proper legal term, did that take place south of the river, or all over?

McKay: Oh, yeah. Most of it was, (?) a lot of the whiskey was made right in Bardstown.

Hibbs: (?) McKay: Right in Bardstown.

Hibbs: Well, Nancy mentioned Wickland. Do you know anything about them making whiskey in Wickland before they started (tea room?) McKay: I don't know whether they made any out there or not, but there were several of them lived out there or something that mixed up in whiskey.

Hibbs: Mixed up in it. Okay.

McKay: I don't know whether they were just, maybe a meeting place or something like what, whether they made any out there 36:00or not.

Hibbs: Okay. I think about trying to make up enough whiskey to make some money, and I think about all the problems involving getting grain and all the paraphernalia for making it. But it must have been easier than it appears to me now. Of course, you had to have a still, a proper still. And you had to have the grains, and you had to have water, and a place to get rid of mash. And then, time to wash it and all. And it, did you ever know of anybody confiscating the stills and selling them? Or cutting them up or anything like that? Did you ever hear about any of that?

McKay: Oh, yeah. That was--

Nancy: (?) McKay: They did that all the time when they raided, the Prohibition officer raided the place and raided the still, well they just tear it up and cut it up and everything like that.

Hibbs: Were 37:00they federal officers, or were they local officers?

McKay: Oh, yeah. Federal officers.

Hibbs: Federal. Okay. Were there people who were known to give information to these federal officers? Did they pay for any information?

McKay: Oh, I imagine they did. I imagine they were (?) Hibbs: I don't know if they ever more or less ratted on the moonshiners or if there were any favors? What they would call it now would be turning state's evidence. I don't know whether, did that ever happen, that you know somebody got caught so he turned in some others to get a lighter sentence?

McKay: Oh, I imagine some of them did anything that was, a lot of that stuff. Of course, that was done in the courts in Louisville Hibbs: Federal courts?

McKay: Federal courts.

Hibbs: Who were the lawyers here? Did any of the lawyers go to Louisville to defend any people?

McKay: Oh, yeah. Ernest Fulton, 38:00 he--

Nancy: He'd get everybody off.

McKay: He was a lawyer.

Hibbs: Was he the one to call when you were in trouble?

McKay: Yeah, he was--

Hibbs: He was the one?

McKay: Yeah.

Hibbs: How about Mr. Halstead? Was he--

McKay: Oh, no.

Nancy: That's before.

McKay: That was before Prohibition.

Nancy: That was so long ago. He was not our generation.

Hibbs: Well, I thought he died in the '20s or something.

McKay: He did. Something like that.

Nancy: But he was old and retired.

Hibbs: You say Fulton was the one to call.

McKay: He was one of them.

Hibbs: One of them. Okay.

Nancy: (?) the lawyers that time Hibbs: See what other lawyers I can think about. What about Mr. Barlow? Was it (?) Barlow's father? Wasn't he an attorney?

Nancy: There weren't quite so many of them. Mr. Kelly.

Hibbs: Kelly, right. Was it Victor?

McKay: Yeah.

Hibbs: Victor Kelly?

Nancy: (?) wonderful judge, old Judge Kelly was a lawyer.

Hibbs: 39:00But I wonder what kind of fee you had to pay to be gotten, to be represented in federal court by Mr. Fulton or something. Did he have anybody on retainer? I mean, was he on retainer for anybody?

McKay: Oh, I don't know about that. I imagine he was.

Hibbs: Okay. He had to go that often.

McKay: Yeah.

Hibbs: Someone said something about a Mr. Greenwell. Charlie Knight Greenwell.

Was he a known runner?

McKay: Oh, he was always just kind of a, had something fool, anything kind of rough and everything, he just, all he had to fool with whiskey and (?) and everything.

Hibbs: Well do you think that Nelson County, what about the morals? Do you think that people's respect for the law, or their moral character changed, or it didn't make any difference with Prohibition?

McKay: People just, it was just a way of life. 40:00It was just one of those things, that's all that I can ever say about it.

Hibbs: Of course it was breaking the law. But it wasn't a law they respected?

McKay: No, I don't think they respected. You see, we lived out there in the country.

When this first started and everything, Daddy would see a car going down the road, Daddy says, "That's a rum running car there. That's somebody hauling whiskey to Louisville."

Hibbs: How would he know it? Would he know the person?

McKay: He just know, looking at the car or something. Just see them being loaded up and everything.

Hibbs: Oh, the back end would be down low.

McKay: Maybe (?) he'd say, "There's a rum runner."

Hibbs: Okay. That makes sense. Did they have special, were there certain cars that were faster than others that the rum runners would want?

McKay: Oh, yeah. Anything like that, 41:00those old Dodges, a lot of them.

Hibbs: Were they heavy? I mean, like a heavy car that would carry a load without dragging or breaking down?

McKay: It was, Dodge, it was a good car.

Hibbs: How much, do you remember how much whiskey would have been about the time? I mean, like a pint of whiskey, could you buy a pint for a dollar?

McKay: Oh, seemed like whiskey cost about two dollars for two and a half pints.

Hibbs: Really? That's similar to what we have now. That would be fairly expensive, wouldn't it?

McKay: Yeah.

Hibbs: Well, comparison price, it really is cheaper now than it was then.

McKay: Oh, yeah.

Hibbs: We need to close this particular thing up. To 42:00summarize, most of what we're saying, it was very evident there were lots of bootleggers or rum runners.

McKay: (?) a car, is that your car?

Nancy: (?) Hibbs: Everybody knew who was running and what was going on. And people were willing to overlook it because it was a law they didn't respect? Things like that?

McKay: I reckon.

Nancy: I don't remember (?) Hibbs: Nobody ever looked down on anybody that was running whiskey.

Nancy: I don't think so.

Hibbs: Did anybody get killed? Do you remember anything like that?

McKay: Oh, (yes?) Hibbs: Nobody got killed? Or shot up?

Nancy: A lot of people had accidents.

Hibbs: Accidents. Okay.

Nancy: You know, well, I don't know that they were deliberately killed, but they were (?) They were, you know, they got drunk and they had a wreck. I remember a lot of people that were--

Hibbs: A lot of people that were transporting rum and you were saying earlier about--

Nancy: Well, no. I'm talking about 43:00people drinking.

Hibbs: The drinking and driving sort of thing. Well, I was thinking about the--

Nancy: (?) Hibbs: Yes. The people who were actually carrying it to--

Nancy: I don't think, I don't remember hearing, but (?) But nobody, I don't think anybody in Bardstown really. (?) a holy, God fearing woman, making the best home brew.

Hibbs: The best home brew.

Nancy: That's kind of the attitude.

Hibbs: It's one of those things that--

Nancy: You know, it just, it was a stupid law.

Hibbs: Stupid law.

Nancy: Now I think maybe some of the Baptists (?), I really do. Phil, because he doesn't remember. But I remember hearing tales. And I think maybe some of the Baptists did. some ministers, anyway. But there was Mr. Jim Beam.

Hibbs: Jim Beam.

Nancy: And T.W. Samuels, who were pillars of the Baptist church.

Hibbs: And they were owners of distilleries.

Nancy: And I can remember sometime hearing about a minister who came for his rival minister, I think. And he started ranting and raving about liquor. 44:00And somebody got up and said, "Listen, this church was built with liquor money. And you better be quiet."

Hibbs: Oh, that's an interesting point. Okay.

Nancy: And so don't quote me on that, because (?) Hibbs: On that one. Okay.

Nancy: But that was, I think the Baptists particularly. I don't remember anybody (?) And of course, you know, like people are today, they rant and rave, but they drink.

Hibbs: They put up with it. They drink.

Nancy: They drink. Surreptitiously.

Hibbs: Well, I thank you, Phil, for your memories. I kind of put you on the spot real quick today. And you may think of other things. We might come back later and add to this. [End Interview.] 1989OH2.11 - McKay